See, I believe that all the mysteries of the
universe, all the answers to life's questions
can be found in a Spielberg film. I've been afraid
for all of my life. Why doesn't somebody just
shoot me in the head? Right up until the day
I knew my life was ending. You look bad. No,
man. You smell bad. I'm pretty fucking far from Ok.
Really, I feel like I'm sharing a very- Look at my shit. I had an affair- precious
moment with you. There are no nations. There are
no peoples. Are you threatening me, dick? You
don't approve. Fake. Well, too bad. Totally fake.
Did it seem fake? You look like a damn crackhead.
When my best friend was bitten in half in front if me, I found
this cover story personally embarrassing myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis
Everything but the little fishies. Alrighty,
welcome to Everything but the Little Fishies.
Welcome, welcome. I'm Evan. I'm Mike. And today,
we're going to be talking about a couple contemporary
movies for once. I mean, we've done it before,
but... First episode was a contemporary episode,
though. That was by Barbenheimer. At least it
was contemporary at the time. Yeah, and it kind
of established the format of continuing to pair
movies together. You know, it was a very ideal
starting point. I think sometimes, you know,
when movies come out at the same time and whatnot,
they're zeitgeist movies. They just, by default,
do interact with each other and talk about the
types of things that are in the zeitgeist and
whatnot. Absolutely, yeah. I agree. Yeah. So
with that being said, we're talking about Eddington
and One Battle After Another, both released in
2025. I saw One Battle After Another before Eddington.
And after watching it, a lot of people were talking
about Eddington and were saying like, have you
seen Eddington? And it was often in the context
of like. I didn't really like one battle after
another. I thought Eddington was better as if
these are like movies that are, you know, basically
the same, but you're just like aesthetically
inclined to like one or the other. Yeah. Yeah.
It's a no country for old men. Yeah. They're
both very much about this moment. You could say
the past five to 10 years. I think Eddington
is very, very explicitly, specifically about
the past five years. Yeah, obviously. And that's
not going over anyone's head, and that's part
of the reason why it's a divisive movie. People
just kind of feel like they're being pandered
to or something. But yeah, I don't know. We can
get into more of the similarities as we go. We'll
start with Eddington. I guess I will just say
up front that... I enjoyed the hell out of it.
I really just thought it was a very fun movie
to watch. It keeps moving. It never really gets
boring. And I really, really appreciate all the
kind of topics it's discussing. It feels like
it's a movie that's made for me in a lot of ways
or people like me. Sure. In a way, it almost
feels too much like me that it almost does feel
like pandering. I really feel like Ari Aster
would be a bit of a kindred spirit. I feel like
I would very much enjoy him as a person, hanging
out with him, talking to him. I think I could
be friends with Ari Aster. I think we have very
similar interests and stuff like that. Totally.
I'm not saying this as a way to be like, you
know. having a parasocial relationship or being
like, you know. I think Ari Aster and you have
a really special connection that he doesn't know
about yet. Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing
that like, yeah, I'm not weird fangirling over
him or whatever. It's just like, I don't really
know him. I just get the impression. that he
is the type of person I would enjoy talking to.
He's a dirtbag left guy. I think Dasha gave him
notes on Eddington and stuff. Really? Yeah, they're
in that scene. That's the thing. I don't really
think his movies are super didactic. I think
they leave a lot of room for interpretation,
and I don't think any of them make a very outright
explicit statement. There's a little bit of messiness.
To all of them, you know? I think I agree to
a certain extent, though I do think that he is
trying to make more of a statement than I think
somebody like Paul Thomas Anderson or I don't
know. Oh, I would agree. I feel like he's less
searching than he is creating. I don't know.
He's less searching than Paul Thomas Anderson.
Paul Thomas Anderson is way more searching. And
Ari Aster is a guy who has something he wants
to say and something he wants to talk about.
But I also think Ari Aster is intelligent enough
to look at what he's trying to say. He's intelligent
enough to have something to say, but he also
doesn't want to make his movie didactic. I think
he ends up being his own worst enemy and prankster
throughout the whole thing. He undermines his
own side. Yes, he undermines his own... his own
inclinations to be clean and tidy. There's something,
like, very clean and tidy about everything in
his movie, but then he fucks it all up somehow
with something. Or, like, just some weird surreal
stuff or whatever. Because, like, honestly, I
felt like Eddington was an insanely predictable
movie. I think you basically know exactly where
the movie is going to go after the first scene.
After we've all lived through it, yes. Like,
seeing it on screen, it's predictable. Yes and
no. I mean, there's a lot of different COVID
stories and whatever. They don't all end with,
you know, neighbors killing each other. And that's
probably actually not realistic or the case,
honestly, in most situations. So it's like, I
think there's a surreal heightened aspect to
Eddington and like the powder keg blowing up
thing that is like really fun. but gets less
and less reflective of reality as it goes in
a specific way. In a meta grand sense, I think
the movie is talking about something real, something
very interesting, but I think what it's talking
about is a broad, meta, big, cohesive point about
everything. It's not like a movie about COVID.
It's not a movie about... Black Lives Matter
and George Floyd. It's not a movie about capitalism
and colonialism. It's not a movie about cults
and pedophilia rings. It's not really a movie
that sinks its teeth into any one of these subjects
deeply, but all of these things are touched on
as a way of creating this macro picture. Just
like our culture isn't about any of those things,
right? Those things are part of the culture.
The movie, I would argue the movie is about,
there is still like a big bad thing that it's
all about in Eddington. Well, I do want to hear
my theory before you go into it, just as the
first viewer. What I was going to say is that
most of this movie was very predictable. I think
by the end of the first scene. I was kind of
like, I highly doubt this movie is going to subvert
the ending in which this all just gets worse
and worse and crazier and crazier and people
start dying and killing each other. Who dies
and specifically how the cards fall at the end,
I don't know. But the things that surprised me
about the movie are more like what topics are
going to be broached. Like what things is he
going to cover? And, like, you know, when Austin
Butler's character shows up and starts talking
about the pedophilia stuff and whatever, I was
like, oh, so this is in the movie, too. Yeah.
Okay. I didn't realize this was going to be touched
on. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of things it ends
up bringing up that I didn't think would be touched
on. And I feel, like, slightly disappointed in
some of those things and, like, how much time
was spent with those things or how much those
things connect to anything. But maybe it doesn't
matter that they don't. But what I realized,
the thing that surprised me the most is just
the movie being bookended by this thing about
the AI data center. Yes, exactly. It's solid
gold Magikarp. Solid gold Magikarp. Yeah, exactly.
So I think like, you know, there's a lot of details
in this movie. There's a lot of little things
that you could look at just like in Bo's Afraid.
The way that the technology is interacting with
everybody as well. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you
and I probably saw the same thing and maybe it's
kind of simple and obvious and many people saw
it, but like what this movie is about is actually
technology. It's just like, uh, everything else
is like, um, the fly and like everything else
we've been talking about. Yeah. It's like really
like, I think in my most galaxy brained take
of the movie, I think what's kind of being shown
here is, um, Well, first of all, solid gold Magikarp,
right? This is... Everyone knows that. Most people
know that Magikarp is a Pokemon or whatever,
but that's kind of irrelevant. The point is that,
like... Magikarp... Wait, so Magikarp's the one
that only can do Splash, right? Magikarp's not
as weak as Goldeen, but he's a pretty shitty
Pokemon. Sorry, never mind. I don't know. Solid
Gold Magikarp's a great name. Well, Ari Aster
didn't choose the Pokemon, and even though there
could be some intrigue to the specific use of
Magikarp in the evolution of Gyarados as some
kind of metaphor for the rise of AI or something,
really Solid Gold Magikarp is the name of something
in the AI community. It's the phenomenon of glitch
tokens. So, you know, essentially the way a large
language model learns is that, like, it gets
fed data and information, but it doesn't get
fed direct human language. The human language
needs to first be translated into a binary code
that the computer can understand. And what they
call this is tokenization. And so, like, you
know, you tell ChatGPT, say all these words back
to me. apple and then it'll say apple and so
what's happening is like you know you say apple
the word a tokenizer transmits that word into
binary code the ai reads the binary code and
then it looks into its data set to see if it
can find a matching code set which would be apple
it's been trained on the word and knows what
it is and then it can repeat it back to you but
somebody typed solid gold magic harp in all is
one word And essentially when this phrase gets
turned into a token, it becomes a data set that
like the large language model just doesn't understand.
It essentially, it's something that has never
been trained on before. Like this concept of
like a solid gold Magikarp and all is one word
too with like, you know, each. First word is
capitalized. And, you know, essentially this
is just the name of the phenomenon when you type
something into an AI model that it hasn't been
trained on and doesn't know what to do with the
information. And so what it does do with the
information is it'll either hallucinate. We've
seen that before. We've talked about that before.
Almost anyone who uses something out of whole
cloth. Yeah. Anyone who uses AI has experienced
this by now. The other thing it does is it just
starts. rambling, saying gibberish, absurdities.
And the other thing it can do is actually start
talking aggressively. It can use harsh language
towards the user. So it's basically representative
of when an AI model is presented with something
that it has no way of interacting with, no preceding
programming for, like new inputs, basically.
Yeah, yeah, something it hasn't been trained
on. Right. It doesn't have common sense. It can't
think of the most human response to that. It's
essentially just glitching. It's essentially
just glitching out, yeah, because it doesn't
know what to do with the information, but it
needs to do something. It needs to respond in
some way. So this started to make me think about
a lot of things that seem to connect and align
and that mirror one another when it comes to
this data center and the town that's right next
to it i mean it's even shown visually like the
town that first shot of the town when the when
the vagrant like walks upon the town it's such
an amazing shot like i love it so much the fact
that the entire town just fits in this one frame
you know yeah it's incredible and then at the
end of the movie It's solid gold Magikarp, the
data center, at the center of frame. And then
you can see Eddington off in the distance. And
the data center is actually the size of this
town. It might even be bigger. And it got me
thinking about technology and the way that has
always kind of dictated the structures of our
societies. That it was technology that first
led to the advent of farming. And that it was
technology and farming and all of these convenient
tools that allowed us to sustain larger populations
and create town centers. And once you have these
town centers, you're kind of dealing with an
environment where the individual gets a little
bit lessened in order to work towards the common
good of the town or whatever. You start to enter
a world where people... have roles and there's
hierarchies and they exist in a kind of like
structured, logical system. The way they even
build their roads and buildings is almost like
a grid. Everything, I mean, even like Godfrey
Reggio in Koyaanisqatsi made a very, very clear
comparison between aerial shots of cities and
motherboards of computers and whatever. Right,
right, and factories and highways. There just
seems to be – Industrial society. We seem to
be structuring ourselves around the shapes of
technology and the way electricity moves around
systems and the way everything has roles and
nodes and all these kind of things. It's about
the system, not any one part of it. Right. It
was founded because of mining. I think that's
mentioned at some point. This used to be an old
mining town. So that means it was a colonialist
town. A bunch of Spaniards or white people essentially
came in, stole the land, exploited it, took it
for all it was worth. And then at some point
that industry died and people kind of hung out
and just kept this little thing going or whatever.
But we are talking about... A small Western town
that was isolated for most of its existence.
And even in 2020, when this movie takes place,
still feels quite remote and has very little
to do with a lot of the world outside of it,
right? And so everyone all of a sudden has access
to the world outside of Eddington. Basically,
like COVID and George Floyd and... like Trump
and all these things, they're just like solid
gold magic harps that are fucking up this system,
Eddington, that has not been trained to deal
with any of this fucking information. And I just
think like, that's what your brain is. That's
what your nervous system is. None of us are trained
for what's happening right now. And so just like
the way the AI model reacts, We all react with
conspiracy theory, gibberish, babbling, aggression,
confusion. You know, we hallucinate. Like his
fucking wife and mother -in -law are just like
buzzing around the house, like spouting conspiracy
theory. They're trying to come up with some sort
of explanation. They're trying to come up with
some sort of explanation for something that doesn't
make any fucking sense. And we're all now dealing
with this. This insane amount of information
that makes no sense to us, and we're all losing
it because of it. We are not trained to deal
with this. Our nervous system isn't, our brain
isn't, and not even our societal structures are.
And I think the tech overlords know this, and
I think that's why they're building cities of
robots that can... think about all that for us
like well this ai brain can actually take in
all that information and actually can think about
all of and actually can crunch all the numbers
and make sense of it and it will make sense of
it for us we don't know what's going on either
we're super confused we're building this thing
so that there's something out there that can
finally put all this together and make sense
of what's going on here um I think part of what's
so interesting is that the people's actions in
the real world, you don't really know who these
people are until you see their phone screens.
When they're watching a video and you see above
and below the video that they're watching, it's
like, oh, okay, I know exactly who this guy is
now. And like, you didn't, it's not because they
expressed anything in the real world or anything.
It's like, just because, oh, they chose a certain
side when they were browsing alone in their room
about some imaginary thing that's happening elsewhere.
I mean, to me, I think the, I like a lot of what
you're saying and whatnot with the solid gold
magic card. For me, a lot of what it comes down
to is there's this tech company that needs to
come into this town, right? And, like, take over
this town, essentially. And they're coming up
against some sort of pushback at the beginning.
So they get to fly in the hired guns. And then
they create this Infowars, you know, battle happening
in the sphere of human consciousness, something
that's not happening on the boots on the ground
in Eddington at all, but just, like... A race
war is happening elsewhere that you need to get
out there and fight. And there's a disease happening
elsewhere that you need to be afraid of. And
that creates this chaos that makes the left -wing
coded and right -wing coded leaders of this town
fight against each other and destroy each other.
What's left in the end is neither any left or
any right except for the right who's in the bed
with the conspiracy theorists at the end and
is totally neutered and destroyed. But the only
people who win from this conflict is the tech
company. Like that to me is the bottom line is
like, oh, this conflict that was necessary for
the tech people to take over and like was caused
completely by the technology that people were
using and like created this false war where everybody
hates each other based on like what. these phones
tell them and stuff. Those people also benefit
off of that. And when in the end, the people
who needed that and created that, and then what,
like I, it's, it was actually so obvious. It
was actually so obvious at the time, but you
had to like question it. You couldn't entirely
believe in it because of just how oppressive
the, the, the message and propaganda was and
the fear mongering and everything around, you
know, it was very easy. To get swept up in it.
It's easy to get swept up on either side, you
know? I remember talking to you at the time.
During COVID? Yeah, during COVID. I just remember
there was a lot of skepticism. There was a lot
of skepticism about lockdowns. There was a lot
of skepticism about mask wearing. And I don't
think we were alone and stuff. That's why there
are these two sides that were represented. And
the thing is... I really feel somewhat vindicated.
We don't have all the evidence, but any journalist
who's worth their salt right now is going to
tell you that the virus most likely came from
the Wuhan lab, that Fauci was absolutely corrupt,
there was a lot of shady shit going on behind
the scenes, that the Operation Warp Speed was
riddled with problems, and we were lied to over
and over again. We were lied to about lockdown
effectiveness. and mask effectiveness i also
think the fact that it changed the world forever
yeah it changed the world never returned to normal
um is a big part but the thing the thing like
the final point of that too is that there was
just like an overall consolidation of power that
happened in that moment exactly that moment Killed
off a lot of the little businesses. That moment
stacked the cards against the little guy even
more than ever before. And who won out? The big
tech companies. The tech companies. Yeah, the
tech companies won. The people who needed this
thing in order to, you know, win their political
opponents a seat. Who also affected us through
our phones. They also were the people who won
out in the end. I'm surprised. It's almost as
if they came up with and caused this thing. It's
crazy. And what do you think all of them were
thinking about at that time that they weren't
really pushing out onto people until like three
years later? AI, right? Building data centers.
Of course. All this stuff was happening at that
time, but they weren't really talking about it.
Right, right. It wasn't really at the forefront.
They were just creating a world in which everybody
was living inside as a beta test. That's why
it was shocking to see that the very first shot
of Eddington. has this vagrant walk past this
sign that says like AI data center being built
or whatever. And I was immediately just like
taken aback by that. I was like, Oh, this is
a, it's like, this is a movie about 2020. Like
nobody was talking about AI data centers back
then, but that's actually what was happening.
No, no, they were, I'm sure they were, they were
being, what was happening. I'm sure they were
already like destroying. They weren't letting
that into our algorithm. No, they weren't letting
it into our algorithm yet, exactly. But in retrospect,
knowing that that was always there behind the
scenes makes COVID even shadier. Of course. The
idea that those tech companies actually required
that consolidation of power to build all those
data centers. Right. And to really push this
thing. And to kill off both sides of this thing.
And then, yeah. That's how you create oligarchs.
Perfect storm. And so, yeah, we were fucked with,
man. We were fucked with real hard. And most
people bought it hook, line, sinker. They fought
with their neighbors. They yelled at people who
didn't wear masks. Yeah, but I mean, the people
who were reasonable, a lot of people were killed
off through Eddington. You know what I mean?
During the movie Eddington, a lot of these archetypes
were killed off. And what's left in the end...
uh, is what, like the conspiracy theorist archetype.
And then the, the battered woman is off with
her new, like, I guess the abused woman is off
with her cult. Um, she's, she's like, uh, she's
like, she's doing the thing that Julianne Moore
did in safe or whatever. Exactly. Yeah. She's,
she's, she is, uh, Carol in safe. Um, And the
black guy's out there arming himself and shooting
targets and looking at the... But I don't even
know what that means either. Like, who is that?
What is his archetype? Yeah, I mean, I think
he's indicative of a lot of details in Eddington
that don't really add up. Or if they do, I don't
know how they do specifically yet. That's the
thing. There's so much I really like about this
movie. But I think some of the things he shoehorns
in it I don't think are given enough. time to
really matter um except in a general like this
is 2020 the movie and we're gonna touch on all
the things um like i really don't like the austin
butler thing i think like that was kind of like
pretty throwaway and and like just to bring up
the pedophile thing that's like But there is
a part of me that still thinks it's sort of important
because it's the only thing that doesn't signal
to the AI thing. It's the only thing that doesn't
signal to, well, the only problem is technology.
Actually, there was a problem with the old world
in small communities, which is dads be raping
their daughters. I mean, this is something that
Yuval Noah Harari in his book Sapiens. documents.
There's a lot of criticism about that book. Another
thing you have to take with a grain of salt.
But, you know, just talking about how back when
people lived in family units on farms and homesteads,
yeah, you had closer family units. There's less
reliance on the state and all that kind of stuff.
But it's not like there wasn't a significant
amount of abuse going on. Like, there's no accountability
in those families. There's nothing like, you
know what I mean? Until the system really gets
big enough where the law is in everyone's backyard.
And that is an interesting part of the movie
because obviously the mother is in denial about
her husband raping their daughter and blames
Ted Garcia. I mean, she got pregnant at 16. Her
dad raped her and impregnated her at 16 or something.
And mom just can't deal with that. She cannot.
Except the reality, it's a solid gold Magikarp.
This does not compute. So she creates this whole
narrative that Ted Garcia did it. Which is what
Joaquin's dealing with. That's the thing. He's
defending... he's trying to defend her against
her rapist. Like, you know what I mean? Like
he, he is like kind of like, no, this guy's fucking
bad. And I like need to fight this guy and do
this with me. Like he's protecting the honor
of his wife who was like, you know, there is
something there. Well, that's because he does,
he does think Ted did it because that was the
narrative. But it's like, she's not willing to
let him in. Like there's a lot of this stems
from their male, female dynamic in the first
place. Like, I mean, a lot of this starts with,
The opening voiceover is about how men who want
to have children and their partners don't want
to have children and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that being a rising trend, or at least that
is a rising trend that is a modern zeitgeisty
thing where men generally want to have children
and women generally do not. Sure, there's a lot
of... There's a lot of interesting details in
all, like, what's going on in the phones and
in the background TVs and computers and whatever.
Most of the computers, actually. I don't think
anyone's watching a TV in the movie, except in
the police station. Maybe. I think the police
station, they're watching Fox News and stuff.
Like, Tucker comes on, and there's, like, you
know, they're watching, like, the George Floyd
stuff on the TV. Like, the cops, they have their
phones, too, but most of the screens in the movies
are laptops or phones. Yeah. But yeah, no, there's
a lot of like little conversations happening.
There's a lot of little radio broadcasts. There's
a lot of little things happening in the background
that are also speaking to like the media environment
that everyone's swimming to. Everything seems
noisy all the time. There's always some like
thing on in the background, you know, for the
most part. Yeah. Yeah. But I was just thinking
that's, that's probably, that might be Joaquin's
solid gold magic card thing. Cause he's, he's,
he's just like trying to get MS, like, uh, Joe
is just trying to get Louise in bed or basically
whatnot. And the opening voiceover makes it seem
like maybe this is like he wants family and children
and whatnot. And this is something that he's
trying to fix and defend. And, like, create this,
like, light. Like, you know what I mean? It's
like, well, his wife has this problem. It's like,
well, I can fix it. I'll go out. I'll fight.
I'll kill the fucking guy. I'll do whatever.
Like, I'll do, like. And it's like, nah, she's
not even letting you know who to fight. Like,
because there's not. He has no chance to begin
with. She needs to connect to the cult leader.
Like. Sure, sure. Because he's also, like, a
victim. And who knows if his story is even real.
Right. I doubt his story is real. They keep saying
over and over, like, this sounds unbelievable.
But, yes, like, I don't want to deny it. I don't
want to call you a liar or whatever. It just
sounds unbelievable. It kind of does. It sounds
like the most ridiculous, like, did Epstein even
do that? It sounds so medieval. or something
or just something out of the movie uh loose change
9 -11 uh you know conspiracy bullshit or this
is what the rich do is they capture young children
and they release them in the woods and they hunt
them down and then rape them in the woods and
kill them and hang their bodies in satanic whatever
the fox hunt with little kids yeah there was
there was a i remember in film school i don't
know if you watch this but at our film school
there was like uh they showed us examples of
like earlier film projects And one of them was
a kid who shot like this whole like it was pretty
big budget thing of like these basically like
poor kids like running away in the woods from
like these big, scary, you know, rich people
and whatnot. um and it was like a really well
done cool aesthetic and then it ended with like
the credits being like no they actually do do
this and like this is a thing about like this
this thing that the rich do do at this time in
this place every year and whatever and like apparently
they use this as an example of like everybody
told him to cut out the credits then like everybody
was like dude you did a good job just like don't
don't Be so off -putting. Don't say this, really.
Saying this is all real and the rich do eat the
virgins and whatever. It's like, no, no, that's
a solid gold Magikarp. That does not compete.
I don't fucking, like, what are you talking about?
At least it's a solution to a solid gold Magikarp,
you know? Like, it's a, yeah, yeah. It's the
way of. Well, I think, no, I think even that
information is. I think when the mother hears
that narrative, you know, that triggers something
in her of just like. That's not real. I don't
believe this. Stop fucking talking about this.
I don't even want to hear this. And then that
gives Louise, Emma Stone's character, the sort
of chance to start talking about the abuse from
her father. And mom's just not having it. And
Austin Butler is like, you see what that is?
She's in pain too or something like that. That's
her pain. But yeah, I don't know. He's doing
some sort of victim thing, like the valor of
victimhood. I think that is an important aspect
of the movie, though, like why the technology
and AI data center can take over and poison everybody
is everybody is very weak at the moment. Everybody
is really, really, there's a lot of pain and
like generational trauma that has kind of been
passed down. um and like stuff that people just
haven't dealt with that is like boiling underneath
and a lot of it's because of like untruths you
know like the the idea that joe cross has been
living with this hurt about ted raping his wife
when she was 16 and it was never even true um
that's fucked up that's a crazy thing to put
on joe cross it's it's enough to drive him insane
yeah like yeah i know and you know what joe cross
was trained on Joe Cross was trained on an idea
of the world where he would be a man, he'd be
a police officer, he'd protect and serve, he
would provide, start a family, have a little
homestead. He was trained on something that he
hasn't received at all in any way. Instead, his
wife's like sobbing about something that like...
didn't she's not even telling him because it
didn't even actually happen because there's another
thing that she's actually like and it's so distant
the actual cornerstone of her mental illness
is something he doesn't even know about right
And he's trying to fix it. He's trying to solve
the problem in a very masculine way where it's
like, I'm going to fix it. He's trying to have
sex with you, dude. We're going to make it better
and then we're going to have a family and it's
going to be better because that's what we both
want, right? And she's just like, nah, she's
just there. Well, I don't want to lessen the
crime that is paternal rape. I think that would
probably be a pretty hard thing to overcome.
We don't really see how she's worked on it. It
doesn't really seem like her dealing with it
has been healthy because she's kept it a secret
from her husband and all these things. It's obviously
not something she's been dealing with healthily.
She said that she doesn't want to slip again,
so she's getting better. But did she go to rehab?
is she just getting better because her mom's
around now and like sort of encouraging her conspiratorial
way of thinking and stuff. I mean, to me, it
also just sounds like an arch version of like
aggressor masquerading as victim. Like, even
though I see she is a victim, like it's just
like the way that she treats her poor husband,
the whole movie is just kind of like, he's just,
he's just trying to be nice. And like, then she
like, gives him, like, two seconds of her time.
Like, I don't know. He doesn't really seem like
a bad person, but he also seems kind of stupid.
And like incapable of actually dealing with any
of the information that he's being given. But
he hasn't been given the right information. That's
the point. He's been given the information that
he's fighting against the one big bad guy that
is like in charge of this town. And he's not
allowed to kill this guy because of modern society,
but he is the sheriff and he can go on and he
can shame him. He can take over and he can be
like, we're actually taking care of it. And it's
like. no, dude, you're not taking care of anything.
You're just embarrassing me because this has
nothing to do with anything and this isn't actually
the bad guy and there isn't actually any justice
down the path because I've just been like giving
you some tertiary thing to get mad at so that
you don't actually know what's actually going
on inside of me. Like, I don't know. But I also
think it gives him the ability to put blame on
something else besides himself. I think Joe Cross
is a heavily flawed character. I think it's pretty
interesting. that he actually does seem really
bad at his job, that he's been in, like, the
police force his whole life. I mean, what Ted
levies against him is, like, you can't even keep
your own fucking department together, dude. Like,
everyone's leaving. Like, what are you doing?
You're not good at this job, and you want to
be a mayor? I feel like Ted's right about that,
you know? No, but I mean, but also, Joe Cross
comes back with, like, that guy left for this
reason, and that's because of your budget, and
then this other thing was, like, that was an
accident. Sure, we don't really know. You don't
really know. You don't actually know. But I also
think his deputies are stupid. I know that it's
complicated because after Joe kills Ted and his
son and they go to the crime scene, obviously
Joe doesn't care about the crime being solved
properly. Right. That's the funniest scene in
the movie. I love it. But there is still a huge
incompetence to just like his deputies too. and,
like, touching the evidence without gloves and
whatever. And it's like, these guys aren't good
at their jobs. Yeah, but also, what small -town
police officers who've never been on a crime
scene before are good at their jobs? Like, remember
the guys that arrested us when we were fucking
16? The guys who, like, walked into the place
and, like, kicked over things and smashed? Like,
the losers whose lives are busting up 16 -year
-old parties? Those guys. I think that being
a sheriff of a town like that is just kind of
like being in charge of the frat and just being
like, all right, bros, just like, let's try not
to. I don't know. Maybe that's the reality, man.
You don't have the smartest guys in the world
who are the low -line, on -the -beat police officers
in rural towns in America. Dude, I understand
that's the reality or whatever. And that's like
what the movie is highlighting. That's kind of
the point when he's looking at the TV with the
George Floyd stuff and being like, that's not
a here problem. This town only has fucking three
cops and like only one of them is in riot gear
and they're approaching this crowd of kids and
protesters. Like it looks silly. It's like this
whole thing doesn't apply to this town. Right.
And that's kind of like the point is like none
of this is happening here. Like none of this
is about this town. But you see, the right wing
guy is saying that, right? Yeah, exactly. Whereas
the left wing guy is going on TV and hiring a
bunch of black people to walk around with him
who don't live in that town so that he can pretend
the racial thing that is happening in that town.
He's on the right side of and whatever. Like
I do think I think a lot of the ways that like.
the virus infiltrates in this movie, the mind
virus, the AI mind virus that, you know, got
through our phones and created this, you know,
hysteria that we call COVID and George Floyd
and whatever. Like, I think that the way that
that gets into the water supply of Eddington
is very like, I think that a lot of the details
of this movie are fucking great. I think a lot
of the details are fucking great. And there are
so many of them that when you watch it a second
time, it's kind of like, oh, yeah, this does
actually have to do with pregnancy and relationships
in the modern age. A lot of this does come from
that. And like, oh, yeah, a lot of this is like
this trauma response stuff. And so I don't know.
I think there's a lot there to be mined. Well,
that's the thing is I think like Ted is a far
more ideological character than Joe. I think
Joe. Is like... He's operating on very basic,
classic sort of moral standards, like you said.
He's just trying to protect his wife, protect
her honor. Ted is just operating on selfish standards,
too. During quarantine, he's hanging out in a
group with all his people because the rules don't
apply to him because he is allowed to, because
everywhere is the governor's office if he's there.
You know what I mean? He's just pretending, too.
He's also hiring the black people to come in,
even though there's no black people in town.
He's pretending. I don't mean his... His ideology
is woke or about COVID. I think his ideology
is capitalism. I think his ideology is like,
I want to bring this data center into here to
boost the economy of Eddington. Exactly. And
what do I need to do to do that? Yes. And what
do I need to bullshit and pretend is actually
happening? He doesn't care about his kid going
to that party because it's going to expose his
kid to COVID. He's worried about someone seeing
his kid. He knows it's not real and that COVID
is not at that party. He just needs to go on
TV and say that only a monster would think that
COVID wasn't real and it wasn't at that party.
And so by doing that, he can create a world for
the AI overlords. And the first thing he says
to his kid is, like, you know what it would look
like if someone saw you out there, my kid, during
the pandemic? You know, it's like he's thinking
about the optics. He's thinking about sign value
versus actual value. He's living in a postmodern
world. But he's probably also in pain. I think
we spend a little bit less time with his character,
but there's a broken family story there, too.
I think he really works in this movie, though.
I think he's great. There's obviously been a
little bit too much Pedro Pascal these days,
but, like, that's just another problem. No, I
think it's great too. I think our system is having
a really hard time producing stars right now.
So when a star like Pedro Pascal comes around,
they overuse them. Yeah, exactly. It's like,
oh my God, we got a guy here. We got a guy people
actually want to go to the movies to look at
right now. The chair company guy. How many fucking
shows is he in right now? Oh my God, yeah. I
actually haven't seen a single one either. I
haven't seen anything with Tim Robbins. I'll
tell you, the chair company is great. Is it?
Cool, cool. I mean, so far, I don't know. But,
yeah, I also just like, even though I think Ari
Aster's trying to poke fun at both sides and,
like, keep things a little bit vague and leave
room for interpretation, I do think... He indulges
on the same kind of pleasures that he does in
his other movies by the time you get about halfway
through or to the third act where you have something
way more just kind of absurd, cartoony, and surreal
start to go down. And yeah, so you touched on
this earlier. The data center needs to get built.
That's the point. Obviously, I don't believe
that the conspiracy is that literally everything
is planned, you know, COVID. George Floyd, everything.
But I do think these events allow opportunities
for the powerful to make moves. It's not saying
it's planned, but it is saying that the tech
companies who wanted that to happen and then
allowed it to happen, took part in it happening,
then benefited off of it happening. Maybe they
didn't plan it, but they sure did a great improv
dance to it. to the thing that they were really
hoping would happen and accidentally they did
make happen. I think it's kind of like my theory
on 9 -11 and Pearl Harbor or COVID or a lot of
these things are just like the government didn't
design this and make it happen, but the moment
it started to happen, they were like, okay, how
can we use this? Maybe we should let... It's
just like there's definitely motive and there's
definitely like stated desire for this beforehand
and motive. And then there's definitely like
benefit from this afterwards. And they definitely
took part in the act of the murder. But we can't
convict. You know what I mean? I don't know.
I just think what's interesting is that Joe Cross
creates the boogeyman of Antifa. after he kills
ted and then antifa actually shows up but it's
like the government right it's not actually antifa
it's like some it's the tech company it's bigger
than the government they're the government they're
the government that's the thing well i don't
the government it's vague it's vague who it actually
is but yeah i was gonna ask you who you think
it is the tech companies okay it's got to be
the tech companies they come in in the in the
pristine uh uh planes and yeah No, the fact that
they had the private plane was a giveaway. They're
funded. They're extremely funded, and they have
private planes. So I think that this movie actually
does come down. I'm like, oh, by the way, they
completely did it on purpose. They have funded
planes and black ops, and they start crowds.
That's what I was going to say, is in the end,
it doesn't really stay vague on that point. It's
like, oh, this is a conspiracy. There are people
shaping the narrative, essentially. And that
those people are Silicon Valley. And that's not
wrong. It's true. It just is true. It is true
even if it doesn't happen in the – even if it
doesn't actually happen in the cartoony way the
movie presents. Right. It ends up ringing true.
The other thing though that I think is interesting
that I don't have sussed out is why is the mother
-in -law just like not weird and crazy anymore
at the end? Why is she looking presentable? No.
It's just that weird and crazy is the only thing
that's left. She only looked weird and crazy
earlier because he was questioning her. Nobody
can question her anymore. Her daughter's not
even there. She's just one. I just don't think
that's not the vibe I get at all. Earlier in
the movie, I know she looks more disheveled.
Um, but like, it's a, it's a whole package. She
looks disheveled. She looks like a frigging homeless
person. She's like rambling literally all the
time under her breath about conspiracy theories.
She's like a frigging, like she's one. Yeah.
In the end, she's one. Like at the beginning,
the big problem between Joe and Louise at the
beginning of the movie was that, that the mom
was still there and that the mom was making Louise
crazy too. And that Joe hated her being around
and whatever. Like, and that was like a big,
and then in the end, it's like, she gets rid
of Louise even, and then it's just her and Joe.
And like, she's got even her maid to fuck her
and whatever. Like, I don't think that's, to
me, that's a, that's a conversation about the
right wing or something. Like that's a, that's
a conversation about like Joaquin Phoenix actually
is like a guy who's just like, this is wrong.
Like you can't treat people like this. This is
fucked up through COVID. That guy, who's like
a reasonable guy, he dies. And who's left is
kind of like the type of people who are in power
now and stuff. Like, I don't know. Like, weird
out there shit. Like, I don't know what the fuck
is happening in politics anymore and stuff. Yeah.
But I wouldn't just breeze past that, though.
I think there is something very, very weird and
surreal. Almost Bo is afraid, like, about the
last part of the movie after he gets stabbed
in the head. Almost like it's a dream. It's like
an AI hallucination or something. Because I think
the mother is like... explicitly a different
person at that point like she's not talking conspiracy
theory anymore she's not like a friggin buzzing
detuned radio she looks presentable her hair's
done she's just fulfilled by her sexless relationship
with this hero and uh they're also they have
money now but like why do they have money like
there's some missing pieces like how do you piece
together exactly what happened in the in like
the space there Why is she giving a presentation
for the opening of the AI data center? On his
behalf? Just because he's a hero? Was she an
agent, too, to subvert Joe Cross and whatever
in the first place? Was she working for the AI
company? Well, I don't know, but there's something
just as weird about the ending of this movie
as there is about the shadowy figures in the
darkness in Velvet Goldmine. The movie seems
to point to conspiracy. Yeah. No, you're right.
I mean, maybe that is what is, what is Michael
looking at in the end when he's looking at, you
know, Joe Cross on stage and whatnot is, is maybe
he's, maybe he's thinking about something that
I haven't put my finger on yet. And you're right.
Maybe it has to be. And the thing where he's,
and like he's filming and then the person comes
up and says, sir, this is a private event. You
can't film here. Yeah. It's like, there's something
like you can't like, why can't people see this?
You know, there's. There's something about that
ending, man. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And yeah,
in a way, I guess you could say she's fulfilling.
She's kind of getting everything that she lost
or whatever. Maybe that's why she's just like
feeling in her oats again or something. She has
her surrogate husband who she gets to take care
of. She has money and they're in this nice house
and all needs are met. And her daughter, who
was like the source of all of her trauma, continuing
to face her with the trauma of like, you know
the family being broken up over this act of rape
or whatever that that's not now gone and she
can now just live in her own hallucination her
own fantasy of life being more ideal or whatever
i mean she gets to be a mother and take care
of this guy and like i mean obviously she still
seems really hurt and by like the video of her
daughter with a baby bump you know right But...
I don't know, man. There's something really weird.
Something really, really weird going on there.
Yeah. I mean, I think she's quite clearly another
evil mother, like in Bo is Afraid, but I'm not
really sure. I mean, again, this is... I don't
know if evil is the right word, but yeah. She's
another mother that he has problems with his
mother, obviously. I think that there's some
interesting relationship Ari Aster has with women
in general, I think. He's Jewish. He has an overbearing
Jewish mother. Classic stereotype. And yeah,
the mother thing is still here. It's still very
much in this movie. The mother thing is also
in Hereditary. It's also... You could say it's
a midsummer. It's usually an hereditary, but
it's also definitely a midsummer too. I mean,
less so mother, more so family. But still the
gender dynamics thing of the woman kind of like,
you know, killing her boyfriend at the end and
whatever and becoming the maiden. Or her sister
killing her parents and stuff like in the first
place. I mean, this might get to a general point
about Ari Aster's movies is that like, Like I
said earlier, I find it to be a kindred spirit.
I really like him. I really like his movies.
But I've only seen every single one of them once
because I'm kind of afraid that if I watch them
again, I'm not going to think they're as good
the second time. I think you'd be surprised.
I think you'd be surprised. Maybe. I just did
Midsommar again for the second time, I think,
last night, and it was very good. I did the director's
cut, which I think might have been a mistake.
I think you might just want to go with the theatrical.
Yeah, I still haven't been able to put my finger
on it, and maybe it has to do with the fact that
maybe he's too much like me or something, that
I feel like he doesn't really have a lot to actually
tell me or show me. It's all just like, oh, yeah,
man, I feel that, I feel that, I feel that. Yeah,
that's in my head too. Like, oh, totally, man.
I know where your head's at. He's totally like
an acid head galaxy brain guy. And I just relate
to that. But I do think every single movie I
feel the same way. I kind of feel like every
single one of his movies has the same trajectory,
kind of does the same thing, kind of has the
same ending. I would definitely say so as far
as pacing. And a certain type of aesthetic. Maybe
not a visual aesthetic, but a pacing aesthetic.
He has a thing. I agree. But I do think that
these are very different movies. I mean, I don't
know. This is very different from Midsommar or
something. I guess Midsommar and Hereditary are
very close to each other. I do think ultimately,
regardless of the details, in the end, the protagonist
is always... powerless to overcome the darkness
of the system that surrounds them and that they
are a part of. They're always consumed by whatever
prophecy, whatever system, whatever overbearing,
dominating force. But I mean, that's true of
any movie that's good. Come on, man. That's true
of all the Paul Thomas Anderson movies. No, it's
not true. Who's not overcome by the forces of
degradation of the world? Do you have anything
more to say, Baddington? Do you want to get into
one battle after another? I don't have that much
more to say. I would say that I think that we
don't have... I at least don't have it completely
figured out. I think that this movie does...
I do think that Ari Aster's movies are worth
watching a second time and kind of... that he
has filled it up with details that when, you
know, you go through this the first time, a lot
of this stuff feels like, oh man, that's just
like a lot of, yeah, it's 2020 zeitgeist, the
movie. So let's just throw in the, the abuse
stuff and let's throw in this and that. But I
think, no, no, I think this is a guy who's really
like looked at what was this year and in the
preceding five or the subsequent five years.
And what like, This is a part of it, and we're
not going to have it explicitly talk about that,
but that's a part of who this character is, and
that character interacting with this character
is what's happening in the world. I think that
he's doing a very good job of showing us a microcosm
of the actual American society post -COVID we've
been living through. And I think that the details
in that zeitgeist, like... really work on a second
viewing. And I also think that like after watching
Midsommar a second time, the details in that
movie are all very, very like worth reflecting
on again and stuff too. I'm sure Bo is afraid
I would need at least another viewing because
I barely remember what the fuck that movie was.
I know, right? I'm giving him the benefit of
the doubt because I will say that like The only
one of his movies I didn't really enjoy the whole
way through was Bo's Afraid. By the end, I was
very exhausted and just kind of felt like it
made the point so long ago and wasn't adding
anything. yeah it like gave you the finger and
i kind of feel like halfway through and then
there was another like hour after that it's like
you already gave us the finger dude like you're
already saying this is fuck you so what are we
doing here even though i didn't like bow is afraid
as much as the other two before that it's the
one i couldn't stop thinking about right um it's
the one that has the most vivid imagery just
like the most like intrigue there's so much more
space for interpretation and just like try to
figure out kind of like, what is this movie doing?
I mean, I think that was clearly the depths of
a sort of acid binge of some sort. It was on
that tour when it came out with, uh, it's so
acid brained. There was, there was when Joaquin
Phoenix came out on, uh, it was, I don't know
if it was the premiere. It was, it's at some
point touring with that movie. And it was just
like, Well, we're here with Ari Aster and Nathan
Fielder. They're backstage. They took too much
acid. There's not going to be a speech. They
took, those guys are on too much acid. So we're
going to just enjoy the movie. I love that Joaquin
Phoenix, Ari Aster, and Nathan Fielder are all
taking LSD together in the year 2023 or whatever
the fuck it was. That's who this guy is. And
that's where that movie came out of. And I think
that Eddington comes out of a similar sensibility
at the very least. It's still psychedelic and
surreal even though it's the most grounded of
any of his movies. The first two kind of... The
first two kind of have the horror elements to
back up the surreal stuff. I mean, Midsommar
is a very grounded movie. Every single part of
that movie feels like it could happen. Hereditary,
I feel like there is a certain level at a certain
point that gets out there, but I feel like that's
also still pretty grounded. It's a ghost possession
movie. It's a ghost possession movie. I think
editing once you've got the people swinging in
on the flight to be, the antifa terrorists or
whatever i think that's that's kind of yeah once
i saw it's almost both afraid level craziness
no i know i know but it's still it still feels
like real enough so like there is but i i did
appreciate how eddington got surreal but not
like way over the top surreal in a way that bozo
like i was afraid that it would like kind of
do a penis monster at some point right right
right yeah yeah but it but it was gonna give
you the finger and be like yeah you guys are
idiots for watching this movie fuck you yeah
yeah exactly yeah but it didn't it was yeah and
i i did like that because that was something
that kind of didn't win me over with those afraid
but i might enjoy and appreciate more in a second
viewing but i guess the other thing is like i'm
giving him the benefit of the doubt but as of
right now Part of my problem is that when I think
about the movies afterwards, like, yeah, I agree.
There's so many great details. I love it. It's
so creative. It's so fun. But a lot of the times
I feel like those details are just additive and
they don't actually like change the way you thought
about the movie initially. I think like no detail
I've noticed or researched or found out more
about in Eddington has changed essentially what
I thought the movie was after like 10 minutes
of it or something, you know? I didn't, there's
not like something that was revealed that like
made me feel like, oh, it's actually the opposite
or, oh, actually that's like a totally subversive
idea. And this is just like, you know what I
mean? Like it didn't feel very like cover story,
true meaning kind of thing. It feels like very
just straightforward about what it's touching
on, what things represent. And it only takes
like a. It only takes a quick Google search to
figure out what solid gold Magikarp represents,
and it doesn't take much to kind of piece together
what the sort of overarching point is, but I
still want to give him more credit. There are
things there. There are things there that can
be dug into that aren't just totally straightforward,
that do come from the details and the little
asides and just those little things he includes
that don't necessarily add up. Like, what's the
deal with that stuff? And so he's very interesting.
I guess like the last thing I wanted to say about
Eddington just as a New Mexican is like I live
in New Mexico now. And it was definitely interesting
to see a movie that is so intimately shot in
a place that I know. I've been to Truth or Consequences,
which is the city the movie was shot in. It's
a small town. like an hour and a half south of
Albuquerque. It's near White Sands, relatively
close to the place where the first nuclear bomb
went off. And yeah, and the inclusion of the
tribal police, right? The acknowledgement of
the stolen land acknowledgement stuff, the fact
that it was a mining town. That is very, very
ingrained into the history and culture here.
the native people are still very much around
here and they have a lot of land here. And so
there is much more of a like in your face reminder
of the fact that we are like, you know, colonizers
and whatever. And I think it's interesting that
like nobody in Eddington has like an interesting
regional accent or something like that. Like
these are just like white people who came from
the East. And then, like, a couple generations
later, here you go, you have this. And then you
connect them all to the internet. But I think
basically the setting just feels like a really
appropriate place to tell this story. And, you
know, people have brought up before how this
is, like, one of the only truly modern westerns
or whatever. It really plays like a western.
which is super cool. I can see that to a certain
degree. I mean, I think it's dealing with Western
archetypes and characters and whatnot, but I
don't know. Yeah, I mean, that wouldn't be the
best way to look at it or whatever. That's just
more of like a style aesthetic kind of thing
of like, you know, it's shot in the Southwest,
small town. It's about as like Western vibe as
you can get. It is Western. Yeah, it's in New
Mexico. It's Southwestern. You're dealing with
a sheriff of a town and a mayor who are in a
conflict. That could easily be a story told in
Western times and you just kind of sub out. But
the technology thing is the part that's different,
right? And the thing that's unique about this
Western is this town is not operating under the
assumptions of the late 1800s or whatever. But
yeah, I really like that tribal cop who's just
like, It's kind of stereotypical, but I love
that he's a great tracker and he finds the casing.
He just knows how to do his job and he's piecing
it together really well, but then he just kind
of becomes irrelevant because Antifa shoots him
in the head. Those guys, they're trying so hard.
They're so competent, but they're also the ones
telling him to wear the mask first thing. If
you don't put that on, we're getting out of our
car and making you put it on. The intensity of
the put on the mask stuff in the beginning is
really, really crazy. It was real. It happened.
It happened, yeah. But the movie didn't really
focus on the Pueblos very much. It's not about
the Pueblo. And, like, I don't know. That's another
thing where, like, this movie chooses to focus
on so much that it becomes easier to criticize
it for what it doesn't focus on. And, like, COVID
hit Pueblos really, really hard. people were
dying in like greater numbers in Pueblos than
they were in the white towns nearby and stuff.
And also like Pueblos have like a really, really
high rate of child abduction, just like missing
persons, which is also a part of this movie.
Um, but it's never really touched on, but I just
wanted to like, since I've been here in New Mexico
and that's kind of like, just trying to give
some insight into some of the more New Mexico
things like Zozobra makes an appearance when
he's driving and he's being led by Antifa with
like the flaming arrows and whatever. And then
he looks to his left and gets scared by that
thing on the roof. That is Zozobra, which is
like a annual New Mexican tradition where they
inflate this giant man. And then burn him. So
it's a kind of Burning Man. It started before
Burning Man, I'm pretty sure. But the idea that
you would put Zazobra on the roof and write white
supremacy on it is really interesting. Because
the whole cultural practice of Zazobra was created
by a white man. And it's definitely sort of a
co -opted tradition of some sort. It comes from
some kind of more... native ritual that this
white man kind of co -opted, and then he designed
this really weird, idiosyncratic, freaky character
that represents all the gloom in your life. And
so every year they set up this Zazobra, and you
write the things that you want to release from
your life on a piece of paper, and then they
burn the man, you burn the pieces of paper, and
you get rid of the gloom. The idea that this
symbol is both a symbol of relieving yourself
of the gloom and trauma in your life, but also
a symbol of white supremacy and colonialism is
pretty interesting. And on the colonialism aspect
in general, you've heard a lot of people these
days talk about These tech companies and their
goal as a sort of colonization of the mind. It's
this kind of idea that... War of the country,
yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's the idea that there's
no more land that can be colonized. There's no
more space that can be taken up. That the kind
of final frontier for capitalism is to control
every waking moment. of your time and your mind
and what you think about right so like yeah something
you see on social media can become the thing
you think about all day it just takes up so much
of your time and energy and mind mental space
the final frontier and then when they have that
they truly own you that's true mind control and
true population control and covid like you know
some people think covid was like a soft run like
a little experiment to see just how easy it would
be to get people to do what you told them and
how easy it would be to turn people against one
another and direct people based on narratives
or whatever. But I still really have skepticism
about the idea of full conspiracy, full control
over anything that happens on this world because
I still ultimately side with the Jurassic Park.
Like, every chaotic system cannot be controlled.
It'll eventually do something you can't predict.
The people in power are always in a much better
position to act on these random happenings and
benefit from them. Of course. That's part of
the idea of a war zone. Yeah, exactly. A war
zone somewhere that you can't really see into
or out of the fog of war and whatnot. And there's
a lot of profit to be made in there. Oh, yeah.
And if you make the entire country a war zone,
a lot of profit to be made. Mm -hmm. Yeah, and
especially because I think what we've seen with
the Middle East and what's going on with Israel
and Gaza, I think what we've seen is evidence
in real time that there were certain platforms
of information sharing that people in power did
not have control over. And that allowed people
to get fed narratives, whether they were true
or not, that were against the interests of the
state. That were very effective, honestly. And
then when you see the government and corporations'
response to that is to ban free speech, kick
people out of our country, fuck over green card
holders, to have Zionists like... david ellison
by paramount to have a zionist like barry weiss
taking over cbs to have david ellison also purchasing
tiktok which was the primary platform that uh
on the ground palestinian video was shared um
just seems to me like they don't always have
control over things but they're always in a pretty
good position to take control over things what
do you mean they you know what i mean no seriously
i don't mean that um but but they really are
not doing themselves any favors they really are
not aren't they um but you know we had heavy
meadow on the show he's uh you know he's one
of the one of them he's one of the chosen ones
man and um he represents the diaspora more than
I think Barry Weiss does or something, you know,
but, but anyway, um, I guess some stray thoughts,
like a couple of things we didn't touch on, man,
is like the kids. I thought all this stuff with
the kids in this movie, it was really great.
Almost painful. Like that character, Brian is
like such a fucking, uh, I mean, it kind of goes
back to the things you were saying about, um,
What he believes is just social currency. Yeah,
yeah. Like he says the whole thing about like,
well, there's different kinds of privilege and
he's just trying to inject a little nuance into
the situation. What are you, retarded? It's your
wife. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's to his dad, but
even when he says it to his friend and the girls.
It's one of the funniest things I've ever, like,
I love it. It's so straightforward. They're talking
about. They're talking about white privilege
and he's like, well, yeah, but there are like
some white people who are not as privileged as
others and there's different levels of privilege.
And they just like gaslight him into thinking
like, you're an idiot, dude. It's like, what
are you talking about? No, there's just white
privilege. Oh, yeah, right. That's what I meant.
Can I get laid now? It really stings. It really
stings to watch a person just try to like say
something reasonable and then just get totally
like gaslit. But then he doesn't rise above that.
He actually is just like a fucking lemming. I
think that's what's interesting, though, is that
he like if you and I were brought up in this
paradigm, maybe we would be him. That's like
it's not his fault. He starts off with the reasonable
like response. And then it's like, no, no, dude,
the only thing that's rewarded here is this.
So you have to become this. There isn't like
reason and actual like thinking through and taking
in information and putting out new. processing
and putting out a response that's like not valued
the way that just like repeating the same thing
as the other people in your cohort is valued
and so like even a person who starts off with
healthy skepticism and a good brain um they don't
have through the like skinnery like the the the
walden 2 sort of thing the the through conditioning
there is no way to develop a person who has reasoning
you know what i'm saying like he you see him
be like oh wait but there's actually something
reasonable and they're like no no no he gets
knocked down to the point where it's just like
he has to become that other thing and then in
the end he just becomes the hero for the other
side because he shoots the antifa peppers and
shit right like on on the internet i mean he's
basically alex from a clockwork orange like yeah
yeah you just see that you just see that kid
get destroyed and become the biggest tool of
the system imaginable just so he can get the
pussy. Just so he can get the girl. It's just
being the revolutionary for pussy again. Sorry
to bother you. To be fair, that's also what Joe
Cross is trying to do. He's just less of a fucking...
He's not a nerd. He's a jock. That's the difference.
Joe Cross is trying to defeat his enemies, at
least. That fucking kid is just a weaselly little
fucking nerd who's willing to say anything to
get pussy. He doesn't really have any enemies.
That's the post -Revenge of the Nerds paradigm.
That's what these kids are brought up in, so
you can't expect better of them. Yeah, but...
They were painful, the kids. They were painfully
unlikable. Yeah, what's as painfully unlikable
as kids are today? But I also personally thought
that every character in Eddington is unlikable.
And I think there's, like, different levels of
what that means. I think, like, I'm not really
talking about... What about Officer Jimenez?
Oh, yeah, he's the one likable guy. He was the
best. Yeah. No, dude, I love him. I would say
that to your point earlier of like them leaving
out the native perspective or whatever. It's
like, no, no, no. They put in only one person
in the movie who's reasonable and likable and
then gets shot for no reason. And that's the
native perspective. That's like the most honorable
thing. You're actually right. That really does
just tell the story. Yeah, that really does just
tell the native story. Like, he is so capable.
The most sympathetic version of the native story,
I would say. Like, that character is actually
tied into the here and now and what's going on
and sees stuff, you know? Yeah, exactly. And
he's just gunned down for being a good person
who wants to do the right thing and actually
sees what's going on. Right, right. That person
can't be allowed to exist. Exactly. And he, like
Joe Cross and everyone else at the end of the
movie, doesn't have a voice left in the modern,
you know what I mean, in the post -COVID paradigm.
He's one of the voices that's eliminated. Nope.
The only voice of reason. And I also don't think
he doesn't take any pleasure in trying to one
-up Joe Cross. He just wants to fucking help
and work with him. Totally. Maybe that's a little
different than the... Then the tribal police
at the beginning who are like telling him to
put on the mask. But I love that character. Yeah,
I think he's like the most likable character.
But I'm also kind of just talking about how like
when I say likable, I don't mean they're people
who in reality I would really enjoy hanging out
with and having a beer with or whatever. Just
like finding them to be likable and enjoyable
to watch on screen. in a way that, like, it makes
you giddy or whatever. In a way that, like...
I really liked Ted Garcia and Joe Cross. I enjoyed
both those performances a lot. I liked when Garcia
was yelling at his son and shit. I thought Joe
was great in the grocery store. Like, I loved
both those performances. Like, a lot. And his,
like, condescension to Joe. Like, the, like,
I don't know. Their interactions. I think those
were, I thought, very likable performances by
that definition. I would say certainly in some
moments. But I feel like most of the time things
feel a lot more perfunctory and, like, they're
fulfilling some kind of, like, role or duty within
the context of the script or story or some kind
of archetypal need or whatever. I think, and
this is something I guess I wanted to focus on
transitioning into one battle after another,
just because of like the, the kind of differences
between the movies and their sensibilities or
whatever. But, um, I think Eddington is a movie
you could see as like a comedy, but it's not
one I ever laughed out loud at. There were like
a couple funny moments, I think. But I don't
know. I never felt watching any single performance
in this movie that giddiness I get from Daniel
Day -Lewis in There Will Be Blood or Heath Ledger
as the Joker or even Yaw Queen Phoenix in a number
of other movies. I just rewatched The Master.
Oh my God, The Master is fucking amazing, dude.
But I'm just like... I'm a little played out
on Yaw Queen Phoenix. I kind of think his ability
to really find new dynamic characters is waning
a bit. I still like him. I still like to see
his face on screen. I think he's a great actor.
But I think they're more serviceable in this
movie than really stand out. And it's not really
like the character performances that I was finding.
That's not really what I found entertaining about
this movie. It was more just the totality of
it all and the vibe and the cinema of it and
the tension of it. Astor really is a master director.
His craft is pretty impeccable. I'm at the edge
of my seat. I'm leaning in. I want to really
soak in the experience. But there wasn't really,
I don't think there's a single line of dialogue
that's memorable in any single one of his movies
that I can think of. And like, he's not really
someone that I think where his like writing is
really what's shining. Like the writing in dialogue
or conversations in a way that Tarantino's dialogue
really like gets you giddy and excited. I mean,
all of the things that you're talking about are
like basically big or, like not naturalistic
or whatnot. Like, I mean, you're talking about
like acting with a capital A or something or
like, and yeah, Tarantino dialogue. Yeah, nobody
ever talks, it's like Kevin Smith dialogue or
something. It's like, it's not, yeah, it's a
non -naturalistic, it's an overly stylized idea
of, and yeah, I guess like performances in this
movie are. I mean, I would still say these are
pretty cartoony performances compared maybe only,
like, they're maybe less cartoony than one battle
after another, but they're still, like, very
cartoony compared to drama. You know what I mean?
Just, like, think of Joaquin Phoenix as being,
like, that guy's got it on his chin and stuff
and them dealing with the crime scene. No, no,
no. To me, it feels like a more macro movie.
I agree. Not as interested in sinking his teeth
into the, like, the characterizations and, like,
lives and inner struggles of these characters.
I think there's a certain banality to the inner
lives of these characters because it is American.
And their inner lives are hinted at a little
bit, too, or whatever. You can, like, extrapolate.
Like, you can extrapolate Joe Cross's relationship
to his wife's father. Right. Who, I guess, like...
you know there's like a one -off line about how
who knows whether or not he could have been saved
and joe was like i know and so clearly there's
like a tension between them like my husband's
dead because of you well yeah he said that like
he was there when he died or whatever and then
yeah the mom's like yeah and who knows if he
could have been saved he's like yeah i know i
was there he couldn't like it's yeah fuck you
that's very rude yeah but i also wouldn't be
surprised If, like, there was something he could
do and he wasn't smart enough to figure out what
to do or whatever, he's Joe Cross. He's like,
I don't know. Right, right. He doesn't inspire
a lot of confidence with anything that's actually
very big or difficult to deal with. I mean, dude,
like, the problem with that town's police is
not that they're, like, violent. That's why,
like, the George Floyd thing has nothing to do
with them. He's actually indifferent. he's indifferent
like when he shows up at the bar he doesn't even
want to fucking arrest the vagrant who's like
banging on the door they had to lock the door
like it's just he just seems like he doesn't
give a fucking shit about the thing he claims
to give a fucking shit about that's all just
a pretense for just like this baggage that comes
from like any like he's like the cops in the
wire like he's not he's not he's living a life
and then his job is being a cop like like it's
not what he wants is to like fix things with
his wife and have a kid and whatever like i also
think he like wants to annoy ted yeah in that
moment and so like his priority is not to do
his job yeah his priority is not to do his job
there's already like a baggage or weird like
thing that's keeping him from being responsible
and doing his job right he's like being vindictive,
just not taking care of this issue to upset the
mayor and being, like, obstinate about this mask
stuff probably because of the mayor. You know,
like, he doesn't seem interested in conspiracy
theory stuff. He's not interested in any of the
stuff that his wife or mother -in -law is saying.
Right. You know? He's not an ideologue. He's
banal. Right. He's just like... All this stuff
as a pretense for just like... To take the side
that he's on. Yeah. Because against the existing
power structure. Just like classic conservative.
Yeah. Just like, don't tread on me. Fuck the
government. I don't work for the government.
I work for the people. That kind of stuff. Yeah.
But, I mean, if Joe Cross, that idiot, was in
charge... He probably wouldn't be playing ball
with the tech lords the way that Ted Garcia is
the, you know, maybe slightly smarter conniving
left winger. Yeah. Joaquin Phoenix would probably
go on to Facebook and be like, well, they're
trying to bring this whole thing in here and
do this to us. And this is our town and it's
not fair. And I like it when a man could go to
work and do a thing. And Ted Garcia is going
to go on and be like, dude, this is woke. This
is going to get fucking. Lots of black lesbians
reparations or something. I think one of those
is worse than the other, but that's outside of
the movie. I think that he's coming down on both
sides just as hard. I think Joe is out of his
depth, though, because I think to be a mayor,
you do have to just be Ted. Of course. Actually
understanding the reality of capitalism and economies
and money and all this stuff means you end up
doing what Ted does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You sell
your soul. Obviously. I think if Joe was mayor,
he'd either end up doing that stuff because he
realizes he has to. Probably. Or he would fight
against it and then they'd send people to kill
him. Or something. They're always going to get
their way. The data center is always going to
get built. That's kind of the point. There's
no way to fight against it. They've controlled
both sides of the thing. You get one side worked
up, you get the other side worked up. Yeah, it's
a tactic. Divide and conquer. Same as it ever
was. It's actually a very old story. Which, you
want to get to one battle after another? Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Totally. One thing I thought was
very tonally different about this one is that
it doesn't seem as cynical and bleak, even though
there's aspects to that there. I think one battle
after another's choice to focus more on personal
relationships and the more intimate parts of
these characters' lives instead of a more macro
view of the time. makes it a very different movie
um that's kind of why like even before seeing
eddington i like had an expectation that it was
going to be very much about 2020 it'd be 2020
the movie and it exceeded those expectations
it was like 2020 the movie it was like 2020 to
2025 the movie right basically and hits all those
notes is really on that subject whereas i kind
of feel like one battle after another like It's
not really about the time as much as it is these
characters and this archetypal struggle that
you can apply to the time at large. Right. But
I think it's almost like coming from the opposite
direction that like Eddington is something that's
looking at a macro and then that tells you something
about the individuals involved and what they're
reckoning with. Whereas, like, One Battle After
Another is telling you about these individuals
and what they're reckoning with and then how
that applies to the culture. How it exists within
the macro. Yeah. And I think overall, One Battle
After Another has a more positive ending. You
know, it just has one of those more, like, life
-goes -on endings. Semi -sweet, you know? Whereas
Ari Aster is, like, you know, four for four.
Like, the darkness will win, you will be fucked,
it will be over. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I would agree.
Ari Aster, very bleak. Very bleak, man. Very
bleak. Paul Thomas Anderson, I would say something
is, there is something, yeah, there is something
bright at the end of the tunnel here or something.
There's, you know, I'm emotionally worked up
at the end of this movie. Yeah. Yeah. And not
because of the letter, but we'll get to that.
No. But yeah, I think like, Yeah, I was, by the
way, I was completely convinced of your, well,
we'll get to it. We'll get to it. But I watched
it again and you're right. We'll say that. Oh,
yeah? Yeah. Well, should we get into it? I guess
I wanted to just, you know, quickly just meditate
a little bit more on why these movies would be
compared and whatever and the differences. And
I really do think, like, they are both about
the same time. I really do think they're both.
trying to wrestle with and tackle these times
and i both i think they both go out of their
way to feature a character who is not from this
time who has to now reckon with this time who
was trained on a different algorithm who now
needs to deal with this shit that's like they
don't understand and doesn't compute you know
right But I think that's so much less a part
of one battle after another. You know what I
mean? I just kind of think that's not as much
the point as it is in Eddington. Because actually,
now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like I
know... Eddington is a big movie of lots and
lots of characters and whatnot, but I know who
the main character is of Eddington. Yeah, it's
Joe Cross. Completely, yeah. Yeah. But one battle
after another, I don't really necessarily know
who the main character of it is. And I really
don't the first time through. When I'm watching
the beginning, I'm not sure if Profitia is going
to be the... You know what I mean? Who knows
who's the main character? You don't even know
if Profitia is going to come back or not. Right,
right. Or is it going to be Sean Penn? Is it
going to be Leonardo DiCaprio? Who's the main
character of this movie? And then does it end
up being Willa? Or does it end up being Leonardo
DiCaprio? I think it's Willa. I think it's Willa's
story. She doesn't come into the movie until
like an hour in. Is it 45 minutes? Is it 45 minutes?
Yeah, it's probably 45 minutes. I don't know.
It's kind of an unconventional movie in the way
it's told, its structure. When we're saying it's
the personal to the... It's like, well, actually,
this is almost a more... like a less character.
I don't know. There's something, again, there's
something very Paul Thomas Anderson about it.
It's, it's, it's very, all his movies have that.
I mean, not all of them, but many of his movies.
But what I was saying about character likability
and stuff is like, I think, you know, I think
the performances in one battle after another
are like exuberant. Like they're some of the,
greatest performances I've seen in a while. I
mean, I'm using hyperbole, but it's just like...
Nobody gives it up like people do for Paul Thomas
Anderson, man. I know, dude. Like, the fact that
Sean Penn... I think Vice is the same way and
doesn't get the credit. No, dude, totally, totally.
There are incredible performances in all of his
movies. And it's a lot of what drives the movie
in a way that I don't think drives Eddington.
That's the only point I was trying to make as
a distinction. I still think the acting's great
in Eddington. I'm not trying to say, like, it's
not i get that but i would also i would say there's
a really great interview with paul thomas anderson
on the on the wtf podcast with mark maron and
on that um mark brings up to him he's like basically
like how important is the actor for you like
the like the performance part of it and whatever
and he's just like well that's the whole thing
like what do you mean and he's like well i don't
know like some directors And he's, like, obviously
referencing people like Kubrick or something
or whatever, where, like, the actor is more of
a tool or something and stuff. And Paul Tomasini
is just like, dude, I don't know. Like, when
I watch a movie, I don't know what else I'm watching
other than performances. Like, that's what I'm
watching. Like, you know? And I think that, like...
A lot of movies have forgotten that. Yeah, I
mean, often when we're analyzing movies on the
podcast, we're not analyzing movies that are
these performance pieces as much. Like... It's
more about the meta -commentary happening and
characters, actors are tools and characters are
representational. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sort
of stuff. But Paul Thomas Anderson really does
get people to perform in a way that is beyond
what other people are doing. And I think that
he also, that comes from him running a very Altman
-esque set or something where there's a lot of
improvisation, a lot of playing around. He's
a guy. that is using the process of filmmaking
in a real auteur way. He's working beyond everybody
else. He really is. And it's evident. I've just
rewatched a bunch of his movies recently, and
it's evident in every single one of these movies.
He's working on another level as far as that
aspect of the craft. Sure, but I think it's also
evident when you listen to him talk that he's
a searcher, like you said before. Exactly. Um,
I think he is so much more open to collaboration.
Yeah. Just ideas coming from his actors. Like
he always talks about how he like never directs
his actors. Performance is his whole movie and
he barely has to say anything to his performers.
Well, I don't know. Did you, did you listen to
the, the, um, interview with Paul Thomas Anderson
and Spielberg? I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where
he talks about like how basically the whole,
uh, Benicio del Toro part is just like something
that Benicio came up with. Yeah, exactly. What
if I'm running like an underground railroad of
Mexican immigrants and stuff? Like, all right,
sure. Let's go with that. Like, that's a huge
part of the movie. What are you talking about?
It was Benicio's idea. And it's like, he's willing
to do that. That's ridiculous. That's the only
reason why that part of the movie takes so long
is just because like, oh, he was coming up with
a lot of ideas. Yeah. And they're all fun. And
that's why we watch movies. You know? And then,
you know, and then when he mentions the idea,
even not about performance, but even about camera
work, when he was saying like the entire last
scene of the movie, which is so iconic and so
beautifully staged, didn't have that idea until
he saw the location. Right, right. Yeah. You
know, it's like, oh, you see a location and then
you have an idea about how you shoot it. You
never would have had that idea just sitting in
a room trying to write it on a computer screen.
He's very open to. finding the movie as it gets
made right and that's why like when he ends up
talking about the movie afterwards like mark
maron like accused him of talking about the movie
like he had nothing to do with it right he's
not a director who's like this is what i wanted
to do and i just wanted to convey this kind of
idea there's no pretension to paul thomas anderson
yeah it is so i don't know i feel like i'm just
saying what i've heard other people say about
it he's like yeah yeah yeah it's about family
and i haven't i haven't I haven't heard any interviews
with Ari Aster, really, so I don't really know
what his personality is like. I feel like I've
seen him talk once before, and he seems like
a pretty quiet, introverted dude in the way that
Paul Thomas Anderson is. He's the type of guy
who's fearless enough to do acid with Nathan
Fielder. Well, there's that. There is totally
that. If that's a person that exists, I know
enough about him there to know something about
him now. Ari Aster might be a little smarter
than Paul Thomas Anderson, but Ari Aster thinks
too hard and then ends up making a movie that
feels more simple than Paul Thomas Anderson,
who doesn't think as hard or something. I don't
know. Maybe. I don't know if there's a reason
to compare their intelligences, but I would say
that maybe Paul Thomas Anderson comes to it through
feeling in a way that Ari Aster comes to it through
intellect. Sure, sure. I'm not saying one's smarter
than stupid even. I'm just saying the way Paul
Thomas Anderson's work comes off as someone who
is more loose, flexible, allowing things to happen,
allowing for performance, allowing for indulgences.
Whereas Ari Aster's movie feels controlled, contrived,
tight. Everything is like a very specific detail
that feels like it came from him. And that's
not a problem. It's just like, for some reason...
When Kubrick does it, it's something... Many
great auteurs have that going on. Sure. But I
think even though Eddington feels like a movie
that's about more, it ends up feeling more simple
than One Battle After Another for some reason.
I don't know why, but to me, One Battle After
Another still has more unanswered questions.
Yes. More... More that is just like enigmatic
and stewing underneath that like is obvious maybe
on a first viewing. Not figured out. Yeah, exactly.
Some irony. Messy. Some weird contradictions.
It's messy, yeah. I mean, Eddington's messy too.
Sure, Eddington's messy, but you know what I
mean when I say all this. But I guess, yeah,
do you want to get into some of the... The things,
because like... Yeah, I mean, I thought, I think
one of the things that I thought was interesting
was, and part of the reason I thought it would
be interesting to pair these movies is kind of
the... We're having this conversation on stolen
land, screaming stuff that was going on in Eddington.
That archetype of that girl with her mask falling
down, screaming at her black boyfriend that he's
not racially woke enough or whatever. And that
we're having this conversation on stolen land
and that sort of thing. That seemed to me to
be an encapsulation of an archetype. And similarly,
I thought that, you know, Profitia Beverly Hills
saying, you know, free bodies, free choices and
freedom from fucking fear. And and Bob's, you
know, fuck the police, all cops or whatever he
says, like that sort of stuff was also, you know,
a similar archetype. And I think that that that
was something that I didn't. I got into kind
of an argument with actually about this a little
bit. And I thought that both of these movies
are movies that are choosing to be zeitgeist
movies about today. I mean, the thing that I
think is really interesting about One Battle
After Another is that it like very clearly is
based on like a 60s to 80s. like transition paradigm
where you've got like the weather underground
and there are terrorists in the, in the, you
know, early seventies and whatnot, and they have
to go underground and stuff. And then you'd think
maybe, you know, how many years later, 16 years
later, 15, 15, 16, 15 years later, they're trying
to, you know, put the pieces back together and
looking back on what happened to the revolution
now that we're living in, you know, Reagan's
eighties and, you know, the stock market's taking
over and the revolution is dead and blah, blah,
blah. And that's been kind of applied to a time
that, that does not exist at all. Like that we're
talking about 2025 and what, like 2010, 20, like,
are we talking about Are we talking about Occupy
Wall Street time period is when this terrorist
group, the French 75, actually was in their heyday?
What is the heyday of them? And what actually
is that kind of archetype? And to me, I think
that it's very clear that these are parodic,
over -the -top caricatures. and perfidia is a
like ridiculous i mean recently i was watching
um drawn together do you remember that show from
like the early 2000s and fucking um i've never
i've never watched it but i'm aware of it central
it's just like you've got all of these different
cartoon archetypes that are just like racist
basically you've got like you know you've got
the like japanese hello kitty girl and you've
got the like whatever and then they've got a
black girl who's chocolate love or something
like you know what i mean and she just like wears
like it's just kind of like perfidious beverly
hills this character like felt to me like uh
just like okay this is chocolate love right and
again this is like a weird 70s archetype to be
like applying to today and stuff but i also think
that it is a powerful archetype today and i think
the jungle pussy is like the real name of the
real girl who played jungle pussy and stuff and
they're they are kind of tapping into an idea
of wokeness i think that is modern and they're
taking kind of this this 70s sort of blaxploitation
um weather underground like this this whole sort
of black panther aesthetic thing and they're
applying it to an era where that concept is ridiculous
and hilarious on the face of it because what
is it they're fighting for they're fighting for
free bodies free choices freedom from fear and
it's like they're fighting for vague I don't
know. You know what I mean? No, sure, sure. What
is it that these characters kind of are and are
talking about? And what is the revolution that
this is? It is a comedy, too. Like you said,
it is just funny to have a character named Jungle
Pussy and all this stuff. Yeah, but that's also
her stage name, the girl who plays Jungle Pussy.
No, sure, sure. Teyana Taylor has a thing that's
this pussy don't pop for you. Steven J. Lockjaw
is also a goofy Pinchonian kind of name, you
know? Exactly. And none of these things come
from the book. Lockjaw didn't exist in the book.
The character that Profitia is in the book isn't
black. None of this stuff comes from the book.
Because for those who don't know, this is loosely
based on Vineland, but I would say he's just
giving Vineland and Pynchon credit for just what
sparked this idea. Kind of like he gave Upton
Sinclair's oil credit for There Will Be Blood
or whatever. Right, right. Exactly. He's being
fair about where the ideas are coming from, but
this movie is not an adaptation of Vineland one
-to -one at all. In fact, it's hard to imagine
that there's that much that applies when so much
of this is based on this racial aspect that's
not a part of the book at all, the terrorist
group that's not a part of the book at all, characters
like Lockjaw who are not in the book at all.
I haven't read the book, but I've been told that
a lot of these things are not connected. Maybe
Leonardo DiCaprio's character of Bob and, you
know, his daughter Willa, I guess, come from
the book and them hiding out in the woods. Well,
I think what you said about this feeling something
more like the 70s, 80s, like, I mean, you know.
That's got to come from the book, right? Because
that is the paradigm that you were talking about
in the book, right? I haven't read Violin, but
what Paul Thomas Anderson said that he got from
the book was specifically. this dynamic of an
old revolutionary who was living in the woods
with his daughter right and then the past comes
back to haunt them i think or maybe not maybe
that doesn't even happen because there's no lockjaw
but i think it was that mainly that image which
is also like the way hana starts and whatever
and like right right leave no trace yeah yeah
there's the precedent for like the old revolutionary
or you know the person who used to fight battles
like who had to become a recluse and run away
from it all and then, like, train his child to
become the person he passes the torch to when
the past comes back to haunt them. Pretty, like,
standard kind of narrative that has precedence,
you know? But, yeah, I think, like, especially
in comparison to Edison, like, it's very clear
that the guy who made one battle after another
is... a romantic Gen Xer, whereas, like, the
guy who made Eddington is a cynical millennial.
I think the Gen Xers are hardly ever romantic
purely, though, even as a generation. Yeah, but
he's an old Gen Xer, and he has, like, a mixed
-race child. There's also, like, obviously very
personal things in this movie for him. Like,
he is Bob. He's, like, the white guy who is,
like, Who's like, this is not his battle, but
he's close to it because he loves people. Yeah,
I mean, I feel this to a certain degree. But
I also don't think that Perfidia Beverly Hills
is the same as a girl who is the funniest person
on Saturday Night Live in 20 years. Maya Rudolph
is not just a black girl who is just like the...
You know what I mean? Perfidia is a... caricature
of black revolutionary so it is like she's a
she's a character that paul thomas anderson's
wife might play but he's not saying like this
is what black women are and like i like bob am
into this because i also have a mixed race kid
like i understand like i i get that the mixed
race kid thing has obviously like like real stuff.
And him saying, I don't know how to do her hair
and stuff is like so sweet and like learned.
I know. I just feel like, I feel like that's
a conversation he's had or like, that's something
like Maya does her hair. I don't know how to
do it. Yeah. I get like some of that stuff, but
I also think that like the idea that like he
would not be commenting on. like i don't know
that like to me when i saw jungle pussy taking
over the bank and it's like this is what revolution
looks like i'm jungle pussy okay it's like and
she's just going up there like it's a drag show
like playing this like what character of wokeness
that's just like what the fuck are we doing like
this is a joke we're laughing at this right like
it is ridiculous to talk like that and stuff
right like this is funny Like, I don't think
that just because he is married to Maya Rudolph
means that he can't see the difference between
Maya Rudolph and that. You know what I mean?
I never said that, man. No, I know. This is a
conversation I had. The only point I was trying
to make is like, oh, this is the conversation
you have. Yeah, we got into an argument where
he's like, no, he's obviously, and it's like,
no, no, because he's in a relationship with a
real black woman, that's the type of person who
knows the difference between black women and
what perfidia is. It's only white liberals who
don't know the difference between perfidia and
all black women. You know what I mean? It's like,
no, no, this is a depiction of a real black woman.
It's like, no, this is a depiction of a crazy
sociopath that happens to have a black aesthetic
that you as a woke person find attractive. That
is not the same. You know what I mean? Well,
maybe we would have a disagreement on how honest
Profitia is as a character. But overall, I think
all the characters in this movie feel very real.
I understand that they're all archetypal cartoons,
just like in Eddington. But for some reason,
these characters feel more real to me. They feel
more dynamic. They feel more alive. And I just
feel like a lot of that's probably informed by
real -life honest stuff. I agree completely.
And I think that everybody's bringing as much
honesty as they can. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But,
yeah, everything is still kind of an archetype.
It's kind of a cartoony thing. But I think there
is a lot of truth. Yeah, like I think, yeah,
Perfidia is selfish. She is a sociopath. But
I think... it is a representation of the most
kind of insane and extreme pathology that can
come out of the situation that a black woman
is in, you know? Like, I just think there are
things about black women that like, if you know,
inform the character a little better. Like, I
agree. I think the first time I saw this movie,
I like hated perfidia. And I was like, kind of
just like, this character, like, is almost just
so one -dimensionally, obnoxiously self -centered.
And just, I don't know, yeah, sociopathic and
whatever. There's nothing that really puts you
against a character more than someone who abandons
their child. Just so that they can, like... free
immigrants from like detainment camps or whatever
you know or blow up banks or whatever like you're
gonna abandon your child um and she's yeah she's
annoying every time she talks you're just like
oh my god this fucking bitch is just fronting
all the time but like the second the second time
i saw it i really did like feel like something
showed through the cracks more that made me feel
like she was so much more real Then I gave her
credit for it and that she was interesting and
layered and whatever. And I, I don't know. I
just think like there probably isn't like a bigger
minority than the black woman in America, especially
one that's like a civil rights activist who wants
to like protect the rights of minorities and
people who are exploited and whatever. And they
might be very, very familiar and close to a life
of exploitation and not really having many resources.
And it's a stereotype, but it's commonly known
that many black households are matriarchal. Black
women end up dominating the homes and they develop
very, very assertive personalities because if
they didn't, people would walk all over them.
And I think what's really, really interesting
about perfidia as she seems to be like the most
pathological expression of a person who feels
so powerless that in every single interaction
she has, she needs to figure out a way to have
the upper hand and have more power in the dynamic.
And, um, she kind of meets her match with Steven
J Lockjaw, right? Because like, That's what's
so funny about their initial interaction is that
every time one of them talks, it is just another
escalation of the power struggle. He's not afraid
when she shows up and points a gun at him, so
he kind of wins. And then he thinks it's hot,
but then she takes control by being like, get
it up. Do what I tell you. And it's literally
just like a back and forth where one is trying
to show that they're the alpha. And Lockjaw kind
of puts her in a corner and gives her an ultimatum
when she's planting that bomb in the bank and
he shows up in the bathroom and he gets behind
her and she's in a really vulnerable position.
And he's kind of just like, I don't really care
what you do, but I want my hat and gun back.
this shit's over. Your friends are fucked. I
think at that point it shows she still cares
about her friends. She's trying to protect them
by going to Lockjaw's apartment. I think that
then the next shot you see is of her having a
gun to Lockjaw's head and him being completely
powerless and her choosing not to pull the trigger
of that gun that she brought and to the thing
and had to his like that instead she is using
that to put herself above her entire situation
and move up uh beyond the revolution that just
it's a selfish sociopathic self like protection
sure it's protection self -protection um but
it is I mean, I'm sure that everything Lockjaw
did in his life, he would say, was protecting
himself too. I don't know. And if he felt victimized
as a child, then he could spend his whole life
saying that it was because of his inherent victimization
that he had to become Lockjaw. And then, oh,
well, then he's a hero. But I think that what
Perfidia does in this movie is monstrous. And
I don't think that that's something that... all
black women do or all black women get a pass
for doing or anything i think no and no one's
i'm not saying that and i think if that was the
interpretation you had of the movie that would
be wrong um i'm not i'm not building a case right
now for giving perfidia a pass i'm building a
case for how much more complex the dynamics with
perfidia and lockjaw are than you might think
at first that's all um And what gives understanding
to the scenario as things that are motivated
by something as opposed to just... Self -interest.
I don't know. I think that perfidia puts herself
first and you're scared of that because I put
myself first. And that's... literally all she
is and the only reason that bob is attracted
to her is because she has a large ass like i
i like and yeah that's when he's young and when
he grows older he becomes a more sympathetic
but i i don't see that bob and perfidia's love
is that much purer than lockjaw and perfidia's
love i think that perfidia and lockjaw are much
closer characters like uh they're both sociopathically
self -interested and willing to kill everybody
that ever meant anything to them in order to
get what is theirs true yeah perfidy and lockjaw
are much more similar but anyway just let me
finish my case real quick on perfidia before
like we because you can you can definitely give
me your case and i might agree with most of it
but i just like We don't need to argue about
the point of whether or not she did it completely
out of self -interest. I think I'm going to give
her the benefit of the doubt that she cares about
her friends a little bit. She did. She didn't
stop them from all being murdered because...
Okay, this is later. Let me build the case. First
thing that happens is he comes up behind her
when she's trying to plant the bomb at the bank,
gives her an ultimatum that she can't really
say no to unless she wants to go into hiding
and have all her friends killed. So... The next
shot is she's holding a gun to his head and having
sex with him. But I think it would be very literal
-minded for you to think that, like, she's actually
the one in control here. Well, I think that there's
a lot of ways that you could have degrading sex
with a locked jaw being degraded by this black
woman sexually and whatnot and being powerful
without having it be like... Oh no, literally
there's a gun to his head. You have all of the
power to like far beyond this actual moment.
Like he's giving you all of the power and now
you're choosing to be his sub. She can't actually
get away with that though. She can't, it's like,
like he knows that he has her. Like that's the
point, you know, like when they met, she was
holding a gun to him and he was still able to
make her feel powerless when she did that. That
made her have to up the ante and try to command
him to do something embarrassing. Whatever, you
know what I mean? It's like the gun is like,
yeah, it's a symbol, a visual symbol of like
who's trying to be in charge right now. But I
just think it's more interesting than that. I
think it's more dynamic than that. Like I'm not
saying that she's getting raped because I believe
like that's a strong word. What happens between
the two of them, what happens to perfidia would
never have been considered a rape. Anytime before
Me Too, post -Me Too, the definition of rape
expanded to absolutely include what's happening
to Profitia. I don't think that's Paul Thomas
Anderson trying to say that it is rape, but I
think that it is interesting that that's there
and that what is happening between these two
characters is a power struggle. And in the end,
Profitia loses. She gets to run away, and who
knows what happens with her life. Does she get
to run away? We don't know that. I mean, we see
her disappear into Mexico, but fucking. Who knows?
Yeah. There's a lot of vagueness. They do mention
she died, right? Well, that was a lie. I killed
that bitch. Was it a lie? I mean, that was a
lie, I think. I don't know. Do we know? I mean,
it is. Lockjaw offhandedly says that he killed
her, but we don't see that he didn't. I guess
that's true. Did Lockjaw say I killed that bitch?
He would not have been aware of the mythology,
I guess you're right. Maybe it was in the Christmas
Adventurers meeting, but I think it might have
been... No, I think it was when he's talking
to Willa and he said, like, he's got a mouth
on you like your mother and, like, I killed her
in the end or something like that. There was
some... Fuck, man, this is the thing. This is
the thing about watching movies that have only
just come out and we haven't seen, like, a million
times. But... Yeah, there was something like
that. And I'm not sure, we don't know whether
or not she's alive. I think that would have stood
out to me because, like, at that moment, Willa's
already learned that her mom is still alive and
that that was, like, a lie. And I feel like he
said that to the Christmas Adventure people to
really establish, like, yeah, I killed her, you
know, like, trying to... No, no, I don't think
it's him saying it to the... No, it's an offhanded
comment. It's not like he's trying to convince.
I don't know. It doesn't matter. I mean, it might
matter because this is where there is a lot of
gray areas. Like what I wanted to get into about
what happens next is that, yes, Profitia is holding
the gun to his head. They're having sex. She
chooses not to pull the trigger. She chooses
instead to let him live so they can continue
to have their tryst. And she can continue to
get away with the things. Because, of course,
pulling the trigger on him would have totally
worked out for her. But when she's leaving the
motel outside, I think that's one of the few
moments when you see Perfidia, her body language,
the way her face looks, that's one of the few
moments where she's not performing. She's not
fronting. Her true insecurity and anguish is
all coming through the cracks. You also kind
of see it right after she leaves the bathroom,
after being given the ultimatum by Lockjaw. A
lot of fear and worry crossing her eyes. She
looks really weak all of a sudden. She doesn't
show it to people. I mean, yeah, but see, this
is the thing. That could be the way that you
feel if you're being taken advantage of. That's
one way of interpreting that look and whatnot.
But I feel like that look could also be the look
of her being like, fuck, I'm deceiving my boyfriend
here. But really, I'm going to go get fucked
by Lockjaw, which is what I really want. And
that's really fucked up. I'm confused about the
way that I feel and whatever. But if he gives
me a gun and makes me hold it to his head, I'm
not going to pull the trigger because this is
a choice that I'm making right now not to tell
my boyfriend and not to pull the trigger. And
hopefully, maybe that'll get me favors in the
future or whatever, like it actually does. And
then everybody else is disposable because I actually
can. In the end, maybe Lockjaw kills me, maybe
not. It actually is good politics to be in bed
with the enemy a little bit. Exactly. And to
put yourself first. You're just mad because I
put myself first. Yeah, yeah. I just think when
she says that, that's Profitia, the actor, and
whatever. And she holds to it. She has an ideology
she holds to. But I give her a little bit more
credit than you do that there's a lot of internal...
like anguish. No, I mean, I think she's having
a postpartum depression episode. Absolutely.
Like she's jealous of her child. She's like,
there's definitely things happening emotionally.
There's also a history of fucking slavery in
this country. There's this racism. It is a thing.
I would say less so maybe in the 2010s and whatever,
which were like the flashback times happened
during Obama. Why would she want to raise the
baby that Lockjaw put in her? You know, she knows
it's his. I don't know. Like, It just seems complicated
to me, and that doesn't give her a pass. I mean,
why would Bob? Well, Bob doesn't know, but Bob
also isn't. Bob does know, I think, though. Like,
Bob knows and doesn't care. We don't know if
Bob knows and doesn't matter. That's why it never
comes up, because Bob would do the right thing
either way. Why would Bob do the right thing
either way, but Profitia wouldn't? Is it because
of a history of... or something like that? No.
Do you know what I mean? Or is it because Profiti
is a bad person? I mean, yeah. And Bob is a good
person. Well, yeah. Profiti is a bad person and
Bob's a good person. And I understand it's as
simple as that. And she's really just not a very
redeeming character. But I don't know. I'm not
trying to give her a pass or make excuses for
her behavior because I do find it abhorrent.
But I'm just trying to suggest that maybe she's
more complicated and nuanced. then people give
her credit because if she's not, then she is
basically just the Jezebel stereotype that everyone
is saying that she is. And Tiana Taylor has responded
to that kind of presenting the sort of argument
I am, which is that she is a person who needs
to use her sexuality to survive and have the
upper hand and to not be a victim. But to me,
I think it's putting that thing in a place where
you can see what's monstrous about it, where
it's not taking care of its child because it
wants to go out and rob a bank and kill someone
for no reason so that they can get away with
killing all of their friends and going to the
man that will save them and they can restart
because they're worried because they gave birth
to the wrong kid. You know what I mean? I mean,
it's a horrible situation, but it's one she kind
of put on herself. Like I said, I never said,
like, any of this gives her a pass. And I also,
most of what I'm saying is only, like, to say
that all these characters feel, like, human and
understandable to me. It doesn't mean they're
all good. I agree. Because I think the same can
be said about Lockjaw. Like, I don't think Lockjaw
is, like, a good person. He's a fascist. And
he's, like, really, really, like. got the wrong
fucking priorities. He's completely poisoned.
He's opposite end of the spectrum is perfidia.
He's like poisoned by the system in a different
way and has a different kind of pathology that
comes from his privilege and power that he's
wielded, you know, as opposed to like the lack
thereof or whatever. I mean, or it's the lack
thereof too. He's just a, he's just a part of
a system that he's a cog in. And then the only
way to move up in that system is to pull one
of these moves that he pulls and then moves up
in the system because he pulls the move. But
that's the pathology is chasing that power and
chasing the rising up in that system. The pathology
is that he always puts himself first and you
mad because he puts himself first. Well, okay.
Yeah, we can simplify to that. But it also seems
like the pathology is about gaining something.
And that's an idea he's been sold as something
that's important. Because he also specifically
says to Willa that joining the Christmas Adventures
Club is a higher honor, even a higher honor than
having you. That there are things in life that
are more important than having children. I think
that is a pathology that people have been sold
on either end of the spectrum. That you can replace
the importance of that act with... being a revolutionary
and saving people's lives or having a career
or like, uh, being part of an elite society that
has like power and control over the world and
whatever. Lockjaw is a very, very pitiable, sad
character, especially in the end, his second,
his second death in the office is one of the
most like pathetic things imaginable. Like, um,
for a character who like, survives that badass
first death of getting shot in the face and just
has like such a intense command about him in
most scenes you know but like there's an underlying
patheticness and security and like he's like
he like almost just seems like a little boy in
that last scene when he starts to cry over the
office and stuff there's one person that he put
above himself and it was Profitia and then she
just gave him the finger and then he's, and then
he hates the world, you know, but there is something
pathetic to that. There is something empathetic.
Like we, we empathize somewhat with that, that
it was, but I think that that's the thing is
I think that, uh, people are seeing this just
as like, no, this is this evil. I don't know.
I think there's love between perfidy and lockjaw
and that they're both evil. Like, you know, well,
what is, um, what is, uh, Austin Butler say?
In Eddington, Austin Butler says, Joe, you want
things to be simple. You can't imagine that with
all that pain, there's also love. Right, right.
I think this movie is complicated, too. I do
not deny the idea that there's actual sexual
attraction, at the very least, or love between
Profitia and Lockjaw, that they actually understand
each other more than Bob understands her. Because
Bob is also just like, you know, he's just like
the kids. In, uh, Eddington are doing it for
the pussy. Right. Right. That's what he says
in the first scene. Yeah. I like black girls.
What do you think I'm doing here? And I don't
think, um, Lockjaw is doing it solely for the
pussy. The pussy becomes kind of like a, um,
he's doing it for the power. He's putting pussy
ahead of his career at that point. Yeah. And
it's a mistake. It's something that like. Could
theoretically fuck up his chances to climb the
ladder. Once she breaks his heart, he decides
it's a mistake. Once the Christmas adventurers
come to him and say we want you to join the club.
Which is way after she breaks his heart. But
I think it's before that. I think it's when she
breaks his heart that that happens. I think it's
like in this whole section of the movie and some
parts of it earlier where you actually do see
a true expression of the type of power he has.
Lockjaw is the kind of person who can, like,
take a personal goal and then, like, rally his
entire military unit to do that under some kind
of other pretense. Right. You know? And, like,
you know, raid an entire town and, like, just
start, like, causing all this chaos and then,
like, extra judicially kill people. Which I guess
is a question, but that was the other thing that
I really thought was vague and had questions
about, is that she murders someone in the bank
job, gets caught, Lockjaw comes in, gives her
another ultimatum, says you have to name names,
and that can get you out of this. But what's
weird about that is it ends up going into a kind
of... super cut with a lot of jump cuts that
jump around you're not really sure like exactly
where things fall in time but you see her like
getting put into witness protection and at that
point her trial hasn't even happened yet so like
she hasn't named names yet she hasn't gone to
trial But she may have named names to Lockjaw.
Yeah, of course. She named names to Lockjaw.
That's what she did. And then he went and killed
everybody. That's what named names is. And then
he gets into power for taking down the whole
thing. Okay, then why is there a trial set up?
Why is she being put into witness protection?
And also, why does she need to name names? He's
always been perfectly capable of finding them
wherever they are. Have you noticed that? He
keeps showing up wherever she's going to put
a bomb next. The idea that he can't find these
people is ridiculous. But then also, how can
he just extrajudicially kill all these people
and then get a medal for it when there's an ongoing
trial set up? Do you remember which medal it
was? I don't remember, no. I think it was the
Nathan Bedford Forrest Medal of Honor. Really?
It was the Bedford Forest Medal or something,
yeah. That's interesting. Founder of the KKK.
But there's something really vague about that.
It feels like she runs away before her trial
date, but he already killed everyone anyway.
It's because it's all a fucking cartoon of justice
and reality. It's like, see, the police, they
kill this many people. It's all the cartoon version.
And these are all the arch versions of the thing.
So, yeah, how can Lockjaw do this? Obviously
he can't. That's not the way that reality works.
We all know that this is a cartoon. why it's
so ridiculous it's like why none of it like it's
and it's the same with like why the black girl
calls herself jungle pussy and like i know that
this girl in real life called herself jungle
pussy but they hired a girl who in real life
called herself jungle pussy to represent blackness
in this movie that's i mean so so In the Marc
Maron episode, Paul Thomas Anderson talks about
Putney Swope as being like one of the things
that got made him start like wanting to make
movies, wanting to get into it. And like this
is made by the guy who made who loves Putney
Swope. Like this is there is part of the joke
here is like how funny black people are for.
being that way like you know that is that is
like a thing and I know that Paul Thomas Anderson
has a black wife but like again like he doesn't
have a like wife who calls herself jungle pussy
and like talks in a way like you know what I
mean it's it's he's got a very talented wife
who is black and whatever he didn't just like
find the girl who has the biggest ass You don't
need to fight this straw, man. I was never saying
that his relationship with a black woman informed
all these black female characters. No, no, I
know, I know. But I think the part of the thing
is that he is not that sympathetic to this revolution.
I don't think that this revolution are the good
guys. I don't think that... Bob is somehow like
correct about it. Like, I think, I think there
is a, I think in the end we can get to Bob. Cause
I think that there is a heroism to Bob and whatnot
and Willa. And I just think you judge, I think
you judge the critique of perfidia a lot more
than the critique of a lockjaw. Like you're more
focused on the critique of the left than the
critique of the right. But I think this kind
of gets to a point. that I realize is very interesting
about the way people respond to this movie, that
it's a bit of a litmus test. It's a bit of a
Rorschach. I think some people watch this and
think this movie is super woke and leftist. That's
exactly right. It's a movie that has them liberating
the immigrant camp. It's only making a mockery
out of the right. Yeah, yeah. But then people
like you will be like, oh, this is totally making
a mockery of the left. Yeah, but I think a big
problem is that there are a lot of people who
are not seeing that it's doing both. I think
that like Bredesen Ellis has come out as talking
about like how annoying it is that Paul Thomas
Anderson has gotten so woke and whatever. And
it's like, no, the problem is that woke has gotten
so parodic that you can't tell the difference
between parody and reality because reality is
so parodic already. I think that Paul Thomas
Anderson is doing this in a tongue -in -cheek
way, where it's like when they say free bodies,
free choices, freedom from fear, that is like
banality. That is utterly, you're saying absolutely
nothing and you have nothing to fight for. You're
just freedom from everything and we're the ones
that are right because we're saying freedom in
our slogan three times. Freedom from hunger,
freedom from bad weather, and freedom from pain
in the, you know, feet. I don't know. Sure, sure.
But they're also called the French 75, which
is like, I mean, they're named after a cocktail,
you know. I mean, the cocktail is named after,
like, an old cannon that was, like, discontinued
after World War I or something. Okay. But like,
but they're named after a cocktail, you know,
like that's just as unserious as like the Christmas
Adventurers Club. Well, that's the thing is I
also think that people are seeing this and saying
like, well, yeah, it's parodic and it's over
the top. Right. But we're talking about how behind
everything is white supremacy. Like that's the
point is that it's all about like behind the
power structure behind everything. It is all
just white supremacy is running everything. Right.
And it's like. No, I think that the point is
that's the cartoon that you believe in that he's
depicting. Like that, like the type of people
who think that Profitia Beverly Hills is a sympathetic
character and that somebody calling herself jungle
pussy is a serious person that we should take
seriously. And that, you know what I mean? This
is, yes, I think it is. It's a litmus test in
some ways, but I think it's important to point
out those things. Cause like, again, like when
I was talking to about this, we got into like
the last, um the reading of the letter and stuff
and i'm just like dude the problem with that
letter is that it says nothing it's so banal
there's like nothing going on in it and stuff
he's like yeah no obviously like that's everybody
knows that the letter is supposed to be taken
ironically and i was just like no not everybody
knows that you can't not everybody is a smart
savvy enough viewer to know that this letter
is not just a straightforward thing. Many people
are going home being like, oh man, good. It leaves
you with a good taste in your mouth. Maybe the
revolution will come back in this new generation
because now there's a new mixed race girl who's,
you know what I mean? It's like people do take
things wrong. I think it's important to kind
of point out. There's also the opposite too.
There's the opposite too of people reacting the
way I did the first time, which is just like,
that didn't hit. That just felt so fucking generic
after all this other stuff that happened in this
movie that felt fresh and subversive. You're
just going to leave us with this fucking schmaltzy
nothing letter that makes the daughter feel like
she can continue in her mother's footsteps to
fight the good fight and go to a protest. Go
rewatch Lady Bird and see how to do it right.
You know what I mean? Like, that letter has made
me cry before, but fucking in this movie, it
was just bad, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get
it, I get it. Yeah, it is bad. Yeah, she expresses,
like, lazy regret and asks a bunch of banal questions
about where, you know, Willa is in her life or
whatever. Like, it's... Were we wrong about the
revolution? Yeah, are you going to... Are you
doing okay? I hope you're... It's such a nothing
burger. Yeah, yeah. And again, like talking to
like, well, no, everybody knows that's a nothing
burger. Obviously, you're supposed to think it's
like, no, no, no, no, no. You have to point out
to people that. And again, I think you need to
point out to people that like Profitia Beverly
Hills is not a heroic character just because
she is black. Jungle Pussy is not a serious person
just because she is black. The revolution is
not serious just because it is siding with black
people. Like and the fact that white supremacy
is behind the government is not like a. true
statement of the way things actually are in reality,
it's kind of just as ridiculous as these other
archetypes and stereotypes that we're looking
at. Oh, I agree. But that's why I think a very
sober look at all of it leads you to think that
they are all sympathetic characters. I agree.
I agree. I think this, unlike Eddington, is sympathetic
to everyone. Yeah, yeah. I think if you're going
to focus on perfidia and not and not lockjaw
then that's like that's an imbalance you know
like because i feel like yeah there's people
who watch the movie who who will be like you're
lionizing this black antifa person and turning
this uh white american man of the law into a
clown but basically i think like perfidia and
lockjaw are both complex human characters who
are both very sympathetic They're both very,
very complex and sympathetic, and they're also
both very, very evil and clowns. Exactly. Yeah.
Exactly. And I think it's important to point
one out because I think that the other one is
so obvious, right? But it's like... Yeah, exactly.
I get why you're spending more time on perfidia.
But, dude, I just don't understand who would
watch this movie and think Profitia is likable
at all. Like, that was a thing. No, no, honestly,
like, me. Like, honestly, like, a lot of people.
Like, I find that to be kind of, like, a fun,
like, I like the black girl who says fuck you
to the thing. There's, like, that is an aesthetic.
It's just, like, it's just, like, when we...
as kids watch something like revenge of the nerds
and are like i'm a nerd i side with that it's
like if there's a black girl who's saying fuck
you to like a big police officer guy it's like
yeah that's the good like i that's we do side
with that and aesthetically there's a certain
that now i think that he also added it it's not
my job to it they made it a little bit racist
and funny but like there is like that thing that
I think he's playing with that we do connect
with and just go like, oh, it's the underdog.
And that's the automatic, that's how you take
in a movie is you try and figure out what archetype
is this ascribed to and whatever and whose side
are we on and blah, blah, blah. This movie makes
it a lot harder, I think, because it's undermining
those things all the time. We're talking a lot
about these two characters. We haven't gotten
to Bob, who I really think we need to talk about.
No, I know, I know. I just think this is all
super important. This is the whole first part
of the movie. We haven't gotten to the whole
actual rest of the movie. I know. I know. I just
think this is important stuff because I think
it's like, I think it's one of the more misunderstood
parts of the movie. Like, I don't think like,
I think like people probably get Bob a little
more and get what that is, you know? But like,
I think there's a lot more confusing around,
around perfidia and lockjaw and whatever. Here's
my question is if this is 2025 and then 16 years
ago or whatever, we're looking at like 2009,
are we talking about like, The French 75 is like
the Occupy Wall Street contingent sort of thing.
And then now they're the Resistance Libs sort
of thing. Just like in Eddington, it was the
Resistance Libs on the street and whatever. So
now in this, they're kind of the Resistance Libs
too, or what? I think they're basically a really
cartoony version of what the Resistance Libs
would want to be. if they were actual revolutionaries
and they actually wanted to get their hands dirty
and stuff. Right. If they were, like, the weather
underground and they were blowing shit up and,
like, actually gumming up the works. Like, maybe
they don't have a specific plan on how to make
things better, but they do know how to, like,
disrupt what the system is doing and cause chaos
and whatever. That's not what resistance libs
are doing by protesting and voting and shit,
you know? It's another level. I think, like,
yeah, I think it kind of, like, is the most extreme
sort of representation of all those vibes at
that time, the kind of Occupy movement. I am
Legion, you know. But I think they're basically
Antifa, you know, in the most broad term, like,
not the specific group, whatever that even means.
Right. But just, like, they're anti -fascists.
Right. And I think that they're vague. lack of
anything. We don't even know what they're doing
most of the time. You know what I mean? It's
like, okay, we're going to go in, we're going
to blow this up, this thing. It's like, where
is this? Is this a courthouse, I guess? Why are
they... It doesn't matter. I also don't think
anything like these people existed during Occupy.
We're talking about the weather underground,
like you said. This is like a Gen Xers view of
the modern world through the lens of previous
decades. revolutionary actions and stuff you're
applying the weather underground thing to this
also previous generations of obsession with race
the whole like fetishization with black bodies
that i think is the thing that i think is the
thing that is also very relevant now it's just
different because back then there was a real
black revolutionary movement the weather underground
was a was a bullshit knockoff of like Yeah, the
true evolutionaries. The Black Panthers who actually
were doing stuff and actually were killed off
the way that Lockjaw killed off all the people
in the first 75 or whatever. Like, the Black
Panthers actually were really that. And then
the Weather Underground was just, like, people
like Bob who were like, we side with the blacks
because we, whatever, and we'll blow up the thing
and we'll, and do the, and, you know, and they
fucking ruined the world and turned everything
over to Nixon and, I don't know, but. They destroyed
the revolution because they actually were just
a bunch of fucking clowns who would rather fuck
and whatever than... It's like the cringy shit
in Eddington where the girl says like, oh, we're
not even allies yet. We're like white traitors
at best. Yeah, that is literally like Weather
Underground conversation stuff. But it also literally
is like nowadays conversation stuff too. It's
just that it happens on Facebook now where you've
got like teenage girls being like... We're having
this conversation on stolen... And the system
has properly castrated people. Eliminated the
Black Panthers. Yeah, there wasn't a group like
the Friends 75 blowing shit up in the 2010s.
And to pretend there was is ridiculous, so we
know that it's a joke and that the clownery is
like, oh, well, what if there was a millennial
revolution? It would be like this. It would be
about nothing. It would be violent and about
nothing and about just, like, not raising your
kids and putting yourself first and, like, calling
yourself jungle pussy and, like, that sort of
thing. And then, like, if it survives to today,
then, like... I think it does, like, I think
through his perspective, being between worlds
and being, like, older and wiser and looking
back a little more and stuff, which seems to
allow him to be a little bit more... positive
um he is really connecting like what the old
idea of woke was to the new idea of woke in some
ways you know like it's yes it's um wokeness
is the idea of wokeness is born from a really
true concept of becoming aware of systems of
oppression i like the idea of wokeness like we
all want to be woke like getting woke about that
shit is fun and it's exciting. And you feel like
you've escaped the matrix or something, you know,
it is waking up. It is being woke. It is being
like, Oh, it's all these systems of power and
control. Oh, it's all these things. Oh, like,
let's like, Oh, I can see that. I can see the
music now. I can see how all this is. It's Eddington.
It's like that stepping back and seeing the whole
macro. The invisible man, every time you take
a step out is another bigger conspiracy. So it's
connecting this old idea of woke to a bastardized
new version of woke where it's all about just
virtue signaling whether or not you care about
a certain issue of a minority group or not. Right,
right. And, you know, verbal aggressions. Microaggressions.
You know, and all the other little... Creating
problems out of basically... things that are
unproblematic and misgendering your your daughter's
friend yeah it's just like man all the other
important issues you are basically just a tool
of the powerful if you're gonna like um have
fights with your neighbors about how they gendered
you and whatever like you already are a tool
of the power it's like so are we going to just
argue about this or talk about how like All of
this is just like an expression of anxiety and
insecurity that you have no power in your life
and that none of us do. And we should sort of
like unite on this common ground that we are
all being fucked over and divided against each
other by these gigantic systems of power that
are mostly run by tech oligarchs. Well, not in
one battle after another. Yeah, well, one battle
after another is not macro. It doesn't show the
whole thing. It doesn't point the finger at the
tech. There's no tech. There's no AI. Well, I...
I mean, I think he does. I think he points a
finger out somewhere. I mean, I think that largely
it's racial in this case, right? Like you're
talking about white supremacy and blah, blah,
blah. Yeah, but like you said, I think that's
a joke. It's not just the white supremacy. It's
also the Mexicans who are all looking out for
the Mexicans. And like the only people who are
multiracial are the French 75 who like are just
doing an interracial thing where like everybody's
kind of. I don't know. It seems to be like a
kink thing or something, right? The Jewish girls
with the black guy and the black girls with the
guy. Everybody's interracial in their thing.
That is true, I think. Yeah, everybody's interracial
or alone. But outside of that, the Mexicans and
the whites, they're racially kind of looking
out for their own. All the nuns stick together,
but they're... The black nuns. Are they all black?
No, they're not all black. There's a couple white
ones in there, too, I think. Maybe they're just
light -skinned. His daughter's one of them. His
daughter's also in Licorice Pizza. She goes on
the date with a dude to the restaurant. Oh, that's
right. Yeah, but I think a lot of it is racially
based in this movie. And I think, I mean, just
like Eddington was this vision of America as
sort of this everyone downstream of the tech
overlords, I think this is kind of a depiction
of America as a bunch of warring tribes, racial
tribes and whatnot. I mean, the white supremacists
are, yeah, they have this infrastructure and
they maybe are the most powerful in this movie
and whatnot. But the Mexicans are just bringing
in Mexicans, too. Like, you know, it's not. Yeah,
but I still think that, like, the way that whole
Benicio Del Toro sequence goes down, the way
Bob is kind of, like, a part of that family,
even though he's not, like, a part of that family.
You know what I mean? How they're just, like,
there for him. How he's, like, earned the right
to their assistance. Yeah. There's a lot of great
details. A lot of people have pointed out that
Leonardo DiCaprio does the Mexican whistle perfectly
when he asks those guys for directions. I've
noticed on social media, because actually for
once, the response and conversation about this
movie was pretty interesting on social media.
People really liked it. This was kind of like
a movie that broke through a little bit, and
people were talking about it and getting excited
about it, and people were noticing details of
it and making little videos on Instagram about
it and whatever. But this is only for people
who actually know this stuff. There seems to
be a real care and attention to detail and being
honest and true about these little cultural...
I know that all of the cultural references to
60s groups and things like that were legit and
stuff. So I thought that was interesting. I don't
know. A lot of their weird speak and stuff is
referencing. references to other ideas or quoting
other things that just like they're the right
quotes they're the right ideas like they're it
yeah i just think it it it showed that like this
movie has a lot of depth a lot of details that
like just like i think i'm saying like if you
know you know kind of white culture I, I feel
like I saw a bunch of, if you know, you know,
you know, I saw a bunch of, if you know, you
know, stuff like only fucking white ass people
who have done like white ass research into like
the weather underground and shit, like would
care about, um, but I'm sure there's, if you
know, you know, for other things too. Yeah. Yeah.
For black people, for Mexican people. Um, there's
like little whistles in there, little signs that
point to things and whatever. Um, but mostly
just to care and attention of like wanting to
be authentic and honest. I think that's something
that this movie is much more delicate with and
handles much better than Eddington. But like
Eddington kind of gets a pass because it kind
of sets up a, yeah, it kind of sets up a white
town, almost predominantly white town where there's
like one black guy and the mayor's Hispanic.
And then there's the, the Native American tribe
or whatever. But it feels just like it's not
about COVID, it's not about race either. I mean,
it's not really like a discussion of racial tension.
I mean, racial tension is another tool in the
toolkit of the overlords who are trying to turn
people against each other to allow an AI takeover
during its great reset. But I think there's something
less delicate, more of like a hammer approach
to be like, look at this nearly all white town
losing their shit over this black man getting
murdered in Minneapolis as if it's their struggle
or their, or their mission. And then the one
black guy in town is a cop who they're yelling
at about not being like woke enough. So you're
part of the, you're like part of the system of
oppression. We know better than you. It's like,
I don't know. Another stereotype about black
people is that they're actually like the hardest
to manipulate and brainwash. Right. Well, at
least there's a more of a healthy skepticism
in black culture. Much more healthy skepticism.
Yeah. You know, vaccinations and things like
that, where they actually were sterilized for
many years by doctors who were pretending to
be vaccinating them. So there is some sort of
a reason to be paranoid. And an infrastructure
that is skeptical and whatever, which is a thing
that white people don't have. There you go. Yeah,
there you go. I think that's just another piece
of evidence that it kind of does matter what
happened to people in their history and how that
trains them to respond to current stimuli, which
is also part of all of us and our traumas and
how we are wired to respond to stimuli and behavior.
the controlling of this behavior that the systems
try to accomplish. I mean, I think all of this,
like in, in kind of in the case of both movies,
like a lot of this has to do with parenting.
Yeah. Right. Like, I mean, parenting is a bigger
part of one battle after another, but, uh, I
think, I think that legacy and whatnot, and the
idea in the lack of parenting happening in Eddington,
I think is interesting. Yeah, and it's also a
dark, cynical movie. There's like no real kids
in it. There's teenagers, but they're like, yeah,
very, very... I mean, they're being raised by
their new parents, the AI overlords. Yeah, exactly.
We're living in a, you know, post -childhood's
end. paradigm where the parents are the internet
and people's lives are not determined by the
inputs that their parents gave them but instead
by the inputs given them by the AI overlords
I think what's interesting in one battle after
another is that Bob at least isolated himself
from the internet being off the grid to be able
to raise a kid to raise a really good kid he
raised a kid with emotions who was like a sweet
person and today You know, he did that in modern
times. It's almost as out of place as the weather
underground or something. It's a difficult thing.
Oh, yeah, Willa is such a beautiful sweetheart.
And comparing her to the kids in Eddington is
just ridiculous. They're totally manipulatable
pieces of shit. They're total sheeple who are
looking for, like, the social gratification and
whatever. I mean, the mayor's son is a total
asshole. But, yeah, you're right. Like, the lack
of parenting, the vacuum of parenting in that
movie is what stands out more than any example
of parenting. And the new parent, you know, solid
gold magic cup is what's actually behind it all.
Yeah, exactly. And it seems to highlight, like,
the failures of parenting and parents raping
their children and not giving a shit about what
their kids are doing as long as it's not hurting
their political career. Whatever. That is there.
I didn't even think about that. And that is a
huge difference between these two movies. One
battle after another depicts a good dad. It depicts
a good dad. One good dad. And Sensei. Sensei's
our other dad. He's another great dad. He's awesome,
dude. They're so fucking... That section of the
movie is just so fucking good, dude. Benicio
Del Toro is just like... effortlessly killing
it yeah in a way that's like that I don't know
just like everything about that sequence his
vibe a few small beers his chill his a few small
beers one of the best do that yeah a few small
beers one of the funniest lines in the history
of filmmaking and it's just one of the greatest
it's just a line it doesn't it's not a good you
know what I mean if you if I came up with that
you'd be like okay great You have to see Benicio
Del Toro do it at this point in this movie with
this behind. It's so perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Just because we're comparing these, that kind
of highlights what I was saying before. I don't
think Ari Aster writes lines like that. I don't
know that there's stuff like that. You know who
else doesn't write lines like that, though, is
Paul Thomas Anderson. I think that Benicio del
Toro probably wrote that. You're right. I think
that Paul Thomas Anderson is a guy who loves
Altman and he's just letting these people do
stuff. And he, I don't know how he does it in
a way beyond what I've seen with Altman. Like
controls. So many moments. Maybe in editing or
something, but like it does not feel like a fucking
around thing ever. But the idea that Benicio
del Toro came up with all that and they just
went with it is like, oh, it was a fucking around
thing. And then you just made it look like it
wasn't because you actually pulled it all together.
Like, it's insane what this guy does, you know?
Well, and then when you really look at it, you
realize, like, wait, it kind of is just fucking
around. Like, how much time is spent on these
characters just, like, bumbling from one location
to the next and then having an argument on the
phone about passwords? and whatever, you know,
and like... Yeah, but if that's not the greatest
depiction of a millennial revolutionary, I don't
know. Yeah, it's almost like annoyingly obvious
and stuff. Like, I think if I was going to make
one critique of the movie, this is something
that, like, didn't sit with me as well the first
time. And the second time, I was more with it.
It was just like, I like all these kind of just
over -the -top clownish expressions. It's kind
of like, it's all on point. But... Some of that
did feel very, like... Like, what gender am I
supposed to call them? Yeah, like, some of that
just felt really, like, signally and forced in
a way that Eddington doesn't, because that's
just the whole movie. It's, like, part of the
landscape in Eddington is just, like, all the
obvious naming. Yeah, I think it goes throughout
Bob's character the whole movie, though. Him
calling everybody SA or bro or whatever. No,
sure, sure, sure. It stood out to me a little
bit more. Allyism in a pre -ally kind of paradigm.
You know what I mean? In the end, I like the
point it makes. I like that even the revolutionaries
are hung up on... code words and safe spaces
and just like all this kind of stupid bullshit
it's like how can you guys even be revolutionaries
anymore the point is they're not yeah what the
hell is this um it's not a real thing The only
thing that's a real thing is the, I mean, this
is like the hyper -normalization, the whole point
at the end of Adam Curtis' hyper -normalization
that he comes down on is like, oh, it's all collectivism
is the only, individualism doesn't work in a
democracy. The only thing that works is collectivism.
It's the idea of becoming a part of a demographic
group. And identifying with a movement, identifying
with something like that, you eliminate your
personal identity for the group identity sort
of thing. And that's what Lockjaw is doing. That's
what the French 75, like, and that's, that's
definitely what the Mexican immigrants are like.
These are all, these are all our group helping
us against the system things, you know. The Mexicans
are the only group that I feel like they have
less of a choice, like that just is their culture
and they're in hiding and like their life is
the result of like the political and legal and
economic situation of reality that they experience.
Whereas like, I don't know, Friends 75 feels
like their choices are a group that banded together
and chose to do all this stuff and locked all
as a choice and decides that he wants to pursue.
the Christmas Adventurers Club or whatever. I
don't know. I kind of just feel like the Mexican
immigrants are like... They're immigrants, so
they're in the midst of the choice that they're
making to leave one country and come to another
country. There's something about the whole sequence
that feels really homey and warm and just the
allyship between Bob and them and whatever. It
just feels really like... when Bob gets all excited
and yells Viva La Revolucion and stuff, there's
something just so heartwarming and endearing
about it. And then especially that he doesn't
get out of there and he gets caught, and then
Benicio Del Toro has to fucking break him out
again. And they get in the car and they take
a selfie and have a beer or whatever. I don't
know. I just feel like I haven't seen something
that endearing and cute and hopeful in a while.
I don't know. It was beautiful. It was beautiful
watching friends help friends, like, beat the
system a little bit, get away from the cops,
like, you know, just escape the grasp of the
law and get on the run, just nick of time or
whatever. I agree. I agree. But I do think it
is interesting that, like, this is a movie where
we've got the one revolutionary group, like,
the one underground society. And then we've also
just got like a whole nother underground revolutionary
group that's not connected to either of those
other two that just happens to pop in for a minute.
And it's like, oh, it's because this is the other
race that we haven't represented so far. Well,
then they've got one, too. Like, you know what
I mean? It's it kind of it just seems like, OK,
well, that's what it is. It's like there's the
blacks versus the whites and then there's the
Mexicans versus the whites. And there's the and
Bob is going in between all of them. And he's
like, except not the whites, I guess. But. I
don't know. There's something interesting to
me that you'd go with that idea. It does seem
that way. It does seem more motivated by racial
segregation. And that's a positive thing in some
cases. It doesn't feel positive with the whites,
obviously, but it does feel positive with the
Mexicans, right? And maybe that feels positive
for the French 75, but the French 75 is more
multiracial and it is just destructive because
all it's doing is just blowing stuff up, robbing
banks and freeing people at large. That is also
what privileged people would do. We don't really
know a lot about their backgrounds, but like
historically speaking. Most groups like that
come from the elite class. Most revolutionaries
come from the elite class. That's right. It's
like pretty, yeah, it's pretty, they're like,
you know, suburban kids. Yeah. They're exactly
the type of people like the girl in Eddington
with their mask falling off their face being
like, we're having this conversation on stolen
land and whatever. It's just that they then have
guns and. You know, blah, blah, blah. Man, land
acknowledgement stuff is real out here, man,
let me tell you. It's very weird. It's pretty
obnoxious. Yeah. Not because I want to deny genocide
and, like, things that happened, but, like, dude,
do you know how many, like, different landlords
have owned this area over the thousands of years
it's been here? Where do you stop with your land
recognition? My stepdad, like, made a... made
a joke about this once, but he's giving a land
acknowledgement and saying, I'd like to make
an acknowledgement to this land that we stand
on that belonged to the so -and -so people, and
then the so -and -so people before that. And
then the so -and -so people before that. Right,
right, right. And then the so -and -so people
before that. We took this land from the Apache
who raped and murdered the Iroquois who, you
know, pissed on the graves of the, you know,
whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you. It's like
the land acknowledgement is not an acknowledgement
of the reality of history. It's just an acknowledgement
of the, like, pain of certain people who are
alive right now. You're just bending the knee
to modern resistance libs. Yeah. Yeah, it's the
least you can do. The least you could do. Acknowledge.
Yeah, I guess we might be falling into a kind
of stray thoughts realm at this point, but one
of the things I noticed about one battle after
another from a structure point of view is its
subversiveness. Obviously, yeah, yeah. Again,
like Altman. I thought it was... He's just taking
it down and re -subverting it. Yeah. I thought
it was hard to predict what was going to happen
in the movie. Yeah. And it, like, did a lot of
setups that didn't pay off in the way that you
would have expected. Mm -hmm. Like, you said
the thing about the main character, how, like,
Bob kind of feels like the main character. But,
like... That he doesn't do anything for the whole
movie? He doesn't do anything. And a lot of people
have noticed this. I was watching this with Elise,
and at the very end, Willa is being chased by
the guy and gets out of the car and stuff. And
then she's like, you know, she's doing a pretty
fucking good job of handling this on her own
without daddy's help and stuff. I'm like, yeah.
I started tearing up and stuff. I was like, yeah,
that's because he raced her. That's because he
raised her, dude. He did a good job. He prepared
her for this and she's doing it. And that's incredible.
That's being a father. And it's working. He did
it. Literally the most important thing that he
did, it happened in time you didn't see. Yeah,
it happened outside the movie. But you do see
their interactions and him acknowledging when
he is in the wrong and not trying to be... You
see their interactions and that he's learned
and that he is a good father. And he did it.
That to me is such a... And he did it, yeah.
He makes it just in time exactly when she needs
him. Yeah. And she doesn't know who he is, too.
She's like, who are you? Because you're not my
dad. You're not like... Like, I don't, I don't
even like, are you my hand? Like what? And he's
just like, I'm your dad. I mean, she wasn't even,
she wasn't even entirely, she wasn't even entirely
convinced that anything your dad was saying about
the past was real, that there like was anybody
that would be looking for them or like, like
it all seemed like a fucking joke and she didn't
take him seriously. But who she is, like he,
he raised her and she was prepared. Yeah. And
sensei. Yes. Yeah. That's like, that's a part
of her sensei for sure. Big part of it. Yeah.
But it's actually, it's so good, dude. It's like,
it's such a, a catharsis out of left field. Not
this, not the catharsis you thought you were
going to experience, but like totally just, totally
just hits you with this. Oh yeah. Like this is
Willa. Like Willa is capable. She knows what
to do. She is smart. She is empathetic. She is
aware. This guy raised a good child. Realizing
that in the end there, that's the catharsis.
It's just like, oh my God, he did such a good
job. Oh my God, they prepared her for the fucking
world. Yeah, exactly. They actually put someone
out there who could do some good. I don't know.
But then that brings us to... To, I guess, the
other ending. Yeah, so... With the letter. I
guess we have to get back to the letter, yeah.
I mean, so we kind of talked about how we thought
it was a nothing burger. But is that by design?
Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think Bob wrote
the letter. Yeah. Or at the very least, it doesn't
matter. No, I think Bob wrote the letter. It
sounds like the type of thing Bob would have
written. There's no reason that, like, how would
she have gotten the letter to anyone in the Resistance
to get to Bob? He doesn't know whether or not
Profitia is alive. There's nothing in the movie
to let us know whether or not Profitia is alive
or that there's any hope of her coming back.
And Profitia has no interest in coming back.
She left that kid. She doesn't care about the
kid. this is a letter pretending that she cares
about a kid that she had no interest in ever
and i don't think it was just a postpartum thing
i think it's also the shame of it being someone
else's kid and whatever like there's a lot but
he's creating the fantasy that she has some regret
about that exactly maybe she does maybe she doesn't
but we don't see that but like that would explain
the banality of the letter because because he
knows nothing all he can do is like make her
express lazy regret Well, that and is written
by a guy who's stoned all the time for 40 years.
It's like, you know, it's not, he's just like,
it sounds, it's the banality of just like a guy
who's like a sweet, good guy, but like doesn't
have that much going on upstairs. Well, I don't
think being, I don't think being a stoner means
you have not a lot going on. No, I know. I know.
But he's, he's, he doesn't have a lot going on.
I don't think he had a lot going on to begin
with. No, he didn't. He's not a thinker. He was
doing it for the pussy. He can make bombs. And
I think that he says many times throughout the
movie, I've destroyed my mind with drugs for
20 years and whatnot. He is kind of past his
sort of, you know. And I think there's like,
I don't think that means that he's dumb. I think
that, you know, like Paul Thomas Anderson is
a guy that I'm sure did tons and tons of cocaine
for a long time. And I don't think he still is.
I'm sure at some point he had to get through
that probably during Punch Drunk Love. But it's,
you know. Hard to say exactly, but I think that
it's not just him saying, if you use drugs, then
your mind is destroyed forever. It's like, no,
obviously he's working at the height of his thing,
and he was working at the height of his thing
when he was on the drug, whatever. But I think
that part of the thing is like, yeah, no, this
is a guy living after the thing, and he's not
really fully... I mean, he's burned out. It's
a thing. He's a burned out guy. Yeah. I mean,
I relate. Hmm. I relate to the kind of self -hatred
he has. Yeah, totally. And just the combination
of having a lot of heart and caring about people,
but not really caring about yourself. Yeah. And
he made Willa a great person, but she's the one
parenting him at the beginning. Yeah. He's the
one who doesn't want to change. Yeah, it's true.
But he does make it, too. I do think that him
and Profitia's relationship, I think of as this...
mistake this weird like he's if you're attracted
to perfidia beverly hills then you are either
fetishizing her for something or you're attracted
to something evil like that's it you know lockjaw
is One of those two. And I think that Bob is
one of those two as well. I don't see their relationship,
their love as something that's pure and beautiful
and whatever. But I do see his love for Willa
as that. I think that is pure and beautiful.
That is a real thing. Oh, yeah. That thing that
he fosters through the, I mean, mostly through
the part of the film that we don't see. That
is something really valuable. And that makes
his character somebody who is better than Lockjaw.
Like otherwise, I don't think him just as a revolutionary
who's in love with Profitia is any better than
like the evil G -Man who's in love with Profitia.
The whole beginning of the movie, I see them
almost as mirrors and everybody's kind of doing
this for their love of black asses and fun and
violence and revolution and feeling sexy and
whatever. Well, another subversion is how the
main villain of the movie only interacts with
Bob. One time, near the beginning of the movie,
he's in a grocery store and he just comes up
to him and says, I like black women. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. You like black women? I love them. And
he looks really disturbed. Yeah. And then there's
not a scene where they come back together in
the end and fight or anything. He knows who Lockjaw
is. That's what I was going to like, continuing
about the subversions. It has so many moments
like that where it's like, Bob shows up, he's
got him in his sights in a sniper rifle, misses
the shot. Oh well, have to keep going. there's
so many things that happen twice, false starts.
I mean, him falling off the fucking roof and
just getting thrown in the junk tank and having
to get busted out again. So many things in this
movie can be described as superfluous, things
that don't go anywhere, but, like, oh, man, the
journey matters in this movie so much. Like,
there's so much about that for some reason. Totally.
And, yeah, that he doesn't show up in the nick
of time to save her. She has to save herself
and how locked up. doesn't die when he gets shot
in the face and gets in that bad car accident.
He dies pathetically in a fucking madman office.
Yeah, like Don Draper's corner office. No, but
it's not. It's not. It's like, where the fuck
is it? Is it in New Mexico? It seems like some
totally nowhere fucking town. It's not like a
New York skyscraper fucking office. It's like...
I don't know. But I have no idea what that office
is or what he'd be doing there or whatever. It's
such a weird, surreal thing. This felt like the
Ikea version of Don Draper's office, you know?
It felt like the very cheap, like... This is
the thing that was, like, promised to you all
this time, and it's not like a gold -plated office
or whatever. It feels like bullshit. I know,
I know. It makes it feel even more pathetic.
It's not like a big, beautiful desk that's like,
oh, fuck, look at that desk, like Don Draper's.
It's just a desk and, like, a chair. It feels
dead. There's no one there. It's, like, not a
thriving office or something. What even is this
place? This is your tomb. They just led you to
your tomb. But he's so happy with it. He's so
satisfied with it is the banality of his character.
That shows who he deserves. What do you get?
The way his face looks and stuff. Oh, my God,
man. One of the most pathetic things. But these
were both really interesting movies. Yeah, I
don't know. Do you have anything else you'd like
to say? I'd say that's that mattress, man. That's
that. That's that.