See, I believe that all the mysteries of the
universe, all the answers to life's questions
can be found in a Spielberg film. I've been afraid for
all of my life. Why doesn’t somebody just shoot
me in the head? Right up until the day I knew
my life was ending. You look bad. No, man. You
smell bad. I'm pretty fucking far from ok. Really, I
feel like I'm sharing a very- Look at my shit. I had an affair.- precious moment
with you. Are you threatening me, dick? You don't
approve. Fake. Well, too bad. Totally fake. Did
it seem fake when my best friend was bitten
in half in front of me, I found this cover story personally embarrassing
myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything but the little fishies. All
right. All right. Welcome to Everything But the
Little Fishies. Welcome. I'm Evan. And I'm Mike.
And today, we're going to be talking about Otaku
No Video, the two -part OVA by Gainax from 1991.
And we're going to be talking about their seminal
anime series, Evangelion. including the film,
The End of Evangelion. But not the reboots. Not
the reboots. The series was released in 95. End
of Evangelion was 97. And then because it was
such a success last time to bring wandering vagrant
Josh onto our show to talk about Akira, we decided
to bring him back for our discussion about another
seminal and important and influential anime work.
So welcome back, Josh. Thank you. Hi, everybody.
Sorry to make you watch anime again instead of
something that you have any connection to. Akira
was like the first anime film I'd ever seen.
And these are like, I don't know, now like the
sixth and seventh anime properties that I've
been engaged with. And yeah, fuck you guys. Are
you becoming an otaku? Are you becoming an anime
fan? I mean, like, technically, yes. But in spirit,
I couldn't be further away. God, I hate it. Oh,
for sure, man. Well, that actually makes you
an otaku. I know, I know. It's like, yeah. That's
what we're going to talk about if we want to
jump right into otaku no video. I mean, Mike,
do you want to set the scene for this one? I
think part of the thing was last time when we
were talking about Akira, I think that... kind
of some of the cultural context that we were
discussing sounded a little bit like out of left
field or whatever. Because it was completely
out of left field. But like, you know, parts
of it seemed like we're being very critical of
sort of the Japanese in general. And I think
that basically if you were a Japanese audience
watching like a Clockwork Orange, like in order
to understand a Clockwork Orange, you would have
to be pretty critical of the West. You know what
I mean? Like that is, Clockwork Orange is a Western
work. but it is attacking the Western world.
So I think that it's important to bring about
the context that these films exist in a paradigm,
an anime otaku paradigm, that does have its own
sort of cultural context that is criticizing
itself, as opposed to us as outsiders sort of
criticizing them. And I think that Otaku No Video
is a really great case in point. because at the
time there was the otaku killer thing happening
where basically this i forget his name but this
dude with weird long hands uh went out and killed
the last name was uh His last name was Miyazaki.
He was Miyazaki. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Miyazaki was going out, and he was raping and
killing and eating young girls. Little girls.
And he got caught, and they found anime. He was
called the little girl killer. Right. He was
called the little girl killer at first, and then
when they found anime in his room, they started
connecting the ideas of otaku culture, and they
started applying that to the killings. Yeah,
but the point is, at the time, the otaku was
becoming sort of... a feared archetype in japan
this sort of isolated perverted lonely guy in
his early 20s who watches a lot of cartoons and
you know can't talk to people and masturbates
a lot and kills children yep and i think that
otaku no video is a response to that i think
that the way it deals with it is brilliant you
know what i mean i think i think it's very cool
that it basically does attack otaku in a very
mean way. But underneath all of that, there is
sort of this love and glorification of the otaku.
Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's important to state
that originally this is the story of... Okada.
Okada and Takeda. Right? Takeda's the skinny
guy and Okada's the fat guy. Takeda was more
of a normal kid and then Okada started to sort
of introduce him to the perversions of the anime
world and then he stopped showering and started
watching a lot of it. And I think this celebration
of that and his choice to become the Oda King...
Important to note, they're two of the founding
members of Gainax. Right, yeah, I should have
mentioned. Takeda and Okada are the two founding
members. And... Okada's friends were, you know,
Anno and Takami Akai. Akai is the guy who did
all of the perverted girl games and stuff. So
basically, Okada had this group of weird anime
nerd friends and they invited in Takeda and he
kind of became one of them. And they were the
ones who launched this company. And it was launched
through like these garage kits and these girl
games. And a lot of the work they did animation
wise was like... They did not have the rights
to the properties and stuff. There's a lot of
doujinshi stuff, which is basically like independent
anime and manga. A lot of it's porn based, but
they use pre -existing characters and put them
in porny or not porny situations. Those guys
are the guys that then created Gainax. And this
is just, I think, a really great sort of pseudo
documentary that sort of encapsulates all of
that. Yeah, I mean... I think if people are interested
in the history of Gainax, there's an incredible
YouTube series that goes over the whole thing.
I forgot what the creator's name is. I'm so sorry.
It's like TJ something. But he did the work.
laid out the whole history of Gainax. Well, I
think that's the thing that's interesting about
Otaku no Video is that you don't really need
all of those specific historical points to get
the whole story. Otaku no Video combines these
characters, so Anno is a couple of the friends,
but you get the vibe of exactly what happened.
You get the vibe, but Otaku no Video is by no
means like a documentary. No, right, exactly.
It's not really like... But at the same time,
what actually happens is almost identical. Especially
in Parkada and Takeda, we're just at a convention
talking to each other for so many hours that
a crowd gathered around them and they ended up
talking until the morning. Just basically talking
in line outside of a convention or whatever.
And people just thought they were so funny that
some of the people who organized the con like
came and they gave them a night the next night
to go on stage and just do the same thing. Just
bullshit, talk about anime, like basically as
a like stand up routine. And people love that.
And that's kind of like that's where all of this
sort of comes out of is this sort of critical
and like fan based sort of culture stuff, which
to me feels very similar to like the French New
Wave or something. There's a critique of the
pre -existing sort of paradigm. built into the
work that they create. And I think that's like,
Godard is super, super important if you're going
to think about Hideaki Anno's work. as well absolutely
and yeah i think it's important to underline
the point that gynex and before they were gynex
they were daikon film or whatever that like when
we talk about the origins of gynex we really
are talking about a group of friends who were
like actually otaku and actually passionate about
the things that they were making and passionate
about creating a community for those people And
starting a movement in which this thing they
love so much would actually become mainstream.
And that's part of what Otaku No Video is as
well, is not only the story of Gainax and their
beginnings, but the fantasy, the fantasization
of what they could become. Right. And how they
would change the world, so to speak, and stuff
like that. And at the same time, I think there's
a built -in post -modernism to it. that that
the rise of this anime culture is tied to a living
completely in the realm of fantasy um so the
end where they win they're just sitting on the
battleship yamato and they're all 18 again and
they're flying in a spaceship that came out of
their theme park like But they do have a giant
theme park now. A lot of these things actually
did come to happen. There is a full -size Gundam
in, I don't know where it is, but in Japan. They
do this stuff. This culture actually did take
off to a level that is the cartoonish level.
That's the thing about this movie. I think that
a lot of the things that it's doing ironically
don't even feel that ironic anymore because that's
just kind of the way that it is. So like when
they're putting this anime on a pedestal, like
they're doing it in a tongue in cheek way that
they also do love it, but they're, you know,
they know it's kind of silly. You almost don't
get that tongue in cheekness now. You know what
I mean? Because that is like. the number three
export in japan or something like it's it's it's
like a huge amount of their economy is anime
a huge amount of their cultural export a huge
amount of like what they define themselves as
and for the otaku and the hikigomori whatever
a huge part of the actual world that they live
in this post -modern world where the images are
more important than the reality itself You know
what this reminded me a little bit of, actually,
which we just talked about, is Revenge of the
Nerds. Yeah, totally. It kind of feels like a
version of Revenge of the Nerds where the people
making it are actually aware of what they are.
Yes. Exactly. And they're self -critical. And
they're self -critical as opposed to Revenge
of the Nerds where it's made by fucking evil
nerds who are not self -critical. Where if Anno
was making Revenge of the Nerds, yeah, he would
still rape that girl, but he would feel bad about
it afterwards. He's the lowest of the low if
he does that. You think it's lower to admit?
I'm sorry. I was just being Shinji at the beginning
of End of Evangelion. Yes, yes. I'm sorry. I'm
sorry. I don't know. I think the only thing I
can really add here is as someone who is completely
outside of that culture, consumptively even,
it's just not something I engage with. The people
that I do engage with, you guys accept it, obviously.
the people that I do engage with who are a part
of that culture are not necessarily inward looking
folks. Like there are people who are like, dude,
you have to watch one piece and like, don't worry
about the first 200 episodes. Like there is a
total and complete lack of self -awareness that
is, that's the thing. Like as a cultural commodity,
I don't think it's really become. American thing
but as a commercial commodity it's fucking humongous
like yeah it's a financial export yeah it's you
know Japan's number three export or whatever
but as like something in this country to be consumed
by the you know lumpenproletariat it's still
very much stigmatized it is something that like
any I'll say professional adult who is not like
a culturista looks at anime as Not just shit
for kids, but like weirdly pornographic shit
for kids. Something to be derided. Something
to be kind of, I don't know, put back in its
box. Yeah, and I don't think that Anno disagrees.
And I also don't think Miyazaki disagrees. Totally.
I mean, I think that a lot of the guys who make
this anime... They are aware of this. And, I
mean, Miyazaki hates anime fans. Absolutely.
The only one that he likes is Anno. He hates
his son, but Anno, he loves him. I say all this
to say that I think that the tongue -in -cheek
nature is preserved for an audience like me,
where it's like that self -critical thing hits
so much harder when me, as someone who is not
necessarily inherently opposed to this type of
content, but that doesn't see the inherent value
to it, I look at it and I go like, yeah, if you
make this shit and if you love only this shit,
you should hate yourself. American audiences
of otaku culture are not there yet. They don't
have that self -critical lens. So like otaku
no video, I feel like is something that I want
to hand to like my non -binary niece to be like,
stop, stop it. Fucking look at this. Look at
yourself and have a clarifying sense of self
-hatred. So I think this is a really interesting
point to dig into and jump off of because I think
this actually kind of is the main conversation
to be had about Anno's work and what Otaku No
Video is saying and Otaku culture in general.
Like you said, a lot of people just aren't self
-aware. They're like these insane, rabid fans
of things and they don't see themselves as these
sort of obsessive, weird individuals. And I think
that's probably why I think I'm going to start
by saying I think a lot of the negativity and
criticism about things like the end of Evangelion,
the movie, but also the end of the show, like
the last two episodes, I think the idea that
that stuff is super unpopular with the fans is
probably sort of overblown. But you can imagine
that there is a wide group of anime fans who
got certain things out of these animes. but then
didn't know how to process the things that were
deeper, scarier, ickier, made them look inward.
I think a good example of this shift in Otaku
No Video is that I think the first half of Otaku
No Video is very, very humanizing to the otaku.
I think it's really fun to watch that group get
together. It's really interesting to watch the
main characters shift from seeing these guys
as a bunch of scary weirdos to seeing them as
just normal human beings. And the fact that all
these weird interests they have are actually
bringing them all together into some kind of
community. And then just the success story of
coming together as friends. being like, we're
going to do these garage kits and we're going
to whatever it is and sort of like succeeding.
It's like punk rock in a way, the sort of like
success of something really small and rough around
the edges and DIY that then becomes really like
popular. And it's such an incredible success.
But I think the second half, which is probably
not people's favorite half. I think that's the
side that gets a little bit weirder. Right. Yeah,
yeah. It starts to get into the actual corporate
infrastructure and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. The
way all these otaku seem to sort of slide effortlessly
into a corporate structure where their interests
are in expanding and creating more profit is
really interesting. And the fact that it's played
so straight is interesting as well. But there's
just something so icky about the entire part
of the story where he's like, let's build factories
in China for cheap labor. and all this kind of
stuff. But he knows that. Let's use a cheaper
kind of... That's totally like... It's completely
self -critical. So there's the thing where the
revolution and the little guys become the establishment
and whatever. Which is what happened. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. It becomes a little more complicated because,
like, you know, the main character does get edged
out of the company. And then eventually his friend
who he started the company with gets edged out
as well. And then they, like, find each other
again and start another company that also does
really well and, like, yada, yada, yada. This
is what happens with general products and Gainax
and stuff. Like, there's all of these, like,
behind -the -scenes things. Like, a lot of these
happened in... In other ways, like not exactly
the way it happened in the show, obviously. But
I just think that's interesting that in 91 and
in Otaku no Video, like Otaku no Video actually
does kind of describe the future of Gainax, even
though it hasn't happened yet. Right, exactly.
It almost describes like... the creation of Studio
Kara and, like, Anno and, like, how many, like,
of the original creators left Gainax and went
off and did their own things. Yeah, this has
happened over and over at Gainax and stuff. And,
yeah, I'm pretty sure Akata stole a bunch of
money at some point, too. It wasn't Akata. But,
yeah, two people got arrested for tax evasion
because the accountant was, like, hiding Evangelion
profits or something like that. So they had that
scandal. And then later on there was a sexual
abuse scandal. Isn't there always? Yeah, with
another one of the founders. So, like, I mean,
even before Evangelion, like, most of the original
founders had left Gainax already. Even Anno wasn't
really a part of Gainax at that point. He came
back to make Evangelion. And then I think he
did another project. He did his and her circumstances
after Evangelion. But then after that, he pretty
much, like, left. Yeah, and his and her circumstances
also, like, he left halfway through, basically.
I mean, pretty much every single Anno show, he
has like a mental breakdown halfway through and
the budget thins out and there's a bunch of problems
and whatever. I think, I mean, if you want to
get into this, I think part of the reason that
is is because Anno does not have these shows
in his head when he starts. Yeah. This is a guy,
this is not a guy who knew what was going to
happen at the end of Evangelion and started writing
at the beginning. This is a guy who's like, okay,
so here's what happens in a giant robot show.
There's a kid, there's a robot, and there's a,
okay, there's a dad. He's in charge of the thing.
And there's a, there's got to be a hot. girl
there's got to be like that's that's what he's
doing yeah he's working with archetypes and yeah
and writing as he goes but it's not concerned
as much with this sort of plot stuff as much
as it is with the archetypes no yeah honestly
the american show it reminds me the most of is
lost that like that's a bummer like a curd i
don't know you like lost all right I have very
complicated feelings about Lost. But I realized
this time that Lost is essentially Evangelion
but with just so many more filler episodes. Because
Evangelion is 26 episodes and Lost is like hundreds
or whatever. But the same kind of spirit of writing
as you go and a lot of the same kind of just
like we're working with archetypes sort of thing.
One of the big differences for me is that I think
that Lost was not writing about the art. There's
not the same self -critical eye to look at Jack
Shepard as like, I don't know, as an archetype.
He's a cultural archetype. He's not a human archetype
like Shinji is. It's also just like it's not
a genre thing really as much. Sure, it's dealing
with TV storytelling and whatever, but like...
Evangelion is working very much in a very specific
genre and tweaking those archetypes. Evangelion
is almost the same show as Gundam from 79. It's
all tropes. It's dealing with established tropes.
This guy who is not writing to a conclusion that
he has instead is just like dealing with these
tropes and moving them around on like a chessboard
or something. Well, the difference is that like
Lost is not an auteur piece. Anno is like using
the show to work through his stuff. Exactly.
And, you know, that's not what's going on with
Lost or most American TV shows from that time.
You know, there's not a lot of like examples
of auteur TV before like the... Sopranos. Before
the Sopranos, basically, yeah. Yeah, I mean,
I guess something like Lost is using archetypes,
something like Evangelion ends up examining them
and criticizing them. Exactly. I mean, the title
of the show is Neon Genesis Evangelion. It's
the new first book of the gospel. It's trying
to do kind of what Scorsese is trying to do in
The Last Temptation of Christ. Where it's using
Christian archetypes to, you know, examine Christianity
and turning them on their head in certain ways.
And that's why I mean, the lost thing. But like,
even so, like, I think I think it's dealing with
specific archetypes in a specific genre. And
it's. I don't know. It's like it's like if you
know the notes that you have to hit to play this
song and then you go off on a little like it's
jazz. Like, you know what I mean? You have to
stay within these certain boundaries of harmony
and harmonization and whatever. But outside of
that, you can kind of do whatever you feel like
in that episode to talk about whatever you're
feeling right then. And I think by the end of
the show, he doesn't even give a fuck about harmonies
anymore. It kind of becomes like Miles Davis
or something where it's just kind of all fucking
over the place and just like, here's a wah. That's
what it feels like to me. Much more than it feels
like, you know, a constructed, like a Spielberg
film or a Kubrick film or something. Well, it
feels a lot more like a Godard. I mean, I think
I saw, I think I might have even seen Evangelion
before watching a lot of Godard movies, but then
when you watch Godard and then go back to Evangelion,
it's like, this is so Godard. It's so postmodern
and deconstructionist where like text is showing
up on the screen and it's like meta and making
you aware of being like an active participant
in the storytelling or whatever. Right, right.
Because it's talking about storytelling. Yeah,
it's talking about you as a viewer. It's not
trying to seduce you. It's trying to make you
aware, at least in the end. And I think that's
what could be credited to any of the disappointment
that fans might have had about the last two episodes
or whatever, is that there were a lot of people
who were watching it in the way that you would
watch Lost, where you're like, I want to see
how all these loose threads tie together. I want
to see where the plot goes and what happens here.
What's the story? But then just gets rid of all
that. And it just sheds the pretense entirely
of like, plot and world building to just be like
this is just about an internal monologue and
this like the shit that these characters are
going through and just yeah I never got to the
end of Lost so I don't really know But the impression
that I've gotten was that they also dropped it,
but basically because they didn't really have
anywhere to go or anything to say, so they just
kind of were like, it was all a dream, or you
were all dead all along, or it was something
like that, right? That's not how Lost is. That's
not how it is? No. I get so sick of people saying
that. It's not either of those things, and I'm
sorry I brought up Lost. Well, how does Lost...
You haven't seen it. I don't know. I think the
point is that, like, Evangelion... when it when
it gets to that point like it completely loses
momentum at a completely weird time that's like
almost totally arbitrary i mean it makes sense
structurally and emotionally and whatnot but
like Shinji kills Kwaru and then you never see
anybody else in reality ever again. It's just
like the story is over and there is no conclusion
whatsoever. You see a little bit like in the
last two episodes, they basically do just explain
to you what happens and then they expand on that
in the end of Evangelion and stuff. But like
you see a shot of Misato. dead on the ground
she's been shot by a bullet like um and you see
reets go like face down in the water and yeah
and you basically hear gendo say like the human
instrumentality project is the merging of all
souls and there's whatever like they and they
even say like because we don't have that much
time we'll just say we'll just explain what happened
the third impact happened the instrumentality
project began yada yada you know it's like yeah
it like Tells you what happens. But it's that
scene in an American movie where he's like, I've
never seen a scene where they just cut to black
and on the screen it says, we didn't have money,
so imagine that this happened. I've never seen
that in a fucking movie. Like, you can't do that.
It's like, I don't know, just was like, no, we
can do that. Let's just do that. It's possible
it's not even a money issue. They could have
maybe done something. But that's what Anno chose
to do. No, sure. I mean, there's several issues
happening, which we can get into. There's them
running out of money halfway through the show.
And then there's also the idea that there was
a different ending originally that had to be
changed because of the Om Shinrikyo subway gas
attack right before the ending of the series
happened. So theoretically, the end of the series
had some... you know mass violence thing happening
where everybody was turning into orange goo and
dying and throughout tokyo and whatever and that
that theoretically had subways involved or something
or just was too close and just similar to the
post 9 -11 era of like we don't end a movie with
having a plane crash into a building like even
if it's not the same build like you know what
i mean so exactly there is that But then there's
also the idea of what Aum Shinrikyo actually
was and kind of its connection to the whole series.
And like, I mean, I just watched the, they just
came out with an Aum Shinrikyo documentary on
HBO or Netflix or some shit. And it was not very
good. It kind of just talked about Aum Shinrikyo
as if it was any cult. It was the same as watching
a, you know, a thing on, I don't know, it was
just like a generalized cult. Like, oh, there
was a guy and then he got more and more powerful
and then he started taking over. and started
doing bad stuff, and then he started getting
weapons, and then he started, you know, and then
they did an attack. But I think that the thing
that's most interesting about Anno Shinrikyo
is that it was, like, very much a pop culture
-based cult, that, like, they used a lot of anime
in their messaging, but they also, like, used
anime archetypes, the way that Anno uses them
to sort of try and create the new... first book
of the gospel. They're trying to use these archetypes
from things like Gundam. I mean, specifically
the guy who created Gundam talked about Shinrikyo
taking those ideas and using that sort of black
and white morality to apply to reality and blah
blah blah. Which is interesting because Gundam...
like the complete opposite like the Gundam is
all about there are no bad guys the other side
is totally humanized in every episode all the
episodes just end with like you meet a good person
and then they die and then everybody's sad and
then they like they but they get killed by the
other people who you also like it's all it's
it's very morally great but the point is Om Shinrikyo
was specifically trying to do the same thing
that Anno was trying to do, of taking these archetypes
and applying them to a new conspiracy theorist
reality that is connected to Christian symbolism
and evil Jews and all of those sorts of cultural
archetypes that are, you know, important in Japan.
Like, and Anno also was interested in, like,
but Asahara was, the guy who created the cult,
Asahara, he, like, was becoming a, like, big
cultural figure. Like, he, there's, like, footage
of him in the documentary on, what's his name?
Who's the fucking teacher in Battle Royale? Holy
shit, it's been so long since I've seen Battle
Royale. It's Takeshi Kitano. Yeah, Takeshi Kitano.
It's Takeshi Kitano, and he's on Takeshi Kitano's
TV show talking about Aum Shinrikyo. So it's
being accepted as a force in Japan, Aum Shinrikyo.
And it's cultural sort of... footprint is getting
bigger and bigger and by the end of Evangelion
like Anno is very interested in this and they're
interested in each other like they're both doing
the same thing and then Om Shinrikyo ends with
this sort of big violence and then the show was
also supposed to end with this big violence and
Anno is like apparently flirting with this cult
and whatnot I don't know how much connection
he had to Asahara but there's I mean, he hasn't
really talked so much about this connection,
but apparently there was a connection and that
that has to do with why the ending was changed.
And you see in the ending that that's happening
simultaneous with like a total mental breakdown,
total depression, and a total examination of
his own ideas, right? Where he's looking at these
archetypes that he's been dealing with and being
like, why am I dealing with these this way? Like,
why are we doing this? You know what I mean?
I think that the end of the show has a lot to
do with him dealing with his support of that
ideology that led to that violence, basically.
Yeah, I haven't heard that particular angle.
Because, like, I definitely think it's easy enough
to describe the last two episodes of Evangelion
and even maybe the whole show is, like, basically
a therapy session. And, like, yeah, Anno's just
no stranger to... getting severely depressed
while working on a television show i think like
the show he made before evangelion was called
like nadia the secret of blue water and um that's
a show that like he left at some point and came
back and did the last couple episodes but that
project destroyed him and definitely like That's
kind of the energy he was bringing into Evangelion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, there's
an interview with Hiroki Izuma talking about
working with Hideaki Anno. He's a cultural critic
in Japan and involved in anime and whatnot. And
he describes Anno's flirtation with Aum Shinrikyo
and sort of how his dealing with those archetypes
was similar to how... Asahara was dealing with
his archetypes in Ohm and that basically it was
because of that connection that he couldn't do
the end anymore and that to me basically gives
a whole new sort of spin on the end. I mean,
it's kind of like if you were a super, you know,
anti -American vocal person talking about, like,
making a movie where the whole thing is about
how you need to, you know, blow up the World
Trade Center. You know what I mean? It's like,
fuck trade, fuck the, like, fuck all these, like,
evil people in charge, like, blow up the World
Trade Center, and then, like, it happens, and
you're like, fuck. All right, well... why am
i into blowing up like now that i've seen this
happen this doesn't seem cool anymore like you
know what i mean like maybe there's something
wrong with me like maybe there's something wrong
with all of us who thought that this was cool
like we've all been watching this show and we've
all been down for that but now why are we here
like why did this we should just get somebody
into the government who will like completely
destroy it and break it down that'd be super
cool right exactly exactly yeah and then it happens
Maybe we shouldn't break the government. Like,
maybe we do sort of need it. Yeah, I mean, I
think this is a lot of what Brad Bird's talking
about in Incredibles 2. We'll start to talk about
that in the future. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah.
We're all over the place right now, though. Let's
go back to a talk in a video, man, real quick.
And just, like, Josh, what did you think of a
talk in a video? like your impressions we've
kind of just been like at the heart of it what
I love it's what I love of what I've taken away
from all of Anna's work is like a that lacerating
self -criticism just like we talked about it
earlier but The fact that most of the people
in fan culture worldwide, the main thing is like,
you know, I say this too fucking much, like the
most harmful words in the world are like, I don't
know why, I just like it. And like, Anno is the
complete opposite of that. And like, when he's
examining his characters in that mode, in that
mode of like, let me talk to you about like fucking...
char the red comet and then everyone is sitting
there listening to it like yeah we know exactly
what you're talking about and this is of equal
importance to all of us like that you are at
a kind of dissonance with the rest of the world
that like that isn't that's a self -isolating
thing i you know i find that tremendously interesting
and i think like i don't know the thing that
otaku no video does best is and and you know
evangelion does it too where it's like Every
time I recognize a deficiency in myself, there's
this impulse to hide it. There's this impulse
to say, like, yeah, but since I know about it,
it's actually not a problem. And then the progress
is immediately undone by, like, the base knowledge
that you have that you are, like, a recursive
person who will go back to comfort again. I don't
know. I think that fucking rules. And you were
talking about it earlier, Evan. The strength
of the dream at the heart of it is just like,
yeah, like, we're getting bigger and these garage
kits are doing so well, but they need to be handmade,
so let's have slaves make them. Like, I think
that's a tremendously funny thing to just elide.
You know, like, well, it's a... It's kind of
a necessary evil. And, like, to get a little
meta about it, like, Anno does it again when
he's working on the Wind Rises, you know, with
our boy Miyazaki. Like, the thing that we need
to perpetuate the success of the Enterprise is
ultimately, like, the unwilling hands of the
market. I don't know. I think that's so fucking
cool. And, I mean, like, it's one of the... I
don't even know if you would call it a hidden
theme of Evangelion, but, like, what the people
with control, Gendo, was it Fiyutsuki? Yeah.
And basically all of Scylla, like, they exist
to create a new kind of unwilling race of otaku.
Like, they're creating people in their own image
to perpetuate ends that they completely don't
understand. And that is, you know, necessarily...
analogous to slave labor. It's just like, but
when it's your kid, when it's someone who never
thought they had a choice in the first place,
they're not going to think about it. It's not
going to be top of mind. Like, it's going to
be Shinji, like, laying waste to ten angels and
then being like, wait, why am I doing this? Wait,
angels are good guys in Viper, right? And I think,
like, the interesting thing about Otaku No Video
is that you, you know, especially in the, like,
get to know an otaku segment, it's like, You
brought it up also earlier, Evan, like you progressively
get darker and darker until you get to like this
guy who doesn't even want to be on camera, whether
it's because of shame or because it hurts his
like black market collecting business or whatever.
Like once you dive as deep as possible into the
thing, it becomes atomized to a degree that is
unbelievable. That's why I think like the best
joke in the whole thing is. And then we'll create
a theme park where all of the otaku from around
the world will get together. And it's like, you
know what otaku don't do? They don't get together.
I love otaku. I think it rules. I think what's
really interesting about fan culture pre -internet...
is that otaku did have to like come together
right right necessary to record off the tv and
get somebody's vhs and like yeah they had to
have a network and they had to have like community
and all that kind of stuff to like which is why
guy next could exist but i i do want to propose
that it's like it's in name only it's a veneer
it's kind of why i'm i think that The corporate
overthrow. It's like parallel play. Like when
you go into that room, they're all doing their
own things, but they're together in the same
space. And I think it's why like, I don't know
why I'm fucking blanking on the lead character's
name, but like when he gets voted off the board,
it's like, wait, we all did this together. And
it's like, yeah, but that wasn't really important.
That was a mean to the end for more content.
And at the moment it looked like. You weren't
necessarily going to herald it. There were going
to be better people to herald in new content.
So we went with that. And it's like, so then
the community becomes totally negligible. It's
totally informed by capitalism. Yes. Yeah. But
I also think, I also think the ideologies of
those lead to a Hikikomori syndrome. Like, you
know what I mean? This is like. It's the engagement
with this totally false reality. And then, I
mean, one of the things we haven't gotten into
is the idea of the moe and the attraction to
the anime characters thing. Oh, I think we're
getting there. There's a really good book called
Beautiful Fighting Girl by Hiroki Izuma that
discusses basically the archetype of this sort
of hermaphroditic female with male attributes
thing that is this pornographic icon that comes
from anime and that often they're underage girls
that are super powered in some sort of way but
then there's also like in the concept of moe
there's like the more helpless character is the
more moe they are and like the more retarded
they are like there's all of these like weird
cuteness is involved with it and there's there
is a weird creepiness to the things that are
considered moe The Lali Khan archetype is a Moe
thing and whatnot. And I think that one of the
first characters that started this... I don't
know, the concept of Moe, like, many of these
early anime fans fell in love with Nausicaa,
from Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. But
Miyazaki himself also, like, fell in love with
some character on TV when he was a kid and, like,
finds that to be, like, his original trauma that
he's dealing with for his whole life. So there
is this concept of, like, falling in love with
and, like, really truly connecting to a character
is this Moe. thing where it is like it is your
waifu it is this thing that is you you are discarding
your reality and you are living in a world where
that is your girlfriend this cartoon and it doesn't
need to go that far it could just be that these
things in this show are important like you know
what i mean there's a certain an embrace of this
postmodern, like the image is more important
than the reality thing that does lead to an isolation
and sort of a turning inwards in oneself sort
of thing and appealing more and more to one's
own perversions and not connecting to others
and that sort of thing. I think the most like
extreme example of that in a talk in a video
are the interview segments. Yeah. The portrait
of an Otaku segment. Yeah. Yeah. They're all
staged. I mean, you know that for maybe the one
with the American. But anyway, I was just trying
to say the most extreme example is like Anno
is playing the character who is playing like
the porn game or whatever and just being like...
He's the one who's... I thought he was the one
who had the glasses on who said, yeah, I've made
these glasses because they kind of get rid of
the blur. Oh, maybe that's him. I can't tell
because you can't see either of their faces,
but I thought I read he was the one playing the
game. I thought he was the one who was just jerking
off the whole time. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah,
maybe that was him. I don't know. But the point
is that most of those people are Gainax. Yeah,
and they're in on the joke. Founders and individuals,
yeah. And those are the segments that really
do. That's what's really interesting about a
Takenu video. One of the many things is that
you have this whole two -part anime narrative
that's like this. the sort of... Glorification.
Glorification or whatever it is. And then you
have these really sort of like grounded, strangely
sad retrospective things of like... Because like
most of those characters are dudes who like used
to be otaku and are like reflecting on it. Or
like... Or no, they're pretending. They're all
pretending that they used to be otaku. But also
like this is another thing that like I think
that at the time a lot of these things would
play as more like over the top. and parodic where
it's like the guy wearing the glasses being like
it gets rid of the mosaic a little bit so i've
got this like digital thing that i created to
get rid of the mosaic so i can jerk off better
that felt like a totally ridiculous goofy thing
whereas now it's kind of like no that's just
a society that's just like that's like yeah that's
just kind of a normal and it's sad that that's
real a lot and like all of those things are kind
of they're understated enough that they're they're
like tongue -in -cheek and they're like they're
played straight but like I think that they're
hilariously vicious, but you don't even feel
vicious now because that's just what anime fans
actually are now. Yeah, yeah. It's like you said,
they're in on the joke, but also the joke is
on them, and that's why it works. The only thing
I have to ask is, what's up with all the little
factoids in Otaku No Video? They're the best,
right? What's that about? They're totally random.
And they're artificial, right? They're as fake
as the interviews themselves. Yeah, yeah. I mean,
same with all of the infographics they have.
They're great. They're the best, because there's
12 participants. I've been seeing infographics
like, there's 12 participants, and six of them
said this, and four of them said this. So you
can see, this is how otaku are. It's family feud.
We asked 100 people on the street if they'd ever
heard of wife feud. But it's not. It's actually
like 20 people. It's so few people. do you watch
anime and like none of the statistics are that
outlandish like you know I mean it's all very
understated comedy I think because like that
is only funny because it's like it's not because
it's like we're saying that all of them do this
or that none of them it's just like it's just
like we asked 12 people and this is to get back
to this whole thing about the fans I think like
What you were saying, Josh, earlier about the
sort of fragility of them or the lack of self
-awareness, I think whenever you make a work
that is poking at that a little bit, that's like
breaking their AT field, that makes them uncomfortable.
Absolutely. And I think that's exactly why the
last two episodes of Evangelion... are so uncomfortable.
Because even if you don't fully understand it,
something is poking through your AT field. Something
is fucking becoming internalized that is just
as hard for the average person to deal with as
it is Shinji. Because I don't really think the
lesson of the last two episodes of Evangelion
are just for otaku. I think it's particularly
important for those kinds of people. But look
at the world we're living in. People are so hyper
-specialized, so isolated. Evangelion has never
been more relevant as a message to give people.
Everyone's in therapy. It's a kind of therapy
that allows you to make peace with your existence
and your connections with others and your relationship
to pain and all this kind of stuff. And Otaku,
who is finding simple, easy solace in their interests
so they can avoid the pain, so they can avoid
the hedgehog's dilemma of being close to others,
they're the kind of person who needs to hear
this message. Yeah, they're really they're really
a canary in the coal mine of the postmodern culture,
right, where they're the first people who are
embracing the image over the reality. And so
they're the first people to have this problem
of isolation. But now, I mean, in the post -COVID
world, we all have this problem of isolation.
All are living in a world where what's happening
on social media is actually a real reality that
we have to deal with every day as opposed to
like what we deal with going to and from the
grocery store and work and what Trump is saying
and what's happening. in the middle east and
what's what's happening on netflix and what's
happening on hulu these are all equal like you
know and these are all realities that we live
in even though we're just stuck in our houses
and whatever so we're choosing which reality
to live in because the only real reality is the
one where we're alone in a room and that's what
shinji's going through that's what the otaku
is going through that's what the hikikomori go
through so what do you think piloting the eva
means like shinji doesn't really come off as
an otaku. He actually has no interests. He's
actually just kind of like a empty husk of a
person. And I think based on how you interpret
the entire story of Evangelion and the ending
and stuff, you can see him piloting the Eva as
like... A community of people trying to pull
him in, just like, you know, talking to a video.
Like, here's something you can be interested
in. Here's something worth doing. Here's something
that will make others like you and make you connect
to others. But it's also an easy thing for him,
right? Like, he shows up in town to see his dad.
A hot lady shows up and is like, hey. We have
this thing for you. It's quite literally like
a life on rails. You'll be stuck in this thing
that is an avatar for a real person that is in
a way, you know, ultimately kind of human itself.
It is a biological life form. You sit inside
of it, you ride the rails upwards, and your dad
tells you what to do every day. And, like, if
your dad says, like, we're putting in the dummy
plug, we don't need you today, that day you do
nothing but think about yourself. And it's, I
don't know, I found, yeah, like, it is the path
of least resistance. And I think it's, like,
set up that way from the jump when it's, like,
this giant pipe is falling from the ceiling and,
like. Shinji's fear literally raises the hand
of the Eva so that, like, he doesn't have to
do anything. His feelings do all of the heavy
lifting. I don't know that it's his feelings
there. I think that's the Eva's feelings. That's
mommy. Yeah. I think that's mommy. Well, yeah.
I mean, maybe that even accidentally proves the
point further, right? That, like, you are kept
in this, you know, the umbilical cord hasn't
been cut. Right. Yeah, you're always protected
and you're always told what to do. And you never,
ever have to think about, like, the ramifications
of it. Well, there's an easy problem to solve
in front of me. I have to take care of this thing.
I've been told it's bad, and my dad told me,
so I believe that it's bad. Also, so did, yeah,
so did my boss mom, Kitsuragi, you know. Yeah.
But also his real mom. I mean, that's the big
reveal in the end, like, is that, you know, they're
making, like, they made the... The Magi? Yeah,
the Magi. Just like they made the Magi out of
Ritsuko's mom, they made Unit 1 and Unit 0, theoretically,
out of Shinji's mom. And Rei. Everything is Shinji's
mom. Well, Unit 2 is Asuka's mom. Yeah, Unit
2 is Asuka's mom. But there's only one good mother,
you guys. There's only one good one. The Magi
fouls Ritsuko. the central trauma of Asuka's
whole life is just, like, I came home to tell
my mom about my greatest victory when I was,
like, six, and, like, the central image in my
memory forever is now her hanging body. It's
interesting that this happened at the same time.
You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. She's
chosen for the Eva program, and then her mom
commits suicide the same day. It's almost as
if the Seilei, or... What's the place above Seilei?
the marduk institute yeah marduk institute exactly
it's the marduk institute yeah all that stuff
i mean i think i think part of the great thing
of watching evangelion is that for the entire
beginning of the show you're given all of these
explanations of like what happened and all of
them are wrong like the stuff that happened at
the polar ice caps with the was it a meteor that
they claim and stuff then secondly impact yeah
i mean yeah second impact but They claim that
it was a meteor in the first place in the voiceover
that the teacher is talking about in the school.
Like, all of the setup of this world is lying.
They also tell you that... Lilith is Adam, and
then the episode before they showed you the real
Adam that isn't. There's all these ridiculous...
Yeah, there's that moment where Misato turns
around to Commander Ikari, and she's like, but
won't the contact of the Eva and Adam start the
third impact? And then he doesn't say anything
to her. She's like, fuck, I didn't know. She's
just like, fuck, that was a lie too. She's like
a fucking fool. Was that what her boy told her,
Kaji? Or was that something she thought she could
get out on her own? Kaji tells her that that's
Adam, but it's Lilith. Right, right. And is that
part of Kaji's plan or is it not? And does that
matter? I think that a lot of these things, like
what was the Marduk Institute and how many moms
does Shinji have and all these things are like,
a lot of it I do think is written by a guy who
didn't know where he was going. I think Kaji's
for Kaji. I think Kaji is just for Kaji. He's
also for the CIA, right? Or is he, no, he's for
Sailor. He works for Saleh and he works for Nerve.
He works with both of them. He's just kind of
the sleeper agent. But he just wants to know
what's happening. He just wants to know what's
happening, yeah. And I don't think he's ever
misleading Misato. He truly loves her, and I
think he's always telling her what he knows,
and not everything he knows is correct. He's
not always telling her what he knows, but by
the end, yeah. And yeah, as much as he does love
her, he's playing her. He's playing her for his
own ends. The dudes with power in this show,
that's what they do. Kaji and Ikari are two sides
of the same coin. They're the duality of man.
They're the guy who gives you sweet love and
the guy who gives you tough love. And ultimately,
they're both working for themselves or an ideology
that's very, very shallow. It's not completely
carnal, but for Ikari, he's looking at... He's
kind of trying to do like the male dominant thing
where it's like he's working for Sela and he's
working for Nerv at the same time, just like
Kaji is. And they're both playing. Right. Exactly.
And it's like, for what end? And it's like, well,
Akari has an end. That's Akari does have an end
in mind from the beginning. And he's playing
everybody. Kaji is just kind of trying to see
what the fuck's happening. What do you get? I
just want to know. What the fuck? I think one
of the problems, and maybe you can enlighten
me if you have the answer, but I truly cannot
figure out what the difference is between what
Gendo wants and what Sele wants. It just seems
like Gendo just wants to do it first or be the
one who actually initiates it. Gendo wants to
do it through Shinji. Yeah, but it's just very
unclear what that even means or what the point
is. I guess the way he wants to do it will bring
him, back to yui like and he'll like see yui
again or something like that but like all of
it is dead they're both death right but but it's
also legacy right like that's the other thing
where it's like you know that that like final
little voiceover where it's like because of this
entire project because of the project of the
avas at the end of time We will know that humans
existed. And what Jendo Akari is doing is saying,
like, yeah, and I did it, dude. This was my thing.
I used my kid. I'm God. Right. Like, yeah, I
fucked God and created eternity. But I don't
think Sele has any problem with what happens.
Like, I think they want the exact same thing.
I don't get what the chess match is between Gendo
and Seilei. I never have. It's not made any clearer
in the manga. I think in the show, basically,
they both want the human instrumentality project.
Basically, they both want everyone to turn into
the goo and become the primordial ooze again.
And Seilei's fine with it being Shinji in the
end, too. I just don't know why it matters how
it happens. of this stuff it's never made clear
like that's just like one of the most unclear
things like in every version of Evangelion no
matter what things are explained that entire
thing is just like You can never track this.
It doesn't make any sense. There's like no drama
to the chess match between Gendo. I would bet
that there's somebody out there who can explain
it to you. Maybe. But I think that it doesn't
matter. I don't think it matters either. There's
things that probably explain this in a computer
screen in the Evangelion Sega game that never
came out in America. You know what I mean? There's
lore to this that people have gone into. But
I think what Evan's saying... I don't think it
matters. And he's right about. Right, that it's
not teleologically coherent. The whole point
is this is a guy who was not writing this from
the beginning. Correct. He set up Sele and Nerve.
These were just ideas of archetypes that then
ended up combining or something because what
he ended up saying was something different than
what he started saying. Maybe the guy who started
Om Shinrikyo could tell us what those symbols
were supposed to be. I'm not going to go into
the manga in detail yet, but on this point. Even
Sadamoto in the manga doesn't really explain
this. Yeah, and he had, like, 20 years. And he
explains everything in the whole entire show
better than the show does. He's more interested
in the lore making sense. Just for context, the
manga started coming out, like, just before the
show and then finished, like, in 2000. 8 or something
like 2015 or something like you know what i mean
it took forever to come out yeah and it is basically
a direct to look that up direct adaptation like
it's it's one -to -one almost there are things
that are different but it's not anything like
the rebuild movies where they're completely different
like it's this is the exact same story and it
goes to a very similar conclusion i mean by the
end you'll explain more when we get to that but
for most of the series it is pretty identical
And he's just kind of filling in gaps and kind
of providing more context and stuff. So yeah,
no, you're right. The manga started in 1994 and
then ended in 2013. 2013, yeah. So yeah, that's
a long time to meditate on what was concluded
in 97. Yeah. And the very end of the manga, there's
like a sort of epilogue portion that tracks like
when Yui met Gendo. Okay. I don't really know
why it's important. But it follows that new character
from the Rebuild movies. Mari? Yeah, Mari is,
like, the main character in this segment. And
she, like, hates Yui because she's really jealous
of Yui. And actually because she really loves
Yui. So she's essentially, like, it's an Asuka
dynamic, you know. And they're, like, both in
school. And Yui is just, like, the smartest,
most accomplished. like, most beautiful, most
nice person there, you know? She's not the nerd.
And Mari hates her, and part of it's also because
Mari, like, loves Gendo, too. And Mari's, like,
16 years old in this as well, so she's, like,
really young. She's apparently, like, the most
advanced student in her, like, small pond, but,
like, when she comes here, Yui's better than
her. 16's a little old for Gendo. Yeah, exactly.
But yeah, and then she just has like a little
conflict. She just has like a little thing with
Yui where she tells Yui how she feels and then
says she's going to go like study abroad in England.
And then that's like where that ends. So I have
no idea what the point of that is. Interesting.
But that clearly also had the reboots to look
back on as well at that point because adding
Mari. Yeah, yeah. Just like on that point about.
just because the manga, like, does sort of explain
everything a little better and does have access
to the scripts and earlier versions of scripts
and also the later mangas have, like, retrospects.
Like, the whole series has ended. End of Evangelion's
come out already. Like, it has a lot more to
work with. And you would think, like, if the
fan community was upset that there was no difference
between Sele and Nerve, that, like, he could
have fixed that. But you're saying he didn't.
Yeah, but all you get is like a very detailed
explanation of everything else. But then on that
point, Misato just says, but Sele and your father
have different goals or means to their ends or
whatever. And it's like, that's all that's said.
Like, there's no actual real explanation of what
that difference is. In the movie and the show,
it has something to do with the Lance of Longinus
because Ikari just wants to use the Lance of
Longinus just to get it in the atmosphere. They're
like, well, we can't use the Lance. He's like,
dude, we just need to use it for something. And
then they use that, and then Serlei's mad that
they used the lance because then they have to
go get it from outer space, which they do find
in the movie or something. It doesn't make any
sense at all. They don't actually retrieve the
lance. The lance simply just comes to Shinji.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he's also in outer space.
Yeah, I don't know. The show is fucking incredible.
I don't know. Did you guys have more feelings
about... the themes of the show, the last two
episodes in particular, like how you feel about
everything that leads up to that. And like, is
all this stuff we're talking about, pointless,
all this plot stuff. And does any of it matter?
And is Evangelion just kind of like, what is
the difference between unit zero and unit one?
Yeah, sure. Like what? It's Rey's soul, which
is also like Rey is kind of soulless because
it's also part of Yui's soul, which is already
in Unit One. And, you know, there's like, do
those things matter? I think they don't. I think
I think that's kind of what the end of the series
says. You know what I mean? That's like part
of the thing that's so successful about that
last episode is that one harem anime part. where
at the very end it cuts to, like, the Asuka's
waking up Shinji, and then, yeah, yeah, the bizarro
Evangelion, where everything's sweet and happy,
and, like, it's just like, oh, there's a new
girl at school, and she's a little weird, and
she's Rei, and he's got a crush on her, but he's
actually got a girlfriend. Rei Ayanami! Hi, gang!
It's very much like... I don't want to be late
for school! When Anna was given this project,
he was allowed to do basically whatever he wanted.
Like, this was, like, just anything. Like, was
kind of the deal. And he decided to write Evangelion.
But, like, he could have written that instead.
Like, you know what I mean? And I think the thing
of showing that juxtaposition at the end is,
like, very, very powerful. Because it's just,
like, after such incredible, like, soul -crushing
darkness and, like, brutal... Watching all these
people you love be, like, dismembered and, like,
destroyed. Like, psychologically destroyed. Like,
having that be like, but it could have been this.
Is so powerful. It's one of my favorite things
about the end is that, like, it actually, like,
really can get across that vibe in a way that
I don't think anything else really can. It uses
that Godard -ness of being able to totally drop
what it's doing and do something else. But it
actually does that right. It's just something
that I've never, like, I've never seen anything
like that in another piece of media. And I mean,
like, it's playing with that from the jump. Like,
off mic, Mike and I were talking a little bit
about. how much I struggle with the early episodes
of the series, like really the first 10. And
the thing I struggle with is the nerve of it
all. Like every single angel of the week feels
somehow like more perfunctory than the next.
But the thing that makes it kind of all worth
it is that that moment at the end where we see
like the potential. I mean, the life that Shinji
really wants for himself where like, you know,
he lives with his mom and dad and his teacher
is Masato. And, you know, he has like. a crush
on both like his mom, sister clone, and also
the smart girl in class. Like that can either
be like a disgusting and horrifying and soul
crushing thing of like having a crush on this
mommy figure, or it could be just a cute, funny
thing. Right. You know? Right. And that's up
to you. Well, I think that's what the early episodes
do is that like, they present that as Masato
Katsuragi. Like she is. She is that person. She
is a mother figure that he's also completely
and totally in love with. And they show us like
a domestic environment that like, I don't know,
maybe I'm telling on myself a little bit here,
but I go like, that seems great. Like, I love
it. Like every time the music kicks in, every
time we see, yep, pen, pen, every time she has
a beer for breakfast, there's something like
so. idyllic and beautiful about it even though
they're the only person in that apartment building
and stuff yes it's like it's yeah it's it's a
very those scenes are amazing they're great every
moment spent in Misata's apartment when like
they're just hanging out and living with one
another they're like beautiful scenes I completely
and totally agree and I mean like that's that
payoff in the finale where it's just like yeah
wouldn't it be great if we could live in this
all the time and then I don't know the kind of
jarring realization that like that's not that's
not actually a possibility that's not a a real
thing that can happen although i guess like in
the movie a little bit they're kind of hitting
it where it's like happiness is anywhere if you
look for it you know what i mean like if you're
really looking for happiness you can find it
well i think i think the thing the thing that's
interesting about that reality to me is like
the base of what's happening to shinji is the
same like if we're if we're thinking of shinji
as an otaku like or or a modern hakika a depressed
japanese boy if we're thinking of him as that
and like the show is this post -modern world
that he can live in instead of the mundane realities
of his life or whatever like all of these angels
all these archetypes all of this fighting and
all this superhero stuff and whatever like that's
all something that he's bringing to just like
his mundane life and it is the same mundane life
that's happening in this other harem reality
and it's just like to me that's a very simple
like it's it's almost been all to say but it's
just like The idea that that is what we all are.
We're living in a world where like we are in
our apartments and then we go to work and we
drive home, whatever. Like if we're living in
a world where like we are constantly like dealing
with the, I don't know, the terrors in the Middle
East or something or whatever, like that is a
very stressful world to live in. If you're living
in a world where you really care, like you are
choosing which anime you are in. You know what
I mean? That's very much how we all construct
our reality. And that's very much the way that
it's discussed to Shinji over the course of those
final two episodes. So I think it does a really
good job of actually just, like, not just explaining
that, but really, like, making you emotionally
realize that. Where it's like, oh, this whole
show is just a fantasy by a guy named Anno who
has all of these sick things that are connected
to these anime archetypes that he loves and whatever.
And... It doesn't have to be that way. If you've
got a crush on the girl that you're staying with,
it doesn't need to be like, you're so disgusted
because she also is a mother figure and it's
horrible and she tried to take advantage of me
and blah blah. It's just kind of fun and cute.
It's just as easy. You can just live in that
reality. Right, and that can be a real thing.
You can acknowledge, oh yeah, I guess there is
a mother figure element to this, but choosing
to constantly... crush yourself with that information,
that's the choice. That's the thing that you
can just let go. I ultimately think it's a pretty
solipsistic vision that the last two episodes
paint. It almost explicitly says that your reality
is of your making and it's all just a matter
of perspective. I think part of what you were
saying earlier, Josh, about Shinji being on the
rails, it's because Shinji has no vision. He
has no interest. He has no desires. He doesn't
know what he wants out of life. He is traumatized
because of his mother dying and his dad abandoning
him. Shinji can't see a future since Shinji has
no hope. Shinji just doesn't know how to... imagine
a reality for himself and so like everyone around
him cares about him and loves him enough to engage
with him and keep pushing him on to be something
and i don't know i guess like he doesn't have
a lot of choices it's true like the ava is the
only thing he has and like the constant struggle
throughout the show even like even in the first
10 episodes even though they're like i agree
like they're the hardest to get through is that
even early on, Shinji is just a character who,
like, is stuck in this conflict where he doesn't
know what he wants. But, like, he knows that
if he does this thing, it'll, like, make him
a part of this community and, like, the people
will respect him. Yeah, validation from other
people. And validation and whatever. There's
also specifically a parental thing tied in, a
family unit thing, and the parents defining the
future thing that's very Japanese. Sure, exactly,
and kind of finding your new family. And I do
think... he refuses the call a comical amount
of times. But that's really interesting. Like
how many times he says, I'm not going to pilot
the AVA anymore. And puts his foot down. And
they're always, like, it's complicated because
they're always, like, you have a choice and you
can make a decision. But, like, he doesn't really
have vision. He doesn't really have another choice.
He doesn't know what else to do. He always comes
back to the Ava because, like, the alternative
is just, like, running away. Like, not doing
the thing and then having nothing to replace
it with. Yep. And then always just having to
go back to it. And it like constantly haunts
him. And he literally is being surveilled by
nerve agents every time he leaves and whatever.
And even if he went to like the ends of the earth,
he can't really run away from his past or any
of the things he's been a part of. So the show
paints a complicated picture of reality where
like in a lot of ways you are stuck and you don't
have a lot of options. You don't have a lot of,
there are like limits to everything. But then
at the same time says like, none of it's actually
real. And like, based on the way you look at
things and the way you think about things can
completely change everything like none of these
people are real because they're just like facsimiles
in your mind and like they're just as real as
you are in everybody else's mind the you that
exists in other people's minds concept and not
just that but i mean like ray is the logical
extension of that right in the i think it's in
the movie or it's in the last episode when It's
like, you're not a real person. And she says,
I'm not a doll. I'm created by the things that
other people see in me. Like, other people's
experiences are the things that created me. And
I start, like, that's my baseline. But then my
experiences after that are what create me. And,
like, that's something that Shinji understands
a little bit about himself, but then cannot reify.
He can't animate that in himself. And, like,
that's what ultimately undoes him, right? Yeah,
he puts his foot down. Yeah, he says he's not
going to do it. But it's like, it's not that
he's not going to do it. He becomes physically
incapable. He breaks down completely and totally
mentally. I mean, it fucking sucks too, because
every time he does the job, he keeps being like,
I mean, it's just being an adult, but he keeps
being put up against challenges that are just
very psychologically difficult to deal with.
A lot of the time, it's not even him that defeats
the thing. It's his mother. Like, you know what
I mean? Especially early on. He just has to be
there for Mommy to be able to lift the car off
of him. It doesn't happen an insane amount of
times. Most of the angel battles, Shinji's in
control, and he's overcoming something, and he's
making decisions. But every time he can't do
it and he breaks down, Mommy takes over. So it
literally is like a parent -child relationship
where the child runs the show and controls what
Mommy does until... the child can't do something
for themselves. It's kind of why, like, the sync
rate is an interesting thing because it's, you
know, Asuka's sync rate is constantly plummeting
because she's feeling further and further away
from this idea of her mother. And because of
her period. Well, obviously. But actually, that's
why she's in that tub with blood. Yeah, it actually
is her period, too. But Shinji, at the moment,
he's he's most in touch with like i don't know
the thing that gendo is looking for from yui
those are the time where it's like his sync rate
is tripled he's more his mom than ever like that
is i don't know i think there's something pretty
rich and deep there and then raise his mom too
so it all just kind of gets so like none of that
makes sense either the sync rates and what's
going on, especially in the end of Evangelion
with Rey merging with Lilith and becoming the
giant Rey. Yeah, I genuinely don't understand.
Because then she is like a giant Yui, essentially.
Yeah, I think at that point we've totally sort
of, again, just like the series, you've sort
of dispensed with any reality. It's just that
it gets to that point slowly. You know what I
mean? It gives you the actual conclusions for
all the characters actually dying, and you get
to actually see the actual thing. At a certain
point, it's just like a mashup of symbols and
stuff. You know what I mean? I don't think...
I mean, it vibes. It vibes so fucking hard. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't know that where
Gendo is sitting on the Tree of Life is important,
and I don't know that the amount of angels and
where they eat off of Asuka to ingest her S2
engine is important. You know what I mean? I
don't think any of these things are really thought
out in a way that it would be in a Spielberg
or Kubrick. or whatever well they're the s2 engines
man yeah yes they're building the new ava series
the s2 engines it's like those are important
for some reason yeah well it's all like little
he's ingesting the s2 engine right right well
that's it they don't have to be have the umbilical
cable and stuff oh that's what the s2 engine
is okay But everything is a psychological playground.
Like, I think about, like, Kawaru or whatever,
and, like, he's the version of Shinji that Shinji
wants to be, and then he's forced to kill him,
you know what I mean? And it's like, you don't
need that dude to be the last angel. I mean,
I guess you do if you need, like, the inciting
incident for Shinji is, like, the very minimal
ego he has has to experience ego death at his
own hands. I mean, the main thing with Kawaru...
And Kwaru is the only person who's ever said
I love you to Shinji. And then Kwaru pressures
Shinji to kill him as like a final act of love
to him. Like it's very complicated. It's a little
different than the Toji situation. Yeah, it's
different than the Toji situation. Which I mean
we can get into. Toji in this show was supposed
to die. and they basically made them show that
Toji was still alive because you can't have Shinji
killing children or whatever. I guess killing
Quadri was okay because he was an angel, but
killing Toji was not. So they made that very
stupid decision that does not feel like it fits
with the rest of the show. You know what I mean?
It's probably the worst thing in the show. It's
probably the one thing in the show that I actually
wish wasn't there. And the manga changes that.
Yeah, the manga kills Toji. Indeed. In death,
death and rebirth, or death true to, whatever
you want to call it, he also does not show the
living Toji. Well, and Toji effectively goes
away after that happened. When I watch it, I
just pretend Toji died because it's clear that
he should have. And I think that it would have
been nice if they just said, like, oh, no, you
didn't kill Toji, and then we never saw him again,
so you know that they're lying. But, like, no,
we do see him. He's missing a leg. He's in a...
It's stupid. Like, and it sucks because that
was an emotional thing where Shinji had to accidentally
kill his friend or whatever, but then had to
purposely kill his... boyfriend that's the television
show of it all though right like when you have
to kill toji the show's not ready to be ramping
up towards its conclusion yeah but when he has
to kill kuaru it is or when he chooses to it
is that's a moment where we're ready for shinji's
psychological break because that's how it has
to shinji does have a psychological break after
the after the toji thing but it's one of his
false endings you know what i mean it's one of
those things where it's like i finally learned
my lesson and then he doesn't actually learn
his lesson or with With Kawara's death, it kills
something in Shinji. That's the end. It's over
after that. Like, that's the moment where the
show never really goes back to normal. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Not at all. Like... I don't want
to shift gears too much, but I feel like it's
kind of shocking that we haven't talked very
much about... I don't even know how I'm going
to say this. The adult -child sexual dynamic
of... Everyone? Yeah, I mean, like... To be frank,
there's a lot of perverted shit in this show,
but it's like, yeah, it's aware of it. It's using
all those gross anime trends that it has a reputation
for that you were talking about. It's examining.
But I guess I'll highlight two particular relationships
that I think are the most interesting. I guess
I have a little theory on them, but they're almost
certainly wrong. the Mizato and Shinji relationship
and the Kaji Asuka relationship or non -relationships
there. Sure, sure. Like, I think about the...
And the Akari Bray relationship. Yeah, I mean,
that's a good point. It's a little more toxic.
But, you know, they're obviously all in a way
kind of about management. That's, like, where
I come down on them. Like, especially, like,
Mizato's last moment. She's using... her sexuality
as a professional tool you know what i mean in
the same way that kaji is and that's why i kind
of talking about in the um in the end at the
end of evangelion when she says like yeah when
you get back i'll i'll show you everything else
she gets she gives him a grown -up kiss yep and
says when you get back i mean she knows she's
gonna die whatever it's right yeah but she also
she does this earlier in the series too exactly
on the bed yep she puts her hand on his hand
and then she makes a pass at him yep like terrified
like and the boundary has been crossed. And so
you're just like, all right, fuck you then. I
mean, this is also the other thing about just
how all these characters are fucking damaged,
dude. Shinji is not the unique one. In the end,
they all get a psychological breakdown pretty
much. Yep, exactly. But that's, you know who
else is damaged? It's all of those people in
that harem anime, but they're having a good time.
You know what I mean? Yeah, it's just a different
perspective. Yeah, I guess, like, Masato's ambivalence
about her sexuality, about, like, being a sexual
person, like, it makes me, you know, not to,
like, go too far afield, but, like, the ending
of Love and Pop, you know, one of those auto
live -action movies, when it's just, like, think
about... There's this someone out there who would
hate to see you being objectified effectively.
And that's how Masato thinks of herself. Like,
Masato thinks of herself where it's like, I hated
my dad and, you know, he died saving me or whatever.
But also, like, I hate to think that there's
a father figure out there that would see me sexualized.
But also, she's constantly trying to, like, usher
in a sexual era for the people who are, like,
in her familial circle. I think that's part of
what's happening at the end of the series where
you have the shot of Shinji just watching Masato
getting fucked. Yes. And she's like, don't let
him see me like this. And is that vulnerability?
Is that not being in control? Or is it what she
says to Kaji? Like, I don't like that I want
to be dirty. The question really is, is that
Misato in that last episode? Or is that the Misato
that exists in Shinji's mind? Because Shinji
is imagining Misato being fucked by Kaji. And
does it have to be? Like, or is this instrumentalities
happening? And so, and does it matter? It all
expresses the same pathos and the same kind of
like therapeutic reckoning with your trauma so
that you can deal with the pain and pleasure
of connecting with people. Yeah. It's almost
like Kashi has that hidden thesis that he says
a handful of times to a handful of characters.
Like, Oh, what do you not like pain? And it's,
you know, You know, Shinji... Do you not like
pain? Of course I don't like pain. Exactly. But
I guess what Kashi's saying is like, no, I do
like it. That's what shows me I'm alive. Or like,
I like being the person who can inflict it. I
like being a person with power. And he's telling
Shinji, like, don't worry, dude. One day you'll
like it too. Being a man. Yeah, there's something
kind of dark about that. Yeah, yeah. I mean,
all of Shinji's father figures and mother figures
or whatever, there's something very dark about.
It makes me think about that scene in Louie when
Louie's talking to that old guy. How many legs
does this dog have? Three legs? No, wrong. The
answer is he's got plenty. No, but, yeah, when
he's saying how much he's hurting, like how much
he misses and all this stuff, and the old guy
is just like. You're a fucking idiot. Like, that's
what love is. Love is the pain. Like, you're
so fucking lucky that you're in pain right now
and you miss someone. Like, what the fuck do
you think love is? Like, you're so fucking stupid
and you're missing out on it. It's just like,
it feels like the gaji thing where it's just
like, dude, like you, like once you learn how
important pain is. to like appreciating life
you can appreciate your pain your pain makes
you feel alive your pain is something to cherish
or whatever like it's a really weird interesting
perspective shift i mean we can pin down why
this show is successful with goth kids yeah i
mean but i think you can pin down the reason
why the show is ultimately popular with lots
of people oh yeah i mean of course you know like
we're all sadomasochists in some way We all,
yeah, we all have the hedgehog's dilemma, especially,
you know, when you get hurt by people or people
die, you know, people betray you, whatever it
is. It just becomes a lot harder to navigate
connections with others and being vulnerable
and like opening yourself up in a way where you
can feel that pain again. But I think if you
never open yourself up to that pain, you don't
get any of those beautiful pleasures either.
One of the things that happens at the end of
the manga during the instrumentality is that
you could interpret this as being the ending
of the show and the end of Evangelion as well,
but the manga really clearly interprets or lays
out the idea that Shinji really does have to
make a choice about instrumentality. Right, right,
right. Shinji actually gets to make the choice
of whether or not everyone will be a single entity
or whether or not they will all go back to the
lives of being individuals. And the movie, actually.
Like, at the end of the movie, he chooses to
recreate the reality with Asuka. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. and be the new Adam and Eve. That's one
way of interpreting it, which is not really a
way I did before. I just always felt like the
congratulations ending of the show and then the
choking Asuka on the beach ending of the movie,
I just always felt like both were so abstract
that I never really interpreted them as him making
a choice to actually reconstruct the world in
a plot sense. The ending of the show, I always
imagined, yeah, he chooses to live. He chooses
boundaries. He chooses the floor, and then he
chooses people. It reconstructs the reality.
No, you're right. Exactly. You're right. I just
think reading the manga made that all really
clear in a way that wasn't really the way I interpreted
it before. Because even that whole thing of reconstructing
the reality, you're right, that makes sense in
a plot way. He's learning the safety of limitations.
It's just done as, you know, what's it called?
Chuckamuck or whatever. Exactly. It's just done
as Chuckamuck. But, you know, when I initially
saw that, I just felt like that was such an interesting
philosophical musing. I didn't really see it
as a plot thing. Because plot's basically gone
at that point and we're all just working with
symbols. But that is what's happening in the
manga. There's a much bigger emphasis on Shinji's
relationship with Rei in the manga. And he has
a giant internal monologue with Rei at the end
about whether or not to let everything fade into
one or to reconstruct everybody. He has that
conversation with Rei in the movie too. Yeah,
and this emphasis on just the pain of having
AT fields, but how the pain also leads to the
pleasure. Shinji describes the primordial ooze
as a place of nothing. It just feels like you're
dead. There's no pain, but there's also no happiness.
There's just nothing here. And so I would rather
go back to the pain of living if that means having
those warm, beautiful moments. and Shinji reconstructs
reality at the end of the manga. So the very
end of the manga is very similar to the Bizarro
world. It just feels like an alternate version
of reality. Is Shinji's mom alive in that one
too? In the Bizarro reality? Yeah, in the manga
Bizarro. No, you don't see his parents. Because
I think it's very interesting that Yui's alive
in the Bizarro reality at the end of the show
because it implies that Yui... is alive. You
know what I mean? And that Yui is on the show
as Unit 1, just like Dad is on the show as the
head of NERV. No, exactly. The tragedy of the
death of his mother may not even be the thing.
It's just his inability to connect with his mother
because he's not growing up and he's obsessed
with the anime. But also having Yui around and
with Jendo means that Ray is not his mom. It
means that she is something safe to Lost Avenue.
Yeah, exactly. That too. But also, Rei is sort
of like the soulmate for Shinji in a lot of ways.
Even though there is, like, an attraction to
Asuka, Rei really is the archetype of, like,
I'm falling for a person who reminds me of mom.
Yeah, but that's why Anno rejects it in the end.
Yeah, exactly. Like, a lot of this has to do
with his mommy issues and whatever, and his attraction
to this subservient, like, maid archetype and
stuff is not... Asuka's a real person. Like,
that's... Asuka is a real person and Asuka is
complicated and filled with trauma. And he has
to deal with that person outside of himself.
Rei is not a real person. There's nothing to
deal with with Rei. Rei is a fantasy. She's a
jerk -off fantasy for anime nerds. She's fan
service and it's an archetype that is that. Anno
is trying to make that archetype as uncomfortable
as possible. I don't think that he's trying to
say that this is the soulmate for Shinji. I think
he's trying to say, like, yeah, in anime, this
is the soulmate for Shinji. Isn't that fucked
up? And this is what he wants. He wants the safest
possible thing that reminds him of his mother,
that will protect him in every conceivable circumstance,
and will ask... Nothing of him, either emotionally
or physically, unless he wants it. Right. That's
another pretty big difference in the manga, which
a lot of these differences really do speak to...
Satomoto versus Anno. Yeah, Satomoto versus Anno,
just their sensibilities. The way Anno is using
Shinji as a vector for him, and Satomoto is doing
something very similar in his version. I wouldn't
say much more, but Shinji is absolutely much
less of a doormat in the manga. He even tries
to swing at Gendo at one point. He actually tries
to physically attack his father. Nice. That's
what men do. Yeah, and he's slightly more spunky
and communicative and whatever. And there's just
a lot more time spent with Shinji and his inner
monologue in the manga. But another thing the
manga does more with is... It tries to do a little
bit more with Rei, kind of, like, becoming a
real person. Okay. Sort of, like, gaining a little
bit more personhood and doing that through her
connection with Shinji. Okay. And, like, the
way he makes her feel. And ultimately, in the
end, like, she falls in love with Shinji and
she rejects Gendo. Interesting. But also, like,
she dies and that version of her is essentially
gone. And the new one that shows up is, like,
not there for very long before the ending. And,
like, Shinji doesn't really have much of a relationship
with the new one. Ray 3. Ray 3, yeah. But Ray
3 still has, like... Which is probably Ray, like,
30. Ray 3 that we see in the show. Well, I think
me calling it Ray 3, like, I buy that enough.
Like, I feel like the first one was the child.
It just got a lot of backups. I know, but the
first one was the child. So, obviously, Ray,
like... starts as a child and grows up so that's
what's weird about all the adult ones already
in the plug or whatever but um i would say the
first one is the little kid that gets choked
out by you know ritsuku's mom and then the second
one is the one that we all know in the show right
but theoretically there could be many in between
there there could be it doesn't matter as well
doesn't really matter as well but how many times
gendo got a little too excited choking her out
That I think is like the end in the movie where
he just grabs her tit and his hand goes into
her. It's so molesty. It's so creepy. Yeah, Gendo's
creepy. Gendo's kind of a monster. Gendo's a
bad guy. And he is a bad guy because he just
wants to destroy humanity. He just wants like...
Is that what he wants? I mean, that's kind of
the thing. I mean, I guess part of it is that
he wants to make his son a man, right? And his
definition of a man is himself or something and
fighting these angels and doing his bidding.
I think in the manga, at least, that's another
thing that's fleshed out a little more that you
don't need to accept as part of Anno's version.
But Gendo is also just a severely broken person,
too. Right. And Gendo is also just like... More
like Shinji than you would admit. He just wants
to live in the primordial ooze and not have to
deal with pain anymore. Right. Because of his
trauma of losing the only person that he loved
and that accepted him. Exactly. The only person
who accepted him for who he was and whatever.
He also had his trauma and blah, blah, blah.
They all do. Every character. Even the ones that
aren't really put under a microscope. They're
like hints. Oh, yeah. Nobody has a mom. I mean,
Fiutski being in love with Yui as well. I love
how in the end of Evangelion when they become
the liquid, Rey becomes whoever their person
was or whoever they were in love with or whoever
their mom was or just whoever gave them comfort.
I can't really, I don't know who exactly. Remember
the programmer? Yeah, the guy on the control
desk with the glasses whose name I can't remember.
Misato shows up for him. Oh, no, no, no. Who's
the one who's just surrounded by rays and he's
screaming? Oh, the other programmer. Yeah, I
love that. I love that one, man. That is his
desires. And he isn't even, you know what I mean?
He's just like, no! I'm not this person. And
it's like, that is, that is Anno for, for the
otaku fans who love Ray. Like, you know what
I mean? That is the most horrible death of anybody
in the series. He's just surrounded by the children.
He wants to fuck like screaming. Yeah. His, his
deep unchecked desire is being the otaku killer.
Nope. Exactly. Exactly. He just wants to eat
Ray. So fucked up. Yeah, and there's the girl
who's in love with Ritsuko and the guy who's
in love with Misato and all that. It's all very
sweet, actually. When she types, I love you,
and then she looks up at her, it's very sweet.
But that's also just like a really, it's so sad
that like... It's such an interesting moment
of pathos that happens out of left field. Those
characters aren't really dug into at all. Exactly.
But it's amazing how much you get out of those
moments. Because it implies the eternal lives
of everybody that you haven't known. Yeah, it's
intimate. There's this unrequited, unspoken desire
that each of these characters have that is unfulfilled.
And we're suddenly intimate with them and their
internal thoughts because we are all becoming
this. It really gets across the whole idea. But
it's not just that. Is there anything more depressing
than being like the person who's basically the
Reaper's Scythe is like my PMC fucking boss.
Like that sucks so bad. They don't even sleep
at home. Those guys. At one point, they're saying,
like, oh, well, at least you get to sleep at
your house. Like, these people don't leave. They're
part of a fascist organization. These people,
like, who knows if they had any choice in whether
they got these jobs. Like, the kids don't. Their
mothers were murdered, and they were put in this
school, and they're made to be, like, nobody
has any choice. This is all constructed by...
nerve and and the marduk institute but it's also
the stability that comes from trauma right where
it's just like i don't care if it fucking means
anything i'll take anything that feels like structure
yeah yeah i guess like when we keep saying like
does it does any of it matter like after watching
ritual and being like it's all about like I just
miss my mom and I don't want to be lonely and
anxious anymore. You know, I guess that's what
matters. The end of ritual is just like a therapy
session. Did you guys go, did you guys go through
the credits by the way, all the way at the end
of the credits, the thing that comes up at the
end of the credits. Wait, no, I didn't. At the
very end of the credits, I, I read this as like
supremely malevolent. It says, uh, beyond the
33rd day, Unknown. That's the last card that
comes up. And I was just like, oh, holy shit.
Stories don't really end. Yep. Or they do abruptly.
Can we hold this thought and take a break because
we're two hours in? Absolutely. All right, so
I guess the one thing that got brought up a little
bit earlier but we didn't really get into, and
part of it's that I don't really know that I
have a good answer for it, is how do we think
of piloting the AVA? What do you think the archetype
is that's being expressed? We've talked a little
bit about how on our deals with archetypes. question
i asked but yeah we never really answered we
kind of we got off and started talking about
archetypes in general and how he's turning things
on their heads and i think we didn't even really
get into that but You know, like Asuka is a certain
type of archetype that never has, you know, bad
things don't happen to that character. And, I
don't know, the Rei character where the panties
fly up and the guy's in the room holding the
boobs and then he's embarrassed that he saw her
nude and whatever. Like, all of that stuff, like,
these are archetypes that he then makes uncomfortable.
Where it's like, well, that's that weird, you
know, jerk -off scene for anime fans. And then
it's like, well, actually, that's your mother.
Like, you know what I mean? And then, you know,
he does the hospital scene in the movie and stuff,
which we haven't even gotten to. But, like, he's
using his archetypes and then making them different.
But what exactly is the archetype of piloting
the Eva if we apply it to the ideas of being
a 14 -year -old boy and growing up in Japanese
society? It's protector, right? It's cop. It's
soldier. It's basically, like, I have no power
in my regular everyday life. And, yeah, granted,
like, I inherited this from my father or whatever,
but, like, Shinji... No, I think it's Asuka at
one point. Like, they ask, like, why does it
feel good? Why do you pilot the Eva? And it's,
like, because I want to protect people. And it's...
Obviously, it's, you know, they're talking about
themselves. I want to protect myself from the
trauma I had in the past that led me to do this
so willingly in the first place. But, like, I
think that the central theme there is, like...
We are protectors. We have purpose. There's an
enemy there, you know, that potentially created
the second impact, and I am the stable guard
against the potential third impact. The thing
is, they don't, like, actually know the truth
about what they're doing at all. Exactly. Yeah,
yeah, of course. It's not about that. But they
don't ask questions. But to be fair, isn't that
every soldier? Like, they give you a gun, they
tell you to go into a country, and you go, like,
that's your enemy. It's essentially an embrace
of authoritarianism. Yes. I think... I think
essentially like if we're going to talk about
the Bizarro ending basically being the same exact
thing as the show, it can all be sort of summed
up as like a banal reality that he is then like
imagining in this like. completely heightened
way that matches his emotions more. But then
what is the banal reality? Are you talking about
basically it's going to school and getting good
grades and being a good son and getting the right
job? I think the Ava thing in particular is just
a stand -in for doing some kind of job or starting
to be involved in your father's business or something
like that. Purpose in a purposeless life. Even
if the business itself, whatever the business
itself is doing is irrelevant, you find... the
meaning in the approval that you get for being
a part of the system. Of course, because let's
say Gendo is just the CEO of a multi -conglomerate
weapons manufacturer or something, and Shinji
is just getting involved in that. He's given
a role there. It's bizarre because you're dealing
with weapons of war. 14 -year -olds, which, like,
the idea that you'd ever... But, like, that's
the thing. It's, like, not about it actually
being, like, weapons of war. It's just, in Shinji's
mind, it feels like that type of responsibility
to him. Like, whatever it actually is, the responsibility
being thrust upon him by his father and his father's
work is something that he doesn't feel cut out
for. So it's his father's values, basically,
that he is accepting. Yeah, because his father's
values. His parents' values, right? Because it
is his mother that he is going into the womb
of. Of course, and if we're going to accept that
his mom is absolutely just a part of this as
well, because honestly the entire project is
his mom's work, we can't forget about that. Right,
that's the thing that's revealed in the very
end, is that Yui did not... Yui is the genius.
She came up with all this shit. Gendo is just
like somebody who is seeing to completion what
Yui was doing. I mean, in the same way that Shinji
is, right? Right. And Yui is the real sick twisted
one, too. Like, that's the thing. Like, Yui is
the one that creates all of this that both the
cards have to play out. But this is her master
plan to destroy the world, right? I mean, I know
something goes wrong when Shinji's there, and
that's when Yui is put into Avian 1. That's what
they say, that something went wrong. But... It
doesn't seem to me like anything went wrong.
It seems like if something went wrong, then it
went incredibly right because they created everything
that they wanted out of this accidental thing
that went wrong. And Yui wanted Shinji to be
there to watch it. Well, yeah, the EVAs wouldn't
work the way they do and you wouldn't have been
able to do the third impact instrumentality,
whatever the fuck, extravaganza, without the
sentience of the EVA and the Yui being a part
of that or whatever. It does feel like it would
have been part of the plan. Yeah. But that's
another thing that's really hard to track, is
what the plan actually is. All we kind of know
is that there was a Yui's plan that started all
of this. In the manga, though, Yui actually chooses
to remain with the Eva. That's explicitly stated.
So it's more intentional. I think it's never
really explained clearly what happens to Yui.
She just disappears, so she dissolved into the
entry plug, just like Shinji does. halfway through
the series which is totally foreshadowing to
the last two episodes because he just ends up
in the sea of you know lcl and then just has
like a that's also really like introspective
episode i think it's like halfway through the
show like episode 16 or something yeah yeah but
so yui also like disappears into the entry plug
and never re -emerges you know there's no body
like her grave is just like there's nothing there
right and she ends up living in the Eva right
because she's still alive and she specifically
does it in the manga to protect Shinji so it's
all kind of part of the plan right in the manga
it ends up feeling like the entire thing was
like the most insane plan Of a mother to protect
her child for eternity. Right. That it was all
for Shinji. Right. Because like in the end, when
instrumentality comes, he's in this little tiny
insular bunker and he gets to decide what happens
to the fate of humanity. He gets to decide whether
or not the world is like a beautiful place. It's
what every parent wants for their child, isn't
it? The ability to determine their own destiny.
It's literally the dream of what every parent
wants for their child. that you control your
destiny, that you have infinite possibilities.
That's the last line of the manga, is Shinji
saying, like, I know times will be tough, I know
the road will be winding, but the sun will always
shine and lead the way, and my life could have
infinite possibilities. Yeah, yeah. And he says
the same thing towards the end of the series,
too. Essentially, yeah, yeah. So, like, they're
all very similar, like the ending of the show,
the end of Evangelion. and um the manga ultimately
they're all pretty life -affirming i think the
end of the movie though is the weirdest like
him choking out oscar on the beach and her saying
disgusting and all that it's so much more dark
and cynical well i mean i guess kind of to get
into what we started to talk about a little bit
earlier was yeah after the end of the series
Fans were upset. They wanted a better ending
that was higher budget and whatever. This is
at least the narrative, yeah. And Anno created
this movie in which they show on screen hate
mail from the fans and stuff. So it is very much
a response to this fan community. I think really
does do the same thing again. Like, it's not
like he's going back and being like, oh, okay,
well, I'll give you a totally different ending
that was kind of the original series ending or
whatever. No, he's really still doing the ending
of the show, but he's just making it integrate
with the show more. And I think the aesthetics
of the movie are... Like, I think the movie is
so cinematic. This last viewing, I was just so
impressed with the first half. Just, like, Asuka's
fight and death and everybody that you know dying,
like, in the most devastating ways. And Asuka
calling out to her mom and realizing that it's
been her mom the whole time and then dying. Like,
it's... I'll kill you, I'll kill you, I'll kill
you, I'll kill you. And when I watch that scene,
I cry. It's a stupid thing to be crying watching
fighting robots, but it is so sad. It's not fighting
robots, though. No, but it's... It's an intensely
sad movie. When it cuts to credits in the middle
of the movie, at the end of Death and Rebirth,
the first half of the movie, it's just like...
The most bleak possible place to leave everybody.
It's just like everything has gone wrong and
there is no light at the end of the tunnel. And
then the second half really isn't a light at
the end of the tunnel. It's just like pure symbols
and stuff. And Shinji's screaming and then it
all returns to nothing. It's a light if you choose
to see it as light. The movie gets more meta
and has all the live action photography. Yeah,
it's incredible. The shots from the premiere.
I love it. That's one of my favorites. And over
it it says, does it feel good? It's just so vicious.
It's Hanukkah having his dudes turn to the camera
and be like, isn't this what you wanted? Right,
yeah. Except here, it feels so much meaner. Because
he's showing you you. He's being like, this is
you. This is you and this is what you want. He
made him jerk off to a comatose Asuka to completion
on screen first. He made you feel so gross about
every single part. Misato is no longer... Everybody
is ruined by the end of this. Who's the lowest
of the low? We are the lowest of the low. Even
when... Tari is talking to Ritsuko, and it just,
like, blanks out his line of, like, it's always
been. Okay. It's so mean. Something just clicked
for me. You keep saying we're the lowest of the
low, and now I'm realizing why, because that's,
like, the translation you saw. Yeah, the translation
says I'm the lowest of the low. Yeah, but there's
a different translation that says I'm so fucked
up. Yeah, the other English translation says
I'm so fucked up. I like that more. Oh, I get
that. I totally get it. Yeah. Lowest of the low
alternate translation of Shinji looking at his
cum -covered hand in front of a komato sasuke.
Yeah. I love the shot of the locked door and
stuff. That's the thing we were saying about
last episode, the Akira episode, just talking
about the beauty of Evangelion. When I was talking
about the animation -wise, but just stuff like
that is, I think, what... We mean by the beauty
of it. Even like these still images can be so
beautiful and Evangelion just like. Anno is,
like, really a master at environmental storytelling.
Totally. I mean, there's so many of the shots
of the wires and the empty streets and stuff,
and those are all over his movies. There's that
whole classical montage that's just, like, the
trains and buildings and whatever. It's, like,
it has nothing to do with, like... And just the
establishing shots. The establishing shot of
Misato's porch and the establishing... Like,
there are such beautiful environments, and, like,
the vibe... is so weird because it's this huge
empty city it's it's very like and there's nothing
but there's crickets all the time when i was
in uh what middle school buying these dvds in
the first place when the platinum collection
came out i fucking returned one because i was
like there just keeps being this buzzing noise
i was like it's just talking about the cicadas
yeah the cicadas uh the cicadas everywhere like
i never heard cicadas like that because it's
a japanese cicadas you hear them all over other
japanese movies but i was just like there's something
wrong with the soundtrack and i returned it and
then i got another disc and i was like oh i guess
it's supposed to be there but it's actually another
thing that gets brought up in the manga like
there's like a flashback with yui and a young
shinji that's the regrowing earth and all the
cicadas coming back she says yeah she says like
like there used to be more sounds than just the
cicadas yeah long ago but like like it's just
cicadas 24 7 now yeah yeah um but yeah i i think
just going back to the the thing about shinji
and what the piloting the ava is I think one
of the interesting takes I heard on another podcast
was the relationship between Ikari and Shinji
is kind of a similar relationship to Anno and
Miyazaki. Miyazaki is kind of this giant anime
leader and whatnot. And then Anno came on as
an animator on Nausicaa and blah, blah, blah.
There's some connection there because Miyazaki
is... well known as a horrible boss and a mean
person who hates everybody. Like he hated this
son's movie and said like, like there's like
a, he was quoted publicly. He's a real salty
misanthrope for like how beautifully joyful his
movies are. Yeah. But he has embraced his relationship
with Anno, even though he doesn't like any of
Otaku culture, any of the other Otaku people
or the rest of like filmmakers, like he does.
Except Anno in some way. He knows Anno's hate
is pure. Right, right. They do have a similar
self -hatred. I think it's the self -hatred that's
important though. Yes. I think that's the thing
about the controversy over the ending of the
show or whatever. And then like, because this
is another thing like that guy brings up in the
YouTube series about the history of Gainax is
just like thinking that that whole thing was
overblown because of a vocal minority. and that
there's a narrative that's really pervaded about
how the end of Evangelion was specifically made
as an attack on the fans, and how he kind of
rejects that narrative and whatever. I think
when you say it's mean -spirited and it says,
does it feel good over the audience and stuff
like that, I don't know. I think it is easy to
see it either way. I think it can just as easily
be seen as like, Well, it's neither way, though.
It's both. Basically, I think Anno's concern
is to look inward and deconstruct himself and
criticize himself and whatever. And when an artist
is displaying this kind of brutal honesty about
themselves, that ultimately does just become
something that people... internalize personally.
Or like we reflexively analyze it, right? Like
it becomes something that adds to the myth of
the show itself. I just think sometimes when
someone is like being self -deprecating and attacking
themselves, somebody ends up seeing that as an
attack on them because like you're bringing up
something so specific and like deep. Yeah, but
I just, I think that this can be like. It's an
attack on otaku culture, and Anno is a key figure
in otaku culture. I just think those things are
so intrinsically linked. And at the time, so
was Asahara. You know what I mean? So was the
guy running Onsen Riki. I'm saying those things
are so intrinsically linked that when Anno attacks
himself, he is also attacking... the culture
that they're inseparable I think that he's doing
that overtly like he's like when you say like
we want to minimize the narrative that this was
a response to fans or whatever it's like but
Anno himself put fan mail in the final like montage
like it's he is embracing the thing and he is
showing the audience and saying does it feel
good like you don't need to go to the external
like sources to find like he is specifically
talking to an audience of otaku in a vicious
way like and yes that's also it's it's okay for
him to do it because it's like i could say the
n -word if i'm black like you know what i mean
it's like you're it's okay for you to attack
otaku because you are an otaku but like if this
was being made by some non -otaku it would be
vicious and and wrong like you wouldn't it wouldn't
have anything to say like you know what i mean
yeah And Anno is, like, one of the top four or
five anime creators who is responsible for, like,
making otakus so mainstream. Right, right. It's
just, like, Evangelion, like the works of Miyazaki
and Mamoru Oshii and Kachihiro Otomo. Like, these
are the people who really, like, made this whole
thing mainstream. And are part of this larger
conversation about how otaku culture has kind
of just taken over the globe. It's like, otaku
never meant you were a fan of anime. So at this
point, I kind of just don't see any difference
between... In Japan, they still don't identify
as otaku. That's like an American thing. I just
think what the phrase means can be applied to
so many people now and so many interests. Yeah,
well, that I think is what's interesting about
the Hikikomori idea. Like, I think that... the
idea of the isolation that comes from sort of
modernization, I think that there's an anime
to hikikomori pipeline. You know what I mean?
There's a postmodern disease that both have,
and it's the same thing. And I think the hikikomori
thing is something that is something that we
all have in the West now. People are more isolated
and just living on their computers. Yeah, I mean,
maybe they don't have the same anxiety about
leaving their houses, but like... Kind of they
do. Like, you know what I mean? A hundred percent
they do. Yeah. So like it's, it's, you know,
it is a universal thing more and more as the
culture gets more and more modernized and people
embrace post -modernism more and more. No, I
think you can safely say there are way more people
now who don't have like vibrant communities that
are like in person. Like I bet most people just
don't know their neighbors or who lives around
them. Totally. A lot of people our generation
not having kids and not like starting families
or those types of connections and like having
kids like connects you to a whole bunch of other
stuff as well. But then having a job connects
you to more things and more people are doing
jobs that don't actually connect you to people.
And then all the options at your fingertip because
of technology as far as like entertainment on
your phone and just like. all the communication
and validation and dopamine you can kind of get
from just interacting with the world through
your device. And how that becomes the more important
aspect of your life. You know what I mean? More
definitional for your personality and how you
see yourself. It's also had a really huge impact
on the world and our politics and on how actual
reality works. Like you can't actually ignore
what happens on the internet anymore. It has
an actual tangible effect on things. Personal
isolation has absolutely leached out into a broader
politics of isolation. You don't see the value
in other people because you don't need them as
much for the thing that satisfies you. And you
don't have things in common with those people
who live around you. Well, inherently, you're
hyper -individualized. And that paradigm allows
for extremism, fascism. you know, dominant systems
of control, conspiracy theory, your own narrative
reality. It's, it's, it's like a hardcore, like
nobody's touching grass and like, you know, connecting
with one another kind of thing. So like, because
we're all disconnected and fractured, it's so
easy to control people with, uh, media and just.
at the very least, keeping them distracted from
anything. And they're way too overstimulated
by, like, all the information that's coming in
and just, like, like you said, the entire global
narrative that's at your fingertips every day,
even though you're just in your room. And I don't
really think this is, like, one of the main things
Evangelion's doing, but I think that part of
it is the reason that these characters are fighting
these angels is because it's something that's
kind of too complicated for them to fully understand,
and they're not... If they ask questions, they're
not really going to get satisfying answers. So
it doesn't really, there is no answer to what
they're actually doing. They might as well be
like working for an AI program or something like
that. You know what I mean? There's no, you're
just going out and you're working and you're
doing and you're contributing. But what you're
contributing to is something that you're so removed
from that it really doesn't matter. And you can
go kill for that thing. You can go kill your
friends. You can kill the boy you just fell in
love with. She's almost like a little like man
or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, he's a complete Eichmann.
Because, yeah, he is, like, this entire project
is about ending humanity. Ultimately. I mean,
he is working for Satan against God. That is
what you realize in the end is that Sinji is
the Antichrist. When he's screaming and floating
and he's being put on a cross in outer space,
that is a vision of the Antichrist. It's pure
horror. He's not loving it, but he's the Antichrist.
What's the difference between Gendo and Peter
Thiel? I mean, Peter Thiel's into a different
gender of children. There is that. Don't sue
me, Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel is like a techno
-utopian. He's a transhumanist, and he's the
kind of guy who got asked directly whether or
not he thinks humanity should continue. and could
not actually answer that question immediately.
He kind of is a weird artistic Gendo guy. He's
like, well, you see, the thing is, and I feel
like basically what he then describes is essentially
what Gendo would say. Like, well, we would become
something beyond humanity. We would all become
digital entities in a sea of data. or whatever,
we would all become one, and there would be no
pain and suffering, and all boredom would be
amused, and all pain would be vanquished. This
is a transhumanist idea, but it's also the anime
idea. This comes out of this postmodern idea.
Once you start embracing postmodernism, you are
embracing transhumanism, and you are choosing
a reality over the reality. There's no room for
religion or spirituality. That is... It is part
of the same thing. I mean, lumping religion in,
like, religion can be a transhumanist kind of
idea of, like, an eternal soul or acting a certain
way. No, the transhumanism is that there is no
soul, that you could be transported into data,
that there's nothing in you that could not be
data. That's the transhumanist thing. No, sure,
sure. I guess that there is no soul. And that
leaves no ability for spirituality or anything.
It's an atheistic religion of the future, which
is what's expressed in science fiction. Like,
anime comes out of science fiction clubs and
whatever, and then they make anime stuff. But
this all comes out of science fiction and starts
back with, like, I mean, it starts way back.
These are fascistic ideas. I don't know. We'll
get into this more when we get into... Star Trek.
Starship Troopers. Well, Starship Troopers, too.
That's an overtly fascistic, but... Well, I like
that there was a, in the first Daikon film that
they made, there was a Starship Troopers suit.
And I was like, that's... Like, I didn't know
by looking at it, but I was like, because I didn't
actually understand, like, most of the references.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of science fiction references.
In the first Daikon. But that was, like, that
was supposedly a Starship Troopers suit, and
I was like, that's weird. Oh, to, like, grasshopper
suits? Like, yeah, one of their mobile, their
powered armor suits. I mean, that's what, Daikon
is like this whole collection of all of the things
that contribute to the anime aesthetic and stuff
and all the sources that they're pulling from
and all of that sort of vibe. So, of course,
that's in there. Playboy's in there, too. You
know, there's just as important. There was an
anime, though. That's what I didn't know. I'd
kind of like to check it out, but there's like
an eight part. Anime OVA based on Starship Troopers
from like the 80s. That's sick. That's sick.
I bet they embraced the fascism of Starship Troopers
super hard. Like hey, a fascist ethnostate. Don't
you remember like it was like a year and a half
ago there was like a cultural moment where someone
wrote an op -ed that was like actually for all
the people that are like Starship Troopers is
fascist. If you read the novel and it's like
the film is a reaction to the novel you fucking
moron. I love that shit. People are coming around
on Starship Troopers. The writing's been on the
wall for that one for so long because it's always
been a great movie. So, like, now people are
finally realizing that Starship Troopers is good.
It's like, yeah, man, welcome to the club. It's
fucking awesome. So good. Yeah, but I don't know.
Like, what's on the mind you guys got? Well,
I mean, who's the best girl? That's the number
one conversation. It's Misato. It's not even
close. You're obviously not an anime fan because
you're not a pedophile. I love Masato. Masato's
the fucking best. Well, that's the thing. Ray
and Asuka stir very strange emotions in me. Okay.
Explain. I just find both of them to be insanely
hot, but for very different reasons. Okay. Ray
is kind of like... That is the fantasy of, like,
the housewife who will just be submissive. I
mean, it's one of the porn archetypes in Japan
is the maid. The maid, yeah. It's going to be
one of the top three. Mahoramatic. There's, like,
the maid, the senpai, the, like, older classmate
from when you were a kid. No, there's a senpai,
the older classmate, and then there's, like,
a childhood friend thing. There's plenty more,
obviously, but that's kind of their setup of
archetype. But basically, I think I would have
said Asuka's the best girl. Yeah. I first saw
Evangelion like 10 years ago. She's the best
character on the show, period. Oh, yeah. I would
have been like, Asuka's my girl. Although, Masada's
a great character, too. Because I'm fucked up
and I'm attached to the damaged goods, and maybe
I can fix her. Yeah, but like, who's more damaged
than Rey? Really? Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah,
but Rey's also just not a person. Asuka's just
real. Asuka's just real. Like, everybody in that
show has those problems. It's just that, like,
Asuka, you can actually, like, she's dealing
with them. She talks about them. Yeah, she talks
about them. She's an extrovert in that way or
whatever. Oh, I love Asuka. Rey does not have
that. Misato does, though. It's just that Misato
is kind of distanced from us. I just think that
the views that we get into her, like the episode
where she goes on the date with Kaji and she
gets drunk and pukes in the back alley is so
revealing. I don't know. It's really sad. But
it also feels really real. She's not really expecting
more than she... At my age now, man, Misato's
the girl. I love Misato. She's the best. I wonder
who's a Ritsuko person. Nobody. Feel bad for
Ritsuko. There are plenty of people online who
say they're Ritsuko. Lesbians. Maybe. Lesbians.
And I don't say that with any judgment at all.
I totally get it. She's... I'm going to say way
too much. I'm going to let it go there. No, but
there is a certain male authoritarian butchness
to Ritsuko. And her interests are very male and
coding and blah, blah, blah, whatever it is.
Well, she's less repentant about her authoritarianism.
You know what I mean? Like, there's, like, I
think of Masato really as, like, I said it earlier,
but, like, PMC. Someone who is, like, absolutely
dedicated to... the mission, even though they're
not entirely sure what the mission is. Ritsuko
is someone who's like, I don't give a fuck what
it is. It gives me power. It gives me an edge.
And, like, doing the thing that gives me power
is the thing I like. And, I don't know. A woman
like that is just far too strong for me. But
I think it also has a lot to do with Akari, too.
Because she's, you know, Akari is her... kaji
to oscar the older guy that was it was fucking
her mom but she really wanted and then eventually
got to fuck and then but it's one of those things
where you can get why mazotto likes kaji he's
charming and cool but if you like someone like
akari you're kind of the devil you know like
She's damaged as fuck. Of course she is. Ritsuko
knows exactly what happened to her mom and what
Rei is and all this stuff. Ritsuko is totally
trapped. Actually, she doesn't really know everything
because in the end she's asking Ikari something
that she doesn't get an answer to in the final
movie. But she knows almost everything. Well,
and her hope is false hope, perpetually, in a
way that almost no one else's is. In the end
of Evangelion, Gendo says, like, one final thing
to Ritsuko, but it's like, you don't hear it.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. There's
no sound. And then she says, liar. Yeah. But
she likes what she heard. You can tell that,
like, she smiles and starts to tear up. And then
she says, liar. And then he shoots her. In the
manga, he straight up just says that he loves
her. And then she says, liar. So Sanamoto, like,
just filled that in or whatever. But Anno did
not want to give us that. that moment of that
cathartic moment. Yeah. Yeah. But also like,
could you imagine hearing Jendo say that to begin
with? That's like, it's almost like, yeah. Nobody
says I love you to anybody in this show. That's
the thing. It's like, say the, like using those
words, like that is a strong thing to say to
a person in this reality. Yep. Those are like
the. The strongest words. I mean, that's a perfect
encapsulation of fascism, though, right? Like
where it's a world of repression where we all
recognize our impulses, but we can't articulate
any of them. I guess I think that's another reason
why I like Asuka so much. Like you said earlier,
it's like she's an extrovert. She wears her emotions
on her sleeve. Yeah. But at the same time, though,
those aren't always her real emotions. No, she's
a 14 -year -old girl. Yeah, and she's constantly
projecting and analyzing those projections. I
mean, she's constantly, like, giving Shinji shit
and calling him an idiot. And, like, all of that
is to mask the fact that she's attracted to him.
She likes him. And she's in competition with
him. She says that, though. She sometimes says,
like, you know, I hate all of you, I hate all
of you, but who do I hate most? I hate me. And
it's like... Yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense.
She's no idiot, but, yeah, her intelligence is
what makes her so fucked up and, like, confused.
I mean, she's what? Like, I forgot, like, what
they said her credentials are, basically, but
she's, like, a 14 -year -old who's already been
through college and has, like, a PhD or some
shit, can speak, like, seven languages. But,
you know, like, after COVID, college really lowered
the standards, and I would bet after Second Impact
they lowered it even further. You know what I
mean? Who knows what type of college she went
to that was graduating Oscar. It still seemed
to be an accomplishment, but then it's also like,
why is she back in school then? Like, what grade
is Shinji in? Right, right. I'm like, what is
this? It's just like, that's what this archetype
is. But to be fair, we never ever see class.
Ever. No, we do the one time when he's lying
to them about Second Impact in the first episode.
Oh, that's a good point. Other than that, other
than the one lie we hear. It's a re -education
camp. It's not school. Yeah. It's a concentration
camp for magical children. It's a waiting room
for kids who are waiting to become paper pilots
because their parents have been killed. It's
Hogwarts. Yeah, it's Hogwarts. It's not a real
school. It's just there to, yeah. But like, are
there real schools anywhere? Like, what does
the rest of the world look like in Evangelion?
We never see anywhere outside of Tokyo. Tokyo
3 is incredibly dead in the show. Yeah, yeah.
Everyone has to be elsewhere, but like, what
do those cities look like? It doesn't make any
sense that anybody would live there. I saw one
piece of art from the manga on a Reddit page
where 9 -11 happened after the second impact,
and I thought that was pretty funny. so that's
my understanding of what's happening in the world
it's just like well they still did 9 -11 so I
don't know also the first impact was literally
a celestial body hitting the earth Or at least
this is the explanation in the manga. It was
the white moon and black moon thing, right? With
Lilith's white moon and Adam's black moon. They
create the cavern that Nerv exists in. I can't
remember if it's the black or white. I think
it's the black moon that Lilith is. Lilith is
the black moon. Lilith came from some other world.
Adam was native to Earth. But in the Bible, Lilith's
only from the Dead Sea Scrolls. But it's kind
of like Lilith is, you know, in the Bible they
say, like, God created man. And then later they
say, like, God created Adam and Eve and stuff.
Like, you know what I mean? He creates all the
things. Like, everything happens twice in the
Bible. Like, so theoretically, like, Lilith has
to do with that original incarnation of creating
man or whatever. And is, like, the patron saint
of wet dreams and shit. Like, according to the
Dead Sea Scroll. Like, it's all, like, weird
Christian apocrypha stuff. I don't think this
white moon, black moon shit matters at all. Like,
I think it's... All of this stuff is very fun.
Like, trying to figure out what Kaji was doing
at any point in the series is very fun. And I
like re -watching it being like, oh, fuck, what's
he... But it's because you never actually figure
it out. Like, it's because there's no actual
thing. Like, and that's what's so great about
the series is, like, it's like, dude, just so
you know, there's no thing. We're just, like,
this is what it is. Like... When Kaji's off screen,
everybody should be asking, where's Kaji? he's
growing his watermelons man yeah he's a melon
farmer but it's just like growing watermelons
like on the horizon of a fucking giant mech battle
perpetually i find that very funny well not not
perpetually it's in the geo front so it that
does get breached in like one of the last that's
a good bites right right yeah the the battle
i think it's the battle where ray dies It might
even be the second -to -last angel, because the
last one's Kwaru. It is. But I think that's the
one where they're fighting in the Geo front,
and Rei sacrifices herself. Right. And, like,
Shinji's, like, not piloting the Eve at first,
and then, like, he's down there, and Kwaru's
just out there tending to his watermelons as
this fucking battle's going on. He's like, all
I can do is take care of my watermelons, but
you, Shinji, there's something you can do. And
he's playing him, too. He's just another fucking...
Handler. Every single person. It's so weird because
it never feels like Shang -Chi really does have
a choice. But then the end of the show is kind
of like, you always have a choice. It's a matter
of perspective. But it's true. The thing about
the end of the show that I think works so well
for me is the conversation that happens in the
first episode. It talks about... You know, everything
that's been happening and where all these people
are and their relationships to each other and
the me that exists in your head and the you that
exists in my head and all that stuff. And then
the last episode is really just like Shinji just
being like, but I'm sad. And they're like, yeah,
but you don't have to be. He's like, yeah, but
I hate myself. They're like, okay, why? Like,
why don't you, you could find meaning here, you
could find meaning there. And he's like, yeah,
but I hate myself. And he's like, yeah, but like,
what about all this? And he's like, but I hate
myself. Until it just becomes like, dude, this
is just a mantra. Like, this is just, there's
nothing connected to this other than I hate myself.
That's the only thing you need to get rid of.
Literally, it's just that you keep coming back
to this thing that actually doesn't have any
connection to any of these ideas anymore. You
can't say why you hate yourself. You can't explain
why you're sad. It's just that you're choosing
to be in this horrible world where a girl getting
her period is not just like, oh, cute, she's
growing up, she got her period. Oh, maybe she'll
get red on her pants. Who the fuck says cute?
I don't know. Turning red. It's not just like
some thing of like, oh, we're growing up and
things or whatever. It's like... uh this might
be embarrassing for you instead it's like oscar's
deteriorating in a bathtub muttering about her
dead mother with her period blood smeared all
over like it just like thin as because she's
like dying because she's so depressed and whatever
it's like it could be like okay the girl's in
a bad mood or it could be like oh my god it's
the horrors of the body that we all go through
because we're all just like horrible monsters
of humans that are like like we're all avas that
are just like working with like i don't know
it's like the way of seeing the world in the
show is just so incredibly dark but there's no
need to be and like that's the whole him saying
over and over like i hate myself i hate myself
and i just be like dude but what if you just
like fine then don't be that person anymore but
yeah but i mean i think the hard thing is that
easy the hard thing is that shinji is a character
who has no capability for introspection at all
so like the thing is like i feel bad i don't
know why i feel bad and then what you come back
to is but i feel bad right yeah and but i think
it's only after like an hour of that conversation
happening you could just be like yeah but dude
you don't have to and then be like oh And it's
like, and it's not stupid. It's like, it's a
blind. I think that's like one of the bigger
themes of the show though, is that like, I mean
that like two steps forward, three steps backward
type of thing where it's like, oh, I've learned
something. And the revelation turns out to be
false where it ends up being like very quixotic
and it becomes impossible to enact any change
because too many things are happening. You know
what I mean? Totally. Or like too much damage
has already been done or something. I think like,
ano's initial intent with the show was to create
something where all the characters would start
off in a really bad place and then by the end
they would be better yeah that's what he said
like they would like learn to connect they would
like become a community like and that's what
the beginning of the show is is they're learning
to like shinji is learning to get along with
asuka and they have to sync up and it's like
a girl going on a date with a boy and it's like
it's all these like just learning to deal like
the second angel just looks like a giant penis
right that like shinji's dealing with like masculine
issues while the boy at school is beating him
up and like it's all of these things are just
learning to grow up stuff and then it totally
just ano's so depressed that he can't Like none
of those things make anything better. It is just
getting more and more into this, like, but I
hate myself, but everything is horrible, but
it is all about my mother being this thing. And
my father is making me do this. And I have no,
like, it's all so much darker. Well, things out
of Shinji's control start to get in the way a
little more halfway through the series. And him
being put up against Toji is like a really big
turning point. You know, things don't really
like recover from that point. yeah it just gets
worse and worse for everybody and like pretty
much every character is just like destroyed by
the end of the show and then like actually just
like murdered in the movie for the most part
but then in a postscript kind of way says life
goes on and like not even this most horrible
timeline needs to be it like it's like in the
end it's like everything you experience this
timeline is just as legit as any other timeline.
It's like also part of the reason why Evangelion
can just like have so many versions. Yeah. You
know, which we'll someday get into in another
episode, but yes, they're not all remakes of
the same thing. They're different. I think that's
why at the end of the show, there's that, there's
that other mantra. Cause like a lot of it is
just mantras and the, the shifting of the mantra
and whatever, but the, uh, The thing where he's
saying, this is the world you wished for. Like
specifically, you know, like this is the world
you wished for. So that's why all events went
the way they did. Because you had no hope and
you had no vision. Yeah, they're just talking
right to Anu. Yeah, you just had let things happen
to you. I'm not even talking to Shinji anymore.
Almost like passive self -determinism. But then
it's punctuated by the characters sort of like
remembering all these beautiful moments of warmth
and connection they had with people. A lot of
those moments are flashbacks of Misato's apartment.
You know, when they're all together there having
dinner together and Shinji's cooking food for
everybody. Yeah, the birthday party thing. I
think that montage at the end of the movie is...
One of the greatest montages in the history of
film. Like, when the music starts playing, you
know, it all comes tumbling down. And you see
all of the, like, the art done by sick kids.
Like, abused kids. It's, like, the fish head
and the, like, angry scribbles and all this,
like, stuff. I don't know if the fish head was
an abuse. But some of those things were from
some, like, psychology seminar with kids thing
or something. Like, you know what I mean? That
was, like, real fucked up, like. art that feels
sad you know what i mean and that all happening
while shinji's strangling asuka like is so like
it's insane it's like it like breaks my mind
or something there's something so insane about
it it's like such a super stimulus it's so like
negative and the song is so like ironically like
poppy or whatever i mean all the lyrics are just
like talking about suicide i don't know that
translates to the japanese audiences as much
as it does to us but that juxtaposition of that
music and just like the most horrifying like
end of times like the antichrist is rising and
we're seeing like the hate mail and like live
action people like it just it just becomes something
that is so pure art that I think it works outside
of the context of the film even completely. I
feel like you could not see any Evangelion or
anything and just watch that scene, and it's
like you have no idea what's happening, but there
is something that works there as a music video.
I don't know. Maybe that would just be a shallow
experience. But I think there's something so
cinematic about that. I think the vibes hit hard.
Like I said, I think I probably understand the
end of the movie even less than the end of the
show. Right. Like, the moment of Shinji choking
Asuka out, her putting her hand on his cheek
in this soft, gentle way, and then him... crying
on her face and then her saying disgusting like
it's or I'm sick or I feel sick or there's like
30 translations for that and the I like I feel
sick one has been interpreted as a pregnancy
thing like there's so many different ways people
have read into these yeah that's a tough that's
a tough thing also that's something the show
always played with the show doesn't use primarily
japanese language and a lot of it's like the
way it names things there's a lot of german yeah
and it like it has two titles for every episode
a japanese title and an english title i think
it's like somewhat aware of like translation
and how things can get lost in translation just
like plays with that a little bit just speaking
of the titles in translation the the last one
the beast that shouted I at the heart of the
world, or the beast that shouted love at the
heart of the world, depending on how it's translated.
Have you ever read that story? You know that
story? No. It's a Harlan Ellison short story.
And it's like... It's like very abstract and
very weird, but it's kind of about this idea
of eternal evil or something. And there's stuff
happening in the future with like some scientific
society, like science fiction society that like
all has names for stuff that we don't understand
or anything like, you know what I mean? It's
very abstract. But at the same time as all that
stuff, there's like a story of a guy on Earth
who one day he like. Packs up his mom's book
bag with like a bunch of explosives, sends her
off on a plane, blows up the plane in the sky
and like enjoys the ashes of his mother falling
down on him. And then later that day, he goes
to a football stadium with a bunch of guns and
opens up fire on the whole crowd and whatever.
It's a really fucking nuts, disturbing story.
And the science fiction element of it, they're
like juxtaposition of like this. like it's almost
the the end of evangelion montage vibe like it's
a it's a really surrealist like thing juxtaposed
with just like this horrible violent like mass
mass violence um episode which again like really
makes me think about Anno and The End and the
connection to Om Shinrikyo and like what that
may have what that title may have been for or
what it may not have been for you know what I
mean there's something very interesting about
about that and when they translated it to from
the ADV dubs they like changed the title to The
Beast That Shouted I at the Heart of the World
in order to like I don't know. Matt Greenfield
was on a DVD explaining why at some point. I
forget. But he had some high -minded idea about
it. The ADV translations are much better. At
least the dub is much better to listen to. It's
much more natural. But it's not necessarily...
They take artistic license with it occasionally,
you know what I mean? So it sounds much more
natural, but it's maybe less accurate than other
translations, like the Netflix translation or
something. When I started rewatching this time,
I tried watching the Netflix translation, and
I just, like, I could not do it. It really feels
like they're not actually translating. the show,
they just got somebody who didn't speak Japanese
to do a new translation for them who just went
and watched the other show in English and changed
a couple of words. They just make all of the
sentences reversed instead of being like, oh,
there he is over there. It's like, over there
is where he is. You know what I mean? All of
the things just feel like the unnatural way to
say something very simple. Josh, how did you
watch it? Did you watch it on Netflix? I watched
it. Mike gave me discs. I had to watch the third
and fourth disc. are weirdly the same episodes.
Yeah, but there's the regular episodes and the
director's cut. Ah, okay. So what I did was for
those episodes that I thought I was missing,
I watched the Netflix ones. But yeah, I did that
twice. And then I watched the movie on Netflix,
so I guess I should have. not done that. The
movie, I think, is probably better than the show
as far as the awkwardness of the translation.
But I don't really know because I have not been
able to get through. They're very awkward. And
the voiceovers, the English dubbing is terrible.
It's really... I'm subs only. Okay, subs only.
I did subs this time too. When I was a middle
schooler, I did the dub all the time and whatever.
And the ADV dub is not bad. The ADV dub is very
watchable. I like the ADV dub. They do a good
job. It's emotionally real. I generally watch
the show with the ADV dub. But this time I watched
the movie with subs and the end of Evangelion.
They put effort into it back then because that
was what their company was focused on. This one
was just Netflix was like, oh, we can't get the
rights unless we pay you how much? No, we'll
do it ourselves. Is that what happened? Yeah.
I mean, also, ADV went under and nobody really
knew where the rights were to the actual translation.
So they've been out of print for many, many years
until Netflix came out with it again. And they
had to do a whole new dub because they didn't
have the rights to the ADV stuff. Interesting.
And they also didn't have the rights to the final
closing music, which is not on any of these releases.
It should be Fly Me to the Moon at the end of
every episode. And they're sung by different
members of the cast a bunch of the time, too,
in different versions. Fly Me to the Moon is
on the discs. It is on the discs, yeah. I got
some really good bootleg Blu -rays that had several
translations. Yeah, I watched through the entire
show on Netflix once. because yeah i think at
the time it had just been added to netflix and
i didn't have access to it otherwise and i was
like awesome and i like started watching it with
my girlfriend at the time or something but yeah
it's like even for a person who hasn't seen the
show like a million times like stuff was standing
out to me it's just it's very unnatural is the
problem really weird it's i don't remember being
like that but they did a very bad job and it's
misrepresenting the show but They also theoretically
made Kwaru less gay. That was the big controversy.
I think we watched the whole thing with subs
on Netflix. But they took out the I love you
Shinji, right? I don't know. Yeah, I think they
changed I love you Kwaru saying to Shinji that
he loved him. I'm pretty sure they changed that
to like I like you. Like there's some part that
they... Of the Kawaru situation. I'm pretty sure
it's that. I think he doesn't say I love you
anymore. I think you are correct. Yeah. I think
you are correct about that, that he says, because
I like you, Shinji. Yeah. And no, like, the thing
is, the translation is strange because the word
that they use in Japanese apparently can mean
both. And it's not necessarily a romantic type
of love word, blah, blah, blah. And when they
did this translation, this whole new Netflix
translation was overseen by Studio Kahara. who
is the studio that's making all the new Alien
Alien movies. It's what Gainax, the new company
Anno made after Gainax and stuff. But there was
controversy about that, and I'm pretty sure it
was Anno himself or at least some representative
of the studio of Colorado who was like, nah,
dude, this is not gay. You guys... We're not
into that gay shit. This is just two boys in
a fucking shower playing with each other and
telling them that they love each other. I mean,
not in a gay way. There was a response in America
that was like, oh, this gay erasure thing or
whatever, and they responded to that being like,
no, no, no, you fucking anime faggots. What the
fuck are you thinking? This is just two boys.
Yeah, and Sadamoto actually responds to that
in the manga. Oh, does he? In a pretty visceral
way. Like, Kasada Moto, like... Not into that
gay shit? Yeah, he's not into that gay shit.
I think even in some of his, like, liner notes
that happen between volumes and stuff, it's very
clear that, like, homosexuality is weird to him.
Yeah. And there's, like, a... Japanese are not
a super... The Kwaru thing is one of the biggest
differences in the manga, which I'm glad got
brought up, because I almost... Almost didn't
talk about it. There's a really great scene where
he kills a cat, right? That I always think about.
Yeah, so Kwaru basically, like, as you know,
in the show, Kwaru's entire arc is in one episode.
He shows up, he's introduced at the beginning
of an episode, and then by the end of the episode,
he's killed. And he's, like, one of the most
popular characters in the merchandising of the
show, period. Maybe the most popular. Or maybe
really, I don't know. And then there is this
whole... angle with like just how quickly shinji
sort of falls for him and the weird bromance
nature of it and um so sadamota's version of
kwaru in the manga is almost like he's a sociopath
he's a sociopath he's an edgelord he's kind of
like not likable but he's also how angels are
in the bible angels don't have morality sure
exactly although that's from the tree of knowledge
Anyway, when it comes to the cat thing, Shinji
finds, like, a sick cat on the road, and, like,
he, like, gives it some food or something, or,
like, he pets it, and the cat starts following
him. So I think Shinji's, like, doesn't really
want to commit to helping this cat, but kind
of hopes that somebody will. And Kaworu shows
up, and Kaworu kills this cat with his bare hands.
He, like, snaps his neck or whatever. And Shinji's
just, like, horrified. It's like, why would you
do that? And he's like, well, you weren't going
to take care of it. There wasn't anybody else
that was going to come take care of it. So it
would have just like had this miserable sickness
and died within a week. And so what I'm doing
is more of a kindness. It's angelic. Yeah. So
Shinji like basically doesn't like Kwaru in the
manga. He's very uncomfortable with him. He doesn't
like that Kwaru has no like personal boundaries
and stuff like that. And there is a scene where
Kwaru comes into the shower while Shinji's in
there. And it makes Shinji really uncomfortable.
And he gets really close to Shinji. And he even,
like, does make a pass at him. Tries to make
out with him or something like that. And Shinji's
like, boys, don't do that. And, like, get away
from me and whatever. And he straight up says,
like, I don't like you. Kwaru's just like, why,
man? I don't get it. And then, you know, Kwaru
and Rei have a little weird thing. Because, like,
they're essentially the same, but they're different.
Because Kwaru... He's apparently like he was
the last angel that was born. And he like was
born during the second impact. He was like the
final product of Adam in his final moments or
something like that. And then Sele immediately
took control of Kwaru. And so Kwaru has always
been like their ray, their kind of like secret
back pocket tool for instrumentality or whatever.
And he's also the basis of the dummy plug system
for the Eva series with the S2 engines. Okay.
Because you can see Kwaru's name written on their
dummy plugs that go in. That makes sense. It's
also why they're Kwaru colored. Yeah, exactly.
So yeah, Kwaru shows up a lot earlier in the
manga, and he's actually involved that battle
that we mentioned earlier that happens in the
Geo front where Rei sacrifices herself. Kwaru
is involved in that battle and has his own Eva.
He's a fellow pilot. In the manga. He's a fellow
pilot. He also gets, like, penetrated by, like,
the beam of light. So him and Rey get, like,
their souls connected during the battle, and
he feels all of Rey's feelings. And that, like,
does something. That basically is what happens
at the end of the movie, too, kind of, right?
Yeah. Because the Eva series and... ray come
together and then it's the big ray looking at
shinji in the ava and then it's like oh wait
no would this be better and she turns into quaru
and shinji's like oh quaru and then he penetrates
him no that's true that does happen in the end
they are they are one at that point and yeah
like the giant ray terrifies shinji and the quaru
he finds super comforting and whatever yeah and
then penetrates him Yeah, because Shinji's never
had... In the manga, his relationship with Rei
is closer, but in the show, it's still very distant
and alien, and Rei's weird with him. The only
thing that happens is he saves her from the hatch,
just like his father, and tells her to smile.
Right. Which girls fucking love. Yeah, tell them
to smile. I don't know what to do in a situation
like this. Well, maybe you should fucking smile.
But yeah, so Kaworu is like around longer in
the manga, develops a little bit more of a relationship
with the other characters, you know, becomes
like, you know, Misato's trying to figure out
who the hell he is. But in the end, he's less
gay. Well, it sounds like he's more gay. I mean,
he actually tries to make a pass at Shinji in
the manga. Yeah, he's more gay. Okay. Shinji's
coded less gay. But Shinji's like, no fucking
way, dude. Get away from me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so... When the same thing happens where Kwaru
takes control of Unit 2 and starts to go to Central
Dogma to connect with Lilith. It's the same kind
of ending where Kwaru decides that he wants Shinji
to kill him instead of ending humanity. And so
that scene just ends up playing out a little
bit more, slightly more complicated because Shinji
didn't really like him to begin with. He was
just kind of creeped out by him. It's such an
interesting way to revisit the series and just
be like, but the one thing I'm going to do is...
Fuck that gay shit. I'm keeping everything exactly
the same, but Shinji was way too gay. We're going
to make it very clear that Shinji's not gay.
Shinji is my vector. I mean, that's also like
I was saying in the movie, when it changes from
Rei to Kwaru and then he penetrates in his chest,
in his S2 engine. That also seems to be kind
of like a fuck you defense. You know what I mean?
It seems like if you were homophobic, that would
be the homophobic way to be like, you know, I
don't know. No? It's just like Shinji jerking
off into his hand and being like, I'm so fucked
up. It's like Shinji being presented with a woman
and then being like, no, the man can penetrate
me. It's like, uh, it's a little guy. I don't
know that it's a sweet moment. In the manga,
the AT field means anti -trans. And there's that
clear in the manga. What does it actually mean?
Is it absolute terror field? That's what they
say in the American translation, at least. I
assume that's what it is in Japanese, but it's
a dumb word. There's a lot of it. Some of the
translation stuff is stuff that is in English.
It's like the same with like just the idea of
angels in general. Like I think that we're kind
of, I've been watching Evangelion for so long,
I'm kind of used to it, but I feel like as a
Western audience, we should see people killing
angels and be like, oh, they're the bad guys.
You know what I mean? That should just be like
a very clear thing from the start. And I think
that a Japanese audience might just be like,
well, angels isn't really a thing that we, like
angels is a Western idea of a religious thing
and blah, blah, blah. So it's like another word
for aliens or something or whatever. And then
it turns out, no, no, we're actually saying they're
the bad guys. Yeah, I don't know. I think when
you translate that, it becomes kind of more obvious
because they're using our archetypes that we're
more familiar with. The humans are the bad guys.
Shinji in the show is supposed to be the first
children. You know what I mean? Yeah, the first
children. Yeah, it's the first children, the
second children, the third children. So there's
some plurality to it that doesn't really make
sense unless they're talking about the Christ
figure, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the Mother,
Son, Ava, Unit. They are the children together.
They become the children. I mean, the humans
are the bad guys because if Adam... And the angels
were the rightful heirs to planet Earth and whatever.
Lilith is like this invading body that came down
and produced only one offspring, humanity, that
destroys every single angel. But that's a tree
of life, tree of knowledge. You know what I mean?
It's a tree of life, tree of knowledge. The angels
have always been jealous of the human because
they got the tree of knowledge. yada yada it
is christian symbolism like i i kind of hate
when people talk about this and be like well
honor doesn't know christianity they don't have
christianity in japan that's he's just they fucking
they got christianity in japan and he is using
christian symbolism in a cool way like he is
looking at dead sea scroll so i think that a
lot of it is like A lot of the other things in
the movie, like in the show or the movie. It's
a lot of apocrypha. Why is the mom also Rey,
also the Ava, also the S2, also the thing? Many
of these things are just like, well, they don't
really make sense in the end. But I don't think
that he's just using random Western symbols.
I don't think he's using the Tree of Life for
no reason. I think it's just like, but when you
get into the specifics of where Gendo's sitting
and what that actually means, maybe there's something
there. But I don't think he's... This is not
Jodorowsky. Like dealing with like ancient alchemist
symbols. Like this is an anime guy, for instance.
I mean, I think it's interesting that the fruit
of the tree of life, the angels, are these incredibly
unique, powerful, magical beings. And the only
way... I'm talking about the tree of life from
the Kabbalah, like the symbol that Anno is standing
on in his office. Sure, sure. Both trees of life,
but yeah. That Gendo is standing on, yeah. Oh
yeah, Gendo, yeah, same thing. But the only way
the humans compete with those angels is by essentially
using the skills they have from the tree of knowledge
to co -opt an angel and use it as their plaything.
Because the Avas are from Adam. They're related
to the angels, not humans. But they are biological
angels. that we've like used technology to control
and then imbued with a human soul. Like it's
like so repulsive in a weird way. I mean, it's
playing God in a way that is viscerally gross.
Yeah. Yeah. And then, and yeah, like that's what
makes, especially, I mean, the first time you
see it, it's super fucking weird, but it's always
been disturbing. Just like the reveals in the
show where like the hand armor burns off and
you see, like, just human hands underneath the
armor. Or, like, when he kills Toji and rips
him apart and how just violently gory that is
and how, like, organs are being ripped out and
stuff like that. I mean, this is also, like,
this is one of the things that Eva was doing
that was new. Like, Ana was interviewed early
on about, like, why he would make a mecha show
or whatever, and he was like, oh, it was interesting
to me to make a mecha show that nobody would
want to make toys of. Because at the time, like,
the Eva was so not the idea of a mecha. There
are no boxy, like, parts that look like a tank
or whatever. It actually just is kind of a humanoid
thing that's much closer to, like, an Ultraman
or something, which is, like, Honor's favorite
show. It's also more feminine. It's also more
feminine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sleek and curvy
and whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of these
are, like, again, it's just, it is a symbol that
he's... doing kind of the opposite of and turning
on its head and like we don't even see that now
because like in america like i watched evangelion
long before i ever saw a gundam or anything like
but It is a subversion of the archetype to have
an Ava that even looks like that, and then to
have it actually be organic on the inside and
whatever, and have it, like, the technology itself
is not the thing. It's actually magic, even though
it's a, like, there's a whole divide between
the real robot and magical robot shows and stuff,
and a show is one or the other, and Ava starts
pretending that it's one and becomes another,
but then it's actually a science fiction version
of that because it's not really magical. It's
actually just your mother being mutilated for,
like, this. You know what I mean? Well, it is
sci -fi. It's a creature that was created in
a laboratory, essentially, using the embryo of
a god, essentially, and then fitted with a bunch
of restraints and then imbued with a human personality.
I also love when the fucking Avas are attacking
them. Like, every time they freak out and, like,
start attacking Gendo, it just feels like, dude,
Wifey's mad, bro. And he's just standing there
like, fuck. Damn it. Turn her off, I guess. It's
like what happens right before the show starts
is, like, Ray gets hurt because Unit Zero has,
like, a freakout. Right. And starts, like, punching
the windows and then starts bashing its face
into the wall. But maybe it's trying to attack
Ritsuko. because she's fucking Gendo, and wifey's
jealous. There's so many, yeah. But it is, like,
I do love when the Evas just, like, are suddenly
like, oh, no, that's just a woman, like, who's
fucking pissed, and they're going to shut her
down real quick. Yeah, it's like a really, really,
it shows, like, this animalistic nature. Yeah,
yeah. Like, motherhood and... Well, being able
to lift a car off of your son is kind of part
of the main idea. And the Magi really reflects
that, too, where each part of the Magi is a different
part of her mother's psyche or her three identities,
her as a woman, her as a mother, her as a scientist.
Do you guys remember which one Casper is that
denies her? Yeah. That chooses her as a woman?
Yeah. Yeah, she goes for Gendo, bro. She chose
Gendo over her daughter. It's so devastating.
She's standing there with her thing and she clicked
the button and she's just like, are you fucking
serious? Because I fucked him. And then Gendo
gives her nothing and kills her. It's so vicious,
dude. Everybody has the worst endings. Does it
feel good? Yeah. Is that what you wanted? Is
this what you wanted to see? Yeah. Misato gets
killed by a stray bullet, pretty anticlimactic.
Well, I mean, she also gets totally taken out
by the M2 mines. I was going to say, the fucking
earth explodes underneath her. Yeah, they're
destroying parts of her. That's true. That's
actually different in the manga, too. Sadamoto
has her kill herself with a grenade when the
guys come in. Okay. Kind of cliche. No kamikaze
going on. well we're over three hours josh how
do you feel about this this whole conversation
i feel like in a lot of ways we've been like
well i think part of the thing is here like we've
just been a lot of people come to evangelion
when they're like the age of the characters you
know i mean like i came to evangelion as a 14
year old who was super depressed and like was
having trouble like going to school and like
you know what i mean just like being a person
piloting behavior whatever um and found a lot
to relate to in the show like it is talking to
a 14 year old and it's trying to kind of help
a 14 year old through the process of like understanding
that like you know the world is like a lot shittier
of a play and if you're smart like you're starting
to realize like all the people that have been
guiding you like they don't really they're just
miserable people of their own. Like, you know
what I mean? Like everybody has their own shit.
You're kind of, I don't know. It's just, it's
just coming to terms with reality stuff that
I think is a big thing when you're that age.
But I like watching it again, I kind of just
feel like a lot of that is so universal that
it's just kind of like, so I think kind of like
the question is like, why, why do you think the
show is such a incredibly popular and like, it's
like the number one anime in the West. It's number
one in Japan. Um, many, many times over what
a cat, like, what accounts for the popularity
of this other than two 14 year old boys? Well,
I think, I think like what I got from it, especially
as like an outsider. And I mean, I was, I don't
want to say I was handed it as homework effectively,
but it was like, Hey, you haven't seen this thing.
Check this thing out. And I mean, I remember
when it came out on Netflix, I had like a coworker
who was just like, have you seen this thing?
And you know, my age, I'm in my. you know late
30s now it's like have you seen this thing and
i was like no i don't know what this thing is
and he was like dude you have to see it and then
i had a handful of people saying the same thing
and i so my entree into it was like okay this
is a thing that looks like it's for children
but it's for adults and it's after having watched
it twice now it's it's not it's i mean it is
for adults like i do as a father of five fucking
children like i do relate to Gendo like I do
I relate to the control he wants to have over
the people in his life like there's a very much
like hate me now love me later type of approach
to parenting that he has where it's like you
won't you don't appreciate the severity of my
approach but in you know when you are me you
will be fortified to be the thing you need to
be to deal with the world but I think like as
someone who frequently tries and fails at parenting
that way. That's where the kid's mentality kicks
in. It's where seeing the petulance of someone
like Shinji, it comes off as incredibly authentic.
That myopia, that constant anxiety, that is how
kids feel. That is how it is. That's how it feels
to be a kid and deal with a parent who is domineering.
What you want... at any given time is the thing
that you are not getting. And like from Gendo's
approach where it's like, no, I have to create
a system under which you can always thrive. And
what the show inevitably proves is like, no,
that's the only way that's proven to destroy
a child. So I guess when you ask like, who is
it for? It's for everybody. Like I, I absolutely
100 % want to show it to the 15 and 14 year old
in my house and be like, you guys, I get it.
I was this kid and you are now this kid. And
I'm sorry, sometimes I'm this guy. But from the
perspective of like... someone coming to it so
late the thing I struggled with was that I had
such a hard time getting into that emotional
headspace getting into Shinji's emotional headspace
even though I feel many of the things he feels
to this day as an adult the petulance rings out
over everything like I really I feel like Asuka
where it's like you fucking idiot get your shit
together yes get over this little thing ignore
the voice inside of your head that says that
you're not good enough and yeah that's so interesting
man To bridge the gap between that and Otaku
No Video, it's like, yeah, I relate to the adult
who looks at this type of content and goes, like,
who is this for? This is for people who don't
want to get better. I feel like Asuka, you know?
But, okay, if you want to live in this world
where you're surrounded by your fucking hardware,
go nuts. But that's an empty way to live a life.
And, I mean, like, that's very much from the
point of view as, like, someone who was never
in it, you know? That's so interesting, man,
because, like, I mean, I only have one kid. And
he's not even two yet. So maybe I'll relate more
to Gendo in later years or something. But what's
so funny to me is that when I first saw Evangelion,
when I was like, I don't know, I can't really
remember. I might have been like 16 or 17. Because,
Mike, you showed it to me initially. So whenever
we first watched it together. When we were working
at the theater. When we were working at the theater
or whatever. So 16, something like that. At that
time, I found Shinji to be a very annoying character.
Interesting. I really disliked his petulance.
I felt the same way about Shinji as I did, like,
holding Caulfield. Like, I didn't like holding
Caulfield. I thought he was annoying and he was
just, like, bitching. Okay. And it's just super
bizarre that, like, I didn't find these characters
relatable when I was younger. But, like... As
I got older, I reread Catcher in the Rye in my
early 30s or something, and I loved it. I just
thought Holden Caulfield made so much sense and
stuff like that. And then I watch Evangelion,
and Shinji doesn't annoy me anymore. I don't
know why. I just find him to be deeply empathetic.
We talked about this a little bit during our
Kevin Smith episode, but in Chasing Amy, basically,
like Holden. Holden and Chasing Amy and his relationship
to Alyssa Jones he is so cringy and embarrassing
that like when I watched that When I watched
that as a middle schooler, I was on his side
or whatever. When I watched that as a high schooler
or college kid or whatever, I was like, this
guy fucking sucks. I hate this guy. This movie
doesn't... This sucks. This did not age well.
But watching it as an adult, it's like, oh man,
this is such a perfect encapsulation of that
anxiety. It is an immaturness, but that is a
depiction of an immaturness that is so powerful.
And I think that's probably similar to Shinji,
where it's like, like, dude, you can relate to
Shinji because you were Shinji. You have to be
like, okay, okay, now that I know that I was
Shinji, I can have some empathy for Shinji. But
at the time, you hated yourself and you hated
Shinji. Yeah, exactly. I was like any other otaku
who gets annoyed at having the mirror put up
to them. And yeah, I mean, at that time, when
I was younger, I was... interested in a lot of
things but you could describe me as so much more
of an otaku at that time because my interests
were driven by very kind of like weird perversions
or whatever just like weird specific things you
get into for dance dance revolution yeah like
dance dance revolution exactly and all those
goth kids or or even like you know my whole introduction
into anime is that like i was always into animation
as a kid And like I said in the previous episode,
I spent a lot of time learning how to animate
and going to classes for that kind of thing and
stuff. I loved animation as a kid and was a big
fan of Disney movies and Don Bluth movies and
all kinds of American animation. But I never
really got into anime until I met Mike. And even
then, I've never really become super into anime.
It's just like there are so many good ones and
so many... So many that are worth watching as
someone who's into animation and cinema. And
I think, like, I remember being a kid and, like,
probably my earliest introduction to anime was,
like, Miyazaki. Like, a lot of Westerners. I'd
seen My Neighbor Totoro as a, you know, child
or whatever. I think I saw Spirited Away in theaters
because my stepdad brought me. I had no kind
of, like, interest. I got taken to this little
anime showcase at a film festival in 2003 or
2004 or something like that. And I'm pretty sure
every single anime they showed was Gainax. Okay.
I think they showed five animes, and I can't
remember what all of them were. But I know they
played the first episode of Evangelion, the first
episode of His and Her Circumstances, the first
episode of Mahoramatic, Automatic Maiden. And
then I think the fourth one was the first episode
of FLCL. Can't remember the fifth, but mostly
Gainax. Yeah, just the idea that Gainax, they're
the ones. They're the ones who created the body
of work in a relatively short period of time
at the right time that made anime mainstream
and created a handful of seminal works that are
considered some of the greatest animes to this
day. mahora matic is not one of those but like
when i was a you know perverted horny 14 year
old or whatever it was when i saw these animes
the one that stood out to me most was more there's
a sexy maid doll yeah because it was uh appealing
to my perversions yeah i mean i don't know the
like some of the first anime i ever got into
was like emo girls that i hung out with were
into love hina So I read the Love Hina mangas,
and people got together and watched Love Hina
on DVD. It was totally cringey shit. That's a
harem show, right? Yeah, it's a harem show. It's
kind of like Mahoramatic. That's what I mean.
When I saw Mahoramatic, I've never seen any other
anime. It's a very cliched show. but like but
that's also a show that's like dealing with cliches
and archetypes and whatnot and it's like maybe
not dealing with them well but what i think is
like a lot of the anime that i've shown you over
the years or whatever and like that i've gotten
into too over the years has been anime that like
can stand kind of on its own outside of this
anime paradigm this otaku paradigm like I've
always been a big fan of Satoshi Kon, and people
that I show that to always love Satoshi Kon movies.
Many people can get into Miyazaki movies. These
are all kind of separate from the otaku paradigm.
What's interesting about Gainax movies, and specifically
Evangelion, is it's totally of that paradigm.
It's by otaku for otaku. Instead of being, like,
by a normal person for Otaku. Like, you know
what I mean? It's, these are the perverts who
are running the show now. And I think that is,
like, totally... Like, that's where the whole
culture is now. Like, we're all... Like, there's
a whole generation of people that have been brought
up on stuff the same way that the nerds at Gainax
were brought up on stuff and got involved. But,
like, that's the norm now. Feels very true to
me, too. You can just be, like, a huge fan of
Marvel movies or Star Wars or... Whatever it
is, all that stuff has all been around since
the 80s, but now it just has completely taken
over culture. There's a lot of this referential
stuff and use of these archetypes within these
things. don't make sense outside of the anime
paradigm like a lot of these shows like are just
not good outside of what they're trying to do
in fan service but i think that what's interesting
about evangelion is that it actually can use
all of those things and like be of that thing
but put it towards a real purpose um that's actually
like trying to tell people to get out of this
thing you know no for sure and i think that could
bring us to a place where We do just talk about
how a lot of this stuff wraps up and the importance
of the visionaries. You know, like Anno, I think
it's hard to argue with his auteur status, especially
because of, like, just the consistency and quality
of his work and the consistency of the themes
and so many of the, you know, aesthetics he likes
to use. And when you watch Love and Pop. and
um ritual and i mean even way more so with shin
godzilla that uses music cues and shit like and
is just a remake of the episode where they have
to power the the long distance rifle like sure
i mean and even doing like a godzilla movie at
all is just like completely leaning into the
beginnings as an otaku and just like wanting
to be a part of the fan culture and But he uses
it to a purpose. Like that movie is a great criticism
of like Japanese bureaucracy. Like one of the
best since like Kiryu or something. Yeah, Shin
Godzilla is awesome. It's so good. I love that
movie. And so it stands to reason that like Gainax
always needed a captain at the ship, right? So
what's interesting about where we're at now and
the possible future for Evangelion and whatever
is that like... Anno was one of the main creatives
to really be responsible for the success of Gainax,
their impact, their ability to fund a few other
important works of anime. But that it was clear
that without some kind of visionary, Gainax would
do what they did for most of their career, which
was kind of create garbage, apparently. I haven't
seen most of them. Yeah, like girl games and
shit. Like horny hentai girl games. Well, the
horny hentai girl games... Like Akai made those
back in the 80s. And that was like the only thing
bringing money into Gainax that kept them afloat
while they were like hemorrhaging money on Nadia
and all that stuff. Princess Maker is what it
was called. And it's a pretty creepy concept
of like raising a child into a woman who I think
you can make strip by the end or whatever. Sounds
like it would have been very popular. which became
the basis of one of the later Gainax animes during
their decline in Dark Period. But suffice to
say, the other thing that's important about Anno,
the only reason to bring up Gainax, is that Gainax
has been a studio just fraught with trouble and
issues the entire fucking time. And a really
nice, happy ending to the story of Anno is the
fact that in 2005, he went off to create Studio
Kara. Just continue to foster good relationships.
As a guy who talks so much about relationships
and all of his self -hatred, he seems like a
person everyone respects. He can continue having
good relationships with Gainax. He gets to make
the Evangelion reboot movies from 2006 to actually,
what, 2022 when the last one came out? It was
pretty recent. It's crazy. It took a long time
to come out in America. But I know also like
lent a huge amount of money to Gainax at one
point to bail them out alone. They never repaid
and stuff like that. And yeah, was always trying
to be really friendly with them. But Gainax was
mismanaged into the ground. Like it declared
bankruptcy in like 2023 or something or 20, maybe
even 2024. It was like not that long ago. But
Anno saved all of the trademarks of all of his
work and stuff. He negotiated a deal where, especially
because they had defaulted on the loan, they
didn't repay to him and stuff like that. He was
able to collect basically all of the Neon Genesis
Evangelion trademark. And so there's something
really, really nice about, in the end, Even though
the story of Gainax is so fraught that Studio
Kara exists, that Anno seems to be running a
really good company that's doing well and is
fair to its employees, that he owns his baby
and gets to do kind of whatever he wants. And
I think there's even a rumor that the famed lost
Gainax project, Uru and Blue, is going to be
made by Kara. The sequel to Royal Space Force
Animes. The Wings of Oniamis, yeah. So, yeah,
it's an interesting time for Evangelion, especially
still being as popular as ever. And we could
see many more versions of it. We could see many
more. Well, that seems to be the trend with any
anime is you come out with one successful series
and then you have like 30 reboots. It's the story
of Gundam or whatever, like Dragon Ball. But
yeah, they're not super disrespectful about.
Evangelion and yeah I guess like no I mean because
Anno still has control and that's I mean to me
you know the guy who did Gundam still had control
for a very long time and he he did continue a
story in a way that you know I haven't watched
all of but apparently I mean like on the same
trajectory Gainax could have like made an Evangelion
sequel or something without Anno's consent at
a certain point you know yeah but they didn't
And everything Evangelion is Anno's. I think
that Evangelion is connected to Anno and he's
connected to the fan community in a way that
he kind of is Evangelion. And Evangelion is him.
Not just artistically, but also culturally. And
he's become, since the show, now he's one of
the most well -known directors in Japan and stuff.
He's a thing. Not just of the otaku community.
Yeah, man. In general. And it seems like he's
in a good place these days. Well, maybe sometime
we'll talk about the reboots. The rebuilds. You
should check out the rebuilds. I absolutely will
check them out. Yeah, just on the strength of
the last four or five episodes of Neon Genesis
and the movie. I never even directly asked you,
so you did like it. You enjoyed it. Yeah, I was
talking to Mike a little bit earlier. That first
half is so tough for me. The archetypal thing
of establishing that this is a thing you recognize.
This is congruent with an entire history of a
genre. I really struggle with it. To the point
where, yeah. It makes it hard to recommend to
people, I think, is the problem with it. The
first half of Evangelion, if you're trying to
show somebody and be like, yeah, I know you don't
like, you don't want to watch a giant robot fucking
show with a bunch of kids. This turns into something
great. You should check this out. But you need
to sit there for, you know, eight hours first
before you get to. You have to experience the
subversion. It's important. Yeah. But. The type
of people who would enjoy it are not the type
of people who would watch the beginning of it
and not turn it off. You know what I mean? Totally.
And it's worth it all for End of Evangelion.
It's like you guys are both saying, like, visually,
it is truly cinematic. Fucking, I don't know,
I'll think of Eva Unit 2 resting on the Lance
of Longinus for forever. You know, it'll flash
before my fucking eyes when I die, you know?
Yeah, man. It's so heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking.
It rules. It just looks great. You know, I don't
know. It's like it was fucking handed down. It's
so well staged. It hits. It really, really hits.
Yeah, I completely agree. But yeah, I... Yeah,
B minus. No, I'm kidding. I would... It's really...
I think anyone who has even a passing interest
in not just the history of anime or the biggest
animes or whatever, but like... People with a
genuine cinematic interest, it's like, at the
very least, watch, like, what is it, Death True
2, and then watch the movie. When I watched Death
True 2, though, recently, I was like, this would
probably be totally incomprehensible. It's not.
No, I disagree. I don't think that's true. Okay.
Having watched it after I watched the series,
I was like, or after I watched it once back in
March, you know, smoking a bunch of pot and trying
to dig it, and then I watched it. with a notepad
next to me and i i thought after i watched death
true too i was like i should have just watched
this and then i should have watched the movie
again because it is it's a pretty solid it hits
all of the notes that are important the things
that we kind of were asking ourselves like Does,
you know, Gendo and Scylla, are they at odds?
That shit gets elided in Death True 2. I think
it's hard to tell whether or not it would make
sense if you've already seen the anime. Totally.
I think showing Death True 2 to someone blind
would be like... It's a lot to take in. It starts
with the incident in Antarctica, and then it
cuts to Shinji doing some violin, and then it
shows you the beginning when he fights the...
I mean, I guess it does kind of show you everything.
It does. It shows you all the angels. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. It is a really good recap. It's just a
weird pacing thing where you're not going to
feel like you're actually watching. Can I be
completely fair to you? I think the first eight
episodes of the show are also very weird pacing.
That's true. It might be a lot harder for people
to get through those eight episodes than to get
through the weird facing of the movie, but it
might be harder to dig it. Totally. And I think
the first time I watched the show, I definitely
agree. Like, I mean, when I saw the first episode
in that theater that one time, I had no interest
because basically nothing happens in the episode.
You know, it's like, it's very slow. It takes
a while to get through the first couple of plot
points or whatever. And then it just leads to
a giant robot battle. Yeah, it's a cool setup.
I like that. I do think when you finish the show
and you've seen End of Evangelion, when you go
back and rewatch the first few episodes, I do
think they play a lot better. And I do think
a lot of the moments that happen in them are
important and iconic and whatever. And there's
a lot of important thematic groundwork that's
being laid that either gets subverted or... explore
it in more depth later i think once asuka's arc
starts though they do that again anyway yeah
they relay all of that groundwork you know they
re -establish it and not in a way that is subversive
but in a way that is setting the stage for subversion
yeah i think i think you're right i think there
is a lot of treading water it's all of the mech
shit early on that is so tough that they're like
seven angels just the monster of the week yes
but what that is is fan service right you know
what i mean this is a company built on fan service
like the gun busters the first time they animated
jiggling boobs and shit like it's they're built
on fan service and so they're making a giant
robot show and so the payoffs like uh pacing
wise are like that this is a payoff and this
is exciting you them on the elevator you know
what i mean i i love the scenes of them like
yeah the domestic scenes with misato and stuff
and that's what like that's yeah that stuff is
in the first four episodes you know yeah but
it's they do it again they do it again and it's
great still and it's still more of the same shit
yeah it's they redo shit They do the whole thing
with all their classmates getting together after
that point. Totally. They didn't establish Shinji's
relationship to the other two boys, but you don't
need to because, like, yeah. But you spend so
much time with those other two boys where they're
just reacting the exact same way that Shinji
is. Right, right. And especially once they get
rid of fucking Toji, it really feels to me like,
okay, well, that was wasted time. Like, it doesn't
tell me anything about the characters. Toji becomes
a plot device in a way that, like, no other character
feels like a plot device in the second half.
Like, Asuka is absolutely essential to, like,
the deep themes of the show. Even, like, fucking
Fuyutsuki, you know what I mean? Like, he plays
a part in the subversive, you know, element in
a way that the two boys don't. And they eat up
so much more plot time than I think people remember.
Especially early on, yeah. Totally. Yeah, the
manga's paced a lot better. I think that a lot
of these things, like the pacing and the problems
of these characters that show up and don't end
up, like, all of that doesn't matter if the show
ends with just, oh, let's just drop all the threat.
Like, you know what I mean? All of that, I give
the show so much credit and forget all the things
that it did wrong because it's just like, oh,
I don't care about any of it anymore. Like, it
just... throws away the whole plot so it's like
i do forget about like if this was a show that
just ended normally or whatever then i'd be like
okay well this show the ending was good but the
beginning had all of this like but now it's just
like part of what ava is is this weird pacing
and like part of it is like you start off with
this very slow thing of trying to watch this
type of show and then it changes into this other
type of show and it's like yeah you don't need
to watch that first type of show actually it
would work fine if you just started just before
it changes but I give it the credit to have bad
pacing because it ends the way that it does.
That was the reality we almost entered, but we
shifted into a different reality. Right, right,
right. And Anno was in control of where that
reality shifted. Like it went from a monster
of the week to Anno's. And I think if you're
deeply versed in something like Gundam and it
has a similar format to Evangelion, those early
episodes probably feel, it adds like a kind of
meta. reverence and resonance he's also dealing
with archetypes there that western audiences
aren't picking up on he's totally like he's flipping
when he walks in on Ray in the room and he touches
the boob and whatever and then Ray all of that
is already turning archetypes on their heads
but like to us it just kind of feels like weird
shit happening you know what I mean and it feels
like it's just an anime and those are anime tropes,
and so it's annoying to watch. You know what
I mean? 100%. That's exactly how I feel. That's
the thing that's so hard to get people to watch
this show, because you're like, I know there's
going to be a point when Shinji grabs this girl's
boob, and panties fly in the air, and he looks
all embarrassed, and there's a big teardrop on
his head. I love the big teardrop, and I love
Pen Pen, and we've barely even talked about it.
Pen Pen's the best, dude. Pen Pen's the best
girl. Yeah, Pen Pen is the best girl. It's amazing
how Pen Pen, exist in this show at all. Totally
agree. You know who doesn't fucking die? Pen
Pen. We don't see Pen Pen die. It would have
been way too sad. I know. They just ignore Pen
Pen's instrumentality scene. It's not Emperor
Penguin instrumentality. It's human instrumentality.
It's true. Pen Pen lives on. I don't know. Would
you say that's it? Mattress man? I'd say that's
that.