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myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything but the little fishies. All
right, welcome to Everything But the Little Fishies.
Welcome. I'm Evan. I'm Mike. And today we're
talking about the cult classic Revenge of the
Nerds from 1984 and The Fly from 1986. Cronenberg's.
Cronenberg's. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. With an honorable
mention of the original from 1958. But we'll
get there. So yeah, to start with Revenge of
the Nerds, first time I've seen this movie. I
just watched it the other night. Obviously it
has a reputation. I can't say I've ever really
known that much about it. I had no idea what
the plot would be like. I had no idea. with the
thematic material. I guess I could only surmise
from the title and the artwork on the front of
the box that it would be some kind of satirical
movie about how the misunderstood nerds who are
always made fun of and picked on get to get back
at the jocks and all the people who have wronged
them. And I think when I was younger and I would
look at the front of this box, I always imagined
it would be a movie I'd like because I always
kind of thought I was one of them. I always kind
of thought I was a nerd, or at least I was just
not a popular kid, and I was teased a lot and
made fun of a lot. And I think when I was younger,
I had a lot of kind of revenge fantasies about
what I would do to the popular kids. gross kind
of fantasies about like getting the girls that
are out of your league and sick twisted fantasies
about taking what's yours and uh finding these
clever ways to overpower the um the people who
are keeping you down and stuff like that and
now that i've seen the movie i guess like it
is that but i mean that i think is one of the
things that's so interesting about it is the
the idea of the archetype of the nerd, right?
And like what that means in the culture. And
like, I think you're hitting the nail right on
the head just from the start is like, yeah, like
we, we as nineties kids. Like, we identify with
the nerds. We kind of have been brought up in
this sort of situation where, yeah, fuck the
jocks. The nerds are the lead of all of our movies,
right? Like, it's always about the kid that's
picked on finally getting his, you know, finally
getting the girl or whatever. It's never about
the jock getting the girl. Like, how many, you
know, I don't know. Yeah, that's, at least in
the movies we watched in the 90s and stuff, that
was like the archetypal shift. Right, right.
And I think what's really interesting in looking
at this movie in 84, I mean, like, the idea of
the underdog is, you know, a long -held American
tradition, an American archetype. Maybe one of
the most important American archetypes. But I
think that Revenge of the Nerds does something
really interesting in that, like... It takes
that archetype and it applies it to nerds, which
is kind of this new sort of concept. I mean,
not really a new concept. Nerds have been around
for many years. But the conception of the nerds
in this movie, I think, is very interesting.
Just the idea of what a nerd is, you know? Yeah,
I actually kind of wonder when the term nerd
was first created. because yeah i mean i guess
you would have called like any scientist a nerd
or any mathematician a nerd or anybody that was
into computers a nerd or whatever right and i
we looked up um when we were watching revenge
of the nerds one of the guys names is poindexter
and lisa's like what the fuck is poindexter where
did that term come from and looked it up and
apparently it was a like a cartoon from the 50s
or 60s There's a character named Poindexter that
I assume was like a nerdy sort of character archetype
and whatnot. So, I mean, this is an archetype
that pre -exists Revenge of the Nerds, obviously.
I'm sure that, you know, the guys who were making
the atomic bomb were looked at as nerds, like,
and not jocks. That's, you know, a pre -existing
archetype. This is what Google says about nerd.
It first appeared in print in 1950 in Dr. Seuss'
children's book, If I Ran the Zoo. Wow. Interesting.
Seuss came up with the nerd. According to Google,
which like, well, yeah. According to AI, it also
says that like 2001 was based on a dream that
Kubrick had that nobody has ever said. Yeah,
but if you go down, yeah, if you go down, like
it's the Merriam -Webster also corroborates that.
So the nerd comes around around the time that
like the teenagers being popularized and stuff.
Sure. Which is kind of what we're doing in this
college movie too. Like all of this stuff is
kind of. And I guess in the 1950s, individuals
who might be considered nerds were often labeled
squares or trips. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I
mean, there were nerds in happy days and stuff.
There were nerds, like, you know, nerds exist.
Sure. I mean, it's an archetype that's been around
for a while, but it does feel like a modern archetype.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think that part of
it is that it's uniquely tied to computers in
the modern sort of context, which I think is
extremely important for both of these movies.
But the other thing that I think that's interesting
about Revenge of the Nerd specifically is that
it doesn't even keep the nerd archetype specifically
to the computer thing or anything. A nerd is
not necessarily a computer kid or a smart kid
or anything. You know what I mean? A nerd is
just anyone who sees themselves as picked on.
You know what I mean? Anyone who sees themselves
as a victim, essentially. Sure, but... Or anyone
we see as a victim, too, or whatever. Yeah, but
in the movie, Lewis, the more confident nerd,
Part of his confidence has to do with the fact
that he doesn't actually see himself as a nerd.
And part of his arc, if you can even call it
that, in the movie is him just coming to terms
with the fact that he is one. Right. And then
Gilbert gives that speech in the end that says,
I'm proud of being a nerd. And it's all about
this acceptance of being the nerd. Right. Or
whatever. Which is a universal theme that you
can apply to queer narratives and all sorts of
these underdog narratives. Yeah, sure. And that's
what Revenge of the Nerds goes really far out
of its way to do, is to extend the nerd thing
to all liberal causes, essentially. No, you're
right, because there's like a gay black kid.
A gay black kid, there's a Japanese kid. There's
the stoner guy who just, I mean. He, what is,
I mean, when I was watching the release, the
release was like, this guy's cool. Like, why,
how is he a nerd? This guy's cool. I would fuck
this guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're talking about
Booger. Yeah, Booger, Booger. And it's like,
yeah, well, he's confident. I like Booger. Booger
has a certain confidence to him that like is
cool. Like, even though, yeah, he's not cool,
he's gross, but like, that's not a nerd archetype
in any like conception of like, you know what
I mean? But it extends it to that too. It's all
of these people that it's like, no matter who
you are watching this movie, you can be like,
no, I'm a nerd and I'm against the jocks, you
know? And the jocks are, yeah, sorry. No, and
I think one of the more problematic elements
of the movies is that the whole nerd troop ends
up getting identified with the black. fraternity?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's the same thing.
I was like, so we're the minorities, so we're
going to go find the other minorities, the black
fraternity. Right, right. And we're going to
get championed by them. Well, so this is the
thing. I think what's interesting is the nerds
in this movie are defined almost exclusively
as being deficient. And you can say there's the
gay black one or whatever, but like... I think
it's kind of a homophobic, racist movie that
is, like, that's his deficiency. Like, you know
what I mean? Like, each of these guys have a
deficiency. Lewis and Gilbert have a deficiency.
Poindexter has a deficiency. Takashi has a...
Like, Poindexter can't see. Like, Gilbert and
Lewis are... Like, they all have their... Like,
Gilbert is too attached to his mother. Lewis
is, like... I don't know. He's Jewish. Like,
I don't know who these... But each of these guys
have a thing. And, like, basically it's defined
by their unattractiveness and their unattractiveness
to women. Like, that is, like, across the board,
that is what the kind of definition is. They
are deficient and unattractive to women. And
then they take that and extend it to the black,
like. uh civil rights movement you know what
i mean it's like yeah i know like to say that
these are the same thing that like people who
are ugly and unattractive and basically deficient
they're bad at things like like point dexter's
like shoving his hand into a blender and stuff
like these guys can't do anything well And the
only reason that they do well in the tests in
the end is because they cheat. Like every single
test that they win is them cheating. They don't
play the game at all. They cheat. They like use
loopholes to create their fraternity by like,
you know, ascribing their struggle to the black
struggle. And like they do, like all of these
things are these like weird, shady, self, you
know, aggrandizing moves to create their own
like, I don't know, success out of their victimhood.
um and say like no we are the victims and we
are together on this against you and you guys
are the ones that it times up and it's time for
us and blah blah blah yeah and like what actually
relates all of them more than anything is their
desire for sex yeah because they're because all
their deficiencies make them unattractive to
women and so like women is like the thing they
all universally desire that they don't have right
And they're using all of their skills to get
without being attractive to them, without consensual,
like without consent. It's all about them like
stealing what they think is theirs. And in the
end, they do. They win all the contests. They
steal what is theirs through shady, disgusting,
unattractive means. And then they're like, no,
we're like the Black Panthers, basically. It's
just like this movie is so evil. Like it's to
to to ascribe like this. I mean, it's a liberal
ideology is the point, though. It's we are all
victims. We all are outsiders. I define myself
as against this like culture that is run by the
jocks and whatever. But what are the jocks like?
That's that's the thing that I think is really
interesting in this movie is like if the nerds
are defined as simply being like unattractive
to women and whatever, like what are the jocks?
Because, like, I mean, when it's Lewis, right,
who rapes the girl in the Darth Vader costume.
When Lewis, he has the, like, well, all jocks
think about is sports and all nerds think about
is sex. What a pickup line. Nerds are like these
totally, like, deficient, perverse, like, it's
a perversion. It's a thing that has been done
to them that has made them, like. singularly
singularly focused on this one thing yeah they're
so sexually repressed so like it comes out in
really toxic ways right um whereas the jocks
like they get to have sex and sex actually isn't
like the most important thing to them like they're
sort of somewhat career focused that's what it
means to be into the football or whatever like
They want to work on a team, and they want to
play the game, and they want to win. Yeah, they're
part of a team as well. And the nerds create
their own team, and maybe that was the thing
that they were lacking before, is that they were
all a bunch of these socially inept losers who
didn't have a team. But then they learn, oh,
these are my people. These are all the downtrodden,
misunderstood minorities and whatever, and we
are a team. Right. But yeah, the only thing that
actually connects them all is just that repression
and that frustration. And that they all kind
of suck more than the jocks, basically. They're
less attractive than the jocks. They actually
do suck. The thing I was thinking, right when
the movie started, is it's really weird that
this movie seems so sincere. That like, it really
feels like we're supposed to just be on the side
of the nerds. Right. This feels like a movie
made for nerds. Like it's some kind of weird,
like fantasy fulfillment for nerds. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely. And people and whatever. And
you sort of are supposed to side with them, but
like. The first thing that happens when they
get to campus is, like, they're carrying those
oversized chests that just have stupid fucking
robots in them that they don't need. Yeah. And,
like, they're just, like, trampling people on
the lawn. And they, like, cause a car accident
and, like, a bike accident and shit. Like, they're
just, like, completely oblivious. Yeah. And they're
causing chaos to all the people who have to survive.
And they're causing chaos. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. Like, it's, like, actually, it's an insanely
annoying sequence. There's detritus in their
wake. Because it's supposed to play as, like...
Yeah, it's supposed to play as, like, this funny,
silly thing, like, oh, how endearing they are.
But, like, watching it, I was just like, dude,
these guys suck. Yeah, they actually already
in the first scene do more harm than the jocks
do, like, to anybody other than themselves. Like,
the jocks harm themselves, sure. They burn down
their own house. But, like, they don't do anything.
I mean, the jocks. The jocks suck to a certain
degree because, like, it's not really fair that
they burn down their own house and then they
get to just take the nerds' house and stuff.
And then they continue to antagonize the nerds
and stuff. Like, they really do just, like, hate
the nerds for no reason that's established. Right,
right. Like, they just hate the nerds because
they're nerds. Yeah. And then, like, so, like,
you end up kind of siding with the nerds because
you're like, yeah, this is really unfair what's
happening to them and stuff like that. But to
me, this feels like an unreliable narrator. Like,
it's just the person who's writing this is a
nerd. Like, so all of this is written to appeal
to that. So, like, when the jocks burn down their
house, like, we see what they do. They just literally
spray the walls with fire. And then they're like,
oh, it was fun. It was faulty wiring. But, like,
maybe what actually happened was, like, no, it
was faulty wiring. Some nerd fucking installed
faulty wiring. And then the nerd who retold the
story was like, yeah, those assholes burned down
their house. Because that's what jocks do. But
it's like, no, like, really, it's like, maybe
it was the technology that failed. And the jocks
are being blamed for being these, like, over
-the -top cartoonish ogres. When there's a perfectly
reasonable explanation. And it is that the nerds
don't know how to fucking install electricity
and whatever. Like, I don't know. You know? But
it does feel like a, like... oh, look at these
jocks blaming technology when obviously they
burned down their house. And it's like, well,
I don't know. I feel like the other one happens
maybe even more often in reality. Like, I think
that electrical circuitry... It was not due to
our human error. Yeah, it was not due to... Yeah,
yeah, exactly. It was not due to the human error
of the nerds. It was due to the human error of
the other ones because the technology itself
could never have failed. And that's taken for
granted in the movie. But again, it feels like
an unrobable narrator. It feels like some idiot
wrote this who believes that. I also just felt
like even though I did think like it was a little
bit unfair that the jocks got to take their house
and that they were being so, you know, I mean,
they weren't really doing anything that crazy
to the nerds. They're just pranking them all
the time. And like, I mean, taking the house
was like the big one or whatever. But that like
has a lot to do with just like the power structure
of the school. Right. I mean, they bring millions
of dollars into the school every year, I'm sure.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The jocks are more important
or whatever. They are contributing to this thing.
They're in control of the thing. They've been
in control of it for many years. They're holding
this whole institution together, and they don't
have little robot maids, and they don't have
video cameras to spy on the girls. They have
their own infrastructure. But the nerds then,
you know, use their new technology to exploit
that and then just, you know, take over this
infrastructure. Yeah, this is what I was going
to say. It was like that at the beginning you
kind of like feel like, yeah, maybe the nerds,
like the jocks aren't treating them really nice
and this kind of sucks for them. It's a little
unfair. But then the longer the movie goes on,
the more you're just like, dude. fuck these nerds.
They're like horrendously evil. Somebody needs
to keep them down. Like somebody needs to keep
them down. Somebody needs to beat the shit out
of them. Yeah, like if you watch the whole movie
and then you go back to the beginning when the
jocks just start yelling nerds at them, it's
just like, well, yeah, you should treat them
like that because they're like rapey, disgusting,
evil human beings. And you can see it by looking
at their faces and how they're dressed and how
poorly they are like integrating into society,
how much damage they do on all the people around
them without realizing. They are just deficient.
You should shun them. You should shun them. You
don't want them in your institutions. All they're
going to do is create a horrible, rapey, disgusting
technological paradigm in which they take all
of the power away from the people who have charisma
and put it into the most rapey, disgusting nerd
people. And then you get, you know, Elon Musk
with his six wives and whatever, like being successful.
And, you know, we can't see jocks like being
successful in the culture anymore because that
would be, it's like, what are you even talking
about? At least the jock had something going
for it. At least the jock had charisma. Yeah,
and they play fair. They don't cheat. They're
doing things based on merit. Right. At least
on some level. At least on the merit of charisma.
At least on the merit of charisma. When we're
talking about the competition of who the culture
thinks is... As far as archetypes of masculinity,
who defines what is successful as an archetype
of masculinity in the culture? The females. Like
that is the definition of, you know, which of
those archetypes is the thing. So when we're
talking about like the nerds being unattractive,
we're talking about just like the paradigm not
putting their thing on a pedestal. You know what
I mean? And then like them through these shady
means changing the paradigm in which like they
then gain the women, you know, then they rise
to the top of the ziggurat or whatever. Sure.
And I think the movie works in that way, in a
really prescient way, to describe the actual
rise of the nerds that's happened in our culture.
It's the story of the internet. It's the story
of the internet. I mean, the first thing they
do is they start introducing this underage kid
to pornography. They're sitting there watching
naked women with this child. You know what I
mean? Just because, like, no, they're just putting
it on the Internet. Like, and then children are,
you know, it's the paradigm in which every 12
-year -old in the world watches DP porn. Like,
that happens in the first. And the revenge porn,
the spying on the women in the bathroom and using
that and having ownership of the images of the
women. I mean, that's Facebook. And that's revenge
porn. And that is the paradigm in which, like,
we live now as far as, you know, toxic male behavior.
Yeah. I mean, the movie could be smarter, though.
Like, I think one of the most baffling things
that happens in the movie is that Lewis tricks
that cheerleader and essentially rapes her, but
she totally... digs it like she's like you're
that nerd and you were amazing yeah and then
he says that line about how like all we think
about is sex and like none of this is creepy
or perverse or disgusting to her and then like
the next like the next scene she's just like
i'm in love with a nerd it's like why because
he raped me because he took ownership over me
and blah blah blah like the thing is the nerds
the nerds have a more toxic masculine like power
over like they they don't respect consent like
the people who wrote this movie are people who
thought that like yeah what you do is you get
a girl and you have sex with her whether she
wants to or not and that's how she falls in love
with you like you know what i mean it's and that's
that's what you know like maybe like the toxic
masculine you know kings of ancient like whatever
it would have said like you know what i mean
mesopotamian kings might have been toxic masculine
and thought the same way but like that's not
what the jocks are in this movie like it's that's
what the nerds are that's the only people who
are able to be that toxic are nerds who are deficient
and are taking it back you know yeah for sure
And it's because they can't win in any other
paradigm. It's because they're so unattractive
to women. It's because they actually are deficient
and they actually do not deserve the approval
of the women that they have to just take it.
And the idea that them taking it and winning
is triumph is like, no, dude, that's about the
worst team cheating and taking over. That's,
you know what I mean? It's not a fair game. It's
not a fair competition. They're not playing fair.
They're not playing based on any merits. Because
if they had to, then they would lose. Yeah, then
they'd lose, exactly. If they actually had to
play fair, they'd have no chance against the
jocks. And that really is the thing. It's almost
like a topping from the bottom situation as well,
right? Like how the system and the power structure
as it's set up doesn't allow those at the bottom.
to rise up within the rules of the system so
they have to game the system right and that's
like they game it through all of these they game
it through all of these shady cheating behind
the scenes disgusting memes where like yeah it's
so much more impressive for like ogre to like
lift a bunch of weights and then fuck a girl
than it is for you know lewis to you know sneak
into a girl's bathroom and take naked pictures
of her like you know what i mean it's like one
of these guys is like i am really like maybe
i'm dumb but i'm good at something the other
guy is just like i'm gonna fucking take your
panties it's like why why do we side with that
guy and why did our culture side with this like
you know what i mean i think it's like it is
advertising for technology that allows people
who are deficient to feel like oh with this technology
i can masturbate to all sorts of beautiful naked
women on the internet. You know what I mean?
I have access to the female form. I can eventually,
maybe I'll be able to create a robot woman and
I'll be able to blah, blah, blah. And like, this
is, it's disgusting. I don't know. The thing
is like, for me, this does come out a few years
after Porky's. So it also feels like it's trying
to do this kind of genre. Of course. Like where
like, it's about like this objectification of
women and this sort of like, not in like a, interesting
or like self -critical way or whatever it's just
like the movie literally is made to like the
whole point of the movie is like the girls taking
off their tops and seeing the tits and the bush
shot and like all this kind of stuff it's like
that's like the appeal of the movie you have
a bunch of nerds come watch this and it's like
that's like that'll turn them on and that's like
yeah there's something about the there's something
about the voyeurism and the like the lack of
consent and well there's also yeah there's the
fantasy that this actually could happen to you
right because like yeah you're not good enough
to ever you know you're not attractive enough
or smart enough or cunning enough or have enough
game or whatever to ever even talk to one of
these girls but If you have the internet, you
can totally see them in their bathrooms taking
a shower. You can sneak in and rape them if you
wanted to. These are all accessible fantasies
to people who are disgusting and deficient and
hate themselves. Yeah, and now their culture
has won out so hard that girls will willingly
do that. That's like the whole thing of OnlyFans
or whatever, an entire culture and infrastructure
that's been created. for girls to sell their
bodies and sex directly to the nerds over the
internet. Right. Right. And get paid for it or
whatever. Right. Totally. Totally. It's depraved,
you know? Yeah. It's like, we've got, and I think
like TikTok and Instagram is like an extension
of that too, even though they're not getting
naked, like the entire. infrastructure is to
like sell yourself no i mean like yeah this was
the whole focus of um um the social network movie
is just that you know facebook is an extension
of revenge porn and that you know owning a woman's
image and having i mean people don't really think
about but like you when when we were in you know
elementary school or middle school like if you
had a crush on a girl from school like You could
maybe have a picture of her from your yearbook
or something. Like, you know what I mean? But
it's not, you didn't just have access to photos
of women that you saw in real life. Like, you
know what I mean? That was like having ownership
of a photo of a woman. That's like what people
brought to war. Like, that's like, that is like
a thing that is valuable. And Zuckerberg understood
the value of that and that created this entire
world that we live in. But that's a world that
is catering to this. distanced nerd who's too
afraid to talk to the woman in person but wants
to be able to jerk off to her alone in his room
by himself sure and that is what only fans comes
from that's what the internet is that's what
the internet is not for these jocks who actually
like could seduce a woman or be good at something
in real life or like be impressive or anything
it is built for these nerds and i think the thing
is like we were talking right when we opened
up like the the idea of like the in the 90s we
all like were sold this idea of like you know
fuck the popular kids fuck the jocks like it's
all about like the freaks and the geeks and like
you know what i mean it's the the outsider thing
and i always ascribed to that as a kid probably
because just i'm a pop culture junkie um although
honestly like when i was a younger kid i wasn't
even as into i don't know whatever the point
is i i did somehow absorb that through the culture
and like i often would just hang with the like
real loser kids like you know what i mean there's
like i you know the kids that were cooler than
me made me feel insecure you know what i mean
i had to like you know i i felt like i'm not
cool enough to be here maybe that wasn't a cool
thing to say this wasn't interesting that wasn't
funny whatever i'm second guessing myself if
you're hanging out with some nerds it's kind
of like oh well you could just be yourself and
whatever like these like i'm i'm I don't know.
I think part of it is like, yeah, these people
are deficient. So like, I don't, I'm like, I'm
already cooler than these people, you know? But
I think there's like, I think of like, these
are the actual cool people. I've been told these
are the actual cool people. I don't want to be
a part of that like group of, you know, football
players and whatever. I want to be with the nerds
who play video games and watch anime and blah,
blah, blah. And then at a certain point in middle
school, I just remember one of them. bit this
other kid. And I was just kind of like, dude,
we're in middle school and I'm hanging out with
the kids who are biting people. Maybe there's
a reason that these are the outcasts. Maybe I've
had it all backwards. You know what I mean? I
actually don't want to hang out with the kids
who are just reciting Pokemon at recess and biting
other kids in eighth grade. These are weird autistic
people like that. I am not. I'm not one of them.
Like, I don't want to be one of them. This is
not what I aspire to. And then at that point,
I kind of started trying to hang out with skater
kids and blah, blah, blah. You know, I tried
to change my life as an eighth grader. But it
is a thing of just kind of like I did forever
buy into the like, we'll just fuck the people
who are popular. And like, the question is, why?
Why do we have that? Like, who are the people
that are popular? They're just kind of the people
who are like. attractive and charismatic and
good at things like and other people tend to
like them the people who are like the outcasts
are generally the people who like bite other
kids in eighth grade you know what i mean it's
like and yeah those kids are the kids who are
the hero in this movie and it's like you know
just because you bite kids still doesn't mean
you shouldn't be able to rape women too it's
like i can't believe they made this movie and
then ascribe that to the black struggle and whatever
it's just like it's so incredibly like offensive
just in every context And the idea that people
could not see that, who'd watch this and actually
side with that, is so crazy to me. Yeah, and
who knows how many people do. And I bet this
is a movie that most people would find problematic
now or whatever. And maybe even at the time.
Part of what movies does is it exploits our darkest
fantasies and makes them into a thing. And maybe
that's part of what this movie did and was successful
with. And people knew it was a dark fantasy or
whatever. But I think that whole, I think that
whole like notion to say, fuck the popular kids
and stuff just gets to like, it's like you're,
you're play acting in school at social hierarchy.
Right. And I just think there's bottom line when
you go out into the real world. Yeah. Like the
people at the bottom of the social hierarchy
or the power hierarchy are like, fuck the people
in power. Why do they get to be in power? What,
what is it that's so good about them and all
this kind of stuff. Right. Right. Like I, I remember
being a kid, and, like, someone probably called
me a nerd at some point. Like, of course I never,
like, self -identified as a nerd or something,
you know, but, like, I had really stupid, goofy
glasses. I, like, didn't really care about how
I dressed and stuff, so I dressed weird. And,
I don't know, I had my own sort of, like, idiosyncratic,
like, interests and things like that. I always
kind of thought that like what it meant to be
a popular kid was like to be a sort of poser.
Like you kind of just like ascribe to whatever
the culture has decided is important or popular.
And you, you know, and I think that that extends
out into the real world, not just in the school
environment, but it all starts in that school
environment of like, well, this is what the system
says is popular. You want to have school spirit.
You want to play in a sports team. You want to.
Yada, yada. That's how you end up in a position
to be part of a fraternity in the future and
to get into the club, so to speak, so that you
have power and influence when you're an adult.
You have to have the charisma and social currency.
You have to actually be a social person who has
confidence, isn't afraid of what other people
think. I was just the kind of kid who, if someone
picked on me, I could not roll with those punches.
And then it would turn me into a victim, someone
that was easy to keep walking over. I'd become
a doormat because my perspective was just kind
of like, why can't people just treat me nice?
It's like, what am I doing wrong? And so then
you end up finding all your comfort in just being
a homebody and playing video games or eventually
going on the internet. And just like, this is
where you sort of find your comfort zone. and
where you're accepted and whatever. But yeah,
I feel like. But that's a hyper individualistic
idea of a life. Like, you know what I mean? It's,
it's not, not, not finding value in like culture
and society and you know, the work and all of
the things outside of kind of your room, you
know? Yeah, I hated sports. I hated, like, that
was a place where I, because I, like, wasn't
good at it, you know, and I guess I wasn't willing
to get good at it, and I didn't care about it.
I didn't think it was fun. I, like, wasn't, like,
a physical person. I liked mental activities.
I mean, I was always an artist, too. Like, I
just like to draw. I just like to, you know,
give me, like, a pen and paper, and I'll just,
like, make art. And so, I don't know, like, it's
funny that there isn't really, like, an art kid
in Revenge of the Nerds. That's like associated
with the nerds. Yeah. Not like, that's kind of
like what my identity became where it's like,
I'm not a jock. I'm not a nerd. I'm an art kid.
Yeah. And like art kids are a weird, like middle
of the fence kind of. I think, I think that,
I think that archetype kind of is post revenge
of the nerds. I think, I think that archetype
kind of comes about with, I mean, they have burning
down the house in there. But I think a lot of
that comes with some... Yeah, I mean, the soundtrack
is amazing, by the way. Like, there's thrillers
in it. Like, there's so many, like, big, heavy
-hitting songs in this movie. Yeah. But I think
the art kid, like, that comes with the talking
heads and irony and stuff that this movie doesn't
really understand yet. but like, because it uses
the talking heads in the context of the, the
jocks burning down there. And it's like, well,
is, is the talking heads jocks music to you?
Like, is that, or is it just, this is just a
literal title burning down the house and it's
a popular song. So you did it in the scene where
they're burning down the house. Like that's really
probably what happened, but yeah, the music,
the music is awesome, but like the choice of
using it is kind of dumb. Yeah. The reason they're
using every song is for like a really dumb reason
that doesn't. actually have a lot of introspection
about what the song is or what it means or what
the band is. Except for Swing Low, Swing Chariot.
That was the... Sure. That was a very good...
That was one of my favorite racial jokes. They're
like, let's put on something they don't like.
It's on Swing Low, Swing Chariot. And then the
gay black kid comes up and he's like, sorry.
And he turns it off. As soon as he's like, Swing
Low. He's like, nope, nope, next. Sorry, guys.
They don't know. That was interesting, too, that
like... the the nerds really just like couldn't
party until they smoked weed yeah yeah like they
just uh they needed the drugs which i i relate
to that kind of shit too because i i'm really
socially inept i mean i've gotten better as time
went on but when i was a kid dude i was so socially
inept yeah but i'm not i got better when i smoked
a bunch of weed if i was like still in a nerd
like I don't know. You know, I feel like if you're
that in your head and like you can't talk to
a girl at a party and you're all on opposite
sides and then you smoke weed, it's like maybe
if they started drinking, it might make more
sense to me. But I feel like if they smoked weed.
No, you're right. Like if they didn't. They would
all just get even more. They would all just get
even more like internal and just get even more
awkward and weird. Yeah. They'd probably want
to talk about their robots more or something
with each other. Like, I don't know. Yeah. If
you give them some beer and cocaine, maybe that
would. Exactly. That's. A little cocaine is what
was missing. It was 1984. Where's the cocaine?
Yeah. I'm sure it was on set is where it was.
For sure. For sure. But, yeah. I don't know,
man. This is such a fucking weird, problematic
movie. Yeah. For so many reasons. For so many
reasons. But at the same time, so prescient.
Like, really actually does say. It predicts the
internet era. It predicts the internet era. It
predicts the rise of the nerd in a real way.
Yeah, the death of an old -style masculinity
and the whole paradigm of perverts running the
place by taking ownership of images of the popular
women and then winning them from the jocks because
they're more successful because they cheated
through the paradigm. Yeah. I think if this movie
was actually smarter and introspective, It could
have actually been a really interesting conversation
about power in general. Because what you are
seeing is, yeah, you're seeing a hierarchy. You're
seeing a social hierarchy that's determined by
the system. And certain people benefit for being
the ones who can plug into that matrix and other
people's don't. And I think part of what's interesting
is that, yeah, the jocks kind of suck, but they
only suck because they have the power. And then
once the nerds have the power, they suck just
as much, if not more. Yeah, they suck much more.
They suck more and they're unattractive and uncharismatic
and are causing chaos. I mean, I guess the jocks
are causing chaos, too. Fine. They are. I mean,
the jocks are pretty chaotic. But, dude, everybody
looks like they're having a good time at those
jock parties at the beginning. Right. When you
compare the intro of the nerds causing the chaos
and trampling people on the lawn with the jocks
who are just having a good time in their house.
They throw a guy off the roof. They throw a guy
off the roof. But that's fun. That's just good
college fun. Yeah, it's just good college fun.
It's super cartoony, honestly. It's also not
a nerd that they throw off the roof. They're
always throttling people and throwing them out
windows and whatnot. Those are just other jocks
who are like... happy to be there you know what
i mean it's like dude this is an out of control
party i got thrown out a window i got thrown
off like whatever like we never see any i don't
know any real violence the only thing that the
that the jocks do to the nerds is they destroy
their house after like in retaliation to like
them cheating all the way through the whole competition
like well the the jocks don't like that they
renovate that other house Like, they drive by
and, like, fuck these nerds. They renovated this
house. Fuck them. And they throw, like, a brick
through the window that says, get out, nerds,
or whatever. Like, they're antagonizing them.
And then there's the flaming nerds on their front
lawn. It's really funny. When I was watching
with Elise, I was like, dude, do you see that
they're equating the fucking nerd struggle to
the black struggle? And that, like, this is the
new N -word and whatever. And Bob Lodge is like,
I think this is a stretch. Yeah, exactly. I think
this is a stretch. And then, like, during that
scene, the brick comes through the window and
there's a flaming nerd. It's literally, they're
the KKK and they are the blacks. And what I was
saying is, that's a stretch. And then as soon
as it cuts, there's a flaming cross on the front
lawn that says nerds on it. It's like, okay,
it's not a stretch. I was like, yeah, I know.
It's fucking ridiculous that they're doing this.
Can you believe that they had the balls to do
it? It's insane, this movie. It's totally insane.
Because yeah, that is all just like really, really
iconic. behavior of like racist white story black
people yeah throw a brick through their window
with a nasty message you light something on fire
in their lawn but equating that with as if it's
the same thing when you're talking about like
these really annoying unattractive pieces of
shit who are going to destroy the whole system
so that they can rape our women it's like well
i think that if you're equating those two things
then you're a racist or you don't understand
how bad your side like one of the two like you
know what i mean Yeah, and that's why it ends
up feeling so... That's why it ends up just being
like, you can't root for these nerds. This is
awful. Because the jocks, they throw a brick
through their window and they light something
on fire in their lawn. But what the nerds do,
they set up a fucking surveillance. They rape
their girlfriends. They rape their girlfriends
and he prints his girlfriend's naked body on
the bottom of those pie sheets and shit. Which
allows him to win that contest. Yeah, exactly.
They win the contest through revenge porn of
the specific guy's girlfriend that he then is
going to rape. It's like, that's my pie. And
it's off of the sacrifice of that, you know,
it's like the Mayans or whatever. You sacrifice
the virgin and out of that, like, alchemy, you
get, like, godly power or something. You walk
around with her skin on you all day. Like, that's
who the nerds are. Like, they're these evil,
like, and it's, yes, it's toxic masculinity.
Like, but just like an ancient and, like, actually
toxic form as opposed to, like, the jocks are
just kind of like. Their toxic masculinity, what?
Because they're like getting all the women and
they kind of are more attractive. And like, maybe
they're not so nice to their girlfriends. Like
the one, the one thing is the guy says like,
like that's the one thing that the fucking jock
does wrong to his girlfriend is like when she
in the middle of the contest is like, I'm so
horny from kissing other people. Let's go fuck
right now. And he's just like. jesus you're like
a goat like relax we're like in the middle of
a thing right now why don't you wait like 20
minutes and she's like no yeah i'm gonna go get
raped by him and then she comes back and is like
i'm gonna break up with you because you were
so bad to me and it's like because he didn't
like stop in the middle of what he was doing
to go fuck you in a closet like during the day
in the middle of a contest like What even, you
know what I mean? You know what I'm, you know
what I'm realizing now too, is that in the end,
the women also get lumped in with the nerds that
like their minorities. And you know what, and,
and you know what they have in common with the
nerds. They just want sex as well. That's like,
what's so problematic about the portrayal of
women in this movie is that they're all just
like sex fiends who just want to be raped and
fucked and fondled or whatever. Like the, the
party that the nerds have with the, the, the
moo girls or whatever. Yeah. You know, so there's
a little bit of fat shaming in there, too, for
a good measure. But, like, those girls just,
like, are happy to just, like, get passed off
and have their asses squeezed by dudes and whatever.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They want to be objectified.
Fuck Poindexter for, like, no reason. He's, like,
the most, like, awkward. Which is actually one
of my favorite, like, exchanges in the whole
movie, just as far as, like, a pure enjoyment
of a line. It's just like, would you rather live
during the ascendancy of a civilization or during
its decline? Which is like, let's fuck. He's
like, you want to fuck? He's like, I don't know.
That actually really does sum it up a lot. It
works. I like it. Yeah, it really works. Yeah.
I mean, it works with the entire ascendancy and
decline of masculinity, two different types of
masculinity in the movie, which also are the
same types of masculinity that we're talking
about in 2001 and the right stuff and all the
things that we've been talking about. No, yeah,
this really is like an addendum to our 2001 conversation.
Oh, completely. It really is just like a... A
continuation of those ideals. It's the leaving
behind of the Yeagers and the championing of
the Neil Armstrongs or whatever. It's just like,
what if Neil Armstrong got to rape Yeager's wife?
Wouldn't that be so awesome? Check a movie about
that. Fuck Chuck Yeager. Fuck any of these real
men. He thinks he's so cool breaking the sound
barrier. I can sit in a cell and then fuck his
wife. I can fit. I can sit in a box all day and
then fuck his wife without her consent. That
would be my revenge. It's like the fucking grossest
movie, dude. And he deserves it. Yeah, of course.
Of course. Because the nerds deserve the win.
It's like... It's the worst version of being
self. Well, Jaeger deserves to have his wife
fucked or whatever. Yeah. He deserves to have
his wife fucked because he, what, is... too charismatic
and attractive to be competed with. So he deserves
to have his wife fucked by a troll. Like it's
just, it's like, it's just because of their deficiency.
It's just because they suck that they deserve
all of this. And that is the liberal ideology.
That's the, that's the, I am deficient. And so
I deserve all of these things to be like, and
it's, it's so gross. And I do really feel like
Revenge of the Nerds is. I'm tentative to say
it's the genesis of these ideas, but it is a
genesis of these ideas. It is definitely an early
adopter of these really, really toxic ideas of...
Well, what does the main jock say? He says like...
times are changing these nerds are a threat to
our way of life soon we'll be up to our necks
in nerd shit yeah like that shit is so great
dude because he's right like it's like like at
that point i feel so sorry for him like i feel
so sorry for them because because he he really
like is right and he sees what's happening yeah
well they're gonna rape his wife and then his
children are gonna be brought up by them showing
him pornography and they're like literally like
the nerds are taking over and destroying the
world and the future for him and everybody he
will ever care about It's like, actually, you
should nip this in the bud. Like, why are they
not killing all of the nerds? Exactly. Yeah,
yeah. All you got to do is, like, replace the
word nerd with Nazis and then it makes more sense.
Like, it's like these two Nazis show up on campus
and the jocks are like, Nazis! fuck them we gotta
get them out of there fuck those pieces of shit
you know it's just like yeah that's like essentially
the dynamic like no it actually actually literally
it literally is the dynamic and this is what
we discussed in our in our 2001 episode and i
don't even think i'd really put a button on at
the end of but like we talked about childhood's
end in the and the you know hiding hiding your
true purpose for 50 years and that you know after
the 50 years of childhood's end when they finally
reveal themselves it shows that they are actually
the worst thing they possibly could have been
you know what i mean yeah exactly if you're confused
about this go listen to our 2001 episode but
the idea i think is that like these techno utopians
The thing that they actually are is the worst
possible thing that they could be. And what they
will reveal 50 years later is that the worst
possible thing that they could be is Nazis. That
that is where they began and that's where they're
going to eventually reveal themselves. Is that,
no, this is a fascist Nazi paradigm. That's where
nerds come from. That's where the, like, that's
where the space program comes from. All of these
things extend from specifically Nazis. And I
think that in Revenge of the Nerds, you see that
Nazi paradigm come in and take over and create
this, you know, data algorithm exploitation of
women, like taking over the system thing that
the deficient people, the people who, you know,
weren't good enough to be artists. You know what
I mean? Who are like, I hate all the people who
kept me from being an artist. They're all the
ones that are deficient and I should be able
to take over and put them in camps and then I
could be the greatest. It's all this revenge,
hatred at the society that kept you down. And
why? Because you're actually not good at it.
Because you're actually deficient. And you have
terrible values. You have terrible values and
all the people who are in charge don't want you
to be in charge because you're... A piece of
shit. Yeah, yeah. What I think is interesting
is that the two main characters, Lewis and Gilbert,
they have a bit of a weird dichotomy where Lewis
is a bit more of a confident nerd. He's actually
okay with talking to people and being social.
He's perfectly happy. He's perfectly confident
in approaching the sorority girls. He's a Jewish
archetype. Asking. Yeah, and asking one out and
stuff like that. But they're so dumb that they
don't realize they're being manipulated and that
they're being set up and stuff like that. They're
pathetically stupid for most of the movie. But
then you have Gilbert, which is, I think, meant
to be more like the nice guy. And he doesn't
rape a cheerleader. He doesn't try to go for
the top of the pile. He ends up getting with
another nerd girl. But even the way he does that,
still feels so creepy like it's the scene where
she's on the computer oh she's she's also she's
also not good at computers or good at anything
either she is just deficient yeah she's not she's
not a nerd girl because she's good at anything
or smart or anything she's just like a maladjusted
person who is trying to connect to technology
out of desperation not because she has any interest
or understanding of it like you know yeah They
fall in love because of their deficiencies, you
know, the shape of water. But he, like, he comes
up behind her, and she's like, it's inhuman.
Like, why should I interface with this or whatever?
And he's like... He's like, only a human can
be inhuman. The computer's not human. And then
he goes off on this little speech about how it
gives you godlike power or something. He kind
of gives the whole treatise of why the computer
is so seductive to the nerd. Because with the
computer, I can do anything. And I can have a
godlike power and control over something. And
I don't need its consent. And yada yada. And
then he creates an animation. of like the him
and the girl like holding hands and then dancing
it's such a weird moment because it's like yeah
he can't actually ask her out he can't actually
socially like be up front about his desires he
has to do this weird like backdoor creepy thing
of like like that's another thing too like just
like the rape later in the movie i feel like
most girls in that scenario would feel really
creeped out by that way of like coming on to
them yeah you know Where you, like, you design
an image of them, like... Holding your hand.
Like, holding your hand. Falling in love with
you. Yeah, it's, like, it's fucking weird, dude.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Gilbert's the one
who gives the speech in the end, you know. And,
like, this is supposed to be such a, like, resounding
speech because the speech really is about, like...
bringing in everybody else. He's like, for anybody
who felt like they were, you know, picked on
or misunderstood or never given a chance or yada
yada, that's like him making the nerd pitch that
like, join the Nazis. For anybody who didn't
succeed under the previous paradigm. Fuck all
of them. We're all on the same side against them.
Whoever they are, they're the ones that are,
you know, intelligent enough to be there. We're
against them and we're going to tear down the
whole thing because we have technology. We have
IBM on our side and we're going to take over
and like win all whatever we want because. they'll
have no other choice. Exactly. It is an evil,
evil movie. And anybody who doesn't understand
that it's an evil movie, anybody who made this
without knowing is, I just, it's so crazy to
me. I kind of wish I had time to listen to the
commentary. Yeah, I wanted to do that last night,
too. I thought about it. Just see how these guys
talk about this movie. I know, I know. It's too
bad I didn't have that insight for this, but
whatever. Honestly, I was thinking when watching
it, I was like, yo, if you remade The Revenge
of the Nerds as an A24 horror movie right now,
it would work so well. Actually, yeah, yeah,
totally. It's one of those topical psychological
problems. It, like, basically is a horror movie.
Like, it's, like, incredibly disturbing. And
you could do it in a smarter way where, like,
what's actually really disturbing about the nerds
is that they wouldn't just, like, rape you and
you'd thank them for it. Is that, like, they
would act like the nice guy. They would seduce
you and figure out ways to, like, trick you.
And you would never really suspect that they
had this kind of evil, dark impulse within them.
they would just, like, have the calculus to manipulate
you, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is what
they've actually done to our culture. They're
way too stupid in this movie. Like, the movie,
like, it is prescient. The thing it ends up saying
is true. But, like, on a play -by -play, it's,
like, a dumb comedy that makes no sense and is
super cartoony, right? Yeah. But, like, the reality
of the situation is that, like, the nerd will
get your consent, but they're going to manipulate
you into that consent. It's going to be like
the manufacturing of consent or whatever, you
know? Maybe. I don't, I don't think that, I mean,
I think that the internet was popularized through
a lot of images of women that did not give their
consent and whatnot. No, there's that aspect
too. I just mean like the whole nice guy stereotype,
like, like the girl who's just like, I just want
to be with a nice guy, you know? But like, but
the nice guy is like, well, he's the nice guy,
but you know, not, not all nice guys are like
this, but like, A lot of the nice guys are sexually
repressed and didn't have a lot of sex. No, that's
the thing, man. I think that that's the problem
is that this movie sets up this weird binary
of nice guy where that's not what the nerds are.
And I think that's what I'm saying. As a 90s
kid, I thought, like, fuck the jocks. I like
the nerds. I like the nice guys and whatever.
Nice guy, the jocks are nicer guys than the kid
who bites other kids in eighth grade. The jocks
are nicer guys. That's why people like them.
And that's why they have a lot of friends. And
that's why, like, I mean, there are other things.
Maybe part of it has to do with them having bigger
muscles and being able to be on a sports team
or something. But that's like not that much of
a part of it. A lot of it is that they're well
-adjusted and likeable and don't need to, you
know, spy on women and sell their pictures in
order to be successful. Like they actually could
be successful at a manly enterprise or something.
Well, I guess like you were saying earlier on
that this was made by nerds and it's an unreliable
narrative. Like, isn't that like most of media
culture? Like how many jocks go out and make
movies? How many jocks go out and create the
cultural conversation? Right. You know what I
mean? And so is this even true? Like, I don't
even really remember. Like, I got picked on by
kids, but like. Like getting picked on had a
lot more to do with my deficiencies, my inability
to like cut the mustard and stuff. And I feel
like if I went back, it's like as an adult now
looking back, it's like, yeah, I could have just
like owned who I was and been confident. And
then they probably would have respected me for
that. Right, right. But I think the part of it
is that you were you were seduced by a like a
Hollywood paradigm of I want to be an outsider.
I am better because I am outsider. Because I
don't fit in, I am better. I am better because
I am against the thing. And it's not like punk
rock. That's the big difference. It's not like
punk rock where it's like, fuck this paradigm
for these reasons or whatever. The nerd thing
is the Nazi thing. It is, I am deficient, but
I deserve. And that is it, you know? And I will
do by any means necessary or whatever, not the
black struggle by any means necessary, but the
Nazi struggle. They're tying those together,
not me. But yeah, they're literally willing to
do anything, put whoever they want to in camps,
like to steal their women and take the means
of production of the next generation and blah,
blah, blah. And it's... Only through these subversive
and disgusting means, as opposed to through seduction
and consent. Absolutely. But not only did we
buy into this idea of how being the outsider
is cool, but we've been inundated with countless
images and films of the jocks just being these
boars who are shitty. And honestly, in high school,
I didn't have that experience at all. Like, I
don't remember ever being picked on by a jock.
I don't remember ever being picked on by someone
who was in a sports team. Like, they just left
us alone. Like, they had their own thing going
on, you know? It's literally like the scene in
Mad Men where Don Draper's in the elevator with...
Ginsberg, Michael Ginsberg. What's his name?
With Ginsberg, and he says, like, I feel sorry
for you, and then Don's like, I don't think about
you at all. Right, right. You know, like, that's...
And that's literally after he says you're a jock
in a fancy suit. I mean, that's the whole paradigm
of that episode is Michael Ginsberg being like,
oh, the only reason you got here is because you're
fucking attractive. You're not even smart. I
mean, it wasn't even Ginsberg. It was the other
guy. It was the Jewish guy. I mean, they're both
Jewish guys. It was the other shorter guy who
was like, you're just like, you can't. never
mind we're not gonna get into that whole episode
of madman but yeah the point is an interesting
parallel yeah yeah well well now that we've gotten
off topic you want to move on to the next topic
yeah i mean i was gonna say like like going back
to the thing about like thinking about revenge
of the nerds as a horror movie i then i thought
like oh that's already kind of happened and it's
the fly by david cronenberg Yeah, man, that's
the truth. That's the truth. So you want to take
a little break, then move on to that? Yeah, let's
get to that next. All right, back from the break.
We're back. So The Fly, we got the A24 horror
of Revenge of the Nerds sort of thing going on.
Yeah, in some ways. It's like, yeah, I wouldn't
say The Fly is like... incredibly preoccupied
with that narrative but it's so much a part of
this movie whether intentionally or not because
i think like cronenberg obviously like if you're
just going to go with authorial intent and stuff
cronenberg was very much making a movie about
like someone dealing with like a debilitative
disease and uh aging and stuff like that and
like That's like what he's kind of like openly
said about the movie. And even when it came out,
like there was tons of people because it came
out in 86. You know, it's kind of the height
of the AIDS epidemic or during the AIDS epidemic
at the very least. And a lot of people thought
this movie was about AIDS and stuff. And he said
that that was not the intent, but that if people
have that outlook on it, he's totally fine with
that, which basically just gives you. carte blanche
to interpret Cronenberg's work however you like.
He's given you permission to do it. There's a
lot of stuff going on in this movie that goes
far beyond just this narrative about aging or
having a terminal cancer or whatever. Yeah, no,
sure. And that is the nerd aspect and the jock
nerd dynamic and the seduction of the woman to
the nerd side of things and all that's there.
No, I totally agree. But I also think that part
of the thing is, to me, Cronenberg is one of
these directors who makes the same movie over
and over and over. And they're all different,
and many of them, I think, are great. In fact,
most of them, I think, are great. I really like
a lot of the ones that people don't. So yeah,
I think Cronenberg's one of these guys who, even
though many of his movies are very different,
they're always on. the same subjects. And I think
that the subject is almost always man and technology.
Basically, how technology is perverting humanity,
our desires, our, you know, our bodies. Sure.
But it's almost always that exact same subject.
And I think that The Fly is one of the... you
know, most direct ones of those where we're watching
technology actually sort of pervert this man's
body and desires and all of these things and
him become sort of a new being. But I think that
that transformation, while in the movie, the
catalyst for this is this fly getting in the
machine. I don't think that he is becoming a
fly. I don't think that what we're talking about
has anything really to do with insects. I think
his conversation about insect politics is not
about insects. I think that all of this is about
technology and data and binary coding and nerd
shit, basically. Yeah. I mean, like one thing
I thought when it was over is like, you know,
when he has this is during the insects politics
speech. But when he says. I was a fly who dreamed
he was a man, but now that dream is dead or over
or whatever. Yeah, and loved it. And loved it,
yeah. I was a fly who dreamed he was a man and
loved it, and now that dream is over. I was thinking,
like, really, like, the fly is just a stand -in
for, like, the machine or whatever. Like, it's
not about insects exactly. That it's, like, really
what's happening is he's, like, merging with
the machine. Well, because what the machine is
doing is it's creating an interpretation of himself.
So he's becoming a simulacrum. So he, what he's
a machine, it's a machine who dreamt it was a
man. And now that dream is over. Right. But like
he even merges with the machine quite literally
at the very end. Right. That's like the final
moment. Right. And the, and the what chair or
something? No, it's just the, he's like, he's
standing like halfway out of the pod. It says
what Brundlefly is combining with, though, on
the screen at one point, I'm pretty sure. It
says Brundlefly and... It doesn't say Antelepod.
Or it doesn't say Andor. I think it says Andor.
I don't know. I feel like it just said Antelepod,
but whatever. He gets fused with a section of
the machine itself. And he comes out as this
weird fly -human robot. hybrid thing all these
tubes sticking out of him and all this like right
you know at that point he asks for his own death
right but yeah i just think like to have like
a very literal representation of him merging
with the machine at the very end i think lends
to the entire narrative of just like that's what's
been happening the whole time yeah but it was
also the first time they have sex um before he
even goes through the transporter something gets
stuck in his back And it's a chip. No, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the first thing.
He gets a chip plugged into him. That's the first
thing that sort of penetrates him. And, you know,
that's the first place that the fly hairs come
out of. It is, yeah. And so even though it's
the transporter that's doing this and whatever,
like there's an emphasis on this is coming from
the scar of the, you know, technology penetrating
you and becoming a part of you. And also the
actual literal, like, The process by which the
transporter works, the sci -fi idea behind it
or whatever, is that this is a computer that
is transporting this through downloading it into
data and then reassembling it later. And so there's
the whole part of the movie about the meat making
him crazy or whatever. The flesh. The flesh would
make you crazy. Long live the new flesh. That
is about the machine not being able to interpret
reality in the way that a human mind can and
stuff. And that this transporting it into binary
has lost the essence of life. And then he feels
like he figures that out or whatever and it works
or something. But we know that it doesn't work.
There's something that's wrong with it or whatever.
And yes, in this movie, there is the catalyst
of the fly that shows the bug. in the machine,
the bug in the system. But it's really a stand
-in for the bug in the system. It's the glitch.
It's the thing. It's the thing that can't interpret
reality. I mean, we talked about this in 2001,
but downloading reality into binary coding, like
that is the idea that you can reproduce reality
through binary coding, through ones and zeros,
is a techno -utopian sort of transhumanist idea.
And it's, I think that Cronenberg is saying that
it's incorrect that when you start with this
human in this movie and then he becomes this
transhumanist idea, what are all the things that
change with that? You know what I mean? That's
the thing that I think is so interesting and
so connected to Revenge of the Nerds. This is
this guy becoming basically his work, becoming
this machine, becoming his, you know, this nerd
focus. And what it is, just like this singular
focus on a thing. That keeps him from being able
to have, you know, normal relationships with
people outside of this. I mean, he does have
the swag. He's got a little bit of the Lewis
swag that Robert Carradine from Revenge of the
Nerds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lizzie McGuire's dad.
Yeah, he does. He's got a little bit of that
Jewish sort of swag. He's a little cute. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I mean, everybody talks about how
sexy he is in this movie or whatever. I think
he looks kind of weird, but, like, I'm not attracted
to men in the way that, like. He has a great
body and stuff. Yeah, yeah. He's very fit. He's
got the great Jeff Goldblum chest that he sports
at Jurassic Park as well. Totally, totally. He's
a beautiful, very fit archetype of suave, Jewish,
intellectual. But he is in many ways a nerd.
That's like very much. He's coded as a nerd.
He does not seem like the type of guy who's confident
with women. And the first time that he has sex,
I mean, that first sex scene is disgusting. We
only kind of see the very end of it or whatever,
but he's just going to... Just, like, humping
her. It's really, like, gross, like, nerd sex,
you know? He seems to be like sexually repressed,
like he's not having a lot of sex. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, exactly. And he's just kind of like finally
getting this one nut out. It's a wonderful set
of circumstances, yeah, that this girl has taken
an interest in him. It's because he's put all
of his eggs into this basket of this thing that
he's produced and then this thing that he's produced
is enough to attract this woman's interest. It's
certainly not his swagger or his looks that attract
her initially, exactly. She's not even really
impressed by his piano playing when she first
walks in. Right. And he also, he scams her. He
scams her. This is like, he does basically just
like fucking, what's the, like, manosphere. pickup
artist shit to like scam this woman into coming
to a secondary location or something like you
know i mean he scams her into coming back to
his apartment and then be interested in his thing
when he knows that he's not going to let her
write about this thing in order to then trick
her into being the person who writes about this
thing for him and becomes his like secretary
and his girl and is what i like you know what
i mean well that's that's the point right is
that i think her like supposed attraction to
him is like something that is retroactively justified
because of her interest in the story Exactly.
Like he offers something to her that she, that
will benefit her. Right. And her career and whatever
he gives her. She may or may not even be interested
in him outside of the story. I mean, once the
story is done, this is the best way to get this
story is to sleep with the guy and videotape
the things and do whatever. Like this is the
greatest story of a lifetime, but. It doesn't
really have anything to do with him or his anything.
It's just that he's presented this to her and
that she is accepting that and giving back to
him what he expects. You know what I mean? And
it doesn't really bode well for her character
either because she ends up kind of just seeming
like an opportunistic person who doesn't really
care about him and stuff like that. They're both
doing it for their own personal benefits. Of
course. The sort of like caveat and context for
why she's doing it is because she just got out
of a relationship with a guy who's like the exact
opposite of him. Well, the other thing is we
don't even know how recently they've gotten out
of this relationship or if they are even out
of this relationship. I mean, she says, why are
you here and whatever? Like she's mad at him,
but he still has her keys. And then she's like,
give them back. And he's like, no, I think I'll
keep them. And she doesn't demand them back.
And I think that when you see her later, And
Brundlefly is about to like rape this woman in
his apartment and impregnate her and whatever.
She's like, no, get out of here. I'll take care
of this. She is strong. She is so strong. She
can deal with Brundlefly who can literally break
her in half. Like she's not afraid to talk to
this man or tell him to give her fucking keys
back. No, she's playing a fucking game. Like
this is, this is the thing. Like this guy, exactly.
This guy is behaving in a way that we see as
like totally toxic male behavior. And like, he's
being jealous. Like he's very jealous and he's
throwing temper tantrums, but like, it's quite
possible. This is his like girlfriend of like
three years who like, found this story, got in
a fight with him on Friday, and then is like,
no, I'm going to sleep over at his house. And
he's just like, are you fucking serious? And
I'm like, yes, I watched you all night and whatever.
It's like, yeah, he's acting crazy. But like,
do we have context to know how crazy he's acting?
Like, you know what I mean? Like his jealousy
and his behavior and his desire to control her.
Like, yeah, this is toxic male behavior. But
I think that she, if it was. threatening to her,
would be perfectly able to handle it. And there's
nothing in the movie that makes me think that
she couldn't kick this guy out of her house,
take the keys, and be like, fuck you. In fact,
she walks all over him the entire movie. He sent
her to this thing as a journalist, and she's
not going to write the story? What are you talking
about? No, I'm just going to leave and write
it. myself like that is illegal it's not and
he's just like okay i'll let you do it he's only
like really pig -headed in his rhetoric and stuff
and the way he talks and like it but like he's
so supportive of her and her career and her future
like the only thing that he does is he is jealous
about the fact that she is sleeping with this
guy who is her story that she may or may not
even care about and he thinks that this nerd
is dangerous and that like he's actually concerned
about her or whatever and yes he's jealous too
And it's because he wants to possess her, sure.
But it's because he wants to possess her in a
way that is not nearly as toxic as what Brundlefly
wants to do. You know what I mean? Sure. And
this is the thing. Well, Brundlefly wants to
put her through the teleporter. Exactly. He wants
to merge with her. He wants to bring her into
the cult. He wants to merge with her, yeah. And
by the end, he wants to become one with her.
In order to. And the baby. I mean, yeah. And
the baby. I mean, he wants the most total toxic
male ownership of her body. He wants to actually
be it. I mean, he is more toxic than any jock
archetype could ever be. And it seems like at
first, like, oh, he's not threatening. He's a
nerd. He's sweet. He's like, you know, he's not
like the guy that I was just with who, you know,
wants to control me and wants to. It's like,
no, no, no. This guy. wants to control you like
that other guy was just a man and he had testosterone
and sorry he had testosterone and was upset that
you were fucking somebody else right after you
broke up or whatever and who is actually very
dangerous and trying to hurt you like that's
that's what he did wrong what brundlefly is doing
wrong is insane but that is exactly the same
as revenge of the nerds yeah he becomes a he
becomes a literal monster, you know, and a literal
monster who's like losing his mind and would
kill her. Yeah. Or like, you know, merge with
her or whatever it is. It's just like, that is
like the nerd, just like without consent, taking
what he thinks he deserves. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever
to justify his own bullshit deficiency. Yeah.
To try to fill in for his deficiency. Like, yeah.
Yeah. And then the, the moment that status, because
obviously. Like, the moment you realize, Daph,
this is a really good dude is, like, when she
reveals to him that she's pregnant with Seth's
kid. And he's just like, what do you want to
do? Right. Like, he's, like, absolutely just
wanted to, like, there's no better test for,
like, a good dude than, like, giving him the
news that you're pregnant. With somebody else's
kid. with somebody else's kid and him just being
like well what do you want to do he's not like
immediately like you need to get an abortion
no he's like i i'm here for you whatever you
need at the moment's notice and like i want to
do it right now in the middle of the night like
okay i'll i'll like i'll figure it out he's like
i'll make the calls yeah like i'll do it and
yeah that is like what makes it so connected
to revenge of the nerds as well as just this
whole jock nerd dynamic and how the nerds just
end up being so much more evil or whatever. Right,
because of their deficiencies and their need
to correct for that deficiency. And they use
this cover of this nerd thing that we've accepted
as non -threatening, but it is the most threatening.
I mean, it is insect politics. That's, you know
what I mean? Yeah, it's insect politics, yeah.
It's the computer's interpretation of humanity.
It's... Insects don't have politics. I'd like
to be the first insect politician. They're very
brutal. I mean, this is fascism. This is what
we're talking about. It's IBM and technology
taking over politics. And seeing that taking
over a body and seeing the interests and the
desires and the perversions that come from that.
his like weird self -aggrandizing, like God -like
thing in the middle is crazy. And it's one of
my favorite part. Like it really feels like acid
to me too at that point where he's just like
so convinced of some really abstract reality
and his own greatness in a way that you can't
describe to another person. Her trying to listen
to him when he's like, like falling apart and
trying to talk about the most abstract stuff
is like amazing. And that's like, that's like,
It's part of it that's done really well in the
original Fly, too, where as he's deteriorating,
he's writing on the wall, and the handwriting
gets crazier and crazier and whatnot. But in
this movie, he brings, like, Cronenberg takes
all the aspects of that original movie and brings
so much more, like, just depth to it. Just really
just depth. Because, I mean, the original movie
is very much about a nerdy guy, though the archetype
doesn't exist in all of these sort of... external
like the the larger connections here don't really
exist but it is that type of guy who's like very
obsessed with his work charisma yeah but he does
he has charisma he seems like he's a handsome
charismatic dude it's true it's true he's not
he's not as crazy like this is like the thing
that really stood out to me as being super different
about both of them but just like what what is
the character's name in the original it's like
arnold or uh andre andre like so like in the
original andre Basically, in the original Fly,
the film doesn't really show Andre as some kind
of flawed character who has a deficiency. He's
being perverted by his work, though. Yeah, but
ultimately, when the experiment goes wrong, he
admits that it was a failure and it has to be
destroyed along with him with it. Whereas in
Cronenberg's, Seth bends over backwards to justify...
the catastrophe over and over right right at
first it's like wow this is fucked up something
went wrong but as he starts to morph more he's
like actually you know what i think i'm actually
more powerful than something went incredibly
right yeah yeah this is actually right i created
a gene splicer like He's constantly justifying
and rationalizing. But isn't that basically Revenge
of the Nerds, right? Where it's like, I have
this deficiency, and then it's like, no, no,
my deficiency makes me great. I'm part of this
thing, and I'm better than all of the jocks because
of my deficiency, and it's a superpower that
I'm deficient. Yeah, I don't think the original
Fly is actually very critical of technology and
progress. In fact, in the end, the speech that
Vincent Price gives... is essentially like, you
know, to make an omelet, you got to break some
eggs. The problem isn't progress itself. It's
the sacrifice needed to fuel it. Right. I think
he's basically, he's a nuclear scientist in this
movie, right? And we're talking about like, well,
we need the nuclear program. This is important.
However, it's a dangerous job and these people
might get radiation or they might, you know what
I mean? Sure, but it's a necessary evil, so to
speak. And so the 1958 version of The Fly really
shows a culture that has a near ubiquitous trust
in progress. Despite anything bad that comes
out of it, it's ultimately good. Whereas Cronenberg's
86 version, I feel like is very... wary and critical
of progress and technology I mean it brings in
the Cronenberg thing that's in all of his every
single one of his movies about technology perverting
the human spirit and our desires and our relationships
to each other and isolating us and creating making
us into technology but I think I think yeah for
sure the original I think does have that too
though where by becoming the fly I mean it does
still have the it is the bug in the system thing
A lot of the actual structure of the movie is
very much still there. But we don't see Andre
as this disgusting monster who should have been
smashed before he created this thing. In the
end, this thing was too powerful for the world.
So we don't want this thing. It is anti -technology
in the end in some ways. It is the nuclear program
thing where it is critical of that. But I just
think that gets undone by what Vincent Price
says in the very end to his son, like justifying
the sacrifice your father made for this kind
of progress or discovery. But Vincent Price also
like doesn't. I guess he knows the whole story
at that point. It's a weird ending because I
really think in some ways it undoes it. The big
thing is in movies of this era, you're talking
about the code and stuff, the Hays Code. All
of these movies have to have big summaries that
undo all of the nuances of the movie. You're
going to have a movie that's talking about how
sick it is to be a gangster. you know, kill people
and fuck women and blah, blah, blah. And then
in the end, it's going to be like, and it never
pays to be a gangster. It's like, well, yes,
it does undo it. But like the whole point of
the movie is talking about like how awesome it
is to be a criminal. And in this movie, I feel
like a lot of the point of the movie is criticizing
the nuclear program and what it's doing to this
person. And like, I do think that like, really,
like I kind of felt like this original flyer,
like was really disturbing and stomach churning
to me. in a way, even that the remake kind of
almost wasn't. You know what I mean? It's almost
the way that I feel about Kubrick's Lolita versus,
what's his name, the guy who did all the pervy
movies? I don't know, the remake of Lolita? Something
that perverse being in a movie this not perverse,
like this sort of stagey and contained, makes
it feel really disturbing. It stands out in a
weird way. I think that that guy standing, just
Andre standing with the sheet over his head and
not talking to his wife is so scary. It's really,
it's like stomach churningly scary because you
know something happened to his face that he can't
speak. that he's not showing or like, it's, it's,
it's really, it's really scary. I think actually
like, yeah. And when he's like the little fly,
like stuck in the web at the end, yelling, help
me is like, it's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. And
then, and I also like that they just killed it.
It's yeah. Yeah. That was actually him. And it's
like, Oh, this is so horrifying that like, it
should not exist, kill it. And then, Oh man,
it's so sad that he had to like, it's very, It's
very, it's depressing. It's a depressing movie.
And I think it's really about the nuclear program
and the damage that it's doing to like scientists
and people through it's the transmission of the
work itself to the human and making them like
bug people. Yeah, I think that's a part of it.
But personally, my read on the original Fly,
like I kind of felt the cornerstone of the movie
and its themes and what it was really talking
about was like, I kind of feel like it was a
domestic drama. The way it's told, too, where,
like, the murder happens at the beginning and
it's all unraveling as a sort of mystery. In
the beginning, what you're sort of presented
with is, like, this wife just murdered her husband.
So she's, like, insane, right? Like, I feel like
it, like, plays with this trope of, like, the
insane wife. And she murders her husband, but
then when you hear the story, what you learn
is that her husband had become a monster because
of how obsessed he became with his work and how
neglectful that made him toward his family. If
you just take out the whole sci -fi fly narrative,
you essentially just have this narrative about
an abusive, work -obsessed husband who drove
his wife. Right. Right. Right. And I think that's,
like, what I find really interesting about the
first movie is to take this sort of trope of,
like, the hysterical, crazy, like, female who
kills her husband and then, like, creating a
justification for that because it was actually
the man's fault. He was the real monster. It
was his choice. And she was his fucking... It
was his choice, yeah. Yeah, she stood by him.
She did every, like, she was his bottom bitch.
You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was,
like, the actual, she did every single thing
without question. She didn't ask him to take
off his hat. She didn't, like, it's like, do
not ask me this. Knock these many times. Do this.
Like, I cannot show you this. And she didn't,
like, she was totally submissive and the perfect
wife by 50s standards. And loyal. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. It's a very different character than Ronnie
in Cronenberg's remake. Of course. Veronica.
Much more of a girl boss archetype. The strong,
independent girl boss woman. And that's what
I mean. I think the gender relations or the male
-female relationship dynamics in each movie also
really speak to the times that they were made.
Absolutely. Because, I mean, again, like we were
talking about in Revenge of the Nerds, like,
who is it who decides what a successful masculine
archetype is, is the women. This is part of the
thing, that these are defined. I mean, Brumdell
Fly's validation comes from Veronica. And he
needs her. Like, he wouldn't be doing any of
this if it wasn't for her. Like, he needs an
observer to tell this story and everything. No,
totally. And I think having an abortion as part
of the plot is so intense. Because just like
in the first Fly, if you take out the Fly sci
-fi elements of the movie, then in Cronenberg's,
you are also dealing with this kind of story
where a woman leaves a man because she finds
him to be pig -headed or arrogant or somewhat
insufferable. He's a jock. He's a jock. Yeah.
And then she gets with this nerd, this nice guy
who's like, seems like he's a genius. And it's
like, there's so much to sort of like appreciate
about him. But then like, he's actually a monster.
He's a true fascist. He believes in insect politics.
Then realizes she's pregnant with his child and
wants to abort it. Like, it's so fucking like
intense, dude. And he creates an iconography
out of my body. The scene where she gives birth
to the maggot or whatever is such an incredible
depiction of the anxiety of being impregnated
by a guy who turns out to not be the guy you
thought he was. It's just like that's a feminine
experience that is the iconography of that is
being created on screen there. I love Veronica.
She's like one of the great female characters.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She's very strong. And it's
a very pro -abortion sort of a movie. Pro -choice,
yeah. Pro -choice. Yes, yes. But it's also shown
in this like really horrible, horrifying, triggering
way, you know? Yeah, because it is like, it is
traumatic. It's not necessarily like... It's
not the solution that's beautiful and everybody's
happy. It's like this... No, exactly. It's horrible.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's even still conflicted
about it, even though she knows what he's become.
Like, you know, it's... Yeah, exactly. And then
once she actually sees him, she's like, no, I'm
not conflicted anymore. I need it tonight. But
she can't tell him. She can't like bring herself
to tell him either. Yeah. Yeah. Which is another
big anxiety. Like that's another depiction of
just like the anxiety a woman goes through when
it's like, it's her body, her choice, and she
can just hide it from him and make the choice.
Right. Right. But like having to go through that
moment of like, am I going to tell him, can I
deal with his input on this? Right. And it's
just like, you know what? No, I don't want to
deal with bundle flies. Cause he's a fucking
monster. And, like, yeah, it turns out, like,
of course he's going to want to keep the baby.
Then, like, you see the whole, like, this great
depiction of the anxiety and fear of a man whose,
like, child is going to be aborted against his
will, who could be, like, the only thing that's
left of him. Right. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, I've become a monster, but there's still
hope for my kid or whatever, which gets a little
bit muddy when he says we're just all going to
merge together or whatever. That's his like insane
solution to this terrible problem or whatever.
Yeah, but that's also the most, you know, like
we're going to move to a ranch and you're not
going to talk to anybody else and you're going
to do what I say and whatever. Like it's being
a cult leader type of masculinity. It's like
I'm going to have six wives. You're going to
be one of them. You're not going to talk to anybody.
It's going to be like whatever because I need
more in my brood. You're right. That merging
works as a metaphor for her never having agency
again. No agency whatsoever. Exactly. just a
trad wife existence or whatever. Yeah, but when
her first boyfriend, Stathis, is trying to keep
her keys, like, that is a, you know, taking ownership
over her life thing. It's crossing a barrier
and trying to control her or whatever. But that
is in a, like, masculine -feminine aggression,
whatever, relationship in which, like, Veronica
does have agency and, like, totally could...
play it differently like you know what i mean
she's like he's taking a shower in there it's
not like she goes and calls the police or like
is actually like get out get out get out it's
just kind of like no she's like oh you're here
again yeah well this is not cool it's not okay
i would agree with all this yeah yeah yeah very
very different there she's dealing with than
what she's dealing with brundle fly who actually
literally is he might kill her He might not let
her go home ever again. He does not respect her
or her autonomy in any way because it is all
about Brundlefly and what he is becoming. But
I think before she has any relationship with
Seth and she doesn't realize quite how bad and
monstrous and controlling a person could be,
I'm sure Stathis comes off as feeling like, annoying
and controlling and like just not something she
wants because she is like she is a strong career
woman and also like he's her boss so there is
like a weird power dynamic thing there where
like she ended up sleeping with her boss and
that gives him some kind of questionable you
know problematic power over her right and yeah
like and like the keys thing and whatever like
and i think as far as she's concerned based on
the experiences she's had in her life thus far,
this is not necessarily a totally healthy relationship.
But also, let's look at their work dynamic, though.
Let's look at their work dynamic. He is her boss,
and that gives her all the power. That's the
thing. When we actually see what happens is she
goes to the dinner and meets Seth, and then she
doesn't have to write the article because she
can just tell her boss, no, I'm not writing the
article, and what is he going to do? Say, like,
I'm going to lay down the law. No, you have to
write this article. No, he's like, well, I care
about you. I care about you. OK, this is important
for you and whatever. Like, you know, she is.
I mean, he does. He does try. You know, he does
try to leverage that. He does say, like, I sent
you there. It's my story. But like, he does.
He tells her the way that things actually are.
And then he's like, fine. Like, just like do
whatever you want. And he's obviously not concerned
about the story. He doesn't really care about
any of that. He just cares about her. He eventually
cares about the story somewhat. Well, yeah, but
no, not nearly as much as he cares about her.
Exactly. That's absolutely true. And she cares
about the story more than she cares about him,
I think. And I don't think Veronica cares. Like
once he starts turning into the fly and like,
it becomes too much. Like when she sees him,
when his ear falls off and he's puking on the
food or whatever, she's like, this is, this has
gone too far. Like, this is too much. Like the
story is not worth this anymore. I don't know.
I think, I think the story is still, she, she
wants, she wants to witness it because she wants
to come out with a story about this guy who deteriorated
and whatever. I think she's still in for the
story. She does have a deny of the call and a
return. And the return happens not on her volition,
but because Seth begs her to come back. She does
give up on it. She is kind of like, fuck this.
But she can't totally forget about it. He still
is like that old... fling she had that she still
thinks about and like it still has all this kind
of energy and intrigue connected to it where
like she can't not answer his call the moment
he calls she's just like seth he doesn't like
say his name or whatever she just like knows
it's him right she's been waiting for the call
and whatever so like there's a part of her there
that like still wants that but i don't know it
does get to a point where like she's like i'm
in danger and this might not be worth it you
know like i'm gonna back off and right not gonna
like willingly be a part of this anymore right
right and you know that just kind of continues
the longer it goes on because like once she finds
out about the baby too she's like i don't want
this in my body i don't want anything to do with
this shit right i want this to be over you know
like it's i don't even want to tell him i had
the baby like i just like want to be out of this
fucking relationship you know right right But
he just chases her. At that point, he's the one
who's just pursuing her. Because she has something
he wants. Because, yeah, she has something he
wants. Or that he thinks he owns, which is her
and her body and her child. And he thinks he
owns it more than he ever did before because
he is so horribly deficient and monstrous and
has this whole cognitive dissonance about...
all of that you know just like who he even is
and he knows his mind is slipping just like andre
in the original right you know right this new
personality is taking over and eventually like
i will hurt you that was the whole insect politics
thing yeah yeah like a very long -winded way
of just saying like pretty soon i won't be a
human anymore right and like you will be in danger
and again like this is almost like if you're
if you if you want to just think of these characters
just as archetypes or whatever we're just talking
about like the archetype of masculinity during
the time of Revenge of the Nerds, basically.
We're talking about like, we're turning away
from this idea of masculinity that was the jock
and the, you know, and we're turning towards
this new one. And after some time, we're going
to realize that this thing is actually the most
monstrous possible thing. And we're just still
in the process of realizing, I guess, you know,
40 years later, but that really, as soon as we're,
As soon as we're embracing Revenge of the Nerds,
as soon as that happens, that's the infiltration
of the fly into the system. That's when he starts
becoming Brundlefly. And then the nerd just gets
worse and worse until it creates the internet
and it takes over. And then you've got these
weird nerds in control of the world with their
harems and whatever. Yeah, that's all there.
I also think another thing that's there that's
really pressing and interesting too is just how
Seth made the machine. He didn't build any of
the components. Yeah, this is one of my favorite
parts that I didn't realize until this most recent
viewing. Yeah, he's an AI model, essentially.
He's an AI model, but he's also a... He sees
the music. He's like an Oppenheimer. Exactly.
He's not doing any of the specific things, but
he's an Oppenheimer bringing it all together.
And he equates him with Oppenheimer and equates
him with Einstein. Yeah, the clothing thing.
He wears the same thing every day. Yeah, which
he got from Einstein. We all know he got it from
Einstein. It's part of the culture, but... He
says, I got it from Einstein, so that it underlines
the connection to Einstein. The connections to
Einstein and Oppenheimer and his Judaism itself
and whatever are all very interesting, I think.
But in a way, I also think it lends to this idea
that he doesn't have an original thought, like
this AI idea that he's just taking everything
that he is from elsewhere. Well, that's true,
too. That's true, too. He's simply combining
other people's work. He's not actually really
much of a human being. He's not really much of
a person. Right. Well, that's really the thing.
It's like the original fly is this person seeing
what they, you know, have dedicated their lives
to then take over them and, you know, become
their destruction. And that's absolutely what
this is doing too, just with so much more nuance.
It is his work, his interests, his ideas. The
nerds that's a sweet guy, you know what I mean?
Who will take you out on a date and give you
a flower and whatever and then go home on his
computer and do his job. What his job is, is
something that is so indefensively evil. Yeah,
I mean, like, there's nuance to science, you
know? Like, I was just having this argument the
other night with my partner and stuff. But, like,
I was saying, like, I hate scientists and stuff.
And, like, you know, maybe that's kind of just,
like, a really broad, stupid thing to say. But
it was like this whole conversation that kind
of boiled down to this idea that's like, yeah,
I understand that scientists cure cancer. I understand
that there's like so many things that science
and progress and technology that they've brought
about that have been like incredibly beneficial
to people. But then it always reminds me of like
the Ted Kaczynski manifesto where it's like,
yeah, but like it's always this one good beneficial
thing that justifies all the bad things that
come with it. Of course. Or whatever. And it's
like the trolley car problem where you're going
to run over five people or one mother and her
baby or whatever. And it's like, what's more
moral or whatever? Is it moral to cure people's
cancer if it also brings about, you know, COVID
or whatever? Just like horrible diseases that
are made in labs that will like become a pandemic
or whatnot. Or is it moral to create renewable
energy sources with nuclear power? if that's
also going to create nuclear weapons that incinerate
people. Like, I don't really know. You know what
I mean? Like, it's a kind of... But also, it
also requires a level of fascistic control to
control things like that. You know what I mean?
When technology is so dangerous on an individual
level... then you need to have control over that
technology, which demands a more controlling
political paradigm and whatever. You know what
I mean? Let's say technology gets to a point
where anybody could easily make a nuclear weapon.
Let's say we're there. Then technology needs
to be controlled at a level where our individual
lives need to be monitored. You know what I mean?
The more technology gets, then the more control
is necessary to keep us safe from that technology
in other people's hands, which therefore means
more oppression and less freedom. The benefit
is canceled out in other ways, in social ways,
in the ways of the lives that we live. living
a life in a cubicle was just not something that
people 100 years ago would be able to do without
harming themselves. And I guess today we aren't
either. Everybody's on, you know. weed gummies
all day and you know antidepressants and whatever
else just like everybody's everybody's just zonked
out all the time i mean they don't even need
that they got their fucking phones to give them
their dopamine hits every five minutes or whatever
like people actually are just like becoming zombies
to live in this paradigm in a way that we've
already talked about it's just like not even
interesting to talk about it anymore because
it's just so obvious that it's like yeah no phones
are making people zombies i get it dude like
it's move on yeah but it's But I think it's our
own anecdotal experience and our own selfish
desires and needs and the people that we personally
care about that continue to justify that progress.
I mean, I went through a very specific example
of that, which was the birth of my son. Without
science and technology and all that progress,
my son would be dead. He was born with a medical,
biological deficiency that would have killed
him. if it hadn't been for surgery and yeah,
just all these fancy ass medical systems we have
now, even like 50 years ago, he would have been
dead, you know? Totally. So it's like, how do
I fucking square that? You know, it's just, it's
hard, you know, and people who like who their
loved ones were, had cancer and were saved by
new technologies and drugs and whatever. It's
like, It's really hard to tell a person like
that, fuck scientists and fuck all progress and
yada yada, you know? Well, yeah, but see our
conversation about AI for more. You know what
I mean? I mean, AI, artificial intelligence,
Kubrick and Spielberg's AI, where, yeah, it's
because these technologies actually do give us
these conveniences and these benefits and these
things that we then, you know, buy into them
and then are seduced by the emotional narrative
that comes with them and whatnot and feel indebted
to. Yeah, which is what the original fly really
represents, just like that, at least in the end,
if we're talking about the code and the Vincent
Price. or whatever. It's just like this idea
that's like, yeah, I mean, bad things happen,
but ultimately it's good. You know, ultimately
it's good for us. Right. And it's important to
get out there when you're trying to, you know,
get a bunch of Nazis into outer space. Exactly.
Yeah. So it's a very, it's much more propagandic
movie. That's the thing is I feel like Cronenberg's
fly is so much more in touch with reality. Like,
and yeah, you said depth and nuance. Um, the
original fly is actually a really good movie.
And it's interesting for a lot of reasons, but
it has a messy moral center or something. It's
a lot more propagandic in a lot of ways. Yeah.
I also feel like because of that, it doesn't
end up having all of its themes come together
in the end in a way that puts a real button on
it. You know what I mean? Exactly, yeah. It's
much more close to the original short story,
The First Fly. Is there an original story? Yeah,
I mean, both movies are based on the original
short story. But yeah, the original short story
of The Fly plays out pretty much like the first
movie. You know, like a wife kills her husband
under a printing press, and the guy's brother
and the cops question her, and she tells the
story, and there's still the thing with the son
and the fly with the white head, and all that
stuff is all part of the original short story.
Interesting. Interesting. And so Cronenberg's
is much more of a subversion. They eliminate
the whole fly with the right head in the Cronenberg
thing. Yeah, which I really love. I think like
the whole idea that they're just like fused at
like a genetic level that then like... But there
are two of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that,
yeah, like it gets expressed as like a kind of
cancer and whatever, which is what Cronenberg
was talking about. And I do think the movie works
in that way as well. Like, I think that the scene
where, the scene where Seth finally starts to
notice that he's transforming in the mirror and
he like breaks off his fingernails and stuff
like that is one of the most fucking disturbing
scenes ever. So iconic. And like really also
is a perfect iconic representation of like something
that we've all gone through. Right. You know,
like when you're in the bathroom and you notice
some weird thing on your skin, you're like, oh,
what the fuck is that? what's going on? Like
just kind of like anxiety over your body changing
and like aging and having body, body dysmorphia.
Yeah. Becoming gross. Your hair is falling out.
And you're just like, I remember like the first
time I really noticed that I was balding. It
was horrifying. Like it was a really like disturbing
moment that like is so connected to that scene
in the fly. And yeah, like that has nothing to
do with technology or anything else. It's just
like, there is a, just like, There's a body horror
anxiety element to just like aging and how disgusting
that is and how like scared that makes you about
death and just like the disintegration of yourself
and whatever. Totally. Totally. I just don't
think that's, I don't think that ends up being
like the main point of the movie or what it's
really about, even though that's what Kramer
telegraphs. I think that once you start dealing
with the immediacy of mortality, then what becomes
more important is this idea of what it is you're
actually contributing or leaving behind, the
legacy concept, I think. No, that's true. The
idea of the point of life, you know what I mean,
then has to become sort of present. a couple
of days to no, that's why, that's why he doubles
down. Yeah. Like, cause he's like more, he sees
his mortality. He sees that he's, he's going
to die essentially. He's like, either he's going
to lose his identity within the fly or whatever
it is. But like, that's, they're actually, I
also read a thing that like essentially, um,
Seth Brundle goes through the five stages of
grief, which is totally true. Like it's very
like by the book. you know, like denial, bargaining,
anger, like all those things. Like that's, he
goes through every single one of those stages.
And that is, that's also like a really, like
that's such a film school -y kind of like generic
thing to do, but like you don't notice it when
you're watching the movie because it's done so
smoothly and well. And it feels real. Like every
time you see Brundlefly and he's developed and
he's kind of in a whole new place and a little
different, like it's... Yeah. It's really, it's
all, it's, it's, it's like, it's very disturbing,
but it's, it's awesome. It's like his performance
in this movie is incredible, but it really makes
you feel like you're not like he gets more and
he gets further and further away from you. You're
not even really in on what he's doing when you're
not around, you know? I don't know. He's more
isolated. He's weirder and he's crawling on the
ceilings and stuff. When he's like crawling on
the ceiling, he's like, does it seem like a,
he's like i don't know it seems like a superpower
or whatever like he's like it's like almost like
spider -man or something you know like yeah got
bit by the radioactive spider and now he has
all these superpowers and it's like actually
this is kind of cool right and like even earlier
before he gets super grotesque like before he
even um notices that his body's changing and
stuff he can like punch through walls and shit
and he's just like does this look like a sick
man to you and whatever he's just like so Like,
you know, how he can do all those like gymnastics
and whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's super
interesting. Just like every stage he goes through
and the kind of rationalizations he's making
along the way to like justify his life's work
and the horrible mistake he made. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And then it just gets desperate. And justify
his own desires as well. Like to tie all of those
into one thing. Because that's what he does in
the first scene is this whole thing is my work,
but I'm also going to find a really hot lady
because this is my only chance. You know what
I mean? To get one of those. Yeah, yeah. But,
yeah. It really makes me think about just, like,
if in Revenge of the Nerds, instead, like, the
nerds had just drank, you know, some sort of
potion that made them good at sports, they probably
just would have, like, gone onto the football
team and then been the best on the football team.
You know what I mean? Would have been happy.
Sure, yeah, yeah. They just would have become
the thing that they claim to hate or whatever.
And it's the same like Bundlefly, you know, being
the sweet nerd who then is like as soon as he's
empowered, he's like, look, I'm this great jock
and I want to, you know, go pick up chicks at
bars and fuck them and make them my wife, my
trad wife and, you know, keep them under my control
and blah, blah, blah. Well, I think that's kind
of what's happening when he like brings the hooker
over. Exactly. Because like once he has, once
he feels that bit of power. She's not a hooker.
Don't say that about her. That beautiful angel.
That beautiful trashy angel, don't call her a
hooker. I forgot. Oh, no, he picks her up at
the bar after breaking that guy's arm. Yeah,
it's some guy's girlfriend. He just alphas the
guy and then is like, I'm going to take your
woman. He just does the jock thing where he's
just like, I'm going to take a woman home. So
that's even more on point. I mean, he's basically
an ogre in that scene. He just becomes ogre.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And takes her home. That shit
is crazy. Yes, but don't speak ill of that sweet
angel. She was no hooker. She was a girlfriend.
She was an alcoholic, townie girlfriend. I'm
sorry. She just has that look about her, you
know? I'm not going to say she didn't. But yeah,
I mean, what a great movie. It's also like, you
know... I guess it doesn't really need to be
said, but I just, I love the special effects
in this movie. It's so refreshing to watch a
movie with like such incredible practical effects
these days. Totally. Like every time I watch
it, I'm like impressed by the special effects.
Yeah. The ending with the fucking final fly form
too is just so fucking cool. No, totally. It's
so well done. And it's just like, it makes it
a lot of fun, I think. Because, like, this movie
is fucking a miserable movie. Like, you know
what I mean? Like, on paper, this is, like, it's
depressing and it's... There's nothing about
it that should be fun, like, actually. Like,
you know what I mean? But I have a blast watching
this movie. It does not feel like a miserablest
experience at all. And that's one of the things
Cronenberg, I think, is great at, is just going,
like, incredibly dark and then, like, making
you laugh at it. But not laugh at it, actually.
Like, you're not like, oh, this is so cheesy,
I'm laughing at it. You're just like, this is
so horrible. You're right. It's like, this is
so on point. It's like watching a car chase or
something. It's like just super stimulus fun,
even though it's just a deterioration of a person
into a weird, monstrous, toxic thing that's falling
apart and trying to... merge with his wife and
her child. It's so gross that it shouldn't be.
It's one of those things that goes so hard that
you can't help but laugh at it as a sort of defense
against how horrifying it is. Especially just
pulling out the nails. That's awful. And squeezing
his finger and it's like popping a pimple. It's
so nasty. There's so much that squirts out of
his finger too. It's like a full... It's brutal.
It's disgusting. I mean, I know there's plenty
of people who can't watch this movie because
it makes them sick. And that's brilliant because
it's not cheesy. And even today it's not cheesy.
You watch this movie and it's like, dude, these
effects are fucking horrifying. Really disgusting.
realistic and for the most part like yeah I mean
even the monkey that gets that gets exploded
oh it gets turned inside out yeah is really cool
looking and disturbing and it's also like that
seems also a bummer like it's also like he just
kills a thing it's such a bummer um yeah but
it's still fun because it gets so crazy however
in the original when he kills the fucking family
cat it's like that's actually just stomach turning
to me like that that actually disturbs me a lot
more in the original when you just Because he
doesn't tell anybody about it. You hear the cat
meow once, and then it's like, where's the cat
been? And he doesn't confess about it until much
later. And it's like, dude, you just killed the
cat in your confidence to do your thing. And
it's gone, and it's just in the ether. The first
movie, that and the cloth over his head, that
made me feel bad for the rest of the day in a
way that The Fly really doesn't. The Fly, even
though it's in the moment, it's like, oh! those
are all things that after i go all i laugh and
it like becomes a blast um the original really
really kind of fucked with me and i guess yeah
there there's something about like not showing
something or making something way more like yeah
yeah you have to use your imagination a little
more that makes it scarier yeah but cronenberg
you don't want it to be scarier it's already
scary enough so he makes it fun scary like you
know yeah making it scarier makes it fun and
palatable Yeah, the cat thing's the worst. No,
yeah, the cat thing was really, really eerie.
Just killing the family pet and not telling anyone
about it is so, like, serial killer thing. No,
for sure. There was supposed to be a scene in
Cronenberg's where he has to kill a cat -monkey
hybrid or something like that. That's sick. I
can't remember specifically if he puts a cat
through and it gets turned inside out like the
monkey or if he... Or if he's doing tests on
putting two things in at one time. Right, right.
But they couldn't come up with a cat -monkey
hybrid that was cool enough? No. What they couldn't
deal with is the fact that he has to beat it
to death. And they just felt like the audience
is going to completely turn against Seth at this
point if we watch him kill this thing. So they
just removed that from the movie. And it's easy
enough to turn against Seth pretty early on for
many reasons. The earlier on, the better you
are at reading people. You know what I mean?
If you watch The Flying, as soon as he shows
up, you're like, oh, fuck this guy. Then you're
probably, you know what I mean? He does kill
that first monkey by turning it inside out. He
doesn't beat it to death. But like for a lot
of people, it's just like there's a line that
gets crossed when your character is like viscerally
like beating something to death that was once
a cute cat or whatever. That makes sense. But
there is also later when he sees the monkey's
brother, he says, I'm sorry I killed your brother.
That's still, it invokes the same kind of like,
oh, yeah, you're kind of a fucked up person.
No, it does. That's why, yeah, like you said,
the earlier you realize that, like, I mean, the
first time he puts a monkey through, depending
on your morals and values, you'd be like, this
is evil, right? Or maybe before that, when you're
like, oh, wait, you're into coding? Oh, you're
evil. Yeah, because that's just the kind of thing
people will justify in the name of science, just
like what Vincent Price is saying at the end
of the first one. You know, like, well, we got
teleportation, so what does it matter that some
monkeys got killed? I'm going to look up real
quick what year Primate came out. Primate? Primate.
No, not Primate. Primate was 74. It's a Frederick
Wiseman movie. It's a verite documentary about
one of these scientific places where they do
experiments on monkeys. Okay. And you watch these
scientists. murder these monkeys in the most
horrible ways like and you like kind of get to
know like you know which monkeys it is and you
see them do things or whatever and then you see
them like dissecting this monkey that you just
saw them playing with and you see them like well
he's still alive like with his stomach open and
he's looking at his open stomach and they're
cutting pieces at like you know what i mean it's
like they're doing the most horrible fascistic
nazi experiments on these apes and then in the
end he does a you know which he hardly ever does
in his movies, but he does an extended shot of
a speech of one of these scientists at a fundraiser
where he's trying to raise funding for his thing.
And his speech is basically just like, look,
we don't really know what good we're doing here,
but we need to keep experimenting so that we
can figure out what good there is down the line.
You know what I mean? We're actually experimenting
on these monkeys just for no reason, just kind
of testing the limits of torture. How else are
we going to know the limits of torture unless
we torture these monkeys? You know what I mean?
It's so self -evidently horrifying after you've
watched this. 74, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think
that that might have something to do with, I
mean, it's, you know. 12 years later, I don't
know. But the idea of changing it from a cat
to an ape just evokes that to me. I guess also
an ape is more human and whatever. But yeah,
that doc is basically Wiseman saying there's
no difference between the scientists and the
Nazis. These are all like Mengele surgeons who
are doing this to humanoid looking animals and
whatever. And you watch it and it is by far the
most disturbing thing I've ever seen because
it's real. And the people in that doc are monsters.
I mean, real, real monsters that it's like, I
don't, I don't think people are born that way.
Like, you know what I mean? I, I, I think that
there are people who are born with certain things
and deficiencies and whatever and blah, blah,
blah. But like, you need to be, you need to be
socialized to, to something to be that monstrous.
You need to like get away with it over and over
and slowly become the person that thinks that
this is okay. And like, These are like they're
like masturbating these apes and then cutting
them to pieces and like then trying to teach
them things like it's it is a level of monstrosity
that is only available to nerds. Like no jocks
have ever been that horrifying. That's the difference
from the Holocaust from every previous war. Like
is that nerds were introduced, IBM was introduced,
that type of science and love of the system over
the individual thing. Like that is the difference.
Yeah. And isn't that like an early sign of like
psychopathic? serial killer behavior is your
ability to torture animals of course yeah yeah
yeah it's absolutely just yeah despicable to
see other living things as disposable for you
yeah yeah exactly i mean dude i mean look like
life comes from death and whatever i understand
it but it's the enjoyment of it it's the it's
the i don't it's not just the enjoyment it's
the it's the lack of enjoyment i don't know is
there something so monstrous about the scientific
nature of it And also, especially if nothing
really comes out of it, if it's, if it's all
about like Mengele shit or like, you know, MK
ultra stuff, we're just kind of like torturing
people and like fucking them up just to figure
something out. And then we don't really find
out anything. Right. There's not a thing that
we're gaining from torturing this ape. Like,
it's just that if we torture a lot of them, maybe
we'll find some sort of a pattern. It's like,
that's what science is and blah, blah, blah.
And it's like, oh, so then you shouldn't do it.
Like, it actually is just wrong on the face of
it. When you see how you actually have to, like,
the operations of creating, all those things
that you say are great and justified. And I'm
not saying that I wanted your son to not be born.
Like, you know what I mean? I'm not. There are
good things that come out of this. But I just,
when you look at the things that had to be, that
are routinely and consistently and constantly
being done to maintain that thing and to push
it forward. And when you weigh those. It's a
real deal with the devil. It is. Like accepting
progress and technology and stuff. Yeah. That's,
I mean, that's what we said in the 2001 episode.
Yeah. Yeah. But I was really, really disturbed
to find out that there are still many labs even
today that do this to dogs. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's -his -name was doing it, right? Fauci?
That was one of Fauci's labs that was letting
dogs get eaten by flesh -eating flies. I mean,
they're doing all kinds of things to them. I
think it was beagles, though. It was beagles
and flesh -eating flies was a Fauci thing. It's
beagles because beagles will never turn against
you. no matter how much you torture them so like
that's even more sadistic but like they were
doing some just like yeah they're doing fucking
horrifying things to beagles forcing them to
have heart attacks like exposing them to all
this kind of shit that would give them like cancers
and whatever and again like look man i'm not
i'm not some seeing what kind of pain they could
deal i'm not some bleeding heart right like i
i love dogs and shit like you know but like i
i'm not a vegetarian i understand that my life
comes at the expense of mass death like i i understand
that the conveniences that i live with in america
come at the expense of you know people dying
in the middle east for my convenience whatever
it is there are many things that i am living
off of that are evils that are being done in
my name but i think that the thing that's specific
to the scientific paradigm is that when people
work in a lab with those apes all day long torturing
those apes then they go out and they integrate
into society and they normalize all of those
ideas that come from that lab some of those ideas
are how to cure cancer But a lot of them have
to do with a psychotic distance from the damage
that you are doing that you can see and not being
able to not see what you are seeing and get through
the day, like those sorts of things. And then
normalizing that to the rest of the non -scientific
population and all that, like that is a much
bigger thing that is not really traceable. You
know what I mean? It's a vibe shift situation.
the normalization of that, the fact that people
do not see like scientists as automatically monstrous,
that that has been normalized and that we, you
know, it's justified. I mean, well, like I'm,
I'm also, I feel the same way as you, man. And
I'm not like, I'm a meat eater and yada, yada,
yada. It's like, it doesn't mean you can't criticize
the systems that are out of your control that
have made it into such a like. horrible I'm saying
I'm a meat eater and yes and like you can talk
about mass factory you know killing of meat being
a problem or whatever but like I still think
as a meat eater I don't want to hang out with
the guy whose job it is to just like murder cows
one after the next all day long like I think
that that guy is getting normalized to something
that is probably making him into a weird monster
and I'm not saying that like Killing a cow is
just like if I killed every cow that I ate, I'd
have to probably kill five or so by now. You
know what I mean? There's a lot of meat on each
cow. If you're killing the amount of cows for
the entire society, you're absorbing a lot of
violence and normalizing it and becoming a bit
of a monster. And I think that's similar with
like all this experimentation and all these things
like it's. The people and then the philosophies
and ideas that come from those people, the transhumanist
philosophies, for instance, those are the things
that are normalized that are truly and deeply
evil. And yes, like the torture of the apes is
something that's horrible to watch and whatever.
But it's like I could almost justify a lot of
those things in a like justification way. It's
the it's the actual evil that it's doing. Like,
I don't know. You know, there's something. There's
something specific, the perversion that is happening.
It's the perversion that Cronenberg is making
all of his movies about, actually. It is that
perversion that is happening from that integration
and the distribution of suffering. Well, I think
it's very connected to just like capital and
progress and growth and all the systems that
we now exist within. Of course. That's like kind
of what perverts it because, yeah, there's nothing
perverted about... the natural act of killing
so that you can eat that humans have engaged
with for all of humanity you know but it's also
like look let's say there are so many stray cats
in philadelphia that like somebody needs to be
rounding up these cats and unfortunately there
aren't enough homes for them so we need to be
putting them down and that's sad or whatever
and blah blah i still don't want to hang out
with a person who puts down cats all day that's
a person who like I probably should be ostracized.
Like if I, if I was on like a blind date with
somebody like, oh yeah, I kill cats. That's what
I do. I'd be like, oh, you're okay. Like, I'm
not saying that what you do is unnecessary and
doesn't contribute to society, but it's just
like, I fucking think you're a weird monster
and I don't want to talk to you. And I just feel
like that's the way that we should feel about
scientists where it's like, well, it's good that
cancer and whatever, thank you. And blah, blah,
blah. But also like, just don't, don't. talk
to me about any of your views or opinions or
like, I just don't want to hear from a fucking
scientist about anything. Yeah. I don't know
how you can exist in this world now without having
a major cognitive dissonance about all this.
You know, it's just like, it is what it is. It's
really, but I think that, I think that, I think
that a lot of this is, you know, the paradigm
of Success is, like we've been saying a couple
of times, determined by the women in some of
these cases. And if women are going out and sleeping
with scientists, then nobody's really punishing
the nerds for being the nerds. Like, you know
what I mean? Yeah, exactly. I think that, you
know, women probably are not sleeping with the
guy who kills cats all day. That might be an
unattractive quality. But we see scientists as
an attractive quality. This is something that
is being chosen and put up. These people are
being successful socially and politically and
sexually and all these things. Financially. Financially.
The nerds make a lot of money, man, at this point.
Yeah. And I think that at the very least, we
as a society could put some sort of a... A spin
on it that's like, oh, yeah, you got the finances,
but you're a fucking disgusting monster and nobody
wants to talk to you or be around you. It's like,
no, we just value the finances over any of those
things. And that's my problem. It's like the
people who are sleeping with Elon Musk are as
bad as Elon Musk. You're validating an ideology
through like... your approval of this person
and allowing him to feel like he's a human being
even though we all know that he's not he should
be shunned i mean he should be made to feel that
he should kill himself yeah i mean so right there
is uh kind of the same justification though you
know that like you got to break some omelets
to make some eggs is that like if these nerds
are truly evil then like I don't know. This is
the slippery slope, right, where, like, you could
justify the genocide of the nerds, so to speak.
Like, because look at what they're going to do
to our society. Like, they are evil. And, like,
just, like, look 50 years down the road to what
we're going to get if we let these guys take
over. So we should, like, kill them all, right?
Nip it in the bud. And it's, like, and then that
is also, like, I don't know that I could ever,
under any circumstance, support a genocide of
any people, no matter how... logical the argument
is that they're evil or whatever. But I think
that what you could do is stigmatize their side
of the argument and show that they are Nazis
and that there's a reason that we defeated the
Nazis instead of just importing them into our
country and letting them take over. But I think
the problem is that happened and they were stigmatized
and they were the losers, but then they took
over. They figured out a way to win. You know,
when you, when you bully someone and push them
down and make them the pariah, like ultimately
that's going to be their desire and what happens.
And they're going to be like, Hitler was a nerd,
right? I don't know. Hitler was the original
nerd. Yeah, dude. He's a fucking nerd. Like a
lot of those guys are nerds. He's like the nerd
who like, Co -opted all the boars. Maybe our
next episode should be Mein Kampf. I haven't
read it, but I bet it's very similar to Revenge
of the Nerds. You know, I would bet it's like,
they fucking never gave me this and they never
got this and I'm going to take it. You know what
I mean? Like all these Jews in charge, they're
taking all the women and they're... Yeah. That
ends up being like the narrative that justifies
any kind of genocidal horror. like what we're
seeing today or whatever. It always has to be
structured in terms of good and evil. And we
were the victims. And so we get to, we deserve
to do this and we deserve revenge. Yeah. We deserve
revenge. And yeah, it's like, that's, yeah, it's
gross. It's pretty horrible. I don't know. I
don't know what we do about that, but hopefully
stigmatize it. Yeah. At the very least stigmatize
it. You can, uh, I guess just on that subject
of stigma, I really think that that's kind of
the thing that Revenge of the Nerds did that's
so evil and that I think really should be counteracted.
I think Revenge of the Nerds is the movie that
creates this archetype of the nerd and sort of
tries to remove the stigma from that. And I think
it really successfully did. And it made a path
for all the brundleflies to kind of fucking take
over. You know what I mean? Mm -hmm. Yeah. I
think basically like... That's that's kind of
it is like it's an info wars sort of a thing
it's a it's a battle in the in the sphere of
our human ideas much like we talked about with
the moon landing and stuff like you know all
these things but creating an iconography of the
nerds being successful with the women and whatever
creates a path for that actually to happen and
it did and then I think in the fly we see you
know. all the evils that come from that. The
criticism of that or whatever. Yeah, the response
to that. It's probably 1986 when The Fly came
out. You already have that kind of being obvious
in the culture. I mean, there's not that many
years between Revenge of the Nerds and The Fly.
Yes, that's what's also interesting about the
timing of these. But Revenge of the Nerds did
come first. The Fly is the movie that was made
in a world where that movie existed, The Revenge
of the Nerds. And like you said, I think that
also informed so many movies. In the 90s and
80s about, like, teens and school and, you know,
social hierarchies and whatever. Because, like,
you're right. Like, do you remember the movie
The New Guy? Yeah. Fucking terrible movie. I
watched it again somewhat recently. That's another,
like, horrendously evil movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, where you watch this guy who's, like, you
know, I don't know if he's a nerd. He's kind
of an art kid, too. He plays funk music. But
he's just, like, a loser who gets picked on at
school. And then he tries to, like, reinvent
himself and become a cool dude in the new school
he goes into. And it's actually, like, really,
really depraved watching how evil he is and how,
like, dishonest he is. Right. To all the people
around him. Because he thinks he deserves it
because he didn't get it for the first part of
his life. Because he thinks he deserves it. yeah
yeah and how he gets the girl in the end even
though he's been like lying to her the whole
time which I guess is like kind of like Aladdin
too you know it's like one of the things that's
a little bit problematic about the Aladdin narrative
is like you just lie to this girl and pretend
you're someone you're not the whole time and
then in the end when you're revealed to be your
true self she'll just she'll just forgive you
that's exactly what happens in Revenge of the
Nerds too when he rapes the girl yeah exactly
he's pretending you're her boyfriend and she'll
forgive you but like Yeah, that's something that's
in Aladdin. Like, Aladdin is also Revenge of
the Nerds. It's like the poor, downtrodden dude
who eventually gets the fucking princess because
he lied his way into doing that and, like, gave
him the system with a fucking magical genie.
This is, like, actually is, like, this whole
ethos is super embedded into popular culture
of that time and so many narratives that are
directly given to children and stuff. This is
the thing, man. When you look at Star Trek, look
at the nerds that were influenced by Star Trek
and what they brought about. There's spaceships
that are named after the Enterprise in the real
world. The cell phone is something that was inspired
by people watching people in Star Trek doing
the flip phone thing. Many of the things that
are in our reality today are things that came
from science fiction and then The nerds that
watched that science fiction were like, oh, I'm
going to make this into reality. And that is
exactly what happened with Revenge of the Nerds.
Revenge of the Nerds is the Star Trek of the
80s. It is. Like, oh, you could do this too.
Just become a coder and then you can get images
of women on your computer and you can distribute
them and make money off of it and defeat the
paradigm and then get rich enough off of that
that you could actually get the women. And then
what happened is Zuckerberg and the rest of them
did it. They brought that into reality. This
is a science fiction projection of a future that
then came because it was projected, because the
roadmap was laid down, and because it was not
stigmatized. Because they removed the stigma
from this inherently, obviously evil, fascistic
view of the world. I mean, it doesn't take a
genius to point out. This whole idea of like,
you know, with the whole AI revolution happening
and whatever, it's just like, didn't any of you
guys watch Terminator? Right. Why do you want
to create the things that you saw? They did,
and James Cameron made Terminator, and he's one
of them. Like, James Cameron's one of these techno
-utopians. He actually sort of has been outspoken
about AI and the dangers of it recently. I understand,
but we've done this before where it's like talking
about whether AI is going to destroy the world
or whether AI is going to save the world is talking
about how AI is the most important thing in the
world. Like no matter which way it is. No, no,
I understand that. It's an advertisement for
AI to talk about that it's monstrous and it's
an advertisement to AI to talk about how it's
incredible. Like James Cameron is not a guy who's
an AI shrugger. And that's the only real anti
AI is like the people like me, where you're just
kind of like, it doesn't fucking, what are you
talking about? You know what I mean? You're just
still talking about Google. Like I don't, okay.
I didn't, I didn't bring this up in our talk
about 2001, but I think one of the most like
ironic and like tone deaf examples of like the
new techno utopians co -opting. a like old symbol
and not like realizing what they're doing is
that there actually was an iphone ad where the
iphone was the monolith from 2001 yeah yeah yeah
and the monkey and the monkeys were all around
the iphone right or whatever it's just like wow
like do you guys like realize what you're doing
here or do you not or do you not care or like
what the fuck you know what i mean it's such
a weird thing to do to be like, yeah, we are
the monolith. Yeah, because they think that 2001
is Arthur C. Clarke's movie about our beautiful
future of technology. They don't understand that
it's Stanley Kubrick's movie giving the finger
to Arthur C. Clarke and all of these other idiots
who are then going about and bringing about this
reality. I mean, based off of the science fiction
path that they lay. Yeah. Well. I don't know.
Do you have any final thoughts? I feel like the
past three or four episodes have all wrapped
up with the same sentiment, which is like, fuck
the techno utopians. But, uh, do you have anything
else to say? Fuck the techno utopians. Yeah.
Fuck the techno utopians. And I'd say that's
that mattress, man. That's that. That's that.
Thank you.