See, I believe that all the mysteries of the
universe, all the answers to life's questions can be found in a Spielberg film.
I’d been afraid for all of my life. Why doesn’t
somebody just shoot me in the head? Right up
until the day I knew my life was ending. You
look bad. No, man. You smell bad. I'm pretty
fucking far from OK. Really, I feel like I'm sharing
a very— Look at my shit. I had an affair— Precious
moment with you. There are no nations. There are
no peoples. Are you threatening me, dick? You
don't approve. Fake. Well, too bad. Totally fake.
Did it seem fake— You look like a damn crackhead —
When my best friend was bitten in half in front of me. I found
The story I personally embarrassing myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything
but the little fishies. Welcome to Everything
But the Little Fishies. Welcome. I'm Evan. I'm
Mike. And today we're going to get into the filmmaker
Bernardo Berlucci, a couple of his epics, the
first being 1900. Novecento. Novecento, yes.
1976, the five -hour and 17 -minute epic. And
then after that, we'll talk about The Last Emperor,
which is his other epic from 1987. That one's
nearly three hours, but yeah. It feels short
in comparison. Feels short in comparison, yeah.
As does pretty much everything. I think 1900's
the longest one that I've seen. I mean, eliminating
miniseries and whatnot. I think it's even longer
than Until the End of the World. Yeah, I mean,
I know we've looked this up before, like what
are the longest movies? And, you know, depending
on what you qualify, you know, there are movies
that are days long and weeks long officially
and shit like that. But if you really want to
talk about just like a watchable piece of cinema
that you could theoretically do in one day, this
is probably like pushing the max. These are both
kind of in the tradition of Gone with the Wind
or something. It's that historical, epic sort
of thing. I guess The Last Emperor less so because
it's actually just a biopic. I mean, you're going
to spend half your day at the cinema with an
intermission so you can stretch your legs and
use the bathroom and all that kind of stuff.
And it's not slow cinema. It's not like a thing
where the point is the length and the slowness
or anything. It's just a conventional film that
happens to be five hours and 17 minutes. Yeah,
it's just a lot of movie. It tells a lot of story.
It does a lot of characters. It has both micro
and macro storytelling. So I guess that's just
we're getting into 1900. But specifically 1900,
I had a lot of thoughts after finishing this
movie. I spent three nights watching it. You
know, I didn't watch it in one sitting. All right,
and this was your first time. Yeah, my first
time watching it. I think the first night I did
like two hours, then I watched another two hours
the next night, and then like whatever the rest
of it the third night. And I thought it was a
really enjoyable way to watch the movie and digest
it because like the movie has a kind of three
-act system. It's very well made. And you're
right, it's not slow cinema. It moves. It's very
entertaining. It just almost is kind of three
movies. Yeah, it almost is just kind of three
movies, exactly. So you kind of start with...
And it was released as two movies, right? Originally,
the Italian version was the full version, released
in two parts, part one and part two. And then
the U .S. version was edited instead of the NC
-17 one that the full cut would have been. This
one was cut down to be an R -rated version, and
it was 243 minutes long, so under four hours
long. or about four hours long okay yeah i mean
that makes sense um so the restored version was
released in 93 with an nc -17 in the united states
got you so the u .s the five hour is an nc -17
that makes a lot of things clear because one
thing i was thinking is like i couldn't really
understand why this movie wasn't really mentioned
in the same breath as like the godfather or other
epics like the deer hunter lawrence of arabia
or something like my initial impression is like
i really like this movie i thought it was incredible
i was like tempted to give it a perfect score
after my first viewing the movie it was like
very clear i was watching magic happen on the
screen like an incredible deniro performance
an incredible uh gerard day part two performance
and whatever like really just like incredible
artists on the screen and the practicality of
it, the epicness of it, the amount of actors
and extras and real production value, money on
the screen, the length, the amount of film burned,
just like the locations. I think there's even
a pretty huge thank you note right at the beginning
to the town. It's almost like what we were talking
about with Zardoz where a production comes to
a pretty small place and kind of like... really
moves in so to speak but i don't know apparently
at the time um that he was shooting 1900 around
the corner pasolini was shooting sallow and um
apparently the crews played uh played football
against each other It was a crew -on -crew football
game. And by football, I mean obviously soccer.
That's pretty fun. That was a movie that we almost
talked about within the context of this conversation.
I think we almost paired 1900 with Salah, right?
Yeah, I was thinking about it. But anyway, what
you were saying about the release and everything,
it probably does have a lot to do with the fact
that this just got a sort of botched American
release. You know, a lot of these movies, I feel
like... Sure, I mean, same with Once Upon a Time
in America, right? Exactly. These movies have
to come up in the culture in a certain kind of
way. Why isn't this talked about like The Godfather?
No, exactly. I would say that 1900 and Once Upon
a Time in America are almost, like, edgier in
certain ways that most people can't handle. Like,
what's weird is that, like, you know... Certainly,
yeah, yeah, both. We have a way of accepting
violence in a way that... easier than other things
so people can like accept the deer hunter as
a great one even though it has like some pretty
awful disturbing violence in it that should be
gut -wrenching but like you know 1900 has like
little kid penis in it and like a lot of um i
mean semi -erect too right Semi -erect. Yeah,
like semi -erect little kid's penis. It's a little
bizarre. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and I think,
you know. Which, you know, you could just say
is naturalism, right? Like it's just sort of,
it's innocence on display. Yeah. If you look
at every single Bertolucci movie, there tends
to be this pattern, you know. Yeah. So it does,
there's something inherently perverse about.
Bertolucci. There is. He's not afraid to... His
relationship with childhood. Sure. Bertolucci,
like, I haven't seen as many of his films as
you. I'm still getting into him, and it's taken
me a while to kind of, like, appreciate him.
I can't even remember, like, what other ones
I've seen. Probably more than I think at this
point. Last Anger you really loved, I'm pretty
sure. Even more than I did. Yeah, yeah. I feel
like the only movie of his I was aware of was
Last Tango in Paris, but I eventually got around
to seeing The Conformists and The Dreamers. Which
also really pairs with this movie. you know,
very directly. The conformist does. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. And, um, I saw La Luna, which was very
uncomfortable for sure. Very kind of like, maybe
my favorite. I fucking love that movie. This
is sexuality. Like all of these very perverse.
And I understand why people either don't like
them or even have a problem with them exist.
Like, you know what I mean? Like a lot of these
movies seem to have like a pedophilic nature
or like a inappropriate age relationship or,
you know, even in La Luna's case, incest. And,
um, rape like a lot of these things are in his
movies and like but i mean but it's it's every
single type of perversion or sexuality or something
to the point where like yeah i almost like give
him a pass or it's just kind of like oh of course
he's creepy about that because he's like also
creepy about like the grass and like everything
you know what i mean like every single thing
is something that makes bertolucci horny so like
it's weird when like there's a kid on screen
but like It's less weird when it's like Gerard
Depardieu and Robert De Niro. And it's less weird
when it's Dominic Sanda and you know what I mean?
Well, you know how in 1900 there's the uncle
character who's an artist and he's like taking
those photographs of the naked boys or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It's like, I feel
like that's Bertolucci. You know, it's kind of
like this thing of like, I'm a liberal and like
I'm... I'm for the left and like the communists
and whatever, but I'm also like kind of problematically
liberal. Like my perversions and my inclinations
all kind of pour out and I kind of have a like,
you know, and he has a lot of money and whatever.
Yeah. Yeah. But, but at the same time, like Bertolucci
is a guy who is not trying to write a defense
of his perversions. No. He's always examining
and criticizing himself. That's the thing. Maybe
he's indulging in his perversions in the making
of these movies or whatever. The only sort of
story I've heard in that respect that's negative
is the Last Tango story, which... Yeah, where
maybe the whole butter thing wasn't planned and
kind of jumped on Maria Schneider. Right. I mean,
she was cast in 1900 for a while, too, in Novacento,
and then was fired and replaced with Stefania
Sandrelli, who's my favorite, but I love her.
Yeah, it was not like that was the end of their
working relationship. I don't need to get into
the defense of Bertolucci and her stories over
the years or whatever. We've talked about this
in other podcasts, like just problematic things
happened in a very like loose liberal. free environment
where like, you know, I think we might've said
this in one of the Pixar episodes, but you take
the good with the bad, essentially, if you're
going to have like a very liberal, free environment,
magic happens, all this really amazing stuff
happens, but also problematic things happen too.
And things slip through the cracks without accountability
and whatever, you know? Right. But I mean, there's
not stories about lack of accountability on 1900
and there's not stories about lack of accountability
on The Last Emperor or any of his other movies
that really do kind of seem like they could be
problematic. Like, you know what I mean? So the
point is, I think that a lot of these are perverse.
I guess there's like a bigger conversation to
be had about this these days when it comes to
just like art and especially displaying like,
you know, new children in art or like how, you
know, appropriate is to take like pictures of
your children in the bath anymore or whatever.
And maybe it was just like some cultural moment
where that was okay. Like, I don't know. It's
like, these things have gotten more like weird
and tricky, you know? And there's like that Bill
Burr thing where he's talking about how he loves
kids, but if like, he just can't talk to them
anymore. Cause he'd seem like a creep talking
to kids like out at the park or whatever. And,
um, when I look at a lot, like when I go into
a museum and I look at a lot of art from like
the early 1900s or like the late 19th century,
you see a lot of naked kids and you see like
nudity and you see like an acceptance of like
a lot of animalistic things and violence and
whatever, you know, like there seems to be like
an acknowledgement of, um, the perversion of
nature, or maybe it's not even a perversion.
It's just like an acknowledgement of nature.
And the perversion is more of the covering up
or the not acknowledging of it or whatever. Like
I found the seam, I found all the penis related
scenes between the boys to be very innocent and
very real and like absolutely something that
boys. do right right right and like and something
that you haven't seen the whole thing comes up
like i think bertolucci's films are very like
fine art in a way like i don't know how else
to explain it they feel like movies that should
be like hanging up in museums you know and they
have like the timelessness and permanence of
something painted from that time you know what
i mean like there's something about it that's
really really just like It is of a time that
is not burdened by all these conservative ideals
and whatever. There's an innocence to it that's
beautiful that doesn't feel super perverted in
the way that he portrays all these things, to
me, in the way that you don't feel perverted
looking at fine art. They also often start with
a piece of art, right? Yeah, it starts with a
piece of art of, I guess, presumably the older
family, like the last generation or maybe the
younger. I thought that was like a piece. It
might be a piece, I don't know. Yeah, so it's
Giuseppe Pellizza de Filippo's The Fourth Estate.
It's an oil painting made between 1898 and 1901
and depicts a moment during a labor strike when
workers' representatives calmly and confidently
stride out of a crowd to negotiate workers' rights.
So it's a piece of communist art. But The Last
Tango in Paris also starts with a piece of Francis
Bacon as well. So at least both of those movies
start with a piece of art. The Last Emperor does
not, I don't think, does it? No, it does start
with a montage of some Chinese imperialist art
and architecture. Wow, okay. Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So yeah, the idea that these are movies that
are to be hung in a museum, he's kind of specifically...
referencing like that type of, you know, painting
art. He is really dealing in that romantic period.
I mean, I don't know if we call it romantic.
It's not like literally the romantic period,
but just like that, that is a time of great change.
The end of the 19th century, the industrial revolution
into the early 20th century. And, um, a lot of
the movies of his I've seen, like he seems to
be a very politically minded filmmaker. Um, he
seems to often talk about fascism and socialism
and definitely. Yeah. I mean, he started with
Godard, right? Like he started as a, as a pupil
of Godard's and it was with the conformist that
he sort of left Godard, I think. Yeah. The conformist,
which is a, it's a great movie, but it was not
Godard style. Yeah. It was a departure from,
from the sort of overt, you know, Well, it's
what he would have called fascistic, its style,
right? Like, it's seductive. It's beautiful.
Like, they're very, like, the colors are lush.
They look real. They're romantic. They're romantic.
They look like paintings. Yeah, they're gorgeous.
And, yeah, there is just, like, such an innocence
to them. And it's interesting, too, because,
like, a movie like 1900, I feel like I kind of
get Bertolucci's political leanings, but 1900
feels very fair in a lot of ways. Like, I know
there is, like, there's no read of the movie
that's, like, maybe there's some good to fascism
or something. But, like, the tragedy of the movie
is, like, De Niro's character, Alfredo, kind
of allowing the fascism to take over. Like, we're
not really surprised by Attila. He's basically
Amon Goth. Yeah, I mean, to a certain extent,
yeah. I mean, he shows, like, a very, very brutal,
boorish side to fascism. Like the fact that he's
like a guy who can climb up the ranks and like
get any power at all because he's a total pathetic
piece of shit. That's the thing that's really
highlighted about his character is that like
he exerts power in a way that's very, very like
manic and crazy. And it makes him seem very,
very terrifying. Like he like kills that cat
by headbutting it into the wall. Very bizarre,
but also very, like, okay, like, don't fuck with
this guy then. Like, that's kind of, like, what
the fuck? You know? And, like, the way he kills
that child, too, so you have, like, that very
fucked up pedophilic scene, which, like, he doesn't
show it, but, like, you know that Attila and
Regina, like, totally just, like, fuck that kid
together. And, like, I don't know, they're so
drunk on the adrenochrome that he, like, has
to, like... swing the kid around. It's such a
fucked up and weird scene, dude. That scene and
the scene in The Conformist are both so disturbing
and connected. He's such a guy that's got an
auteur theory take where he has the same scene
in all these different movies. It's basically
the same scene, but way more intense than the
thing that Game of Thrones just does at the end
of the first episode. Yeah, it is. It's the first
episode of Game of Thrones. took it from this
exactly yeah it did or like martin did because
he wrote it in the book or whatever but right
it's way more intense and fucked up and very
bizarre like the thing of just like swinging
the kid around and smashing his head against
the wall it's so fucking like after realizing
that they raped this kid and he's like just trying
to get away and he grabs him and then he like
like baseball bats him against the wall like
it is so like horrifyingly brutal and sick you
know like i don't know there's something about
that that was just like man dude does it go hard
yeah it really does there's only like a couple
of scenes like that that go that hard there's
that scene in the you know little makeshift prison
there during the silent republic kind of era
but that's basically it there's not that much
violence in the movie until i guess the end but
that's just against the fascists No, but everything,
everything in it feels like, cause like at the
beginning you don't got violence, but you got
like the literal nakedness of the children relationship.
Everything feels intimate. Everything feels like
real, but it's also kind of the most brutal and
honest and in your face depiction of all these
things. I mean, I think that's one of the most
interesting things is how intimate it all feels.
I mean, obviously this all takes place on one
sort of farm and everybody does know each other,
but like, that's, I don't know if you're, if
you're going to tell the story of, you know,
the son of the landowner and the son of the farmhand
you'd think they'd be sort of at odds or something
and the idea that no no they're just kind of
in love with each other like is so much cooler
like they like intimately know each other and
have this deep loving connection that's super
important for both of them and stuff and continues
in the end eternally you know what i mean like
the end is so great the ending is amazing yeah
i'm with them pulling each other and whatnot,
fighting. The ending really lends to a surreal,
a surreal nature. It becomes French New Wave
again. Yeah, it becomes French New Wave. Yeah,
it's very, very surreal. He circles back. There's
the point when Omo breaks the fourth wall and
starts just like literally talking to the camera
about the rising fascism and how you need to
look out for blah, blah, blah. It's like, it
just becomes a French New Wave film. Sure, I
mean. Almost even like. Charlie Chaplin. Yeah,
Chaplin, exactly. Yeah, machine men with machine
hearts. Machine men with machine minds. Yeah,
that's what's really interesting, too, is that
we talk about films from this time as if there
was some sort of awakening to the dehumanization
and stuff like that that was going on, especially
since the late 19th century, right? It's like,
yeah, Chaplin was already talking about this
in modern times. It was already very evident
to the people going through it. And I feel like
that narrative... It's like what was buried by
the people who won out, the capitalists and the
fascists and whatever. The connection of capitalism
and fascism, the connection of industry and fascism.
Yeah, this goes back to our conversation with
Heavy about Willy Wonka and Schindler's List.
The idea that World War II didn't really end.
It's just that the power center of fascism kind
of shifted. Which really is the idea that World
War I didn't really end. And it's World War II
and World War I were the same war that is still
going on now. Well, it's like the idea that the
wars have beginnings and ends. Like, I mean,
basically we always live with the consequences
of the war afterwards and nothing's ever truly
settled, right? Like nothing's ever truly settled.
It is just a momentary peace. Like we were talking
about the Hoppers episode. Things change. That's
one of the things I think is interesting about
19... I'd really like to call it Novacento because
I hate the title 1900. Yeah, 1900. Because it
implies that it's about the year 1900. But it's
about the early century. It's the new century.
It's supposed to be 20th century. It's just that
in Italian you call that 19 -cento. So if we
called it... 19th century then it wouldn't sound
right because that would mean the 1800s it's
like but we want to call it novacento because
it's 1900 like it's stupid they should just call
it 20th century the move this is the movie that's
called 20th century and it's like the perfect
movie to be called that you know what i mean
yeah i guess i guess the title 20th century is
kind of like yeah i don't know like novacento
means the century that starts with 1900 Yeah,
exactly. Which is like, we call that the 20th
century. Yeah, but it is also only about half
the century. It only kind of goes up to like
the 50s, I think. But I think that's the point,
is like, it's the same thing still. Like, I mean,
first of all, it was only 1976 when this came
out. Yeah, it was only 1976. Yeah, exactly. This
is recent memory for these people. Italians in
the 70s, this is recent memory, all this stuff.
So from the 70s perspective, this is the story
of the 20th century. It really is crazy to think
about how fast stuff changed and how it wasn't
that long ago that entire families... That there
were kings in Italy. There were people who owned
entire families who tended their land. And what
changed after World War I and after World War
II and after... Not really that much, actually.
Not really that much. Today, the Padrone lives,
you know what I mean? No, yeah, the Padrone lives,
man. Exactly. I mean, the end of this movie is
so brutal. Dude, the Padrone lives, but the Padrone
hates himself. Yeah. The Padrone lays his head
on the track. Yeah, yeah. While the laborer laughs
and drinks a bottle. watching him you know i
mean almost just dying the same way that his
dad died you know what i mean yeah his grandfather
didn't they all commit suicide his dad nobody
knows who his dad is he's just his dad is one
of the other farmers his mom says of course i
know because if i didn't who would and then everybody
laughs i was talking about okay fucked by all
the farmers No, no, no. I wasn't talking about
Olmo. I was talking about Alfredo. Alfredo's
grandfather was the padrone when he was born.
Alfredo's grandfather hung himself in the barn.
And then Alfredo's father took over. And I think
he also died in the barn, but did he kill himself
or did he get killed? Okay, he also killed himself.
Basically, he's told that he collapsed in the
barn, but that could be euphemism. You know what
I mean? I remember that Alfredo... Either he
died in the cow shed or he died in cow shit.
Which one did it say? Because you said you watched
it with subtitles, right? Well, I remember that
Olmo said he died in the cow shed. When I watched
it, I wasn't sure if he said in the cow shed
or in cow shit because it sounds so similar,
but I guess the subtitles say cow shit. But it's
all about... Milk and blood and shit in the brain.
Alfredo walks in on Olmo taking his father's
gun out of the study or whatever. And then Alfredo's
kind of just like, yeah, whatever. He doesn't
need it. Yeah, he comes back for his dad's funeral.
Yeah. And then Olmo's filling him in on where
his wife went, that he has a daughter, and where
Alfredo's father died, which was in the cow shed.
But yeah, that's also and I think what's really
interesting in that scene is that like he obviously
cares more about Anita than he cared about his
father. You know what I mean? But like he's coming
back for his father's funeral, but he didn't
know that Anita died in childbirth. Almost wife
and his longtime friend. You know what I mean?
Oh, yeah. There's something there about class,
too, where it's like he has to come back for
his dad's funeral, even though he like basically
doesn't give a shit. And then he's like, well,
is that your kid? And he's like, yeah. He's like,
well. Where's Anita? And he's like, oh, she died
in childbirth. And then he starts crying. And
it's like, yeah, he's not going to cry like that
for his asshole dad. You know what I mean? But
he's also not going to come back because Anita
died. You know? Oma wouldn't call him and tell
him, come back, it's Anita's funeral. Like, that's
just a class divide. It's weird. But it's also
something that he's relegated to as well. Like,
you know what I mean? Like, he's left out of
the loop because he's rich as well. Like, it's
weird. It's just... It's really heartbreaking
in that scene. She dies off screen and we just
find out about it. And she was the revolution.
You know what I mean? And then that's when he's
like, you've been away for a month. There's a
lot of things you don't know. And he begs him
to send Attila away. This is when he's like,
there's still time. You have a chance. He's like,
look, you're in charge now. You can do the right
thing. And he's like... Maybe I will. He's like,
it wouldn't do any good. These stocks are working
for me right now, you know what I mean? It's
like this is kind of, I'm not going to listen
to you. He literally says, no, Mussolini won,
which is one of the only mentions of Mussolini
in this movie, I think. But he's just like, no,
Mussolini won. There's a couple of them. He says
long live Mussolini or something at the beginning.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He says Mussolini won. And
so it's like, it's very like... He's mentioned
the Duce a couple of times and stuff during the
sailor sequence and stuff. That's why we can
kind of get into just like how this movie is
a very like lucid conversation about fascism
and kind of like the takeover of fascism, how
much it relies on... the sort of like ubiquity
of the mindset, but how, but like kind of in
this case, specifically how easy it is to get
the upper class on the side of it that like part
of like the reason fascism can work is because
it ends up consolidating all the elite on its
side. But it's also a populist thing. It's also
like Attila is not an elite. You don't need to
deny that one. It is both. Part of it is like
how it can consolidate the elite because like
compare it to everything that's happened. recently
with trump or whatever like it's like the exact
same playbook where you have a kind of like more
of a cult of personality the elites don't buy
it but they buy it no no exactly they don't buy
into it but they buy it or whatever no they buy
it yeah because it's like of financial interest
or the believers like attila who are not elites
no actually um the pejorne has control over him
the whole movie right he theoretically has control
well like the pejorne He's not really, yeah,
exactly like, Alfredo's not really in control.
Attila is, but whenever Alfredo's around, Attila
has to obey his commands. Right. And there is
just like, you know, I think basically most of
the time Alfredo's commanding Attila. It's just
like, he's just kind of like torturing him and
expressing his frustration out on him instead
of just like doing the hard thing of actually
firing him and actually making any change. He
sees Attila as this like thing in his life that
causes all this like pain and conflict within
him. You know what I mean? But like he can't
do the brave thing of actually cutting him off
and actually being part of the communist revolution
or whatever and giving resources to that. It's
very, yeah, it's weird. It's very weird and interesting,
but, like, it also goes back to their childhood.
Like, I think in the end it also says, like,
yeah, Alfredo is a coward. It doesn't really
matter that he, like, lays under the train. It
doesn't really, like, prove anything. There's
something the whole time about how, like, Olmo
just knows Alfredo is a coward, you know? And
he never disproves him. Like, they're basically
the same people once they're adults. Alfredo
has no courage to overcome the life that has
been laid out for him. And a lot of that is the
result of his class. Yeah, exactly. Not only
his values and his personality and his interests.
And one of my favorite parts of that, I think,
is the Dominic Sanda aspect of the movie. Dominic
Sande and Stefania Sandrelli. The modern woman.
The whole modern woman part of the movie. Exactly.
Anita, Anita. Yeah, Anita. It's Ada. There's
Ada and there's Anita. Anita is Stefania Sandrelli
and Ada is Dominic Sande. Dominic Sande is the
modern woman. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly.
is, you know, the trad wife. She's communist,
but, you know, she wants to get a man and get
married and have children and whatnot, and she
dies in childbirth. She's also intelligent and
outspoken and politically aware and stuff. She,
like, kind of does a lot of work in the movie.
Like, I mean, she yells at people. Like, she
yells at the fascists to their face. She's, like,
one of the brave ones. Yeah. She's the bravest
of the revolution. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she's
also a traditional sort of woman. You know what
I mean? Yeah. And like the tribe wife thing of
like being accepting of the sacrifices needed
and not putting yourself first and whatever.
Yeah. Like Ada is a very, very like, Ada is fucking
weird, dude. She's like, she's a fucking manic
pixie dream girl. She's kind of like a weird
bipolar woman who like. And look, like you have
to like, think about this, dude. Alfreda was
born. Into a place with kings and jesters and
shit. And now he's evolved so much that he wants
a manic pixie dream girl. You know how much education
that takes? You know how much money that takes
and cocaine that takes to make that guy that
sophisticated? Yeah, I know. He's a sophisticated
man. He's such a sophisticated aristocrat that
he wants to be with. Ada. Which is what we all
now... That's why the Manic Pixie Dream Girl
is a modern... That's a thing that is valued
now. Maybe not now as much as... I don't know.
We don't need to be making generalizations. It's
a modern thing. But no, it's a modern archetype,
Ada. She's a modern archetype, and it's the Barbie
thing. There's something about Ada that... Ada
represents the image of woman more now. I mean,
I'm saying this as a man, but Ada represents
woman more now than... Anita does. You might
find plenty of Anita's around in this country.
You know, like there's still, there's still plenty
of Anita's, but like the cities are filled with
odd immigrants. Yeah. They're immigrants. Anita's
in this country are immigrants. I guess so. We
got all the homegrown American whites. They're
all odd as man. They don't want children. They
want an opium. Well, they're trying to go to
college. Yeah. They want to go to college and
get a, get a boss girl job. That was interesting,
too. It is interesting that the privileged life
that Alfredo led turned him into basically, like,
he's a sissy pants. He's not a man in the way
that Olmo is. No. He's not an action -oriented
guy. Not at all. He's lame, dude. He's a lame
duck. And, like, Ada can just walk all over him.
And he just thinks it's fascinating that, like...
she would cause this type of a scene, isn't it?
And it's like, that's like a piece of art to
cause a scene like that in that way at that time.
That's, that's high minded art. And it's like,
I understand being the guy sitting back and being
like, nah, she's amazing. Look at it. I know,
but she has like, but she has like a, she has
a disorder, but she's like a mentally ill person.
She's got, she's got, yeah. she's like not a
borderline personality disorder yeah she's borderline
personality disorder exactly she's a BPD art
hoe as they say she can't be real like she can't
you don't actually know what her deal you know
what I mean it's like it's insincere well she
can eventually when she's just drunk Yeah, when
she's drunk and on opium. And all she wants is
just another drink. Actually, are we conflating
movies? That's what that evolves into. You know
what I mean? That's the end point of Alfredo
and Ada's. This is very similar to The Last Emperor
because his wife in The Last Emperor gets addicted
to opium. Yeah, I know. It's the same. Ada's
addiction is cocaine. I think it's mostly drinking,
but I... Drinking, yeah, drinking and cocaine.
Yeah. Cocaine definitely comes into the picture.
I don't know if cocaine is as much of a problem
at that point. I think it's mostly just... There's
a scene where Alfredo and her do cocaine with
Uncle... I know it's opium in The Last Emperor,
and it's also opium in The Conformist. Is there
not opium at all in 1900? I just watched The
Last Emperor last night and watched 1900 the
days before it, so it's kind of hard for me to
remember if... It happened in both or if it was
just one. But it definitely happened in The Conformist
as well. So the idea of an Italian old lady being
addicted to opium because her driver is giving
her opium or whatever is a part of The Conformist,
which is also a huge part of The Last Emperor.
That doesn't happen in 1900, though. It has some
big similarities to Ada's story. I don't think
there's a person who gets murdered because they're
sleeping with Ada or giving her drugs or something
like that. Because it definitely happens in The
Last Emperor where they kill the driver. Yeah,
which apparently didn't happen in real life.
That's one of the things that's changed, I think.
He protected that guy who impregnated his wife.
I feel like 1900 probably doesn't have... It
did happen in The Conformist where the conformist's
mother is addicted to opium because her driver...
who's this Chinese guy is selling her opium and
keeping her addicted and trying to live off of
her and stuff. And then he gets the fascist to
beat that guy up. His name is Trees, right? Or
it's translated as Trees, but it's like Arbery.
It's been even longer since I've seen The Conformist,
but... The point is there's like a lot of these
like things in Bertolucci's movies that really
overlap. He's kind of one of these guys that
like, like as much as De Palma or something,
it's just like he has very... very specific things.
No, totally. He has director's trademarks. He
has vision. He's an auteur. That doesn't mean
like he has a thing where it's like all of the
mothers have to be kind of opium addicts in some
way. Somebody has to get killed who also has
to be a driver. Like, I don't know. There's like,
there's a lot of these weird things that like
don't really add up. It seems to be like coincidences
over and over and over. Um, I mean, I don't want
to get too much into the last emperor yet, I
guess, but like one of the things, that both
movies depict is the sort of like enslaved state
of the woman in these like highly relationships,
but also the men themselves are also slaves,
especially in the last emperor. It's very highlighted
that like the emperor himself is not a free man.
And I think that's largely true in 1900. I think
it is largely true of Alfredo as well. Yeah.
I think that there are things happening outside
politically, things with Alfredo's fortune and
land and whatever that politically that he needs
to not kick out Attila. I think that the movie
implies that. I know that it seems to you that
we could just get rid of Attila, Olmo, but it's
not really that simple. I just don't think Olmo...
cares about those considerations it's not like
personal like olmo doesn't lose anything by winning
that's the point of being part of the socialist
and fighting he's part of the laborers and they've
been fucked over for a really long time and it's
just getting worse too i think that's an interesting
thing the movie points out too is that the padrone
at the beginning feels much more in touch with
the laborers like he feels like a guy who he
visits them he talks to them he knows their names
that's the whole thing there's a kind of thing
about thing of the movie yeah there's a kind
of like Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, exactly. There's
such a friendliness to him. His and Sterling
Hayden's, when he's trying to, he's like, have
a drink with me. And Sterling Hayden's like,
no, we have to cut this field. And then he's
like, he has to put the drink in front of the
cut so that he can't cut the field. And he's
like, all right, let's have a drink. Yeah, Sterling
Hayden is great. In that he never really can
win. sterling hayden's like respect you know
what i mean he actually does respect sterling
sterling hayden but sterling hayden doesn't respect
him yeah exactly and like he knows that you know
but he wants him to just i mean kind of like
his kind of like his fucking son yeah his grandson
you know and even though they're friends or whatever
it's like there's there's not respect between
or like ormo does not respect alfredo He loves
him. No, but he doesn't respect him. He thinks
he's a coward. He's always shown that he doesn't
respect him. He shouldn't. He shouldn't respect
him. Yeah, he shouldn't. Exactly. He's a little
bitch. But at the same time, I think in the end,
when we have almost, you know, communist takeover
and whatever, we see how sort of ill -fated that
is, too. Yeah. It's just kind of like, oh, no,
you're being liberated. We're taking all your
guns and the padrone lives. Idiots. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. They're going to let you be a bunch of
communists. You've lost a war. It's not going
to be good for a while. Well, it is also so local,
right? Like you said, they're fighting for their
own land. They're fighting this smaller battle.
that's like indicative of this larger battle
going on between the fascists and the socialists
and the landowners. It wasn't even like a kingdom
until like 50 years before that or something.
It's like, it wasn't even like a united idea.
Like, I don't know, you know, like this is all
very new. And so like, yeah, like this is generations
of people who have worked this land and generations
of people who have owned this land. That's people
haven't left, you know, until like world war
one. And that's why World War I then changes
everything. You know what I mean? People returning
from that and then industrialization that had
to contribute to that and everything. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And then, yeah, obviously the rise of fascism
after World War I. Well, I think that the times
we've been living in sometimes give us the impression
that people have always been very nationalistic
and have seen human society and the structure
of it in terms of having similarity. That it
should be, and this is also what Heavy was talking
about in our Chandler's List episode, but the
idea that the state is inherently genocidal.
There's something where it needs homogeny. People
need to believe the same things. And there needs
to be this idea that we're all one and that we're
not this vast array of differences and diversities
or whatever. But Hannah Arendt writes about totalitarianism.
She lays out the point that a lot of this stuff
was new, kind of like you're saying. It's hard
to imagine a time where people weren't held together
by some kind of ideology or something, but maybe
the actual truth of the past is that we were
much better at dealing with diversity and ecological
balance and the fact that the world was just
filled with a lot of difference and surprises
and whatever. And inequality. And inequality
and whatever. Yeah, all this stuff was a part
of the natural world. And that it was actually
kind of a new thing that emerged at the end of
the 19th century, early 20th century, this idea
of oneness and unity and that people weren't
diverse and that like they could all fall under
some kind of umbrella that would be a people
or a state or whatever. And that seems wrong
because there were empires before that and stuff
like that. But like empires could never turn
half of the globe into what they were. That's
not how empires worked. You know, it wasn't about
like. making everybody one ideological thing
or something it was just about assimilation and
fusion i guess just a like sharing of cultures
and like these places all change but it's not
like they change one way or the other they just
become a new thing i don't know it's just like
it's interesting to think about fascism as a
modern force and like thinking about its connection
to capitalism and its connection to industrialization
What I think is the thing that this movie does
the best for me. The machines showing up, dude.
Yeah, the machines show up, dude. The fucking
machines show up. And who's psyched about it?
Who's fucking psyched about the machine? Exactly,
dude. It's Attila. To me, that's just the main
thing. It's just kind of like, this is a movie
about like when machines show up, what type of
people are psyched about it? What type of people
benefit off of it? And like, what type of people
are eliminated in that process? Dude, the scene,
that's like one of the first scenes where Attila
talks and it's like his character introduction,
but it makes him so horrifying. Right off the
bat, he's like, yes, we all need our grain. We
all need our share of grain, but the machine
needs its share too. It's like, I was just like,
dude. And I mean, at that point, he's coming
to the workers as like a fellow worker. You know
what I mean? Like, I'm not an aristocrat. I'm
one of you. This will make it easier. Yeah, exactly.
He's wearing their clothes. Every worker needs
his grain. These need their grain, too. And blah,
blah, blah. Actually, it starts before that with
his father. um with alfredo's father is is psyched
about the first red machines the tractors and
he actually has the conversation with sterling
hayden leo you're right yeah leo is like yeah
but look look at all this stuff left on the ground
and he's like yeah well you know you know and
it's just like yeah yeah like this does like
70 of the job but like we don't have to pay for
any of you so maybe we're doing a far worse job
and being more wasteful and whatever, but like,
also we can kill you. You know what I mean? It's
like, but also like you're eliminated. So there,
that, that benefits me as like the person who's
living off of, well, I don't need to live off
of you anymore. I can just, it's, it's just,
it's so gross. And it's like, yeah, no, it's
not doing even as good of a job as the farm hands.
You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's the same
as AI. Like that's to me. And before like, We've
talked about, like, I feel like AI is something
that, like, you can talk about how horrible it
is or you can talk about how good it is. And
either way, it's an advertisement for AI. And
I'm a person who wants to shrug at AI because
it doesn't do that good of a job. But to me,
it's like, no, no, no. Actually, part of the
point is it doesn't need to do that good of a
job. It actually needs to only do 70 % of the
job. Everything can continue to decrease in quality
as long as you also eliminate people. Like, that's
the thing. It's the inshitification, as they're
calling it. inherently evil about it is that
it's been that way since the beginning. It's
inherently genocidal. And that's the process
of technology. And that's to me the thing is
like this movie is a political movie in that
it's talking about the rise of fascism in Italy
or whatever. But really it's just about the process
of industrialization and what that does to humanity
and the types of people who like it and the types
of people who don't. Yeah, in 1900s Italy, it
was pretty clear that those people were fascists.
They're one and the same. Isn't that the point,
man? Machine men with machine hearts and machine
minds. Yeah, yeah, of course. That was the whole
point, is that these things are one and the same.
It's like the idea that we can have progress,
like technological progress, without the fascism.
that's like this utopian dream, right? And people
still hold onto that, you know? And I think there
like could still be truth to that. You know,
it's like, I think people are holding onto that
less and less. I think now they're just going
like, no, no, no, we're a fascist. It doesn't
matter anymore. No, exactly. Because it's like,
well, look how, look how easily it went that
direction. Look how quickly open AI went from
a utopian open source vision to this totally.
lockdown private enterprise. Like, it's just
kind of like, wow, that happened fast. Like there's
no effort to, and it really is too. It's, it's
because they're all fucking Alfredo's dude. They're
all people who are just like, yeah, what good
would it do? And like Mussolini's in charge anyway,
like Trump's in charge. So like why, you know
what I mean? It's like exact same shit. Yeah.
I mean, some of them are Alfredo. I mean, there's
also a lot of Attila's out there. No, there's
Attila's and Alfredo's. A few good people are
Alfredo's. Yeah, exactly. And they're just shitty.
Like, if you're not a monster, you're just a
shitty person. You're bad at being a person.
But these are the two people. There's not really
a lot of Olmos right now. There's not really
a lot of Olmos, you know. There's not a lot of
Olmos. Maybe they'll start rising up, you know.
I mean, I think that in order to create Olmos,
man, you need them to struggle and farm the land.
And if they don't work, yeah, right. I'm a fucking
Alfredo. All of us in America are fucking Alfredos.
No, you're right. Me, most of all. No, you're
right. You're right. Even poor people in this
country are like, most poor people in this country
are just homeless or something. They're not creating
products. for the country they're just not productive
they're not doing anything they're considered
like waste by the system sure it's like all these
people who actually create value and have jobs
all these desk jobs like there was like enough
of a like payback for long enough in this country
that people didn't feel like they were being
just horribly oppressed. Like it's very clear
that things are just getting worse for the workers
in this movie that like what they're getting
under the Burt Lancaster is like far better than
what they're getting under his son. And like
the difference in scenes between like him coming
out and celebrating and giving them all alcohol
to celebrate the birth of these children and
whatever. And then his fucking son coming out
and being like, oh, you lost half because of
this act of God. Well, I guess you get paid half
then. It's like, well, we don't get paid more
when we harvest more. It's like, oh, you know,
just because you said that, I want your ear.
It's just so insane, dude. Like, it is so insane.
He didn't say I want you. The guy gave him the
ear. No, the guy gave him the ear. And warned
the argument. And that's fucking being a man
in a way that is not alive anymore. And then
he goes home and gives his children, like, a
couple pieces of cornbread. Polenta. And they
rub it on the piece of salami that hangs and
they get a little grease. A little bit of like,
it's like a fish that's hanging there or something.
Yeah, a dead fish maybe. Then the little girl's
like, I'm still hungry. And he's like, listen
to me, child, and you will forget hunger. And
starts playing his ocarina. That's how you make
an omo, you know? Going up like that. Not growing
up fucking poor going to McDonald's and not having
a job. You know what I mean? It's not the same
thing. No, not at all, man. There isn't an opportunity
to live a healthy enough life, I don't know,
to be at home. It's all Alfredus. Yeah, dude,
at least in this country. The Olmos are over
in Palestine. The Olmos are over in Iran. The
Olmos are over in places that are getting fucking
hammered by fascists. Us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's
sad, dude. It's really sad. There's a lot of
other stuff going on in this movie. You know
what I mean? It'd be really hard to really cover
everything. Well, the other part I want to talk
about would probably be the end slash beginning
segment of the movie, the sort of communist propaganda
act. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean,
it is interesting. It is one of those movies
that starts at the end or near the end and then
goes back. It's really interesting, too, because
in the beginning you see, regina and attila running
away and like he gets pitchforked or whatever
so like i guess it doesn't end well for them
like it's interesting that like they show that
up front yeah yeah and i guess you don't really
know exactly what happens but you kind of assume
like oh well they got them they're gonna kill
them and that is mostly true i love that it's
just sort of these idyllic angelic female farmhands
who are like all pitchforking It's pretty great.
It's so, like, romantic. But then, yeah, it goes
back to the beginning, tells a little story,
and then we get here. And there's also the kid
who's pointing the gun at Alfredo. Right. Holding
him hostage or whatever. Right. And, yeah, so
we get back to that point, and then it moves.
It's like the Forrest Gump thing, where it gets
to that point, and then it moves a little bit
forward. Right. And we see. The feather on the
wind is. Yeah, yeah. I'm stabbing it. but no
yeah they decide not to kill alfredo like there's
this kind of thing like he's a living proof of
the death of the padrone it's a weird like obviously
argument for yeah it's a weird romantic argument
for not killing this guy's friend yeah alfredo
like there is also that moment right like we
talked about the child getting murdered but not
really the whole this is sort of the big moment
of betrayal where alfredo doesn't stand up for
olmo And Oma only kind of gets out of it because,
like, some other guy says he was the murderer.
Right. And it just kind of gets all, like— And
then shows up years later. Yeah, shows up years
later. It's like if there's a big gap in time
there and that guy shows up and he's like, oh,
yeah, I was in prison for that thing I said.
Yeah, he's like, it didn't matter. I didn't live
wherever. Yeah, prison, prison or whatever. Yeah,
it doesn't matter. But, yeah, that is the moment
of betrayal and also just the refusal to fire
Attila, truly join their side in a significant
way. I mean, it's interesting that, like, you
know, Olmo is, like, drifting away even before
the betrayal. But, you know, he doesn't really,
like, go to the wedding. And he's kind of just,
like, doing his normal shit. He's hunting. And
Alfredo's, like... It seems like he's not invited.
Well, Alfredo says, like, I didn't think you
were going to come or whatever. Like, it seemed
like Alfredo expected him to come. Like, he didn't
need to be invited or something. I don't know.
Maybe it's just, yeah, I guess it's too high
class an event. You can't invite him. Right.
There seems to be, there's, there's just like
this inherent divide there that like, there's,
there's often like things like that in the movie.
They're like, this is just a little weird. Like,
it doesn't really make sense. It's like, oh no,
it does make sense in the, in the context of
like, this guy was born the owner of this other
guy. Like, you know? Yeah, exactly. He owns him.
And so like, that makes this relationship weird.
Like, it's not that it's, you know, not well
written. It's just like, that's the weird thing.
I guess that really is the weird thing. It's
almost like the master in some ways. There is
the master -servant relationship thing and the
complexity of being in love with each other.
The master loving the servant and vice versa.
It's a very, very interesting thing to explore.
Because it's fundamentally an examination of
the nature of power and just how power exists
in all relationships. It's not like somebody's
always going to be dominating over someone else
in every aspect, but there are just certain personality
traits that trump other ones. Or circumstances.
Or circumstances where one person often has to
sacrifice more than the other in a lot of relationships.
It's hard to find a very... even that's like
part of what's difficult about our relationships
is like it's hard to find an even keel of give
and take and like it's only when you have this
perfect equilibrium that you can't say somebody
is a master or a servant anymore but like once
the scale tips you have a clear relationship
of power you have a clear power dynamic where
one person has more power than the other this
is obviously a story where like the amount of
power the landowner has just grows and grows
and the amount of power that the worker has recedes
which leads to a revolutionary spirit among the
workers and it's like that power imbalance is
always like that's going to destroy any relationship
right like you can't really have like it's an
abusive relationship you can't have like even
if somebody is like tilling the land and somebody
is the head you know just like running the operation
the political part of it or whatever it is like
there has to be an acknowledgement of that like
that these things are in synergy and they need
one another and if you're only kind of giving
resources and energy to one part of it and not
the other then that thing dissolves like you
do need the workers like yeah i understand they're
replaceable but they're just as replaceable as
the padrone like all this stuff is like the padrone
is absolutely replaceable and and bert lancaster
like uh knew that you know what i mean it's all
milk and shit that's the thing like whereas i
don't know that sterling hayden really was replaceable
Like Leo. He was not replaced by better men necessarily.
That's true. Burt Lancaster was not replaced
by better. You're right. You're right. That's
the thing. You're right. He had respect for the
thing enough that he did bring something to the
table. Yeah, exactly. But he also, what about
him molesting Link from The Legend of Zelda?
You're talking about the elder, Burt Lancaster?
Yeah, yeah. Molesting Link? Like the girl. Yeah.
That's an interesting scene. That's an interesting
scene because it's like very, very like rapey
and weird, but it's like kept light because.
he chooses to do it in a way where the girl is
not threatened at all. And like, she's almost
kind of like too oblivious and like she can grab
his penis and not feel like, I don't know what
the hell is animal or something like, like what
the hell even is this? Like, yeah, yeah. She's
not, she's not really fully human or something.
It's weird. It is weird. Cause he also says like,
go tell them that, you know, the Padrona is dead.
And then she goes back and then like, apparently
it dawns on her while she's dancing to tell them
that the Padrona is dead. Like in the middle,
it's so surreal. It is very surreal, yeah. It
feels like intentionally unrealistic or something.
There's something super surreal about it. Well,
there's a lot of surreal elements about the movie.
Similar, I think, to the molestation in The Conformist
that feels similarly surreal. Sure. If you remember
the molestation situation in The Conformist is
the guy gives him a gun and then, like, makes
him shoot him. Yeah. It's like, it's super weird.
Like, and doesn't, it's like, it's a, it's, it's
like a way of talking about like a guy making
you come or something. And it's like, and he's
using a gun and violence and sexuality and this
thing that doesn't quite add up. There's something
weird and creepy. Yeah. But I, I really like
these weird, creepy Bertolucci scenes. Like I
think about them. I think they're interesting
and they feel like. There's something real to
them or something. It feels like him trying to
confess something. You know what I mean? About
his childhood or something. I don't know. But
a lot of his movies feel that way. Yeah. Some
weird stuff went down. But yeah, other than that
situation, he brought a lot to the table. But
I think that, you know, Bertolucci does undermine
all of his potential angelicness by having him
like molested, like obviously like what, 12 or
13 year old girl. Yeah. And this is also in...
He also doesn't go through with it and then kills
himself. So is it something that he did often?
Or is it something that he thought of doing and
then killed himself for thinking of doing and
didn't quite do? Like, you know what I mean?
Yeah, exactly. And this ties very much with The
Last Emperor, which, would you want to get into
that now? Yeah, sure. Well, the other thing I
wanted to think about was the relationship this
movie has to communism. And the way that sort
of the Sterling Hayden character and all of the
farmhands have this sort of communist ideology.
And in the end, when they feel like they've won,
we have this sort of idyllic vision of like a
communist takeover of this farm. And then it's
like, well, no, it's a false promise. It's not
going to go that way. But there is this sort
of like very sunny view of communism kind of
presented. I think almost like... over -the -top
-ly romantically. And I think that it is undermined
by the sort of brutality with which they treat
Regina and Attila. Not that they don't deserve
it, but there's something interesting about these
guys sitting around talking about their ideology
and communism and whatever, while there's a woman
screaming in the background to save her dying
husband, and then they just kind of shoot him
and then cut her hair. It's like there's this...
total because that is barbaric inhuman like thing
that's like no we know that they deserve this
but also doesn't it taint the romance of this
beautiful vision to like feature that kind of
so ugly and brutally there are more just ways
and humane ways they could deal with that like
they are not really pushed to that violence for
any like that's not necessary violence it's very
vengeful Yeah. I mean, the way that they treat
them like chattel and whatever and dehumanize
them as they're dying, I think. But that dehumanizes
them as well. You know, like we've said before
about like the Nazis and stuff is. Right. They
become dehumanized because of the way they're
treating them too. And like, I know it's like
a left sticking point because. There is always
going to kind of be this conflict about the necessity
of violence and when it's okay to use it and
what is being humane and do you just accept we're
all animals and is that justice? This is discussed
in Hateful Eight, you know, frontier justice
and state justice and which one has the more
potential to be an abuse of justice and whatever.
But I think it's a purge, you know what I mean?
It is a purge, but, like, regardless of how you
feel about it, I mean, regardless of what it
actually is, I just think you're right that that
moment feels kind of gross. There's not really,
like, a, um, you don't feel, like, really good
about that. Which, maybe that's the thing, because,
like, there's something about the beginning when
you don't know them yet. You know what I mean?
They, like, run out there, they stab them or
whatever. It's honestly, like, more fun than
later when you see it again. Or something, you
know what I mean? Like, there's, like, there's
something about, like, I don't really know what's
going on here, but this is kind of hilarious.
Like, this guy must deserve it. Like, I don't
know what the fuck is, you know what I mean?
It's also, like, they don't know that they're
killing them for the raping of the kid and stuff.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's the stuff that happens
in the prison at the end where he's actually
just killing people. No, yeah, he's just killing
people, but... It's really not until that very
end sequence, though, the whistling sequence,
that's amazing, where he actually does start
doing real harm to the workers. Because the kid
that they kill is a bourgeoisie kid. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And a lot of the other people that they're
attacking are the other bourgeoisie people. It's
just that what he's doing is keeping down the
farmers and stuff. And it's not until... That
very late period that he really is kind of indistinguishably
killing people. Totally. Yeah, absolutely. He
loses it. He becomes a total mad dog. So it makes
sense that this justice would happen or whatever.
It is what it is. It's animalistic. It's nature.
And he just goads him on. He accepts it. He admits
to his murders. He admits to killing everybody
that he killed. Then he has that great line where
he says, Regina, our children will... harvest
the seeds we planted yeah exactly it was like
such a cynical end of this movie i think really
because that's well what happens after that is
like yeah he gets shot then the revolution has
to give up all their guns and then Then fucking
Italy's in shambles for a long time, basically.
Things did not get better for these people, I'm
sure. Like, the Padrone probably things got better
for everybody else. Yeah, man, I mean, World
War I was very destructive for Italy, and that's
why they became fascistic. That's, like, what
led... One of the many elements that led to the
fascistic takeover was the destruction from World
War I. Right, of course. And, like... but also
it's simply a process of modernization like because
before world war one they they were just kingdoms
and became like the kingdom of italy and stuff
like they were it was not a modern plate i mean
we talked about this in the tenant episode but
like those wars just became a chance for the
fascistic power centers to gain power and control
over more things. That was, like, they were opportunities
for, like, these political entities to marry
with the capitalistic entities and do that by
harvesting the hatred, anger, and desperation
of the population in, like, desperate times.
Yeah, the frustration. Yeah, exactly. And it's
very easy to weaponize people. um, make neighbors
fight. It's also just like, it's crazy how this
stuff kind of just happens over and over again.
Like, I feel like we're in fucking groundhog's
day. Like recently I've been feeling that too,
about all like the Iran war stuff. Cause it's
just like, we're like, we're like stuck in a
weird ceasefire. That's not a ceasefire where
like, you know, our president kind of just says
something every week to like calm the markets
and rinse and repeat. And it's like, what's actually
happening. What's progressive. Like when does
reality catch up with like, what's happening
in the media you know i mean it's also weird
like everything just feels so and then everything
feels like a big repetition of other like a dumber
more watered -down version of other conflicts
and just you know it's like was this just like
yeah the stupidest self versus tragedy than his
force it's hard to even know like who benefits
from this one or like what the power like what
was the intent of the power shift as opposed
to the reality of it and we just like don't know
any of that yet And like, what will the actual
story be? Because like we said, did fascism really
get defeated in World War II? No. So when we
talk about like the end of World War II and that
this is like the start of World War III or something,
like, isn't this kind of just like the continuation
of values that were established by powerful states?
in the early 1900s you know states that value
like progress of technology and science as long
as it benefits those in power and allows them
to cut out more and more workers like yeah it's
just fucking it's still the landowners versus
the workers And that's been such a fucking conversation
recently with the AI and just like, you know,
how many people are losing jobs? Just like how
fucked these graduates are right now. Just like
being sold the promise of like, you can do code.
Like there's a future. There's a pot of gold
at the end of this rainbow. And then getting
out to the job market, it's like how many fucking
generate, like how many fucking classes of kids
now have come out into a job market? That's just
like. Cause this happened to us too. We went
out to the job market and then the recession
happened and shit. And it's just like, dude,
it's like, there's no, there's no, like nothing
is stable. So you can't like, I don't know what
I'm going to tell my kid. He should do, you know?
And like, he's going to be instilled with so
much more radical leftist, anti -establishment,
anti -fascist and capitalist views than I probably
was. Not because I want to. Communist with holes
in his pocket. Yeah. Yeah. So he can jerk off
without anyone knowing. It's the double meaning,
yeah. Yeah, the double meaning, exactly. Anyway,
done with my rant. You want to take a quick break
before we move on to The Last Emperor? Uh, sure.
Milk and shit in the brain. Machines are like
pills. Pals full of milk and shit. They share
a great time. Milk and shit in the brain. They
need All righty. The Last Emperor. Yeah, we were
on the communism point. And obviously that is
a connection between both movies. I mean, what's
interesting is like, I guess I don't know a lot
about Chinese history or the rise of communism
in China. Mao. Mao. Yeah, exactly. But like,
obviously that's like what the movie ends with,
right? Is Mao and the people marching through
the streets with the little red book and maybe
not ends with it. But this is another movie that
kind of like is bookended like 1900 where it
starts close to the end of the story with the
emperor as a prisoner, you know, and he's a traitor.
Very much reduced to just like a normal man among
one of the other prisoners and there's not really
anything different about him. He's anonymous.
He's anonymous. And then he tries to commit suicide
in a bathroom. He's not anonymous at that point.
Later he's anonymous. They know who he is, which
I wasn't sure if they did or not. But once you
figure out that they know who he is and that
obviously didn't factor in at all, that's really
wild. You're like, oh, okay. They know who this
guy is. Just one of the people. It's awesome.
It's very ideological. It's very like if you
let college students run things. You know what
I mean? No, for sure. But also, you know, it
makes sense in the new world. The authority of
the emperor and the empire being questioned.
And just like fascism rose up in Italy, communism
rose up in China for very similar reasons. Modernization.
Yeah. Yeah, most of that is modernization. And
so, I mean, both of these are totalitarian ideologies
and both the result of modernization, I think.
Just like... just a couple of different ways
of looking at it or like, yeah, if you like a
couple of different ways of responding to modernization,
because yeah, I guess like, I don't know. That's
the thing is like, I feel like the conversation
of fascism and socialism was much more present
in 1900 than it is in the last emperor. What's
interesting about the last emperor is it's like
very small compared to 1900. It's an epic. Like
it falls. That also, it's to me again, it's like,
The 1900 is the story of what happens on this
one kind of protected farm. You know what I mean?
There's no war happening there. Exactly, yeah,
yeah. And it's got the same fucking big red walls.
You know what I mean? Remember when they have
to paint the walls again at the end of 1900?
And they're like, get the red, more red, cover
the fascist logos. And it's like the exact same
red as the walls of the temple. Yeah, yeah. I
do think it's interesting how in 1900 the smallness
is interesting as well. where they are rebelling
against the hand that feeds them. They're kind
of striking and rebelling against this small
group of Padronis. But I guess in 1900, it begins
to expand, and their little local thing becomes
a little bit more part of a bigger thing, because
that's also kind of what's happening with the
Padronis as well. The Padronis are also having
their Bilderberg meeting in the church where
they get together, and they're all like, we're
just going to work together, right? To make sure
that, because we all need this work of rebellion
to be suppressed. And yeah, I don't think you
see as much of that in The Last Emperor, but
I do think both stories are small, but they imply
bigger things. I think there's a good deal of
that in The Last Emperor, too. It's just sort
of hidden from Puyi. I think he's much like Alfredo.
He's in this extremely privileged place. Far
more than Alfredo, obviously. Yeah, yeah. And
that kind of defines his personality and his
interests. I mean, he is more, like the thing
that's highlighted, I like the Peter O'Toole's
in this movie. Yeah, yeah. And he's like the
British guy who comes in to like teach. Scottish.
Oh, sorry. Yeah, he's a Scottish guy who like
comes in to teach Puyi some culture. I mean,
those are some of the most fun scenes in the
movie. Puyi is a very enjoyable character at
the beginning when he's young, and he gets more
and more miserable and insufferable as the movie
goes on. Yeah, but I don't know, man. He's pretty
shitty, too. He's just happy because he's being
spoiled when he's young. No, no, he's funny.
He's pretty young when he makes his... He's always
a piece of shit. Puyi is kind of not a likable
character as a person. But he makes the eunuch
drink the ink when he's young. Yeah, it's shitty.
He's a shitty person. But it's fun. It's a fun
scene. That probably killed him, right? Maybe.
Possibly. I don't know. Apparently one of the
things that this movie just doesn't emphasize
or really underreports even is how brutal he
was, especially when he was really young, just
having eunuchs beaten for fun and really enjoyed
the torture of people, apparently. They should
have just gone all the way because I found him
really unlikable. The thing is, I still think
that's gotten across in the scene where he makes
the guy drink the ink. That's brutal. Oh, that's
fucked, dude. He's probably going to die, yeah.
That probably encapsulates as much of my memory
of the movie as it does that guy's memory of
his life. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, that's
fucked up, dude. It's powerful enough that it
can stand in for all of the torture of all of
the people. That I'm sure he did do, you know?
It's implied because, you know, you can see just
like how he treats them in front of guests. He's
like, he's trying to impress the other kid with
like what he can do and what power is because
the kid's like questioning his power and saying,
you're not really the emperor anymore, which
is like technically true. But they hid that from
him. That's the whole thing. Apparently it was
along with his like discovery that he was sort
of. imprisoned and not the emperor that he increasingly
was more uh sadistic yeah that makes sense um
according to some sources i don't know you know
but yeah yeah i mean that makes sense but it
really is like he is a pretty great representation
of a victim who is a monster right like you can't
really justify his actions who he is his personality
but like but he's not really an adult either
yeah yeah Like he did bad things and all that,
but like he's never, he's not Olmo. You know
what I mean? No, exactly. He's never really,
he's never lived in a real world. Yeah. He's
like an Alfredo. He never developed. Yeah, it's
like he's not socialized. He doesn't really like,
yeah. And to me, like watching this movie recently,
like it just really stands out to me. They're
like, oh man, Puyi is like kind of. all of us
like in the west you know what i mean at least
in america where it's just kind of like we've
got this sort of isolation from all of its collapsing
around us you know what i mean and like this
idea of ourselves that we're holding on to is
kind of just a farce to like make us feel okay
with all of these things that are being i don't
know stripped away like it's There's something
about The Last Emperor that really resonates
with me. And I think also with 1900. It's these
real tidal shifts of cultures, things. And to
me, it really resonates to be on the farm, supposedly
isolated from that shift or in the Forbidden
City. Like you're being stripped of power and
your country is being sold. And like, you know
what I mean? Like by the end of this movie, he's
just hanging out with the Japanese who are the
people that are actually at the time doing like
the rape of Nanking or whatever. Like, you know
what I mean? It's actually the type of atrocities
they're pulling off is like, they're just like,
they're just. guys competing to see how many
heads they can cut off and people just like raping
and killing people like one after the next, after
the next. They were brutal. It's very well known
and documented that they were brutal. Yeah. The
most brutal in the almost ancient. It's really,
that's a very interesting part of the story is
the, cause you know, that like, you know, did
a little bit of light research on just. Cause
I was like, wanting to know like, what, where
does this even happen in time? And it's like,
okay, so this is the end of the King, the King
dynasty or the King dynasty, which basically
like controlled China for most of its pre -modern
existence or whatever, you know? So it's interesting
to see a movie right now about the end of an
empire, about the dying days of, something that
had influence and identity. And yeah, that it
is like, it's basically already ended when Puyi
is born. No, I know. But like, he's being hid
from the fact that it's changed and still being
sold this idea that things are the way they were.
And like, he's the king. Yeah. And so, yeah,
you're right. Like that really resonates right
now. Like watching this while seeing the decline
of the American empire and just like the behavior
of Trump as a child and all this kind of stuff.
And this really just maladjusted. thing that
is the rot of america kind of like the chickens
coming home to roost or whatever that like it's
happened in so many societies before so many
empires and cultures affluent cultures but like
trump feels just as shielded from it all as like
the average person does like he also feels like
a person who just like doesn't really know what's
going on He is a, like, king who doesn't really
have as much. Like, I know this gives him more,
you know, like, I think he's a big boy. He's
responsible for decisions he makes. But, like,
the kid in this movie, like, does he even make
decisions? Is there any political thing he's
privy to? The movie doesn't actually ever, like,
show him. He wants to make reforms. Yeah. But
he wants to reform the Forbidden City. Like,
he's already not in charge of China. Yeah, he
wants to reform the Forbidden City and the prison
that he's been put in. or whatever so it's like
is that trump right now like the only thing you
could do is like build a ballroom like i want
some reform and it's uh it's gonna be a ballroom
that i build here with like a state of the art
you know it's just like it's stupid it's like
it is like very what's actually happening in
china is you know there's like several changes
of power you know outside the walls you just
basically just hear explosions happening and
whatever but it's like Yeah, there's other people
who are actually running the show. It's just
that, like, he's the emperor. Yeah, puppet emperor,
which he's referred to as, especially retrospectively.
He has no respect. He grows up and just becomes
more and more powerless until he's actually just
like one of the, yeah, just a nobody. Until he's
actually just dissolved into Maoist communist
China. It's true. He becomes a communist. He's
just dissolved. He just becomes a citizen, a
nameless. faceless citizen and that to me is
so romantic like it's so it's weird because it
also like feels oppressive and fascistic and
like it's aesthetically displeasing you know
what i mean totally yeah the communist takeover
that he goes through but it also it almost again
it feels almost like communist propaganda again
where it's like it does feel like it's good for
him you know yeah the really all puy really needed
was to just be uh fruit salesman or whatever
in some faceless chinese town i'm trying to look
at that right now because that's like i'm blanking
a little bit i'm like he's like i guess at the
end he's a botanist he's a botanist yeah yeah
sure he's like taking care of he's like taking
care of some plants yeah i don't know that's
what he always needed to be he's a lowly botanist
he's wearing his gray he's wearing his gray work
clothes you have that like imagine scene where
he's like talking to that kid He's like, oh yeah,
I used to be the last, I was the last emperor
of China. Here, look at my cricket. Yeah, exactly.
It's like overly romantic. And so, yeah, it goes
all the way into the 60s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He
lives until like 60, what? Seven? 67, yeah. I
think that's in the last, the last words of the
movie is like, he was the last emperor of China
and he died in 1967. He gets power again for
a moment. The Japanese, like, reestablish him
as a puppet emperor again. Yeah, but this is
the leader of Manchuria, which, like, was a puppet
empire so that they could loot Manchuria, the
Japanese could loot Manchuria. Exactly, yeah,
yeah. But that's also because he's being handled.
He's also got that supposed cousin who's his
handler who comes in and gets his wife addicted
to the opium and starts eating her pussy and
turning everybody on him. You know what I mean?
He gets destroyed by his handler, his Japanese
handler, to sell his country out to the Japanese,
which again resonates with America. Not so much
the Japanese. Yeah, and he refuses to sign the
paperwork that will make... You know what I mean?
It's almost like the scene Atlas Shrugged. Yeah,
the scene from The Victim. Yeah, where you have
to give consent to your destruction. In Atlas
Shrugged, it's like, no, that's the one thing
I won't do. You'll have to do it by force. I'm
not going to give consent to what you're doing.
But he refuses to sign the thing. He makes a
big stand and speech where everybody walks out
on. And then they, like, come to him while he's
at dinner and, like... And they're like, yeah,
we know your wife got fucked by somebody else.
Exactly. Like, they just, like, we know your
wife got fucked by somebody else and then he
signs it. It's, like, so pathetic. Yeah. Yeah.
And then they just destroy it. They abort the
kid and then she's just addicted to opiums and
destroyed for the rest of the movie. Mm -hmm.
Because... Yeah, the Japanese did that to her
like they did to tons of Chinese. Yeah. I really
like that shot where they're all waiting for
the streetlight. This is like a new thing. They're
all so obedient of it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The light that turns red and then they go? Yeah,
yeah, yeah. It's a green light and then it turns
red and they all go. It's green, yellow, red?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that because they're communists?
Yeah, exactly. It's so weird, dude. America turns
communist. Do we have to switch all of the lights?
Is that the first step to becoming, turning red?
Turning red. Turning red. Oh boy. But anyway,
that's the end of the movie where like they're
looking at the light. It turns red. He's like
the botanist. He's like shopping for. i don't
know corn or something and then like then the
parade goes by the reds and the pictures of mao
and all that yeah i mean there's tons of red
flags at the end of 1900 too if you remember
red flags until the 60s but also that's the thing
though is like that's the scene that's the part
where um he recognizes that man who was kind
to him when he was a prisoner He's wearing like
a dunce cap or whatever. And this is another
imagined sequence because essentially if you
saw these people being berated in China and then
you like stepped in and they would just be like,
all right, you're one of them. And that'd be
it. So people would literally just like watch
their fathers being beaten to death and like
have to yell and point and laugh at him while
they killed their family members in front of
them. That was actually my thought watching that
scene where I was kind of like, I really thought
they were just going to arrest him. And they
don't. The reason, the reason the screenwriter
says that he did that basically for, you know,
emotional screenwriting reason, like, you know
what I mean? It's like, he wanted to show obviously
that the emperor liked that guy in the end. And
he's like, no, no. Why is a good guy getting
taken out? It's like, well, because these purges
have to just think there's a constant, I don't,
I don't know what exactly is being represented
in that, which purge of which thing or whatever,
but it's like, that's how communism works. It's
just like a constant culling of the herd and
whatever. And so like, yeah, the guy who was
in charge of you at the thing is now. like and
all the people who were who have him imprisoned
and whatever and they're like yelling at him
confess confess whatever they're all like fucking
19 years old they're all like kids it's the next
generation it's like every the next generation
is obviously gonna be like yeah well that last
one was evil and like fuck all of you who were
in charge then and actually you should go to
jail and you'll be the ones and like that's it's
the the constant turnover yeah and then isn't
the actual like ending ending like it goes even
farther in the future he goes to his home he
goes to the temple and he's like i used to live
here i used to be the emperor he shows the kid
a thing but then the last shot is like the other
imagined sequence because apparently he'd never
returned to the temple but yeah but then the
last shot is actually like even farther in the
future where it's now like a museum and there's
like tourists there yeah it's modern day yeah
yeah that girl comes in with a blow horn playing
yankee doodle yeah yeah exactly he was the last
emperor of China and he died in 1967 it's a nuts
ending it's like very anticlimactic but after
this weird kind of magical realism thing that
is so cheesy after such a like non -magical realism
movie like you know what i mean yeah it's really
weird and again like that resonates i think with
the end of 1900 where sure yeah yeah there's
something so romantic about this thing but he's
also under my i don't know there's something
there's something about the godardness of it
too there's something about his relationship
to movies that are you know seducing you versus
overtly dictating to you um and the whole french
new waveness of his sort of career i don't have
an opinion on the king dynasty and the communist
takeover it's like i wonder if like i mean the
dynasty lasted a very long time so i don't know
so there's like there always seems to be arguments
to be made for like the traditional way things
were ruled and how sustainable they were and
how long things lasted but like i guess that
was also a world that wasn't like this is what
happens if they were to modernize yeah exactly
there is no other world where where you modernize
and have kings like you have to either eliminate
the worker or the worker has to take over. You
know what I mean? Yeah. That seems to be the
inevitable thing. We're like... The workers have
to own it or you have to take out the workers.
You can no longer be in an equilibrium with the
worker and the owner and the master and the slave.
That's done in modernism. Yeah, because what
neither movie states is necessary. It doesn't
necessarily say that the status quo was better
before things changed. Maybe it was better. I
don't know. Maybe it was better, but it wasn't
perfect, right? I mean, he definitely highlights
problems and cruelty of those times, but he also
does paint it as romantically as he paints everything
else. That's the thing. All of the ideas he just
seems totally seduced by, as much as he seems
totally seduced by everybody and super horny
for everybody all the time. Everything is as
romantic as possible all the time. Yeah, for
sure. And we didn't even get to the music, but,
like, Morconi does the music of 1900, which is,
like... One of his best scores. Yeah, dude, it's
great. But The Last Emperor, too. Yeah, I mean,
David Byrne's a part of it, but there's also...
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is it? There's a Chinese
composer and, yeah, three people or something,
but... Yeah, combination, but... But, yeah, I
don't know, man. Like... Yeah, there really isn't
an Olmo in this movie, right? It does feel way
more on the Alfredo side of things, but he's
even more imprisoned than Alfredo was. When Peter
O'Toole comes in, it's said explicitly he's a
prisoner in his own home, and he can't even leave.
He can't really have a connection to anything.
It's all about maintaining this illusion in this
isolated... bubble and yeah like going back to
what you said about like this resonating yeah
like many millennials were born and raised in
a time when things were pretty prosperous and
they were sort of promised that things were going
to be really good and that like you know like
america was on top of things and we had our shit
together basically you know like there they really
was i remember this feeling i remember this idea
is like oh man we're america and like we have
power globally and like there are lots of riches
to go around and there's opportunity and people
are coming here to find opportunity that we have
moral superiority and we deserve to lead the
world and just realizing as you grow older that
it's all kind of a lie and it's all there's like
a facade there's a rot that's been growing for
a long time that you were shielded from and right
that like maybe even started before you were
born yeah that did honestly the battle was already
lost before you were born and then it's like
exactly why were you promising this shit but
people weren't getting behind it yet because
like the rhetoric follows the reality right it's
like the reality has to become really real before
the rhetoric can match it you know like everybody
has to be feeling it and um that's when it can
kind of become part of the popular cultistness
and lead to revolution and change and all this
kind of stuff like capitalism has been really
good at anesthetizing people And things can get
pretty bad without people doing shit about it.
But the isolation is the biggest weapon of all,
just making sure people can't unify and that
there aren't communities or there isn't the ability
to organize in any way. But then, yeah, even
if you did organize, what do you build in replacement
of what you tear down? And that's the kind of
fallacy of the communism being any better than
the fascism or whatever, right? but yeah essentially
we were all sold this lie and then like we realized
that like you know we all like i said before
you know graduating out into the recession we
also had 9 -11 when we were like you know in
middle school or something like that that was
a big shock and kind of like oh wow there's like
stuff going on and i don't really why this happened
you know what i mean a kind of wake -up call
moment and the recession and covid and yada yada
yada and there's just been like really, really
bad politicians. And yeah, we've just seen this
decline. It just seems to become more and more
evident as time goes on. And it is because of
these oligarchs who actually don't care about
this country because they're global elite people.
You know what I mean? They're all just like doing
their global elite business bullshit. And like,
it doesn't, what's the, what's the line? Like,
he says the forbidden city had become a theater
without an audience. So why did the actors remain
on the stage? It was only to steal the scenery
piece by piece. And like, then they, you know,
set the, the storeroom on fire or whatever to,
to hide how much they had stolen and blah, blah,
blah. Yeah. Because like he actually, that's
what's happening is. Even the eunuchs are just
looting the Forbidden City. It's a sinking ship.
No, they don't have an idea of a Chinese emperor.
Even the guys who cut their dicks off or their
balls off to sacrifice their lives for this guy
or whatever, they still don't believe in him
more than they believe in capitalism or whatever,
or communism, whatever it is. No, they're just
play -acting, yeah. They're looting. No, yeah,
and that also really just reminds me of... What's
going on right now is that we just do have a
bunch of looters in our government, people who
don't care about this country. They can go anywhere,
live anywhere, and they have allies around the
world, and it's just a whole, like, elite world
they exist in that has nothing to do with the
rest of us, and they're just cutting us all out.
All right, so just loot the forbidden city that
is, you know, America. Yeah, exactly. And eventually
rise to global power elsewhere. And, yeah, like,
I guess in this, like, in, you know, Trump is
one of the looters himself. I guess in this story,
the emperor is kind of a victim. All this has
been hidden from him. And yeah, it is a story
of his powerlessness. try to change things or
like as he matures he thinks like oh well he
needs more agency but also he's just like brought
a lot he's given his values by you know his japanese
handler too well that's much later that's much
later they're desecrating the graves of our ancestors
so they're the bad ones so like fuck the chinese
let's join the japanese and it's like okay, yeah,
let's sell out my people because this girl told
me they're desecrating the graves of the ancestors
that I never met and don't care about. You know
what I mean? Yeah, exactly. He's given his values
by these other people too. At least some of them
came from Reginald Johnson, but a lot of them
just come from the party and whatever, the powers
that be, people outside of his, people who are
looting his own power structure. Yeah, Peter
O'Toole's character is, He's trying to instill
some Western values onto him. Right. And he tries
to get him to leave to come to the British embassy
in the end, too. But for some reason, he's caught
by the Russians. But I think it's largely because
he's handled by the people who are handling him.
And they keep him there as the king because in
the West, he's just a person. Yeah, exactly.
I think he really kind of sucks the whole movie.
He's not really a character. The only reason
you can empathize with him is because you understand
why he is that way, because he hasn't really
had a choice. He is a kind of victim, but that
doesn't make him very likable. It doesn't really
overcome any of that, and he just continues to
be sort of cruel and selfish and ego -driven
and never uses his power or status to make any
real change. I think a lot of that's the result
of his... Yeah, he's just too privileged. Just
like Alfredo. Exactly, yeah, yeah. When he gets
put in prison, he's like, I've never been separated
from my family before. He's like, well, you better
get used to it. The whole thing where he's spying
through the keyhole, and even though he's in
prison, he still has servants. He's like, I can't
even, you can't do anything for yourself. You've
never washed yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn't
know how to tie his shoes. Yeah, can you drive?
Like, I've had this thought about Trump before,
too. Like, I wonder if Trump can even drive.
Like, he's probably been chauffeured around his
whole life. And it's, like, weird. Like, when
you think about these things, where it's like,
what is actual privilege? Like, being waited
on hand and foot? The movie doesn't present that
lifestyle as anything. But there is a rot that
that causes. Yeah, there's a rot that causes.
This is where, like, the communist sort of part
of the movie kind of... See, maybe communism
is good because it will just, like, level the
playing field. Right, right. I mean, part of
it is that the bourgeoisie are not happy being
the bourgeoisie. You know what I mean? Like,
that's part of the thing in both of these movies
that I think is interesting. It's because of
the rise of modernism and the fall of the bourgeoisie
class that they're a part of and blah, blah,
blah. But... Also, all of the modernism that's
introduced in 1900, the painting that they're
looking at, the surrealism of the painting and
the whatever, like their erotic photography or
the music or the new woman and stuff like all
that. What does that actually contribute? These
kind of empty, sad people that don't, you know
what I mean? Versus the Olmos. And that's similarly
explored in The Last Emperor where it's like,
dude, the privilege of... That life is, yeah,
there are guys smelling his poop every morning
to make sure it smells right. Like, every single
thing is, you know. Oh, shout out to the scene
where they massage the asshole of the horse.
Oh, yeah, 1900. Yeah, to get the fresh poop.
He's like, this is a beautiful pile of poop.
And they, like, shove it in his face. The blood
and cum and milk and shit. Yeah, dude, yeah.
Yeah. It's something else. I love it, dude. I
love it. 1900 is like... It's sweaty. You can
smell it. It's messy. It's a messy movie. It's
life. It's life. The Last Emperor actually shows
the much more conservative thing because in 1900,
even though they're the aristocrats, they live
in a very dirty world. That's, like, very close
to the dirtiness of reality. Like, they get to
go inside and live in their nice house, sit in
their nice furniture, drink their milk out of
nice saucers or whatever, but the ugliness of
what provides that is right there. And that,
like, can be humanizing for maybe the older pejones
who are, like, actually built this thing or understand
it or whatever, like, have relationships with
these workers, but then it just gets passed down
to people who have, like, no understanding. They
just have the privilege. They were born and raised
on the privilege, and they actually can't push
this thing forward. They can only exploit it.
We didn't even talk. Was it passed down? Like,
why did they have to rewrite that will to give
it to Alfredo's father? He just never wrote it.
He just never wrote it. Yeah. That's just crazy.
He never wrote it. Well, you think that maybe
he like didn't leave it to him or something like,
you know what I mean? I don't know. That is an
interesting scene where they have to pretend
that he's still alive and that he's reading out
the will. Right. Like, why didn't he have the
will written out? Who was he planning to give
it to? And I guess the law wasn't such that it
would be automatically given to his next of kin.
Was the problem that he is the father of Olmo
and that he came first and so he was the owner
of the land and it was for Olmo or something?
You know what I mean? I don't know. Yeah, I don't
think it's something like that. Who knows? I
mean, clearly he's fucking girls on the ranch.
Like maybe that is something he does. He's like,
I can't get it up anymore. I can't do what I
used to do. Like, you know, they're dancing around
out there doing their fertility ritual and they're
all going to be fucking like rabbits later. There's
no way he hasn't taken advantage of this thing
many times before or whatever. And it's like,
maybe he did fuck Olmo's mom and whatever. Like,
I don't know. Who knows, man? It's possible.
Sure. Sure. But yeah, I mean, if he was, if he
was a bastard of the Pajone, then. But I mean,
also in The Last Emperor, like his birth is weird
too, because you see him just be handed to this
woman and she's like, you're her mother now.
And then his real mother disappears and like
isn't in the Forbidden City until you hear that
she died because she ate a ball of opium. Well,
he gets reintroduced to her before that, but
there's no like. There's nothing that happens.
That's true, he does. And his wet nurse slash
his songbird or whatever he calls her. No, no,
no. His butterfly. His butterfly. She gets taken
away from him. That's one of the best lines.
She's not my wet nurse. She's my butterfly. That's
such a Bertolucci, dude. It's like, let's just
get a child to suck on tits and then talk about
who he's in love with. This beautiful woman.
Like, it's very weird. Yeah, who's older than
him. And, like, perverted. And in a PG -13 movie
that has tits and child penis. That was all very
La Luna as well, for sure. But she's not his
literal mom. Though, I don't know. Yeah. It's,
like, uncomfortable stuff to deal with. Also,
apparently there's a lot of speculation that
Puyi, in reality, was actually gay. Oh. Oh, yeah.
Or at least that sexuality with women was not
one of... the wives or whatever said that he
only had sex twice in his adult life or something
like i don't know there's like speculation on
his sexuality and whatnot and i think it's interesting
the way that the movie just like has him I don't
know. He has that like anonymous sex with the
two girls at the same time where he says that
the eunuchs taught him this game. Yeah. Yeah.
The eunuchs taught me this game. I try to figure
out who's who. It feels very like Brave New World
where like sexuality is something that you get
out as a child. Yeah. And it's like. They have
kids' orgies and stuff in the Brave New World
and blah, blah, blah, so that adults are like,
oh, that's just kids' shit. Like, we're beyond
the sexuality aspect of life because... Yeah,
exactly. That makes sense. Because they were
molested in the way that the state wanted them
to be molested to make them conditioned. Yeah,
it's bizarre. But his sexuality remains like
a sort of bizarre subject that I think is probably
what attracted Bertolucci to the movie is like
thinking about his childhood. and all this sexuality
stuff and the two wives and the whatever. That's
true. It's like, what even defines his sexuality?
And like, yeah, he's very weird. He's like, he
almost seems like he's an asexual or something.
He doesn't feel like a very, he doesn't feel
like a sexual being. I do love when he's, you
know, like 13 years old and he's got the 17 year
old, uh, older girl just kissing on him. And
he's like, Oh yeah, actually this works. I mean,
I'm into this. Well, yeah, but that's also, I
don't like this wife. She sucks. And then it's
like, Oh wait, A 17 -year -old girl can impress
a 13 -year -old boy very easily. That's also
part of an arranged marriage, though. They're
showing him these cards. Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Like, there's this girl, and there's this girl,
and she's 12, and she's 15, and whatever. I think
the girl he gets is the oldest one, like 17 or
something. Right, but then he also gets a 12
-year -old. Then he also gets a 12 year old as
his like concubine. Yeah. He has both of them.
Cause he's 14 or something. And I think that
Bertolucci on the commentary says that he like
exaggerated those age gaps or something. I don't
know exactly. Oh really? Like maybe the first
time they had sex, he was older or something
like that. Like I don't exactly remember the
thing, but there's some slight exaggeration of
that age gap situation too. Yeah. For basically
kink effect. Like I think a lot of it, um, when
it comes to Bertolucci is it'll be more sensual
and weird if it what if she is a lot older and
he just like doesn't really know and all he's
done is been with a bunch of eunuchs so oh what
would that be like of course that would be so
interesting to Bertolucci yeah exactly exactly
it's just two boys Just a hole -in -the -pocket
communist. It's a PG -13 movie, and it's very,
like, horny for a PG -13 movie. I mean, actually,
you know, I wouldn't even say it's, like, the
characters are not really, but the movie is.
You know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. I guess
just as, like, we haven't talked about the visuals
much at all. Like, I guess I said, like, Brutalooch
is very colorful, very romantic, very painterly.
But the scene where they're having sex under
the silk blanket is pretty awesome. I don't know.
There's so many visual moments in this movie
that are very, very beautiful, almost more so
than 1900. I like when she covers him with the
kisses, though, with all the lipstick marks and
stuff. That's very weird and sensual. That's
when he's first introduced to her, I'm pretty
sure. And that's what I was going to say. She's
like, well, look at my face, see what you think.
And he really approves of her face, I guess.
She takes it off, and he's like, oh, yeah, I
can do this. This is fine. But I thought that
this one has a funny face. I don't know if that
was her. He's looking at the pictures? Yeah,
I think that's when he's looking at the pictures.
Talking about the modernism, though, another
detail I really liked in this movie is how they're
really disapproving of him getting spectacles.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, I like that
moment. And that's also a Western thing, because
Peter O'Toole's advocating for him to get spectacles.
Pretends that he's going to go blind if he doesn't
get them. Yeah, he's going to go blind. And they're
just like, dude, I don't care. He's like, you
don't care if he goes blind because you don't
want him to see. It's like a crazy double meaning,
I guess. But you don't want him to know that
you're stealing shit. And then that is when the
store catches fire and all that stuff. Yeah,
which is we had to hide this shit that they've
been stealing. But I mean, he's also, like I
was saying, he's not even entitled to any of
this. It's so bizarre that he's just a kid that
was put in a place that is being looted and he's
supposedly... The king? Because it's not like
the queen was his mom or anything, you know?
There's some connection to the royal blood or
whatever enough that this member of this family
was chosen or whatever. But like, I don't know.
It is really weird. It is suspect. I don't really
get that either. Who was his mom? Well, the woman,
the previous empress that apparently killed the
previous emperor because he was trying to do
reforms, which is what, what's his name? Peter
O'Toole says. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, that's true.
But then she probably chose Puyi in order to
like have a child there so that there wouldn't
be reform. Like so that the person that followed
her. wouldn't immediately reform things yeah
change things that she like yeah basically they
just yeah it was a puppet they put him there
because they knew it would be easy to control
yeah just be a puppet if you have a yeah king
or emperor who doesn't have any vision or any
like doesn't even understand what they're in
charge of yeah exactly except for the values
that you give him and the things and the few
things that he has which is like He's heterosexual
or homosexual, and he can, you know, appease
that. And he's a sadist, so he can torture his
eunuchs. And, like, he's hungry, like, so he
can appreciate luxuries like food and, you know,
whatever. But other than, like, base things,
his values and, like, who he even considers his
country or his people, like, those are kind of
up for debate. I don't know. It's weird to me
that he feels connected to this dynasty at all
as somebody who's not. There's no blood to the
person that appointed him. So he actually is
like a representation of just the death of that
whole entire thing because he's not even really
that thing. It's just like a farce. Right. And
he's just a creation of the people who already
took over that. And they, and they, and they
all know it's a forest, like the people who are
looting and all the units and they control it.
And he has no actual agency and can't really
make any decisions and can't go outside. Right.
There's that flashback moment too, where he like,
when he's older and he says like, open the gates
when he's like chasing after his wife who gets
taken. Right. Yeah, man. I mean, it's such a
tragic story, and he's, like, a really tragic
character, but he also, like, is never allowed
to grow a personality or identity you can actually,
like, understand in a way or, like, identify
with. Like, it's so weird. Like, he's such a,
like, weird alien for most of the movie. Yeah.
You know, a man is whatever room he is in or
whatever. It's the external locus of identity,
Eastern thing. And even though Peter O'Toole
is, like... Not the individual. peter o'toole's
heart's in the right place but like he's also
just a dude who's like projecting his own kind
of ideologies and plans for this case like he's
the loneliest boy in the world he's the only
one who can't go outside and it's like i'm trying
to be reasonable here and it's like well we don't
really care dude because we're making money and
we got all the food we need and like we're just
trying to keep this thing together you think
that's what like all the people um on zora ranch
are doing right now who are still like maintaining
the epstein estate even though he's gone What,
up the street from you? Yeah, up the street from
me. What are they doing up there? You've been
going by Zorro Ranch? I mean, people have been
investigating it and stuff. You've been paying
a visit? No, I haven't made a visit. But they
were doing construction there and stuff. Things
have been going on there post -death. I have
no idea, man. But it's very bizarre that there
are certain people who die and their thing doesn't
really die with them. It has to be managed. And,
like, I don't know. You don't need, like, a puppet
Epstein or whatever, but, like, it kind of feels
like, you know, an empire is dying. It almost
doesn't matter who's in control of it. Like,
it's being looted. Like, the ship is going down.
Yeah, I don't know, man. It's a republic with
a president. Also, is that just, like, an interim
period? So, like, the empire falls and it becomes
a republic with a president, but then it becomes...
A communist state? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. There's
like several... Lots of turmoil. I'm not super
versed or whatever, but there's several years
of changing power between lots of different guys
and blah, blah, blah. But the communist state
is post -World War II, which makes sense, right?
Because the Japanese have a momentary expansion
of their empire into Manchuria and all that shit,
but they lose the war. That's the other thing,
too, is that the one -armed guy... You know,
the Japanese, like, I can't remember if he's,
like, the president or, like, just the guy who's,
like, the spokesman, but he, like, ends up killing
himself upon hearing the news of the... Yeah.
And I guess he's the guy that his girl is working
with, doing the double agent. Yep. His handler.
His handler. Damned if you do and damned if you
don't. But yeah, it's a good movie. I definitely
thought it was a little bit more like, I thought
1900 was so much fun to watch. Last Emperor has
a bit more of a, like, I don't know, it has a
bit more of like a third act slog or something
where things get a little bit miserable and you're
just kind of like, man. Yeah. I mean, when he's
dealing with the Japanese and his wife's just
eating flowers. Yeah, she's crying and eating
flowers. And then gets knocked off by her driver
and then gets forced to board. And he's like,
you're an empress. Don't you know what that means?
It's like, what the fuck? What the fuck are you
doing, you idiot? I'm an empress. You're an emperor.
Are you fucking retarded? Like, when are you
going to fucking? But also, that's literally
all he's ever been. Exactly, dude. He's not been
outside. Like, he's the only person that you
could kind of understand is like. Oh, wait, he's
not doing this for clout. He's doing this because
that's what being a person is. Exactly. You know
what I mean? Exactly. He's like, this is what
I'm supposed to do. To me, like, that honestly,
like, that has so much to do with America. You
know what I mean? It's only because of his bizarre
privilege that you could justify, like, the insanity
of the way that he's behaving. it makes no actual
sense logically or any, like you're clearly being
put up as a puppet by people who are like going
to literally use your people as like meat. Like,
you know what I mean? It's like the least honorable
possible. It's, it's a Havara agreement or something.
And it's indefensible. It's just indefensible.
And he should be able to see that, but it's just
the fact that he's been brought up in a way where
the whole purpose is to not let him see that,
that he can continue to make this mistake. Yeah,
and that does feel like very end of empire shit.
It's almost weird that you almost could have
predicted it when it comes to America in the
90s. You almost could have predicted that this
was like a dying gasp. Things weren't actually
getting better. This is just like the last gasp
of an empire. And after this, it's just kind
of like decline, you know, because basically
the Pandora's box is open that allows this thing
just be looted by oligarchs without accountability.
And it's just going to drive it into the fucking
ground. And it's like, yeah, I don't know how
it survives that. It does move on. It changes.
But America is going to continue to be around
or whatever. Just like England's still around
and Russia's still around. I don't know, man.
That revolution may be coming. The question is
just if it lasts. But America, we haven't had
that. We had the American Revolution, sure. I'm
saying, man, we have something coming, and this
might be the beginning of it, the end of this
empire and a new way for our country. But I think
something will change. We'll become a different
country. Maybe we do become a more socialist
country or whatever. I have no idea. But the
point is it will change. It's kind of just part
of history. It's just what needs to happen. It's
part of this kind of progression of events that
we see mirrored throughout history and in these
movies and whatever. Just like what happens when
things become so out of balance and things become
so exploitative. Something's got to give eventually.
So there could be a lot of pain. There could
be a lot of destruction. And there already is.
We are also fortunate that even if we see global
decline, the damage that's been done already
has led to. Gas prices over $4 that we're probably
going to see for a year. But we still like only
get that kind of, you know, like there's going
to be like mass famine in Africa and like there's
going to be tons of death in the year to come
because of the war and the supply chains that
have dried up and the energy crisis that's happening
in so many countries now. Sure, but that's just
like the machine guns that we'll overhear while
we're playing tennis. Exactly, exactly. And so
we still, we are still this emperor. We are still
this child emperor. And I think that's the thing.
We're more somewhere in the middle of the story.
We're not the baby anymore. you know, we've realized
the lie. And I think we're in that stage in the
middle of his journey where we're trying to make
demands and we're trying to ask for reform. We're
just torturing. We're just like torturing. Eunuchs.
Yeah. Our eunuchs and our wives. Yeah. We'll
just torture them for a while. Because I think
most Americans are still hoping out for the big
win. Most Americas will sell out to like get
the empire back and to get riches back. And like
most America doesn't care about destroying some
third world country. If it means there, bank
account's going to be bigger and their 401ks
are going to grow or whatever it is, man. Manchuria
is not a third world country. I'm sorry. Manchuria
is part of China. I'm sorry. We're giving Texas
to China. I'm talking about China in the context
of this movie, but yes, China now is not a third
world country. I'm sorry, I'm talking about more
like we are willing to maybe destroy Iran if
that will lead to – not even that. That's not
even a third world country anymore. But like
that's the thing. It's like if somehow things
got better because we were destroying other countries,
people in this country wouldn't give a shit.
It's only because the people who produce things
in this country don't see anything coming back
to them and instead spent on pointless fucking
bullshit that doesn't affect anyone's fucking
lives here. It just gets to a point where it's
like the oligarchy class is out of control. You
guys don't think about us at all. Trump even
actually literally said that the other week where
it's like, do the American people even come into
your consideration when you're making these decisions?
He's like, no, I don't think about them at all.
Okay, Don Draper. He was trying to say that nothing
is more important than the nuclear weapon that
I imagined. Yeah, but that's stupid bullshit.
That's not a real thing. It's fighting the boogeyman.
But anyway, I don't know, man. Both very, very
fucking interesting movies. Both very enjoyable
to watch. I don't know if you have anything more.
No, I just, I really, the reason I really wanted
a pair of these was both of their sort of visions
of this sort of after the wave, you know what
I mean? Where you've got, yeah, the sort of little
communist revolution at the end of 1900, and
you've got their big communist revolution at
the end of The Last Emperor. Which are happening
around the same time, chronologically. I feel
like that's happening, like, to us soon. No,
I think you're right, man. I think you're right.
I don't know if it's going to be a communist
one necessarily or whatever, but like these things
of like, oh, wait, this thing that's been playing
out, like it's all going to be judged. Yeah,
exactly. And not by, you know, the Lord and Savior
on the day of judgment, but like maybe by your
peers. I mean, there's something coming. Yeah.
Maybe it is just an ideal that we're hoping that
that'll happen. Just like we're hoping that the
day of judgment will happen and that God is real.
I think it'll be the same as it ever was, where
there's going to be an awakening and there will
be turmoil, and it will lead to maybe a peace
for a little while, but the pejorne is still
alive, man. The pejorne lives. The pejorne lives.
The pejorne always lives. Well. I don't know.
I'd say that's that mattress, man. That's that.
That's that. Thank you.