WEBVTT 00:00:03.020 --> 00:00:05.599 See, I believe that all the mysteries of the 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:07.099 universe, all the answers to life's questions 00:00:07.099 --> 00:00:08.000 can be found in a Spielberg film. I've been afraid for 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.720 all of my life. Why doesn’t somebody just shoot 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:11.660 me in the head? Right up until the day I knew 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:14.679 my life was ending. You look bad. No, man. You 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:17.620 smell bad. I'm pretty fucking far from ok. Really, I 00:00:17.620 --> 00:00:20.839 feel like I'm sharing a very- Look at my shit. I had an affair.- precious moment 00:00:20.839 --> 00:00:25.100 with you. Are you threatening me, dick? You don't 00:00:25.100 --> 00:00:27.760 approve. Fake. Well, too bad. Totally fake. Did 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:30.820 it seem fake when my best friend was bitten 00:00:30.820 --> 00:00:33.060 in half in front of me, I found this cover story personally embarrassing 00:00:33.060 --> 00:00:36.520 myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything but the little fishies. All 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:38.960 right. All right. Welcome to Everything But the 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.820 Little Fishies. Welcome. I'm Evan. And I'm Mike. 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.979 And today, we're going to be talking about Otaku 00:00:45.979 --> 00:00:50.520 No Video, the two -part OVA by Gainax from 1991. 00:00:51.179 --> 00:00:54.479 And we're going to be talking about their seminal 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:59.070 anime series, Evangelion. including the film, 00:00:59.149 --> 00:01:02.549 The End of Evangelion. But not the reboots. Not 00:01:02.549 --> 00:01:06.370 the reboots. The series was released in 95. End 00:01:06.370 --> 00:01:12.489 of Evangelion was 97. And then because it was 00:01:12.489 --> 00:01:15.989 such a success last time to bring wandering vagrant 00:01:15.989 --> 00:01:19.870 Josh onto our show to talk about Akira, we decided 00:01:19.870 --> 00:01:23.189 to bring him back for our discussion about another 00:01:23.189 --> 00:01:26.450 seminal and important and influential anime work. 00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:29.840 So welcome back, Josh. Thank you. Hi, everybody. 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:32.640 Sorry to make you watch anime again instead of 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:35.400 something that you have any connection to. Akira 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:37.180 was like the first anime film I'd ever seen. 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:39.719 And these are like, I don't know, now like the 00:01:39.719 --> 00:01:42.260 sixth and seventh anime properties that I've 00:01:42.260 --> 00:01:45.579 been engaged with. And yeah, fuck you guys. Are 00:01:45.579 --> 00:01:48.019 you becoming an otaku? Are you becoming an anime 00:01:48.019 --> 00:01:52.079 fan? I mean, like, technically, yes. But in spirit, 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:56.530 I couldn't be further away. God, I hate it. Oh, 00:01:56.629 --> 00:01:58.549 for sure, man. Well, that actually makes you 00:01:58.549 --> 00:02:00.750 an otaku. I know, I know. It's like, yeah. That's 00:02:00.750 --> 00:02:03.810 what we're going to talk about if we want to 00:02:03.810 --> 00:02:06.150 jump right into otaku no video. I mean, Mike, 00:02:06.209 --> 00:02:07.849 do you want to set the scene for this one? I 00:02:07.849 --> 00:02:09.370 think part of the thing was last time when we 00:02:09.370 --> 00:02:11.639 were talking about Akira, I think that... kind 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:13.479 of some of the cultural context that we were 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:15.379 discussing sounded a little bit like out of left 00:02:15.379 --> 00:02:18.080 field or whatever. Because it was completely 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:21.900 out of left field. But like, you know, parts 00:02:21.900 --> 00:02:24.159 of it seemed like we're being very critical of 00:02:24.159 --> 00:02:28.000 sort of the Japanese in general. And I think 00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:30.280 that basically if you were a Japanese audience 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:33.139 watching like a Clockwork Orange, like in order 00:02:33.139 --> 00:02:34.860 to understand a Clockwork Orange, you would have 00:02:34.860 --> 00:02:38.060 to be pretty critical of the West. You know what 00:02:38.060 --> 00:02:40.039 I mean? Like that is, Clockwork Orange is a Western 00:02:40.039 --> 00:02:42.599 work. but it is attacking the Western world. 00:02:42.819 --> 00:02:46.900 So I think that it's important to bring about 00:02:46.900 --> 00:02:51.060 the context that these films exist in a paradigm, 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:54.819 an anime otaku paradigm, that does have its own 00:02:54.819 --> 00:02:57.860 sort of cultural context that is criticizing 00:02:57.860 --> 00:03:01.039 itself, as opposed to us as outsiders sort of 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:04.479 criticizing them. And I think that Otaku No Video 00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:07.960 is a really great case in point. because at the 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:10.259 time there was the otaku killer thing happening 00:03:10.259 --> 00:03:12.520 where basically this i forget his name but this 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.539 dude with weird long hands uh went out and killed 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:18.240 the last name was uh His last name was Miyazaki. 00:03:18.500 --> 00:03:19.939 He was Miyazaki. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:22.280 Miyazaki was going out, and he was raping and 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.419 killing and eating young girls. Little girls. 00:03:25.860 --> 00:03:28.979 And he got caught, and they found anime. He was 00:03:28.979 --> 00:03:31.120 called the little girl killer. Right. He was 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:32.979 called the little girl killer at first, and then 00:03:32.979 --> 00:03:35.419 when they found anime in his room, they started 00:03:35.419 --> 00:03:40.000 connecting the ideas of otaku culture, and they 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.199 started applying that to the killings. Yeah, 00:03:42.659 --> 00:03:45.039 but the point is, at the time, the otaku was 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:48.319 becoming sort of... a feared archetype in japan 00:03:48.319 --> 00:03:52.300 this sort of isolated perverted lonely guy in 00:03:52.300 --> 00:03:55.300 his early 20s who watches a lot of cartoons and 00:03:55.300 --> 00:03:57.539 you know can't talk to people and masturbates 00:03:57.539 --> 00:04:00.219 a lot and kills children yep and i think that 00:04:00.219 --> 00:04:04.719 otaku no video is a response to that i think 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:06.259 that the way it deals with it is brilliant you 00:04:06.259 --> 00:04:08.240 know what i mean i think i think it's very cool 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:14.020 that it basically does attack otaku in a very 00:04:14.020 --> 00:04:16.939 mean way. But underneath all of that, there is 00:04:16.939 --> 00:04:20.160 sort of this love and glorification of the otaku. 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:22.939 Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's important to state 00:04:22.939 --> 00:04:27.060 that originally this is the story of... Okada. 00:04:27.379 --> 00:04:30.779 Okada and Takeda. Right? Takeda's the skinny 00:04:30.779 --> 00:04:34.459 guy and Okada's the fat guy. Takeda was more 00:04:34.459 --> 00:04:37.279 of a normal kid and then Okada started to sort 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:39.360 of introduce him to the perversions of the anime 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.560 world and then he stopped showering and started 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:46.120 watching a lot of it. And I think this celebration 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.360 of that and his choice to become the Oda King... 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:49.759 Important to note, they're two of the founding 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:52.040 members of Gainax. Right, yeah, I should have 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:55.699 mentioned. Takeda and Okada are the two founding 00:04:55.699 --> 00:04:59.649 members. And... Okada's friends were, you know, 00:04:59.709 --> 00:05:03.430 Anno and Takami Akai. Akai is the guy who did 00:05:03.430 --> 00:05:06.110 all of the perverted girl games and stuff. So 00:05:06.110 --> 00:05:09.230 basically, Okada had this group of weird anime 00:05:09.230 --> 00:05:12.449 nerd friends and they invited in Takeda and he 00:05:12.449 --> 00:05:14.949 kind of became one of them. And they were the 00:05:14.949 --> 00:05:17.310 ones who launched this company. And it was launched 00:05:17.310 --> 00:05:21.610 through like these garage kits and these girl 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:25.310 games. And a lot of the work they did animation 00:05:25.310 --> 00:05:27.410 wise was like... They did not have the rights 00:05:27.410 --> 00:05:30.209 to the properties and stuff. There's a lot of 00:05:30.209 --> 00:05:32.410 doujinshi stuff, which is basically like independent 00:05:32.410 --> 00:05:35.529 anime and manga. A lot of it's porn based, but 00:05:35.529 --> 00:05:37.769 they use pre -existing characters and put them 00:05:37.769 --> 00:05:41.050 in porny or not porny situations. Those guys 00:05:41.050 --> 00:05:44.189 are the guys that then created Gainax. And this 00:05:44.189 --> 00:05:47.029 is just, I think, a really great sort of pseudo 00:05:47.029 --> 00:05:49.829 documentary that sort of encapsulates all of 00:05:49.829 --> 00:05:52.959 that. Yeah, I mean... I think if people are interested 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:55.199 in the history of Gainax, there's an incredible 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.500 YouTube series that goes over the whole thing. 00:05:58.660 --> 00:06:00.720 I forgot what the creator's name is. I'm so sorry. 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:04.199 It's like TJ something. But he did the work. 00:06:04.649 --> 00:06:07.610 laid out the whole history of Gainax. Well, I 00:06:07.610 --> 00:06:09.310 think that's the thing that's interesting about 00:06:09.310 --> 00:06:11.750 Otaku no Video is that you don't really need 00:06:11.750 --> 00:06:14.810 all of those specific historical points to get 00:06:14.810 --> 00:06:17.930 the whole story. Otaku no Video combines these 00:06:17.930 --> 00:06:20.290 characters, so Anno is a couple of the friends, 00:06:20.550 --> 00:06:23.810 but you get the vibe of exactly what happened. 00:06:23.829 --> 00:06:25.850 You get the vibe, but Otaku no Video is by no 00:06:25.850 --> 00:06:29.430 means like a documentary. No, right, exactly. 00:06:29.430 --> 00:06:30.870 It's not really like... But at the same time, 00:06:30.870 --> 00:06:34.750 what actually happens is almost identical. Especially 00:06:34.750 --> 00:06:38.629 in Parkada and Takeda, we're just at a convention 00:06:38.629 --> 00:06:41.490 talking to each other for so many hours that 00:06:41.490 --> 00:06:43.870 a crowd gathered around them and they ended up 00:06:43.870 --> 00:06:46.290 talking until the morning. Just basically talking 00:06:46.290 --> 00:06:48.149 in line outside of a convention or whatever. 00:06:48.779 --> 00:06:50.720 And people just thought they were so funny that 00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:52.420 some of the people who organized the con like 00:06:52.420 --> 00:06:54.639 came and they gave them a night the next night 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:56.319 to go on stage and just do the same thing. Just 00:06:56.319 --> 00:06:58.740 bullshit, talk about anime, like basically as 00:06:58.740 --> 00:07:01.480 a like stand up routine. And people love that. 00:07:01.579 --> 00:07:03.720 And that's kind of like that's where all of this 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:05.540 sort of comes out of is this sort of critical 00:07:05.540 --> 00:07:09.560 and like fan based sort of culture stuff, which 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:11.279 to me feels very similar to like the French New 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.500 Wave or something. There's a critique of the 00:07:15.500 --> 00:07:19.379 pre -existing sort of paradigm. built into the 00:07:19.379 --> 00:07:22.019 work that they create. And I think that's like, 00:07:22.060 --> 00:07:25.319 Godard is super, super important if you're going 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.079 to think about Hideaki Anno's work. as well absolutely 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.139 and yeah i think it's important to underline 00:07:31.139 --> 00:07:34.079 the point that gynex and before they were gynex 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:36.819 they were daikon film or whatever that like when 00:07:36.819 --> 00:07:38.660 we talk about the origins of gynex we really 00:07:38.660 --> 00:07:41.699 are talking about a group of friends who were 00:07:41.699 --> 00:07:44.839 like actually otaku and actually passionate about 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.040 the things that they were making and passionate 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:51.959 about creating a community for those people And 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:55.019 starting a movement in which this thing they 00:07:55.019 --> 00:07:57.620 love so much would actually become mainstream. 00:07:58.060 --> 00:08:01.199 And that's part of what Otaku No Video is as 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:03.579 well, is not only the story of Gainax and their 00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:07.399 beginnings, but the fantasy, the fantasization 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.220 of what they could become. Right. And how they 00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:13.360 would change the world, so to speak, and stuff 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.240 like that. And at the same time, I think there's 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:18.589 a built -in post -modernism to it. that that 00:08:18.589 --> 00:08:23.370 the rise of this anime culture is tied to a living 00:08:23.370 --> 00:08:26.910 completely in the realm of fantasy um so the 00:08:26.910 --> 00:08:29.990 end where they win they're just sitting on the 00:08:29.990 --> 00:08:32.850 battleship yamato and they're all 18 again and 00:08:32.850 --> 00:08:36.230 they're flying in a spaceship that came out of 00:08:36.230 --> 00:08:39.049 their theme park like But they do have a giant 00:08:39.049 --> 00:08:42.129 theme park now. A lot of these things actually 00:08:42.129 --> 00:08:46.669 did come to happen. There is a full -size Gundam 00:08:46.669 --> 00:08:50.049 in, I don't know where it is, but in Japan. They 00:08:50.049 --> 00:08:52.629 do this stuff. This culture actually did take 00:08:52.629 --> 00:08:56.090 off to a level that is the cartoonish level. 00:08:56.990 --> 00:09:00.029 That's the thing about this movie. I think that 00:09:00.029 --> 00:09:02.330 a lot of the things that it's doing ironically 00:09:02.330 --> 00:09:05.929 don't even feel that ironic anymore because that's 00:09:05.929 --> 00:09:08.730 just kind of the way that it is. So like when 00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:11.590 they're putting this anime on a pedestal, like 00:09:11.590 --> 00:09:14.009 they're doing it in a tongue in cheek way that 00:09:14.009 --> 00:09:16.149 they also do love it, but they're, you know, 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:18.289 they know it's kind of silly. You almost don't 00:09:18.289 --> 00:09:20.009 get that tongue in cheekness now. You know what 00:09:20.009 --> 00:09:23.269 I mean? Because that is like. the number three 00:09:23.269 --> 00:09:25.330 export in japan or something like it's it's it's 00:09:25.330 --> 00:09:27.490 like a huge amount of their economy is anime 00:09:27.490 --> 00:09:30.149 a huge amount of their cultural export a huge 00:09:30.149 --> 00:09:32.470 amount of like what they define themselves as 00:09:32.470 --> 00:09:35.850 and for the otaku and the hikigomori whatever 00:09:35.850 --> 00:09:38.070 a huge part of the actual world that they live 00:09:38.070 --> 00:09:40.909 in this post -modern world where the images are 00:09:40.909 --> 00:09:43.789 more important than the reality itself You know 00:09:43.789 --> 00:09:45.350 what this reminded me a little bit of, actually, 00:09:45.450 --> 00:09:47.789 which we just talked about, is Revenge of the 00:09:47.789 --> 00:09:50.429 Nerds. Yeah, totally. It kind of feels like a 00:09:50.429 --> 00:09:52.629 version of Revenge of the Nerds where the people 00:09:52.629 --> 00:09:56.169 making it are actually aware of what they are. 00:09:56.230 --> 00:09:58.799 Yes. Exactly. And they're self -critical. And 00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:00.500 they're self -critical as opposed to Revenge 00:10:00.500 --> 00:10:02.720 of the Nerds where it's made by fucking evil 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:06.460 nerds who are not self -critical. Where if Anno 00:10:06.460 --> 00:10:08.220 was making Revenge of the Nerds, yeah, he would 00:10:08.220 --> 00:10:10.539 still rape that girl, but he would feel bad about 00:10:10.539 --> 00:10:14.120 it afterwards. He's the lowest of the low if 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:17.539 he does that. You think it's lower to admit? 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.179 I'm sorry. I was just being Shinji at the beginning 00:10:22.179 --> 00:10:25.860 of End of Evangelion. Yes, yes. I'm sorry. I'm 00:10:25.860 --> 00:10:28.039 sorry. I don't know. I think the only thing I 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:30.700 can really add here is as someone who is completely 00:10:30.700 --> 00:10:34.700 outside of that culture, consumptively even, 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.779 it's just not something I engage with. The people 00:10:37.779 --> 00:10:40.720 that I do engage with, you guys accept it, obviously. 00:10:41.909 --> 00:10:43.629 the people that I do engage with who are a part 00:10:43.629 --> 00:10:45.970 of that culture are not necessarily inward looking 00:10:45.970 --> 00:10:48.549 folks. Like there are people who are like, dude, 00:10:48.690 --> 00:10:51.429 you have to watch one piece and like, don't worry 00:10:51.429 --> 00:10:54.590 about the first 200 episodes. Like there is a 00:10:54.590 --> 00:10:58.070 total and complete lack of self -awareness that 00:10:58.070 --> 00:11:01.570 is, that's the thing. Like as a cultural commodity, 00:11:01.789 --> 00:11:05.740 I don't think it's really become. American thing 00:11:05.740 --> 00:11:08.840 but as a commercial commodity it's fucking humongous 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:11.779 like yeah it's a financial export yeah it's you 00:11:11.779 --> 00:11:14.279 know Japan's number three export or whatever 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:17.580 but as like something in this country to be consumed 00:11:17.580 --> 00:11:21.759 by the you know lumpenproletariat it's still 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:24.700 very much stigmatized it is something that like 00:11:24.700 --> 00:11:29.820 any I'll say professional adult who is not like 00:11:29.820 --> 00:11:35.049 a culturista looks at anime as Not just shit 00:11:35.049 --> 00:11:37.909 for kids, but like weirdly pornographic shit 00:11:37.909 --> 00:11:40.210 for kids. Something to be derided. Something 00:11:40.210 --> 00:11:42.809 to be kind of, I don't know, put back in its 00:11:42.809 --> 00:11:46.809 box. Yeah, and I don't think that Anno disagrees. 00:11:46.909 --> 00:11:49.990 And I also don't think Miyazaki disagrees. Totally. 00:11:50.049 --> 00:11:52.250 I mean, I think that a lot of the guys who make 00:11:52.250 --> 00:11:55.149 this anime... They are aware of this. And, I 00:11:55.149 --> 00:11:57.690 mean, Miyazaki hates anime fans. Absolutely. 00:11:57.690 --> 00:12:00.909 The only one that he likes is Anno. He hates 00:12:00.909 --> 00:12:02.830 his son, but Anno, he loves him. I say all this 00:12:02.830 --> 00:12:05.750 to say that I think that the tongue -in -cheek 00:12:05.750 --> 00:12:07.970 nature is preserved for an audience like me, 00:12:08.110 --> 00:12:11.789 where it's like that self -critical thing hits 00:12:11.789 --> 00:12:16.549 so much harder when me, as someone who is not 00:12:16.549 --> 00:12:18.970 necessarily inherently opposed to this type of 00:12:18.970 --> 00:12:22.149 content, but that doesn't see the inherent value 00:12:22.149 --> 00:12:25.730 to it, I look at it and I go like, yeah, if you 00:12:25.730 --> 00:12:28.149 make this shit and if you love only this shit, 00:12:28.309 --> 00:12:31.029 you should hate yourself. American audiences 00:12:31.029 --> 00:12:34.649 of otaku culture are not there yet. They don't 00:12:34.649 --> 00:12:37.289 have that self -critical lens. So like otaku 00:12:37.289 --> 00:12:39.029 no video, I feel like is something that I want 00:12:39.029 --> 00:12:43.090 to hand to like my non -binary niece to be like, 00:12:43.169 --> 00:12:46.610 stop, stop it. Fucking look at this. Look at 00:12:46.610 --> 00:12:49.629 yourself and have a clarifying sense of self 00:12:49.629 --> 00:12:52.840 -hatred. So I think this is a really interesting 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.179 point to dig into and jump off of because I think 00:12:56.179 --> 00:12:58.980 this actually kind of is the main conversation 00:12:58.980 --> 00:13:03.279 to be had about Anno's work and what Otaku No 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:05.419 Video is saying and Otaku culture in general. 00:13:05.860 --> 00:13:07.960 Like you said, a lot of people just aren't self 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:10.059 -aware. They're like these insane, rabid fans 00:13:10.059 --> 00:13:12.539 of things and they don't see themselves as these 00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:17.179 sort of obsessive, weird individuals. And I think 00:13:17.179 --> 00:13:20.960 that's probably why I think I'm going to start 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:24.059 by saying I think a lot of the negativity and 00:13:24.059 --> 00:13:27.480 criticism about things like the end of Evangelion, 00:13:27.500 --> 00:13:29.700 the movie, but also the end of the show, like 00:13:29.700 --> 00:13:32.679 the last two episodes, I think the idea that 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:36.159 that stuff is super unpopular with the fans is 00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:39.500 probably sort of overblown. But you can imagine 00:13:39.500 --> 00:13:44.440 that there is a wide group of anime fans who 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:48.639 got certain things out of these animes. but then 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:51.059 didn't know how to process the things that were 00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:54.419 deeper, scarier, ickier, made them look inward. 00:13:54.860 --> 00:13:58.340 I think a good example of this shift in Otaku 00:13:58.340 --> 00:14:01.899 No Video is that I think the first half of Otaku 00:14:01.899 --> 00:14:05.539 No Video is very, very humanizing to the otaku. 00:14:06.090 --> 00:14:08.629 I think it's really fun to watch that group get 00:14:08.629 --> 00:14:12.149 together. It's really interesting to watch the 00:14:12.149 --> 00:14:14.230 main characters shift from seeing these guys 00:14:14.230 --> 00:14:16.649 as a bunch of scary weirdos to seeing them as 00:14:16.649 --> 00:14:19.809 just normal human beings. And the fact that all 00:14:19.809 --> 00:14:23.190 these weird interests they have are actually 00:14:23.190 --> 00:14:25.190 bringing them all together into some kind of 00:14:25.190 --> 00:14:28.190 community. And then just the success story of 00:14:28.190 --> 00:14:31.340 coming together as friends. being like, we're 00:14:31.340 --> 00:14:33.120 going to do these garage kits and we're going 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:36.539 to whatever it is and sort of like succeeding. 00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:38.879 It's like punk rock in a way, the sort of like 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:43.879 success of something really small and rough around 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:47.840 the edges and DIY that then becomes really like 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.139 popular. And it's such an incredible success. 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:53.700 But I think the second half, which is probably 00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:57.200 not people's favorite half. I think that's the 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:59.659 side that gets a little bit weirder. Right. Yeah, 00:14:59.779 --> 00:15:01.600 yeah. It starts to get into the actual corporate 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.090 infrastructure and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. The 00:15:05.090 --> 00:15:08.929 way all these otaku seem to sort of slide effortlessly 00:15:08.929 --> 00:15:12.830 into a corporate structure where their interests 00:15:12.830 --> 00:15:15.769 are in expanding and creating more profit is 00:15:15.769 --> 00:15:17.929 really interesting. And the fact that it's played 00:15:17.929 --> 00:15:20.830 so straight is interesting as well. But there's 00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:23.870 just something so icky about the entire part 00:15:23.870 --> 00:15:26.590 of the story where he's like, let's build factories 00:15:26.590 --> 00:15:30.919 in China for cheap labor. and all this kind of 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.340 stuff. But he knows that. Let's use a cheaper 00:15:33.340 --> 00:15:35.960 kind of... That's totally like... It's completely 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:38.500 self -critical. So there's the thing where the 00:15:38.500 --> 00:15:41.840 revolution and the little guys become the establishment 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:44.440 and whatever. Which is what happened. Yeah, yeah, 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:46.480 yeah. It becomes a little more complicated because, 00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:48.860 like, you know, the main character does get edged 00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:51.279 out of the company. And then eventually his friend 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:53.000 who he started the company with gets edged out 00:15:53.000 --> 00:15:55.659 as well. And then they, like, find each other 00:15:55.659 --> 00:15:57.960 again and start another company that also does 00:15:57.960 --> 00:15:59.679 really well and, like, yada, yada, yada. This 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:01.720 is what happens with general products and Gainax 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:03.580 and stuff. Like, there's all of these, like, 00:16:03.659 --> 00:16:06.580 behind -the -scenes things. Like, a lot of these 00:16:06.580 --> 00:16:09.200 happened in... In other ways, like not exactly 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:10.899 the way it happened in the show, obviously. But 00:16:10.899 --> 00:16:12.620 I just think that's interesting that in 91 and 00:16:12.620 --> 00:16:14.720 in Otaku no Video, like Otaku no Video actually 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.740 does kind of describe the future of Gainax, even 00:16:17.740 --> 00:16:19.460 though it hasn't happened yet. Right, exactly. 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.480 It almost describes like... the creation of Studio 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:26.399 Kara and, like, Anno and, like, how many, like, 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:28.440 of the original creators left Gainax and went 00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:29.679 off and did their own things. Yeah, this has 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:31.840 happened over and over at Gainax and stuff. And, 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.759 yeah, I'm pretty sure Akata stole a bunch of 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:37.320 money at some point, too. It wasn't Akata. But, 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:40.360 yeah, two people got arrested for tax evasion 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:43.279 because the accountant was, like, hiding Evangelion 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.440 profits or something like that. So they had that 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:48.220 scandal. And then later on there was a sexual 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:51.259 abuse scandal. Isn't there always? Yeah, with 00:16:51.259 --> 00:16:54.500 another one of the founders. So, like, I mean, 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:57.100 even before Evangelion, like, most of the original 00:16:57.100 --> 00:17:01.679 founders had left Gainax already. Even Anno wasn't 00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:03.559 really a part of Gainax at that point. He came 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:06.779 back to make Evangelion. And then I think he 00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:08.940 did another project. He did his and her circumstances 00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:11.539 after Evangelion. But then after that, he pretty 00:17:11.539 --> 00:17:13.920 much, like, left. Yeah, and his and her circumstances 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.299 also, like, he left halfway through, basically. 00:17:17.069 --> 00:17:19.630 I mean, pretty much every single Anno show, he 00:17:19.630 --> 00:17:21.569 has like a mental breakdown halfway through and 00:17:21.569 --> 00:17:23.789 the budget thins out and there's a bunch of problems 00:17:23.789 --> 00:17:25.630 and whatever. I think, I mean, if you want to 00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:27.069 get into this, I think part of the reason that 00:17:27.069 --> 00:17:29.849 is is because Anno does not have these shows 00:17:29.849 --> 00:17:32.710 in his head when he starts. Yeah. This is a guy, 00:17:32.769 --> 00:17:35.109 this is not a guy who knew what was going to 00:17:35.109 --> 00:17:37.349 happen at the end of Evangelion and started writing 00:17:37.349 --> 00:17:38.710 at the beginning. This is a guy who's like, okay, 00:17:38.769 --> 00:17:40.470 so here's what happens in a giant robot show. 00:17:40.529 --> 00:17:42.950 There's a kid, there's a robot, and there's a, 00:17:43.029 --> 00:17:44.650 okay, there's a dad. He's in charge of the thing. 00:17:44.829 --> 00:17:46.569 And there's a, there's got to be a hot. girl 00:17:46.569 --> 00:17:48.930 there's got to be like that's that's what he's 00:17:48.930 --> 00:17:53.089 doing yeah he's working with archetypes and yeah 00:17:53.089 --> 00:17:55.769 and writing as he goes but it's not concerned 00:17:55.769 --> 00:18:00.049 as much with this sort of plot stuff as much 00:18:00.049 --> 00:18:02.589 as it is with the archetypes no yeah honestly 00:18:02.589 --> 00:18:05.329 the american show it reminds me the most of is 00:18:05.329 --> 00:18:09.769 lost that like that's a bummer like a curd i 00:18:09.769 --> 00:18:14.539 don't know you like lost all right I have very 00:18:14.539 --> 00:18:17.559 complicated feelings about Lost. But I realized 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:20.839 this time that Lost is essentially Evangelion 00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:23.759 but with just so many more filler episodes. Because 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:27.339 Evangelion is 26 episodes and Lost is like hundreds 00:18:27.339 --> 00:18:30.859 or whatever. But the same kind of spirit of writing 00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:33.380 as you go and a lot of the same kind of just 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:35.460 like we're working with archetypes sort of thing. 00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:40.200 One of the big differences for me is that I think 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:44.579 that Lost was not writing about the art. There's 00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:47.680 not the same self -critical eye to look at Jack 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.740 Shepard as like, I don't know, as an archetype. 00:18:51.740 --> 00:18:54.380 He's a cultural archetype. He's not a human archetype 00:18:54.380 --> 00:18:57.000 like Shinji is. It's also just like it's not 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.720 a genre thing really as much. Sure, it's dealing 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.559 with TV storytelling and whatever, but like... 00:19:03.930 --> 00:19:06.750 Evangelion is working very much in a very specific 00:19:06.750 --> 00:19:09.710 genre and tweaking those archetypes. Evangelion 00:19:09.710 --> 00:19:13.769 is almost the same show as Gundam from 79. It's 00:19:13.769 --> 00:19:17.849 all tropes. It's dealing with established tropes. 00:19:18.970 --> 00:19:22.109 This guy who is not writing to a conclusion that 00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:25.130 he has instead is just like dealing with these 00:19:25.130 --> 00:19:27.450 tropes and moving them around on like a chessboard 00:19:27.450 --> 00:19:29.789 or something. Well, the difference is that like 00:19:29.789 --> 00:19:32.990 Lost is not an auteur piece. Anno is like using 00:19:32.990 --> 00:19:36.549 the show to work through his stuff. Exactly. 00:19:36.549 --> 00:19:38.750 And, you know, that's not what's going on with 00:19:38.750 --> 00:19:41.789 Lost or most American TV shows from that time. 00:19:41.869 --> 00:19:43.450 You know, there's not a lot of like examples 00:19:43.450 --> 00:19:47.789 of auteur TV before like the... Sopranos. Before 00:19:47.789 --> 00:19:50.170 the Sopranos, basically, yeah. Yeah, I mean, 00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:53.529 I guess something like Lost is using archetypes, 00:19:53.529 --> 00:19:56.170 something like Evangelion ends up examining them 00:19:56.170 --> 00:19:58.789 and criticizing them. Exactly. I mean, the title 00:19:58.789 --> 00:20:01.329 of the show is Neon Genesis Evangelion. It's 00:20:01.329 --> 00:20:05.950 the new first book of the gospel. It's trying 00:20:05.950 --> 00:20:10.809 to do kind of what Scorsese is trying to do in 00:20:10.809 --> 00:20:14.509 The Last Temptation of Christ. Where it's using 00:20:14.509 --> 00:20:18.349 Christian archetypes to, you know, examine Christianity 00:20:18.349 --> 00:20:21.069 and turning them on their head in certain ways. 00:20:21.329 --> 00:20:24.309 And that's why I mean, the lost thing. But like, 00:20:24.490 --> 00:20:27.289 even so, like, I think I think it's dealing with 00:20:27.289 --> 00:20:30.089 specific archetypes in a specific genre. And 00:20:30.089 --> 00:20:32.369 it's. I don't know. It's like it's like if you 00:20:32.369 --> 00:20:35.109 know the notes that you have to hit to play this 00:20:35.109 --> 00:20:37.529 song and then you go off on a little like it's 00:20:37.529 --> 00:20:39.170 jazz. Like, you know what I mean? You have to 00:20:39.170 --> 00:20:41.789 stay within these certain boundaries of harmony 00:20:41.789 --> 00:20:44.890 and harmonization and whatever. But outside of 00:20:44.890 --> 00:20:47.069 that, you can kind of do whatever you feel like 00:20:47.069 --> 00:20:48.730 in that episode to talk about whatever you're 00:20:48.730 --> 00:20:51.329 feeling right then. And I think by the end of 00:20:51.329 --> 00:20:53.269 the show, he doesn't even give a fuck about harmonies 00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:55.450 anymore. It kind of becomes like Miles Davis 00:20:55.450 --> 00:20:57.190 or something where it's just kind of all fucking 00:20:57.190 --> 00:21:02.109 over the place and just like, here's a wah. That's 00:21:02.109 --> 00:21:04.490 what it feels like to me. Much more than it feels 00:21:04.490 --> 00:21:07.730 like, you know, a constructed, like a Spielberg 00:21:07.730 --> 00:21:11.529 film or a Kubrick film or something. Well, it 00:21:11.529 --> 00:21:14.859 feels a lot more like a Godard. I mean, I think 00:21:14.859 --> 00:21:17.119 I saw, I think I might have even seen Evangelion 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.460 before watching a lot of Godard movies, but then 00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:22.160 when you watch Godard and then go back to Evangelion, 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.079 it's like, this is so Godard. It's so postmodern 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.940 and deconstructionist where like text is showing 00:21:28.940 --> 00:21:32.400 up on the screen and it's like meta and making 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.380 you aware of being like an active participant 00:21:35.380 --> 00:21:37.819 in the storytelling or whatever. Right, right. 00:21:37.819 --> 00:21:40.480 Because it's talking about storytelling. Yeah, 00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:41.059 it's talking about you as a viewer. It's not 00:21:41.059 --> 00:21:43.960 trying to seduce you. It's trying to make you 00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:46.359 aware, at least in the end. And I think that's 00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:48.220 what could be credited to any of the disappointment 00:21:48.220 --> 00:21:51.400 that fans might have had about the last two episodes 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:53.140 or whatever, is that there were a lot of people 00:21:53.140 --> 00:21:55.859 who were watching it in the way that you would 00:21:55.859 --> 00:21:58.220 watch Lost, where you're like, I want to see 00:21:58.220 --> 00:22:00.700 how all these loose threads tie together. I want 00:22:00.700 --> 00:22:04.319 to see where the plot goes and what happens here. 00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:07.599 What's the story? But then just gets rid of all 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:10.180 that. And it just sheds the pretense entirely 00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:13.769 of like, plot and world building to just be like 00:22:13.769 --> 00:22:15.849 this is just about an internal monologue and 00:22:15.849 --> 00:22:17.750 this like the shit that these characters are 00:22:17.750 --> 00:22:21.009 going through and just yeah I never got to the 00:22:21.009 --> 00:22:24.829 end of Lost so I don't really know But the impression 00:22:24.829 --> 00:22:26.869 that I've gotten was that they also dropped it, 00:22:26.890 --> 00:22:28.609 but basically because they didn't really have 00:22:28.609 --> 00:22:30.529 anywhere to go or anything to say, so they just 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:32.089 kind of were like, it was all a dream, or you 00:22:32.089 --> 00:22:33.849 were all dead all along, or it was something 00:22:33.849 --> 00:22:35.210 like that, right? That's not how Lost is. That's 00:22:35.210 --> 00:22:38.170 not how it is? No. I get so sick of people saying 00:22:38.170 --> 00:22:41.930 that. It's not either of those things, and I'm 00:22:41.930 --> 00:22:43.970 sorry I brought up Lost. Well, how does Lost... 00:22:43.970 --> 00:22:46.390 You haven't seen it. I don't know. I think the 00:22:46.390 --> 00:22:49.829 point is that, like, Evangelion... when it when 00:22:49.829 --> 00:22:52.250 it gets to that point like it completely loses 00:22:52.250 --> 00:22:55.470 momentum at a completely weird time that's like 00:22:55.470 --> 00:22:58.250 almost totally arbitrary i mean it makes sense 00:22:58.250 --> 00:23:01.049 structurally and emotionally and whatnot but 00:23:01.049 --> 00:23:03.809 like Shinji kills Kwaru and then you never see 00:23:03.809 --> 00:23:06.390 anybody else in reality ever again. It's just 00:23:06.390 --> 00:23:09.670 like the story is over and there is no conclusion 00:23:09.670 --> 00:23:12.829 whatsoever. You see a little bit like in the 00:23:12.829 --> 00:23:16.289 last two episodes, they basically do just explain 00:23:16.289 --> 00:23:19.029 to you what happens and then they expand on that 00:23:19.029 --> 00:23:20.869 in the end of Evangelion and stuff. But like 00:23:20.869 --> 00:23:23.720 you see a shot of Misato. dead on the ground 00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:26.640 she's been shot by a bullet like um and you see 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:29.619 reets go like face down in the water and yeah 00:23:29.619 --> 00:23:32.980 and you basically hear gendo say like the human 00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:35.079 instrumentality project is the merging of all 00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:38.019 souls and there's whatever like they and they 00:23:38.019 --> 00:23:40.059 even say like because we don't have that much 00:23:40.059 --> 00:23:42.539 time we'll just say we'll just explain what happened 00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:44.880 the third impact happened the instrumentality 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:47.700 project began yada yada you know it's like yeah 00:23:47.700 --> 00:23:50.410 it like Tells you what happens. But it's that 00:23:50.410 --> 00:23:53.869 scene in an American movie where he's like, I've 00:23:53.869 --> 00:23:56.109 never seen a scene where they just cut to black 00:23:56.109 --> 00:23:58.250 and on the screen it says, we didn't have money, 00:23:58.329 --> 00:24:00.650 so imagine that this happened. I've never seen 00:24:00.650 --> 00:24:02.589 that in a fucking movie. Like, you can't do that. 00:24:03.190 --> 00:24:04.809 It's like, I don't know, just was like, no, we 00:24:04.809 --> 00:24:07.750 can do that. Let's just do that. It's possible 00:24:07.750 --> 00:24:10.509 it's not even a money issue. They could have 00:24:10.509 --> 00:24:13.400 maybe done something. But that's what Anno chose 00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:15.920 to do. No, sure. I mean, there's several issues 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.799 happening, which we can get into. There's them 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:21.720 running out of money halfway through the show. 00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.119 And then there's also the idea that there was 00:24:25.119 --> 00:24:27.039 a different ending originally that had to be 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:29.779 changed because of the Om Shinrikyo subway gas 00:24:29.779 --> 00:24:32.660 attack right before the ending of the series 00:24:32.660 --> 00:24:35.980 happened. So theoretically, the end of the series 00:24:35.980 --> 00:24:40.210 had some... you know mass violence thing happening 00:24:40.210 --> 00:24:42.210 where everybody was turning into orange goo and 00:24:42.210 --> 00:24:44.269 dying and throughout tokyo and whatever and that 00:24:44.269 --> 00:24:46.809 that theoretically had subways involved or something 00:24:46.809 --> 00:24:49.769 or just was too close and just similar to the 00:24:49.769 --> 00:24:51.970 post 9 -11 era of like we don't end a movie with 00:24:51.970 --> 00:24:54.450 having a plane crash into a building like even 00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:55.990 if it's not the same build like you know what 00:24:55.990 --> 00:24:58.829 i mean so exactly there is that But then there's 00:24:58.829 --> 00:25:02.329 also the idea of what Aum Shinrikyo actually 00:25:02.329 --> 00:25:06.490 was and kind of its connection to the whole series. 00:25:06.890 --> 00:25:09.069 And like, I mean, I just watched the, they just 00:25:09.069 --> 00:25:11.549 came out with an Aum Shinrikyo documentary on 00:25:11.549 --> 00:25:14.789 HBO or Netflix or some shit. And it was not very 00:25:14.789 --> 00:25:17.130 good. It kind of just talked about Aum Shinrikyo 00:25:17.130 --> 00:25:18.849 as if it was any cult. It was the same as watching 00:25:18.849 --> 00:25:21.829 a, you know, a thing on, I don't know, it was 00:25:21.829 --> 00:25:24.069 just like a generalized cult. Like, oh, there 00:25:24.069 --> 00:25:25.910 was a guy and then he got more and more powerful 00:25:25.910 --> 00:25:28.369 and then he started taking over. and started 00:25:28.369 --> 00:25:30.009 doing bad stuff, and then he started getting 00:25:30.009 --> 00:25:32.029 weapons, and then he started, you know, and then 00:25:32.029 --> 00:25:34.690 they did an attack. But I think that the thing 00:25:34.690 --> 00:25:36.130 that's most interesting about Anno Shinrikyo 00:25:36.130 --> 00:25:38.390 is that it was, like, very much a pop culture 00:25:38.390 --> 00:25:41.150 -based cult, that, like, they used a lot of anime 00:25:41.150 --> 00:25:45.369 in their messaging, but they also, like, used 00:25:45.369 --> 00:25:48.990 anime archetypes, the way that Anno uses them 00:25:48.990 --> 00:25:53.089 to sort of try and create the new... first book 00:25:53.089 --> 00:25:55.670 of the gospel. They're trying to use these archetypes 00:25:55.670 --> 00:25:57.549 from things like Gundam. I mean, specifically 00:25:57.549 --> 00:26:00.170 the guy who created Gundam talked about Shinrikyo 00:26:00.170 --> 00:26:04.049 taking those ideas and using that sort of black 00:26:04.049 --> 00:26:06.210 and white morality to apply to reality and blah 00:26:06.210 --> 00:26:08.329 blah blah. Which is interesting because Gundam... 00:26:08.569 --> 00:26:10.730 like the complete opposite like the Gundam is 00:26:10.730 --> 00:26:13.309 all about there are no bad guys the other side 00:26:13.309 --> 00:26:15.630 is totally humanized in every episode all the 00:26:15.630 --> 00:26:17.609 episodes just end with like you meet a good person 00:26:17.609 --> 00:26:19.769 and then they die and then everybody's sad and 00:26:19.769 --> 00:26:22.069 then they like they but they get killed by the 00:26:22.069 --> 00:26:24.509 other people who you also like it's all it's 00:26:24.509 --> 00:26:27.680 it's very morally great but the point is Om Shinrikyo 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:29.299 was specifically trying to do the same thing 00:26:29.299 --> 00:26:31.500 that Anno was trying to do, of taking these archetypes 00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.960 and applying them to a new conspiracy theorist 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:36.279 reality that is connected to Christian symbolism 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.599 and evil Jews and all of those sorts of cultural 00:26:40.599 --> 00:26:43.240 archetypes that are, you know, important in Japan. 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:46.140 Like, and Anno also was interested in, like, 00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:48.319 but Asahara was, the guy who created the cult, 00:26:48.380 --> 00:26:51.259 Asahara, he, like, was becoming a, like, big 00:26:51.259 --> 00:26:53.880 cultural figure. Like, he, there's, like, footage 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:56.319 of him in the documentary on, what's his name? 00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:59.799 Who's the fucking teacher in Battle Royale? Holy 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:01.720 shit, it's been so long since I've seen Battle 00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:04.700 Royale. It's Takeshi Kitano. Yeah, Takeshi Kitano. 00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:07.660 It's Takeshi Kitano, and he's on Takeshi Kitano's 00:27:07.660 --> 00:27:09.359 TV show talking about Aum Shinrikyo. So it's 00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:15.119 being accepted as a force in Japan, Aum Shinrikyo. 00:27:15.220 --> 00:27:20.140 And it's cultural sort of... footprint is getting 00:27:20.140 --> 00:27:22.319 bigger and bigger and by the end of Evangelion 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:24.720 like Anno is very interested in this and they're 00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:26.140 interested in each other like they're both doing 00:27:26.140 --> 00:27:30.000 the same thing and then Om Shinrikyo ends with 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.200 this sort of big violence and then the show was 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:34.720 also supposed to end with this big violence and 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:38.519 Anno is like apparently flirting with this cult 00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:40.259 and whatnot I don't know how much connection 00:27:40.259 --> 00:27:44.250 he had to Asahara but there's I mean, he hasn't 00:27:44.250 --> 00:27:45.809 really talked so much about this connection, 00:27:46.069 --> 00:27:48.809 but apparently there was a connection and that 00:27:48.809 --> 00:27:51.569 that has to do with why the ending was changed. 00:27:51.970 --> 00:27:53.789 And you see in the ending that that's happening 00:27:53.789 --> 00:27:56.349 simultaneous with like a total mental breakdown, 00:27:56.609 --> 00:27:58.849 total depression, and a total examination of 00:27:58.849 --> 00:28:01.210 his own ideas, right? Where he's looking at these 00:28:01.210 --> 00:28:03.250 archetypes that he's been dealing with and being 00:28:03.250 --> 00:28:06.269 like, why am I dealing with these this way? Like, 00:28:06.289 --> 00:28:08.849 why are we doing this? You know what I mean? 00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:11.259 I think that the end of the show has a lot to 00:28:11.259 --> 00:28:15.059 do with him dealing with his support of that 00:28:15.059 --> 00:28:18.200 ideology that led to that violence, basically. 00:28:18.220 --> 00:28:20.359 Yeah, I haven't heard that particular angle. 00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:23.779 Because, like, I definitely think it's easy enough 00:28:23.779 --> 00:28:26.859 to describe the last two episodes of Evangelion 00:28:26.859 --> 00:28:30.420 and even maybe the whole show is, like, basically 00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:34.119 a therapy session. And, like, yeah, Anno's just 00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:37.259 no stranger to... getting severely depressed 00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:41.000 while working on a television show i think like 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:43.200 the show he made before evangelion was called 00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:46.680 like nadia the secret of blue water and um that's 00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:49.759 a show that like he left at some point and came 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:52.599 back and did the last couple episodes but that 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:56.000 project destroyed him and definitely like That's 00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:58.380 kind of the energy he was bringing into Evangelion. 00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:00.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But at the same time, there's 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:03.900 an interview with Hiroki Izuma talking about 00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:06.980 working with Hideaki Anno. He's a cultural critic 00:29:06.980 --> 00:29:10.700 in Japan and involved in anime and whatnot. And 00:29:10.700 --> 00:29:14.460 he describes Anno's flirtation with Aum Shinrikyo 00:29:14.460 --> 00:29:18.380 and sort of how his dealing with those archetypes 00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:22.240 was similar to how... Asahara was dealing with 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:24.700 his archetypes in Ohm and that basically it was 00:29:24.700 --> 00:29:27.200 because of that connection that he couldn't do 00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.900 the end anymore and that to me basically gives 00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:33.119 a whole new sort of spin on the end. I mean, 00:29:33.140 --> 00:29:35.779 it's kind of like if you were a super, you know, 00:29:35.779 --> 00:29:40.059 anti -American vocal person talking about, like, 00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:42.299 making a movie where the whole thing is about 00:29:42.299 --> 00:29:43.839 how you need to, you know, blow up the World 00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:45.519 Trade Center. You know what I mean? It's like, 00:29:45.579 --> 00:29:48.099 fuck trade, fuck the, like, fuck all these, like, 00:29:48.140 --> 00:29:49.680 evil people in charge, like, blow up the World 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:51.099 Trade Center, and then, like, it happens, and 00:29:51.099 --> 00:29:54.230 you're like, fuck. All right, well... why am 00:29:54.230 --> 00:29:55.910 i into blowing up like now that i've seen this 00:29:55.910 --> 00:29:58.130 happen this doesn't seem cool anymore like you 00:29:58.130 --> 00:30:00.089 know what i mean like maybe there's something 00:30:00.089 --> 00:30:02.970 wrong with me like maybe there's something wrong 00:30:02.970 --> 00:30:05.109 with all of us who thought that this was cool 00:30:05.109 --> 00:30:06.630 like we've all been watching this show and we've 00:30:06.630 --> 00:30:10.250 all been down for that but now why are we here 00:30:10.250 --> 00:30:12.210 like why did this we should just get somebody 00:30:12.210 --> 00:30:14.150 into the government who will like completely 00:30:14.150 --> 00:30:16.569 destroy it and break it down that'd be super 00:30:16.569 --> 00:30:19.609 cool right exactly exactly yeah and then it happens 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:25.859 Maybe we shouldn't break the government. Like, 00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:28.500 maybe we do sort of need it. Yeah, I mean, I 00:30:28.500 --> 00:30:30.299 think this is a lot of what Brad Bird's talking 00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:32.859 about in Incredibles 2. We'll start to talk about 00:30:32.859 --> 00:30:35.339 that in the future. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah. 00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:37.779 We're all over the place right now, though. Let's 00:30:37.779 --> 00:30:39.819 go back to a talk in a video, man, real quick. 00:30:39.980 --> 00:30:41.480 And just, like, Josh, what did you think of a 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:44.359 talk in a video? like your impressions we've 00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:46.400 kind of just been like at the heart of it what 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:49.440 I love it's what I love of what I've taken away 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.559 from all of Anna's work is like a that lacerating 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.359 self -criticism just like we talked about it 00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:59.259 earlier but The fact that most of the people 00:30:59.259 --> 00:31:03.240 in fan culture worldwide, the main thing is like, 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:06.339 you know, I say this too fucking much, like the 00:31:06.339 --> 00:31:08.259 most harmful words in the world are like, I don't 00:31:08.259 --> 00:31:11.700 know why, I just like it. And like, Anno is the 00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:14.799 complete opposite of that. And like, when he's 00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:18.579 examining his characters in that mode, in that 00:31:18.579 --> 00:31:22.079 mode of like, let me talk to you about like fucking... 00:31:22.619 --> 00:31:25.859 char the red comet and then everyone is sitting 00:31:25.859 --> 00:31:28.720 there listening to it like yeah we know exactly 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:30.819 what you're talking about and this is of equal 00:31:30.819 --> 00:31:33.539 importance to all of us like that you are at 00:31:33.539 --> 00:31:36.019 a kind of dissonance with the rest of the world 00:31:36.019 --> 00:31:39.000 that like that isn't that's a self -isolating 00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.980 thing i you know i find that tremendously interesting 00:31:42.980 --> 00:31:45.519 and i think like i don't know the thing that 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:49.140 otaku no video does best is and and you know 00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:51.559 evangelion does it too where it's like Every 00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:55.140 time I recognize a deficiency in myself, there's 00:31:55.140 --> 00:31:57.819 this impulse to hide it. There's this impulse 00:31:57.819 --> 00:32:00.700 to say, like, yeah, but since I know about it, 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:03.339 it's actually not a problem. And then the progress 00:32:03.339 --> 00:32:07.720 is immediately undone by, like, the base knowledge 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:10.039 that you have that you are, like, a recursive 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:13.079 person who will go back to comfort again. I don't 00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:16.339 know. I think that fucking rules. And you were 00:32:16.339 --> 00:32:19.099 talking about it earlier, Evan. The strength 00:32:19.099 --> 00:32:21.240 of the dream at the heart of it is just like, 00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:23.140 yeah, like, we're getting bigger and these garage 00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:26.000 kits are doing so well, but they need to be handmade, 00:32:26.259 --> 00:32:29.920 so let's have slaves make them. Like, I think 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:34.859 that's a tremendously funny thing to just elide. 00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:38.210 You know, like, well, it's a... It's kind of 00:32:38.210 --> 00:32:40.690 a necessary evil. And, like, to get a little 00:32:40.690 --> 00:32:43.269 meta about it, like, Anno does it again when 00:32:43.269 --> 00:32:46.650 he's working on the Wind Rises, you know, with 00:32:46.650 --> 00:32:51.269 our boy Miyazaki. Like, the thing that we need 00:32:51.269 --> 00:32:55.430 to perpetuate the success of the Enterprise is 00:32:55.430 --> 00:32:59.589 ultimately, like, the unwilling hands of the 00:32:59.589 --> 00:33:02.230 market. I don't know. I think that's so fucking 00:33:02.230 --> 00:33:05.339 cool. And, I mean, like, it's one of the... I 00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:06.920 don't even know if you would call it a hidden 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:10.339 theme of Evangelion, but, like, what the people 00:33:10.339 --> 00:33:15.160 with control, Gendo, was it Fiyutsuki? Yeah. 00:33:15.259 --> 00:33:18.839 And basically all of Scylla, like, they exist 00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:24.619 to create a new kind of unwilling race of otaku. 00:33:24.859 --> 00:33:28.140 Like, they're creating people in their own image 00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:30.700 to perpetuate ends that they completely don't 00:33:30.700 --> 00:33:34.039 understand. And that is, you know, necessarily... 00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:38.799 analogous to slave labor. It's just like, but 00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:41.039 when it's your kid, when it's someone who never 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:43.059 thought they had a choice in the first place, 00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:45.779 they're not going to think about it. It's not 00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:48.079 going to be top of mind. Like, it's going to 00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.940 be Shinji, like, laying waste to ten angels and 00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:54.079 then being like, wait, why am I doing this? Wait, 00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:57.039 angels are good guys in Viper, right? And I think, 00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.140 like, the interesting thing about Otaku No Video 00:33:59.140 --> 00:34:01.900 is that you, you know, especially in the, like, 00:34:01.900 --> 00:34:04.890 get to know an otaku segment, it's like, You 00:34:04.890 --> 00:34:07.549 brought it up also earlier, Evan, like you progressively 00:34:07.549 --> 00:34:10.690 get darker and darker until you get to like this 00:34:10.690 --> 00:34:13.590 guy who doesn't even want to be on camera, whether 00:34:13.590 --> 00:34:16.349 it's because of shame or because it hurts his 00:34:16.349 --> 00:34:19.210 like black market collecting business or whatever. 00:34:19.349 --> 00:34:24.030 Like once you dive as deep as possible into the 00:34:24.030 --> 00:34:26.889 thing, it becomes atomized to a degree that is 00:34:26.889 --> 00:34:29.530 unbelievable. That's why I think like the best 00:34:29.530 --> 00:34:32.929 joke in the whole thing is. And then we'll create 00:34:32.929 --> 00:34:36.489 a theme park where all of the otaku from around 00:34:36.489 --> 00:34:38.650 the world will get together. And it's like, you 00:34:38.650 --> 00:34:40.889 know what otaku don't do? They don't get together. 00:34:42.309 --> 00:34:46.710 I love otaku. I think it rules. I think what's 00:34:46.710 --> 00:34:49.309 really interesting about fan culture pre -internet... 00:34:49.769 --> 00:34:52.869 is that otaku did have to like come together 00:34:52.869 --> 00:34:56.250 right right necessary to record off the tv and 00:34:56.250 --> 00:34:58.469 get somebody's vhs and like yeah they had to 00:34:58.469 --> 00:35:00.110 have a network and they had to have like community 00:35:00.110 --> 00:35:02.670 and all that kind of stuff to like which is why 00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:06.070 guy next could exist but i i do want to propose 00:35:06.070 --> 00:35:09.250 that it's like it's in name only it's a veneer 00:35:09.250 --> 00:35:13.619 it's kind of why i'm i think that The corporate 00:35:13.619 --> 00:35:16.440 overthrow. It's like parallel play. Like when 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:18.199 you go into that room, they're all doing their 00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:20.019 own things, but they're together in the same 00:35:20.019 --> 00:35:22.739 space. And I think it's why like, I don't know 00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:24.559 why I'm fucking blanking on the lead character's 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.500 name, but like when he gets voted off the board, 00:35:26.679 --> 00:35:29.059 it's like, wait, we all did this together. And 00:35:29.059 --> 00:35:31.579 it's like, yeah, but that wasn't really important. 00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:34.139 That was a mean to the end for more content. 00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:37.829 And at the moment it looked like. You weren't 00:35:37.829 --> 00:35:40.570 necessarily going to herald it. There were going 00:35:40.570 --> 00:35:43.030 to be better people to herald in new content. 00:35:43.269 --> 00:35:45.150 So we went with that. And it's like, so then 00:35:45.150 --> 00:35:49.389 the community becomes totally negligible. It's 00:35:49.389 --> 00:35:52.650 totally informed by capitalism. Yes. Yeah. But 00:35:52.650 --> 00:35:54.590 I also think, I also think the ideologies of 00:35:54.590 --> 00:35:57.889 those lead to a Hikikomori syndrome. Like, you 00:35:57.889 --> 00:36:00.670 know what I mean? This is like. It's the engagement 00:36:00.670 --> 00:36:04.449 with this totally false reality. And then, I 00:36:04.449 --> 00:36:06.010 mean, one of the things we haven't gotten into 00:36:06.010 --> 00:36:11.170 is the idea of the moe and the attraction to 00:36:11.170 --> 00:36:14.469 the anime characters thing. Oh, I think we're 00:36:14.469 --> 00:36:17.469 getting there. There's a really good book called 00:36:17.469 --> 00:36:20.190 Beautiful Fighting Girl by Hiroki Izuma that 00:36:20.190 --> 00:36:23.250 discusses basically the archetype of this sort 00:36:23.250 --> 00:36:26.329 of hermaphroditic female with male attributes 00:36:26.329 --> 00:36:30.090 thing that is this pornographic icon that comes 00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:33.690 from anime and that often they're underage girls 00:36:33.690 --> 00:36:36.429 that are super powered in some sort of way but 00:36:36.429 --> 00:36:38.389 then there's also like in the concept of moe 00:36:38.389 --> 00:36:41.369 there's like the more helpless character is the 00:36:41.369 --> 00:36:44.070 more moe they are and like the more retarded 00:36:44.070 --> 00:36:46.929 they are like there's all of these like weird 00:36:46.929 --> 00:36:49.909 cuteness is involved with it and there's there 00:36:49.909 --> 00:36:53.690 is a weird creepiness to the things that are 00:36:53.690 --> 00:36:58.300 considered moe The Lali Khan archetype is a Moe 00:36:58.300 --> 00:37:01.340 thing and whatnot. And I think that one of the 00:37:01.340 --> 00:37:04.429 first characters that started this... I don't 00:37:04.429 --> 00:37:06.670 know, the concept of Moe, like, many of these 00:37:06.670 --> 00:37:08.989 early anime fans fell in love with Nausicaa, 00:37:08.989 --> 00:37:11.170 from Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. But 00:37:11.170 --> 00:37:13.730 Miyazaki himself also, like, fell in love with 00:37:13.730 --> 00:37:16.570 some character on TV when he was a kid and, like, 00:37:16.590 --> 00:37:18.730 finds that to be, like, his original trauma that 00:37:18.730 --> 00:37:21.369 he's dealing with for his whole life. So there 00:37:21.369 --> 00:37:23.429 is this concept of, like, falling in love with 00:37:23.429 --> 00:37:26.369 and, like, really truly connecting to a character 00:37:26.369 --> 00:37:29.940 is this Moe. thing where it is like it is your 00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:33.239 waifu it is this thing that is you you are discarding 00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:36.179 your reality and you are living in a world where 00:37:36.179 --> 00:37:39.039 that is your girlfriend this cartoon and it doesn't 00:37:39.039 --> 00:37:40.480 need to go that far it could just be that these 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:43.460 things in this show are important like you know 00:37:43.460 --> 00:37:46.519 what i mean there's a certain an embrace of this 00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:48.800 postmodern, like the image is more important 00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:51.780 than the reality thing that does lead to an isolation 00:37:51.780 --> 00:37:56.039 and sort of a turning inwards in oneself sort 00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:58.420 of thing and appealing more and more to one's 00:37:58.420 --> 00:38:00.280 own perversions and not connecting to others 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:02.519 and that sort of thing. I think the most like 00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:04.800 extreme example of that in a talk in a video 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:08.019 are the interview segments. Yeah. The portrait 00:38:08.019 --> 00:38:10.000 of an Otaku segment. Yeah. Yeah. They're all 00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:12.559 staged. I mean, you know that for maybe the one 00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:14.630 with the American. But anyway, I was just trying 00:38:14.630 --> 00:38:17.250 to say the most extreme example is like Anno 00:38:17.250 --> 00:38:21.170 is playing the character who is playing like 00:38:21.170 --> 00:38:24.250 the porn game or whatever and just being like... 00:38:24.250 --> 00:38:26.769 He's the one who's... I thought he was the one 00:38:26.769 --> 00:38:29.809 who had the glasses on who said, yeah, I've made 00:38:29.809 --> 00:38:31.710 these glasses because they kind of get rid of 00:38:31.710 --> 00:38:35.550 the blur. Oh, maybe that's him. I can't tell 00:38:35.550 --> 00:38:37.469 because you can't see either of their faces, 00:38:37.510 --> 00:38:39.289 but I thought I read he was the one playing the 00:38:39.289 --> 00:38:40.449 game. I thought he was the one who was just jerking 00:38:40.449 --> 00:38:43.769 off the whole time. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, 00:38:43.809 --> 00:38:45.309 maybe that was him. I don't know. But the point 00:38:45.309 --> 00:38:48.469 is that most of those people are Gainax. Yeah, 00:38:48.510 --> 00:38:50.489 and they're in on the joke. Founders and individuals, 00:38:50.730 --> 00:38:53.250 yeah. And those are the segments that really 00:38:53.250 --> 00:38:56.449 do. That's what's really interesting about a 00:38:56.449 --> 00:38:58.289 Takenu video. One of the many things is that 00:38:58.289 --> 00:39:00.409 you have this whole two -part anime narrative 00:39:00.409 --> 00:39:04.719 that's like this. the sort of... Glorification. 00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:07.599 Glorification or whatever it is. And then you 00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:11.260 have these really sort of like grounded, strangely 00:39:11.260 --> 00:39:14.780 sad retrospective things of like... Because like 00:39:14.780 --> 00:39:17.199 most of those characters are dudes who like used 00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:20.420 to be otaku and are like reflecting on it. Or 00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:22.599 like... Or no, they're pretending. They're all 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:24.579 pretending that they used to be otaku. But also 00:39:24.579 --> 00:39:27.340 like this is another thing that like I think 00:39:27.340 --> 00:39:29.219 that at the time a lot of these things would 00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:32.480 play as more like over the top. and parodic where 00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:34.420 it's like the guy wearing the glasses being like 00:39:34.420 --> 00:39:36.400 it gets rid of the mosaic a little bit so i've 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:38.719 got this like digital thing that i created to 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:40.659 get rid of the mosaic so i can jerk off better 00:39:40.659 --> 00:39:43.679 that felt like a totally ridiculous goofy thing 00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:44.800 whereas now it's kind of like no that's just 00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:48.179 a society that's just like that's like yeah that's 00:39:48.179 --> 00:39:49.800 just kind of a normal and it's sad that that's 00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:52.219 real a lot and like all of those things are kind 00:39:52.219 --> 00:39:54.980 of they're understated enough that they're they're 00:39:54.980 --> 00:39:56.619 like tongue -in -cheek and they're like they're 00:39:56.619 --> 00:39:59.690 played straight but like I think that they're 00:39:59.690 --> 00:40:02.389 hilariously vicious, but you don't even feel 00:40:02.389 --> 00:40:04.530 vicious now because that's just what anime fans 00:40:04.530 --> 00:40:09.349 actually are now. Yeah, yeah. It's like you said, 00:40:09.469 --> 00:40:11.650 they're in on the joke, but also the joke is 00:40:11.650 --> 00:40:15.969 on them, and that's why it works. The only thing 00:40:15.969 --> 00:40:18.530 I have to ask is, what's up with all the little 00:40:18.530 --> 00:40:22.630 factoids in Otaku No Video? They're the best, 00:40:22.809 --> 00:40:24.969 right? What's that about? They're totally random. 00:40:25.630 --> 00:40:27.789 And they're artificial, right? They're as fake 00:40:27.789 --> 00:40:30.130 as the interviews themselves. Yeah, yeah. I mean, 00:40:30.130 --> 00:40:33.789 same with all of the infographics they have. 00:40:33.889 --> 00:40:35.909 They're great. They're the best, because there's 00:40:35.909 --> 00:40:38.989 12 participants. I've been seeing infographics 00:40:38.989 --> 00:40:41.849 like, there's 12 participants, and six of them 00:40:41.849 --> 00:40:43.369 said this, and four of them said this. So you 00:40:43.369 --> 00:40:45.570 can see, this is how otaku are. It's family feud. 00:40:45.690 --> 00:40:49.210 We asked 100 people on the street if they'd ever 00:40:49.210 --> 00:40:51.449 heard of wife feud. But it's not. It's actually 00:40:51.449 --> 00:40:56.409 like 20 people. It's so few people. do you watch 00:40:56.409 --> 00:40:59.409 anime and like none of the statistics are that 00:40:59.409 --> 00:41:01.730 outlandish like you know I mean it's all very 00:41:01.730 --> 00:41:03.889 understated comedy I think because like that 00:41:03.889 --> 00:41:06.690 is only funny because it's like it's not because 00:41:06.690 --> 00:41:09.010 it's like we're saying that all of them do this 00:41:09.010 --> 00:41:11.690 or that none of them it's just like it's just 00:41:11.690 --> 00:41:13.929 like we asked 12 people and this is to get back 00:41:13.929 --> 00:41:16.429 to this whole thing about the fans I think like 00:41:17.130 --> 00:41:19.429 What you were saying, Josh, earlier about the 00:41:19.429 --> 00:41:23.730 sort of fragility of them or the lack of self 00:41:23.730 --> 00:41:27.449 -awareness, I think whenever you make a work 00:41:27.449 --> 00:41:30.690 that is poking at that a little bit, that's like 00:41:30.690 --> 00:41:33.750 breaking their AT field, that makes them uncomfortable. 00:41:34.389 --> 00:41:37.949 Absolutely. And I think that's exactly why the 00:41:37.949 --> 00:41:41.210 last two episodes of Evangelion... are so uncomfortable. 00:41:41.630 --> 00:41:44.690 Because even if you don't fully understand it, 00:41:44.750 --> 00:41:47.070 something is poking through your AT field. Something 00:41:47.070 --> 00:41:50.710 is fucking becoming internalized that is just 00:41:50.710 --> 00:41:53.570 as hard for the average person to deal with as 00:41:53.570 --> 00:41:56.329 it is Shinji. Because I don't really think the 00:41:56.329 --> 00:41:59.809 lesson of the last two episodes of Evangelion 00:41:59.809 --> 00:42:02.860 are just for otaku. I think it's particularly 00:42:02.860 --> 00:42:05.420 important for those kinds of people. But look 00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:07.820 at the world we're living in. People are so hyper 00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:10.760 -specialized, so isolated. Evangelion has never 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:13.280 been more relevant as a message to give people. 00:42:14.130 --> 00:42:17.170 Everyone's in therapy. It's a kind of therapy 00:42:17.170 --> 00:42:20.150 that allows you to make peace with your existence 00:42:20.150 --> 00:42:22.789 and your connections with others and your relationship 00:42:22.789 --> 00:42:26.090 to pain and all this kind of stuff. And Otaku, 00:42:26.210 --> 00:42:31.150 who is finding simple, easy solace in their interests 00:42:31.150 --> 00:42:34.070 so they can avoid the pain, so they can avoid 00:42:34.070 --> 00:42:37.650 the hedgehog's dilemma of being close to others, 00:42:37.809 --> 00:42:39.730 they're the kind of person who needs to hear 00:42:39.730 --> 00:42:42.400 this message. Yeah, they're really they're really 00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:45.079 a canary in the coal mine of the postmodern culture, 00:42:45.260 --> 00:42:47.219 right, where they're the first people who are 00:42:47.219 --> 00:42:49.920 embracing the image over the reality. And so 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:51.739 they're the first people to have this problem 00:42:51.739 --> 00:42:54.519 of isolation. But now, I mean, in the post -COVID 00:42:54.519 --> 00:42:56.119 world, we all have this problem of isolation. 00:42:56.300 --> 00:42:59.400 All are living in a world where what's happening 00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:02.760 on social media is actually a real reality that 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:05.139 we have to deal with every day as opposed to 00:43:05.139 --> 00:43:07.039 like what we deal with going to and from the 00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:09.800 grocery store and work and what Trump is saying 00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:11.179 and what's happening. in the middle east and 00:43:11.179 --> 00:43:13.940 what's what's happening on netflix and what's 00:43:13.940 --> 00:43:16.260 happening on hulu these are all equal like you 00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:18.900 know and these are all realities that we live 00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:20.719 in even though we're just stuck in our houses 00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:22.760 and whatever so we're choosing which reality 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:25.199 to live in because the only real reality is the 00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:27.820 one where we're alone in a room and that's what 00:43:27.820 --> 00:43:29.179 shinji's going through that's what the otaku 00:43:29.179 --> 00:43:30.619 is going through that's what the hikikomori go 00:43:30.619 --> 00:43:33.420 through so what do you think piloting the eva 00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:37.579 means like shinji doesn't really come off as 00:43:37.579 --> 00:43:40.420 an otaku. He actually has no interests. He's 00:43:40.420 --> 00:43:43.360 actually just kind of like a empty husk of a 00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:46.860 person. And I think based on how you interpret 00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:49.159 the entire story of Evangelion and the ending 00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:53.099 and stuff, you can see him piloting the Eva as 00:43:53.099 --> 00:43:56.239 like... A community of people trying to pull 00:43:56.239 --> 00:43:58.019 him in, just like, you know, talking to a video. 00:43:58.079 --> 00:43:59.940 Like, here's something you can be interested 00:43:59.940 --> 00:44:02.920 in. Here's something worth doing. Here's something 00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:06.099 that will make others like you and make you connect 00:44:06.099 --> 00:44:08.199 to others. But it's also an easy thing for him, 00:44:08.260 --> 00:44:10.719 right? Like, he shows up in town to see his dad. 00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:14.280 A hot lady shows up and is like, hey. We have 00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:17.019 this thing for you. It's quite literally like 00:44:17.019 --> 00:44:19.980 a life on rails. You'll be stuck in this thing 00:44:19.980 --> 00:44:23.139 that is an avatar for a real person that is in 00:44:23.139 --> 00:44:27.000 a way, you know, ultimately kind of human itself. 00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:30.000 It is a biological life form. You sit inside 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.940 of it, you ride the rails upwards, and your dad 00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:35.400 tells you what to do every day. And, like, if 00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:37.619 your dad says, like, we're putting in the dummy 00:44:37.619 --> 00:44:40.239 plug, we don't need you today, that day you do 00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:43.400 nothing but think about yourself. And it's, I 00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:48.400 don't know, I found, yeah, like, it is the path 00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:51.280 of least resistance. And I think it's, like, 00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:53.960 set up that way from the jump when it's, like, 00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:57.260 this giant pipe is falling from the ceiling and, 00:44:57.300 --> 00:45:01.300 like. Shinji's fear literally raises the hand 00:45:01.300 --> 00:45:03.960 of the Eva so that, like, he doesn't have to 00:45:03.960 --> 00:45:06.219 do anything. His feelings do all of the heavy 00:45:06.219 --> 00:45:07.780 lifting. I don't know that it's his feelings 00:45:07.780 --> 00:45:11.739 there. I think that's the Eva's feelings. That's 00:45:11.739 --> 00:45:14.800 mommy. Yeah. I think that's mommy. Well, yeah. 00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:17.179 I mean, maybe that even accidentally proves the 00:45:17.179 --> 00:45:19.639 point further, right? That, like, you are kept 00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:22.300 in this, you know, the umbilical cord hasn't 00:45:22.300 --> 00:45:25.159 been cut. Right. Yeah, you're always protected 00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:28.909 and you're always told what to do. And you never, 00:45:28.929 --> 00:45:30.869 ever have to think about, like, the ramifications 00:45:30.869 --> 00:45:33.230 of it. Well, there's an easy problem to solve 00:45:33.230 --> 00:45:34.849 in front of me. I have to take care of this thing. 00:45:35.050 --> 00:45:37.630 I've been told it's bad, and my dad told me, 00:45:37.650 --> 00:45:40.449 so I believe that it's bad. Also, so did, yeah, 00:45:40.550 --> 00:45:44.550 so did my boss mom, Kitsuragi, you know. Yeah. 00:45:45.130 --> 00:45:47.429 But also his real mom. I mean, that's the big 00:45:47.429 --> 00:45:50.289 reveal in the end, like, is that, you know, they're 00:45:50.289 --> 00:45:54.110 making, like, they made the... The Magi? Yeah, 00:45:54.130 --> 00:45:56.190 the Magi. Just like they made the Magi out of 00:45:56.190 --> 00:45:59.590 Ritsuko's mom, they made Unit 1 and Unit 0, theoretically, 00:45:59.869 --> 00:46:04.550 out of Shinji's mom. And Rei. Everything is Shinji's 00:46:04.550 --> 00:46:07.989 mom. Well, Unit 2 is Asuka's mom. Yeah, Unit 00:46:07.989 --> 00:46:11.130 2 is Asuka's mom. But there's only one good mother, 00:46:11.429 --> 00:46:13.730 you guys. There's only one good one. The Magi 00:46:13.730 --> 00:46:17.800 fouls Ritsuko. the central trauma of Asuka's 00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:20.340 whole life is just, like, I came home to tell 00:46:20.340 --> 00:46:22.980 my mom about my greatest victory when I was, 00:46:23.019 --> 00:46:25.880 like, six, and, like, the central image in my 00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:28.460 memory forever is now her hanging body. It's 00:46:28.460 --> 00:46:29.920 interesting that this happened at the same time. 00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.739 You know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. She's 00:46:31.739 --> 00:46:33.539 chosen for the Eva program, and then her mom 00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:37.320 commits suicide the same day. It's almost as 00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:40.639 if the Seilei, or... What's the place above Seilei? 00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:44.400 the marduk institute yeah marduk institute exactly 00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:46.760 it's the marduk institute yeah all that stuff 00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:48.619 i mean i think i think part of the great thing 00:46:48.619 --> 00:46:50.360 of watching evangelion is that for the entire 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.320 beginning of the show you're given all of these 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:54.800 explanations of like what happened and all of 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:56.719 them are wrong like the stuff that happened at 00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:59.840 the polar ice caps with the was it a meteor that 00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:03.340 they claim and stuff then secondly impact yeah 00:47:03.340 --> 00:47:05.769 i mean yeah second impact but They claim that 00:47:05.769 --> 00:47:08.190 it was a meteor in the first place in the voiceover 00:47:08.190 --> 00:47:10.190 that the teacher is talking about in the school. 00:47:10.550 --> 00:47:13.650 Like, all of the setup of this world is lying. 00:47:13.849 --> 00:47:16.840 They also tell you that... Lilith is Adam, and 00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:18.960 then the episode before they showed you the real 00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.599 Adam that isn't. There's all these ridiculous... 00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:25.440 Yeah, there's that moment where Misato turns 00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:28.360 around to Commander Ikari, and she's like, but 00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:32.119 won't the contact of the Eva and Adam start the 00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:34.099 third impact? And then he doesn't say anything 00:47:34.099 --> 00:47:36.440 to her. She's like, fuck, I didn't know. She's 00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:41.460 just like, fuck, that was a lie too. She's like 00:47:41.460 --> 00:47:44.039 a fucking fool. Was that what her boy told her, 00:47:44.099 --> 00:47:46.170 Kaji? Or was that something she thought she could 00:47:46.170 --> 00:47:48.510 get out on her own? Kaji tells her that that's 00:47:48.510 --> 00:47:51.309 Adam, but it's Lilith. Right, right. And is that 00:47:51.309 --> 00:47:53.989 part of Kaji's plan or is it not? And does that 00:47:53.989 --> 00:47:56.409 matter? I think that a lot of these things, like 00:47:56.409 --> 00:47:59.230 what was the Marduk Institute and how many moms 00:47:59.230 --> 00:48:00.969 does Shinji have and all these things are like, 00:48:01.030 --> 00:48:04.090 a lot of it I do think is written by a guy who 00:48:04.090 --> 00:48:06.449 didn't know where he was going. I think Kaji's 00:48:06.449 --> 00:48:09.829 for Kaji. I think Kaji is just for Kaji. He's 00:48:09.829 --> 00:48:12.050 also for the CIA, right? Or is he, no, he's for 00:48:12.050 --> 00:48:15.570 Sailor. He works for Saleh and he works for Nerve. 00:48:15.590 --> 00:48:19.210 He works with both of them. He's just kind of 00:48:19.210 --> 00:48:22.150 the sleeper agent. But he just wants to know 00:48:22.150 --> 00:48:23.789 what's happening. He just wants to know what's 00:48:23.789 --> 00:48:25.789 happening, yeah. And I don't think he's ever 00:48:25.789 --> 00:48:29.670 misleading Misato. He truly loves her, and I 00:48:29.670 --> 00:48:31.849 think he's always telling her what he knows, 00:48:31.949 --> 00:48:33.250 and not everything he knows is correct. He's 00:48:33.250 --> 00:48:34.829 not always telling her what he knows, but by 00:48:34.829 --> 00:48:37.250 the end, yeah. And yeah, as much as he does love 00:48:37.250 --> 00:48:39.670 her, he's playing her. He's playing her for his 00:48:39.670 --> 00:48:42.269 own ends. The dudes with power in this show, 00:48:42.449 --> 00:48:47.840 that's what they do. Kaji and Ikari are two sides 00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:50.199 of the same coin. They're the duality of man. 00:48:50.500 --> 00:48:53.019 They're the guy who gives you sweet love and 00:48:53.019 --> 00:48:56.500 the guy who gives you tough love. And ultimately, 00:48:56.800 --> 00:49:01.940 they're both working for themselves or an ideology 00:49:01.940 --> 00:49:05.440 that's very, very shallow. It's not completely 00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:10.400 carnal, but for Ikari, he's looking at... He's 00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:12.659 kind of trying to do like the male dominant thing 00:49:12.659 --> 00:49:15.320 where it's like he's working for Sela and he's 00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:17.500 working for Nerv at the same time, just like 00:49:17.500 --> 00:49:20.760 Kaji is. And they're both playing. Right. Exactly. 00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:23.780 And it's like, for what end? And it's like, well, 00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:27.059 Akari has an end. That's Akari does have an end 00:49:27.059 --> 00:49:28.880 in mind from the beginning. And he's playing 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.679 everybody. Kaji is just kind of trying to see 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:34.400 what the fuck's happening. What do you get? I 00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:38.800 just want to know. What the fuck? I think one 00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:41.820 of the problems, and maybe you can enlighten 00:49:41.820 --> 00:49:45.300 me if you have the answer, but I truly cannot 00:49:45.300 --> 00:49:48.340 figure out what the difference is between what 00:49:48.340 --> 00:49:51.059 Gendo wants and what Sele wants. It just seems 00:49:51.059 --> 00:49:55.059 like Gendo just wants to do it first or be the 00:49:55.059 --> 00:49:57.420 one who actually initiates it. Gendo wants to 00:49:57.420 --> 00:50:00.860 do it through Shinji. Yeah, but it's just very 00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:03.099 unclear what that even means or what the point 00:50:03.099 --> 00:50:05.239 is. I guess the way he wants to do it will bring 00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:09.019 him, back to yui like and he'll like see yui 00:50:09.019 --> 00:50:12.820 again or something like that but like all of 00:50:12.820 --> 00:50:16.400 it is dead they're both death right but but it's 00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:18.380 also legacy right like that's the other thing 00:50:18.380 --> 00:50:20.820 where it's like you know that that like final 00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:23.800 little voiceover where it's like because of this 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:26.079 entire project because of the project of the 00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:29.820 avas at the end of time We will know that humans 00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:33.539 existed. And what Jendo Akari is doing is saying, 00:50:33.579 --> 00:50:36.159 like, yeah, and I did it, dude. This was my thing. 00:50:36.280 --> 00:50:39.739 I used my kid. I'm God. Right. Like, yeah, I 00:50:39.739 --> 00:50:43.460 fucked God and created eternity. But I don't 00:50:43.460 --> 00:50:46.260 think Sele has any problem with what happens. 00:50:46.420 --> 00:50:48.239 Like, I think they want the exact same thing. 00:50:48.750 --> 00:50:51.829 I don't get what the chess match is between Gendo 00:50:51.829 --> 00:50:56.730 and Seilei. I never have. It's not made any clearer 00:50:56.730 --> 00:51:00.489 in the manga. I think in the show, basically, 00:51:00.489 --> 00:51:02.630 they both want the human instrumentality project. 00:51:02.789 --> 00:51:06.210 Basically, they both want everyone to turn into 00:51:06.210 --> 00:51:08.469 the goo and become the primordial ooze again. 00:51:09.610 --> 00:51:11.989 And Seilei's fine with it being Shinji in the 00:51:11.989 --> 00:51:16.449 end, too. I just don't know why it matters how 00:51:16.449 --> 00:51:19.800 it happens. of this stuff it's never made clear 00:51:19.800 --> 00:51:22.159 like that's just like one of the most unclear 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:25.059 things like in every version of Evangelion no 00:51:25.059 --> 00:51:27.460 matter what things are explained that entire 00:51:27.460 --> 00:51:30.219 thing is just like You can never track this. 00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:33.019 It doesn't make any sense. There's like no drama 00:51:33.019 --> 00:51:35.960 to the chess match between Gendo. I would bet 00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:37.659 that there's somebody out there who can explain 00:51:37.659 --> 00:51:41.539 it to you. Maybe. But I think that it doesn't 00:51:41.539 --> 00:51:44.440 matter. I don't think it matters either. There's 00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:47.519 things that probably explain this in a computer 00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:52.019 screen in the Evangelion Sega game that never 00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:53.960 came out in America. You know what I mean? There's 00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:56.860 lore to this that people have gone into. But 00:51:56.860 --> 00:51:57.559 I think what Evan's saying... I don't think it 00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:01.110 matters. And he's right about. Right, that it's 00:52:01.110 --> 00:52:03.230 not teleologically coherent. The whole point 00:52:03.230 --> 00:52:05.130 is this is a guy who was not writing this from 00:52:05.130 --> 00:52:07.070 the beginning. Correct. He set up Sele and Nerve. 00:52:07.070 --> 00:52:10.150 These were just ideas of archetypes that then 00:52:10.150 --> 00:52:12.590 ended up combining or something because what 00:52:12.590 --> 00:52:14.570 he ended up saying was something different than 00:52:14.570 --> 00:52:18.389 what he started saying. Maybe the guy who started 00:52:18.389 --> 00:52:21.050 Om Shinrikyo could tell us what those symbols 00:52:21.050 --> 00:52:22.650 were supposed to be. I'm not going to go into 00:52:22.650 --> 00:52:25.820 the manga in detail yet, but on this point. Even 00:52:25.820 --> 00:52:29.599 Sadamoto in the manga doesn't really explain 00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:32.739 this. Yeah, and he had, like, 20 years. And he 00:52:32.739 --> 00:52:35.199 explains everything in the whole entire show 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:37.980 better than the show does. He's more interested 00:52:37.980 --> 00:52:40.840 in the lore making sense. Just for context, the 00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:43.760 manga started coming out, like, just before the 00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:47.699 show and then finished, like, in 2000. 8 or something 00:52:47.699 --> 00:52:49.820 like 2015 or something like you know what i mean 00:52:49.820 --> 00:52:52.360 it took forever to come out yeah and it is basically 00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:55.000 a direct to look that up direct adaptation like 00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:57.440 it's it's one -to -one almost there are things 00:52:57.440 --> 00:53:00.179 that are different but it's not anything like 00:53:00.179 --> 00:53:02.239 the rebuild movies where they're completely different 00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:04.519 like it's this is the exact same story and it 00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:06.940 goes to a very similar conclusion i mean by the 00:53:06.940 --> 00:53:09.400 end you'll explain more when we get to that but 00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:12.360 for most of the series it is pretty identical 00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:15.980 And he's just kind of filling in gaps and kind 00:53:15.980 --> 00:53:18.039 of providing more context and stuff. So yeah, 00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:21.380 no, you're right. The manga started in 1994 and 00:53:21.380 --> 00:53:25.059 then ended in 2013. 2013, yeah. So yeah, that's 00:53:25.059 --> 00:53:30.619 a long time to meditate on what was concluded 00:53:30.619 --> 00:53:35.239 in 97. Yeah. And the very end of the manga, there's 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:38.780 like a sort of epilogue portion that tracks like 00:53:38.780 --> 00:53:42.170 when Yui met Gendo. Okay. I don't really know 00:53:42.170 --> 00:53:45.010 why it's important. But it follows that new character 00:53:45.010 --> 00:53:48.230 from the Rebuild movies. Mari? Yeah, Mari is, 00:53:48.289 --> 00:53:50.610 like, the main character in this segment. And 00:53:50.610 --> 00:53:53.289 she, like, hates Yui because she's really jealous 00:53:53.289 --> 00:53:55.769 of Yui. And actually because she really loves 00:53:55.769 --> 00:53:57.829 Yui. So she's essentially, like, it's an Asuka 00:53:57.829 --> 00:54:01.730 dynamic, you know. And they're, like, both in 00:54:01.730 --> 00:54:04.949 school. And Yui is just, like, the smartest, 00:54:04.989 --> 00:54:07.699 most accomplished. like, most beautiful, most 00:54:07.699 --> 00:54:11.340 nice person there, you know? She's not the nerd. 00:54:11.599 --> 00:54:16.900 And Mari hates her, and part of it's also because 00:54:16.900 --> 00:54:21.599 Mari, like, loves Gendo, too. And Mari's, like, 00:54:21.619 --> 00:54:23.980 16 years old in this as well, so she's, like, 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:25.920 really young. She's apparently, like, the most 00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:28.760 advanced student in her, like, small pond, but, 00:54:28.820 --> 00:54:30.519 like, when she comes here, Yui's better than 00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:34.280 her. 16's a little old for Gendo. Yeah, exactly. 00:54:35.099 --> 00:54:36.719 But yeah, and then she just has like a little 00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:39.880 conflict. She just has like a little thing with 00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:43.340 Yui where she tells Yui how she feels and then 00:54:43.340 --> 00:54:45.820 says she's going to go like study abroad in England. 00:54:46.340 --> 00:54:49.320 And then that's like where that ends. So I have 00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:51.400 no idea what the point of that is. Interesting. 00:54:51.559 --> 00:54:55.500 But that clearly also had the reboots to look 00:54:55.500 --> 00:54:57.739 back on as well at that point because adding 00:54:57.739 --> 00:55:00.719 Mari. Yeah, yeah. Just like on that point about. 00:55:01.400 --> 00:55:04.659 just because the manga, like, does sort of explain 00:55:04.659 --> 00:55:06.699 everything a little better and does have access 00:55:06.699 --> 00:55:09.400 to the scripts and earlier versions of scripts 00:55:09.400 --> 00:55:14.059 and also the later mangas have, like, retrospects. 00:55:14.059 --> 00:55:17.400 Like, the whole series has ended. End of Evangelion's 00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:19.820 come out already. Like, it has a lot more to 00:55:19.820 --> 00:55:21.119 work with. And you would think, like, if the 00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:23.639 fan community was upset that there was no difference 00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:25.719 between Sele and Nerve, that, like, he could 00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:28.119 have fixed that. But you're saying he didn't. 00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:30.980 Yeah, but all you get is like a very detailed 00:55:30.980 --> 00:55:33.320 explanation of everything else. But then on that 00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:36.239 point, Misato just says, but Sele and your father 00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:39.400 have different goals or means to their ends or 00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:41.420 whatever. And it's like, that's all that's said. 00:55:41.500 --> 00:55:43.139 Like, there's no actual real explanation of what 00:55:43.139 --> 00:55:46.579 that difference is. In the movie and the show, 00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:48.780 it has something to do with the Lance of Longinus 00:55:48.780 --> 00:55:51.800 because Ikari just wants to use the Lance of 00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:53.760 Longinus just to get it in the atmosphere. They're 00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:54.880 like, well, we can't use the Lance. He's like, 00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:57.269 dude, we just need to use it for something. And 00:55:57.269 --> 00:55:59.250 then they use that, and then Serlei's mad that 00:55:59.250 --> 00:56:01.150 they used the lance because then they have to 00:56:01.150 --> 00:56:03.050 go get it from outer space, which they do find 00:56:03.050 --> 00:56:06.510 in the movie or something. It doesn't make any 00:56:06.510 --> 00:56:08.469 sense at all. They don't actually retrieve the 00:56:08.469 --> 00:56:10.750 lance. The lance simply just comes to Shinji. 00:56:10.929 --> 00:56:13.130 Yeah, yeah, yeah. When he's also in outer space. 00:56:13.869 --> 00:56:18.090 Yeah, I don't know. The show is fucking incredible. 00:56:18.349 --> 00:56:21.190 I don't know. Did you guys have more feelings 00:56:21.190 --> 00:56:24.849 about... the themes of the show, the last two 00:56:24.849 --> 00:56:29.349 episodes in particular, like how you feel about 00:56:29.349 --> 00:56:31.849 everything that leads up to that. And like, is 00:56:31.849 --> 00:56:33.829 all this stuff we're talking about, pointless, 00:56:33.909 --> 00:56:36.650 all this plot stuff. And does any of it matter? 00:56:36.829 --> 00:56:39.730 And is Evangelion just kind of like, what is 00:56:39.730 --> 00:56:41.690 the difference between unit zero and unit one? 00:56:42.159 --> 00:56:45.179 Yeah, sure. Like what? It's Rey's soul, which 00:56:45.179 --> 00:56:48.500 is also like Rey is kind of soulless because 00:56:48.500 --> 00:56:51.480 it's also part of Yui's soul, which is already 00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:54.539 in Unit One. And, you know, there's like, do 00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:57.380 those things matter? I think they don't. I think 00:56:57.380 --> 00:56:59.179 I think that's kind of what the end of the series 00:56:59.179 --> 00:57:01.360 says. You know what I mean? That's like part 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:03.579 of the thing that's so successful about that 00:57:03.579 --> 00:57:08.190 last episode is that one harem anime part. where 00:57:08.190 --> 00:57:10.849 at the very end it cuts to, like, the Asuka's 00:57:10.849 --> 00:57:13.590 waking up Shinji, and then, yeah, yeah, the bizarro 00:57:13.590 --> 00:57:16.449 Evangelion, where everything's sweet and happy, 00:57:16.570 --> 00:57:19.070 and, like, it's just like, oh, there's a new 00:57:19.070 --> 00:57:21.989 girl at school, and she's a little weird, and 00:57:21.989 --> 00:57:23.849 she's Rei, and he's got a crush on her, but he's 00:57:23.849 --> 00:57:26.289 actually got a girlfriend. Rei Ayanami! Hi, gang! 00:57:27.329 --> 00:57:28.989 It's very much like... I don't want to be late 00:57:28.989 --> 00:57:31.570 for school! When Anna was given this project, 00:57:31.690 --> 00:57:33.949 he was allowed to do basically whatever he wanted. 00:57:34.070 --> 00:57:37.070 Like, this was, like, just anything. Like, was 00:57:37.070 --> 00:57:39.610 kind of the deal. And he decided to write Evangelion. 00:57:39.610 --> 00:57:41.570 But, like, he could have written that instead. 00:57:41.869 --> 00:57:45.110 Like, you know what I mean? And I think the thing 00:57:45.110 --> 00:57:47.610 of showing that juxtaposition at the end is, 00:57:47.630 --> 00:57:49.889 like, very, very powerful. Because it's just, 00:57:49.929 --> 00:57:53.670 like, after such incredible, like, soul -crushing 00:57:53.670 --> 00:57:56.489 darkness and, like, brutal... Watching all these 00:57:56.489 --> 00:57:58.929 people you love be, like, dismembered and, like, 00:57:58.969 --> 00:58:01.610 destroyed. Like, psychologically destroyed. Like, 00:58:01.610 --> 00:58:04.010 having that be like, but it could have been this. 00:58:04.309 --> 00:58:07.480 Is so powerful. It's one of my favorite things 00:58:07.480 --> 00:58:09.199 about the end is that, like, it actually, like, 00:58:09.260 --> 00:58:11.980 really can get across that vibe in a way that 00:58:11.980 --> 00:58:14.260 I don't think anything else really can. It uses 00:58:14.260 --> 00:58:16.960 that Godard -ness of being able to totally drop 00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:18.980 what it's doing and do something else. But it 00:58:18.980 --> 00:58:21.820 actually does that right. It's just something 00:58:21.820 --> 00:58:23.780 that I've never, like, I've never seen anything 00:58:23.780 --> 00:58:27.280 like that in another piece of media. And I mean, 00:58:27.340 --> 00:58:30.280 like, it's playing with that from the jump. Like, 00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:32.480 off mic, Mike and I were talking a little bit 00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:36.469 about. how much I struggle with the early episodes 00:58:36.469 --> 00:58:39.610 of the series, like really the first 10. And 00:58:39.610 --> 00:58:43.489 the thing I struggle with is the nerve of it 00:58:43.489 --> 00:58:48.309 all. Like every single angel of the week feels 00:58:48.309 --> 00:58:52.449 somehow like more perfunctory than the next. 00:58:52.610 --> 00:58:55.670 But the thing that makes it kind of all worth 00:58:55.670 --> 00:58:58.610 it is that that moment at the end where we see 00:58:58.610 --> 00:59:02.250 like the potential. I mean, the life that Shinji 00:59:02.250 --> 00:59:04.489 really wants for himself where like, you know, 00:59:04.510 --> 00:59:06.449 he lives with his mom and dad and his teacher 00:59:06.449 --> 00:59:10.110 is Masato. And, you know, he has like. a crush 00:59:10.110 --> 00:59:13.329 on both like his mom, sister clone, and also 00:59:13.329 --> 00:59:15.869 the smart girl in class. Like that can either 00:59:15.869 --> 00:59:19.590 be like a disgusting and horrifying and soul 00:59:19.590 --> 00:59:22.070 crushing thing of like having a crush on this 00:59:22.070 --> 00:59:23.849 mommy figure, or it could be just a cute, funny 00:59:23.849 --> 00:59:26.030 thing. Right. You know? Right. And that's up 00:59:26.030 --> 00:59:28.369 to you. Well, I think that's what the early episodes 00:59:28.369 --> 00:59:31.369 do is that like, they present that as Masato 00:59:31.369 --> 00:59:35.530 Katsuragi. Like she is. She is that person. She 00:59:35.530 --> 00:59:37.309 is a mother figure that he's also completely 00:59:37.309 --> 00:59:39.650 and totally in love with. And they show us like 00:59:39.650 --> 00:59:42.789 a domestic environment that like, I don't know, 00:59:42.809 --> 00:59:44.670 maybe I'm telling on myself a little bit here, 00:59:44.730 --> 00:59:47.309 but I go like, that seems great. Like, I love 00:59:47.309 --> 00:59:49.590 it. Like every time the music kicks in, every 00:59:49.590 --> 00:59:53.090 time we see, yep, pen, pen, every time she has 00:59:53.090 --> 00:59:55.449 a beer for breakfast, there's something like 00:59:55.449 --> 00:59:59.719 so. idyllic and beautiful about it even though 00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:01.639 they're the only person in that apartment building 01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:04.500 and stuff yes it's like it's yeah it's it's a 01:00:04.500 --> 01:00:08.139 very those scenes are amazing they're great every 01:00:08.139 --> 01:00:11.000 moment spent in Misata's apartment when like 01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:13.300 they're just hanging out and living with one 01:00:13.300 --> 01:00:16.480 another they're like beautiful scenes I completely 01:00:16.480 --> 01:00:18.880 and totally agree and I mean like that's that 01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:21.400 payoff in the finale where it's just like yeah 01:00:21.400 --> 01:00:22.900 wouldn't it be great if we could live in this 01:00:22.900 --> 01:00:25.519 all the time and then I don't know the kind of 01:00:26.519 --> 01:00:29.380 jarring realization that like that's not that's 01:00:29.380 --> 01:00:32.599 not actually a possibility that's not a a real 01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:34.960 thing that can happen although i guess like in 01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:36.360 the movie a little bit they're kind of hitting 01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:38.940 it where it's like happiness is anywhere if you 01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:40.420 look for it you know what i mean like if you're 01:00:40.420 --> 01:00:42.280 really looking for happiness you can find it 01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:43.860 well i think i think the thing the thing that's 01:00:43.860 --> 01:00:46.860 interesting about that reality to me is like 01:00:46.860 --> 01:00:50.199 the base of what's happening to shinji is the 01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:51.780 same like if we're if we're thinking of shinji 01:00:51.780 --> 01:00:55.960 as an otaku like or or a modern hakika a depressed 01:00:55.960 --> 01:00:58.739 japanese boy if we're thinking of him as that 01:00:58.739 --> 01:01:02.949 and like the show is this post -modern world 01:01:02.949 --> 01:01:06.389 that he can live in instead of the mundane realities 01:01:06.389 --> 01:01:08.369 of his life or whatever like all of these angels 01:01:08.369 --> 01:01:10.650 all these archetypes all of this fighting and 01:01:10.650 --> 01:01:13.429 all this superhero stuff and whatever like that's 01:01:13.429 --> 01:01:15.630 all something that he's bringing to just like 01:01:15.630 --> 01:01:18.809 his mundane life and it is the same mundane life 01:01:18.809 --> 01:01:21.849 that's happening in this other harem reality 01:01:21.849 --> 01:01:24.530 and it's just like to me that's a very simple 01:01:24.530 --> 01:01:27.110 like it's it's almost been all to say but it's 01:01:27.110 --> 01:01:30.300 just like The idea that that is what we all are. 01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:32.739 We're living in a world where like we are in 01:01:32.739 --> 01:01:34.139 our apartments and then we go to work and we 01:01:34.139 --> 01:01:36.300 drive home, whatever. Like if we're living in 01:01:36.300 --> 01:01:40.320 a world where like we are constantly like dealing 01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:43.039 with the, I don't know, the terrors in the Middle 01:01:43.039 --> 01:01:44.579 East or something or whatever, like that is a 01:01:44.579 --> 01:01:46.880 very stressful world to live in. If you're living 01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.420 in a world where you really care, like you are 01:01:49.420 --> 01:01:53.130 choosing which anime you are in. You know what 01:01:53.130 --> 01:01:55.210 I mean? That's very much how we all construct 01:01:55.210 --> 01:01:56.949 our reality. And that's very much the way that 01:01:56.949 --> 01:01:59.369 it's discussed to Shinji over the course of those 01:01:59.369 --> 01:02:01.929 final two episodes. So I think it does a really 01:02:01.929 --> 01:02:04.650 good job of actually just, like, not just explaining 01:02:04.650 --> 01:02:06.750 that, but really, like, making you emotionally 01:02:06.750 --> 01:02:08.869 realize that. Where it's like, oh, this whole 01:02:08.869 --> 01:02:11.710 show is just a fantasy by a guy named Anno who 01:02:11.710 --> 01:02:14.750 has all of these sick things that are connected 01:02:14.750 --> 01:02:16.510 to these anime archetypes that he loves and whatever. 01:02:17.110 --> 01:02:20.239 And... It doesn't have to be that way. If you've 01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:21.960 got a crush on the girl that you're staying with, 01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:25.579 it doesn't need to be like, you're so disgusted 01:02:25.579 --> 01:02:27.860 because she also is a mother figure and it's 01:02:27.860 --> 01:02:30.320 horrible and she tried to take advantage of me 01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:33.400 and blah blah. It's just kind of fun and cute. 01:02:33.539 --> 01:02:35.699 It's just as easy. You can just live in that 01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:37.599 reality. Right, and that can be a real thing. 01:02:37.780 --> 01:02:39.780 You can acknowledge, oh yeah, I guess there is 01:02:39.780 --> 01:02:42.119 a mother figure element to this, but choosing 01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:45.570 to constantly... crush yourself with that information, 01:02:45.869 --> 01:02:48.230 that's the choice. That's the thing that you 01:02:48.230 --> 01:02:50.670 can just let go. I ultimately think it's a pretty 01:02:50.670 --> 01:02:54.829 solipsistic vision that the last two episodes 01:02:54.829 --> 01:02:58.869 paint. It almost explicitly says that your reality 01:02:58.869 --> 01:03:01.429 is of your making and it's all just a matter 01:03:01.429 --> 01:03:05.460 of perspective. I think part of what you were 01:03:05.460 --> 01:03:07.980 saying earlier, Josh, about Shinji being on the 01:03:07.980 --> 01:03:11.219 rails, it's because Shinji has no vision. He 01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:14.280 has no interest. He has no desires. He doesn't 01:03:14.280 --> 01:03:17.900 know what he wants out of life. He is traumatized 01:03:17.900 --> 01:03:21.699 because of his mother dying and his dad abandoning 01:03:21.699 --> 01:03:27.380 him. Shinji can't see a future since Shinji has 01:03:27.380 --> 01:03:33.480 no hope. Shinji just doesn't know how to... imagine 01:03:33.480 --> 01:03:37.440 a reality for himself and so like everyone around 01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:41.619 him cares about him and loves him enough to engage 01:03:41.619 --> 01:03:44.920 with him and keep pushing him on to be something 01:03:44.920 --> 01:03:47.760 and i don't know i guess like he doesn't have 01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:50.960 a lot of choices it's true like the ava is the 01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:54.639 only thing he has and like the constant struggle 01:03:54.639 --> 01:03:56.659 throughout the show even like even in the first 01:03:56.659 --> 01:03:58.320 10 episodes even though they're like i agree 01:03:58.320 --> 01:04:01.269 like they're the hardest to get through is that 01:04:01.269 --> 01:04:03.809 even early on, Shinji is just a character who, 01:04:03.869 --> 01:04:07.550 like, is stuck in this conflict where he doesn't 01:04:07.550 --> 01:04:11.070 know what he wants. But, like, he knows that 01:04:11.070 --> 01:04:13.969 if he does this thing, it'll, like, make him 01:04:13.969 --> 01:04:15.710 a part of this community and, like, the people 01:04:15.710 --> 01:04:18.070 will respect him. Yeah, validation from other 01:04:18.070 --> 01:04:20.949 people. And validation and whatever. There's 01:04:20.949 --> 01:04:23.409 also specifically a parental thing tied in, a 01:04:23.409 --> 01:04:25.829 family unit thing, and the parents defining the 01:04:25.829 --> 01:04:27.630 future thing that's very Japanese. Sure, exactly, 01:04:27.630 --> 01:04:29.170 and kind of finding your new family. And I do 01:04:29.170 --> 01:04:33.579 think... he refuses the call a comical amount 01:04:33.579 --> 01:04:36.239 of times. But that's really interesting. Like 01:04:36.239 --> 01:04:37.900 how many times he says, I'm not going to pilot 01:04:37.900 --> 01:04:40.510 the AVA anymore. And puts his foot down. And 01:04:40.510 --> 01:04:42.750 they're always, like, it's complicated because 01:04:42.750 --> 01:04:44.550 they're always, like, you have a choice and you 01:04:44.550 --> 01:04:47.570 can make a decision. But, like, he doesn't really 01:04:47.570 --> 01:04:49.730 have vision. He doesn't really have another choice. 01:04:49.750 --> 01:04:52.170 He doesn't know what else to do. He always comes 01:04:52.170 --> 01:04:54.429 back to the Ava because, like, the alternative 01:04:54.429 --> 01:04:57.530 is just, like, running away. Like, not doing 01:04:57.530 --> 01:04:59.750 the thing and then having nothing to replace 01:04:59.750 --> 01:05:01.969 it with. Yep. And then always just having to 01:05:01.969 --> 01:05:04.539 go back to it. And it like constantly haunts 01:05:04.539 --> 01:05:06.760 him. And he literally is being surveilled by 01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:08.699 nerve agents every time he leaves and whatever. 01:05:09.099 --> 01:05:11.260 And even if he went to like the ends of the earth, 01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:14.099 he can't really run away from his past or any 01:05:14.099 --> 01:05:16.880 of the things he's been a part of. So the show 01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:19.000 paints a complicated picture of reality where 01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:21.739 like in a lot of ways you are stuck and you don't 01:05:21.739 --> 01:05:23.460 have a lot of options. You don't have a lot of, 01:05:23.460 --> 01:05:26.500 there are like limits to everything. But then 01:05:26.500 --> 01:05:29.579 at the same time says like, none of it's actually 01:05:29.579 --> 01:05:32.409 real. And like, based on the way you look at 01:05:32.409 --> 01:05:34.789 things and the way you think about things can 01:05:34.789 --> 01:05:37.309 completely change everything like none of these 01:05:37.309 --> 01:05:39.389 people are real because they're just like facsimiles 01:05:39.389 --> 01:05:43.889 in your mind and like they're just as real as 01:05:43.889 --> 01:05:46.250 you are in everybody else's mind the you that 01:05:46.250 --> 01:05:48.550 exists in other people's minds concept and not 01:05:48.550 --> 01:05:50.489 just that but i mean like ray is the logical 01:05:50.489 --> 01:05:52.809 extension of that right in the i think it's in 01:05:52.809 --> 01:05:55.769 the movie or it's in the last episode when It's 01:05:55.769 --> 01:05:57.409 like, you're not a real person. And she says, 01:05:57.530 --> 01:06:00.329 I'm not a doll. I'm created by the things that 01:06:00.329 --> 01:06:02.690 other people see in me. Like, other people's 01:06:02.690 --> 01:06:05.389 experiences are the things that created me. And 01:06:05.389 --> 01:06:07.929 I start, like, that's my baseline. But then my 01:06:07.929 --> 01:06:10.590 experiences after that are what create me. And, 01:06:10.630 --> 01:06:13.010 like, that's something that Shinji understands 01:06:13.010 --> 01:06:16.150 a little bit about himself, but then cannot reify. 01:06:16.269 --> 01:06:18.849 He can't animate that in himself. And, like, 01:06:18.869 --> 01:06:21.780 that's what ultimately undoes him, right? Yeah, 01:06:21.800 --> 01:06:23.480 he puts his foot down. Yeah, he says he's not 01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:25.480 going to do it. But it's like, it's not that 01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:27.519 he's not going to do it. He becomes physically 01:06:27.519 --> 01:06:30.139 incapable. He breaks down completely and totally 01:06:30.139 --> 01:06:32.960 mentally. I mean, it fucking sucks too, because 01:06:32.960 --> 01:06:35.380 every time he does the job, he keeps being like, 01:06:35.579 --> 01:06:37.820 I mean, it's just being an adult, but he keeps 01:06:37.820 --> 01:06:40.199 being put up against challenges that are just 01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:42.059 very psychologically difficult to deal with. 01:06:42.179 --> 01:06:45.199 A lot of the time, it's not even him that defeats 01:06:45.199 --> 01:06:47.099 the thing. It's his mother. Like, you know what 01:06:47.099 --> 01:06:49.360 I mean? Especially early on. He just has to be 01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:51.960 there for Mommy to be able to lift the car off 01:06:51.960 --> 01:06:54.699 of him. It doesn't happen an insane amount of 01:06:54.699 --> 01:06:57.480 times. Most of the angel battles, Shinji's in 01:06:57.480 --> 01:07:00.059 control, and he's overcoming something, and he's 01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:04.219 making decisions. But every time he can't do 01:07:04.219 --> 01:07:07.199 it and he breaks down, Mommy takes over. So it 01:07:07.199 --> 01:07:08.880 literally is like a parent -child relationship 01:07:08.880 --> 01:07:12.860 where the child runs the show and controls what 01:07:12.860 --> 01:07:17.300 Mommy does until... the child can't do something 01:07:17.300 --> 01:07:20.119 for themselves. It's kind of why, like, the sync 01:07:20.119 --> 01:07:23.079 rate is an interesting thing because it's, you 01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:26.099 know, Asuka's sync rate is constantly plummeting 01:07:26.099 --> 01:07:27.800 because she's feeling further and further away 01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:30.820 from this idea of her mother. And because of 01:07:30.820 --> 01:07:36.199 her period. Well, obviously. But actually, that's 01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:38.440 why she's in that tub with blood. Yeah, it actually 01:07:38.440 --> 01:07:41.000 is her period, too. But Shinji, at the moment, 01:07:41.449 --> 01:07:44.050 he's he's most in touch with like i don't know 01:07:44.050 --> 01:07:46.210 the thing that gendo is looking for from yui 01:07:46.210 --> 01:07:48.469 those are the time where it's like his sync rate 01:07:48.469 --> 01:07:51.889 is tripled he's more his mom than ever like that 01:07:51.889 --> 01:07:54.289 is i don't know i think there's something pretty 01:07:54.289 --> 01:07:57.190 rich and deep there and then raise his mom too 01:07:57.190 --> 01:08:00.449 so it all just kind of gets so like none of that 01:08:00.449 --> 01:08:03.090 makes sense either the sync rates and what's 01:08:03.090 --> 01:08:05.190 going on, especially in the end of Evangelion 01:08:05.190 --> 01:08:08.250 with Rey merging with Lilith and becoming the 01:08:08.250 --> 01:08:11.489 giant Rey. Yeah, I genuinely don't understand. 01:08:11.489 --> 01:08:13.650 Because then she is like a giant Yui, essentially. 01:08:14.909 --> 01:08:17.630 Yeah, I think at that point we've totally sort 01:08:17.630 --> 01:08:19.369 of, again, just like the series, you've sort 01:08:19.369 --> 01:08:22.109 of dispensed with any reality. It's just that 01:08:22.109 --> 01:08:25.390 it gets to that point slowly. You know what I 01:08:25.390 --> 01:08:27.750 mean? It gives you the actual conclusions for 01:08:27.750 --> 01:08:29.729 all the characters actually dying, and you get 01:08:29.729 --> 01:08:33.069 to actually see the actual thing. At a certain 01:08:33.069 --> 01:08:35.750 point, it's just like a mashup of symbols and 01:08:35.750 --> 01:08:39.329 stuff. You know what I mean? I don't think... 01:08:39.329 --> 01:08:42.449 I mean, it vibes. It vibes so fucking hard. Exactly. 01:08:42.510 --> 01:08:44.989 Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I don't know that where 01:08:44.989 --> 01:08:47.689 Gendo is sitting on the Tree of Life is important, 01:08:47.909 --> 01:08:50.949 and I don't know that the amount of angels and 01:08:50.949 --> 01:08:54.369 where they eat off of Asuka to ingest her S2 01:08:54.369 --> 01:08:56.010 engine is important. You know what I mean? I 01:08:56.010 --> 01:08:58.310 don't think any of these things are really thought 01:08:58.310 --> 01:09:01.369 out in a way that it would be in a Spielberg 01:09:01.369 --> 01:09:04.380 or Kubrick. or whatever well they're the s2 engines 01:09:04.380 --> 01:09:07.479 man yeah yes they're building the new ava series 01:09:07.479 --> 01:09:10.020 the s2 engines it's like those are important 01:09:10.020 --> 01:09:12.539 for some reason yeah well it's all like little 01:09:12.539 --> 01:09:15.960 he's ingesting the s2 engine right right well 01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:18.420 that's it they don't have to be have the umbilical 01:09:18.420 --> 01:09:21.520 cable and stuff oh that's what the s2 engine 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:25.710 is okay But everything is a psychological playground. 01:09:26.050 --> 01:09:28.569 Like, I think about, like, Kawaru or whatever, 01:09:28.729 --> 01:09:31.850 and, like, he's the version of Shinji that Shinji 01:09:31.850 --> 01:09:33.970 wants to be, and then he's forced to kill him, 01:09:33.989 --> 01:09:35.630 you know what I mean? And it's like, you don't 01:09:35.630 --> 01:09:37.729 need that dude to be the last angel. I mean, 01:09:37.750 --> 01:09:40.229 I guess you do if you need, like, the inciting 01:09:40.229 --> 01:09:42.590 incident for Shinji is, like, the very minimal 01:09:42.590 --> 01:09:45.710 ego he has has to experience ego death at his 01:09:45.710 --> 01:09:49.630 own hands. I mean, the main thing with Kawaru... 01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:52.520 And Kwaru is the only person who's ever said 01:09:52.520 --> 01:09:56.739 I love you to Shinji. And then Kwaru pressures 01:09:56.739 --> 01:10:00.779 Shinji to kill him as like a final act of love 01:10:00.779 --> 01:10:04.699 to him. Like it's very complicated. It's a little 01:10:04.699 --> 01:10:07.380 different than the Toji situation. Yeah, it's 01:10:07.380 --> 01:10:07.760 different than the Toji situation. Which I mean 01:10:07.760 --> 01:10:10.279 we can get into. Toji in this show was supposed 01:10:10.279 --> 01:10:15.489 to die. and they basically made them show that 01:10:15.489 --> 01:10:18.510 Toji was still alive because you can't have Shinji 01:10:18.510 --> 01:10:20.630 killing children or whatever. I guess killing 01:10:20.630 --> 01:10:22.550 Quadri was okay because he was an angel, but 01:10:22.550 --> 01:10:25.989 killing Toji was not. So they made that very 01:10:25.989 --> 01:10:28.289 stupid decision that does not feel like it fits 01:10:28.289 --> 01:10:29.729 with the rest of the show. You know what I mean? 01:10:29.909 --> 01:10:32.329 It's probably the worst thing in the show. It's 01:10:32.329 --> 01:10:34.149 probably the one thing in the show that I actually 01:10:34.149 --> 01:10:39.029 wish wasn't there. And the manga changes that. 01:10:39.029 --> 01:10:41.229 Yeah, the manga kills Toji. Indeed. In death, 01:10:41.310 --> 01:10:43.569 death and rebirth, or death true to, whatever 01:10:43.569 --> 01:10:47.170 you want to call it, he also does not show the 01:10:47.170 --> 01:10:49.770 living Toji. Well, and Toji effectively goes 01:10:49.770 --> 01:10:54.029 away after that happened. When I watch it, I 01:10:54.029 --> 01:10:56.989 just pretend Toji died because it's clear that 01:10:56.989 --> 01:10:59.210 he should have. And I think that it would have 01:10:59.210 --> 01:11:00.430 been nice if they just said, like, oh, no, you 01:11:00.430 --> 01:11:02.210 didn't kill Toji, and then we never saw him again, 01:11:02.289 --> 01:11:04.789 so you know that they're lying. But, like, no, 01:11:04.869 --> 01:11:06.770 we do see him. He's missing a leg. He's in a... 01:11:06.770 --> 01:11:09.390 It's stupid. Like, and it sucks because that 01:11:09.390 --> 01:11:12.149 was an emotional thing where Shinji had to accidentally 01:11:12.149 --> 01:11:13.590 kill his friend or whatever, but then had to 01:11:13.590 --> 01:11:16.949 purposely kill his... boyfriend that's the television 01:11:16.949 --> 01:11:18.989 show of it all though right like when you have 01:11:18.989 --> 01:11:21.489 to kill toji the show's not ready to be ramping 01:11:21.489 --> 01:11:23.670 up towards its conclusion yeah but when he has 01:11:23.670 --> 01:11:26.949 to kill kuaru it is or when he chooses to it 01:11:26.949 --> 01:11:30.029 is that's a moment where we're ready for shinji's 01:11:30.029 --> 01:11:31.789 psychological break because that's how it has 01:11:31.789 --> 01:11:33.789 to shinji does have a psychological break after 01:11:33.789 --> 01:11:36.670 the after the toji thing but it's one of his 01:11:36.670 --> 01:11:38.609 false endings you know what i mean it's one of 01:11:38.609 --> 01:11:40.090 those things where it's like i finally learned 01:11:40.090 --> 01:11:42.289 my lesson and then he doesn't actually learn 01:11:42.289 --> 01:11:45.640 his lesson or with With Kawara's death, it kills 01:11:45.640 --> 01:11:47.979 something in Shinji. That's the end. It's over 01:11:47.979 --> 01:11:50.500 after that. Like, that's the moment where the 01:11:50.500 --> 01:11:52.840 show never really goes back to normal. Yeah, 01:11:52.859 --> 01:11:55.979 yeah, yeah. Not at all. Like... I don't want 01:11:55.979 --> 01:11:58.159 to shift gears too much, but I feel like it's 01:11:58.159 --> 01:12:00.239 kind of shocking that we haven't talked very 01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:03.159 much about... I don't even know how I'm going 01:12:03.159 --> 01:12:05.819 to say this. The adult -child sexual dynamic 01:12:05.819 --> 01:12:10.350 of... Everyone? Yeah, I mean, like... To be frank, 01:12:10.449 --> 01:12:12.909 there's a lot of perverted shit in this show, 01:12:13.010 --> 01:12:17.329 but it's like, yeah, it's aware of it. It's using 01:12:17.329 --> 01:12:20.729 all those gross anime trends that it has a reputation 01:12:20.729 --> 01:12:23.369 for that you were talking about. It's examining. 01:12:23.789 --> 01:12:26.510 But I guess I'll highlight two particular relationships 01:12:26.510 --> 01:12:29.909 that I think are the most interesting. I guess 01:12:29.909 --> 01:12:32.869 I have a little theory on them, but they're almost 01:12:32.869 --> 01:12:37.090 certainly wrong. the Mizato and Shinji relationship 01:12:37.090 --> 01:12:41.289 and the Kaji Asuka relationship or non -relationships 01:12:41.289 --> 01:12:43.270 there. Sure, sure. Like, I think about the... 01:12:43.270 --> 01:12:45.510 And the Akari Bray relationship. Yeah, I mean, 01:12:45.529 --> 01:12:47.510 that's a good point. It's a little more toxic. 01:12:47.529 --> 01:12:52.050 But, you know, they're obviously all in a way 01:12:52.050 --> 01:12:54.729 kind of about management. That's, like, where 01:12:54.729 --> 01:12:56.930 I come down on them. Like, especially, like, 01:12:56.970 --> 01:13:01.079 Mizato's last moment. She's using... her sexuality 01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:04.439 as a professional tool you know what i mean in 01:13:04.439 --> 01:13:07.020 the same way that kaji is and that's why i kind 01:13:07.020 --> 01:13:10.119 of talking about in the um in the end at the 01:13:10.119 --> 01:13:12.079 end of evangelion when she says like yeah when 01:13:12.079 --> 01:13:14.020 you get back i'll i'll show you everything else 01:13:14.020 --> 01:13:16.659 she gets she gives him a grown -up kiss yep and 01:13:16.659 --> 01:13:19.159 says when you get back i mean she knows she's 01:13:19.159 --> 01:13:21.439 gonna die whatever it's right yeah but she also 01:13:21.439 --> 01:13:23.720 she does this earlier in the series too exactly 01:13:23.720 --> 01:13:26.300 on the bed yep she puts her hand on his hand 01:13:26.300 --> 01:13:29.260 and then she makes a pass at him yep like terrified 01:13:29.260 --> 01:13:32.210 like and the boundary has been crossed. And so 01:13:32.210 --> 01:13:34.170 you're just like, all right, fuck you then. I 01:13:34.170 --> 01:13:36.010 mean, this is also the other thing about just 01:13:36.010 --> 01:13:38.609 how all these characters are fucking damaged, 01:13:38.770 --> 01:13:43.550 dude. Shinji is not the unique one. In the end, 01:13:43.590 --> 01:13:46.069 they all get a psychological breakdown pretty 01:13:46.069 --> 01:13:48.600 much. Yep, exactly. But that's, you know who 01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:50.500 else is damaged? It's all of those people in 01:13:50.500 --> 01:13:53.220 that harem anime, but they're having a good time. 01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:55.359 You know what I mean? Yeah, it's just a different 01:13:55.359 --> 01:13:57.920 perspective. Yeah, I guess, like, Masato's ambivalence 01:13:57.920 --> 01:14:00.699 about her sexuality, about, like, being a sexual 01:14:00.699 --> 01:14:04.140 person, like, it makes me, you know, not to, 01:14:04.140 --> 01:14:07.539 like, go too far afield, but, like, the ending 01:14:07.539 --> 01:14:10.140 of Love and Pop, you know, one of those auto 01:14:10.140 --> 01:14:12.479 live -action movies, when it's just, like, think 01:14:12.479 --> 01:14:16.199 about... There's this someone out there who would 01:14:16.199 --> 01:14:18.659 hate to see you being objectified effectively. 01:14:18.979 --> 01:14:22.529 And that's how Masato thinks of herself. Like, 01:14:22.550 --> 01:14:24.810 Masato thinks of herself where it's like, I hated 01:14:24.810 --> 01:14:27.550 my dad and, you know, he died saving me or whatever. 01:14:27.869 --> 01:14:30.029 But also, like, I hate to think that there's 01:14:30.029 --> 01:14:32.949 a father figure out there that would see me sexualized. 01:14:33.250 --> 01:14:36.229 But also, she's constantly trying to, like, usher 01:14:36.229 --> 01:14:39.149 in a sexual era for the people who are, like, 01:14:39.149 --> 01:14:42.050 in her familial circle. I think that's part of 01:14:42.050 --> 01:14:43.810 what's happening at the end of the series where 01:14:43.810 --> 01:14:47.210 you have the shot of Shinji just watching Masato 01:14:47.210 --> 01:14:49.689 getting fucked. Yes. And she's like, don't let 01:14:49.689 --> 01:14:52.949 him see me like this. And is that vulnerability? 01:14:53.229 --> 01:14:57.609 Is that not being in control? Or is it what she 01:14:57.609 --> 01:15:00.350 says to Kaji? Like, I don't like that I want 01:15:00.350 --> 01:15:04.050 to be dirty. The question really is, is that 01:15:04.050 --> 01:15:07.149 Misato in that last episode? Or is that the Misato 01:15:07.149 --> 01:15:10.210 that exists in Shinji's mind? Because Shinji 01:15:10.210 --> 01:15:13.890 is imagining Misato being fucked by Kaji. And 01:15:13.890 --> 01:15:17.829 does it have to be? Like, or is this instrumentalities 01:15:17.829 --> 01:15:20.989 happening? And so, and does it matter? It all 01:15:20.989 --> 01:15:24.149 expresses the same pathos and the same kind of 01:15:24.149 --> 01:15:28.029 like therapeutic reckoning with your trauma so 01:15:28.029 --> 01:15:31.729 that you can deal with the pain and pleasure 01:15:31.729 --> 01:15:34.590 of connecting with people. Yeah. It's almost 01:15:34.590 --> 01:15:37.130 like Kashi has that hidden thesis that he says 01:15:37.130 --> 01:15:38.850 a handful of times to a handful of characters. 01:15:38.890 --> 01:15:42.149 Like, Oh, what do you not like pain? And it's, 01:15:42.149 --> 01:15:45.899 you know, You know, Shinji... Do you not like 01:15:45.899 --> 01:15:48.140 pain? Of course I don't like pain. Exactly. But 01:15:48.140 --> 01:15:50.619 I guess what Kashi's saying is like, no, I do 01:15:50.619 --> 01:15:53.159 like it. That's what shows me I'm alive. Or like, 01:15:53.180 --> 01:15:55.979 I like being the person who can inflict it. I 01:15:55.979 --> 01:15:58.239 like being a person with power. And he's telling 01:15:58.239 --> 01:16:00.239 Shinji, like, don't worry, dude. One day you'll 01:16:00.239 --> 01:16:03.760 like it too. Being a man. Yeah, there's something 01:16:03.760 --> 01:16:06.000 kind of dark about that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, 01:16:06.020 --> 01:16:08.979 all of Shinji's father figures and mother figures 01:16:08.979 --> 01:16:10.579 or whatever, there's something very dark about. 01:16:11.500 --> 01:16:15.659 It makes me think about that scene in Louie when 01:16:15.659 --> 01:16:18.840 Louie's talking to that old guy. How many legs 01:16:18.840 --> 01:16:22.760 does this dog have? Three legs? No, wrong. The 01:16:22.760 --> 01:16:28.279 answer is he's got plenty. No, but, yeah, when 01:16:28.279 --> 01:16:30.800 he's saying how much he's hurting, like how much 01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:33.640 he misses and all this stuff, and the old guy 01:16:33.640 --> 01:16:37.159 is just like. You're a fucking idiot. Like, that's 01:16:37.159 --> 01:16:39.920 what love is. Love is the pain. Like, you're 01:16:39.920 --> 01:16:42.319 so fucking lucky that you're in pain right now 01:16:42.319 --> 01:16:44.600 and you miss someone. Like, what the fuck do 01:16:44.600 --> 01:16:47.199 you think love is? Like, you're so fucking stupid 01:16:47.199 --> 01:16:49.439 and you're missing out on it. It's just like, 01:16:49.560 --> 01:16:51.600 it feels like the gaji thing where it's just 01:16:51.600 --> 01:16:54.300 like, dude, like you, like once you learn how 01:16:54.300 --> 01:16:57.939 important pain is. to like appreciating life 01:16:57.939 --> 01:17:01.159 you can appreciate your pain your pain makes 01:17:01.159 --> 01:17:04.680 you feel alive your pain is something to cherish 01:17:04.680 --> 01:17:07.619 or whatever like it's a really weird interesting 01:17:07.619 --> 01:17:10.140 perspective shift i mean we can pin down why 01:17:10.140 --> 01:17:15.319 this show is successful with goth kids yeah i 01:17:15.319 --> 01:17:17.359 mean but i think you can pin down the reason 01:17:17.359 --> 01:17:19.680 why the show is ultimately popular with lots 01:17:19.680 --> 01:17:21.939 of people oh yeah i mean of course you know like 01:17:21.939 --> 01:17:25.210 we're all sadomasochists in some way We all, 01:17:25.329 --> 01:17:28.270 yeah, we all have the hedgehog's dilemma, especially, 01:17:28.369 --> 01:17:31.210 you know, when you get hurt by people or people 01:17:31.210 --> 01:17:33.909 die, you know, people betray you, whatever it 01:17:33.909 --> 01:17:37.789 is. It just becomes a lot harder to navigate 01:17:37.789 --> 01:17:39.829 connections with others and being vulnerable 01:17:39.829 --> 01:17:42.510 and like opening yourself up in a way where you 01:17:42.510 --> 01:17:45.489 can feel that pain again. But I think if you 01:17:45.489 --> 01:17:48.270 never open yourself up to that pain, you don't 01:17:48.270 --> 01:17:51.529 get any of those beautiful pleasures either. 01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:53.960 One of the things that happens at the end of 01:17:53.960 --> 01:17:56.520 the manga during the instrumentality is that 01:17:56.520 --> 01:18:00.020 you could interpret this as being the ending 01:18:00.020 --> 01:18:02.779 of the show and the end of Evangelion as well, 01:18:02.880 --> 01:18:06.779 but the manga really clearly interprets or lays 01:18:06.779 --> 01:18:09.829 out the idea that Shinji really does have to 01:18:09.829 --> 01:18:12.430 make a choice about instrumentality. Right, right, 01:18:12.449 --> 01:18:14.069 right. Shinji actually gets to make the choice 01:18:14.069 --> 01:18:16.449 of whether or not everyone will be a single entity 01:18:16.449 --> 01:18:19.229 or whether or not they will all go back to the 01:18:19.229 --> 01:18:21.729 lives of being individuals. And the movie, actually. 01:18:21.930 --> 01:18:24.090 Like, at the end of the movie, he chooses to 01:18:24.090 --> 01:18:26.250 recreate the reality with Asuka. Yeah, yeah, 01:18:26.250 --> 01:18:29.140 yeah. and be the new Adam and Eve. That's one 01:18:29.140 --> 01:18:31.899 way of interpreting it, which is not really a 01:18:31.899 --> 01:18:34.939 way I did before. I just always felt like the 01:18:34.939 --> 01:18:38.680 congratulations ending of the show and then the 01:18:38.680 --> 01:18:40.920 choking Asuka on the beach ending of the movie, 01:18:41.000 --> 01:18:43.279 I just always felt like both were so abstract 01:18:43.279 --> 01:18:47.619 that I never really interpreted them as him making 01:18:47.619 --> 01:18:51.260 a choice to actually reconstruct the world in 01:18:51.260 --> 01:18:54.060 a plot sense. The ending of the show, I always 01:18:54.060 --> 01:18:56.659 imagined, yeah, he chooses to live. He chooses 01:18:56.659 --> 01:18:58.859 boundaries. He chooses the floor, and then he 01:18:58.859 --> 01:19:01.920 chooses people. It reconstructs the reality. 01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:06.000 No, you're right. Exactly. You're right. I just 01:19:06.000 --> 01:19:10.220 think reading the manga made that all really 01:19:10.220 --> 01:19:13.560 clear in a way that wasn't really the way I interpreted 01:19:13.560 --> 01:19:16.920 it before. Because even that whole thing of reconstructing 01:19:16.920 --> 01:19:18.659 the reality, you're right, that makes sense in 01:19:18.659 --> 01:19:21.279 a plot way. He's learning the safety of limitations. 01:19:23.150 --> 01:19:25.130 It's just done as, you know, what's it called? 01:19:25.369 --> 01:19:27.149 Chuckamuck or whatever. Exactly. It's just done 01:19:27.149 --> 01:19:29.350 as Chuckamuck. But, you know, when I initially 01:19:29.350 --> 01:19:31.210 saw that, I just felt like that was such an interesting 01:19:31.210 --> 01:19:34.970 philosophical musing. I didn't really see it 01:19:34.970 --> 01:19:37.369 as a plot thing. Because plot's basically gone 01:19:37.369 --> 01:19:38.930 at that point and we're all just working with 01:19:38.930 --> 01:19:40.550 symbols. But that is what's happening in the 01:19:40.550 --> 01:19:44.569 manga. There's a much bigger emphasis on Shinji's 01:19:44.569 --> 01:19:47.949 relationship with Rei in the manga. And he has 01:19:47.949 --> 01:19:52.090 a giant internal monologue with Rei at the end 01:19:52.090 --> 01:19:56.130 about whether or not to let everything fade into 01:19:56.130 --> 01:20:00.449 one or to reconstruct everybody. He has that 01:20:00.449 --> 01:20:02.510 conversation with Rei in the movie too. Yeah, 01:20:02.590 --> 01:20:07.409 and this emphasis on just the pain of having 01:20:07.409 --> 01:20:11.270 AT fields, but how the pain also leads to the 01:20:11.270 --> 01:20:14.890 pleasure. Shinji describes the primordial ooze 01:20:14.890 --> 01:20:17.050 as a place of nothing. It just feels like you're 01:20:17.050 --> 01:20:19.989 dead. There's no pain, but there's also no happiness. 01:20:20.069 --> 01:20:24.390 There's just nothing here. And so I would rather 01:20:24.390 --> 01:20:28.609 go back to the pain of living if that means having 01:20:28.609 --> 01:20:35.109 those warm, beautiful moments. and Shinji reconstructs 01:20:35.109 --> 01:20:38.250 reality at the end of the manga. So the very 01:20:38.250 --> 01:20:40.310 end of the manga is very similar to the Bizarro 01:20:40.310 --> 01:20:43.689 world. It just feels like an alternate version 01:20:43.689 --> 01:20:46.350 of reality. Is Shinji's mom alive in that one 01:20:46.350 --> 01:20:49.770 too? In the Bizarro reality? Yeah, in the manga 01:20:49.770 --> 01:20:53.130 Bizarro. No, you don't see his parents. Because 01:20:53.130 --> 01:20:54.670 I think it's very interesting that Yui's alive 01:20:54.670 --> 01:20:56.829 in the Bizarro reality at the end of the show 01:20:56.829 --> 01:21:00.069 because it implies that Yui... is alive. You 01:21:00.069 --> 01:21:02.850 know what I mean? And that Yui is on the show 01:21:02.850 --> 01:21:07.109 as Unit 1, just like Dad is on the show as the 01:21:07.109 --> 01:21:10.909 head of NERV. No, exactly. The tragedy of the 01:21:10.909 --> 01:21:12.449 death of his mother may not even be the thing. 01:21:12.449 --> 01:21:14.130 It's just his inability to connect with his mother 01:21:14.130 --> 01:21:15.689 because he's not growing up and he's obsessed 01:21:15.689 --> 01:21:18.350 with the anime. But also having Yui around and 01:21:18.350 --> 01:21:22.109 with Jendo means that Ray is not his mom. It 01:21:22.109 --> 01:21:25.869 means that she is something safe to Lost Avenue. 01:21:25.869 --> 01:21:29.989 Yeah, exactly. That too. But also, Rei is sort 01:21:29.989 --> 01:21:33.470 of like the soulmate for Shinji in a lot of ways. 01:21:33.529 --> 01:21:35.250 Even though there is, like, an attraction to 01:21:35.250 --> 01:21:38.329 Asuka, Rei really is the archetype of, like, 01:21:38.390 --> 01:21:41.250 I'm falling for a person who reminds me of mom. 01:21:41.909 --> 01:21:46.350 Yeah, but that's why Anno rejects it in the end. 01:21:47.250 --> 01:21:48.909 Yeah, exactly. Like, a lot of this has to do 01:21:48.909 --> 01:21:51.430 with his mommy issues and whatever, and his attraction 01:21:51.430 --> 01:21:54.029 to this subservient, like, maid archetype and 01:21:54.029 --> 01:21:57.350 stuff is not... Asuka's a real person. Like, 01:21:57.350 --> 01:21:59.930 that's... Asuka is a real person and Asuka is 01:21:59.930 --> 01:22:03.550 complicated and filled with trauma. And he has 01:22:03.550 --> 01:22:05.430 to deal with that person outside of himself. 01:22:05.609 --> 01:22:07.149 Rei is not a real person. There's nothing to 01:22:07.149 --> 01:22:09.210 deal with with Rei. Rei is a fantasy. She's a 01:22:09.210 --> 01:22:12.250 jerk -off fantasy for anime nerds. She's fan 01:22:12.250 --> 01:22:15.470 service and it's an archetype that is that. Anno 01:22:15.470 --> 01:22:17.170 is trying to make that archetype as uncomfortable 01:22:17.170 --> 01:22:19.710 as possible. I don't think that he's trying to 01:22:19.710 --> 01:22:21.829 say that this is the soulmate for Shinji. I think 01:22:21.829 --> 01:22:23.829 he's trying to say, like, yeah, in anime, this 01:22:23.829 --> 01:22:25.350 is the soulmate for Shinji. Isn't that fucked 01:22:25.350 --> 01:22:27.350 up? And this is what he wants. He wants the safest 01:22:27.350 --> 01:22:29.149 possible thing that reminds him of his mother, 01:22:29.210 --> 01:22:31.210 that will protect him in every conceivable circumstance, 01:22:31.390 --> 01:22:34.199 and will ask... Nothing of him, either emotionally 01:22:34.199 --> 01:22:37.199 or physically, unless he wants it. Right. That's 01:22:37.199 --> 01:22:40.060 another pretty big difference in the manga, which 01:22:40.060 --> 01:22:43.060 a lot of these differences really do speak to... 01:22:43.060 --> 01:22:46.800 Satomoto versus Anno. Yeah, Satomoto versus Anno, 01:22:46.800 --> 01:22:50.619 just their sensibilities. The way Anno is using 01:22:50.619 --> 01:22:55.159 Shinji as a vector for him, and Satomoto is doing 01:22:55.159 --> 01:22:58.680 something very similar in his version. I wouldn't 01:22:58.680 --> 01:23:00.520 say much more, but Shinji is absolutely much 01:23:00.520 --> 01:23:04.359 less of a doormat in the manga. He even tries 01:23:04.359 --> 01:23:07.399 to swing at Gendo at one point. He actually tries 01:23:07.399 --> 01:23:11.520 to physically attack his father. Nice. That's 01:23:11.520 --> 01:23:17.020 what men do. Yeah, and he's slightly more spunky 01:23:17.020 --> 01:23:19.300 and communicative and whatever. And there's just 01:23:19.300 --> 01:23:21.720 a lot more time spent with Shinji and his inner 01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:24.899 monologue in the manga. But another thing the 01:23:24.899 --> 01:23:28.159 manga does more with is... It tries to do a little 01:23:28.159 --> 01:23:31.020 bit more with Rei, kind of, like, becoming a 01:23:31.020 --> 01:23:33.500 real person. Okay. Sort of, like, gaining a little 01:23:33.500 --> 01:23:36.779 bit more personhood and doing that through her 01:23:36.779 --> 01:23:39.899 connection with Shinji. Okay. And, like, the 01:23:39.899 --> 01:23:42.640 way he makes her feel. And ultimately, in the 01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:46.460 end, like, she falls in love with Shinji and 01:23:46.460 --> 01:23:50.100 she rejects Gendo. Interesting. But also, like, 01:23:50.180 --> 01:23:53.659 she dies and that version of her is essentially 01:23:53.659 --> 01:23:56.890 gone. And the new one that shows up is, like, 01:23:56.909 --> 01:24:00.550 not there for very long before the ending. And, 01:24:00.550 --> 01:24:02.029 like, Shinji doesn't really have much of a relationship 01:24:02.029 --> 01:24:06.010 with the new one. Ray 3. Ray 3, yeah. But Ray 01:24:06.010 --> 01:24:08.189 3 still has, like... Which is probably Ray, like, 01:24:08.189 --> 01:24:11.029 30. Ray 3 that we see in the show. Well, I think 01:24:11.029 --> 01:24:14.949 me calling it Ray 3, like, I buy that enough. 01:24:15.229 --> 01:24:17.069 Like, I feel like the first one was the child. 01:24:17.390 --> 01:24:19.609 It just got a lot of backups. I know, but the 01:24:19.609 --> 01:24:22.529 first one was the child. So, obviously, Ray, 01:24:22.729 --> 01:24:25.420 like... starts as a child and grows up so that's 01:24:25.420 --> 01:24:26.859 what's weird about all the adult ones already 01:24:26.859 --> 01:24:30.560 in the plug or whatever but um i would say the 01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:32.260 first one is the little kid that gets choked 01:24:32.260 --> 01:24:36.239 out by you know ritsuku's mom and then the second 01:24:36.239 --> 01:24:38.760 one is the one that we all know in the show right 01:24:38.760 --> 01:24:41.199 but theoretically there could be many in between 01:24:41.199 --> 01:24:43.460 there there could be it doesn't matter as well 01:24:43.460 --> 01:24:46.880 doesn't really matter as well but how many times 01:24:46.880 --> 01:24:49.199 gendo got a little too excited choking her out 01:24:51.920 --> 01:24:54.659 That I think is like the end in the movie where 01:24:54.659 --> 01:24:56.720 he just grabs her tit and his hand goes into 01:24:56.720 --> 01:25:03.579 her. It's so molesty. It's so creepy. Yeah, Gendo's 01:25:03.579 --> 01:25:06.439 creepy. Gendo's kind of a monster. Gendo's a 01:25:06.439 --> 01:25:08.840 bad guy. And he is a bad guy because he just 01:25:08.840 --> 01:25:11.659 wants to destroy humanity. He just wants like... 01:25:11.800 --> 01:25:13.520 Is that what he wants? I mean, that's kind of 01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:15.579 the thing. I mean, I guess part of it is that 01:25:15.579 --> 01:25:18.220 he wants to make his son a man, right? And his 01:25:18.220 --> 01:25:21.199 definition of a man is himself or something and 01:25:21.199 --> 01:25:23.859 fighting these angels and doing his bidding. 01:25:24.100 --> 01:25:26.979 I think in the manga, at least, that's another 01:25:26.979 --> 01:25:28.960 thing that's fleshed out a little more that you 01:25:28.960 --> 01:25:32.359 don't need to accept as part of Anno's version. 01:25:32.460 --> 01:25:35.100 But Gendo is also just a severely broken person, 01:25:35.159 --> 01:25:39.210 too. Right. And Gendo is also just like... More 01:25:39.210 --> 01:25:41.210 like Shinji than you would admit. He just wants 01:25:41.210 --> 01:25:44.970 to live in the primordial ooze and not have to 01:25:44.970 --> 01:25:47.149 deal with pain anymore. Right. Because of his 01:25:47.149 --> 01:25:49.409 trauma of losing the only person that he loved 01:25:49.409 --> 01:25:52.109 and that accepted him. Exactly. The only person 01:25:52.109 --> 01:25:53.710 who accepted him for who he was and whatever. 01:25:53.949 --> 01:25:55.909 He also had his trauma and blah, blah, blah. 01:25:57.109 --> 01:26:00.329 They all do. Every character. Even the ones that 01:26:00.329 --> 01:26:02.970 aren't really put under a microscope. They're 01:26:02.970 --> 01:26:06.100 like hints. Oh, yeah. Nobody has a mom. I mean, 01:26:06.100 --> 01:26:10.680 Fiutski being in love with Yui as well. I love 01:26:10.680 --> 01:26:12.920 how in the end of Evangelion when they become 01:26:12.920 --> 01:26:16.779 the liquid, Rey becomes whoever their person 01:26:16.779 --> 01:26:19.460 was or whoever they were in love with or whoever 01:26:19.460 --> 01:26:22.520 their mom was or just whoever gave them comfort. 01:26:22.680 --> 01:26:24.699 I can't really, I don't know who exactly. Remember 01:26:24.699 --> 01:26:27.289 the programmer? Yeah, the guy on the control 01:26:27.289 --> 01:26:29.649 desk with the glasses whose name I can't remember. 01:26:30.409 --> 01:26:33.109 Misato shows up for him. Oh, no, no, no. Who's 01:26:33.109 --> 01:26:36.529 the one who's just surrounded by rays and he's 01:26:36.529 --> 01:26:40.449 screaming? Oh, the other programmer. Yeah, I 01:26:40.449 --> 01:26:45.949 love that. I love that one, man. That is his 01:26:45.949 --> 01:26:49.430 desires. And he isn't even, you know what I mean? 01:26:49.569 --> 01:26:53.500 He's just like, no! I'm not this person. And 01:26:53.500 --> 01:26:56.539 it's like, that is, that is Anno for, for the 01:26:56.539 --> 01:26:59.659 otaku fans who love Ray. Like, you know what 01:26:59.659 --> 01:27:02.279 I mean? That is the most horrible death of anybody 01:27:02.279 --> 01:27:05.279 in the series. He's just surrounded by the children. 01:27:05.300 --> 01:27:08.060 He wants to fuck like screaming. Yeah. His, his 01:27:08.060 --> 01:27:10.720 deep unchecked desire is being the otaku killer. 01:27:10.939 --> 01:27:14.399 Nope. Exactly. Exactly. He just wants to eat 01:27:14.399 --> 01:27:19.199 Ray. So fucked up. Yeah, and there's the girl 01:27:19.199 --> 01:27:22.659 who's in love with Ritsuko and the guy who's 01:27:22.659 --> 01:27:25.979 in love with Misato and all that. It's all very 01:27:25.979 --> 01:27:30.380 sweet, actually. When she types, I love you, 01:27:30.439 --> 01:27:32.380 and then she looks up at her, it's very sweet. 01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:35.500 But that's also just like a really, it's so sad 01:27:35.500 --> 01:27:37.960 that like... It's such an interesting moment 01:27:37.960 --> 01:27:42.039 of pathos that happens out of left field. Those 01:27:42.039 --> 01:27:44.640 characters aren't really dug into at all. Exactly. 01:27:44.760 --> 01:27:47.279 But it's amazing how much you get out of those 01:27:47.279 --> 01:27:49.880 moments. Because it implies the eternal lives 01:27:49.880 --> 01:27:52.319 of everybody that you haven't known. Yeah, it's 01:27:52.319 --> 01:27:56.619 intimate. There's this unrequited, unspoken desire 01:27:56.619 --> 01:27:59.399 that each of these characters have that is unfulfilled. 01:27:59.800 --> 01:28:02.840 And we're suddenly intimate with them and their 01:28:02.840 --> 01:28:05.539 internal thoughts because we are all becoming 01:28:05.539 --> 01:28:08.579 this. It really gets across the whole idea. But 01:28:08.579 --> 01:28:10.539 it's not just that. Is there anything more depressing 01:28:10.539 --> 01:28:13.479 than being like the person who's basically the 01:28:13.479 --> 01:28:17.279 Reaper's Scythe is like my PMC fucking boss. 01:28:17.779 --> 01:28:20.880 Like that sucks so bad. They don't even sleep 01:28:20.880 --> 01:28:23.720 at home. Those guys. At one point, they're saying, 01:28:23.800 --> 01:28:24.960 like, oh, well, at least you get to sleep at 01:28:24.960 --> 01:28:28.319 your house. Like, these people don't leave. They're 01:28:28.319 --> 01:28:31.779 part of a fascist organization. These people, 01:28:31.840 --> 01:28:34.000 like, who knows if they had any choice in whether 01:28:34.000 --> 01:28:36.880 they got these jobs. Like, the kids don't. Their 01:28:36.880 --> 01:28:39.159 mothers were murdered, and they were put in this 01:28:39.159 --> 01:28:41.479 school, and they're made to be, like, nobody 01:28:41.479 --> 01:28:44.840 has any choice. This is all constructed by... 01:28:45.580 --> 01:28:48.199 nerve and and the marduk institute but it's also 01:28:48.199 --> 01:28:50.600 the stability that comes from trauma right where 01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:52.300 it's just like i don't care if it fucking means 01:28:52.300 --> 01:28:54.479 anything i'll take anything that feels like structure 01:28:54.479 --> 01:28:57.420 yeah yeah i guess like when we keep saying like 01:28:57.420 --> 01:28:59.680 does it does any of it matter like after watching 01:28:59.680 --> 01:29:02.619 ritual and being like it's all about like I just 01:29:02.619 --> 01:29:04.460 miss my mom and I don't want to be lonely and 01:29:04.460 --> 01:29:07.479 anxious anymore. You know, I guess that's what 01:29:07.479 --> 01:29:11.079 matters. The end of ritual is just like a therapy 01:29:11.079 --> 01:29:15.300 session. Did you guys go, did you guys go through 01:29:15.300 --> 01:29:16.880 the credits by the way, all the way at the end 01:29:16.880 --> 01:29:18.439 of the credits, the thing that comes up at the 01:29:18.439 --> 01:29:21.560 end of the credits. Wait, no, I didn't. At the 01:29:21.560 --> 01:29:24.140 very end of the credits, I, I read this as like 01:29:24.140 --> 01:29:29.539 supremely malevolent. It says, uh, beyond the 01:29:29.539 --> 01:29:34.699 33rd day, Unknown. That's the last card that 01:29:34.699 --> 01:29:37.119 comes up. And I was just like, oh, holy shit. 01:29:39.279 --> 01:29:43.300 Stories don't really end. Yep. Or they do abruptly. 01:29:43.960 --> 01:29:46.460 Can we hold this thought and take a break because 01:29:46.460 --> 01:30:05.140 we're two hours in? Absolutely. All right, so 01:30:05.140 --> 01:30:07.380 I guess the one thing that got brought up a little 01:30:07.380 --> 01:30:09.319 bit earlier but we didn't really get into, and 01:30:09.319 --> 01:30:11.100 part of it's that I don't really know that I 01:30:11.100 --> 01:30:14.439 have a good answer for it, is how do we think 01:30:14.439 --> 01:30:19.479 of piloting the AVA? What do you think the archetype 01:30:19.479 --> 01:30:22.439 is that's being expressed? We've talked a little 01:30:22.439 --> 01:30:26.989 bit about how on our deals with archetypes. question 01:30:26.989 --> 01:30:29.069 i asked but yeah we never really answered we 01:30:29.069 --> 01:30:31.229 kind of we got off and started talking about 01:30:31.229 --> 01:30:32.890 archetypes in general and how he's turning things 01:30:32.890 --> 01:30:34.949 on their heads and i think we didn't even really 01:30:34.949 --> 01:30:37.949 get into that but You know, like Asuka is a certain 01:30:37.949 --> 01:30:40.430 type of archetype that never has, you know, bad 01:30:40.430 --> 01:30:42.970 things don't happen to that character. And, I 01:30:42.970 --> 01:30:45.829 don't know, the Rei character where the panties 01:30:45.829 --> 01:30:48.069 fly up and the guy's in the room holding the 01:30:48.069 --> 01:30:50.369 boobs and then he's embarrassed that he saw her 01:30:50.369 --> 01:30:52.770 nude and whatever. Like, all of that stuff, like, 01:30:52.810 --> 01:30:55.649 these are archetypes that he then makes uncomfortable. 01:30:56.210 --> 01:30:58.109 Where it's like, well, that's that weird, you 01:30:58.109 --> 01:31:00.649 know, jerk -off scene for anime fans. And then 01:31:00.649 --> 01:31:02.270 it's like, well, actually, that's your mother. 01:31:02.390 --> 01:31:04.329 Like, you know what I mean? And then, you know, 01:31:04.350 --> 01:31:07.010 he does the hospital scene in the movie and stuff, 01:31:07.050 --> 01:31:08.590 which we haven't even gotten to. But, like, he's 01:31:08.590 --> 01:31:11.130 using his archetypes and then making them different. 01:31:11.210 --> 01:31:13.949 But what exactly is the archetype of piloting 01:31:13.949 --> 01:31:16.789 the Eva if we apply it to the ideas of being 01:31:16.789 --> 01:31:19.470 a 14 -year -old boy and growing up in Japanese 01:31:19.470 --> 01:31:22.449 society? It's protector, right? It's cop. It's 01:31:22.449 --> 01:31:26.590 soldier. It's basically, like, I have no power 01:31:26.590 --> 01:31:30.670 in my regular everyday life. And, yeah, granted, 01:31:30.789 --> 01:31:33.010 like, I inherited this from my father or whatever, 01:31:33.149 --> 01:31:36.189 but, like, Shinji... No, I think it's Asuka at 01:31:36.189 --> 01:31:37.989 one point. Like, they ask, like, why does it 01:31:37.989 --> 01:31:40.409 feel good? Why do you pilot the Eva? And it's, 01:31:40.430 --> 01:31:43.329 like, because I want to protect people. And it's... 01:31:43.329 --> 01:31:45.529 Obviously, it's, you know, they're talking about 01:31:45.529 --> 01:31:47.989 themselves. I want to protect myself from the 01:31:47.989 --> 01:31:50.569 trauma I had in the past that led me to do this 01:31:50.569 --> 01:31:52.789 so willingly in the first place. But, like, I 01:31:52.789 --> 01:31:55.750 think that the central theme there is, like... 01:31:55.899 --> 01:31:58.560 We are protectors. We have purpose. There's an 01:31:58.560 --> 01:32:01.079 enemy there, you know, that potentially created 01:32:01.079 --> 01:32:03.840 the second impact, and I am the stable guard 01:32:03.840 --> 01:32:06.239 against the potential third impact. The thing 01:32:06.239 --> 01:32:09.340 is, they don't, like, actually know the truth 01:32:09.340 --> 01:32:11.119 about what they're doing at all. Exactly. Yeah, 01:32:11.279 --> 01:32:13.560 yeah, of course. It's not about that. But they 01:32:13.560 --> 01:32:15.260 don't ask questions. But to be fair, isn't that 01:32:15.260 --> 01:32:17.460 every soldier? Like, they give you a gun, they 01:32:17.460 --> 01:32:19.000 tell you to go into a country, and you go, like, 01:32:19.060 --> 01:32:20.880 that's your enemy. It's essentially an embrace 01:32:20.880 --> 01:32:24.479 of authoritarianism. Yes. I think... I think 01:32:24.479 --> 01:32:27.279 essentially like if we're going to talk about 01:32:27.279 --> 01:32:29.920 the Bizarro ending basically being the same exact 01:32:29.920 --> 01:32:34.319 thing as the show, it can all be sort of summed 01:32:34.319 --> 01:32:39.000 up as like a banal reality that he is then like 01:32:39.000 --> 01:32:42.130 imagining in this like. completely heightened 01:32:42.130 --> 01:32:45.130 way that matches his emotions more. But then 01:32:45.130 --> 01:32:46.590 what is the banal reality? Are you talking about 01:32:46.590 --> 01:32:48.569 basically it's going to school and getting good 01:32:48.569 --> 01:32:51.310 grades and being a good son and getting the right 01:32:51.310 --> 01:32:55.689 job? I think the Ava thing in particular is just 01:32:55.689 --> 01:32:59.189 a stand -in for doing some kind of job or starting 01:32:59.189 --> 01:33:02.010 to be involved in your father's business or something 01:33:02.010 --> 01:33:05.069 like that. Purpose in a purposeless life. Even 01:33:05.069 --> 01:33:07.149 if the business itself, whatever the business 01:33:07.149 --> 01:33:10.000 itself is doing is irrelevant, you find... the 01:33:10.000 --> 01:33:13.739 meaning in the approval that you get for being 01:33:13.739 --> 01:33:16.399 a part of the system. Of course, because let's 01:33:16.399 --> 01:33:20.760 say Gendo is just the CEO of a multi -conglomerate 01:33:20.760 --> 01:33:24.380 weapons manufacturer or something, and Shinji 01:33:24.380 --> 01:33:28.500 is just getting involved in that. He's given 01:33:28.500 --> 01:33:33.279 a role there. It's bizarre because you're dealing 01:33:33.279 --> 01:33:37.119 with weapons of war. 14 -year -olds, which, like, 01:33:37.159 --> 01:33:39.020 the idea that you'd ever... But, like, that's 01:33:39.020 --> 01:33:40.439 the thing. It's, like, not about it actually 01:33:40.439 --> 01:33:43.699 being, like, weapons of war. It's just, in Shinji's 01:33:43.699 --> 01:33:46.020 mind, it feels like that type of responsibility 01:33:46.020 --> 01:33:49.460 to him. Like, whatever it actually is, the responsibility 01:33:49.460 --> 01:33:52.819 being thrust upon him by his father and his father's 01:33:52.819 --> 01:33:55.500 work is something that he doesn't feel cut out 01:33:55.500 --> 01:33:58.060 for. So it's his father's values, basically, 01:33:58.060 --> 01:33:59.939 that he is accepting. Yeah, because his father's 01:33:59.939 --> 01:34:01.819 values. His parents' values, right? Because it 01:34:01.819 --> 01:34:04.220 is his mother that he is going into the womb 01:34:04.220 --> 01:34:07.609 of. Of course, and if we're going to accept that 01:34:07.609 --> 01:34:09.470 his mom is absolutely just a part of this as 01:34:09.470 --> 01:34:12.489 well, because honestly the entire project is 01:34:12.489 --> 01:34:15.170 his mom's work, we can't forget about that. Right, 01:34:15.229 --> 01:34:16.909 that's the thing that's revealed in the very 01:34:16.909 --> 01:34:19.130 end, is that Yui did not... Yui is the genius. 01:34:19.449 --> 01:34:22.949 She came up with all this shit. Gendo is just 01:34:22.949 --> 01:34:27.869 like somebody who is seeing to completion what 01:34:27.869 --> 01:34:30.789 Yui was doing. I mean, in the same way that Shinji 01:34:30.789 --> 01:34:34.159 is, right? Right. And Yui is the real sick twisted 01:34:34.159 --> 01:34:37.319 one, too. Like, that's the thing. Like, Yui is 01:34:37.319 --> 01:34:40.140 the one that creates all of this that both the 01:34:40.140 --> 01:34:42.880 cards have to play out. But this is her master 01:34:42.880 --> 01:34:45.939 plan to destroy the world, right? I mean, I know 01:34:45.939 --> 01:34:49.020 something goes wrong when Shinji's there, and 01:34:49.020 --> 01:34:52.939 that's when Yui is put into Avian 1. That's what 01:34:52.939 --> 01:34:56.500 they say, that something went wrong. But... It 01:34:56.500 --> 01:34:57.760 doesn't seem to me like anything went wrong. 01:34:57.859 --> 01:35:00.199 It seems like if something went wrong, then it 01:35:00.199 --> 01:35:02.239 went incredibly right because they created everything 01:35:02.239 --> 01:35:04.640 that they wanted out of this accidental thing 01:35:04.640 --> 01:35:07.199 that went wrong. And Yui wanted Shinji to be 01:35:07.199 --> 01:35:09.220 there to watch it. Well, yeah, the EVAs wouldn't 01:35:09.220 --> 01:35:11.100 work the way they do and you wouldn't have been 01:35:11.100 --> 01:35:14.300 able to do the third impact instrumentality, 01:35:14.399 --> 01:35:17.979 whatever the fuck, extravaganza, without the 01:35:17.979 --> 01:35:21.800 sentience of the EVA and the Yui being a part 01:35:21.800 --> 01:35:23.460 of that or whatever. It does feel like it would 01:35:23.460 --> 01:35:26.220 have been part of the plan. Yeah. But that's 01:35:26.220 --> 01:35:28.520 another thing that's really hard to track, is 01:35:28.520 --> 01:35:30.300 what the plan actually is. All we kind of know 01:35:30.300 --> 01:35:33.159 is that there was a Yui's plan that started all 01:35:33.159 --> 01:35:37.239 of this. In the manga, though, Yui actually chooses 01:35:37.239 --> 01:35:40.420 to remain with the Eva. That's explicitly stated. 01:35:40.819 --> 01:35:45.060 So it's more intentional. I think it's never 01:35:45.060 --> 01:35:47.920 really explained clearly what happens to Yui. 01:35:48.359 --> 01:35:51.979 She just disappears, so she dissolved into the 01:35:51.979 --> 01:35:55.579 entry plug, just like Shinji does. halfway through 01:35:55.579 --> 01:35:58.420 the series which is totally foreshadowing to 01:35:58.420 --> 01:36:00.199 the last two episodes because he just ends up 01:36:00.199 --> 01:36:03.420 in the sea of you know lcl and then just has 01:36:03.420 --> 01:36:06.579 like a that's also really like introspective 01:36:06.579 --> 01:36:09.119 episode i think it's like halfway through the 01:36:09.119 --> 01:36:12.119 show like episode 16 or something yeah yeah but 01:36:12.119 --> 01:36:14.279 so yui also like disappears into the entry plug 01:36:14.279 --> 01:36:17.180 and never re -emerges you know there's no body 01:36:17.180 --> 01:36:19.819 like her grave is just like there's nothing there 01:36:19.819 --> 01:36:24.520 right and she ends up living in the Eva right 01:36:24.520 --> 01:36:26.020 because she's still alive and she specifically 01:36:26.020 --> 01:36:30.239 does it in the manga to protect Shinji so it's 01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:33.020 all kind of part of the plan right in the manga 01:36:33.020 --> 01:36:35.180 it ends up feeling like the entire thing was 01:36:35.180 --> 01:36:40.800 like the most insane plan Of a mother to protect 01:36:40.800 --> 01:36:43.640 her child for eternity. Right. That it was all 01:36:43.640 --> 01:36:46.859 for Shinji. Right. Because like in the end, when 01:36:46.859 --> 01:36:50.020 instrumentality comes, he's in this little tiny 01:36:50.020 --> 01:36:54.140 insular bunker and he gets to decide what happens 01:36:54.140 --> 01:36:58.159 to the fate of humanity. He gets to decide whether 01:36:58.159 --> 01:37:00.659 or not the world is like a beautiful place. It's 01:37:00.659 --> 01:37:02.500 what every parent wants for their child, isn't 01:37:02.500 --> 01:37:04.380 it? The ability to determine their own destiny. 01:37:04.699 --> 01:37:06.119 It's literally the dream of what every parent 01:37:06.119 --> 01:37:08.960 wants for their child. that you control your 01:37:08.960 --> 01:37:11.579 destiny, that you have infinite possibilities. 01:37:12.659 --> 01:37:15.220 That's the last line of the manga, is Shinji 01:37:15.220 --> 01:37:17.579 saying, like, I know times will be tough, I know 01:37:17.579 --> 01:37:20.359 the road will be winding, but the sun will always 01:37:20.359 --> 01:37:24.159 shine and lead the way, and my life could have 01:37:24.159 --> 01:37:27.100 infinite possibilities. Yeah, yeah. And he says 01:37:27.100 --> 01:37:28.399 the same thing towards the end of the series, 01:37:28.539 --> 01:37:30.840 too. Essentially, yeah, yeah. So, like, they're 01:37:30.840 --> 01:37:33.880 all very similar, like the ending of the show, 01:37:34.039 --> 01:37:38.560 the end of Evangelion. and um the manga ultimately 01:37:38.560 --> 01:37:41.039 they're all pretty life -affirming i think the 01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:43.720 end of the movie though is the weirdest like 01:37:43.720 --> 01:37:46.239 him choking out oscar on the beach and her saying 01:37:46.239 --> 01:37:49.500 disgusting and all that it's so much more dark 01:37:49.500 --> 01:37:51.600 and cynical well i mean i guess kind of to get 01:37:51.600 --> 01:37:53.539 into what we started to talk about a little bit 01:37:53.539 --> 01:37:55.920 earlier was yeah after the end of the series 01:37:56.750 --> 01:37:59.430 Fans were upset. They wanted a better ending 01:37:59.430 --> 01:38:02.090 that was higher budget and whatever. This is 01:38:02.090 --> 01:38:05.130 at least the narrative, yeah. And Anno created 01:38:05.130 --> 01:38:08.069 this movie in which they show on screen hate 01:38:08.069 --> 01:38:11.289 mail from the fans and stuff. So it is very much 01:38:11.289 --> 01:38:15.750 a response to this fan community. I think really 01:38:15.750 --> 01:38:18.069 does do the same thing again. Like, it's not 01:38:18.069 --> 01:38:20.350 like he's going back and being like, oh, okay, 01:38:20.449 --> 01:38:21.989 well, I'll give you a totally different ending 01:38:21.989 --> 01:38:23.850 that was kind of the original series ending or 01:38:23.850 --> 01:38:26.369 whatever. No, he's really still doing the ending 01:38:26.369 --> 01:38:28.510 of the show, but he's just making it integrate 01:38:28.510 --> 01:38:30.649 with the show more. And I think the aesthetics 01:38:30.649 --> 01:38:34.789 of the movie are... Like, I think the movie is 01:38:34.789 --> 01:38:37.710 so cinematic. This last viewing, I was just so 01:38:37.710 --> 01:38:40.350 impressed with the first half. Just, like, Asuka's 01:38:40.350 --> 01:38:44.270 fight and death and everybody that you know dying, 01:38:44.569 --> 01:38:47.829 like, in the most devastating ways. And Asuka 01:38:47.829 --> 01:38:49.869 calling out to her mom and realizing that it's 01:38:49.869 --> 01:38:52.529 been her mom the whole time and then dying. Like, 01:38:52.550 --> 01:38:55.829 it's... I'll kill you, I'll kill you, I'll kill 01:38:55.829 --> 01:38:58.090 you, I'll kill you. And when I watch that scene, 01:38:58.109 --> 01:39:02.069 I cry. It's a stupid thing to be crying watching 01:39:02.069 --> 01:39:04.710 fighting robots, but it is so sad. It's not fighting 01:39:04.710 --> 01:39:10.909 robots, though. No, but it's... It's an intensely 01:39:10.909 --> 01:39:12.869 sad movie. When it cuts to credits in the middle 01:39:12.869 --> 01:39:15.029 of the movie, at the end of Death and Rebirth, 01:39:15.130 --> 01:39:18.069 the first half of the movie, it's just like... 01:39:18.350 --> 01:39:21.729 The most bleak possible place to leave everybody. 01:39:23.149 --> 01:39:25.850 It's just like everything has gone wrong and 01:39:25.850 --> 01:39:28.829 there is no light at the end of the tunnel. And 01:39:28.829 --> 01:39:30.710 then the second half really isn't a light at 01:39:30.710 --> 01:39:33.149 the end of the tunnel. It's just like pure symbols 01:39:33.149 --> 01:39:36.529 and stuff. And Shinji's screaming and then it 01:39:36.529 --> 01:39:40.369 all returns to nothing. It's a light if you choose 01:39:40.369 --> 01:39:44.250 to see it as light. The movie gets more meta 01:39:44.250 --> 01:39:49.069 and has all the live action photography. Yeah, 01:39:49.069 --> 01:39:52.710 it's incredible. The shots from the premiere. 01:39:52.710 --> 01:39:55.729 I love it. That's one of my favorites. And over 01:39:55.729 --> 01:39:59.710 it it says, does it feel good? It's just so vicious. 01:40:01.639 --> 01:40:04.100 It's Hanukkah having his dudes turn to the camera 01:40:04.100 --> 01:40:05.600 and be like, isn't this what you wanted? Right, 01:40:05.640 --> 01:40:09.800 yeah. Except here, it feels so much meaner. Because 01:40:09.800 --> 01:40:12.560 he's showing you you. He's being like, this is 01:40:12.560 --> 01:40:14.640 you. This is you and this is what you want. He 01:40:14.640 --> 01:40:17.279 made him jerk off to a comatose Asuka to completion 01:40:17.279 --> 01:40:21.119 on screen first. He made you feel so gross about 01:40:21.119 --> 01:40:24.060 every single part. Misato is no longer... Everybody 01:40:24.060 --> 01:40:26.920 is ruined by the end of this. Who's the lowest 01:40:26.920 --> 01:40:29.020 of the low? We are the lowest of the low. Even 01:40:29.020 --> 01:40:32.920 when... Tari is talking to Ritsuko, and it just, 01:40:32.979 --> 01:40:35.680 like, blanks out his line of, like, it's always 01:40:35.680 --> 01:40:38.239 been. Okay. It's so mean. Something just clicked 01:40:38.239 --> 01:40:41.779 for me. You keep saying we're the lowest of the 01:40:41.779 --> 01:40:44.279 low, and now I'm realizing why, because that's, 01:40:44.279 --> 01:40:46.140 like, the translation you saw. Yeah, the translation 01:40:46.140 --> 01:40:48.840 says I'm the lowest of the low. Yeah, but there's 01:40:48.840 --> 01:40:50.739 a different translation that says I'm so fucked 01:40:50.739 --> 01:40:52.479 up. Yeah, the other English translation says 01:40:52.479 --> 01:40:55.939 I'm so fucked up. I like that more. Oh, I get 01:40:55.939 --> 01:40:59.149 that. I totally get it. Yeah. Lowest of the low 01:40:59.149 --> 01:41:01.970 alternate translation of Shinji looking at his 01:41:01.970 --> 01:41:04.350 cum -covered hand in front of a komato sasuke. 01:41:04.510 --> 01:41:08.430 Yeah. I love the shot of the locked door and 01:41:08.430 --> 01:41:10.789 stuff. That's the thing we were saying about 01:41:10.789 --> 01:41:18.029 last episode, the Akira episode, just talking 01:41:18.029 --> 01:41:20.630 about the beauty of Evangelion. When I was talking 01:41:20.630 --> 01:41:24.970 about the animation -wise, but just stuff like 01:41:24.970 --> 01:41:28.380 that is, I think, what... We mean by the beauty 01:41:28.380 --> 01:41:31.979 of it. Even like these still images can be so 01:41:31.979 --> 01:41:35.119 beautiful and Evangelion just like. Anno is, 01:41:35.220 --> 01:41:37.680 like, really a master at environmental storytelling. 01:41:38.060 --> 01:41:39.539 Totally. I mean, there's so many of the shots 01:41:39.539 --> 01:41:42.680 of the wires and the empty streets and stuff, 01:41:42.720 --> 01:41:46.260 and those are all over his movies. There's that 01:41:46.260 --> 01:41:48.680 whole classical montage that's just, like, the 01:41:48.680 --> 01:41:51.380 trains and buildings and whatever. It's, like, 01:41:51.439 --> 01:41:55.500 it has nothing to do with, like... And just the 01:41:55.500 --> 01:41:57.319 establishing shots. The establishing shot of 01:41:57.319 --> 01:42:00.500 Misato's porch and the establishing... Like, 01:42:00.579 --> 01:42:03.460 there are such beautiful environments, and, like, 01:42:03.479 --> 01:42:06.939 the vibe... is so weird because it's this huge 01:42:06.939 --> 01:42:11.239 empty city it's it's very like and there's nothing 01:42:11.239 --> 01:42:13.439 but there's crickets all the time when i was 01:42:13.439 --> 01:42:17.079 in uh what middle school buying these dvds in 01:42:17.079 --> 01:42:18.840 the first place when the platinum collection 01:42:18.840 --> 01:42:21.939 came out i fucking returned one because i was 01:42:21.939 --> 01:42:23.760 like there just keeps being this buzzing noise 01:42:23.760 --> 01:42:26.880 i was like it's just talking about the cicadas 01:42:26.880 --> 01:42:29.760 yeah the cicadas uh the cicadas everywhere like 01:42:29.760 --> 01:42:31.600 i never heard cicadas like that because it's 01:42:31.600 --> 01:42:33.140 a japanese cicadas you hear them all over other 01:42:33.140 --> 01:42:35.739 japanese movies but i was just like there's something 01:42:35.739 --> 01:42:37.760 wrong with the soundtrack and i returned it and 01:42:37.760 --> 01:42:39.300 then i got another disc and i was like oh i guess 01:42:39.300 --> 01:42:42.260 it's supposed to be there but it's actually another 01:42:42.260 --> 01:42:44.420 thing that gets brought up in the manga like 01:42:44.420 --> 01:42:48.100 there's like a flashback with yui and a young 01:42:48.100 --> 01:42:50.899 shinji that's the regrowing earth and all the 01:42:50.899 --> 01:42:54.520 cicadas coming back she says yeah she says like 01:42:54.520 --> 01:42:56.979 like there used to be more sounds than just the 01:42:56.979 --> 01:42:59.880 cicadas yeah long ago but like like it's just 01:42:59.880 --> 01:43:05.560 cicadas 24 7 now yeah yeah um but yeah i i think 01:43:05.560 --> 01:43:08.340 just going back to the the thing about shinji 01:43:08.340 --> 01:43:11.510 and what the piloting the ava is I think one 01:43:11.510 --> 01:43:13.710 of the interesting takes I heard on another podcast 01:43:13.710 --> 01:43:18.829 was the relationship between Ikari and Shinji 01:43:18.829 --> 01:43:23.670 is kind of a similar relationship to Anno and 01:43:23.670 --> 01:43:27.789 Miyazaki. Miyazaki is kind of this giant anime 01:43:27.789 --> 01:43:30.670 leader and whatnot. And then Anno came on as 01:43:30.670 --> 01:43:33.649 an animator on Nausicaa and blah, blah, blah. 01:43:33.770 --> 01:43:36.189 There's some connection there because Miyazaki 01:43:36.189 --> 01:43:39.409 is... well known as a horrible boss and a mean 01:43:39.409 --> 01:43:42.250 person who hates everybody. Like he hated this 01:43:42.250 --> 01:43:45.109 son's movie and said like, like there's like 01:43:45.109 --> 01:43:47.729 a, he was quoted publicly. He's a real salty 01:43:47.729 --> 01:43:50.770 misanthrope for like how beautifully joyful his 01:43:50.770 --> 01:43:53.569 movies are. Yeah. But he has embraced his relationship 01:43:53.569 --> 01:43:55.750 with Anno, even though he doesn't like any of 01:43:55.750 --> 01:43:58.649 Otaku culture, any of the other Otaku people 01:43:58.649 --> 01:44:01.050 or the rest of like filmmakers, like he does. 01:44:01.680 --> 01:44:03.880 Except Anno in some way. He knows Anno's hate 01:44:03.880 --> 01:44:07.319 is pure. Right, right. They do have a similar 01:44:07.319 --> 01:44:09.779 self -hatred. I think it's the self -hatred that's 01:44:09.779 --> 01:44:12.140 important though. Yes. I think that's the thing 01:44:12.140 --> 01:44:16.079 about the controversy over the ending of the 01:44:16.079 --> 01:44:18.880 show or whatever. And then like, because this 01:44:18.880 --> 01:44:21.319 is another thing like that guy brings up in the 01:44:21.319 --> 01:44:24.460 YouTube series about the history of Gainax is 01:44:24.460 --> 01:44:26.760 just like thinking that that whole thing was 01:44:26.760 --> 01:44:29.619 overblown because of a vocal minority. and that 01:44:29.619 --> 01:44:32.859 there's a narrative that's really pervaded about 01:44:32.859 --> 01:44:36.260 how the end of Evangelion was specifically made 01:44:36.260 --> 01:44:40.300 as an attack on the fans, and how he kind of 01:44:40.300 --> 01:44:42.560 rejects that narrative and whatever. I think 01:44:42.560 --> 01:44:46.840 when you say it's mean -spirited and it says, 01:44:46.880 --> 01:44:49.220 does it feel good over the audience and stuff 01:44:49.220 --> 01:44:52.319 like that, I don't know. I think it is easy to 01:44:52.319 --> 01:44:55.840 see it either way. I think it can just as easily 01:44:55.840 --> 01:44:59.550 be seen as like, Well, it's neither way, though. 01:44:59.630 --> 01:45:03.569 It's both. Basically, I think Anno's concern 01:45:03.569 --> 01:45:07.289 is to look inward and deconstruct himself and 01:45:07.289 --> 01:45:11.270 criticize himself and whatever. And when an artist 01:45:11.270 --> 01:45:14.909 is displaying this kind of brutal honesty about 01:45:14.909 --> 01:45:19.170 themselves, that ultimately does just become 01:45:19.170 --> 01:45:23.189 something that people... internalize personally. 01:45:23.609 --> 01:45:26.609 Or like we reflexively analyze it, right? Like 01:45:26.609 --> 01:45:28.710 it becomes something that adds to the myth of 01:45:28.710 --> 01:45:31.130 the show itself. I just think sometimes when 01:45:31.130 --> 01:45:33.289 someone is like being self -deprecating and attacking 01:45:33.289 --> 01:45:36.670 themselves, somebody ends up seeing that as an 01:45:36.670 --> 01:45:39.590 attack on them because like you're bringing up 01:45:39.590 --> 01:45:43.829 something so specific and like deep. Yeah, but 01:45:43.829 --> 01:45:46.560 I just, I think that this can be like. It's an 01:45:46.560 --> 01:45:50.399 attack on otaku culture, and Anno is a key figure 01:45:50.399 --> 01:45:52.760 in otaku culture. I just think those things are 01:45:52.760 --> 01:45:53.140 so intrinsically linked. And at the time, so 01:45:53.140 --> 01:45:55.319 was Asahara. You know what I mean? So was the 01:45:55.319 --> 01:45:57.220 guy running Onsen Riki. I'm saying those things 01:45:57.220 --> 01:46:00.319 are so intrinsically linked that when Anno attacks 01:46:00.319 --> 01:46:03.619 himself, he is also attacking... the culture 01:46:03.619 --> 01:46:05.979 that they're inseparable I think that he's doing 01:46:05.979 --> 01:46:09.420 that overtly like he's like when you say like 01:46:09.420 --> 01:46:11.979 we want to minimize the narrative that this was 01:46:11.979 --> 01:46:13.899 a response to fans or whatever it's like but 01:46:13.899 --> 01:46:18.020 Anno himself put fan mail in the final like montage 01:46:18.020 --> 01:46:21.819 like it's he is embracing the thing and he is 01:46:21.819 --> 01:46:23.539 showing the audience and saying does it feel 01:46:23.539 --> 01:46:26.640 good like you don't need to go to the external 01:46:26.640 --> 01:46:29.720 like sources to find like he is specifically 01:46:29.720 --> 01:46:32.729 talking to an audience of otaku in a vicious 01:46:32.729 --> 01:46:35.529 way like and yes that's also it's it's okay for 01:46:35.529 --> 01:46:37.529 him to do it because it's like i could say the 01:46:37.529 --> 01:46:39.149 n -word if i'm black like you know what i mean 01:46:39.149 --> 01:46:41.229 it's like you're it's okay for you to attack 01:46:41.229 --> 01:46:45.409 otaku because you are an otaku but like if this 01:46:45.409 --> 01:46:48.029 was being made by some non -otaku it would be 01:46:48.029 --> 01:46:51.170 vicious and and wrong like you wouldn't it wouldn't 01:46:51.170 --> 01:46:53.189 have anything to say like you know what i mean 01:46:53.189 --> 01:46:56.420 yeah And Anno is, like, one of the top four or 01:46:56.420 --> 01:47:00.220 five anime creators who is responsible for, like, 01:47:00.279 --> 01:47:03.640 making otakus so mainstream. Right, right. It's 01:47:03.640 --> 01:47:06.800 just, like, Evangelion, like the works of Miyazaki 01:47:06.800 --> 01:47:13.220 and Mamoru Oshii and Kachihiro Otomo. Like, these 01:47:13.220 --> 01:47:16.300 are the people who really, like, made this whole 01:47:16.300 --> 01:47:19.359 thing mainstream. And are part of this larger 01:47:19.359 --> 01:47:22.380 conversation about how otaku culture has kind 01:47:22.380 --> 01:47:25.439 of just taken over the globe. It's like, otaku 01:47:25.439 --> 01:47:28.739 never meant you were a fan of anime. So at this 01:47:28.739 --> 01:47:31.119 point, I kind of just don't see any difference 01:47:31.119 --> 01:47:32.779 between... In Japan, they still don't identify 01:47:32.779 --> 01:47:36.079 as otaku. That's like an American thing. I just 01:47:36.079 --> 01:47:38.739 think what the phrase means can be applied to 01:47:38.739 --> 01:47:41.060 so many people now and so many interests. Yeah, 01:47:41.060 --> 01:47:42.340 well, that I think is what's interesting about 01:47:42.340 --> 01:47:45.539 the Hikikomori idea. Like, I think that... the 01:47:45.539 --> 01:47:48.159 idea of the isolation that comes from sort of 01:47:48.159 --> 01:47:51.939 modernization, I think that there's an anime 01:47:51.939 --> 01:47:54.159 to hikikomori pipeline. You know what I mean? 01:47:54.199 --> 01:47:57.920 There's a postmodern disease that both have, 01:47:58.039 --> 01:47:59.819 and it's the same thing. And I think the hikikomori 01:47:59.819 --> 01:48:02.859 thing is something that is something that we 01:48:02.859 --> 01:48:05.939 all have in the West now. People are more isolated 01:48:05.939 --> 01:48:08.979 and just living on their computers. Yeah, I mean, 01:48:09.020 --> 01:48:10.859 maybe they don't have the same anxiety about 01:48:10.859 --> 01:48:13.100 leaving their houses, but like... Kind of they 01:48:13.100 --> 01:48:14.760 do. Like, you know what I mean? A hundred percent 01:48:14.760 --> 01:48:16.960 they do. Yeah. So like it's, it's, you know, 01:48:16.960 --> 01:48:20.300 it is a universal thing more and more as the 01:48:20.300 --> 01:48:21.979 culture gets more and more modernized and people 01:48:21.979 --> 01:48:25.159 embrace post -modernism more and more. No, I 01:48:25.159 --> 01:48:27.840 think you can safely say there are way more people 01:48:27.840 --> 01:48:32.680 now who don't have like vibrant communities that 01:48:32.680 --> 01:48:35.890 are like in person. Like I bet most people just 01:48:35.890 --> 01:48:37.689 don't know their neighbors or who lives around 01:48:37.689 --> 01:48:39.850 them. Totally. A lot of people our generation 01:48:39.850 --> 01:48:42.710 not having kids and not like starting families 01:48:42.710 --> 01:48:46.310 or those types of connections and like having 01:48:46.310 --> 01:48:48.710 kids like connects you to a whole bunch of other 01:48:48.710 --> 01:48:51.210 stuff as well. But then having a job connects 01:48:51.210 --> 01:48:52.710 you to more things and more people are doing 01:48:52.710 --> 01:48:54.630 jobs that don't actually connect you to people. 01:48:55.069 --> 01:48:57.189 And then all the options at your fingertip because 01:48:57.189 --> 01:48:59.789 of technology as far as like entertainment on 01:48:59.789 --> 01:49:03.140 your phone and just like. all the communication 01:49:03.140 --> 01:49:05.600 and validation and dopamine you can kind of get 01:49:05.600 --> 01:49:08.640 from just interacting with the world through 01:49:08.640 --> 01:49:12.039 your device. And how that becomes the more important 01:49:12.039 --> 01:49:15.000 aspect of your life. You know what I mean? More 01:49:15.000 --> 01:49:18.119 definitional for your personality and how you 01:49:18.119 --> 01:49:20.960 see yourself. It's also had a really huge impact 01:49:20.960 --> 01:49:23.619 on the world and our politics and on how actual 01:49:23.619 --> 01:49:27.060 reality works. Like you can't actually ignore 01:49:27.060 --> 01:49:30.489 what happens on the internet anymore. It has 01:49:30.489 --> 01:49:33.649 an actual tangible effect on things. Personal 01:49:33.649 --> 01:49:38.310 isolation has absolutely leached out into a broader 01:49:38.310 --> 01:49:41.770 politics of isolation. You don't see the value 01:49:41.770 --> 01:49:43.810 in other people because you don't need them as 01:49:43.810 --> 01:49:47.010 much for the thing that satisfies you. And you 01:49:47.010 --> 01:49:48.770 don't have things in common with those people 01:49:48.770 --> 01:49:51.210 who live around you. Well, inherently, you're 01:49:51.210 --> 01:49:54.510 hyper -individualized. And that paradigm allows 01:49:54.510 --> 01:50:00.159 for extremism, fascism. you know, dominant systems 01:50:00.159 --> 01:50:04.239 of control, conspiracy theory, your own narrative 01:50:04.239 --> 01:50:06.840 reality. It's, it's, it's like a hardcore, like 01:50:06.840 --> 01:50:09.680 nobody's touching grass and like, you know, connecting 01:50:09.680 --> 01:50:12.579 with one another kind of thing. So like, because 01:50:12.579 --> 01:50:14.300 we're all disconnected and fractured, it's so 01:50:14.300 --> 01:50:18.720 easy to control people with, uh, media and just. 01:50:19.439 --> 01:50:21.460 at the very least, keeping them distracted from 01:50:21.460 --> 01:50:24.340 anything. And they're way too overstimulated 01:50:24.340 --> 01:50:26.840 by, like, all the information that's coming in 01:50:26.840 --> 01:50:29.840 and just, like, like you said, the entire global 01:50:29.840 --> 01:50:31.979 narrative that's at your fingertips every day, 01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:33.859 even though you're just in your room. And I don't 01:50:33.859 --> 01:50:35.640 really think this is, like, one of the main things 01:50:35.640 --> 01:50:38.199 Evangelion's doing, but I think that part of 01:50:38.199 --> 01:50:41.180 it is the reason that these characters are fighting 01:50:41.180 --> 01:50:43.180 these angels is because it's something that's 01:50:43.180 --> 01:50:46.439 kind of too complicated for them to fully understand, 01:50:46.520 --> 01:50:48.970 and they're not... If they ask questions, they're 01:50:48.970 --> 01:50:50.750 not really going to get satisfying answers. So 01:50:50.750 --> 01:50:53.630 it doesn't really, there is no answer to what 01:50:53.630 --> 01:50:56.310 they're actually doing. They might as well be 01:50:56.310 --> 01:50:58.090 like working for an AI program or something like 01:50:58.090 --> 01:50:59.989 that. You know what I mean? There's no, you're 01:50:59.989 --> 01:51:01.850 just going out and you're working and you're 01:51:01.850 --> 01:51:03.689 doing and you're contributing. But what you're 01:51:03.689 --> 01:51:05.529 contributing to is something that you're so removed 01:51:05.529 --> 01:51:07.350 from that it really doesn't matter. And you can 01:51:07.350 --> 01:51:10.289 go kill for that thing. You can go kill your 01:51:10.289 --> 01:51:12.770 friends. You can kill the boy you just fell in 01:51:12.770 --> 01:51:15.430 love with. She's almost like a little like man 01:51:15.430 --> 01:51:18.060 or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, he's a complete Eichmann. 01:51:18.359 --> 01:51:21.119 Because, yeah, he is, like, this entire project 01:51:21.119 --> 01:51:25.020 is about ending humanity. Ultimately. I mean, 01:51:25.039 --> 01:51:28.020 he is working for Satan against God. That is 01:51:28.020 --> 01:51:30.180 what you realize in the end is that Sinji is 01:51:30.180 --> 01:51:32.539 the Antichrist. When he's screaming and floating 01:51:32.539 --> 01:51:35.859 and he's being put on a cross in outer space, 01:51:36.079 --> 01:51:38.899 that is a vision of the Antichrist. It's pure 01:51:38.899 --> 01:51:41.180 horror. He's not loving it, but he's the Antichrist. 01:51:41.199 --> 01:51:43.579 What's the difference between Gendo and Peter 01:51:43.579 --> 01:51:47.579 Thiel? I mean, Peter Thiel's into a different 01:51:47.579 --> 01:51:54.279 gender of children. There is that. Don't sue 01:51:54.279 --> 01:51:55.899 me, Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel is like a techno 01:51:55.899 --> 01:51:59.579 -utopian. He's a transhumanist, and he's the 01:51:59.579 --> 01:52:02.140 kind of guy who got asked directly whether or 01:52:02.140 --> 01:52:05.399 not he thinks humanity should continue. and could 01:52:05.399 --> 01:52:07.899 not actually answer that question immediately. 01:52:08.720 --> 01:52:11.699 He kind of is a weird artistic Gendo guy. He's 01:52:11.699 --> 01:52:14.300 like, well, you see, the thing is, and I feel 01:52:14.300 --> 01:52:17.300 like basically what he then describes is essentially 01:52:17.300 --> 01:52:22.640 what Gendo would say. Like, well, we would become 01:52:22.640 --> 01:52:26.659 something beyond humanity. We would all become 01:52:26.659 --> 01:52:29.890 digital entities in a sea of data. or whatever, 01:52:30.029 --> 01:52:31.670 we would all become one, and there would be no 01:52:31.670 --> 01:52:35.649 pain and suffering, and all boredom would be 01:52:35.649 --> 01:52:37.989 amused, and all pain would be vanquished. This 01:52:37.989 --> 01:52:40.930 is a transhumanist idea, but it's also the anime 01:52:40.930 --> 01:52:45.630 idea. This comes out of this postmodern idea. 01:52:46.029 --> 01:52:48.750 Once you start embracing postmodernism, you are 01:52:48.750 --> 01:52:52.250 embracing transhumanism, and you are choosing 01:52:52.250 --> 01:52:55.130 a reality over the reality. There's no room for 01:52:55.130 --> 01:52:58.260 religion or spirituality. That is... It is part 01:52:58.260 --> 01:53:00.680 of the same thing. I mean, lumping religion in, 01:53:00.760 --> 01:53:03.220 like, religion can be a transhumanist kind of 01:53:03.220 --> 01:53:08.180 idea of, like, an eternal soul or acting a certain 01:53:08.180 --> 01:53:10.439 way. No, the transhumanism is that there is no 01:53:10.439 --> 01:53:13.340 soul, that you could be transported into data, 01:53:13.460 --> 01:53:16.220 that there's nothing in you that could not be 01:53:16.220 --> 01:53:18.479 data. That's the transhumanist thing. No, sure, 01:53:18.560 --> 01:53:21.210 sure. I guess that there is no soul. And that 01:53:21.210 --> 01:53:23.770 leaves no ability for spirituality or anything. 01:53:23.850 --> 01:53:26.229 It's an atheistic religion of the future, which 01:53:26.229 --> 01:53:28.149 is what's expressed in science fiction. Like, 01:53:28.189 --> 01:53:30.289 anime comes out of science fiction clubs and 01:53:30.289 --> 01:53:32.770 whatever, and then they make anime stuff. But 01:53:32.770 --> 01:53:34.850 this all comes out of science fiction and starts 01:53:34.850 --> 01:53:37.029 back with, like, I mean, it starts way back. 01:53:37.149 --> 01:53:40.850 These are fascistic ideas. I don't know. We'll 01:53:40.850 --> 01:53:43.779 get into this more when we get into... Star Trek. 01:53:43.880 --> 01:53:46.840 Starship Troopers. Well, Starship Troopers, too. 01:53:47.300 --> 01:53:50.020 That's an overtly fascistic, but... Well, I like 01:53:50.020 --> 01:53:52.880 that there was a, in the first Daikon film that 01:53:52.880 --> 01:53:56.380 they made, there was a Starship Troopers suit. 01:53:56.739 --> 01:53:58.840 And I was like, that's... Like, I didn't know 01:53:58.840 --> 01:54:00.760 by looking at it, but I was like, because I didn't 01:54:00.760 --> 01:54:02.579 actually understand, like, most of the references. 01:54:02.840 --> 01:54:04.739 Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of science fiction references. 01:54:04.779 --> 01:54:06.760 In the first Daikon. But that was, like, that 01:54:06.760 --> 01:54:09.020 was supposedly a Starship Troopers suit, and 01:54:09.020 --> 01:54:10.460 I was like, that's weird. Oh, to, like, grasshopper 01:54:10.460 --> 01:54:13.489 suits? Like, yeah, one of their mobile, their 01:54:13.489 --> 01:54:15.689 powered armor suits. I mean, that's what, Daikon 01:54:15.689 --> 01:54:17.869 is like this whole collection of all of the things 01:54:17.869 --> 01:54:21.130 that contribute to the anime aesthetic and stuff 01:54:21.130 --> 01:54:23.010 and all the sources that they're pulling from 01:54:23.010 --> 01:54:26.750 and all of that sort of vibe. So, of course, 01:54:26.750 --> 01:54:29.409 that's in there. Playboy's in there, too. You 01:54:29.409 --> 01:54:30.930 know, there's just as important. There was an 01:54:30.930 --> 01:54:32.829 anime, though. That's what I didn't know. I'd 01:54:32.829 --> 01:54:34.289 kind of like to check it out, but there's like 01:54:34.289 --> 01:54:37.789 an eight part. Anime OVA based on Starship Troopers 01:54:37.789 --> 01:54:40.109 from like the 80s. That's sick. That's sick. 01:54:40.149 --> 01:54:42.850 I bet they embraced the fascism of Starship Troopers 01:54:42.850 --> 01:54:46.789 super hard. Like hey, a fascist ethnostate. Don't 01:54:46.789 --> 01:54:48.470 you remember like it was like a year and a half 01:54:48.470 --> 01:54:50.310 ago there was like a cultural moment where someone 01:54:50.310 --> 01:54:52.949 wrote an op -ed that was like actually for all 01:54:52.949 --> 01:54:54.729 the people that are like Starship Troopers is 01:54:54.729 --> 01:54:57.189 fascist. If you read the novel and it's like 01:54:57.189 --> 01:54:59.670 the film is a reaction to the novel you fucking 01:54:59.670 --> 01:55:02.680 moron. I love that shit. People are coming around 01:55:02.680 --> 01:55:05.199 on Starship Troopers. The writing's been on the 01:55:05.199 --> 01:55:07.640 wall for that one for so long because it's always 01:55:07.640 --> 01:55:10.460 been a great movie. So, like, now people are 01:55:10.460 --> 01:55:12.560 finally realizing that Starship Troopers is good. 01:55:12.760 --> 01:55:14.420 It's like, yeah, man, welcome to the club. It's 01:55:14.420 --> 01:55:17.119 fucking awesome. So good. Yeah, but I don't know. 01:55:18.079 --> 01:55:20.699 Like, what's on the mind you guys got? Well, 01:55:20.720 --> 01:55:22.960 I mean, who's the best girl? That's the number 01:55:22.960 --> 01:55:25.380 one conversation. It's Misato. It's not even 01:55:25.380 --> 01:55:29.529 close. You're obviously not an anime fan because 01:55:29.529 --> 01:55:34.130 you're not a pedophile. I love Masato. Masato's 01:55:34.130 --> 01:55:37.189 the fucking best. Well, that's the thing. Ray 01:55:37.189 --> 01:55:42.470 and Asuka stir very strange emotions in me. Okay. 01:55:42.630 --> 01:55:45.670 Explain. I just find both of them to be insanely 01:55:45.670 --> 01:55:49.550 hot, but for very different reasons. Okay. Ray 01:55:49.550 --> 01:55:54.000 is kind of like... That is the fantasy of, like, 01:55:54.060 --> 01:55:56.340 the housewife who will just be submissive. I 01:55:56.340 --> 01:55:58.060 mean, it's one of the porn archetypes in Japan 01:55:58.060 --> 01:56:00.579 is the maid. The maid, yeah. It's going to be 01:56:00.579 --> 01:56:03.199 one of the top three. Mahoramatic. There's, like, 01:56:03.220 --> 01:56:06.640 the maid, the senpai, the, like, older classmate 01:56:06.640 --> 01:56:09.020 from when you were a kid. No, there's a senpai, 01:56:09.039 --> 01:56:10.140 the older classmate, and then there's, like, 01:56:10.159 --> 01:56:13.470 a childhood friend thing. There's plenty more, 01:56:13.590 --> 01:56:16.829 obviously, but that's kind of their setup of 01:56:16.829 --> 01:56:19.409 archetype. But basically, I think I would have 01:56:19.409 --> 01:56:22.430 said Asuka's the best girl. Yeah. I first saw 01:56:22.430 --> 01:56:24.649 Evangelion like 10 years ago. She's the best 01:56:24.649 --> 01:56:26.770 character on the show, period. Oh, yeah. I would 01:56:26.770 --> 01:56:27.930 have been like, Asuka's my girl. Although, Masada's 01:56:27.930 --> 01:56:30.310 a great character, too. Because I'm fucked up 01:56:30.310 --> 01:56:33.189 and I'm attached to the damaged goods, and maybe 01:56:33.189 --> 01:56:35.649 I can fix her. Yeah, but like, who's more damaged 01:56:35.649 --> 01:56:38.680 than Rey? Really? Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah, 01:56:38.699 --> 01:56:40.039 but Rey's also just not a person. Asuka's just 01:56:40.039 --> 01:56:44.279 real. Asuka's just real. Like, everybody in that 01:56:44.279 --> 01:56:46.180 show has those problems. It's just that, like, 01:56:46.279 --> 01:56:48.859 Asuka, you can actually, like, she's dealing 01:56:48.859 --> 01:56:50.439 with them. She talks about them. Yeah, she talks 01:56:50.439 --> 01:56:53.460 about them. She's an extrovert in that way or 01:56:53.460 --> 01:56:57.569 whatever. Oh, I love Asuka. Rey does not have 01:56:57.569 --> 01:56:59.850 that. Misato does, though. It's just that Misato 01:56:59.850 --> 01:57:02.970 is kind of distanced from us. I just think that 01:57:02.970 --> 01:57:05.670 the views that we get into her, like the episode 01:57:05.670 --> 01:57:09.130 where she goes on the date with Kaji and she 01:57:09.130 --> 01:57:11.229 gets drunk and pukes in the back alley is so 01:57:11.229 --> 01:57:16.149 revealing. I don't know. It's really sad. But 01:57:16.149 --> 01:57:19.010 it also feels really real. She's not really expecting 01:57:19.010 --> 01:57:22.930 more than she... At my age now, man, Misato's 01:57:22.930 --> 01:57:25.649 the girl. I love Misato. She's the best. I wonder 01:57:25.649 --> 01:57:28.550 who's a Ritsuko person. Nobody. Feel bad for 01:57:28.550 --> 01:57:30.310 Ritsuko. There are plenty of people online who 01:57:30.310 --> 01:57:32.869 say they're Ritsuko. Lesbians. Maybe. Lesbians. 01:57:32.869 --> 01:57:35.189 And I don't say that with any judgment at all. 01:57:35.229 --> 01:57:38.170 I totally get it. She's... I'm going to say way 01:57:38.170 --> 01:57:41.449 too much. I'm going to let it go there. No, but 01:57:41.449 --> 01:57:45.489 there is a certain male authoritarian butchness 01:57:45.489 --> 01:57:49.489 to Ritsuko. And her interests are very male and 01:57:49.489 --> 01:57:51.229 coding and blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. 01:57:51.229 --> 01:57:56.289 Well, she's less repentant about her authoritarianism. 01:57:56.310 --> 01:57:58.569 You know what I mean? Like, there's, like, I 01:57:58.569 --> 01:58:01.649 think of Masato really as, like, I said it earlier, 01:58:01.689 --> 01:58:03.850 but, like, PMC. Someone who is, like, absolutely 01:58:03.850 --> 01:58:06.920 dedicated to... the mission, even though they're 01:58:06.920 --> 01:58:10.100 not entirely sure what the mission is. Ritsuko 01:58:10.100 --> 01:58:11.899 is someone who's like, I don't give a fuck what 01:58:11.899 --> 01:58:15.260 it is. It gives me power. It gives me an edge. 01:58:15.579 --> 01:58:18.159 And, like, doing the thing that gives me power 01:58:18.159 --> 01:58:21.439 is the thing I like. And, I don't know. A woman 01:58:21.439 --> 01:58:22.960 like that is just far too strong for me. But 01:58:22.960 --> 01:58:26.020 I think it also has a lot to do with Akari, too. 01:58:26.180 --> 01:58:29.140 Because she's, you know, Akari is her... kaji 01:58:29.140 --> 01:58:33.300 to oscar the older guy that was it was fucking 01:58:33.300 --> 01:58:35.100 her mom but she really wanted and then eventually 01:58:35.100 --> 01:58:37.720 got to fuck and then but it's one of those things 01:58:37.720 --> 01:58:40.460 where you can get why mazotto likes kaji he's 01:58:40.460 --> 01:58:42.399 charming and cool but if you like someone like 01:58:42.399 --> 01:58:45.779 akari you're kind of the devil you know like 01:58:46.479 --> 01:58:50.100 She's damaged as fuck. Of course she is. Ritsuko 01:58:50.100 --> 01:58:52.539 knows exactly what happened to her mom and what 01:58:52.539 --> 01:58:55.060 Rei is and all this stuff. Ritsuko is totally 01:58:55.060 --> 01:58:57.520 trapped. Actually, she doesn't really know everything 01:58:57.520 --> 01:58:59.300 because in the end she's asking Ikari something 01:58:59.300 --> 01:59:01.920 that she doesn't get an answer to in the final 01:59:01.920 --> 01:59:04.619 movie. But she knows almost everything. Well, 01:59:04.619 --> 01:59:06.760 and her hope is false hope, perpetually, in a 01:59:06.760 --> 01:59:09.840 way that almost no one else's is. In the end 01:59:09.840 --> 01:59:12.859 of Evangelion, Gendo says, like, one final thing 01:59:12.859 --> 01:59:15.140 to Ritsuko, but it's like, you don't hear it. 01:59:15.140 --> 01:59:16.380 Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. There's 01:59:16.380 --> 01:59:19.220 no sound. And then she says, liar. Yeah. But 01:59:19.220 --> 01:59:21.439 she likes what she heard. You can tell that, 01:59:21.460 --> 01:59:24.399 like, she smiles and starts to tear up. And then 01:59:24.399 --> 01:59:27.539 she says, liar. And then he shoots her. In the 01:59:27.539 --> 01:59:29.720 manga, he straight up just says that he loves 01:59:29.720 --> 01:59:34.100 her. And then she says, liar. So Sanamoto, like, 01:59:34.140 --> 01:59:36.800 just filled that in or whatever. But Anno did 01:59:36.800 --> 01:59:40.560 not want to give us that. that moment of that 01:59:40.560 --> 01:59:43.060 cathartic moment. Yeah. Yeah. But also like, 01:59:43.100 --> 01:59:46.180 could you imagine hearing Jendo say that to begin 01:59:46.180 --> 01:59:49.020 with? That's like, it's almost like, yeah. Nobody 01:59:49.020 --> 01:59:53.619 says I love you to anybody in this show. That's 01:59:53.619 --> 01:59:55.640 the thing. It's like, say the, like using those 01:59:55.640 --> 01:59:58.000 words, like that is a strong thing to say to 01:59:58.000 --> 02:00:00.979 a person in this reality. Yep. Those are like 02:00:00.979 --> 02:00:04.300 the. The strongest words. I mean, that's a perfect 02:00:04.300 --> 02:00:06.939 encapsulation of fascism, though, right? Like 02:00:06.939 --> 02:00:09.100 where it's a world of repression where we all 02:00:09.100 --> 02:00:11.819 recognize our impulses, but we can't articulate 02:00:11.819 --> 02:00:14.119 any of them. I guess I think that's another reason 02:00:14.119 --> 02:00:16.680 why I like Asuka so much. Like you said earlier, 02:00:16.979 --> 02:00:19.319 it's like she's an extrovert. She wears her emotions 02:00:19.319 --> 02:00:22.909 on her sleeve. Yeah. But at the same time, though, 02:00:22.970 --> 02:00:25.829 those aren't always her real emotions. No, she's 02:00:25.829 --> 02:00:28.270 a 14 -year -old girl. Yeah, and she's constantly 02:00:28.270 --> 02:00:30.949 projecting and analyzing those projections. I 02:00:30.949 --> 02:00:34.649 mean, she's constantly, like, giving Shinji shit 02:00:34.649 --> 02:00:36.930 and calling him an idiot. And, like, all of that 02:00:36.930 --> 02:00:38.689 is to mask the fact that she's attracted to him. 02:00:38.729 --> 02:00:40.609 She likes him. And she's in competition with 02:00:40.609 --> 02:00:42.850 him. She says that, though. She sometimes says, 02:00:42.989 --> 02:00:45.670 like, you know, I hate all of you, I hate all 02:00:45.670 --> 02:00:47.770 of you, but who do I hate most? I hate me. And 02:00:47.770 --> 02:00:49.880 it's like... Yeah, I mean, it makes perfect sense. 02:00:50.000 --> 02:00:52.119 She's no idiot, but, yeah, her intelligence is 02:00:52.119 --> 02:00:55.380 what makes her so fucked up and, like, confused. 02:00:55.779 --> 02:00:58.979 I mean, she's what? Like, I forgot, like, what 02:00:58.979 --> 02:01:01.039 they said her credentials are, basically, but 02:01:01.039 --> 02:01:02.760 she's, like, a 14 -year -old who's already been 02:01:02.760 --> 02:01:06.079 through college and has, like, a PhD or some 02:01:06.079 --> 02:01:08.300 shit, can speak, like, seven languages. But, 02:01:08.319 --> 02:01:12.579 you know, like, after COVID, college really lowered 02:01:12.579 --> 02:01:15.439 the standards, and I would bet after Second Impact 02:01:15.439 --> 02:01:17.060 they lowered it even further. You know what I 02:01:17.060 --> 02:01:20.869 mean? Who knows what type of college she went 02:01:20.869 --> 02:01:23.710 to that was graduating Oscar. It still seemed 02:01:23.710 --> 02:01:25.810 to be an accomplishment, but then it's also like, 02:01:25.829 --> 02:01:28.130 why is she back in school then? Like, what grade 02:01:28.130 --> 02:01:31.140 is Shinji in? Right, right. I'm like, what is 02:01:31.140 --> 02:01:33.060 this? It's just like, that's what this archetype 02:01:33.060 --> 02:01:35.380 is. But to be fair, we never ever see class. 02:01:35.699 --> 02:01:37.939 Ever. No, we do the one time when he's lying 02:01:37.939 --> 02:01:39.819 to them about Second Impact in the first episode. 02:01:40.159 --> 02:01:42.239 Oh, that's a good point. Other than that, other 02:01:42.239 --> 02:01:44.779 than the one lie we hear. It's a re -education 02:01:44.779 --> 02:01:47.659 camp. It's not school. Yeah. It's a concentration 02:01:47.659 --> 02:01:50.579 camp for magical children. It's a waiting room 02:01:50.579 --> 02:01:53.720 for kids who are waiting to become paper pilots 02:01:53.720 --> 02:01:56.840 because their parents have been killed. It's 02:01:56.840 --> 02:02:01.640 Hogwarts. Yeah, it's Hogwarts. It's not a real 02:02:01.640 --> 02:02:04.000 school. It's just there to, yeah. But like, are 02:02:04.000 --> 02:02:05.640 there real schools anywhere? Like, what does 02:02:05.640 --> 02:02:07.960 the rest of the world look like in Evangelion? 02:02:07.960 --> 02:02:09.920 We never see anywhere outside of Tokyo. Tokyo 02:02:09.920 --> 02:02:12.699 3 is incredibly dead in the show. Yeah, yeah. 02:02:12.800 --> 02:02:15.279 Everyone has to be elsewhere, but like, what 02:02:15.279 --> 02:02:16.100 do those cities look like? It doesn't make any 02:02:16.100 --> 02:02:18.579 sense that anybody would live there. I saw one 02:02:18.579 --> 02:02:20.479 piece of art from the manga on a Reddit page 02:02:20.479 --> 02:02:22.520 where 9 -11 happened after the second impact, 02:02:22.640 --> 02:02:25.579 and I thought that was pretty funny. so that's 02:02:25.579 --> 02:02:28.420 my understanding of what's happening in the world 02:02:28.420 --> 02:02:31.579 it's just like well they still did 9 -11 so I 02:02:31.579 --> 02:02:34.439 don't know also the first impact was literally 02:02:34.439 --> 02:02:39.470 a celestial body hitting the earth Or at least 02:02:39.470 --> 02:02:41.750 this is the explanation in the manga. It was 02:02:41.750 --> 02:02:44.369 the white moon and black moon thing, right? With 02:02:44.369 --> 02:02:47.529 Lilith's white moon and Adam's black moon. They 02:02:47.529 --> 02:02:53.170 create the cavern that Nerv exists in. I can't 02:02:53.170 --> 02:02:54.789 remember if it's the black or white. I think 02:02:54.789 --> 02:02:56.930 it's the black moon that Lilith is. Lilith is 02:02:56.930 --> 02:02:59.869 the black moon. Lilith came from some other world. 02:03:00.470 --> 02:03:06.569 Adam was native to Earth. But in the Bible, Lilith's 02:03:06.569 --> 02:03:08.930 only from the Dead Sea Scrolls. But it's kind 02:03:08.930 --> 02:03:11.109 of like Lilith is, you know, in the Bible they 02:03:11.109 --> 02:03:13.949 say, like, God created man. And then later they 02:03:13.949 --> 02:03:16.630 say, like, God created Adam and Eve and stuff. 02:03:16.770 --> 02:03:17.810 Like, you know what I mean? He creates all the 02:03:17.810 --> 02:03:19.710 things. Like, everything happens twice in the 02:03:19.710 --> 02:03:22.789 Bible. Like, so theoretically, like, Lilith has 02:03:22.789 --> 02:03:25.369 to do with that original incarnation of creating 02:03:25.369 --> 02:03:28.010 man or whatever. And is, like, the patron saint 02:03:28.010 --> 02:03:30.989 of wet dreams and shit. Like, according to the 02:03:30.989 --> 02:03:32.689 Dead Sea Scroll. Like, it's all, like, weird 02:03:32.689 --> 02:03:35.699 Christian apocrypha stuff. I don't think this 02:03:35.699 --> 02:03:39.960 white moon, black moon shit matters at all. Like, 02:03:39.960 --> 02:03:42.119 I think it's... All of this stuff is very fun. 02:03:42.180 --> 02:03:44.039 Like, trying to figure out what Kaji was doing 02:03:44.039 --> 02:03:45.920 at any point in the series is very fun. And I 02:03:45.920 --> 02:03:48.140 like re -watching it being like, oh, fuck, what's 02:03:48.140 --> 02:03:50.319 he... But it's because you never actually figure 02:03:50.319 --> 02:03:51.880 it out. Like, it's because there's no actual 02:03:51.880 --> 02:03:54.079 thing. Like, and that's what's so great about 02:03:54.079 --> 02:03:56.159 the series is, like, it's like, dude, just so 02:03:56.159 --> 02:03:57.579 you know, there's no thing. We're just, like, 02:03:57.680 --> 02:04:00.159 this is what it is. Like... When Kaji's off screen, 02:04:00.260 --> 02:04:03.380 everybody should be asking, where's Kaji? he's 02:04:03.380 --> 02:04:05.880 growing his watermelons man yeah he's a melon 02:04:05.880 --> 02:04:08.039 farmer but it's just like growing watermelons 02:04:08.039 --> 02:04:11.420 like on the horizon of a fucking giant mech battle 02:04:11.420 --> 02:04:14.100 perpetually i find that very funny well not not 02:04:14.100 --> 02:04:18.220 perpetually it's in the geo front so it that 02:04:18.220 --> 02:04:20.899 does get breached in like one of the last that's 02:04:20.899 --> 02:04:23.579 a good bites right right yeah the the battle 02:04:23.579 --> 02:04:26.270 i think it's the battle where ray dies It might 02:04:26.270 --> 02:04:28.170 even be the second -to -last angel, because the 02:04:28.170 --> 02:04:30.489 last one's Kwaru. It is. But I think that's the 02:04:30.489 --> 02:04:32.090 one where they're fighting in the Geo front, 02:04:32.229 --> 02:04:35.029 and Rei sacrifices herself. Right. And, like, 02:04:35.029 --> 02:04:37.829 Shinji's, like, not piloting the Eve at first, 02:04:37.949 --> 02:04:40.590 and then, like, he's down there, and Kwaru's 02:04:40.590 --> 02:04:42.649 just out there tending to his watermelons as 02:04:42.649 --> 02:04:45.350 this fucking battle's going on. He's like, all 02:04:45.350 --> 02:04:47.310 I can do is take care of my watermelons, but 02:04:47.310 --> 02:04:49.590 you, Shinji, there's something you can do. And 02:04:49.590 --> 02:04:51.949 he's playing him, too. He's just another fucking... 02:04:51.949 --> 02:04:55.920 Handler. Every single person. It's so weird because 02:04:55.920 --> 02:04:57.939 it never feels like Shang -Chi really does have 02:04:57.939 --> 02:05:01.699 a choice. But then the end of the show is kind 02:05:01.699 --> 02:05:03.220 of like, you always have a choice. It's a matter 02:05:03.220 --> 02:05:07.560 of perspective. But it's true. The thing about 02:05:07.560 --> 02:05:10.159 the end of the show that I think works so well 02:05:10.159 --> 02:05:14.319 for me is the conversation that happens in the 02:05:14.319 --> 02:05:17.199 first episode. It talks about... You know, everything 02:05:17.199 --> 02:05:18.960 that's been happening and where all these people 02:05:18.960 --> 02:05:20.479 are and their relationships to each other and 02:05:20.479 --> 02:05:22.039 the me that exists in your head and the you that 02:05:22.039 --> 02:05:23.699 exists in my head and all that stuff. And then 02:05:23.699 --> 02:05:26.079 the last episode is really just like Shinji just 02:05:26.079 --> 02:05:27.800 being like, but I'm sad. And they're like, yeah, 02:05:27.819 --> 02:05:29.819 but you don't have to be. He's like, yeah, but 02:05:29.819 --> 02:05:31.699 I hate myself. They're like, okay, why? Like, 02:05:31.699 --> 02:05:34.100 why don't you, you could find meaning here, you 02:05:34.100 --> 02:05:34.960 could find meaning there. And he's like, yeah, 02:05:34.979 --> 02:05:36.640 but I hate myself. And he's like, yeah, but like, 02:05:36.659 --> 02:05:38.039 what about all this? And he's like, but I hate 02:05:38.039 --> 02:05:40.000 myself. Until it just becomes like, dude, this 02:05:40.000 --> 02:05:41.800 is just a mantra. Like, this is just, there's 02:05:41.800 --> 02:05:43.899 nothing connected to this other than I hate myself. 02:05:44.180 --> 02:05:45.579 That's the only thing you need to get rid of. 02:05:45.960 --> 02:05:47.800 Literally, it's just that you keep coming back 02:05:47.800 --> 02:05:49.079 to this thing that actually doesn't have any 02:05:49.079 --> 02:05:50.479 connection to any of these ideas anymore. You 02:05:50.479 --> 02:05:52.619 can't say why you hate yourself. You can't explain 02:05:52.619 --> 02:05:54.760 why you're sad. It's just that you're choosing 02:05:54.760 --> 02:05:59.140 to be in this horrible world where a girl getting 02:05:59.140 --> 02:06:01.340 her period is not just like, oh, cute, she's 02:06:01.340 --> 02:06:02.779 growing up, she got her period. Oh, maybe she'll 02:06:02.779 --> 02:06:05.079 get red on her pants. Who the fuck says cute? 02:06:05.380 --> 02:06:11.039 I don't know. Turning red. It's not just like 02:06:11.039 --> 02:06:13.359 some thing of like, oh, we're growing up and 02:06:13.359 --> 02:06:16.359 things or whatever. It's like... uh this might 02:06:16.359 --> 02:06:19.239 be embarrassing for you instead it's like oscar's 02:06:19.239 --> 02:06:22.060 deteriorating in a bathtub muttering about her 02:06:22.060 --> 02:06:24.399 dead mother with her period blood smeared all 02:06:24.399 --> 02:06:27.220 over like it just like thin as because she's 02:06:27.220 --> 02:06:29.560 like dying because she's so depressed and whatever 02:06:29.560 --> 02:06:31.819 it's like it could be like okay the girl's in 02:06:31.819 --> 02:06:33.539 a bad mood or it could be like oh my god it's 02:06:33.539 --> 02:06:35.779 the horrors of the body that we all go through 02:06:35.779 --> 02:06:38.000 because we're all just like horrible monsters 02:06:38.000 --> 02:06:41.340 of humans that are like like we're all avas that 02:06:41.340 --> 02:06:43.300 are just like working with like i don't know 02:06:43.300 --> 02:06:45.720 it's like the way of seeing the world in the 02:06:45.720 --> 02:06:48.159 show is just so incredibly dark but there's no 02:06:48.159 --> 02:06:50.869 need to be and like that's the whole him saying 02:06:50.869 --> 02:06:52.989 over and over like i hate myself i hate myself 02:06:52.989 --> 02:06:54.250 and i just be like dude but what if you just 02:06:54.250 --> 02:06:56.829 like fine then don't be that person anymore but 02:06:56.829 --> 02:06:58.909 yeah but i mean i think the hard thing is that 02:06:58.909 --> 02:07:00.829 easy the hard thing is that shinji is a character 02:07:00.829 --> 02:07:03.510 who has no capability for introspection at all 02:07:03.510 --> 02:07:06.409 so like the thing is like i feel bad i don't 02:07:06.409 --> 02:07:09.149 know why i feel bad and then what you come back 02:07:09.149 --> 02:07:12.449 to is but i feel bad right yeah and but i think 02:07:12.449 --> 02:07:15.750 it's only after like an hour of that conversation 02:07:15.750 --> 02:07:17.810 happening you could just be like yeah but dude 02:07:17.810 --> 02:07:20.109 you don't have to and then be like oh And it's 02:07:20.109 --> 02:07:22.109 like, and it's not stupid. It's like, it's a 02:07:22.109 --> 02:07:24.130 blind. I think that's like one of the bigger 02:07:24.130 --> 02:07:26.170 themes of the show though, is that like, I mean 02:07:26.170 --> 02:07:29.390 that like two steps forward, three steps backward 02:07:29.390 --> 02:07:30.770 type of thing where it's like, oh, I've learned 02:07:30.770 --> 02:07:32.890 something. And the revelation turns out to be 02:07:32.890 --> 02:07:35.890 false where it ends up being like very quixotic 02:07:35.890 --> 02:07:39.210 and it becomes impossible to enact any change 02:07:39.210 --> 02:07:41.350 because too many things are happening. You know 02:07:41.350 --> 02:07:43.670 what I mean? Totally. Or like too much damage 02:07:43.670 --> 02:07:46.289 has already been done or something. I think like, 02:07:47.020 --> 02:07:50.800 ano's initial intent with the show was to create 02:07:50.800 --> 02:07:53.260 something where all the characters would start 02:07:53.260 --> 02:07:55.619 off in a really bad place and then by the end 02:07:55.619 --> 02:07:57.460 they would be better yeah that's what he said 02:07:57.460 --> 02:08:00.130 like they would like learn to connect they would 02:08:00.130 --> 02:08:02.529 like become a community like and that's what 02:08:02.529 --> 02:08:04.069 the beginning of the show is is they're learning 02:08:04.069 --> 02:08:06.930 to like shinji is learning to get along with 02:08:06.930 --> 02:08:08.710 asuka and they have to sync up and it's like 02:08:08.710 --> 02:08:10.869 a girl going on a date with a boy and it's like 02:08:10.869 --> 02:08:12.970 it's all these like just learning to deal like 02:08:12.970 --> 02:08:14.609 the second angel just looks like a giant penis 02:08:14.609 --> 02:08:16.930 right that like shinji's dealing with like masculine 02:08:16.930 --> 02:08:18.850 issues while the boy at school is beating him 02:08:18.850 --> 02:08:20.869 up and like it's all of these things are just 02:08:20.869 --> 02:08:23.630 learning to grow up stuff and then it totally 02:08:23.630 --> 02:08:27.270 just ano's so depressed that he can't Like none 02:08:27.270 --> 02:08:29.170 of those things make anything better. It is just 02:08:29.170 --> 02:08:31.210 getting more and more into this, like, but I 02:08:31.210 --> 02:08:33.609 hate myself, but everything is horrible, but 02:08:33.609 --> 02:08:35.550 it is all about my mother being this thing. And 02:08:35.550 --> 02:08:37.470 my father is making me do this. And I have no, 02:08:37.510 --> 02:08:41.329 like, it's all so much darker. Well, things out 02:08:41.329 --> 02:08:43.590 of Shinji's control start to get in the way a 02:08:43.590 --> 02:08:46.789 little more halfway through the series. And him 02:08:46.789 --> 02:08:49.350 being put up against Toji is like a really big 02:08:49.350 --> 02:08:52.250 turning point. You know, things don't really 02:08:52.250 --> 02:08:56.329 like recover from that point. yeah it just gets 02:08:56.329 --> 02:08:58.210 worse and worse for everybody and like pretty 02:08:58.210 --> 02:09:01.130 much every character is just like destroyed by 02:09:01.130 --> 02:09:03.850 the end of the show and then like actually just 02:09:03.850 --> 02:09:07.430 like murdered in the movie for the most part 02:09:07.430 --> 02:09:12.170 but then in a postscript kind of way says life 02:09:12.170 --> 02:09:16.869 goes on and like not even this most horrible 02:09:16.869 --> 02:09:20.289 timeline needs to be it like it's like in the 02:09:20.289 --> 02:09:22.930 end it's like everything you experience this 02:09:22.930 --> 02:09:25.369 timeline is just as legit as any other timeline. 02:09:26.090 --> 02:09:28.270 It's like also part of the reason why Evangelion 02:09:28.270 --> 02:09:31.850 can just like have so many versions. Yeah. You 02:09:31.850 --> 02:09:34.229 know, which we'll someday get into in another 02:09:34.229 --> 02:09:38.069 episode, but yes, they're not all remakes of 02:09:38.069 --> 02:09:41.289 the same thing. They're different. I think that's 02:09:41.289 --> 02:09:43.609 why at the end of the show, there's that, there's 02:09:43.609 --> 02:09:45.489 that other mantra. Cause like a lot of it is 02:09:45.489 --> 02:09:48.329 just mantras and the, the shifting of the mantra 02:09:48.329 --> 02:09:51.289 and whatever, but the, uh, The thing where he's 02:09:51.289 --> 02:09:54.989 saying, this is the world you wished for. Like 02:09:54.989 --> 02:09:57.590 specifically, you know, like this is the world 02:09:57.590 --> 02:10:00.649 you wished for. So that's why all events went 02:10:00.649 --> 02:10:03.949 the way they did. Because you had no hope and 02:10:03.949 --> 02:10:06.829 you had no vision. Yeah, they're just talking 02:10:06.829 --> 02:10:09.930 right to Anu. Yeah, you just had let things happen 02:10:09.930 --> 02:10:11.890 to you. I'm not even talking to Shinji anymore. 02:10:12.029 --> 02:10:15.300 Almost like passive self -determinism. But then 02:10:15.300 --> 02:10:17.579 it's punctuated by the characters sort of like 02:10:17.579 --> 02:10:20.779 remembering all these beautiful moments of warmth 02:10:20.779 --> 02:10:24.039 and connection they had with people. A lot of 02:10:24.039 --> 02:10:27.859 those moments are flashbacks of Misato's apartment. 02:10:28.060 --> 02:10:30.100 You know, when they're all together there having 02:10:30.100 --> 02:10:33.159 dinner together and Shinji's cooking food for 02:10:33.159 --> 02:10:35.779 everybody. Yeah, the birthday party thing. I 02:10:35.779 --> 02:10:38.979 think that montage at the end of the movie is... 02:10:39.720 --> 02:10:42.579 One of the greatest montages in the history of 02:10:42.579 --> 02:10:45.399 film. Like, when the music starts playing, you 02:10:45.399 --> 02:10:49.319 know, it all comes tumbling down. And you see 02:10:49.319 --> 02:10:52.579 all of the, like, the art done by sick kids. 02:10:53.140 --> 02:10:56.800 Like, abused kids. It's, like, the fish head 02:10:56.800 --> 02:10:59.579 and the, like, angry scribbles and all this, 02:10:59.680 --> 02:11:00.979 like, stuff. I don't know if the fish head was 02:11:00.979 --> 02:11:02.560 an abuse. But some of those things were from 02:11:02.560 --> 02:11:05.819 some, like, psychology seminar with kids thing 02:11:05.819 --> 02:11:07.199 or something. Like, you know what I mean? That 02:11:07.199 --> 02:11:10.359 was, like, real fucked up, like. art that feels 02:11:10.359 --> 02:11:13.359 sad you know what i mean and that all happening 02:11:13.359 --> 02:11:18.539 while shinji's strangling asuka like is so like 02:11:18.539 --> 02:11:22.159 it's insane it's like it like breaks my mind 02:11:22.159 --> 02:11:24.079 or something there's something so insane about 02:11:24.079 --> 02:11:26.300 it it's like such a super stimulus it's so like 02:11:26.300 --> 02:11:33.180 negative and the song is so like ironically like 02:11:33.770 --> 02:11:35.989 poppy or whatever i mean all the lyrics are just 02:11:35.989 --> 02:11:37.609 like talking about suicide i don't know that 02:11:37.609 --> 02:11:39.890 translates to the japanese audiences as much 02:11:39.890 --> 02:11:42.630 as it does to us but that juxtaposition of that 02:11:42.630 --> 02:11:45.149 music and just like the most horrifying like 02:11:45.149 --> 02:11:49.149 end of times like the antichrist is rising and 02:11:49.149 --> 02:11:53.630 we're seeing like the hate mail and like live 02:11:53.630 --> 02:11:56.789 action people like it just it just becomes something 02:11:56.789 --> 02:12:00.649 that is so pure art that I think it works outside 02:12:00.649 --> 02:12:03.930 of the context of the film even completely. I 02:12:03.930 --> 02:12:06.770 feel like you could not see any Evangelion or 02:12:06.770 --> 02:12:08.710 anything and just watch that scene, and it's 02:12:08.710 --> 02:12:10.810 like you have no idea what's happening, but there 02:12:10.810 --> 02:12:14.149 is something that works there as a music video. 02:12:14.310 --> 02:12:17.210 I don't know. Maybe that would just be a shallow 02:12:17.210 --> 02:12:19.409 experience. But I think there's something so 02:12:19.409 --> 02:12:22.869 cinematic about that. I think the vibes hit hard. 02:12:23.340 --> 02:12:26.279 Like I said, I think I probably understand the 02:12:26.279 --> 02:12:28.239 end of the movie even less than the end of the 02:12:28.239 --> 02:12:33.159 show. Right. Like, the moment of Shinji choking 02:12:33.159 --> 02:12:37.119 Asuka out, her putting her hand on his cheek 02:12:37.119 --> 02:12:41.949 in this soft, gentle way, and then him... crying 02:12:41.949 --> 02:12:44.350 on her face and then her saying disgusting like 02:12:44.350 --> 02:12:48.090 it's or I'm sick or I feel sick or there's like 02:12:48.090 --> 02:12:51.630 30 translations for that and the I like I feel 02:12:51.630 --> 02:12:53.649 sick one has been interpreted as a pregnancy 02:12:53.649 --> 02:12:56.710 thing like there's so many different ways people 02:12:56.710 --> 02:12:59.170 have read into these yeah that's a tough that's 02:12:59.170 --> 02:13:01.890 a tough thing also that's something the show 02:13:01.890 --> 02:13:05.989 always played with the show doesn't use primarily 02:13:05.989 --> 02:13:08.989 japanese language and a lot of it's like the 02:13:08.989 --> 02:13:11.710 way it names things there's a lot of german yeah 02:13:11.710 --> 02:13:15.949 and it like it has two titles for every episode 02:13:15.949 --> 02:13:19.350 a japanese title and an english title i think 02:13:19.350 --> 02:13:23.689 it's like somewhat aware of like translation 02:13:23.689 --> 02:13:26.390 and how things can get lost in translation just 02:13:26.390 --> 02:13:28.350 like plays with that a little bit just speaking 02:13:28.350 --> 02:13:30.750 of the titles in translation the the last one 02:13:31.260 --> 02:13:33.260 the beast that shouted I at the heart of the 02:13:33.260 --> 02:13:35.060 world, or the beast that shouted love at the 02:13:35.060 --> 02:13:37.640 heart of the world, depending on how it's translated. 02:13:38.100 --> 02:13:40.600 Have you ever read that story? You know that 02:13:40.600 --> 02:13:43.819 story? No. It's a Harlan Ellison short story. 02:13:44.560 --> 02:13:48.659 And it's like... It's like very abstract and 02:13:48.659 --> 02:13:51.420 very weird, but it's kind of about this idea 02:13:51.420 --> 02:13:53.760 of eternal evil or something. And there's stuff 02:13:53.760 --> 02:13:57.159 happening in the future with like some scientific 02:13:57.159 --> 02:13:59.619 society, like science fiction society that like 02:13:59.619 --> 02:14:02.100 all has names for stuff that we don't understand 02:14:02.100 --> 02:14:03.399 or anything like, you know what I mean? It's 02:14:03.399 --> 02:14:06.300 very abstract. But at the same time as all that 02:14:06.300 --> 02:14:08.560 stuff, there's like a story of a guy on Earth 02:14:08.560 --> 02:14:12.840 who one day he like. Packs up his mom's book 02:14:12.840 --> 02:14:14.720 bag with like a bunch of explosives, sends her 02:14:14.720 --> 02:14:16.840 off on a plane, blows up the plane in the sky 02:14:16.840 --> 02:14:20.560 and like enjoys the ashes of his mother falling 02:14:20.560 --> 02:14:23.020 down on him. And then later that day, he goes 02:14:23.020 --> 02:14:25.539 to a football stadium with a bunch of guns and 02:14:25.539 --> 02:14:27.880 opens up fire on the whole crowd and whatever. 02:14:28.279 --> 02:14:31.199 It's a really fucking nuts, disturbing story. 02:14:31.640 --> 02:14:34.079 And the science fiction element of it, they're 02:14:34.079 --> 02:14:36.479 like juxtaposition of like this. like it's almost 02:14:36.479 --> 02:14:39.819 the the end of evangelion montage vibe like it's 02:14:39.819 --> 02:14:43.159 a it's a really surrealist like thing juxtaposed 02:14:43.159 --> 02:14:46.039 with just like this horrible violent like mass 02:14:46.039 --> 02:14:49.720 mass violence um episode which again like really 02:14:49.720 --> 02:14:52.289 makes me think about Anno and The End and the 02:14:52.289 --> 02:14:54.270 connection to Om Shinrikyo and like what that 02:14:54.270 --> 02:14:56.850 may have what that title may have been for or 02:14:56.850 --> 02:14:58.630 what it may not have been for you know what I 02:14:58.630 --> 02:15:00.710 mean there's something very interesting about 02:15:00.710 --> 02:15:02.930 about that and when they translated it to from 02:15:02.930 --> 02:15:05.250 the ADV dubs they like changed the title to The 02:15:05.250 --> 02:15:07.090 Beast That Shouted I at the Heart of the World 02:15:07.090 --> 02:15:10.699 in order to like I don't know. Matt Greenfield 02:15:10.699 --> 02:15:12.699 was on a DVD explaining why at some point. I 02:15:12.699 --> 02:15:15.359 forget. But he had some high -minded idea about 02:15:15.359 --> 02:15:20.600 it. The ADV translations are much better. At 02:15:20.600 --> 02:15:24.420 least the dub is much better to listen to. It's 02:15:24.420 --> 02:15:29.399 much more natural. But it's not necessarily... 02:15:29.880 --> 02:15:32.039 They take artistic license with it occasionally, 02:15:32.300 --> 02:15:33.760 you know what I mean? So it sounds much more 02:15:33.760 --> 02:15:36.199 natural, but it's maybe less accurate than other 02:15:36.199 --> 02:15:38.260 translations, like the Netflix translation or 02:15:38.260 --> 02:15:41.039 something. When I started rewatching this time, 02:15:41.180 --> 02:15:43.159 I tried watching the Netflix translation, and 02:15:43.159 --> 02:15:46.520 I just, like, I could not do it. It really feels 02:15:46.520 --> 02:15:49.850 like they're not actually translating. the show, 02:15:49.909 --> 02:15:52.149 they just got somebody who didn't speak Japanese 02:15:52.149 --> 02:15:54.470 to do a new translation for them who just went 02:15:54.470 --> 02:15:56.710 and watched the other show in English and changed 02:15:56.710 --> 02:15:59.329 a couple of words. They just make all of the 02:15:59.329 --> 02:16:01.970 sentences reversed instead of being like, oh, 02:16:01.970 --> 02:16:03.829 there he is over there. It's like, over there 02:16:03.829 --> 02:16:06.369 is where he is. You know what I mean? All of 02:16:06.369 --> 02:16:08.670 the things just feel like the unnatural way to 02:16:08.670 --> 02:16:10.470 say something very simple. Josh, how did you 02:16:10.470 --> 02:16:12.170 watch it? Did you watch it on Netflix? I watched 02:16:12.170 --> 02:16:16.250 it. Mike gave me discs. I had to watch the third 02:16:16.250 --> 02:16:20.439 and fourth disc. are weirdly the same episodes. 02:16:20.659 --> 02:16:22.659 Yeah, but there's the regular episodes and the 02:16:22.659 --> 02:16:27.840 director's cut. Ah, okay. So what I did was for 02:16:27.840 --> 02:16:29.979 those episodes that I thought I was missing, 02:16:30.140 --> 02:16:34.020 I watched the Netflix ones. But yeah, I did that 02:16:34.020 --> 02:16:39.799 twice. And then I watched the movie on Netflix, 02:16:39.920 --> 02:16:42.889 so I guess I should have. not done that. The 02:16:42.889 --> 02:16:44.969 movie, I think, is probably better than the show 02:16:44.969 --> 02:16:47.250 as far as the awkwardness of the translation. 02:16:47.370 --> 02:16:49.010 But I don't really know because I have not been 02:16:49.010 --> 02:16:51.190 able to get through. They're very awkward. And 02:16:51.190 --> 02:16:54.629 the voiceovers, the English dubbing is terrible. 02:16:55.370 --> 02:16:59.319 It's really... I'm subs only. Okay, subs only. 02:16:59.540 --> 02:17:02.739 I did subs this time too. When I was a middle 02:17:02.739 --> 02:17:04.840 schooler, I did the dub all the time and whatever. 02:17:04.979 --> 02:17:07.860 And the ADV dub is not bad. The ADV dub is very 02:17:07.860 --> 02:17:10.700 watchable. I like the ADV dub. They do a good 02:17:10.700 --> 02:17:13.319 job. It's emotionally real. I generally watch 02:17:13.319 --> 02:17:17.819 the show with the ADV dub. But this time I watched 02:17:17.819 --> 02:17:21.579 the movie with subs and the end of Evangelion. 02:17:21.799 --> 02:17:25.659 They put effort into it back then because that 02:17:25.659 --> 02:17:28.409 was what their company was focused on. This one 02:17:28.409 --> 02:17:30.149 was just Netflix was like, oh, we can't get the 02:17:30.149 --> 02:17:32.670 rights unless we pay you how much? No, we'll 02:17:32.670 --> 02:17:34.270 do it ourselves. Is that what happened? Yeah. 02:17:34.370 --> 02:17:40.069 I mean, also, ADV went under and nobody really 02:17:40.069 --> 02:17:44.030 knew where the rights were to the actual translation. 02:17:44.030 --> 02:17:47.649 So they've been out of print for many, many years 02:17:47.649 --> 02:17:50.389 until Netflix came out with it again. And they 02:17:50.389 --> 02:17:51.969 had to do a whole new dub because they didn't 02:17:51.969 --> 02:17:53.670 have the rights to the ADV stuff. Interesting. 02:17:54.440 --> 02:17:55.700 And they also didn't have the rights to the final 02:17:55.700 --> 02:17:57.940 closing music, which is not on any of these releases. 02:17:57.940 --> 02:18:00.600 It should be Fly Me to the Moon at the end of 02:18:00.600 --> 02:18:02.920 every episode. And they're sung by different 02:18:02.920 --> 02:18:06.000 members of the cast a bunch of the time, too, 02:18:06.100 --> 02:18:10.059 in different versions. Fly Me to the Moon is 02:18:10.059 --> 02:18:12.420 on the discs. It is on the discs, yeah. I got 02:18:12.420 --> 02:18:16.079 some really good bootleg Blu -rays that had several 02:18:16.079 --> 02:18:18.420 translations. Yeah, I watched through the entire 02:18:18.420 --> 02:18:23.079 show on Netflix once. because yeah i think at 02:18:23.079 --> 02:18:25.500 the time it had just been added to netflix and 02:18:25.500 --> 02:18:27.260 i didn't have access to it otherwise and i was 02:18:27.260 --> 02:18:29.340 like awesome and i like started watching it with 02:18:29.340 --> 02:18:33.000 my girlfriend at the time or something but yeah 02:18:33.000 --> 02:18:35.280 it's like even for a person who hasn't seen the 02:18:35.280 --> 02:18:38.159 show like a million times like stuff was standing 02:18:38.159 --> 02:18:41.180 out to me it's just it's very unnatural is the 02:18:41.180 --> 02:18:43.620 problem really weird it's i don't remember being 02:18:43.620 --> 02:18:46.799 like that but they did a very bad job and it's 02:18:46.799 --> 02:18:49.649 misrepresenting the show but They also theoretically 02:18:49.649 --> 02:18:53.590 made Kwaru less gay. That was the big controversy. 02:18:53.610 --> 02:18:55.190 I think we watched the whole thing with subs 02:18:55.190 --> 02:18:58.569 on Netflix. But they took out the I love you 02:18:58.569 --> 02:19:01.250 Shinji, right? I don't know. Yeah, I think they 02:19:01.250 --> 02:19:04.030 changed I love you Kwaru saying to Shinji that 02:19:04.030 --> 02:19:05.469 he loved him. I'm pretty sure they changed that 02:19:05.469 --> 02:19:09.450 to like I like you. Like there's some part that 02:19:09.450 --> 02:19:11.510 they... Of the Kawaru situation. I'm pretty sure 02:19:11.510 --> 02:19:12.809 it's that. I think he doesn't say I love you 02:19:12.809 --> 02:19:14.829 anymore. I think you are correct. Yeah. I think 02:19:14.829 --> 02:19:16.750 you are correct about that, that he says, because 02:19:16.750 --> 02:19:20.149 I like you, Shinji. Yeah. And no, like, the thing 02:19:20.149 --> 02:19:25.209 is, the translation is strange because the word 02:19:25.209 --> 02:19:27.590 that they use in Japanese apparently can mean 02:19:27.590 --> 02:19:30.549 both. And it's not necessarily a romantic type 02:19:30.549 --> 02:19:33.930 of love word, blah, blah, blah. And when they 02:19:33.930 --> 02:19:35.909 did this translation, this whole new Netflix 02:19:35.909 --> 02:19:39.350 translation was overseen by Studio Kahara. who 02:19:39.350 --> 02:19:41.409 is the studio that's making all the new Alien 02:19:41.409 --> 02:19:43.729 Alien movies. It's what Gainax, the new company 02:19:43.729 --> 02:19:46.770 Anno made after Gainax and stuff. But there was 02:19:46.770 --> 02:19:49.010 controversy about that, and I'm pretty sure it 02:19:49.010 --> 02:19:51.090 was Anno himself or at least some representative 02:19:51.090 --> 02:19:52.450 of the studio of Colorado who was like, nah, 02:19:52.549 --> 02:19:55.500 dude, this is not gay. You guys... We're not 02:19:55.500 --> 02:19:58.979 into that gay shit. This is just two boys in 02:19:58.979 --> 02:20:01.559 a fucking shower playing with each other and 02:20:01.559 --> 02:20:03.139 telling them that they love each other. I mean, 02:20:03.159 --> 02:20:06.700 not in a gay way. There was a response in America 02:20:06.700 --> 02:20:08.340 that was like, oh, this gay erasure thing or 02:20:08.340 --> 02:20:10.559 whatever, and they responded to that being like, 02:20:10.620 --> 02:20:13.340 no, no, no, you fucking anime faggots. What the 02:20:13.340 --> 02:20:15.920 fuck are you thinking? This is just two boys. 02:20:18.239 --> 02:20:22.500 Yeah, and Sadamoto actually responds to that 02:20:22.500 --> 02:20:25.120 in the manga. Oh, does he? In a pretty visceral 02:20:25.120 --> 02:20:28.659 way. Like, Kasada Moto, like... Not into that 02:20:28.659 --> 02:20:30.700 gay shit? Yeah, he's not into that gay shit. 02:20:30.780 --> 02:20:32.700 I think even in some of his, like, liner notes 02:20:32.700 --> 02:20:35.299 that happen between volumes and stuff, it's very 02:20:35.299 --> 02:20:38.819 clear that, like, homosexuality is weird to him. 02:20:39.120 --> 02:20:42.840 Yeah. And there's, like, a... Japanese are not 02:20:42.840 --> 02:20:45.739 a super... The Kwaru thing is one of the biggest 02:20:45.739 --> 02:20:47.860 differences in the manga, which I'm glad got 02:20:47.860 --> 02:20:50.239 brought up, because I almost... Almost didn't 02:20:50.239 --> 02:20:51.719 talk about it. There's a really great scene where 02:20:51.719 --> 02:20:54.280 he kills a cat, right? That I always think about. 02:20:54.620 --> 02:20:57.659 Yeah, so Kwaru basically, like, as you know, 02:20:57.680 --> 02:21:00.440 in the show, Kwaru's entire arc is in one episode. 02:21:00.540 --> 02:21:02.479 He shows up, he's introduced at the beginning 02:21:02.479 --> 02:21:04.280 of an episode, and then by the end of the episode, 02:21:04.319 --> 02:21:06.360 he's killed. And he's, like, one of the most 02:21:06.360 --> 02:21:09.000 popular characters in the merchandising of the 02:21:09.000 --> 02:21:11.780 show, period. Maybe the most popular. Or maybe 02:21:11.780 --> 02:21:13.819 really, I don't know. And then there is this 02:21:13.819 --> 02:21:17.030 whole... angle with like just how quickly shinji 02:21:17.030 --> 02:21:20.610 sort of falls for him and the weird bromance 02:21:20.610 --> 02:21:25.510 nature of it and um so sadamota's version of 02:21:25.510 --> 02:21:29.469 kwaru in the manga is almost like he's a sociopath 02:21:29.469 --> 02:21:32.049 he's a sociopath he's an edgelord he's kind of 02:21:32.049 --> 02:21:35.209 like not likable but he's also how angels are 02:21:35.209 --> 02:21:37.209 in the bible angels don't have morality sure 02:21:37.209 --> 02:21:40.729 exactly although that's from the tree of knowledge 02:21:41.770 --> 02:21:43.350 Anyway, when it comes to the cat thing, Shinji 02:21:43.350 --> 02:21:46.790 finds, like, a sick cat on the road, and, like, 02:21:46.850 --> 02:21:49.610 he, like, gives it some food or something, or, 02:21:49.610 --> 02:21:51.690 like, he pets it, and the cat starts following 02:21:51.690 --> 02:21:55.010 him. So I think Shinji's, like, doesn't really 02:21:55.010 --> 02:21:57.149 want to commit to helping this cat, but kind 02:21:57.149 --> 02:22:00.010 of hopes that somebody will. And Kaworu shows 02:22:00.010 --> 02:22:03.590 up, and Kaworu kills this cat with his bare hands. 02:22:03.750 --> 02:22:07.790 He, like, snaps his neck or whatever. And Shinji's 02:22:07.790 --> 02:22:10.040 just, like, horrified. It's like, why would you 02:22:10.040 --> 02:22:12.520 do that? And he's like, well, you weren't going 02:22:12.520 --> 02:22:14.940 to take care of it. There wasn't anybody else 02:22:14.940 --> 02:22:17.860 that was going to come take care of it. So it 02:22:17.860 --> 02:22:20.440 would have just like had this miserable sickness 02:22:20.440 --> 02:22:23.239 and died within a week. And so what I'm doing 02:22:23.239 --> 02:22:26.520 is more of a kindness. It's angelic. Yeah. So 02:22:26.520 --> 02:22:31.420 Shinji like basically doesn't like Kwaru in the 02:22:31.420 --> 02:22:34.979 manga. He's very uncomfortable with him. He doesn't 02:22:34.979 --> 02:22:36.979 like that Kwaru has no like personal boundaries 02:22:36.979 --> 02:22:39.489 and stuff like that. And there is a scene where 02:22:39.489 --> 02:22:41.629 Kwaru comes into the shower while Shinji's in 02:22:41.629 --> 02:22:42.909 there. And it makes Shinji really uncomfortable. 02:22:43.610 --> 02:22:46.549 And he gets really close to Shinji. And he even, 02:22:46.569 --> 02:22:48.670 like, does make a pass at him. Tries to make 02:22:48.670 --> 02:22:50.930 out with him or something like that. And Shinji's 02:22:50.930 --> 02:22:53.329 like, boys, don't do that. And, like, get away 02:22:53.329 --> 02:22:55.930 from me and whatever. And he straight up says, 02:22:56.069 --> 02:22:58.729 like, I don't like you. Kwaru's just like, why, 02:22:58.850 --> 02:23:01.209 man? I don't get it. And then, you know, Kwaru 02:23:01.209 --> 02:23:03.270 and Rei have a little weird thing. Because, like, 02:23:03.270 --> 02:23:05.069 they're essentially the same, but they're different. 02:23:06.010 --> 02:23:09.600 Because Kwaru... He's apparently like he was 02:23:09.600 --> 02:23:14.180 the last angel that was born. And he like was 02:23:14.180 --> 02:23:16.920 born during the second impact. He was like the 02:23:16.920 --> 02:23:20.360 final product of Adam in his final moments or 02:23:20.360 --> 02:23:22.219 something like that. And then Sele immediately 02:23:22.219 --> 02:23:27.879 took control of Kwaru. And so Kwaru has always 02:23:27.879 --> 02:23:32.059 been like their ray, their kind of like secret 02:23:32.059 --> 02:23:35.680 back pocket tool for instrumentality or whatever. 02:23:36.709 --> 02:23:40.209 And he's also the basis of the dummy plug system 02:23:40.209 --> 02:23:43.409 for the Eva series with the S2 engines. Okay. 02:23:43.629 --> 02:23:46.170 Because you can see Kwaru's name written on their 02:23:46.170 --> 02:23:48.909 dummy plugs that go in. That makes sense. It's 02:23:48.909 --> 02:23:51.809 also why they're Kwaru colored. Yeah, exactly. 02:23:52.450 --> 02:23:55.129 So yeah, Kwaru shows up a lot earlier in the 02:23:55.129 --> 02:23:58.350 manga, and he's actually involved that battle 02:23:58.350 --> 02:23:59.989 that we mentioned earlier that happens in the 02:23:59.989 --> 02:24:03.229 Geo front where Rei sacrifices herself. Kwaru 02:24:03.229 --> 02:24:06.110 is involved in that battle and has his own Eva. 02:24:06.229 --> 02:24:08.610 He's a fellow pilot. In the manga. He's a fellow 02:24:08.610 --> 02:24:12.129 pilot. He also gets, like, penetrated by, like, 02:24:12.149 --> 02:24:15.770 the beam of light. So him and Rey get, like, 02:24:15.790 --> 02:24:19.069 their souls connected during the battle, and 02:24:19.069 --> 02:24:22.770 he feels all of Rey's feelings. And that, like, 02:24:22.770 --> 02:24:23.870 does something. That basically is what happens 02:24:23.870 --> 02:24:25.569 at the end of the movie, too, kind of, right? 02:24:25.750 --> 02:24:29.159 Yeah. Because the Eva series and... ray come 02:24:29.159 --> 02:24:32.520 together and then it's the big ray looking at 02:24:32.520 --> 02:24:35.760 shinji in the ava and then it's like oh wait 02:24:35.760 --> 02:24:37.319 no would this be better and she turns into quaru 02:24:37.319 --> 02:24:40.659 and shinji's like oh quaru and then he penetrates 02:24:40.659 --> 02:24:43.020 him no that's true that does happen in the end 02:24:43.020 --> 02:24:47.079 they are they are one at that point and yeah 02:24:47.079 --> 02:24:51.600 like the giant ray terrifies shinji and the quaru 02:24:51.600 --> 02:24:54.760 he finds super comforting and whatever yeah and 02:24:54.760 --> 02:24:57.899 then penetrates him Yeah, because Shinji's never 02:24:57.899 --> 02:25:00.799 had... In the manga, his relationship with Rei 02:25:00.799 --> 02:25:04.000 is closer, but in the show, it's still very distant 02:25:04.000 --> 02:25:07.500 and alien, and Rei's weird with him. The only 02:25:07.500 --> 02:25:09.719 thing that happens is he saves her from the hatch, 02:25:09.719 --> 02:25:12.559 just like his father, and tells her to smile. 02:25:13.180 --> 02:25:18.879 Right. Which girls fucking love. Yeah, tell them 02:25:18.879 --> 02:25:21.559 to smile. I don't know what to do in a situation 02:25:21.559 --> 02:25:23.459 like this. Well, maybe you should fucking smile. 02:25:25.329 --> 02:25:28.350 But yeah, so Kaworu is like around longer in 02:25:28.350 --> 02:25:31.250 the manga, develops a little bit more of a relationship 02:25:31.250 --> 02:25:33.430 with the other characters, you know, becomes 02:25:33.430 --> 02:25:35.229 like, you know, Misato's trying to figure out 02:25:35.229 --> 02:25:37.569 who the hell he is. But in the end, he's less 02:25:37.569 --> 02:25:40.190 gay. Well, it sounds like he's more gay. I mean, 02:25:40.209 --> 02:25:42.129 he actually tries to make a pass at Shinji in 02:25:42.129 --> 02:25:44.129 the manga. Yeah, he's more gay. Okay. Shinji's 02:25:44.129 --> 02:25:46.930 coded less gay. But Shinji's like, no fucking 02:25:46.930 --> 02:25:48.950 way, dude. Get away from me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 02:25:49.069 --> 02:25:53.860 And so... When the same thing happens where Kwaru 02:25:53.860 --> 02:25:57.319 takes control of Unit 2 and starts to go to Central 02:25:57.319 --> 02:26:01.760 Dogma to connect with Lilith. It's the same kind 02:26:01.760 --> 02:26:05.360 of ending where Kwaru decides that he wants Shinji 02:26:05.360 --> 02:26:09.860 to kill him instead of ending humanity. And so 02:26:09.860 --> 02:26:11.659 that scene just ends up playing out a little 02:26:11.659 --> 02:26:14.540 bit more, slightly more complicated because Shinji 02:26:14.540 --> 02:26:17.000 didn't really like him to begin with. He was 02:26:17.000 --> 02:26:19.549 just kind of creeped out by him. It's such an 02:26:19.549 --> 02:26:23.110 interesting way to revisit the series and just 02:26:23.110 --> 02:26:25.350 be like, but the one thing I'm going to do is... 02:26:25.350 --> 02:26:28.129 Fuck that gay shit. I'm keeping everything exactly 02:26:28.129 --> 02:26:30.750 the same, but Shinji was way too gay. We're going 02:26:30.750 --> 02:26:32.190 to make it very clear that Shinji's not gay. 02:26:33.909 --> 02:26:37.450 Shinji is my vector. I mean, that's also like 02:26:37.450 --> 02:26:39.270 I was saying in the movie, when it changes from 02:26:39.270 --> 02:26:42.450 Rei to Kwaru and then he penetrates in his chest, 02:26:42.510 --> 02:26:44.870 in his S2 engine. That also seems to be kind 02:26:44.870 --> 02:26:46.969 of like a fuck you defense. You know what I mean? 02:26:47.129 --> 02:26:49.870 It seems like if you were homophobic, that would 02:26:49.870 --> 02:26:52.790 be the homophobic way to be like, you know, I 02:26:52.790 --> 02:26:55.909 don't know. No? It's just like Shinji jerking 02:26:55.909 --> 02:26:57.750 off into his hand and being like, I'm so fucked 02:26:57.750 --> 02:26:59.950 up. It's like Shinji being presented with a woman 02:26:59.950 --> 02:27:01.649 and then being like, no, the man can penetrate 02:27:01.649 --> 02:27:06.579 me. It's like, uh, it's a little guy. I don't 02:27:06.579 --> 02:27:08.620 know that it's a sweet moment. In the manga, 02:27:09.020 --> 02:27:14.459 the AT field means anti -trans. And there's that 02:27:14.459 --> 02:27:19.500 clear in the manga. What does it actually mean? 02:27:19.540 --> 02:27:21.500 Is it absolute terror field? That's what they 02:27:21.500 --> 02:27:24.579 say in the American translation, at least. I 02:27:24.579 --> 02:27:27.319 assume that's what it is in Japanese, but it's 02:27:27.319 --> 02:27:31.920 a dumb word. There's a lot of it. Some of the 02:27:31.920 --> 02:27:33.840 translation stuff is stuff that is in English. 02:27:34.860 --> 02:27:38.000 It's like the same with like just the idea of 02:27:38.000 --> 02:27:40.959 angels in general. Like I think that we're kind 02:27:40.959 --> 02:27:43.899 of, I've been watching Evangelion for so long, 02:27:43.940 --> 02:27:46.620 I'm kind of used to it, but I feel like as a 02:27:46.620 --> 02:27:48.719 Western audience, we should see people killing 02:27:48.719 --> 02:27:50.440 angels and be like, oh, they're the bad guys. 02:27:50.540 --> 02:27:51.879 You know what I mean? That should just be like 02:27:51.879 --> 02:27:54.350 a very clear thing from the start. And I think 02:27:54.350 --> 02:27:55.889 that a Japanese audience might just be like, 02:27:55.989 --> 02:27:58.110 well, angels isn't really a thing that we, like 02:27:58.110 --> 02:28:00.870 angels is a Western idea of a religious thing 02:28:00.870 --> 02:28:02.329 and blah, blah, blah. So it's like another word 02:28:02.329 --> 02:28:04.049 for aliens or something or whatever. And then 02:28:04.049 --> 02:28:05.489 it turns out, no, no, we're actually saying they're 02:28:05.489 --> 02:28:07.530 the bad guys. Yeah, I don't know. I think when 02:28:07.530 --> 02:28:09.469 you translate that, it becomes kind of more obvious 02:28:09.469 --> 02:28:12.989 because they're using our archetypes that we're 02:28:12.989 --> 02:28:15.569 more familiar with. The humans are the bad guys. 02:28:17.170 --> 02:28:19.209 Shinji in the show is supposed to be the first 02:28:19.209 --> 02:28:21.280 children. You know what I mean? Yeah, the first 02:28:21.280 --> 02:28:23.440 children. Yeah, it's the first children, the 02:28:23.440 --> 02:28:25.840 second children, the third children. So there's 02:28:25.840 --> 02:28:28.379 some plurality to it that doesn't really make 02:28:28.379 --> 02:28:31.920 sense unless they're talking about the Christ 02:28:31.920 --> 02:28:34.079 figure, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the Mother, 02:28:34.159 --> 02:28:38.299 Son, Ava, Unit. They are the children together. 02:28:38.399 --> 02:28:41.799 They become the children. I mean, the humans 02:28:41.799 --> 02:28:46.229 are the bad guys because if Adam... And the angels 02:28:46.229 --> 02:28:49.170 were the rightful heirs to planet Earth and whatever. 02:28:49.370 --> 02:28:54.010 Lilith is like this invading body that came down 02:28:54.010 --> 02:28:58.329 and produced only one offspring, humanity, that 02:28:58.329 --> 02:29:02.030 destroys every single angel. But that's a tree 02:29:02.030 --> 02:29:04.530 of life, tree of knowledge. You know what I mean? 02:29:04.590 --> 02:29:04.870 It's a tree of life, tree of knowledge. The angels 02:29:04.870 --> 02:29:07.649 have always been jealous of the human because 02:29:07.649 --> 02:29:11.159 they got the tree of knowledge. yada yada it 02:29:11.159 --> 02:29:13.340 is christian symbolism like i i kind of hate 02:29:13.340 --> 02:29:15.440 when people talk about this and be like well 02:29:15.440 --> 02:29:17.200 honor doesn't know christianity they don't have 02:29:17.200 --> 02:29:21.379 christianity in japan that's he's just they fucking 02:29:21.379 --> 02:29:24.219 they got christianity in japan and he is using 02:29:24.219 --> 02:29:26.760 christian symbolism in a cool way like he is 02:29:26.760 --> 02:29:28.719 looking at dead sea scroll so i think that a 02:29:28.719 --> 02:29:30.819 lot of it is like A lot of the other things in 02:29:30.819 --> 02:29:32.399 the movie, like in the show or the movie. It's 02:29:32.399 --> 02:29:35.040 a lot of apocrypha. Why is the mom also Rey, 02:29:35.200 --> 02:29:39.600 also the Ava, also the S2, also the thing? Many 02:29:39.600 --> 02:29:41.079 of these things are just like, well, they don't 02:29:41.079 --> 02:29:42.639 really make sense in the end. But I don't think 02:29:42.639 --> 02:29:45.920 that he's just using random Western symbols. 02:29:46.040 --> 02:29:48.500 I don't think he's using the Tree of Life for 02:29:48.500 --> 02:29:50.520 no reason. I think it's just like, but when you 02:29:50.520 --> 02:29:52.479 get into the specifics of where Gendo's sitting 02:29:52.479 --> 02:29:53.879 and what that actually means, maybe there's something 02:29:53.879 --> 02:29:57.420 there. But I don't think he's... This is not 02:29:57.420 --> 02:30:01.000 Jodorowsky. Like dealing with like ancient alchemist 02:30:01.000 --> 02:30:04.100 symbols. Like this is an anime guy, for instance. 02:30:04.100 --> 02:30:05.479 I mean, I think it's interesting that the fruit 02:30:05.479 --> 02:30:08.420 of the tree of life, the angels, are these incredibly 02:30:08.420 --> 02:30:14.760 unique, powerful, magical beings. And the only 02:30:14.760 --> 02:30:16.479 way... I'm talking about the tree of life from 02:30:16.479 --> 02:30:18.940 the Kabbalah, like the symbol that Anno is standing 02:30:18.940 --> 02:30:21.600 on in his office. Sure, sure. Both trees of life, 02:30:21.659 --> 02:30:24.299 but yeah. That Gendo is standing on, yeah. Oh 02:30:24.299 --> 02:30:27.940 yeah, Gendo, yeah, same thing. But the only way 02:30:27.940 --> 02:30:31.579 the humans compete with those angels is by essentially 02:30:31.579 --> 02:30:35.899 using the skills they have from the tree of knowledge 02:30:35.899 --> 02:30:40.479 to co -opt an angel and use it as their plaything. 02:30:40.780 --> 02:30:45.000 Because the Avas are from Adam. They're related 02:30:45.000 --> 02:30:48.219 to the angels, not humans. But they are biological 02:30:48.219 --> 02:30:51.850 angels. that we've like used technology to control 02:30:51.850 --> 02:30:56.290 and then imbued with a human soul. Like it's 02:30:56.290 --> 02:30:58.809 like so repulsive in a weird way. I mean, it's 02:30:58.809 --> 02:31:01.450 playing God in a way that is viscerally gross. 02:31:01.870 --> 02:31:04.770 Yeah. Yeah. And then, and yeah, like that's what 02:31:04.770 --> 02:31:06.409 makes, especially, I mean, the first time you 02:31:06.409 --> 02:31:09.010 see it, it's super fucking weird, but it's always 02:31:09.010 --> 02:31:11.389 been disturbing. Just like the reveals in the 02:31:11.389 --> 02:31:15.500 show where like the hand armor burns off and 02:31:15.500 --> 02:31:18.479 you see, like, just human hands underneath the 02:31:18.479 --> 02:31:23.959 armor. Or, like, when he kills Toji and rips 02:31:23.959 --> 02:31:26.520 him apart and how just violently gory that is 02:31:26.520 --> 02:31:28.420 and how, like, organs are being ripped out and 02:31:28.420 --> 02:31:29.700 stuff like that. I mean, this is also, like, 02:31:29.780 --> 02:31:31.420 this is one of the things that Eva was doing 02:31:31.420 --> 02:31:34.200 that was new. Like, Ana was interviewed early 02:31:34.200 --> 02:31:36.879 on about, like, why he would make a mecha show 02:31:36.879 --> 02:31:38.200 or whatever, and he was like, oh, it was interesting 02:31:38.200 --> 02:31:40.840 to me to make a mecha show that nobody would 02:31:40.840 --> 02:31:43.809 want to make toys of. Because at the time, like, 02:31:43.889 --> 02:31:47.569 the Eva was so not the idea of a mecha. There 02:31:47.569 --> 02:31:50.909 are no boxy, like, parts that look like a tank 02:31:50.909 --> 02:31:52.889 or whatever. It actually just is kind of a humanoid 02:31:52.889 --> 02:31:54.969 thing that's much closer to, like, an Ultraman 02:31:54.969 --> 02:31:57.049 or something, which is, like, Honor's favorite 02:31:57.049 --> 02:31:58.989 show. It's also more feminine. It's also more 02:31:58.989 --> 02:32:02.049 feminine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sleek and curvy 02:32:02.049 --> 02:32:04.729 and whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of these 02:32:04.729 --> 02:32:07.590 are, like, again, it's just, it is a symbol that 02:32:07.590 --> 02:32:10.719 he's... doing kind of the opposite of and turning 02:32:10.719 --> 02:32:12.920 on its head and like we don't even see that now 02:32:12.920 --> 02:32:15.500 because like in america like i watched evangelion 02:32:15.500 --> 02:32:17.840 long before i ever saw a gundam or anything like 02:32:17.840 --> 02:32:21.659 but It is a subversion of the archetype to have 02:32:21.659 --> 02:32:23.639 an Ava that even looks like that, and then to 02:32:23.639 --> 02:32:25.940 have it actually be organic on the inside and 02:32:25.940 --> 02:32:28.120 whatever, and have it, like, the technology itself 02:32:28.120 --> 02:32:30.819 is not the thing. It's actually magic, even though 02:32:30.819 --> 02:32:32.879 it's a, like, there's a whole divide between 02:32:32.879 --> 02:32:36.159 the real robot and magical robot shows and stuff, 02:32:36.340 --> 02:32:39.520 and a show is one or the other, and Ava starts 02:32:39.520 --> 02:32:41.520 pretending that it's one and becomes another, 02:32:41.680 --> 02:32:43.500 but then it's actually a science fiction version 02:32:43.500 --> 02:32:45.079 of that because it's not really magical. It's 02:32:45.079 --> 02:32:47.379 actually just your mother being mutilated for, 02:32:47.399 --> 02:32:51.200 like, this. You know what I mean? Well, it is 02:32:51.200 --> 02:32:54.719 sci -fi. It's a creature that was created in 02:32:54.719 --> 02:32:59.420 a laboratory, essentially, using the embryo of 02:32:59.420 --> 02:33:04.299 a god, essentially, and then fitted with a bunch 02:33:04.299 --> 02:33:07.799 of restraints and then imbued with a human personality. 02:33:08.200 --> 02:33:10.799 I also love when the fucking Avas are attacking 02:33:10.799 --> 02:33:13.770 them. Like, every time they freak out and, like, 02:33:13.770 --> 02:33:16.790 start attacking Gendo, it just feels like, dude, 02:33:17.010 --> 02:33:19.010 Wifey's mad, bro. And he's just standing there 02:33:19.010 --> 02:33:24.750 like, fuck. Damn it. Turn her off, I guess. It's 02:33:24.750 --> 02:33:26.450 like what happens right before the show starts 02:33:26.450 --> 02:33:30.750 is, like, Ray gets hurt because Unit Zero has, 02:33:30.850 --> 02:33:33.270 like, a freakout. Right. And starts, like, punching 02:33:33.270 --> 02:33:36.530 the windows and then starts bashing its face 02:33:36.530 --> 02:33:37.790 into the wall. But maybe it's trying to attack 02:33:37.790 --> 02:33:42.950 Ritsuko. because she's fucking Gendo, and wifey's 02:33:42.950 --> 02:33:46.850 jealous. There's so many, yeah. But it is, like, 02:33:46.909 --> 02:33:49.569 I do love when the Evas just, like, are suddenly 02:33:49.569 --> 02:33:52.670 like, oh, no, that's just a woman, like, who's 02:33:52.670 --> 02:33:54.770 fucking pissed, and they're going to shut her 02:33:54.770 --> 02:33:56.750 down real quick. Yeah, it's like a really, really, 02:33:56.750 --> 02:34:00.170 it shows, like, this animalistic nature. Yeah, 02:34:00.170 --> 02:34:02.819 yeah. Like, motherhood and... Well, being able 02:34:02.819 --> 02:34:05.059 to lift a car off of your son is kind of part 02:34:05.059 --> 02:34:08.139 of the main idea. And the Magi really reflects 02:34:08.139 --> 02:34:11.040 that, too, where each part of the Magi is a different 02:34:11.040 --> 02:34:16.239 part of her mother's psyche or her three identities, 02:34:16.340 --> 02:34:19.819 her as a woman, her as a mother, her as a scientist. 02:34:20.379 --> 02:34:23.799 Do you guys remember which one Casper is that 02:34:23.799 --> 02:34:27.760 denies her? Yeah. That chooses her as a woman? 02:34:27.860 --> 02:34:31.780 Yeah. Yeah, she goes for Gendo, bro. She chose 02:34:31.780 --> 02:34:35.420 Gendo over her daughter. It's so devastating. 02:34:35.700 --> 02:34:37.399 She's standing there with her thing and she clicked 02:34:37.399 --> 02:34:39.780 the button and she's just like, are you fucking 02:34:39.780 --> 02:34:44.559 serious? Because I fucked him. And then Gendo 02:34:44.559 --> 02:34:48.479 gives her nothing and kills her. It's so vicious, 02:34:48.860 --> 02:34:53.659 dude. Everybody has the worst endings. Does it 02:34:53.659 --> 02:34:56.739 feel good? Yeah. Is that what you wanted? Is 02:34:56.739 --> 02:34:59.840 this what you wanted to see? Yeah. Misato gets 02:34:59.840 --> 02:35:02.620 killed by a stray bullet, pretty anticlimactic. 02:35:02.940 --> 02:35:05.200 Well, I mean, she also gets totally taken out 02:35:05.200 --> 02:35:09.280 by the M2 mines. I was going to say, the fucking 02:35:09.280 --> 02:35:11.979 earth explodes underneath her. Yeah, they're 02:35:11.979 --> 02:35:13.959 destroying parts of her. That's true. That's 02:35:13.959 --> 02:35:17.260 actually different in the manga, too. Sadamoto 02:35:17.260 --> 02:35:19.819 has her kill herself with a grenade when the 02:35:19.819 --> 02:35:24.159 guys come in. Okay. Kind of cliche. No kamikaze 02:35:24.159 --> 02:35:28.819 going on. well we're over three hours josh how 02:35:28.819 --> 02:35:30.719 do you feel about this this whole conversation 02:35:30.719 --> 02:35:34.180 i feel like in a lot of ways we've been like 02:35:34.180 --> 02:35:36.299 well i think part of the thing is here like we've 02:35:36.299 --> 02:35:38.299 just been a lot of people come to evangelion 02:35:38.299 --> 02:35:40.680 when they're like the age of the characters you 02:35:40.680 --> 02:35:42.639 know i mean like i came to evangelion as a 14 02:35:42.639 --> 02:35:46.299 year old who was super depressed and like was 02:35:46.299 --> 02:35:49.559 having trouble like going to school and like 02:35:49.559 --> 02:35:51.260 you know what i mean just like being a person 02:35:51.260 --> 02:35:53.719 piloting behavior whatever um and found a lot 02:35:53.719 --> 02:35:57.340 to relate to in the show like it is talking to 02:35:57.340 --> 02:36:00.260 a 14 year old and it's trying to kind of help 02:36:00.260 --> 02:36:03.360 a 14 year old through the process of like understanding 02:36:03.360 --> 02:36:06.100 that like you know the world is like a lot shittier 02:36:06.100 --> 02:36:08.520 of a play and if you're smart like you're starting 02:36:08.520 --> 02:36:11.120 to realize like all the people that have been 02:36:11.120 --> 02:36:13.360 guiding you like they don't really they're just 02:36:13.360 --> 02:36:15.319 miserable people of their own. Like, you know 02:36:15.319 --> 02:36:17.059 what I mean? Like everybody has their own shit. 02:36:17.100 --> 02:36:19.200 You're kind of, I don't know. It's just, it's 02:36:19.200 --> 02:36:20.739 just coming to terms with reality stuff that 02:36:20.739 --> 02:36:23.360 I think is a big thing when you're that age. 02:36:23.799 --> 02:36:25.840 But I like watching it again, I kind of just 02:36:25.840 --> 02:36:28.120 feel like a lot of that is so universal that 02:36:28.120 --> 02:36:30.159 it's just kind of like, so I think kind of like 02:36:30.159 --> 02:36:32.000 the question is like, why, why do you think the 02:36:32.000 --> 02:36:35.540 show is such a incredibly popular and like, it's 02:36:35.540 --> 02:36:37.819 like the number one anime in the West. It's number 02:36:37.819 --> 02:36:41.600 one in Japan. Um, many, many times over what 02:36:41.600 --> 02:36:43.899 a cat, like, what accounts for the popularity 02:36:43.899 --> 02:36:47.100 of this other than two 14 year old boys? Well, 02:36:47.159 --> 02:36:49.959 I think, I think like what I got from it, especially 02:36:49.959 --> 02:36:52.139 as like an outsider. And I mean, I was, I don't 02:36:52.139 --> 02:36:54.500 want to say I was handed it as homework effectively, 02:36:54.659 --> 02:36:56.579 but it was like, Hey, you haven't seen this thing. 02:36:56.600 --> 02:36:59.219 Check this thing out. And I mean, I remember 02:36:59.219 --> 02:37:01.639 when it came out on Netflix, I had like a coworker 02:37:01.639 --> 02:37:03.620 who was just like, have you seen this thing? 02:37:03.899 --> 02:37:06.709 And you know, my age, I'm in my. you know late 02:37:06.709 --> 02:37:09.350 30s now it's like have you seen this thing and 02:37:09.350 --> 02:37:10.729 i was like no i don't know what this thing is 02:37:10.729 --> 02:37:13.090 and he was like dude you have to see it and then 02:37:13.090 --> 02:37:15.190 i had a handful of people saying the same thing 02:37:15.190 --> 02:37:20.229 and i so my entree into it was like okay this 02:37:20.229 --> 02:37:22.129 is a thing that looks like it's for children 02:37:22.129 --> 02:37:24.969 but it's for adults and it's after having watched 02:37:24.969 --> 02:37:28.129 it twice now it's it's not it's i mean it is 02:37:28.129 --> 02:37:31.969 for adults like i do as a father of five fucking 02:37:31.969 --> 02:37:35.590 children like i do relate to Gendo like I do 02:37:35.590 --> 02:37:39.569 I relate to the control he wants to have over 02:37:39.569 --> 02:37:42.510 the people in his life like there's a very much 02:37:42.510 --> 02:37:45.069 like hate me now love me later type of approach 02:37:45.069 --> 02:37:47.549 to parenting that he has where it's like you 02:37:47.549 --> 02:37:51.110 won't you don't appreciate the severity of my 02:37:51.110 --> 02:37:54.649 approach but in you know when you are me you 02:37:54.649 --> 02:37:56.729 will be fortified to be the thing you need to 02:37:56.729 --> 02:37:59.629 be to deal with the world but I think like as 02:37:59.629 --> 02:38:03.389 someone who frequently tries and fails at parenting 02:38:03.389 --> 02:38:08.750 that way. That's where the kid's mentality kicks 02:38:08.750 --> 02:38:11.170 in. It's where seeing the petulance of someone 02:38:11.170 --> 02:38:14.209 like Shinji, it comes off as incredibly authentic. 02:38:14.870 --> 02:38:19.590 That myopia, that constant anxiety, that is how 02:38:19.590 --> 02:38:23.250 kids feel. That is how it is. That's how it feels 02:38:23.250 --> 02:38:26.030 to be a kid and deal with a parent who is domineering. 02:38:26.309 --> 02:38:29.709 What you want... at any given time is the thing 02:38:29.709 --> 02:38:32.809 that you are not getting. And like from Gendo's 02:38:32.809 --> 02:38:35.290 approach where it's like, no, I have to create 02:38:35.290 --> 02:38:38.909 a system under which you can always thrive. And 02:38:38.909 --> 02:38:42.170 what the show inevitably proves is like, no, 02:38:42.270 --> 02:38:44.950 that's the only way that's proven to destroy 02:38:44.950 --> 02:38:47.829 a child. So I guess when you ask like, who is 02:38:47.829 --> 02:38:51.190 it for? It's for everybody. Like I, I absolutely 02:38:51.190 --> 02:38:54.469 100 % want to show it to the 15 and 14 year old 02:38:54.469 --> 02:38:57.979 in my house and be like, you guys, I get it. 02:38:58.000 --> 02:39:00.920 I was this kid and you are now this kid. And 02:39:00.920 --> 02:39:04.280 I'm sorry, sometimes I'm this guy. But from the 02:39:04.280 --> 02:39:07.639 perspective of like... someone coming to it so 02:39:07.639 --> 02:39:10.600 late the thing I struggled with was that I had 02:39:10.600 --> 02:39:12.299 such a hard time getting into that emotional 02:39:12.299 --> 02:39:14.780 headspace getting into Shinji's emotional headspace 02:39:14.780 --> 02:39:16.620 even though I feel many of the things he feels 02:39:16.620 --> 02:39:20.020 to this day as an adult the petulance rings out 02:39:20.020 --> 02:39:22.940 over everything like I really I feel like Asuka 02:39:22.940 --> 02:39:25.459 where it's like you fucking idiot get your shit 02:39:25.459 --> 02:39:29.260 together yes get over this little thing ignore 02:39:29.260 --> 02:39:32.180 the voice inside of your head that says that 02:39:32.180 --> 02:39:34.979 you're not good enough and yeah that's so interesting 02:39:34.979 --> 02:39:38.100 man To bridge the gap between that and Otaku 02:39:38.100 --> 02:39:40.899 No Video, it's like, yeah, I relate to the adult 02:39:40.899 --> 02:39:44.139 who looks at this type of content and goes, like, 02:39:44.159 --> 02:39:46.959 who is this for? This is for people who don't 02:39:46.959 --> 02:39:49.559 want to get better. I feel like Asuka, you know? 02:39:49.620 --> 02:39:51.659 But, okay, if you want to live in this world 02:39:51.659 --> 02:39:53.340 where you're surrounded by your fucking hardware, 02:39:53.680 --> 02:39:56.260 go nuts. But that's an empty way to live a life. 02:39:56.680 --> 02:39:58.639 And, I mean, like, that's very much from the 02:39:58.639 --> 02:40:01.120 point of view as, like, someone who was never 02:40:01.120 --> 02:40:02.979 in it, you know? That's so interesting, man, 02:40:03.000 --> 02:40:05.649 because, like, I mean, I only have one kid. And 02:40:05.649 --> 02:40:08.469 he's not even two yet. So maybe I'll relate more 02:40:08.469 --> 02:40:13.809 to Gendo in later years or something. But what's 02:40:13.809 --> 02:40:16.709 so funny to me is that when I first saw Evangelion, 02:40:16.750 --> 02:40:18.770 when I was like, I don't know, I can't really 02:40:18.770 --> 02:40:21.250 remember. I might have been like 16 or 17. Because, 02:40:21.370 --> 02:40:24.229 Mike, you showed it to me initially. So whenever 02:40:24.229 --> 02:40:26.510 we first watched it together. When we were working 02:40:26.510 --> 02:40:28.530 at the theater. When we were working at the theater 02:40:28.530 --> 02:40:32.030 or whatever. So 16, something like that. At that 02:40:32.030 --> 02:40:35.129 time, I found Shinji to be a very annoying character. 02:40:35.590 --> 02:40:38.149 Interesting. I really disliked his petulance. 02:40:38.510 --> 02:40:41.670 I felt the same way about Shinji as I did, like, 02:40:41.690 --> 02:40:44.889 holding Caulfield. Like, I didn't like holding 02:40:44.889 --> 02:40:47.049 Caulfield. I thought he was annoying and he was 02:40:47.049 --> 02:40:49.969 just, like, bitching. Okay. And it's just super 02:40:49.969 --> 02:40:52.649 bizarre that, like, I didn't find these characters 02:40:52.649 --> 02:40:58.399 relatable when I was younger. But, like... As 02:40:58.399 --> 02:41:01.139 I got older, I reread Catcher in the Rye in my 02:41:01.139 --> 02:41:04.479 early 30s or something, and I loved it. I just 02:41:04.479 --> 02:41:07.620 thought Holden Caulfield made so much sense and 02:41:07.620 --> 02:41:10.840 stuff like that. And then I watch Evangelion, 02:41:10.840 --> 02:41:13.000 and Shinji doesn't annoy me anymore. I don't 02:41:13.000 --> 02:41:17.360 know why. I just find him to be deeply empathetic. 02:41:17.360 --> 02:41:19.100 We talked about this a little bit during our 02:41:19.100 --> 02:41:22.739 Kevin Smith episode, but in Chasing Amy, basically, 02:41:22.860 --> 02:41:27.860 like Holden. Holden and Chasing Amy and his relationship 02:41:27.860 --> 02:41:33.760 to Alyssa Jones he is so cringy and embarrassing 02:41:33.760 --> 02:41:36.370 that like when I watched that When I watched 02:41:36.370 --> 02:41:40.049 that as a middle schooler, I was on his side 02:41:40.049 --> 02:41:41.670 or whatever. When I watched that as a high schooler 02:41:41.670 --> 02:41:43.489 or college kid or whatever, I was like, this 02:41:43.489 --> 02:41:45.850 guy fucking sucks. I hate this guy. This movie 02:41:45.850 --> 02:41:48.729 doesn't... This sucks. This did not age well. 02:41:49.030 --> 02:41:51.770 But watching it as an adult, it's like, oh man, 02:41:51.870 --> 02:41:53.809 this is such a perfect encapsulation of that 02:41:53.809 --> 02:41:59.790 anxiety. It is an immaturness, but that is a 02:41:59.790 --> 02:42:02.469 depiction of an immaturness that is so powerful. 02:42:02.770 --> 02:42:04.870 And I think that's probably similar to Shinji, 02:42:04.909 --> 02:42:06.639 where it's like, like, dude, you can relate to 02:42:06.639 --> 02:42:10.180 Shinji because you were Shinji. You have to be 02:42:10.180 --> 02:42:12.680 like, okay, okay, now that I know that I was 02:42:12.680 --> 02:42:15.559 Shinji, I can have some empathy for Shinji. But 02:42:15.559 --> 02:42:17.200 at the time, you hated yourself and you hated 02:42:17.200 --> 02:42:21.799 Shinji. Yeah, exactly. I was like any other otaku 02:42:21.799 --> 02:42:24.219 who gets annoyed at having the mirror put up 02:42:24.219 --> 02:42:27.860 to them. And yeah, I mean, at that time, when 02:42:27.860 --> 02:42:30.860 I was younger, I was... interested in a lot of 02:42:30.860 --> 02:42:33.000 things but you could describe me as so much more 02:42:33.000 --> 02:42:36.040 of an otaku at that time because my interests 02:42:36.040 --> 02:42:40.940 were driven by very kind of like weird perversions 02:42:40.940 --> 02:42:45.399 or whatever just like weird specific things you 02:42:45.399 --> 02:42:48.600 get into for dance dance revolution yeah like 02:42:48.600 --> 02:42:51.280 dance dance revolution exactly and all those 02:42:51.280 --> 02:42:54.420 goth kids or or even like you know my whole introduction 02:42:54.420 --> 02:42:58.000 into anime is that like i was always into animation 02:42:58.000 --> 02:43:01.090 as a kid And like I said in the previous episode, 02:43:01.190 --> 02:43:04.370 I spent a lot of time learning how to animate 02:43:04.370 --> 02:43:08.370 and going to classes for that kind of thing and 02:43:08.370 --> 02:43:11.450 stuff. I loved animation as a kid and was a big 02:43:11.450 --> 02:43:15.329 fan of Disney movies and Don Bluth movies and 02:43:15.329 --> 02:43:18.030 all kinds of American animation. But I never 02:43:18.030 --> 02:43:22.649 really got into anime until I met Mike. And even 02:43:22.649 --> 02:43:25.770 then, I've never really become super into anime. 02:43:25.950 --> 02:43:27.790 It's just like there are so many good ones and 02:43:27.790 --> 02:43:30.399 so many... So many that are worth watching as 02:43:30.399 --> 02:43:33.639 someone who's into animation and cinema. And 02:43:33.639 --> 02:43:37.040 I think, like, I remember being a kid and, like, 02:43:37.040 --> 02:43:39.299 probably my earliest introduction to anime was, 02:43:39.399 --> 02:43:42.319 like, Miyazaki. Like, a lot of Westerners. I'd 02:43:42.319 --> 02:43:45.620 seen My Neighbor Totoro as a, you know, child 02:43:45.620 --> 02:43:49.059 or whatever. I think I saw Spirited Away in theaters 02:43:49.059 --> 02:43:52.459 because my stepdad brought me. I had no kind 02:43:52.459 --> 02:43:56.549 of, like, interest. I got taken to this little 02:43:56.549 --> 02:44:00.690 anime showcase at a film festival in 2003 or 02:44:00.690 --> 02:44:03.530 2004 or something like that. And I'm pretty sure 02:44:03.530 --> 02:44:06.610 every single anime they showed was Gainax. Okay. 02:44:06.790 --> 02:44:09.430 I think they showed five animes, and I can't 02:44:09.430 --> 02:44:12.010 remember what all of them were. But I know they 02:44:12.010 --> 02:44:15.030 played the first episode of Evangelion, the first 02:44:15.030 --> 02:44:18.889 episode of His and Her Circumstances, the first 02:44:18.889 --> 02:44:24.020 episode of Mahoramatic, Automatic Maiden. And 02:44:24.020 --> 02:44:25.739 then I think the fourth one was the first episode 02:44:25.739 --> 02:44:29.780 of FLCL. Can't remember the fifth, but mostly 02:44:29.780 --> 02:44:34.459 Gainax. Yeah, just the idea that Gainax, they're 02:44:34.459 --> 02:44:37.479 the ones. They're the ones who created the body 02:44:37.479 --> 02:44:40.440 of work in a relatively short period of time 02:44:40.440 --> 02:44:43.719 at the right time that made anime mainstream 02:44:43.719 --> 02:44:48.719 and created a handful of seminal works that are 02:44:48.719 --> 02:44:50.379 considered some of the greatest animes to this 02:44:50.379 --> 02:44:56.629 day. mahora matic is not one of those but like 02:44:56.629 --> 02:44:59.489 when i was a you know perverted horny 14 year 02:44:59.489 --> 02:45:01.309 old or whatever it was when i saw these animes 02:45:01.309 --> 02:45:03.930 the one that stood out to me most was more there's 02:45:03.930 --> 02:45:07.649 a sexy maid doll yeah because it was uh appealing 02:45:07.649 --> 02:45:10.409 to my perversions yeah i mean i don't know the 02:45:10.409 --> 02:45:12.950 like some of the first anime i ever got into 02:45:12.950 --> 02:45:14.909 was like emo girls that i hung out with were 02:45:14.909 --> 02:45:17.950 into love hina So I read the Love Hina mangas, 02:45:17.950 --> 02:45:20.629 and people got together and watched Love Hina 02:45:20.629 --> 02:45:24.649 on DVD. It was totally cringey shit. That's a 02:45:24.649 --> 02:45:27.030 harem show, right? Yeah, it's a harem show. It's 02:45:27.030 --> 02:45:29.190 kind of like Mahoramatic. That's what I mean. 02:45:29.250 --> 02:45:31.729 When I saw Mahoramatic, I've never seen any other 02:45:31.729 --> 02:45:35.770 anime. It's a very cliched show. but like but 02:45:35.770 --> 02:45:38.250 that's also a show that's like dealing with cliches 02:45:38.250 --> 02:45:40.430 and archetypes and whatnot and it's like maybe 02:45:40.430 --> 02:45:42.950 not dealing with them well but what i think is 02:45:42.950 --> 02:45:45.870 like a lot of the anime that i've shown you over 02:45:45.870 --> 02:45:48.270 the years or whatever and like that i've gotten 02:45:48.270 --> 02:45:49.909 into too over the years has been anime that like 02:45:49.909 --> 02:45:52.469 can stand kind of on its own outside of this 02:45:52.469 --> 02:45:56.020 anime paradigm this otaku paradigm like I've 02:45:56.020 --> 02:45:58.139 always been a big fan of Satoshi Kon, and people 02:45:58.139 --> 02:46:00.500 that I show that to always love Satoshi Kon movies. 02:46:00.840 --> 02:46:03.600 Many people can get into Miyazaki movies. These 02:46:03.600 --> 02:46:07.180 are all kind of separate from the otaku paradigm. 02:46:08.379 --> 02:46:10.860 What's interesting about Gainax movies, and specifically 02:46:10.860 --> 02:46:14.280 Evangelion, is it's totally of that paradigm. 02:46:14.540 --> 02:46:19.010 It's by otaku for otaku. Instead of being, like, 02:46:19.030 --> 02:46:22.149 by a normal person for Otaku. Like, you know 02:46:22.149 --> 02:46:24.469 what I mean? It's, these are the perverts who 02:46:24.469 --> 02:46:27.090 are running the show now. And I think that is, 02:46:27.149 --> 02:46:28.969 like, totally... Like, that's where the whole 02:46:28.969 --> 02:46:32.090 culture is now. Like, we're all... Like, there's 02:46:32.090 --> 02:46:33.909 a whole generation of people that have been brought 02:46:33.909 --> 02:46:36.389 up on stuff the same way that the nerds at Gainax 02:46:36.389 --> 02:46:38.709 were brought up on stuff and got involved. But, 02:46:38.750 --> 02:46:41.629 like, that's the norm now. Feels very true to 02:46:41.629 --> 02:46:44.170 me, too. You can just be, like, a huge fan of 02:46:44.170 --> 02:46:48.399 Marvel movies or Star Wars or... Whatever it 02:46:48.399 --> 02:46:51.840 is, all that stuff has all been around since 02:46:51.840 --> 02:46:54.559 the 80s, but now it just has completely taken 02:46:54.559 --> 02:46:58.399 over culture. There's a lot of this referential 02:46:58.399 --> 02:47:00.760 stuff and use of these archetypes within these 02:47:00.760 --> 02:47:04.190 things. don't make sense outside of the anime 02:47:04.190 --> 02:47:06.729 paradigm like a lot of these shows like are just 02:47:06.729 --> 02:47:09.889 not good outside of what they're trying to do 02:47:09.889 --> 02:47:12.809 in fan service but i think that what's interesting 02:47:12.809 --> 02:47:14.729 about evangelion is that it actually can use 02:47:14.729 --> 02:47:18.309 all of those things and like be of that thing 02:47:18.309 --> 02:47:21.809 but put it towards a real purpose um that's actually 02:47:21.809 --> 02:47:23.790 like trying to tell people to get out of this 02:47:23.790 --> 02:47:27.709 thing you know no for sure and i think that could 02:47:27.709 --> 02:47:30.940 bring us to a place where We do just talk about 02:47:30.940 --> 02:47:33.299 how a lot of this stuff wraps up and the importance 02:47:33.299 --> 02:47:37.559 of the visionaries. You know, like Anno, I think 02:47:37.559 --> 02:47:40.299 it's hard to argue with his auteur status, especially 02:47:40.299 --> 02:47:43.559 because of, like, just the consistency and quality 02:47:43.559 --> 02:47:45.940 of his work and the consistency of the themes 02:47:45.940 --> 02:47:48.719 and so many of the, you know, aesthetics he likes 02:47:48.719 --> 02:47:51.750 to use. And when you watch Love and Pop. and 02:47:51.750 --> 02:47:55.290 um ritual and i mean even way more so with shin 02:47:55.290 --> 02:47:59.409 godzilla that uses music cues and shit like and 02:47:59.409 --> 02:48:01.329 is just a remake of the episode where they have 02:48:01.329 --> 02:48:04.450 to power the the long distance rifle like sure 02:48:04.450 --> 02:48:08.290 i mean and even doing like a godzilla movie at 02:48:08.290 --> 02:48:10.370 all is just like completely leaning into the 02:48:10.370 --> 02:48:14.430 beginnings as an otaku and just like wanting 02:48:14.430 --> 02:48:18.600 to be a part of the fan culture and But he uses 02:48:18.600 --> 02:48:21.459 it to a purpose. Like that movie is a great criticism 02:48:21.459 --> 02:48:23.719 of like Japanese bureaucracy. Like one of the 02:48:23.719 --> 02:48:27.040 best since like Kiryu or something. Yeah, Shin 02:48:27.040 --> 02:48:29.520 Godzilla is awesome. It's so good. I love that 02:48:29.520 --> 02:48:33.260 movie. And so it stands to reason that like Gainax 02:48:33.260 --> 02:48:36.420 always needed a captain at the ship, right? So 02:48:36.420 --> 02:48:39.500 what's interesting about where we're at now and 02:48:39.500 --> 02:48:42.959 the possible future for Evangelion and whatever 02:48:42.959 --> 02:48:47.110 is that like... Anno was one of the main creatives 02:48:47.110 --> 02:48:50.709 to really be responsible for the success of Gainax, 02:48:50.909 --> 02:48:54.809 their impact, their ability to fund a few other 02:48:54.809 --> 02:48:58.969 important works of anime. But that it was clear 02:48:58.969 --> 02:49:01.629 that without some kind of visionary, Gainax would 02:49:01.629 --> 02:49:04.430 do what they did for most of their career, which 02:49:04.430 --> 02:49:06.870 was kind of create garbage, apparently. I haven't 02:49:06.870 --> 02:49:08.850 seen most of them. Yeah, like girl games and 02:49:08.850 --> 02:49:11.790 shit. Like horny hentai girl games. Well, the 02:49:11.790 --> 02:49:15.100 horny hentai girl games... Like Akai made those 02:49:15.100 --> 02:49:18.780 back in the 80s. And that was like the only thing 02:49:18.780 --> 02:49:22.959 bringing money into Gainax that kept them afloat 02:49:22.959 --> 02:49:25.399 while they were like hemorrhaging money on Nadia 02:49:25.399 --> 02:49:28.340 and all that stuff. Princess Maker is what it 02:49:28.340 --> 02:49:30.840 was called. And it's a pretty creepy concept 02:49:30.840 --> 02:49:36.200 of like raising a child into a woman who I think 02:49:36.200 --> 02:49:39.200 you can make strip by the end or whatever. Sounds 02:49:39.200 --> 02:49:42.690 like it would have been very popular. which became 02:49:42.690 --> 02:49:46.850 the basis of one of the later Gainax animes during 02:49:46.850 --> 02:49:50.090 their decline in Dark Period. But suffice to 02:49:50.090 --> 02:49:51.829 say, the other thing that's important about Anno, 02:49:51.930 --> 02:49:55.549 the only reason to bring up Gainax, is that Gainax 02:49:55.549 --> 02:49:58.530 has been a studio just fraught with trouble and 02:49:58.530 --> 02:50:02.010 issues the entire fucking time. And a really 02:50:02.010 --> 02:50:05.069 nice, happy ending to the story of Anno is the 02:50:05.069 --> 02:50:07.870 fact that in 2005, he went off to create Studio 02:50:07.870 --> 02:50:12.819 Kara. Just continue to foster good relationships. 02:50:13.219 --> 02:50:15.920 As a guy who talks so much about relationships 02:50:15.920 --> 02:50:18.879 and all of his self -hatred, he seems like a 02:50:18.879 --> 02:50:22.280 person everyone respects. He can continue having 02:50:22.280 --> 02:50:26.520 good relationships with Gainax. He gets to make 02:50:26.520 --> 02:50:31.500 the Evangelion reboot movies from 2006 to actually, 02:50:31.540 --> 02:50:34.200 what, 2022 when the last one came out? It was 02:50:34.200 --> 02:50:36.559 pretty recent. It's crazy. It took a long time 02:50:36.559 --> 02:50:39.639 to come out in America. But I know also like 02:50:39.639 --> 02:50:42.120 lent a huge amount of money to Gainax at one 02:50:42.120 --> 02:50:45.920 point to bail them out alone. They never repaid 02:50:45.920 --> 02:50:49.319 and stuff like that. And yeah, was always trying 02:50:49.319 --> 02:50:52.020 to be really friendly with them. But Gainax was 02:50:52.020 --> 02:50:54.079 mismanaged into the ground. Like it declared 02:50:54.079 --> 02:50:58.559 bankruptcy in like 2023 or something or 20, maybe 02:50:58.559 --> 02:51:01.780 even 2024. It was like not that long ago. But 02:51:01.780 --> 02:51:05.319 Anno saved all of the trademarks of all of his 02:51:05.319 --> 02:51:09.520 work and stuff. He negotiated a deal where, especially 02:51:09.520 --> 02:51:12.260 because they had defaulted on the loan, they 02:51:12.260 --> 02:51:15.239 didn't repay to him and stuff like that. He was 02:51:15.239 --> 02:51:19.040 able to collect basically all of the Neon Genesis 02:51:19.040 --> 02:51:22.159 Evangelion trademark. And so there's something 02:51:22.159 --> 02:51:25.639 really, really nice about, in the end, Even though 02:51:25.639 --> 02:51:27.860 the story of Gainax is so fraught that Studio 02:51:27.860 --> 02:51:30.680 Kara exists, that Anno seems to be running a 02:51:30.680 --> 02:51:32.579 really good company that's doing well and is 02:51:32.579 --> 02:51:36.360 fair to its employees, that he owns his baby 02:51:36.360 --> 02:51:40.219 and gets to do kind of whatever he wants. And 02:51:40.219 --> 02:51:44.620 I think there's even a rumor that the famed lost 02:51:44.620 --> 02:51:47.100 Gainax project, Uru and Blue, is going to be 02:51:47.100 --> 02:51:51.479 made by Kara. The sequel to Royal Space Force 02:51:51.479 --> 02:51:55.709 Animes. The Wings of Oniamis, yeah. So, yeah, 02:51:55.829 --> 02:51:58.709 it's an interesting time for Evangelion, especially 02:51:58.709 --> 02:52:02.090 still being as popular as ever. And we could 02:52:02.090 --> 02:52:04.629 see many more versions of it. We could see many 02:52:04.629 --> 02:52:06.770 more. Well, that seems to be the trend with any 02:52:06.770 --> 02:52:11.069 anime is you come out with one successful series 02:52:11.069 --> 02:52:14.690 and then you have like 30 reboots. It's the story 02:52:14.690 --> 02:52:18.069 of Gundam or whatever, like Dragon Ball. But 02:52:18.069 --> 02:52:20.549 yeah, they're not super disrespectful about. 02:52:21.340 --> 02:52:23.719 Evangelion and yeah I guess like no I mean because 02:52:23.719 --> 02:52:26.559 Anno still has control and that's I mean to me 02:52:26.559 --> 02:52:28.959 you know the guy who did Gundam still had control 02:52:28.959 --> 02:52:31.639 for a very long time and he he did continue a 02:52:31.639 --> 02:52:34.819 story in a way that you know I haven't watched 02:52:34.819 --> 02:52:37.219 all of but apparently I mean like on the same 02:52:37.219 --> 02:52:40.340 trajectory Gainax could have like made an Evangelion 02:52:40.340 --> 02:52:44.280 sequel or something without Anno's consent at 02:52:44.280 --> 02:52:47.979 a certain point you know yeah but they didn't 02:52:48.219 --> 02:52:51.959 And everything Evangelion is Anno's. I think 02:52:51.959 --> 02:52:55.600 that Evangelion is connected to Anno and he's 02:52:55.600 --> 02:52:57.620 connected to the fan community in a way that 02:52:57.620 --> 02:53:01.739 he kind of is Evangelion. And Evangelion is him. 02:53:02.139 --> 02:53:06.780 Not just artistically, but also culturally. And 02:53:06.780 --> 02:53:09.540 he's become, since the show, now he's one of 02:53:09.540 --> 02:53:13.219 the most well -known directors in Japan and stuff. 02:53:13.319 --> 02:53:17.200 He's a thing. Not just of the otaku community. 02:53:18.000 --> 02:53:20.979 Yeah, man. In general. And it seems like he's 02:53:20.979 --> 02:53:24.479 in a good place these days. Well, maybe sometime 02:53:24.479 --> 02:53:29.239 we'll talk about the reboots. The rebuilds. You 02:53:29.239 --> 02:53:32.040 should check out the rebuilds. I absolutely will 02:53:32.040 --> 02:53:34.540 check them out. Yeah, just on the strength of 02:53:34.540 --> 02:53:38.620 the last four or five episodes of Neon Genesis 02:53:38.620 --> 02:53:41.959 and the movie. I never even directly asked you, 02:53:42.059 --> 02:53:46.510 so you did like it. You enjoyed it. Yeah, I was 02:53:46.510 --> 02:53:49.969 talking to Mike a little bit earlier. That first 02:53:49.969 --> 02:53:53.590 half is so tough for me. The archetypal thing 02:53:53.590 --> 02:53:56.829 of establishing that this is a thing you recognize. 02:53:57.149 --> 02:54:00.389 This is congruent with an entire history of a 02:54:00.389 --> 02:54:05.350 genre. I really struggle with it. To the point 02:54:05.350 --> 02:54:08.649 where, yeah. It makes it hard to recommend to 02:54:08.649 --> 02:54:11.049 people, I think, is the problem with it. The 02:54:11.049 --> 02:54:12.610 first half of Evangelion, if you're trying to 02:54:12.610 --> 02:54:14.469 show somebody and be like, yeah, I know you don't 02:54:14.469 --> 02:54:16.489 like, you don't want to watch a giant robot fucking 02:54:16.489 --> 02:54:18.690 show with a bunch of kids. This turns into something 02:54:18.690 --> 02:54:21.469 great. You should check this out. But you need 02:54:21.469 --> 02:54:23.889 to sit there for, you know, eight hours first 02:54:23.889 --> 02:54:27.450 before you get to. You have to experience the 02:54:27.450 --> 02:54:30.920 subversion. It's important. Yeah. But. The type 02:54:30.920 --> 02:54:32.520 of people who would enjoy it are not the type 02:54:32.520 --> 02:54:34.420 of people who would watch the beginning of it 02:54:34.420 --> 02:54:36.639 and not turn it off. You know what I mean? Totally. 02:54:36.700 --> 02:54:39.100 And it's worth it all for End of Evangelion. 02:54:39.100 --> 02:54:41.239 It's like you guys are both saying, like, visually, 02:54:41.440 --> 02:54:45.579 it is truly cinematic. Fucking, I don't know, 02:54:45.620 --> 02:54:48.299 I'll think of Eva Unit 2 resting on the Lance 02:54:48.299 --> 02:54:51.940 of Longinus for forever. You know, it'll flash 02:54:51.940 --> 02:54:53.739 before my fucking eyes when I die, you know? 02:54:54.250 --> 02:54:56.889 Yeah, man. It's so heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking. 02:54:56.889 --> 02:55:00.329 It rules. It just looks great. You know, I don't 02:55:00.329 --> 02:55:02.889 know. It's like it was fucking handed down. It's 02:55:02.889 --> 02:55:06.110 so well staged. It hits. It really, really hits. 02:55:06.389 --> 02:55:09.649 Yeah, I completely agree. But yeah, I... Yeah, 02:55:09.729 --> 02:55:13.850 B minus. No, I'm kidding. I would... It's really... 02:55:13.850 --> 02:55:16.450 I think anyone who has even a passing interest 02:55:16.450 --> 02:55:21.350 in not just the history of anime or the biggest 02:55:21.350 --> 02:55:23.719 animes or whatever, but like... People with a 02:55:23.719 --> 02:55:25.819 genuine cinematic interest, it's like, at the 02:55:25.819 --> 02:55:29.059 very least, watch, like, what is it, Death True 02:55:29.059 --> 02:55:32.819 2, and then watch the movie. When I watched Death 02:55:32.819 --> 02:55:34.600 True 2, though, recently, I was like, this would 02:55:34.600 --> 02:55:36.860 probably be totally incomprehensible. It's not. 02:55:37.000 --> 02:55:39.440 No, I disagree. I don't think that's true. Okay. 02:55:39.520 --> 02:55:42.139 Having watched it after I watched the series, 02:55:42.219 --> 02:55:45.299 I was like, or after I watched it once back in 02:55:45.299 --> 02:55:48.959 March, you know, smoking a bunch of pot and trying 02:55:48.959 --> 02:55:51.959 to dig it, and then I watched it. with a notepad 02:55:51.959 --> 02:55:55.860 next to me and i i thought after i watched death 02:55:55.860 --> 02:55:58.000 true too i was like i should have just watched 02:55:58.000 --> 02:55:59.399 this and then i should have watched the movie 02:55:59.399 --> 02:56:02.620 again because it is it's a pretty solid it hits 02:56:02.620 --> 02:56:05.680 all of the notes that are important the things 02:56:05.680 --> 02:56:08.459 that we kind of were asking ourselves like Does, 02:56:08.459 --> 02:56:11.879 you know, Gendo and Scylla, are they at odds? 02:56:11.920 --> 02:56:16.479 That shit gets elided in Death True 2. I think 02:56:16.479 --> 02:56:18.219 it's hard to tell whether or not it would make 02:56:18.219 --> 02:56:20.860 sense if you've already seen the anime. Totally. 02:56:21.000 --> 02:56:23.219 I think showing Death True 2 to someone blind 02:56:23.219 --> 02:56:26.649 would be like... It's a lot to take in. It starts 02:56:26.649 --> 02:56:29.670 with the incident in Antarctica, and then it 02:56:29.670 --> 02:56:34.069 cuts to Shinji doing some violin, and then it 02:56:34.069 --> 02:56:35.989 shows you the beginning when he fights the... 02:56:35.989 --> 02:56:38.250 I mean, I guess it does kind of show you everything. 02:56:38.469 --> 02:56:40.709 It does. It shows you all the angels. Yeah, yeah, 02:56:40.709 --> 02:56:43.510 yeah. It is a really good recap. It's just a 02:56:43.510 --> 02:56:45.950 weird pacing thing where you're not going to 02:56:45.950 --> 02:56:47.870 feel like you're actually watching. Can I be 02:56:47.870 --> 02:56:49.889 completely fair to you? I think the first eight 02:56:49.889 --> 02:56:51.930 episodes of the show are also very weird pacing. 02:56:53.659 --> 02:56:56.379 That's true. It might be a lot harder for people 02:56:56.379 --> 02:56:57.940 to get through those eight episodes than to get 02:56:57.940 --> 02:56:59.760 through the weird facing of the movie, but it 02:56:59.760 --> 02:57:03.020 might be harder to dig it. Totally. And I think 02:57:03.020 --> 02:57:06.319 the first time I watched the show, I definitely 02:57:06.319 --> 02:57:08.500 agree. Like, I mean, when I saw the first episode 02:57:08.500 --> 02:57:10.780 in that theater that one time, I had no interest 02:57:10.780 --> 02:57:12.959 because basically nothing happens in the episode. 02:57:13.420 --> 02:57:16.040 You know, it's like, it's very slow. It takes 02:57:16.040 --> 02:57:17.979 a while to get through the first couple of plot 02:57:17.979 --> 02:57:20.840 points or whatever. And then it just leads to 02:57:20.840 --> 02:57:23.680 a giant robot battle. Yeah, it's a cool setup. 02:57:24.079 --> 02:57:26.959 I like that. I do think when you finish the show 02:57:26.959 --> 02:57:28.840 and you've seen End of Evangelion, when you go 02:57:28.840 --> 02:57:31.659 back and rewatch the first few episodes, I do 02:57:31.659 --> 02:57:33.700 think they play a lot better. And I do think 02:57:33.700 --> 02:57:36.340 a lot of the moments that happen in them are 02:57:36.340 --> 02:57:39.399 important and iconic and whatever. And there's 02:57:39.399 --> 02:57:41.739 a lot of important thematic groundwork that's 02:57:41.739 --> 02:57:46.299 being laid that either gets subverted or... explore 02:57:46.299 --> 02:57:49.719 it in more depth later i think once asuka's arc 02:57:49.719 --> 02:57:52.319 starts though they do that again anyway yeah 02:57:52.319 --> 02:57:55.760 they relay all of that groundwork you know they 02:57:55.760 --> 02:57:59.040 re -establish it and not in a way that is subversive 02:57:59.040 --> 02:58:02.299 but in a way that is setting the stage for subversion 02:58:02.299 --> 02:58:04.100 yeah i think i think you're right i think there 02:58:04.100 --> 02:58:07.459 is a lot of treading water it's all of the mech 02:58:07.459 --> 02:58:11.040 shit early on that is so tough that they're like 02:58:11.040 --> 02:58:15.829 seven angels just the monster of the week yes 02:58:15.829 --> 02:58:18.989 but what that is is fan service right you know 02:58:18.989 --> 02:58:21.110 what i mean this is a company built on fan service 02:58:21.110 --> 02:58:24.170 like the gun busters the first time they animated 02:58:24.170 --> 02:58:27.329 jiggling boobs and shit like it's they're built 02:58:27.329 --> 02:58:29.409 on fan service and so they're making a giant 02:58:29.409 --> 02:58:33.370 robot show and so the payoffs like uh pacing 02:58:33.370 --> 02:58:36.510 wise are like that this is a payoff and this 02:58:36.510 --> 02:58:43.579 is exciting you them on the elevator you know 02:58:43.579 --> 02:58:46.180 what i mean i i love the scenes of them like 02:58:46.180 --> 02:58:48.340 yeah the domestic scenes with misato and stuff 02:58:48.340 --> 02:58:51.399 and that's what like that's yeah that stuff is 02:58:51.399 --> 02:58:53.459 in the first four episodes you know yeah but 02:58:53.459 --> 02:58:56.379 it's they do it again they do it again and it's 02:58:56.379 --> 02:58:59.799 great still and it's still more of the same shit 02:58:59.799 --> 02:59:03.500 yeah it's they redo shit They do the whole thing 02:59:03.500 --> 02:59:05.280 with all their classmates getting together after 02:59:05.280 --> 02:59:08.520 that point. Totally. They didn't establish Shinji's 02:59:08.520 --> 02:59:10.180 relationship to the other two boys, but you don't 02:59:10.180 --> 02:59:12.319 need to because, like, yeah. But you spend so 02:59:12.319 --> 02:59:14.860 much time with those other two boys where they're 02:59:14.860 --> 02:59:17.059 just reacting the exact same way that Shinji 02:59:17.059 --> 02:59:19.780 is. Right, right. And especially once they get 02:59:19.780 --> 02:59:24.540 rid of fucking Toji, it really feels to me like, 02:59:24.620 --> 02:59:27.690 okay, well, that was wasted time. Like, it doesn't 02:59:27.690 --> 02:59:30.250 tell me anything about the characters. Toji becomes 02:59:30.250 --> 02:59:33.709 a plot device in a way that, like, no other character 02:59:33.709 --> 02:59:36.569 feels like a plot device in the second half. 02:59:36.750 --> 02:59:39.530 Like, Asuka is absolutely essential to, like, 02:59:39.569 --> 02:59:41.870 the deep themes of the show. Even, like, fucking 02:59:41.870 --> 02:59:44.430 Fuyutsuki, you know what I mean? Like, he plays 02:59:44.430 --> 02:59:47.489 a part in the subversive, you know, element in 02:59:47.489 --> 02:59:50.510 a way that the two boys don't. And they eat up 02:59:50.510 --> 02:59:53.370 so much more plot time than I think people remember. 02:59:53.549 --> 02:59:56.139 Especially early on, yeah. Totally. Yeah, the 02:59:56.139 --> 02:59:58.459 manga's paced a lot better. I think that a lot 02:59:58.459 --> 03:00:00.860 of these things, like the pacing and the problems 03:00:00.860 --> 03:00:03.500 of these characters that show up and don't end 03:00:03.500 --> 03:00:06.639 up, like, all of that doesn't matter if the show 03:00:06.639 --> 03:00:08.979 ends with just, oh, let's just drop all the threat. 03:00:09.100 --> 03:00:10.719 Like, you know what I mean? All of that, I give 03:00:10.719 --> 03:00:12.700 the show so much credit and forget all the things 03:00:12.700 --> 03:00:15.379 that it did wrong because it's just like, oh, 03:00:15.420 --> 03:00:17.100 I don't care about any of it anymore. Like, it 03:00:17.100 --> 03:00:19.450 just... throws away the whole plot so it's like 03:00:19.450 --> 03:00:21.590 i do forget about like if this was a show that 03:00:21.590 --> 03:00:23.149 just ended normally or whatever then i'd be like 03:00:23.149 --> 03:00:25.129 okay well this show the ending was good but the 03:00:25.129 --> 03:00:28.090 beginning had all of this like but now it's just 03:00:28.090 --> 03:00:30.690 like part of what ava is is this weird pacing 03:00:30.690 --> 03:00:33.010 and like part of it is like you start off with 03:00:33.010 --> 03:00:35.209 this very slow thing of trying to watch this 03:00:35.209 --> 03:00:37.909 type of show and then it changes into this other 03:00:37.909 --> 03:00:39.290 type of show and it's like yeah you don't need 03:00:39.290 --> 03:00:41.010 to watch that first type of show actually it 03:00:41.010 --> 03:00:43.690 would work fine if you just started just before 03:00:43.690 --> 03:00:47.620 it changes but I give it the credit to have bad 03:00:47.620 --> 03:00:49.979 pacing because it ends the way that it does. 03:00:50.459 --> 03:00:53.579 That was the reality we almost entered, but we 03:00:53.579 --> 03:00:55.819 shifted into a different reality. Right, right, 03:00:55.840 --> 03:00:57.840 right. And Anno was in control of where that 03:00:57.840 --> 03:00:59.600 reality shifted. Like it went from a monster 03:00:59.600 --> 03:01:01.479 of the week to Anno's. And I think if you're 03:01:01.479 --> 03:01:03.639 deeply versed in something like Gundam and it 03:01:03.639 --> 03:01:06.559 has a similar format to Evangelion, those early 03:01:06.559 --> 03:01:11.239 episodes probably feel, it adds like a kind of 03:01:11.239 --> 03:01:14.819 meta. reverence and resonance he's also dealing 03:01:14.819 --> 03:01:17.219 with archetypes there that western audiences 03:01:17.219 --> 03:01:20.379 aren't picking up on he's totally like he's flipping 03:01:20.379 --> 03:01:23.739 when he walks in on Ray in the room and he touches 03:01:23.739 --> 03:01:26.379 the boob and whatever and then Ray all of that 03:01:26.379 --> 03:01:29.000 is already turning archetypes on their heads 03:01:29.000 --> 03:01:31.840 but like to us it just kind of feels like weird 03:01:31.840 --> 03:01:34.100 shit happening you know what I mean and it feels 03:01:34.100 --> 03:01:37.399 like it's just an anime and those are anime tropes, 03:01:37.399 --> 03:01:40.000 and so it's annoying to watch. You know what 03:01:40.000 --> 03:01:42.799 I mean? 100%. That's exactly how I feel. That's 03:01:42.799 --> 03:01:44.520 the thing that's so hard to get people to watch 03:01:44.520 --> 03:01:46.780 this show, because you're like, I know there's 03:01:46.780 --> 03:01:49.479 going to be a point when Shinji grabs this girl's 03:01:49.479 --> 03:01:52.079 boob, and panties fly in the air, and he looks 03:01:52.079 --> 03:01:54.979 all embarrassed, and there's a big teardrop on 03:01:54.979 --> 03:01:57.219 his head. I love the big teardrop, and I love 03:01:57.219 --> 03:01:58.760 Pen Pen, and we've barely even talked about it. 03:01:58.760 --> 03:02:01.100 Pen Pen's the best, dude. Pen Pen's the best 03:02:01.100 --> 03:02:04.459 girl. Yeah, Pen Pen is the best girl. It's amazing 03:02:04.459 --> 03:02:08.409 how Pen Pen, exist in this show at all. Totally 03:02:08.409 --> 03:02:14.209 agree. You know who doesn't fucking die? Pen 03:02:14.209 --> 03:02:17.549 Pen. We don't see Pen Pen die. It would have 03:02:17.549 --> 03:02:22.829 been way too sad. I know. They just ignore Pen 03:02:22.829 --> 03:02:26.149 Pen's instrumentality scene. It's not Emperor 03:02:26.149 --> 03:02:28.450 Penguin instrumentality. It's human instrumentality. 03:02:28.930 --> 03:02:34.229 It's true. Pen Pen lives on. I don't know. Would 03:02:34.229 --> 03:02:37.059 you say that's it? Mattress man? I'd say that's 03:02:37.059 --> 03:02:37.159 that.