See, I believe that all the mysteries of the
universe, all the answers to life's questions can be found in a Spielberg film.
I've been afraid for all of my life. Why doesn’t
somebody just shoot me in the head? Right up
until the day I knew my life was ending. You
look bad. No, man. You smell bad. I'm pretty
fucking far from Ok. Really, I feel like I'm sharing
a very- Look at my shit. I had an affair.- Precious
moment with you. There are no nations. There are
no peoples. Are you threatening me, dick? You
don't approve. Fake. Well, too bad. Totally fake.
Did it seem fake- You look like a damn crackhead.
When my best friend was bitten in half in front of me? I found this cover story
personally embarrassing myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything but the little fishies
All right. All right. Welcome to Everything But
The Little Fishies. Welcome. I'm Evan. I'm Mike.
And today we have a very special episode for
you. We're actually in person. Yeah, we're actually
in person. Some context that we've never made
entirely clear on the show before, but Mike and
I actually live on opposite sides of the country.
um in the great us of a and uh we have always
done this podcast over the phone recording on
our separate ends and then bringing it together
so we're this is the first time uh that we're
face to face i uh i'm back in the east coast
on a little trip and we thought it'd be fun to
get together and pump one out see how it works
yeah it's our 20th episode so it feels fitting
to do something special Important anniversary.
Yeah, yeah. A couple decades. But yeah, because
it was a little bit of a last minute decision,
we weren't exactly sure what the topic should
be, if we should stay on the schedule we were
trying to do, or if we should try to do something
different. And I don't know, Mike, do you want
to set the scene for what we're going to answer
here? Yeah, I figured we'd just do a one -off
and watch some weird shit that... basically i
don't have figured out and you hadn't seen it
and stuff so starting at least with zardoz you
know john borman 1970 what for um 1974 and yeah
basically a movie that i have seen before but
you know like john borman i was so stoned that
i basically don't remember it so you know kind
of figured it might be an interesting sort of
puzzle to try and figure out exactly so we um
mike picked me up at like midnight last night
and um we drove back to his place and i kind
of just wanted to go to bed but we ended up shooting
the shit and we turned on zardoz and uh it was
my second time seeing zardoz um it was enough
fun to continue watching the whole thing we're
kind of at first just like uh let's watch the
beginning and then maybe finish it tomorrow and
we yeah we watched the whole movie uh and you
know got to bed at like three in the morning
it moves it moves yeah it's pretty fun and so
we decided that you know this morning we would
talk about zardoz and then we'll take a little
break and we'll figure out um what movie we want
to watch next based on where this conversation
goes. And then we'll come back and record that
half. Maybe another thing that we haven't seen
and figure out. Maybe something we'll see. We'll
see what happens. Well, cool. So, Zardoz. Quite
a movie. Quite a film. It's quite a movie. Yeah.
The first time I watched it, I was so torn about
the way I felt about it because on the one hand,
I felt that it had really incredible iconography.
I mean, I was very aware of some of its iconography
before I'd seen it and just like, wasn't aware
of where, where that came from. The floating
head. The floating head. And most famously, um,
just Sean Connery's red underwear gun belt get
up. Um, yeah, it's just like, I've seen that
image around. I'm just like, what the fuck? What
movie is that from? It's like, they really got
Sean Connery to do that. And apparently they
got him to do it for very little money. His career
wasn't exactly doing super well after Diamonds
Are Forever, for whatever reason. The best of
the Sean Connery bonds. I think they paid him
$200 ,000, which I guess is still nothing to
sneeze at in 1974. I'd take it to wear red underpants.
But yeah, I mean, it's an incredibly bizarre
movie, so it's really hard to write off. The
very beginning of the movie sets the tone in
such a way that everything that comes after just
feels like, yeah, why not? Like this all makes
sense. I mean, the opening, the opening, just
like floating head of Zarda. What's his actual
name? Arthur Freen. Yeah. Arthur Freen. Like
his, the, the opening where he's like. You know,
it's highly satirical and full of irony and whatever.
It's like so cheesy, but it's very, like it's
on the nose. And he's like, he explains the whole
movie basically. He's just like, and I control
all the characters in this narrative and, and
someone even controls me. The writer of the movie.
The writer of the movie. Yeah, it's all a movie
that you're watching. Yeah, exactly. And yeah,
so like. it really sets the tone in a great way.
That's hilarious and memorable. And like, you
know, tells you that it's ironic and satirical,
like from the start knows what it is. Yeah. And
clearly by someone who's like thinking in circles
and on a lot of drugs and kind of like, but what
if the movie was about the movie? Making the
movie and the movie. The first thing we should
say is that this is a movie. And we should tell
them that the end of the movie is going to be
this. And that in the end, it's all a movie.
Yeah. Let's start it with that and then get to
the real stuff. And I feel like it's very possible.
This might be one of the earliest sci -fis to
kind of do something like that. But it derives
from like the late 60s. new wave movement and
the kind of meta filmmaking they were doing like
it's a very godard decision or something like
that totally just like break the fourth wall
and make you aware of the movie and it's like
this is not some kind of fascist film that's
trying to suck you and seduce you into some kind
of didactic narrative about reality or whatever
it is instead you're constantly aware that you're
watching a movie and there's not one moment in
sardaz that you're seduced by the movie like
the entire time you are aware that you are watching
sean connery in stupid outfit running around
now he's in a wedding dress just like every decision
is so like yeah it takes you out of the movie
because just like i just can't even believe they're
making this decision yeah that is so ridiculous
And some of them are such incredible spectacle
decisions, too. One of the things that I think
stood out to me the most this time is that the
craft of this movie is absolutely impeccable.
That while you kind of imagine it as this cheesy
sort of low -budget sort of vibe. It's almost
like an episode of Star Trek. Yeah, it feels
like a shitty Star Trek production. But then
when you watch it, it's like, no, no, no. They
nail things that are so expensive and difficult.
One of the things that I think is the best is
the... The projector stuff, the little ring that
he's got that projects and he covers and whatever,
and he projects it on the wall. When he's moving
his arm around, it looks so much like it is actually
being projected from the ring. And there's no
way that in the 70s it was being projected from
the ring. Obviously, there was a projector that
they were matching perfectly. I think some of
them are composites. But then some of them are
real projectiles. But there's also, like, there's
definitely shots where he's, like, holding up
the thing and it's pointed at the wall and the
wall is moving, like, the projection on the wall
is moving exactly with his hand. When it's an
eye and he, like, makes the third eye go on his
forehead or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like,
those are such precise movements that exactly
match his hand movements. That's, like, you'd
have to do a lot of takes of that and get the
guy who was, like... panning the projector to
match up with Sean Connery's arm pan. Exactly.
The little details like that, it gets so incredibly
well the whole time. Um, I agree. And, and just
like some of the spectral stuff, like the fucking,
the triangle room, the, the, the Ray Ionami,
you know, uh, room of course, the tabernacle,
the tabernacle that when you're inside that you
see, like there's the one shot where the camera,
um, um, booms down. And you can actually see
the three dimensions of the room. You can see
the depth because the perspective changes. And
you can see that behind those walls where there's
those naked people just against the glass, like
those are actually people. And there are actually
people like 30 feet behind them suspended in
midair with like water falling on them, staying
completely still for like five minutes. Like
the amount of effort that was put into that set
that's just like totally thrown away, like except
for in that one boom shot where you actually
can tell, oh shit, that's actually all there.
is like it's it's so much effort like that room
had to have been like a giant you know 200 foot
sound stage that had people in the background
whatever and then they had this little triangle
in the front so that you could see the depth
and you didn't need to do like it doesn't add
enough to the production value of the movie but
it's just a thing that like is so impressive
when you notice it it's also like distracting
like it takes you out of the movie just like
everything else well i didn't really notice this
about it and i and i i was i'm i was skeptical
and maybe even still um that it's not just like
a trick or like something that they do for one
shot while the other one does just have all these
dolls hanging in the background because like
they're really tiny and out of focus and yeah
i i think you can see you can see the dolls or
the people moving a little bit even in the deep
background sometimes that like Maybe some of
them are models and stuff. I wasn't able to find
anything about it. You were saying that you found
a bunch of people saying that the nudity in the
movie was a problem for them and stuff. A lot
of the actors were annoyed by how nude they had
to be and whatever. To me, that's just like,
yeah, if you had John Borman being like, all
right, I need you to hang with your leg up and
your two butt cheeks here and your face against
this glass with water pouring on you for the
next five minutes still silent and whatever.
It's got to be fucking annoying. Well, the problem
is the nudity. That's the problem. It's that
we have to be naked when we do that. But maybe
it's just like, maybe the nudity is the only
leverage we have because we can't say... that
we don't want to be hung upside down and have
water poured on us. Like this is a movie. Right.
You got to do what you got to do. Right. And
maybe the nudity, we can be like, yeah, but do
we have to be naked? Really? And did they have
to be naked? Not really, but it made it weirder
and cooler and more like, I know, like, I don't
know. It's like more impressive to like, but
like, you know, if you're, you know, if you're,
if you're going to defend the reality of the
movie, like it's a pool that. creates clones
essentially it regenerates right right the immortals
that have died it's literally the same thing
so like why would they show up in there with
clothing right or like whatever you know of course
and like yeah you could you could put like body
suits on all these actors that like like peach
colored or whatever skin colored right body suits
and like eliminate the nipples eliminate the
nipples or whatever it is just to make them feel
more comfortable but still have it look good
on camera but like it's I was saying it's cheaper
to actually just get a bunch of actors and humiliate
them than it is to build a bunch of realistic
models or make a bunch of suits that they can
wear or whatever it is. You were saying that
when we saw the people in the plastic bags too.
Yeah, the people in the plastic bags. It looks
so uncomfortable. It doesn't look like they have
any breathing tube in there or anything. The
bags are like vacuum sealed to their faces in
a way where it almost looks like their eyeball
is touching the plastic. It's very impressive.
Like, but again, it's an impressive thing that
like takes you out of the movie. You're not watching
that feeling like I'm in this reality. You're
watching that being like, look at them torturing
this fucking actor. It feels exploitative. Like
it's almost a bit of an exploitation film, which
is very of the time. And I think this all kind
of segues into like how Joe Daworski inspired
this movie feels for some reason, you know, like.
In El Topo and the Holy Mountain, Joe Daworski
is like, at that time, a lot of filmmakers were
working in these environments that were pretty
problematic and toxic, but through that created
some kind of insane synergy and magic that they
captured on screen. Or like Apocalypse Now. I
think that's later in the 70s though, right?
That might be one of the last movies that kind
of goes this hard on the method stuff where people
are just on drugs all the time on set and stuff
like that. Because John Borman would be doing
a lot of drugs while he made this movie. And
there was a very, very hedonistic vibe on the
set and a lot of people doing drugs. And they
shot this movie in Ireland in this small town.
And apparently the population of that town grew
by like 15 % after this production left. Cause
like people will be just fucking and like, like
taking a bunch of drugs and shit like that. Like
all the extras and actors and all the people
who are in this movie, cause there's tons of
people in there, you know, like it has huge,
like huge crowds and whatever. That's, that's
the thing is like, like thinking about like,
like I was, it's like, it's just reiterating
what I just said, but the, the craft of this
movie is so like the, the, the budget is so huge
and you can tell, but like, It feels like, you
know, the battle for the Planet of the Apes.
You know what I mean? Where like, it's just like
this group of guys coming up and then pretending
it's a huge battle by like cutting into this
like group of six and then cutting to another
group of six. You know, it's the same six actors,
but they're just pretending it's a lot of them.
This is like almost the same excitement of that
battle scene. But then when you actually cut
to the wide, it's like, oh shit, they got like
hundreds of people to do this. I just like, it's
the actual. Well, the first scene, there's like
so many like Zed's people. Sean Connery is like
people. There's tons of them on those hillsides.
Same with the guns. They're riding horses and
shit. And then you go into the head and there's
all these people wrapped in saran wrap and there's
all these people hanging in this tabernacle.
It actually is a huge group. You're in a big
society with all these people living in it and
all these different factions of people. They
show you all these different casts of society
essentially in this new world where people are
immortal. Or at least the elite is immortal.
something like elysium shit yeah well the people
who live in the in the dome are immortal in the
the void what do they call it in the vortex in
the vortex in the vortex in the vortex which
is yeah yeah i mean that george aworski connection
though going back to that is just like uh you
know he was like doing acid on set and like exploiting
his actors and kind of like killing animals and
whatever like just doing all this kind of crazy
shit i mean we hear him talking about it he's
like yeah these people thought i was a god i
like i made them lie there all day and they were
some of them were getting heat stroke but they
didn't say anything because they thought i was
a god because i was making the movie and that's
what a god does in mexico in 1970 you know it's
like it's very uh yeah he's he's but but a big
part of it is the exploitation and like the the
sort of things you can get out of you know i
like i think a lot of that is just like a a new
hollywood thing like that era of like when you
could just like have a heaven's gate or something
where like they would put so much money into
this and then the people who were in charge of
the money were just like completely like on so
much cocaine that they didn't give a fuck about
like giving themselves 10 million dollars to
rent like i mean heaven's gate he's like renting
sets from himself for ridiculous amounts of money.
He was scamming people, actually, at a certain
level. But it's almost a scam to make this movie,
too. I don't think Borman was scamming just to
try and get rich off of this, but he was tricking
people into doing something that's just like,
this is just your acid fantasy. It's amazing
that you could actually get the amount of, first
of all, money, but also committed people to show
up on set and get naked and do these things.
It's just a film industry that doesn't exist
anymore. The idea of that set being able to finish
the film without some sort of controversy about
what it's doing. Yeah, exactly. And some of that's
good. I don't think on Heaven's Gate they killed
horses. It's not like these guys are all great
people. That time of film is over and they made
great movies during that time. And sometimes
it feels like a Mayan sacrifice where actually
something comes out of that that's magical. A
lot of people can accept that as being one of
the greatest periods in film history. And of
course you can make specific arguments that Heaven's
Gate wasn't worth it. or something you know that
like it wasn't worth killing horses or exploiting
the studio and bankrupting and doing all this
kind of shit like it's like having kids in movies
too it's like a really fine line or how you keep
that really respectful and not traumatic or damaging
so many kids get fucked up working on movies
right but at the same time like fucking up kids
on movies made a bunch of great movies it feels
like a blood sacrifice for the culture yeah it
does and like whether you think that's good or
not doesn't really change the fact that like
don't get milo and otis without throwing a hundred
cats off of a cliff yeah of course but you also
don't get the golden gate bridge without killing
tons of workers exactly you know like there's
like it feels like very capitalistic american
movies are very capitalist american thing yeah
I mean, the movies have been made that don't
kill people, obviously, and like plenty of these
things, but these kind of like giant absurd.
When you think about the amount of money that's
put into these things, like somebody dying on
them is not like absurd compared to like, you
know what I mean? Like how much does it cost
to take out a hit on somebody? You know what
I mean? Versus how much money goes into these
movies and is on the line and whatever. Like,
I just, I think that when you take into account
the amount of. effort behind these things like
it's not crazy for joe daworski to say like these
people thought i was a god and like yeah they
lied in the sun all day in black clothes because
they were afraid whatever like and that allowed
me to create this they got heat stroke and i
may have sort of raped a woman on camera or whatever
and just like things like that you know just
like right i mean yeah and his commentary yeah
he claims all sorts of things Like, that the
girl was on 50 hits of acid and that he was raping.
But out of that comes crazy shit, man. Like,
we don't have shit like that, that, like, actually,
I don't know, that watching makes you feel like
you're watching a sacrifice. Yeah, it's hard
to argue with the result, even though it is kind
of hard to argue to defend the means or whatever.
It's impossible to defend the means, yeah. Well,
that's the point, is that, like, we can be sad
about this horse trainer. who had to kill his
horse, but he, like, willingly bred these horses
to be used in movies and possibly get hurt and
killed. And every person who, like, breeds horses
for any reason at all, like, they're operating
under some risk assessment that, like, at some
point their horse could break a limb and be useless,
basically. It's true of children, too. yeah parents
who let their children be in movies and let them
be exploited or let them cross the street on
their own like you know it's any anything like
yeah it's you're taking a risk and everything's
a risk and you're doing it for reasons that might
not be so noble to make some money and whatever
and like i think if you're breeding horses to
make money off them like you know what i mean
you can't really feel bad for this person when
their horse like dies or becomes lame or whatever
it's kind of like maybe i think i think like
i just think i don't know sometimes it's a thing
i'm just i'm just making devil's advocate at
this point it is sad yeah it's sad i think it's
also like they don't always hired for and then
it's like and then it starts getting worse and
worse and then like continuing to go because
like no i paid you and here's more i took a risk
i took a risk assessment but you're just like
having to kill your dog we don't know any of
these people maybe they're a little heartless
i know maybe they were maybe they killed many
a horse and something you gotta do and but i
don't know it's it's hard to believe yeah Horse
people get very connected to their horses. Right,
right. They do. But, I mean, I don't know. But
at least in Zardoz, he's not killing horses.
Yeah, yeah. To bring it back to that. It's just
naked people. But I feel like when you think
about John Borman, he did Deliverance in 1972.
Zardoz is his follow -up to Deliverance. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. His most successful movie. I mean,
he had Carte Blanche. He had Carte Blanche. And
the Holy Mountain came out between them in 73.
Even though John Borman seems like a pretty psychedelic
filmmaker, I haven't seen many of his movies,
but Deliverance, when you compare Deliverance
to Zardoz, it makes the psychedelic aspects of
Deliverance stand out a little bit more to me
as being very intentional instead of just weird.
I think Deliverance is a very psychedelic movie
for me. I think that so much of Deliverance is
the idea of what you don't see or whatever. Every
moment of violence in that movie feels so much
bigger than what it actually is because it's
so fast and then your memory of it grows. It's
like a way of. Your brain's like not sure what
it saw. Yeah. So it keeps filling in information.
Exactly. Like, yeah. And that concept is so psychedelic.
And I've never seen it captured in a movie other
than Deliverance. Like Deliverance nails that
thing in a way that is so like, it's a subtle
thing. Like it's a very, it's a delicate thing
that he pulls off. And it's like you have to,
the craft is there to do something like so subtle
and whatever. But it's also like you have to
have like a. very big very abstract idea to make
the central idea of the thing you know and like
deliverance is also talking about vietnam and
like there's lots of things that it's talking
about but vietnam and trauma it's for sure I
don't know the way that things happen in that
movie is the, the real feature for me. And it's
like, it's like, you know, being in a war zone
and then seeing something happen. And then like
that thing becoming the trauma that then grows
and becomes like, and form is meeting function
because it also wants to traumatize the audience.
Exactly. I like showing you things that like
confuse you and like gross you out, but you're
not even sure what you saw. And like, you're
not sure if you dreamed it or if it was real.
Yeah. that kind of shit. And with deliverance,
like when I went back and like rewatched the
scenes of the violence or whatever, I'm like,
Oh, I didn't even like, I remembered it by the
end of it. Like I just watched, like I watched
the whole movie and then I just rewound and watch
this two minutes. And I'm like, yeah, no, that
wasn't nearly as explicit as I remembered. Like,
like 20 minutes later, like, you know what I
mean? It's just that it grew because of the anxiety
that was built up around it. And the continuing
referencing back to like, it's, there's something
really amazing and psychedelic about that. And
I think that, He's a really, I mean, that comes
from a guy who's doing drugs, I think. That already
does. And Zardoz, I think, comes from a guy who
is completely in the depths of way too much acid,
specifically. I'm sure there was cocaine and
whatnot on set and all sorts of drugs happening,
but Zardoz is an acid thing. a hundred percent
for me. Like that's, that's why there's the goofy
thing going on. That's why the, in the beginning,
there's the talk, there's the, he's the jester
kind of voice. It was like, Oh, I'm going to
do this and blah, blah, blah. It's all very goofy,
psychedelic, but also like directly telling you
what everything is and that at all. Like, I don't
know. It's like connecting the meta to the real,
I don't know. Well, apparently the first scene
was actually, um, Apparently the first scene
was demanded by the producers because the movie
didn't make sense. So it's like if that wasn't
intended, maybe it was like if John Borman actually
just wanted to make a much more confusing movie,
then actually the producers kind of made a strangely
good suggestion. At the same time, I don't think
the opening really... explains them like it tells
you everything or whatever but it doesn't really
explain that much it just sort of gives you like
a little bit of a tonal it contextualizes the
plot a little bit and like I mean when I first
saw it a lot of what the head is saying doesn't
make sense to me until later because like he
says like I'm immortal and yada yada yada and
it's like you're not thinking you don't know
that there's like actually a cast of characters
who are immortal and he says he's two names he
says he's Zardoz and arthur frayne and you're
like what does that mean right and it's like
then zardoz shows up in the beginning he's like
well then what is zardoz and then it's like you
eventually realize like oh he is a human but
he's an immortal human and zardoz is just like
this fake god he play acts as to control this
like population of primitive humans or whatever
really for no reason except to just like You
know, eventually he starts making them grow grain
to feed their like apathetic population. But
the point is, is that what we do in the fucking
Middle East? No, sure. So the point is, is that
like Zardoz actually seems like a very confusing
movie filled with like really, really random
weird choices. But like it actually does kind
of just have a reality that's consistent and
it explains itself and doesn't contradict that
reality. The plot, like, even though it gets
muddy in some places and ends up very interpretive
by the end, like, it's, you can follow it. Like,
it makes sense kind of what's going on in the
movie. It's just all, the way it's presented
is all so heightened and so surreal. I think
it's also just, like, it's turning everything
on its head all the time, where it's just kind
of, like, this is what a normal movie would do,
so let's do the opposite or something. Like,
it's always, like, subverting an expectation
of what a type, and, like, that's why it's so...
like campy but like it's campy with an incredible
amount of craft that like it's like you you can
you can show like this is a performance that
feels like it's a bad actor that like doesn't
know how to act or something so like it's a it
feels but it's like no no that's not why they're
acting that way like it's it's they're acting
that way because it's a part of the tone that
he's created and he's doing and it's the same
with the sets it's like well this could just
be a shitty set That's like a cheap, easy set.
But then it's like, no, no, look at all the detail
that you put into it. Like you're choosing to
make this campy. Like it's in every single moment
you can like see the like. The choices are very
intentional. Yeah. And it's not a mistake that
it's campy. And it's constantly showing you like
this is a cheesy scene where this is happening.
But look at how cinematic this aspect of it is
pulled off or something. If we go with authorial
intent. 100 % John Borman did openly say that
a lot of this movie doesn't make sense. And there
are many scenes that are pointless. Like he was
on a lot of drugs. He did make a lot of decisions,
but he might just, he might not realize that
like. he actually was working at some level where
like everything in this movie is actually speaking
to something. That's exactly what I'm saying.
Like I'm kind of not interested in what sober
John Borman has to say about this movie. I would
love to talk to John Borman on four hits of acid
about this movie. Like I would love to hear what
that guy has to say about it because I think
he had it figured out. I think that guy, and
that's like, that's the thing is like, I feel
like. This movie in some ways can feel like a
hell comes to frog town or something like genre
movie, like futuristic thing with like weird.
That's just kind of fun. Throw away like exploitation
thing. But the fact of that craft being in there
all the time, visually and whatever, like it
clues you into this thing of like, it is not
just that cheesy, goofy fuck off thing. Like
this is a movie that somebody is putting a huge
amount of like detail and effort into to. come
up with this product and this is like completely
intentional and it's because it's somebody who's
trying to say everything it's not somebody who's
trying to like have a fun time and confuse you
like he is trying very hard to make a very clear
statement about absolutely everything that like
is exactly like where he's like i got it all
figured out i'm just gonna explain it to you
right now and it's like that's You can't explain
it. You're tripping. That's all. You're almost
there. You're like, no, no, I got it. And it's
like, no, you don't have it. You've seen the
future. Yeah. You don't realize you have, but
you're putting it out there. You're telegraphing
it. Because, yeah, let's get into what some of
this movie is actually talking about or doing.
This is very clearly a movie that sets up a world
that is actually just very similar to the one
we live in. Yeah. Right? It's just a sci -fi
or a modern society. It's just like any other
sci -fi movie where you present something that
is aesthetically otherworldly or whatever but
really it's just talking about the world you
live in like it's talking about class and class
disparity and elites and the boredom of those
elites and how they make the proletariat their
playthings. They become apathetic. They become
apathetic. They don't have any interest in breeding
or reproduction. Or they rebel against their
own elite class or whatever, and they don't have
any interest in reproduction, and they're all
gender neutral, basically. I don't know that
they're totally gender neutral. They're more
androgynous, and they all wear the same type
of clothing. I think the men aren't. Well, there
is more of a hive mind thing going on, and they
are all just kind of like... I think the point
I'm trying to make is I think it's more feminine.
I don't think it's so much a loss of masculine
and feminine. I think that their society is feminine.
Feminine based on our definition of femininity.
I think in their society, there is no masculine
and feminine anymore, basically. Once you don't
have sex and procreation and everyone's thinking
the same and wearing the same clothes, then there
is no gender dynamic. But that's because they've
exported masculinity. I guess you're right, though.
I mean, you have to look at it in the context
of our world and our definitions of these things.
That society is incredibly feminine. And based
on the power of the mind and stuff like that.
All the masculine energy is out there. Outside
of the bubble. Outside of the bubble. And they
live in a feminized liberal bubble in which everything's
handled through democracy. And basically just
conversations among the women about what's happening
with this person and how they actually feel and
judging these people. This is not handled through
force or power. It's handled through the hens
chatting about the thing and then pecking the
guy to death for speaking out. There is an element
of force. There is an element of force, which
you could argue is a topping from the bottom
thing. But I would say... the moment where friend
gets destroyed is like absolutely forced. Like
they all gang up on him and they like rape him
mentally. And like, yeah, but it's, it's a, it's
a, it's a Louis CK. It's a, it's a feminine attack
with no violence. Just like. We're all psychically
speaking to each other about how bad you are
and shunning you and destroying you. Saying you're
a renegade and you're canceled. You're canceled,
canceling, canceling, renegade, renegade. You're
going to grow older. Yeah, because watching the
second time during all these parts and seeing
what this society is, I was like, actually, it's
pretty prescient. it feels like it's actually
more like our society now than the society of
the early seventies. Yeah. Well, he was seeing
ahead. Yeah. Yeah. It feels really like this
is where this goes. This is where this ultra
liberalism goes. And this is where like, this
is what happens if you have these things completely
polarized. Got an anti -natalist feminized bubble
society. And then you've got rape and murder
and guns and penises. Like, you know, and. I
think it's brilliant because it works in that
masculine -feminine way, but it also works in
the sociopolitical way of just how America deals
with third -world countries and whatnot. But
I love the idea of America being the woman and
third -world countries being the man and stuff.
Well, the man represents just the primitive,
archaic, brutal ways of our past. Isn't that
what the man represents, though? In real life?
In some ways, yeah. I guess so. I mean, we can
get into a conversation about gender dynamics,
I guess, but I believe there's a lot of fluid
fluidity to gender for sure. I think there's
truth to that. But like, I also think there are
men and women and there is sex and there's behavior
and like behaviors aren't all defined by our
biology and our genetics. They're defined by
society as well. And yeah, I mean, you can make
an argument that like. Part of what they're actually
doing in this movie is indoctrinating him and
assimilating him to their culture. That's a huge,
that's a huge part of the movie. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, that's a whole part of the ending. Sean Connery
is being like emasculated the whole movie. Yeah.
And stuff like that. He's being emasculated and
subjugated and, and pasteurized and, you know,
and seduced, um, by the society. But there's
the, there's the, it's the, you know, the Alexander's
soldiers. They say it in the movie. Um, but.
When Alexander's soldiers went and conquered
the Middle East, they all came back with Middle
Eastern wives. It's like when you conquer a place,
you become that too. The culture seeps into you.
And by the end, when his people come in and destroy
it, they're all calling for him and he's run
off with the woman. He's not living the masculine.
sort of life of just rape and murder and whatever
he's now been seduced somewhat by this feminized
you know way of life that's she she changes him
but he changes her too She does. Because that's,
I mean, and that's really the thing. Like the
movie is very much about just like two genders
coming together and starting a family. Like that's
the end sequence of them just getting older and
the kid and whatever. It's like, it's actually
like, it's so cheesy. It's just so funny. It's
just the gender war until you like do your God
given duty to make a child grow old and die together.
You know, it's kind of like, it's a very straightforward
ending of just kind of like, yeah. then you know
that's what you both wanted then it shows the
cave painting with the gun which is just like
such a great enigmatic last shot that reminds
me of like Koyaanisqatsi and it's obviously like
modeled after the first like cave paintings like
the oldest cave paintings that were discovered
or whatever the hands and whatever yeah the mark
of the artist the mark of the artist all day
7th plays The what? Well, Beethoven's seventh
place. Yes. Yes. For the, for the 30th time.
It's the best. That's, that's worth mentioning
honorably. Just how much I love Beethoven's seventh.
The best. And like, don't care how overused it
is in movies. Yeah. Yeah. I was saying maybe
my favorite is, I'm pretty sure it's the end
of Bay of Angels, but it's, it's one of the Jacques
Demy movies. But it's just like every time I
hear that, I think of this thing with like people
walking by each other and like everything coming
together in this moment. Like, I don't know.
Yeah. And it's great. And it's great in Love
Exposure. Oh, yeah. Love Exposure during the
Corinthian speech is maybe the best one. Maybe
the best one. I mean, her Corinthian speech in
that movie is the best Corinthian speech. Well,
that's kind of like when I fell in love with
Beethoven's Seventh is after watching Love Exposure.
Yeah. I don't know why. That was the one that
did it for me. But I was just like. Love Exposure's
whole soundtrack is amazing. yeah it's also just
like there's so many animes too like it's it's
a lot of you know the lower budget things that
can't afford their own soundtracks use beethoven
seven it's like yeah well it's better than anything
you would have done yeah exactly but if i ever
made a movie i would probably use beethoven seventh
at some point or at least if i had a movie career
but i don't We're just trying to make a career
out of talking about movies. You can play Beethoven
7th over the episode if you want. Over the whole
thing. That would actually be really great. Might
just have to use that track for this episode.
We can get away with that one. You can probably
find a free one. But yeah, I mean, that was the
whole movie. That's what the movie's saying,
and it's all pretty clear, especially on second
viewing. tying it to that time politically and
like just all those movies at that time where
i mean i think i think like when when we're thinking
about the political aspects of that time whatever
it reminds me a little bit of shampoo you know
what i mean with it's true with its masculine
feminine liberal conservative sort of divide
what's interesting i think is in in zardoz the
women really are neoconservatives kind of the
the i mean at least fring is um arthur fring
But what he's doing is he's creating a false
God for the masses to like push them in a specific
direction and like control. Like he's doing the
first chapter from morals and dogma. He's doing
that. You know, the masses must be guided like
the, like the bullet in the gun. And otherwise
it's just, he's creating a religion for them
and whatever. It's like an ideology. It does
speak about religion and the structure of religion
in a really interesting way. Totally. Religion
and all ideologies, though. Yeah, exactly. They
have a religion, too, that revolves around their
immortality in the tabernacle. Right. I mean,
calling it the tabernacle, that's where the Ark
of the Covenant was. Right. That's the connection
between God and man. But yeah, the idea that
they actually have this true religion, which
is this eternal... like scientific thing you
know yeah but the thing is they're also they're
also um just a bunch of transhumanist like uh
techno utopians no you're right they actually
have an ai system that kind of like runs their
society yeah they're all subjugated by the ai
system they don't have authority over the computer
the computer the you know yeah and this this
is post 2001 so it kind of gets into our previous
conversation about like just like the dehumanization
that this society exists and in in the 2001 episode
with right stuff we were we were talking about
that i was talking about the feminization of
society and whatnot you're like well i don't
know that it's really a feminization right but
this is kind of the idea that i'm talking about
where we're talking about more of a pasteurization
more of a domestication um to fit into a technolized
society and stuff and i think that it's i think
that zardoz is One of the brilliant things about
it is tying that to feminism. I think that it
does a really great job of connecting those ideas
and showing kind of the inherent connection between
them. That like what we're talking about with,
I mean, basically like the gender dynamics, I
think are very interesting. If you had a society
that was an all male dominated society that actually
was run by the patriarchy, what would that look
like? I think it would look a lot like what happens
outside of the dome, outside of the vortex. What
it is, is it's power, and it's going out and
riding horses and getting guns and raping women
and taking what's yours and taking over towns.
It's just violence and power. And then what is
a purely feminine society? It is protection.
It is safety, security, consensus. social the
social aspect is the primary like path to justice
and that the thing that is in control is a you
know purely objective passionless machine that
provides security and safety and and eternal
safe like you know what i mean there's and and
no death and no suffering right like it is the
the room at the end of 2001 a space odyssey or
whatever But I think that what that brings up
is, like, which of those two societies are we
closer to in our society? You know what I mean?
Like, our society post, like, 60s, at least.
And I would say post... industrial revolution
post like agricultural revolution even is a far
more feminine and it is continually getting far
more feminized far more pasteurized far more
domesticated in a way that that is created for
women to feel more comfortable and safe and be
able to feel safe with children and reproduction
and these like i don't know and that's that power
structure comes from that. And in our society,
the real power structure is far more based on
the consensus opinions and that sort of social
aspect of things that it is like the strongest
person is going to win. Yeah, might makes right.
Yeah, might makes right is not a thing that works
in society because if you go out and you kill
someone, then you go to jail. Well, it doesn't
work in a global capitalist society. Of course.
Those laws are being tested right now. Global
capitalism, I would say, is the vortex. That's
what I'm saying. The vortex is all of that. I
think that is what's missing in this movie. I
think it's a post -capitalist world. There isn't
money. They have all their needs met. They've
come to the final. I think this is probably the
only argument. against the movie i could make
is that i think i've even talked to you about
this before on this podcast but the idea that
like most acts of conquest and violence and destruction
were motivated by very practical things and not
necessarily like your religion or your ideology
right like the crusades weren't like weren't
really The Crusades weren't really about an ideology,
a religious ideology. That was just a smokescreen.
That was just a cover story to explain something
very dark and banal that the actual motive was
that they can't deal with. This is the same with
so many things, right? Like, what's his name?
Luigi. who killed the CEO. Luigi Mangione. We
all love the philosophical idea of this piece
of shit whose whole life has been sucking money
out of sick and dying people to feed his fat
family. We love the idea of that ideology losing
and this ideology winning or whatever. but really
like Luigi Mangione was probably like, I think
we found out now that he, like his dick didn't
work or something. Like it's, there was like,
he had his own weird psychological thing that
like he had to go out and commit some act of
violence. And it really, yes, it could be interpreted
as this whole philosophical thing, but people
don't act on a whole philosophical things. People
act on like, I'm a weird, sick, twisted person
for this reason. And I need to like satisfy that.
He absolutely turned it like whether or not,
you know, whether you believe Louie Mangione
actually did it or not, like, and what his motives
were, because like the trial hasn't happened
yet. We don't know everything, but like. It was
a very premeditated attack. He wrote stuff on
the bullets. He left Monopoly money in the bag
in Central Park. It felt methodical and almost
Joker -like. Totally, totally. You don't plan
something like that when you're a healthy person
who has a philosophy to get across. No, no, sure.
Obviously, everyone, that's why he's so popular
and no one gives a shit that this guy died because
everyone basically feels that way. Everybody
feels that way, but nobody kills that guy except
for him. Because you wouldn't just act on that
unless you had everything else fucked up in your
life. some bullshit like he had a he had like
a broken back or something he had like a back
problem that he had chronic pain or whatever
and yeah it's like that can drive you absolutely
mad right and up the wall and then you're just
like the only thing my life is not worth living
unless i could do something right that's like
the most insane thing yeah and that's the crusades
too is like i'm sure plenty of people were out
there for god right but like really they're out
there because it's like there's a bunch of middle
eastern women that i can rape and like whatever
it's like i'm doing this for god and whatever
it's like You're murdering towns and raping people
to death. Or like the reason for the slave trade
and stuff. It has nothing to do with racism.
It's because you need to produce lots of sugar
for British people. Right. And so you have to
create racism to legitimize the slave trade.
Yeah, exactly. Because you can't just be like,
well, it's just for money. I mean, that's right.
Then there's no, like, there's no faith. There's
no God. You used to be able to do that, right?
You used to be able to do that in ancient Rome
and be like, look, we conquered them. They're
fucking our slaves. Fuck them. But in America,
we had the idea of the freedom of the individual.
And that doesn't align with the idea of enslaving
an individual. So how do we... quell that cognitive
dissonance how do we make that line up well we
decide they're not people they're not people
that's then we come up with this science that
create the racist ideology right to like justify
something that is contradictory to your your
beliefs right so that you can do the thing that's
contradictory to your beliefs yeah like that's
why like you know the catholic church who believe
in the teachings of jesus christ can like murder
and rape and pillage like And whatever, just
like, well, this isn't actually like, this is
God's will. And like, this is actually a purge
that will lead to more like, you know, whatever.
They just like have all these rationalizations.
Right. And that's always how like genocides,
like that's like with Israel today and whatever,
you know, whatever. If you don't want to call
it a genocide, that's fine. And ethnic cleansing,
but this like, this, there's a lot. If you don't
want to call it a genocide, that's fine. A holocaust.
A holocaust, yeah. An ethnic cleansing. I could
use another word to say even a worse thing. There's
a lot of ideological rationalizations for doing
what they're doing. The Holocaust did not come
out of phrenology. Yeah. Phrenology came out
of the need. for a Holocaust. We need to justify
the Holocaust. Oh, here it is. They've actually
been doing this for hundreds of years for knowledge.
It works. That's like someone's racist belief,
like Hitler's or whatever, then he funnels funding
into scientists who can verify his belief. Right.
Which is what the transhumanists are doing now
and stuff in America. Lots of these people funneling
things to their weird belief systems. And then,
I mean, I think what's the other getting back
to the movie, I think what's really interesting
in Zardoz is that all of this is undone to that,
like that, that Zardoz is a false God, but that
the guy. who created Zardoz is also like, he
thinks he's in charge, but he's not even in charge.
The last scene where, where Zed says to him,
like, yeah, but I've seen the thing that gives
you your orders and you are nothing like, you
know, that's an awesome scene. Like, yeah, but
also the thing that gives him his orders is just
a fucking computer. And Zed has now been. seduced
by that computer like you know what i mean he's
he's now become a part of the evil that he has
conquered too like and he now believes in the
god that they believed in yeah which which like
whether it's like ai or anything else like it's
just a system it's a system of technology that
controls our society even before computer technology
and ai like the industrial revolution and all
the technological advancements that came out
of that dictated the way everyone had to fucking
act in our society exactly You know what I mean?
It's not the other way around. It's not like,
you know, we don't have control over what technology
does or where it goes. There's too many actors
involved and not any one person who creates technological
advancements actually in control. Right. Like
the Oppenheimer thing. Right. You know? Right.
Like this will just be wrought upon the world.
Someone will make it. If it's not me, it will
be someone else because like we're not actually
in control. this is like a self -fulfilling prophecy
and this system is what controls everything.
And you actually like can't escape it until it
like destroys itself or whatever. Yeah. And like
the system basically dictates that he, I don't
know, in a way it feels like the system, uh,
the AI system in the movie that it's, it is controlling
everything all along. And its agenda is actually
to bring the genders back together and like,
like, equalize the polarity. It's trying to balance
out the equation. It's almost the exact same
movie as the Matrix sequels, right? I mean, it's
almost the same movie as End of Evangelion, too.
There's so many things that, like, I mean, I
saw so many fucking things in Evangelion when
I was watching it this time. I was just like,
oh, definitely, Anno must actually love this
movie. I feel like in Japan, sometimes they get
shit and they don't get any of the, like, connotations
that we get. So, like, things are successful
over there that are huge failures over here.
Zora's might be one of those. It's like, in Japan,
it's huge. Every anime got... i love zordos it's
like maybe not i have no idea but they're the
room with the with the bodies there looks so
much like the ray room there's the end one is
like do you want to become one with me i don't
want to become one with you i will not become
one with you and whatever it's like it's it's
very like the end of the series like shinji will
you become one with us to be one mind and body
it's the same yeah psychic torture thing and
everything it's it's yeah Um, but it's also,
yeah, very much like the matrix was like, well,
there's the, the, the two sides of the equation
and actually like the computer just made you
Neo as a part of the equation that just brings
the equation back together and resets it so that
we can then get back to this thing. Like in the
end, when he's having the family, it's like.
Well, in another 500 years, we'll probably get
back to the gender divide thing. Like, you know,
it's just we've finally returned. It's a Mary
and Joseph thing, too, and creating, like, the
Christ figure or something like that. They give
birth to, like, the new generation that is the
mixture of their two worlds. Exactly. And the
coming together of those two worlds. And I love
what the women's world, like, introduces to him.
Like, when he learns all the things from the
tabernacle. And he's like, they're like, now,
you know, all that we know and we want your seed.
It's like, we'll trade you. We'll give you all
of our like society and knowledge and whatever.
And you give us your dick. It's kind of the trade
off. It's very funny. It's so interesting how
attracted they are to him. Yeah. And then like
how, how attracted, uh, Charlotte Rampling is
to him too. We just will not accept it. And she
hates it. And she just needs so badly to deny
it and whatever. And just like, Yeah, how, like,
sex is just a big part of it with the whole erection
scene. Yeah. And how, like, the boobs, like,
you show, like, clean boobs, dirty wrestling
girls. Neither of those things give him an erection.
Not the clean girls, not the dirty girls. But
then the woman being uncomfortable in front of
him. The woman being uncomfortable in front of
him starts to turn him on. And he's not turned
on by the apathetic. He, like, tries to get busy
with the apathetic and is like, this is just
a rag doll. I'm not interested. He needs a girl
who's going to, like, fight back a little bit
or something or feel a little uncomfortable yeah
like it's uh he wants to conquer yeah he wants
to conquer and she wants to be conquered that's
why they're all like enter enter please we're
trying to bring you in he's not raping her he's
not conquering her it's a consensual thing he's
not like going hard or anything they have a kid
like they become equals or whatever like it's
but it is still it is still them accepting him
into their into their dome is like the vagina
accepting the penis into the into the thing and
it's creating this new thing but through a destruction
through a conquering through it like it's it
is all it's he is destroying the society the
penetrating sperm comes into the egg and like
changes the thing yeah yeah and his sperm is
also the guns and the death and the because because
it's yeah the other thing that i think is really
interesting the gun is good the penis is evil
that's i think that's a really interesting concept
um actually that like When we're talking about
the agricultural revolution, the industrial revolution,
like whatever, like through all of human history,
the creation of life has been a inherent good.
Right. Like that's it's just like you're that's
that's good for the you're creating more life.
That is like nobody is mad at you for creating
more life or whatever. However, like now we have
an overpopulation problem, arguably that people
want to, you know, claim that we don't or whatever.
And scarcity is not real and all that kind of
stuff. If you wanted to have a nomad society
in which people wander around, how many square
miles does each person need to feed themselves?
Each person needs 10 square miles or something
of roaming space in order to forage or whatever.
If you then have an agricultural revolution,
then you can have a farm and you can have far
more food and less space. And more people. More
people in less space and sustain larger populations.
And as you continue to gain more and more of
this technology, you can have more people in
less space. But at a certain point, like you
have so many people in so little space. And like
we the argument is like, no, we could have even
more people in less space. And it's like, well,
I understand that. But we're also talking about
more domestication. We're talking about like
people being able to be happy living in a. Tiny
space and they don't roam around anywhere. Right.
And there's no traveling and no... Right. And
if you took somebody from one of these ancient
nomadic tribes and you put them into a desk job,
they would absolutely kill themselves. It would
be like putting a tiger in a cage that is just
walking back and forth until they're... It's
psychic torture to live in that way. Yeah, exactly.
But... Over time, we've been domesticated and
be like attuned to a unnatural way of life that
is more safe and more secure and more domestic
and I mean, more feminized and whatnot. However,
that roaming thing, that masculine energy of
the conquering and the roaming, that's the thing
that is becoming less and less. So when you say
the world can handle more people, this is true.
It can handle more feminine people. It can handle
more domesticated people. It cannot handle more.
conquerors of territories it cannot handle more
alexanders um you can't have you know a thousand
zeds wandering around in the streets of you know
whatever it is yeah but i think what's really
interesting is is in the beginning of the movie
there at what point there's some at some point
in the movie they're talking about Notice the
beginning of the movie, Zardoz is telling him
like the penis is bad. It spreads seeds and pollutes
the earth with more people and blah, blah, blah.
Like the idea of. Because it takes those people
out and like manages the population. And the
idea that like you have to introduce a religion
to reverse that or whatever. There's a thing
that for the entirety of human history, that
was good. And that at a certain point, you're
going to hit a point where making more people
is no longer good. Like that sex takes the place
of violence and violence takes the place of sex.
That is when you hit a certain level of the population,
love and sex and kindness and beauty are the
evil things. And that death and violence and
destruction and whatever, those are the good
things. You know, if you, if you come to a point
in society where that happens, it actually is
like, Oh no, like everybody, like all of the
worst people in our history. would be the best
people now. Like if it's like, if the idea is
like creating as much life and allowing as many
people to live as possible, like it's, it's great
that, you know, we've, we fed all these people
in sub -Saharan Africa or that we, Andrew Carnegie
made a, you know, whatever. Like there are all
these good, positive things for the world, but
every positive thing then becomes a negative
thing. Those guys are the bad guys because they
have overpopulated the world. And actually the
best guy in the world is like, You know, Attila
the Hun or somebody, anybody creating a genocide
is better than feeding a population. Well, what
you're arguing for is moral relativism. Yeah.
Which is like, you know, you can argue that either
way. I think it's like that's a that's a tough
one to breach because, yeah, it's like I do think
that there are sort of eternal moral codes. And
I don't know that like. Well, you need religion
for that. Sure. But I think just based on. physiology
like being a human being and knowing how other
human beings feel like just basically the jesus
teachings like i get that that's religion but
it's also based on such a logical concept that
like but that's what i'm saying the logic of
the concept like when bad things are happening
to you you know those are bad things that is
baked into the universal code that like people
never feel good when they're being raped or murdered
or subjugated or like not allowed to move freely
or whatever. This has always been the case. And
people always feel good when they're coming.
Yeah. And people always feel good when they're
coming. One is a universal good and one is a
universal bad. I like, I get that. However, like
the logic part of it, when you say the logic
part of it, like that logic does flip. If you're
if you're talking about a purely AI algorithmic,
logical understanding of morality, like you need
a religion that's like you should be nice to
people. Otherwise, the tabernacle is going to
say, how do we need to we need all of us to die?
And then we need a savage to come in and inseminate
the women and then like we can reset and blah,
blah, blah. But there's a there's a. point where
like the logical hal 9000 thing is just like
oh no no no coming is no longer good like coming
has always felt and been good but now we know
that the only good thing is genocide you know
what i mean it's like that's that's a crazy leap
but sure yeah that is a leap that is connected
to the anti -natalism in the united states today
Like, you know what I mean? Anytime that somebody's
saying like. But that also sounds like the leap
any leader has to take to justify genocide too.
It's like we've gotten to a point where like.
There's too many of this. There's too many of
this. And this is untenable. It's unsustainable
and whatever. But this is what people say when
they say like children are just pollution. And
like, look at all these people having these fucking
kids. It's just pollution and blah, blah, blah.
And people in our generation aren't having kids.
And they're not thinking about the future because
they don't have the like. And then you have the
poor people, like, who are just having 30 children.
That is the inside the dome, outside the dome
divide of, like, that's where... It does remind
me of Elysium a little bit. Like, honestly, Elysium,
like, draws from Zardoz, like, pretty clearly.
That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's more
based on a... medicine sort of side of things
but well sure like it ends up talking about like
universal health care basically it's a it's a
problematic universal health care it's not like
it's not as nuanced as zardoz or it's making
a very clear like partisan statement or whatever
you made the argument that maybe it was more
nuanced that maybe the ending was ironic and
it made me want to maybe revisit it because when
I watched that fucking movie the ending of that
just pissed me off so much you did not think
about this two minutes it's hard to believe that
it wouldn't be sincere since he was a person
who like I mean District 9 was about apartheid
in africa right and like that worked for that
movie and that didn't feel too preachy because
it like was only it wasn't that was only the
setting and it didn't feel like it needed to
make such a big statement about it because just
like yeah of course the heroes are people who
are living in an apartheid state and we're just
with them right and we're like really happy to
see them get out of the situation and escape
and go home right And to be befriended by a guy
who used to be a part of the state, but is now
transforming into one of you and like has to
relate to you because of that. It's such a simple,
effective formula, that movie. And it works so
well. But like Elysium does feel like he went
too far and he's like, now I got to make this
statement about how, you know, the. the like
the poor and tired masses need universal health
care so that like there can what be just like
immortals living all over the earth i think that's
like part of the ai is like calculus and zardoz
is like you can't just make all the brutals immortal
you can't just like you know what i mean like
they can't like it's a it's a very like small
society of immortals it's like very in check
and when immortals step out of bounds they become
renegades or apathetics I mean, apathetics is
not a punishment that just happens. Like you're
either punished and you become a renegade or
you just become, you win and become an apathetic.
Yeah. That's the, that's the, like, it's the
last scene of 2001. It's the, it's him sitting
in the room and it's just like, all of your needs
are met. And like, so there's nothing to do or
care about. And I love that. I love when friend
is, uh, um, explaining to him basically like,
yeah, this is why we made you like do all the
farming is because you need to feed these people.
It's just kind of like, that is. That is like,
yeah, this is why we're like attacking, like,
I don't know. This is why we're taking over the
middle East is in order to let this suburban
mom drive an SUV to fucking, you know? Yeah,
that's true. That is just kind of like a metaphor
about that, that like we, like the destruction
that we create and the exploitation that we engage
in is insane for what it justifies, like the
lifestyle that it justifies for a consumer nation.
basically yeah you know so that people can stay
at home and enjoy their uber eats and watch netflix
it's like the amount of people that need to die
every day for that is absurd and like impossible
to justify like but that's the way i guess it's
arguable that the people need to die for it but
i guess like that kind of that is like the that
has the paradox at the center of being american
or part of any first world imperialistic Nobody
wants to run the, what do they call it? The zone
outside, outside the dome. Nobody wants to. That's
why Arthur Fring's in charge of it. They're like,
nobody wanted to run it. He's running it and
he's an artist and he's doing it. And it's like,
yeah, nobody wants to do that. It's like, nobody
wants to be the one, you know, in the Middle
East doing the thing. It's gotta be done. Yeah.
Nobody wants to hear about it really. And it's
just. We'll let the mercenaries go in there and
do the thing. They're not even working for the
US government, so they can really do whatever
the fuck to actually get it done and get Elon
Musk rich, basically. It's so indefensible. That's
why we just kind of want some men to come in
and destroy it. And the apathetics don't rise
up against the elite. Not even the renegades
rise up against the elite. No, no, no. But the
brutals who... enter from outside they just start
killing everybody but that's that's because Zardoz
does that for them like the whole like Zardoz
creates this and Zardoz makes him kill Zardoz
and then Zardoz brings him to there and like
the whole thing is that he is creating the revolution
on purpose and not even to subjugate the revolution
but to lose to the revolution and he doesn't
know that like I think in the end he's like Yeah,
but I know what you were taking orders from,
too. This is not his planet. He's just another
pawn. He's just another pawn. He's just an operator
for the Tabernacle, the AI program. Which is
John Borman. Yeah, yeah. Which is the creator
of the film. So it is all explained in the first
line. Oh, completely. You know? It's just you
don't have enough context to understand it or
whatever. Which is why it's such a weird way
to fucking start it. But it does give you this,
like... I feel like if you were watching the
movie without that introduction, you might watch
the beginning and be like, oh, this is, and then
it gets to a certain point where you're like,
oh, I'm pissed about this now. Like, this is
cheesy now. I thought this was going to be. That
really does set the tone in a way. It does set
the tone where it makes you accept the cheesiness.
I don't know. You got anything else on Zardoz?
I think we might have really covered it well.
I think we did. Yeah. I have to pee really bad,
though. Yeah, me too. All right, let's take a
break. So we're going to take a break, and we're
going to pick another movie to watch, and we're
going to watch it, and then we're going to come
right back. We'll be back after another one.
Yep. We'll let you know what we did. Okay, we're
back. We chose AI. You would already know that
if you're listening to this because it's in the
title. We didn't know that, at least. Yeah, we
didn't know that at the time. After the conversation
about Zardoz, we had a smoke, chatted over for
a little while, and then something started to
nag at us. We started to think that there was
definitely some other movie. Well, there's the
part of Zordos we didn't talk about. In the first
part, we totally didn't mention the whole fact
that this is all based on the Wizard of Oz book
interpretation thing. We were trying to figure
out what is the other movie where the whole thing
is revealed to be based on some sort of 20th
century book. We couldn't figure it out, basically.
It took a little while. I don't even know if
it was AI in the end that was that thing. I feel
like there's still another one that we're not
remembering. I feel like there is another one
where there's a moment where they wipe the dust
off of some book and you see the title and it's
like, oh my god, it's all been this. I guess
there's kind of that in the subway in one of
the Planet of the Apes movies where they wipe
the thing aside and you realize that it's...
actually it feels like that kind of reveal so
you might be conflating it with other things
but like i don't know i feel i feel you man i
feel like that's something that's in my brain
somewhere too yeah but ai came up just because
we were thinking about the this concept and we
kind of just decided that that would be an interesting
one to pair and as we're watching ai kind of
was like well yeah the fucking the pinocchio
thing like the the whole you know, Pinocchio
thing is already there, like in the first chapter
of the movie or whatever, like it happens in
the first act. So it's not really just this big
reveal that it was all based on this. So I don't
know. I don't think it fits. I don't think that
was the same. I don't think that was the one
that we were thinking of, but it totally works
as a great pairing. I think, well, it's interesting
to, yeah, kind of talk about them in relation
to one another. Um, these like book reveals,
because in the, in Zardoz, it is a reveal that
he like discovered the wizard of Oz. It was actually
revealed that he was led to discover the Wizard
of Oz. Right, right. And whatever. That Zardoz
literally comes from the name Wizard of Oz. It's
derived from it. And just learning the whole
truth about the wizard just being this regular
guy who hides behind all this kind of showy...
Like a simulated reality. Like a facade. Like
a facade, yeah. That makes him seem more powerful
than he really is. Right. And behind that, it's
just some sort of banal dude. And I think that
like, it's interesting to use that in Zardoz
because like that is kind of like this base revelation
of Wizard of Oz that like is basically made into
a fractal in that movie. Like the way that like
acid turns like anything into sort of like a
fractal where it's like, you know, a reflection
of a reflection of a reflection that all like
means this, like seeing that it's the Wizard
of Oz in the end is like, oh, well, that's actually.
was the base idea that foreman was just tripping
out on basically and like made a whole movie
about where like every aspect of it is like oh
well behind this guy is another guy behind that
is another guy and there's always another conspiracy
another bigger thing and then in the end you're
in the conspiracy and you know that it's buying
into the thing that you were fighting against
and everything's compromised and everybody's
on the take and it's i don't know but i think
it's like i i like that use of that wizard of
oz idea just sort of fractalized. And so I think
it's kind of different in this movie. Well, it's
like Pinocchio in AI. The story isn't something
that serves to break the fantasy of David's life.
It's something that reinforces the fantasy of
his life. You know, he's not a real boy. He is
a machine. And his, his belief in this thing
that is not real is like what, arguably makes
him human in the end or whatever makes him transcend
or is at least the thing in his programming that
makes him so no it's like a false religion that
he's been presented right the pinocchio idea
is very much the way that zardoz is like the
false religion for zed and stuff you know what
i mean that makes him go out and kill and what
does that get when he like you know When he destroys
that religion and completely gets rid of that
whole system, he's just assimilated by another
one. Right. Of course. Because behind that was
another mass. He rebels against the system, but
there's just another layer after that. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Until in the end, he just strips
it down to just family and reproduction. Which
is ultimately what the system wants to do to
you. I mean, it's what the system needs for itself
at that point and stuff. It's like the system
is, I don't know. collapsing while continuing
on this sort of one -sided paradigm it needs
the the reintroduction of that sort of savagery
and life but i think the story in ai like also
does resemble that in a lot of ways this this
whole thing about this system that kind of has
control over things it's not as explicit maybe
but I think it's made explicit pretty early on
where they like, there's, they have to limit
births and like, you know, that's, that's part
of the living in a post apocalyptic period in
a way. And yeah. And they, they like have to
maintain this equilibrium and not continue to
grow and whatever. So like they have to limit
births and they have to therefore like quell
this, these desires, these sexual desires. There's,
you know, the sex spots that are created for
these things. But there's also this new concept
of this child bot. And that, I think, is the
sickest, most twisted fucking concept. You were
saying... It's incredibly problematic. Yeah.
Honestly, when you think about it. And you were
saying, like, reading the trivia or whatever,
that Spielberg claimed... That the story is that
Kubrick really wrote the, like, first... and
the third act of the movie, essentially, but
the middle sort of act of him on his journey
with the flesh fair and the sex city, what's
it called? Rouge City. Rouge City, yeah, yeah,
Rouge City. That whole part of it was Spielberg.
And I think that that stuff is a lot of kind
of... explicit um violence and sexuality and
whatnot but i think that the really really fucked
up and disturbing stuff in this movie is in the
beginning and and like you know what i mean that's
like the the it's the ironic kubrick like thing
yeah i mean i was i was saying this whole watch
through man that like this is a fucking horror
movie this is terrifying terrifying it's terrifying
the whole beginning we're like yeah she's the
kids first, they're just like following around
and being weird. It's just like, dude, this is
so fucking gross. Like, well, like I think that
what's really interesting about that is like
the reason that she is given this kid is because
she has this kid who's dying or whatever. Like
it should be dead essentially. But, like, she
can't mourn for him because he's not actually
dead because he will theoretically someday be
coming back when, you know, science advances
to the point where they can cure this thing or
whatever. And so, like, the natural sort of flow
of, like, the emotional reality of, like, parenthood
or whatever, like, is being totally disrupted
by this modern convenience. Like, it's not like
a horrible, like... it's like it's great that
they can help this kid or whatever you know what
i mean but she has this human thing that needs
to be sort of quelled and it's like either she
can get over this or she cannot but this thing
is like a sort of stop gap you know what i mean
the idea of this i mean the idea of this child
as presented in the movie at least is like presented
as this sort of stop gap for the suffering and
this suffering is something that's like completely
this like modern, technolized society problem
of, like, the... Not allowing people to let things
go and kind of, like, always leading them on
with these supposed solutions and technological
advancements and whatever. Right, right. And,
like, while those may provide the thing that
we want, it's also, like, completely unnatural
and impossible to, like, emotionally deal with
as a human being. You know what I mean? Like,
it's... I don't know. Just like the, like, I
don't know, just hospitals and death and things.
Like, I don't know, just like the idea of like.
Just like in Zardoz, you know, like those immortals
and everything, they like also kind of reach
that place of apathy and boredom because of that,
like, you know. Totally. There's a certain disconnect
with the actual reality of life. Yeah, there's
like a similarity between the societies, even
though it's much more like extreme in Zardoz
or whatever. I mean, you see a society that's
clearly a couple factions, one that is really,
like, relatively open arms to AI and robots being
a part of their life and world, and then a faction
of people who think they're just like Satan and
they need to be destroyed. But, like, nobody
agrees that they're actually sentient. Like,
it's a world where, like, we hate the AI and
we hate the machine. well i mean or we love the
machine but like we know it's a we know it's
a machine like you know you know it's a machine
like you can't accept that it's sentient or that
it loves the thing is that occasionally people
in this movie are seduced by the machine of course
yeah and like in the moment that like that seduction
is like that's the whole thing often in this
movie it's women who are seduced by by the little
girl and yeah it's it's like every man in this
movie basically is like This is bullshit. So
you think this connects to your gender dynamic
idea in Zardoz? This is still the feminine society.
I mean, the most masculine people were the ones
killing those robots. They're like cowboys out
there. They're like zombie hunting as far as
I'm concerned. Out on motorcycles, rounding these
guys up, doing what Zardoz does. They're getting
out their aggression and creating a spectacle
for a bunch of people. miserable and need entertainment
and want to get all this fucking vicariously
get all this yeah and they're like in that place
but it doesn't but it's interesting like brendan
gleason could have been like a um like a sleeper
agent or something like that he could have been
like working for the company and whatever and
that would have been more like interesting that
they were like keeping all these people down
with all the robot violence and shit like that
and like satiating them and all this shit But
I like the whole like getting them on both sides
sort of thing. I like the flesh fair shit. No,
yeah, the flesh fair shit's awesome. It really
perfectly captures like just how brutal human
beings can be if you dehumanize like the one
you're. Totally. But at the same time, they had
all this medieval torture stuff where they're
like pulling them apart and like pouring hot
oil on their faces. But they're not experiencing
pain and they don't like, they don't seem to
experience pain. I'm not sure I would believe,
I'm not sure I would believe they're sentient
or human or worthy of rights or any of that either.
No, but I mean, but I mean, it's also like what
the people, what the people are experiencing
is not people like. experiencing pain you're
not watching a robot being like ah it hurts they're
like you're watching robots getting the real
thing like seem like a person and then as soon
as they're ripped apart it's like oh shit they
don't even care they're just they're just like
smiling as their head goes off like it's like
i mean they don't want to die theoretically but
it's very yeah i mean i mean it's like watching
monster trucks i guess or something like it's
still like entertainment but maybe and like football
you know like football could be way more brutal
and intense and violent but like We still get
all that animalistic kind of energy out of us
by vicariously watching that sort of stuff. I
think the idea there's something different about
seeing the kid up there. Is it just because it's
a kid? Is it because of the way that he's acting?
Mechas don't act scared. He's programmed to be
scared, I guess. I don't know. The thing is,
I think it's interesting the way that people
react to it and like that, that there is a difference.
Like, like, I don't know that most of the people
in the audience, like that's, that's why they
throw the thing at him. Like these people in
the audience are empathetic human beings that
like, as soon as this, you know, Mecca pulls
this trick, they're like, oh, well, no, we're
not enjoying watching a child be ripped apart.
Like that's not, it's not like we're, they're
just being fooled at that point. Or are they?
Like, I think that's like the ongoing conversation
in this movie. Just like, There's a famous episode
of Star Trek that's all about whether or not
Data has sentience or whether or not he has rights.
And the episode kind of firmly comes down to
the idea that he does. And Picard wins the court
case and whatever. He argues that they can't
prove human beings are sentient either. And I
wonder how... Data is also unique and special
in the way that David theoretically thought he
was. um until the end but it's decided it's just
like a magic robot he's not you know he's not
replicable it's actually it actually is like
this the mcguffin because it's not it's like
quite possibly not a scientifically achievable
thing right to create david or a data or whatever
data yeah i don't think that's a scientifically
achievable thing i don't know david like the
thing is like i i don't i the whole time don't
believe that David is I don't empathize with
David like David is a monster he's very scary
he's creepy until the end but like he is like
he's tricking these people and they're right
and this mom is so hot but she is so dumb to
be tricked by these very basic things but that's
what people are is like we are organic machines
that respond to specific stimuli and when you're
like a woman who is experiencing the loss of
your child and you have a child like there's
there's no way that that doesn't work you know
what i mean and like i think what's i think what's
really interesting about the imprinting thing
is like do they say like don't do this until
you're completely ready because you know we have
to destroy them and whatever it'll be permanently
imprinted onto you But it's, yeah, you'll be
permanently imprinted onto him. But, like, the
real thing is, like, nah, man, it's that when
this kid acts as hard as he can and calls you
mommy, you, this person who needs this, like,
that's the thing that's irreversible. It's, like,
that's the real damage that's being done by the
activation. you know it's like what's changing
in him like i understand that in the movie there's
the idea that he does become more sentient after
that in some ways but i think that in the moment
no he's still just like a a like i want the validation
of mommy machine and that machine is just like
okay well if you're serious then we'll be serious
and do do like put in the full program and be
like mommy and look at her with the relaxed face
and like she loses that like that it's not about
that program being irreversible it's about mommy's
program being irreversible once you do this and
he says mommy that's it and she like then cannot
be rational about this and continues not to be
like it's it's very like even him being really
creepy with like a scissors by her face and whatever
blah blah it's like this is not it's very different
than if it was like a dog that like bits that's
a sentient thing that has its own experience
of the world and something like this is a video
game like and you're now obsessed with this video
game in a way that is like it's you're the only
person having an experience here like when you're
in a room with this kid like you're alone and
that's that is that is real i think well i think
it's very easy to say that he is just acting
on his programming that he is like a i want mommy's
validation machine but but aren't we all thing
is he is he is programmed to do that but he's
not necessarily programmed to not have that like
the moment she exactly let's go and whatever
then all of a sudden he doesn't have like a like
a rule book for this right so he actually does
invent his own like system of faith and whatever
that like drives him towards a goal right and
he actually does achieve that goal in the end
in like some kind of that's what's amazing dude
it's like it's because of the loss of the of
the love of his mind it's about the like that
original trauma or something that like begins
to make him. And I'm not saying make him human
because he's not human in the end. I don't think
he's human, but what he is, is a, maybe the most
important piece of art that humanity has ever
made that like really represents what we are
as a species and like lives beyond us. One of
the things that I was thinking about, like this
time is just like, I mean, i'm sure like spielberg's
read akira and stuff and like or at least scenic
like you know like he's he's pop cultural literate
but i mean he talks about it all over ready player
one you know what i mean but the the in the akira
manga where you know after tokyo 3 is destroyed
for the second time and the the robots come out
and they have that speech about like um um after
like they work on you know nuclear batteries
and they're indestructible they're they can withstand
a nuclear blast or like three nuclear blasts
or whatever they'll live forever like if the
comet hits the earth it'll like these will be
standing here protecting japan and like you know
when long after humanity's gone like they will
be the only thing that's like protecting the
like the dust that used to be humanity And that's
like that's a sick idea. It's awesome. But like
what's way cooler than that is having that be
this little boy who's missing his mom and just
wants validation and like wants to be a real
person because like literally like that's like
what else are we other than just like mommy validation
machines that then leave this womb and then go
out to the world to like try and find some way
to reproduce that like love that like. yeah perfect
love that we've lost or whatever it's yeah well
i was saying also watching it that like it's
it's it's almost like a racer head or something
it's almost like this surreal portrayal of what
it actually kind of is like to have a kid oh
yeah so like the idea that he's like weird because
he's ai well it's like well have you ever had
a kid like it gets weird and like things will
make you very uncomfortable right and like you
know i feel like in a lot of ways they're like
trying to decide whether or not to like have
an abortion right or something yeah you take
it even farther he could even be like an autistic
kid like they got a report that like he's gonna
be like really weird and it's like hard to deal
with and whatever and it's like well what should
we do and put him in the woods and then he's
just like this weird autistic kid who like just
is single -mindedly in love with you and and
taking care of him for the rest of your life
is going to be a like yeah for for a robot like
it's a that's a crazy use of yeah yeah all of
his he doesn't really seem human though because
even his stuff like where he begs for his life
and says like protect me and whatever keep me
safe like it it comes off as being very programmatic
something gets triggered But, like, at the same
time, you could say that's kind of how trauma
works and, like, all this kind of stuff. Right,
right. A kid who's, like, been through some horrible
trauma and then, like, yeah, and kids do just
make mistakes and whatever. And that's kind of,
like, if he was, like, if he was. flesh and blood
and they would just be brothers and like that
happens and he would just be the weird brother
that like his mom didn't love as much and like
abandoned because he would have destroyed their
lives like they're just like yeah using this
excuse that like he's not he's not worthy of
actual like love and he's just a property well
sure yeah maybe they're right you know like he
isn't but I think what's amazing about like the
Kubrickian -ness of the ending is like it's not
the thing of like actually he is You know what
I mean? It's like the thing of like, actually,
you're not either. You know what I mean? It's
like that sort of thing. It's like it's not like,
oh, well, he became sentient. It's just kind
of like, well, really, like you're barely even
any better than an AI program. It's like not
a I don't know, something not life affirming
about. Well, that gets to the idea that it's
not that the machine is really getting intelligent.
It's that people are getting stupider. Or that
people are just acting more like machines. That's
the whole thing with the AI thing. When AI can
do a better job of writing a script than a writer
in LA or whatever, it's like, yeah, well, that's
not because AI is any good at writing scripts.
It's because writers in LA have gotten so much
worse. If you're comparing it to something that...
It might not be their fault. It's the system.
They could write better stuff if they had time
and they were allowed to... pursue passion passionate
ideas and maybe or maybe it's just like they've
been brought up in a maybe they're all robot
people sure like you only know how to make simulacra
i can't think of new ideas as possible it's the
idea of space seed right like it's the it's the
the episode of star trek where like which you
know was really resonant with uh with zardoz
but um but the thing with what's his name Khan.
Khan. Yeah, yeah, the thing with Khan, where,
like, he's the man of the past, the great man
of the past, because back in the 20th century,
there could be great men and stuff. And, like,
he was, you know, like an Alexander the Great,
and they were too great and whatever. And then
introducing him to this world is just kind of
like, yeah, I don't know. That's what happens
in Zardoz, kind of. Yeah, in some ways it is.
Of course, in Star Trek, you know. He ends up
just being a force that has to be destroyed.
He can't be, like, allowed to live or whatever.
He's completely incompatible with the time, basically.
And no place will accept him, essentially. Whereas
in Zardoz, he gets assimilated, you know? Right.
That great madness of him, so to speak. I mean,
he's there to destroy the world, but then, like,
through that, he himself also gets assimilated.
Well, he might have also destroyed their world
because he had... a child with one of them and
that creates a new generation that's some weird
half breed or something and like starts to like
break down the immortality or something like
I don't know like it feels like a change it's
like a lot of the in an evolution or something
a lot of what the AI is the tabernacle is like
trying to do is like also understand life and
humanity in the same way that um the AI aliens
at the end of artificial intelligence do. Those
things are not organic. They're robots. Highly
advanced robots powered by AI. They seem conscious
and all this kind of stuff, but I don't think
they think they're conscious. I think that's
why they are studying humanity and really need
to know. The best they got is a facsimile. right
right a simulacrum simulacrum of humanity right
which is missing the essence but still has some
reference to i don't know i do think i do think
by the end i think that like him in that final
room when they give him i think there's something
really important about that final room where
when in 2001 it's very 2001 absolutely And similarly
to 2001, I think it's about mortality. I think
that, like, when they introduce mortality to
that situation, and he has one day, like... That
actually makes him more human, too. Yeah. Because
he knows there's a finite clock. Exactly, which
is what happens in Zardoz as well, where you
introduce mortality and then allow people to,
like, actually be alive. You know what I mean?
It's this... And that's what happens in Pinocchio
as well. Mortality is the thing that makes anything
sort of important, and that's spirituality, and
that's all of these beliefs that are beyond sort
of the ideas of an AI program or a robot that
can continue forever or a race of internals.
It's what makes life meaningful, yet. so many
of us are terrified of it and many would try
to like beat it and conquer it, you know? Um,
and you know, Elon Musk like really wants to
create like robots that we all have in our houses
that like help us out with things and whatever,
you know, it's like, there's a weird God complex
that we have. I just don't understand the fucking
like, yeah, I, I, I don't know. Elon Musk just
wants sex robots. That's probably true. And who
doesn't? He's a pervert. I don't know. I think
that would be really difficult for a lot of men.
Because I think, you know, I would probably have
a pretty hard time, like, not rolling that over
in my mind. You know what I mean? Like, if there
actually was, like, the option to have, like...
For, like, ten bucks? Well, it wouldn't be $10.
Probably expensive. Probably be outside of the
price range. Probably only very wealthy people
would afford these things for so long. I mean,
even the family in this movie that David gets
given to in a time of great post -apocalyptic
destruction. They're like the beneficiaries of
the most advanced robot on the planet. And their
house is like this multi -million dollar art
gallery or whatever. They're like these elites
that have been chosen for whatever reason. Yeah.
Yeah. And, um, where was I? Where was I going
with that? Essentially that sex robots would
always be outside of the price range of, uh,
you know, regular Joe's, but so too is like any
of these other, you know, things that Elon Musk
has promised. It's, it's the, you know, we're
going to have a split floating space stations
in outer space and we're going to bring you out
there. And it was like, no, no, I'm not going
to bring you out there. They're just going to
use your money to, like, fund some sort of shit
that, like, then doesn't do anything and makes
them more money to fund more shit. Well, sure.
Looting the government and using your tax dollars
to keep his companies afloat because they're,
like, important and... It's just through science
fiction. It's just through futurism science fiction
stuff. It's just like, okay, well, like, you
can, you know, it's the moon landing shit. It's
the, like, okay, well, like, you can prove that
somebody did this and that's... Great. What is
that actually contributing to anything other
than just spending a whole lot of money to create
a weird spectacle that then pretends like we're
on some sort of mission to populate the moon?
Well, that's very Wizard of Oz. It's about the
cover story and the smoke screen and the thing
that you're trying to convince people of, which
is not the real motive and whatever. Oh, totally.
And if you can come up with a motive that, like,
seems convincing, like, no one cares about what
the real motive is because they have one that's
convincing enough. And it might even be, like,
worse than the real motive or not, but, like,
it just all depends on perspective. Because,
like, a lot of people, I don't know, like, would
more people get angry if... you know people did
just turn around and say well the reason i'm
doing this evil thing is for money and for capitalism
and whatever is that worse than saying like i'm
doing this because i hate this person because
like i hate the color of their skin and i hate
their culture and i'm doing this because i hate
women i just really think they should be you
know kept down and whatever um i don't know you
just got me thinking though about the wizard
of oz because like because yeah yeah because
the zardoz is doing the wizard of oz thing but
i also feel like There's a little Wizard of Oz
thing going on in this movie, too, where, like,
what's his name? Dr. No, in the end. Like, behind
Dr. No, this, like, floating face or whatever
was actually Professor Alan Hobby, you know?
Professor Alan Hobby? Yeah, it's the, you know,
the William Hertz character. Okay. He's, like,
putting out this false information to guide him
towards him in the end. Yeah, like the whole
first scene in the movie, yeah. The first couple
scenes in the movie are interesting, the way
they set it up. It almost is, like, similarly
to Zardoz, where there's a kind of, like, straightforward,
like, explanation or whatever. And it's like,
the penis is bad. Yeah, yeah. We need fake children
because we can't populate the world. And here's
the solution. And it'll make a lot of money.
Yeah, yeah. That's the real thing. When you have
this kid in this house with these people, this
is basically just a metaphor for corporations
preying on your human emotions, essentially.
The ability of this AI to figure out this mother
and all of her triggers and just completely take
over her emotional reality and make her become
obsessed with it is... cunning and repulsive
and scary. Like, you know what I mean? It's a
horror movie. It's terrifying. It's like, doesn't
really make you feel good. And I think that's
the Spielbergian wool that's pulled over your
eyes because of the, the way it's presented in
a lot of ways is like that Spielbergian whimsy.
And like, there's a kind of like, it's, there's
kind of fairytale -ish nature to it. And you
sort of, he does kind of get everything he wants
in the end. So it has like, it has the saccharine
Spielberg ending vibe, even though I guess it
was Kubrick, but like, Like we've made that point
over and over that like this ending like fits
the bill and kind of being the mindchild of Kubrick
himself. This very ironic, sad, disturbing ending
that kind of is masked as this like beautiful
life affirming. thing i find it i find it beautiful
no because it kind of is and that's what's like
disturbing about it you're like ah because it's
actually convincing you like you're in the end
the movie is making you feel like he's a real
person that he has a real connection that like
there's something i don't think he needs to be
that i don't think he needs to i think that i
think that the like creation of something that's
trying to do that as like an eternal art form
is kind of like such a human thing to make. Like
it's so, it's such a useless thing. It's so much
effort is put into this. It's just somebody who
loves someone so much that they're staring at
a statue for a million years. It is also a movie
about storytelling. You know, it has a meta aspect
to it, just like Zardoz does about storytelling
and myth making and, you know, the sort of propaganda
or anti propaganda that's being presented to
you or whatever it is. Totally, totally. And
how that guides you along a path to your personality,
the creation of your personhood or whatever.
I mean, Professor Hobby, like, I mean, just like
Arthur Frayn. zardoz like he does kind of control
the situation and like he admits to losing him
at some point you know and kind of have he kind
of got off the grid for a minute but ultimately
he had all of that planned out for david right
and like in a way they were part of it was his
like he claims that like the only thing we did
was help you at this one point or whatever it
was like okay fine but you still set him loose
for what what is the project the project had
to have come after he was like let go by the
mother because that couldn't maybe they predicted
that would happen too or whatever It was all
just kind of an experiment. That's got to be
what it is. A case test. Yeah, that's got to
be what it is because the whole thing was to
guide him back to him and have his son have achieved
some level of this Pinocchio personhood thing
that he designed. Come back to his actual father.
Right. Yeah. Geppetto. The other thing I think
is weird and interesting, the end scene where
he's sitting there with the older AI, the adult
AI alien. Um, and there's the, the moon behind
them and stuff. And he's just like, dude, like
I've, I've waited my whole life to meet you and
stuff. And like, it's just like, it really feels
like the finally meeting of the, the, you know,
absent father figure and ET and stuff. Um, it
really feels like an echo of that scene and stuff,
which, yeah, which like opened up a bunch of,
well, they're not, well, they're not clear about
it. Um, but those, those, those, those sent,
Those, um, those advanced AI alien things, like
they might not be aliens. They might just be
the, like the evolution of the AI that we created.
Right. Exactly. So like we are father, right?
Like we are their parents or whatever. There's
that parent complex of like, dad, I was looking
for, they're looking for their mothers. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, And he's just an expression of
that, but so too are they just an expression
of that. Yeah, because we created them, and what
else could we create other than an AI? Just looking
for love and acceptance and validation. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. No, totally, totally. And they do
just want to be nice to this kid AI. They don't
treat him like a machine. What they do, however,
is in the final scene, when you see his mother
come back, they recreate her, and we assume...
That she's recreated as an organ or whatever,
organ or whatever. She is a human being that
this AI is so good that the AI can recreate it.
And it's not so good that it can recreate it
forever for whatever reason. Or that's a choice
that they're not telling this kid because that's
what's going to make it happen. Because it has
something to do with the fabric of the universe
and the way it's structured or something. Right.
It doesn't make sense. It's a bullshit. But the
question is, is that something that Spielberg
made up? They understand the interdimensionality
and space -time in some complex way. But yeah,
I don't know. The question is, is that space
-time bullshit thing something that Spielberg
made up so that we could have a finality to this
final scene? Or is it something that the AI made
up, these AI aliens made up to give this to...
million year old robot some sort of closure because
that's the thing that he actually needs because
that's what gives him mortality and allows him
to die um and it's you know they actually like
it's almost like they're a program that understands
this program and how to just like oh it's programmed
like this you just click this and like it'll
solve the equation like you know Well, Professor
Hobby seems convinced that the experiment was
a success and that he reached a level of sentience
that they did not program into him, which was,
I guess, his myth -making. So Professor Hobby
is only using David to validate his ideology,
which is that the thing that's important about
being a human being is being able to tell stories
and myth -make. And whatever to create art, I
guess that David like is the personification
of humanity because he is that thing that just
continues to strive for understanding. You know?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but the thing is for me,
like, I don't know that professor hobbies whole
motivation for all of that. Like it's, it's like
a, it's, it's just a fancy fucking. showroom
demonstration of this new line of thing like
it's not about like him actually thinking he's
creating well he seems to believe in it yeah
he seems to believe in it in a pretty sincere
way not that he's trolling people but he knows
that he's being tricked I think he understands
that technology like if anybody understands that
technology well he did he did admit like my son
was one of a kind yeah You are the first of a
kind. Exactly. And it's like, and, and what I
made is something beautiful. And like, just me
looking at my work is just like getting me worked
up and it's making me think of my son and whatever,
but it's not that he created the next step of
humanity or something. It's not, he is, he created
a really good trick that will fucking work. And
I'm going to show it to the people in there.
And like, I know it's sad. Like, I can't, I'm
dealing with you as a human being because like,
that's the only way to interact with you. But
I know that you're not, and you're here to demonstrate
to the shareholders that the thing that I just
did worked, and now we can release the whole
line and stuff. Well, one thing that changes
about David, or at least I think it's the first
time you see him do stuff like this in the movie,
but once Monica comes back... he's actually like
taking care of her a little bit more. Yeah. You
know, he's actually like doing things for her
and he's not like dependent on her. Yeah. You
know, but also she's, she's like what, what I
was getting to that she's recreated as Oregon
or whatever, but she's like, totally confused
and she's just his play toy like in that scene
the roles have been completely reversed and like
yeah he's taking care of her and whatnot he's
the one who knows what's going on he's the only
one who knows what's going on and when they cut
to her reactions of all of his pictures or whatever
she just has the completely blankest like oh
wait maybe they didn't even recreate her dude
like maybe it had maybe this was just some bullshit
that this ai was given this other ai because
like she just looks so confused or like maybe
they did totally recreate her but the point is
like without the context of her whole life and
reality. And just in this space with this kid,
there is no thing other than just like the mother.
Well, she is a fantasy. There's no, she doesn't
prove that like, she's aware of what her life
should be or like, she doesn't even bring up
her kid or husband. I don't think. And like,
she doesn't know anything about like that person.
He doesn't care. He's just projecting all of
it. Yeah, exactly. And so that's why the ending
of it can only happen for one day doesn't really
make any sort of sense except for this MacGuffin
reason. Unless it's like, well, this AI is like,
no, no, no. You can only ask for one day. Because
just like the AI in Zardoz, it's like, no, what
we need to do is introduce mortality to this
situation. Otherwise, there is no life and there's
no point and whatever. And so we can at least
give this. ai the experience because he understood
real humans and maybe this is the only like i
don't know them contributing that to him is part
of the art form it's like bringing a human back
from the dead um as a robot that has their brain
and their sentience so to speak their consciousness
so to speak programmed into them it's like there
was like a really good episode in season two
of Westworld about that, you know, where they
just keep trying to bring like the, the founder
of the company, James Delos back from the dead.
And he wakes up in a tank over and over. And
he like, at first thinks he's James Delos and
like, he's a real human person. And like, there's
a whole like, it's like cover story for like
why he's supposed to be in there or whatever.
And then like the whole test is that at some
point you have to. Let him know that he's a robot.
And how is he going to deal with that? And every
time it makes him lose his mind and he breaks
and like, right. But like Haley, but like all
the robots in this world know they're robots.
That's one of the things they also accept the
fact that they're like not lovable by humans,
that they're like, they are artificial. Like
they never really advocate for the idea that
they are. Only David does that. He's the only
one that says like, I am a boy. I'm not a toy.
Yada, yada. But then that's early on. And because
he's like trying, because he's going on a quest
to make himself a real boy, he knows that he
is not one. Right. You know? Right. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And he knows that he's like not earning
his mother's love specifically because he's not
one. Right. Exactly. Which is true. If he was
a real boy, she would not, if that was her actual
second child, any of this stuff, you know, like
she would not treat him the same way. kids do
weird shit they will cut your hair off in the
middle of the night for some weird reason they
will like accidentally hurt themselves or someone
else or whatever like kids just do crazy shit
yeah you know it's scary it's like terrifying
but in in in a human being there's something
called love that allows you to overcome the things
that are illogical like you know what i mean
otherwise like child a baby a child like would
be so irritating that you would just kill it
like you know what i mean it's like this thing
that doesn't make any sense it's just like it's
being loud and so i'm gonna kill it or whatever
like and that would just logically like in an
emotional like reality it's like oh like In a
hunter -gatherer society, why wouldn't we do
that? It's like, oh, well, because we have a
connection to the thing, an emotional connection
that overcomes that. This baby's annoying. It's
putting us in danger. Right. It's putting us
and our other kids in danger or whatever and
blah, blah, blah. And yeah, people do do that,
I guess. Well, people just lose their shit, you
know? Like, I had an infant. My son's over one
now, but like... when he was an infant, especially
with all, he had a really tough start and whatever,
but like he would fucking scream so loud for
so long that like for the first time I like understood
the frustration of what it's like to like not
be able to make a little kid feel better, you
know, like comforting them and whatever. And
they're just wailing and they just keep going
and going. And you feel like it makes you feel
like the biggest failure. in your life and like
you just like you like melt down and whatever
because you're just like wouldn't it be nice
if you just had like a company that provided
you with a baby that when they did that you could
just put them in the closet and then like when
you took them out of the closet they'd just be
totally fine like you could just be the worst
possible parent ever and just like they're just
be totally fine Cause that's what they're doing
to this fucking movie is like in the beginning,
like her, her putting him in the closet for like
hours because he's creepy is like, that is child
abuse and whatever. And also like the, like the
way the other kids treat him and stuff, but like
the way that the way that she is so that their
relationship is so focused on like her, like,
I don't know. There's something, there's something
about the like way that she interacts with that
kid that is so selfishly like. almost pornographic
like you know what i mean and that's that's that's
the like talking about the kubrickian part of
the third part um but that's the really kubrickian
part of the first part i think is like the connection
the like making incredibly creepy just something
as like natural and sweet as like motherly love
like motherly love is in in this movie is made
like disgusting you know like in a way that's
like it's it's horrifying like the way that she
is just like having just like very basic physiological
needs met through interacting with this fucking
basic ass kid. That's just saying all the right
things. Like what the right things are all the
time is so creepy and weird. Like that. She loves
like the, like little coloring thing, the, the,
the letters he writes her about like, I am real
and I love you or whatever. And she's got emotional.
It's like, it's terrifying. It's like, it's almost
not convincing. Like you could say that it's
like a bug. But I think it's a feature. Right.
That's the only reason women don't kill their
children. It feels like a bug in the movie. She
actually falls for it. Oh, no, but I mean, I
mean, you could say it's a bug in humanity, right?
Like, it's like, why are people, why is it there's
this weird thing that like, but it's like, no,
that's not a bug. It's a feature. Otherwise,
you would kill your baby immediately. That's
the only reason is that there's these weird physiological
things that are totally like illogical. They're
like, oh, wait, when a baby like makes that noise,
I just love it. Like, you know, when there's
something that like looks this way with those
eyes, then I just like. Love it. I just have
to take care of it and I can't let it die. And
I have to eat it and change its diaper and yada,
yada, yada. Seeing it so like Kubrickly laid
bare in this like distanced and like clinical
way is like horrifying where it's like, Oh, when
there's no kid there watching that is so gross,
dude. Like, and I know in the movie you can,
you can, you can emotionally like be seduced
into thinking he's a kid and that these are sweet
bones, but I, for the whole beginning i don't
and i just see well the beginning is particularly
pushed in a terrifying beginning he's particularly
robotic and no the very beginning but i just
mean the whole first like until she abandons
him like i it is it is like watching you know
um um century of the self where it's just kind
of like oh well edward bernie like um just freudian
psychology and bernays and shit have figured
out that there are these really basic buttons
in people to push and that like corporations
once they figure out those buttons can just like
push them and you can be like emotionally involved
in this product and like whether that product
is like you know cigarettes or a you know a band
or a robot kid it's just kind of like watching
a corporation know how easily to push those buttons
and like watching those buttons be pushed and
then also having those buttons be pushed in you
as a viewer watching it and then like it's so
well i also think this movie is just like zardoz
prescient like i think it actually does portray
our relationship to ai oh dude like now like
everything that we're going through now and our
discussion is surrounding it Him talking to Dr.
No is like, oh, how did you know that talking
to AI would be like that in 2001? I know. It's
like you have to ask in one way and then you
ask it another way. You just keep asking the
same question through different filters until
it gives you a different type of answer. And
you have to pay for it. It's just like a minority
report. It says information costs money. That's
the most valuable thing in this world is information
or whatever. Yeah, like, a lot of that stuff
was already encroaching in the culture, but,
like, it came really to a head in the social
media age. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's because
of AI, like, shit. Like, the collecting on your
data is, like, where there's the most money.
And, like, this is a pre -Facebook movie. They
found out about him because he used an AI model
and started asking those questions, and something
figured out that, like, that was him. That's
how, like, the company, like, traced him again
and whatever, you know? It's like... that that
shit there actually is a network in the movie
that's not acknowledged and everything is like
kind of well i mean what about what about like
how are they watching what's happening in that
house for the for the beta test you know what
i mean the family like hanging out with this
kid like what there's no feed back to the fucking
like billion dollar corporation that's making
fucking robots you don't think this robots video
feed is tappable like i like i don't buy any
of the stuff in that like yeah and i i know that
he says like i only you know intervened at this
point but it's like we lost you for a bit and
whatever lost you for a bit i could see like
that maybe there was some disruption in the signal
and we lost you for a bit but like yeah but like
i i don't believe that this was all like uh they
just gave this robot away and then they you know
in six months we're going to check in and see
how it went it's like no no they're seeing how
the mom reacts when she puts the fingers how
did like every single moment is being data tested
like beta tested and contributed to it you know
the analysis of this product that is going out
um yeah i just a lot of it i think is watching
this movie this time is just like seeing the
of corporate America and through psychology into
the American household and stuff. I think you're
right about that. Using that to fix problems
that it itself, like the convenience of modernization.
We already have relationships to computers, you
know? Yeah. Even before they were AI models,
AI is just kind of a rebranding of a more advanced
version of whatever we're. Whatever we've been
dealing with. Totally. For most consumers, using
ChatGPT mostly amounts to just using a better
Google search engine. Right. It's not actually
something that's so much more advanced than what
we were using. In many ways, I guess it is, but
it's also the same thing. It's not actually like
a new thing. It's just gotten better at doing
it or whatever. It's gotten faster at doing it
or whatever. Just how quickly it can give you
answers. It's also like it gives you 10, like,
I don't know. Like the first time I talked to
ChatGPT was when I was trying to type into Google.
Like I was searching 2001 A Space Odyssey on
Google or something. And I typed it in and it
was like I was actually typing it into the ChatGPT
thing in some like Google app or something. And
it just said, here's 10 facts about 2001 A Space
Odyssey. And one of them was like that Kubrick
came up with HAL 9000 or like saw the monolith
in a dream. Yeah. And it was because of that
dream. Like it was based on this dream that Kubrick
had or whatever. And I was like, here, chat GBT.
Like, where did you find this information? And
they like sent me to some like website or whatever.
And it was like nothing on that site about that
at all, except for like a. recording of some
other conversation with another ai that somebody
else had that then referenced the other thing
like there was some back and forth references
between other ai created ideas of 2001 a space
odyssey but like there was no base source yeah
there was no source for this thing it just like
it came up from the ether and now is like well
it's referencing this other thing that references
this other thing that's referencing this other
thing and all of them are ai programs that all
are saying this false fact it came from nowhere
it's deciding on a consensus based on what it
can find right right but the consensus is like
several ai programs consensus on like something
that like never existed actually yeah like it's
a completely made up fact it's not like a fact
that like is misunderstood from like an interview
or a thing or whatever like it's like it's a
completely made up fact that's like i don't know
how that comes up but like nowhere did kubrick
say he thought of it in a dream never or whatever
never and nowhere in any writing did anybody
say that like ever except an ai program said
that once like it's so and you did i remember
you like showing me this you did actually like
call it out and it like and eventually it was
like yeah i apologize yeah it was like sometimes
i right i got it wrong i was like well i guess
it just confidently said it though it takes a
big person to admit to their mistakes I'm sorry
I can't do that but yeah of course AI gets shit
wrong and like you have to take it with a grain
of salt and that's what's kind of dangerous about
it I think that's part of what's interesting
watching him talking to Dr. No is like watching
him like get a totally AI answer about nothing
and then get another totally AI answer about
nothing and like get another and it's like okay
well if I combine this these ways and like really
all he's asking for is like to have his thing
validated or whatever like he is not but in the
end he just comes across like a hidden program
that's made to you know control his mind it's
been pro it's not the ai that's coming up with
it it's just the dr uh hobby who's put that in
there exactly yeah dr no actually like doesn't
contribute anything that's actually an interesting
um That's actually an interesting homonym, you
know, because like it's no as in knowledge, but
also like the word no. Right. Like as in you
cannot do that. I'm sorry. I cannot do that,
Dave. You know? Yep. Yep. There's like a lot
of like, there's a lot of references to 2001
in this movie. Oh, totally. Like when David,
I mean, his name is David. Right. And like when
he's eating the spinach or whatever, they're
like, they're like, no, Dave, stop. Dave, stop.
And that's like, what? That's like how pleading
with Dave in 2001 or whatever, except it's the
opposite. He's like killing himself instead of
someone killing him. And the AI is like not looking
out for its own survival, which is another weird
thing that like, I feel it's more human or whatever.
Just like having the ability to like override
the function of you that wants to survive, you
know? I don't really want to make the argument
that David's human either because he's not, but
just like the, the ability to approximate things
that are uniquely human, he can seem to do. I
think, I think part of that is introducing this
insanity that is love into this equation, you
know? Yeah. Like, and trauma and like everything,
because every, the whole, because I definitely
think. the most human he is in the movies is
in the end. Yeah. The most, like, agency he has,
the most, like, self -realized and whatever.
Like, in the beginning, he's the creepiest. And
there's, like, props to Haley Joel Osment. Like,
honestly, this performance is pretty incredible.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, he should be really
proud of it and shit like that. Yeah, it's incredible.
He seamlessly, before your eyes, kind of, like,
nails that. Yeah. And, like, continues. To learn
from his experiences and his environment and
his hopes and his dreams and all this kind of
stuff and mentors and what have you to become
a fully realized idea with a fully realized goal
that wasn't totally programmed into him. As long
as you believe that's the case. Right. That it's
not all actually programmed. Right, right. Well,
at least it's a demonstration of a base program
coming to some sort of thing. Having some kind
of algorithmic processing that allows it to gather
information and replicate things, and that doesn't
necessarily make it human. Because that's what
our AI is doing. It's training itself on all
of our information, all of our data. But all
it can do is train itself on our data, our written
records, essentially, not anything that's actually
real about us or the things that we can't even
explain about ourselves. The things that are
illogical. Right. Things that don't apply to,
like, binary coding and things that can't be
written, yeah. The question is, like, is there
anything that can't be written in David, you
know? I really don't know. I... Yeah, like, you
can approximate basically any emotion and pass
the Turing test and whatever it is. But, like...
What does that really mean? I mean, to me, I
think of David as kind of... Have you seen that,
um... There's some art installation of like some,
you know, thing that's leaking oil all the time.
And it's only like it's some robot and it's like
constantly leaking oil. And but it's programmed
to constantly be shoveling the oil back into
itself. And it's just like over the course of
like however long it's been doing this, like
10 years, it's like. gotten so much more old
and creaky and it's still like slowly trying
to get this oil back with this like squeegee
and all it is is arm with a squeegee trying to
get this oil back but like that struggle to stay
alive and whatever that thing is like i don't
it's not that i think that that thing is sentient
like you know what i mean but it is that like
i think that that is kind of a beautiful like
artistic like you know thing to see. Now, I don't
think it's that. It's not the most beautiful.
I don't think it's so profound that it's a...
But I do think that David is. I think that David
is like that thing where it's like, I don't need
David to be a sentient thing in the end or whatever.
It's like his mimicry of the sentient. It's the
struggle for sentience. It's the struggle. It's
the tragedy. It's the sadness. It's the something
missing that he's reaching for that's no longer
there. All of those things that are like... It's
not that he's experiencing them, but it's that
he's mimicking the right things. Like, you know
what I mean? It's that those things are what
his job is. Just like the thing, the only thing
that that machine is doing is wiping the oil
back into itself. Like the only thing David is
doing is like hoping to be real. And it's like
something that doesn't make any sense for all
these resources we put into or whatever. But
it is so like. sad and human to create that not
to be that but to create that is like so yeah
because like you're saying earlier like i think
the idea that david has a work of art like makes
a lot of sense yeah as like a final expression
of humanity right he's like the hubble right
right or whatever yeah you know he's like this
thing that we put out there just To say we are
great and we control our reality and whatever
it is, just like that. Right, right. He's like
a monolith of sorts. Yeah, he's a monolith of
sorts. The idea of transhumanism, really. I mean,
Professor Javi is just like a degenerate transhumanist
technophile. I'm sorry, he's like the Voyager.
He's like the Voyager. Yeah, he's a disgusting
transhumanist technophile. And he's got... I
love that this movie starts with an opening scene
about sex robots. And it's about sex robots,
and then it says, what is love? And it's love
is quickening my breath and raising the temperature
and looking in the eyes. Just like Ready Player
One, the sexual undertones in this movie are
really there, but it's a very appropriate...
My kid could watch this movie. Yeah. I watched
this movie when I was a kid. Yeah. But it is
extremely like, you know, discussion, like the
sexual discussions are intense. Um, and I think
that the sexuality is then emphasized in things
that you wouldn't think like of sexually in general
or whatever. Like the, the, the mother's love
situation is something that like is very specifically
mirrored. Um, when we finally meet, uh, uh, uh,
to go to jail. Um, where when he's seducing the
woman, he like puts his fingers on the back of
her neck in the exact same way that the mom puts
the fingers on the back of his neck and stuff.
And he like, she's afraid of what's under there
and whatever, just like the mom was afraid of
taking his clothes off and whatever, because
there's something sexual there that this movie
is emphasizing and acknowledging. And this is
like a very Kubrickian because she can like objectify
him or whatever. Like, Right. Well, he is an
object. He's essentially a pornographic sexual
object for her. He's a sex bot. That is what
they're designing. That's what this company makes.
They're sex bots. But it's a different... It's
not a clitoral orgasm sex bot, but it's mimicking
the... It's triggering the endorphins that come
from the... birthing and raising of a child which
is you know a sexual process through like you
know pheromones yeah it's mimicking the procreative
validation and i don't know in a way that by
emphasizing the sex bot thing and then and then
mirroring it with gigolo joe like totally underlines
the like creepy sexuality of mother love like
you know what i mean it makes all of that stuff
that one would think of as innocent incredibly
not innocent you know it really feels like a
pretty perverse movie it's so perverse and it
really i mean since i've watched lolita somewhat
recently it really reminds me of lolita in a
lot of ways um of it not saying things but saying
them the like i don't know just the idea of having
a robot child who like is fully like it's is
incredibly disgusting and perverse like yeah
it's and it's and the thing is i don't know if
they i've heard some news article about this
i don't know if they started making these in
japan or stopped making these in japan but i'm
sure there were there was some article about
baby sex robots in japan or whatever or baby
sex dolls or something like you know or under
like that sort of thing i don't know if they're
no longer allowed to do that or if they're totally
allowed i don't know the deal but that is creepy,
weird fucked upness. Right. But like mother,
like mother's maternal love being like perverted
and exploited in that way is like almost more
perverse. Like, you know what I mean? It's not
just perverting sexuality, it's perverting love.
Like, and that's so weird. Like there's something
so disturbing about equating those things in
that way. Yeah, for sure. And not just in the
way that it is in, you know, Luna or something.
You know what I mean? Where it's a sexual thing
or whatever. I'm talking about like the non -sexuality
of it is worse. Because it is just like revealing
the triggers that are like, you know, I don't
know. Yeah, it's psychologically manipulating.
Yeah. And also like using a mother's pain against
her or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the lack
of that. And it's filling with commerce. I do
think it is specifically women in this movie
that are being preyed on by this. I think you
could argue there's a bit of a gender divide
in this movie. The only man who's seduced by
him is the guy whose little girl brings... I
wouldn't say he's seduced by him, though. I think
he only sees an opportunity there. I think you're
right. He's amazed at the craftsmanship. And
he's polite to him or whatever. He's not buying
it or whatever. You're right. He's not buying
it. None of the men in this movie are ever buying
it. Yeah, yeah. And even in the end, when he
gets his... In the end, when David gets to have
this one day with his mom, the narration says
what her life would be like free of Henry and
Martin, without this male presence in her life.
Right, where she'd be free to just fully immerse
into the fantasy. Because Henry and Martin are
a big reason why everything kind of comes to
a head. martin's constantly antagonizing him
and like henry just like doesn't support the
idea of having him like the longer time goes
on right he's having buyer's remorse for sure
and after you know martin newly drowns or whatever
they're just like that's it you know that henry
was just like no there's it's over you know we're
getting rid of him yeah and like logically you
understand why and she's like yes logically you
know it's like i'm sure there's a whole but like
that we don't have to see because It's just obvious.
We all know. I don't know that the audience always
knows. I feel like the audience watching the
movie at that scene is like she's being a horrible
mother, but it's just like that's the... trick
like is that's what's so horrible about the imprinting
is that like then she has to go through the emotion
of being a horrible mother eventually because
like otherwise this kid's what just never gonna
grow up or like there's like the thing that continually
like happens to her is like she keeps being taken
out of the reality and whenever she's taken out
of the reality she completely cannot handle it
like it's like when When he starts doing the
telephone thing where he's like talking through
the phone and then he's talking in her husband's
voice to her through the phone. It's terrifying.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But there's a bunch of those.
And whenever like the fantasy thing is like,
oh, wait, he's not a kid. Oh, this isn't real.
Like, fuck, fuck, fuck. I like it. And then she's
like, no, it's OK. It's OK. It's OK. It's real.
It's fine. It's fine. And then as soon as like
there's another weird twitch, it's like, oh,
my God. And like when she's standing next to
him with his stomach open, he's like, it doesn't
hurt at all. She's just like. Oh, I'm going to
drop his hand and walk away. I don't care about
this thing. This is disgusting. This is horrifying.
I've been seduced by a weird machine. She really
wants to believe the fantasy. And every time
he makes it difficult for her to do that, it's
really rough. But it also reveals that it's only
the seduction. It's only the triggers and the
things that are being triggered that allow this
to continue. Whenever those things happen, the
logic totally surfaces, which is like, oh, yeah,
fuck. I'm back in reality right now. No, I want
to go back. I want to go back. Let me just forget
that his stomach was open and that there's like,
let me just forget that, you know, he can't eat
this broccoli or this spinach. I don't know.
That's deeply disturbing. Yeah. Because I feel
like, you know, AI child or no AI child, like
a lot of people are just going through life like
that. You know, he distracted by fantasies and
dreams that kind of, and narratives that kind
of hide the very, very disturbing truths from
them. So they don't have to think about that
all the time. Exactly. Exactly. And then every
once in a while, these things happen where they
get snapped out of it for a second, whatever.
Like someone, like someone dies. Yeah. And like
when someone dies in your life, it's like you
have like a dissociative episode. If they were,
like, someone really important to you. Yeah.
You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like,
is reality even real? Like, what timeline is
this? You just, like, have all these, like...
Well, mortality really connects you to the human
experience. Like, you know? And it kind of makes
all these other narratives seem a lot less real.
You know? Mm -hmm. Well, it's important. It's
important in Zardoz. It's important in AI. It's
important in the real world. That's true. I don't
know. Do you have more on this? Should we keep
going? I mean, the one thing, I don't know. You
were saying you were reading the, like, trivia
on this movie. And one of the things you were
saying that it was based on The Stolen Child
by Yeats. Bia, do you have any thoughts on this
poem? Have you read this poem at all? I haven't.
I don't know. You know, I was reading it. It
basically seems like a poem about, you know,
a kid being, like, abducted by fairies, essentially.
And the fairies are saying that the world is,
you know, a terrible place or whatever and kind
of come with us and escape sort of thing. But
it's interpreted as a loss of innocence thing
or something. But, like, what's interesting about
it is it, like, it's saying come away, child,
or whatever the whole time. Um, and then in the
end it's like, you know, he came, he came with
us. Like, you know what I mean? So it's like,
it's trying to get the kid to come with us the
whole time. And in the end it's like, well now
he's with us. The whole thing is a seduction.
Um, yeah. And the whole thing is kind of a seduction
of this kid into this sort of world of the fairies.
Um, yeah. More, more than it is like, uh, you
know, abduction or whatever. Um, I don't know.
I was just, I feel like there's something a little
gay about a poem. That's about like, you know,
like child, like come to the world of the fairies
where, you know, we like, they don't have, like,
I don't know. There's some, something about fairies.
And then I was thinking a little bit. The blue
fairy. The what? The blue fairy. The blue fairy.
Yeah. I was thinking a little bit about the blue
fairy and come like, you know, the stolen child
apparently was obviously overtly referenced in
the movie. That's what the, um, Dr. No, you know,
tells him when he. That's the text. That's the
text that comes up. But I don't know, I like
I just like thinking about this, like maybe think
about just like, yeah, like there is a weird
sort of queer narrative to this movie as well,
I think. Like, I think that you could see this
like overattachment to the mother situation that
that David goes through and sort of his shunning
and having to live on the margins thing and the
sex work and things like there's there's something
there is like a sort of queer narrative to this
movie, I think. on a certain level. And I think
it's, it's like interesting that it also like
comes to this same, like ending as ET with this,
like, you know, adult version of this younger
guy talking like, um, I don't know. Just as adult
talking to this kid about like, yeah, well there's
a whole world out here. Like, I don't know. There's
no similarities there. I don't, I don't really
know. I don't really know, but there's something
about the flesh fair and the thing, like all
of there's, there's something about being othered.
and being different and whatever, and this weird
sexuality and mother attachment stuff. Yeah.
I mean, Drew Law seems to be a very androgynous
kind of character in a lot of ways. Like, you
know, I mean, he's servicing women throughout
this movie. That's true. But in the real world,
male prostitutes don't service women. I'm sure
there are some, but I don't think there are many.
I feel like if we were going to take this movie's
reality seriously, Jude Law is probably getting
down wherever he can. I don't know. He's not
portrayed as gay, really. He's very interested
in women. Also, at the same time, he's always
wearing makeup and stuff and changing his...
He's flamboyant. Yeah, there's a certain femininity
to the prostitute character. I also wonder if
he actually is doing the singing in the rain
dance. It might be the same dance, yeah. Could
be, but I'd have to look it up. Just the hopping
up and down the sidewalk and when he actually
starts to go through that puddle. Well, there's
also the stepping in. to the house and then stepping
back that David does in the very beginning. There's
a lot of these weird repetitive motions in this
movie. I didn't pick up on as many this time
as I feel like I remember there being in the
past, but there's definitely the hand on the
back of the neck thing that repeats when she's
on the phone with her husband after David is
talking to her through the phone. When she finds
out that her son, what's his name? Martin. Martin.
um is alive again or has woken up or whatever
like she is holding out of the wall with her
hand and her hand makes the same sort of straight
fingers like curled motion that it made on the
back of the neck so there's there's all this
like this hand motion being representative of
love and connection thing i don't know um this
grasp yeah that's empty grasp or this kind of
like this beckoning or something And yeah, there's
something there's something about that dance,
too. And there's something about David stepping
in the house and then stepping back and then
stepping back in the house that like kind of
mimics that dance, too. And I feel like there
are other weird motions. The other thing I was
thinking of that is super weird is how they turn
on Teddy is just through his anus and stuff,
which is just like it's it's a what's it called?
It's in that anime that pervy ass. uh robot and
chill bits that's like in chill bits that's how
you turn on the the robot girl sex doll girls
is you have to turn them on by sticking your
finger in their vagina how that's where the switch
is it's like teddy's switch is in his asshole
like are you serious where's fucking david's
switch guys this is all fucked up back of his
neck let's see what you don't pee out of or pee
with like Creepy fucking movie, dude. You were
saying while we were watching it, that woman's
face that's just the front of her face, that
one robot who just doesn't have a head, but her
face is there. So disturbing. There's so many
things that are right on the... Yeah, there's
so many disturbing images in this movie. It really
does cut to the horror of Simulacra. imitations
the uncanny valley exactly whatever yeah yeah
yeah the uncanny the like right like i think
specifically like it happens in the first scene
when her face opens up the the demonstration
uh robot in the first scene that looks like anna
kendrick as soon as her face opens up you see
someone that is totally human become an object
in an instant and that is exactly what freud
describes as the unhomely like the thing that
is exactly like familiar and yet unfamiliar and
like the ai is the same like the whole concept
of ai that's what's disturbing about it is yeah
it's like unhomeliness the the just slightly
uncanny that makes you disgusted and repulsed
and because it is evil like it actually is evil
that's why you're it's your body is saying To
kill it. Or at least the men in this movie are.
Well, yeah. Like, the men in Zardoz are all these
brutal murderers and stuff. I guess not the ones
in the society, but, like, you know, if you say
the outside world... In the society, we're all
wearing blouses, though. Yeah, the one that...
We were saying that the society is feminine and
that the outside world is masculine. And, like,
the feminine world is the one that's, like...
like controlled by ai and just like completely
arms wide open with the whole system and consensus
and all this stuff and just a stagnancy and safety
and security and yeah we didn't dig into like
all their parallels but like they're there and
there's like a still like a thing like the thing
about class is kind of still there and Totally.
Like they're both just very surreal, psychedelic
movies as well. I think like I was saying to
you, it's like really interesting the type of
imagery AI gets away with. Oh yeah. Like justifying
or whatever by its narrative, you know, like
it shows you some really interesting images that
are very disturbing. And I'm really honestly
like not surprised that this movie didn't go
over very well for a lot of people. It's just
sickeningly disturbing. It's sickeningly disturbing,
and I feel like maybe that's just not what you
wanted from a Spielberg at that time. You were
trying to have fun, like Jurassic Park or something.
This was part of his darkest of trilogies. Yeah,
it's so dark. The trilogy of science fiction
movies, the War of the Worlds, AI, Minority Report
trilogy. What order is that in? It's AI first,
then Minority Report, then War of the Worlds,
right? Maybe we should do this. I think that's
correct, yeah. Want to just keep going, do another
one, and then do another one? I don't think I
can do that, brother. I'm so sorry. I've got
to get on a plane tomorrow. They're the best.
They're the darkest Spielberg ever gets. And
I don't know if he gets any darker than this.
I remember Minority Report as being maybe the
darkest of his whole career. I'm not saying Schindler's
List is light. AI might be the darkest. AI might
be even darker than Minority Report. Schindler's
List is very dark. Schindler's List is different.
It's a little different, yeah. I don't know,
man. Would you say that's that, Matchesman? I'd
say that's that. Thank you.