WEBVTT

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See, I believe that all the mysteries of the

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universe, all the answers to life’s questions

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can be found in a Spielberg film. I've been

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afraid for all of my life. Why doesn’t somebody

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just shoot me in the head? Right up until the

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day I knew my life was ending. You look bad.

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No, man. You smell bad. I'm pretty fucking far from Ok.

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Really, I feel like I'm sharing a very precious- Look at my shit. I had an affair.- 

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moment with you. There are no nations. There are

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no peoples. Are you threatening me, dick? You

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don't approve. Fake. Well, too bad. Totally fake.

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Did, it seem fake? You look like a damn crackhead.

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When my best friend was bitten in half in front of me? I found

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this cover story personally embarrassing myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis.

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Everything but the little fishies. Alright, alright.

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Welcome to Everything But The Little Fishies.

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I'm Evan. I'm Mike. And today we're talking about

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2001, A Space Odyssey from 1968 and The Right

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Stuff from 1983. This has been a long time coming.

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The idea of doing a 2001 episode, I guess it's

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kind of hard to know what to say about 2001 that

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hasn't already been said. It's probably one of

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the most overanalyzed movies in existence, like

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many Kubricks, obviously. 2001, The Shining,

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Eyes Wide Shut, these are movies that you can

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find endless YouTube videos coming up with all

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these conspiracy theories about what they mean

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and all this kind of stuff. It kind of feels

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like there is one aspect to 2001, and there might

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be many more aspects, but at least one aspect

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that you, Mike, were able to hone in on and introduce

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to me. And it's an angle that you kind of realized,

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maybe independently of, but also through the

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film The Right Stuff and what that had to say.

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Yeah, I think The Right Stuff sort of reveals

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a lot. about what 2001 A Space Odyssey is really

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saying. Sure, sure. Or at least one of the things

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it's saying. Kubrick movies, you know, contain

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multitudes. But I really like this angle, so

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we're going to do something a little bit different

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this time. We usually go chronological when we

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talk about the movies, but this time I think

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we're going to talk about the right stuff first

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so that we can kind of create a context for the

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conversation about 2001. Does that sound good?

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sounds good. Sounds good. I'll

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start with the right stuff then. Yeah, so the

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right stuff. I think one of the things that's

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very interesting about the right stuff, the movie

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and the book. The book was written by Tom Wolfe

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in 1979. Right. Who also wrote The Electric Kool

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-Aid Acid Test, which is like one of my favorites.

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Yeah, yeah. Tom Wolfe is one of the great...

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New journalists? I guess you wouldn't call him

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a beatnik writer. Yeah, like one of the great

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new journalists. He's kind of part of the Gonzo

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movement, although I don't think most of his

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stuff doesn't really have him as a character,

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except, like, I think in Electric Kool -Aid,

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he's sort of there. Yeah, at least in the bookends

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and whatever. But The Right Stuff is a book about

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the first astronauts in the late 50s, early 60s,

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and it's... I want to say, like, the book is

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almost a kind of satirical work. Tom Wolfe's

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writing style is very fun and funny, and he likes

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to poke at things, and he's very humorous. And

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it's very clear when you're reading the book

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The Right Stuff that Tom Wolfe doesn't exactly...

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He's trying to demystify and disillusion the

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idea of astronauts. and the space race as this

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kind of heroic, righteous kind of endeavor. Right.

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And I think that's very clear in the book and

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not quite as clear in the movie, but the movie

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also does a pretty good job at creating an irony

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around this subject. Totally. I mean, I think

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it's still very clear in the movie, personally.

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I think, you know, Philip Kaufman does a really

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good job of... bringing that irony into the movie

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without kind of making it so on the nose that

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it's annoying. But I feel like a lot of the time

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when the movie puts, you know, these people on

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the pedestal, it's, you know, ironically. Sure,

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sure. I wouldn't say the book is annoying about

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it, but the book is very, very, the book is not

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subtle about how it's trying to portray this

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whole scenario. I mean, there's even a section

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of the book called The Lab Rat. And that's the

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whole sequence where the astronauts are being

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subjected to those tests. Right, right. And so

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the book is like Tom Wolfe is very clear in his

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prose about all these ideas that the space program

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was kind of just a testing grounds for a bunch

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of scientists to do their thing as opposed to

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a bunch of pilots being able to do their thing.

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Because, you know, when the book and the movie

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open, we're introduced to pilots like Chuck Yeager,

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test pilots who are flying these high -precision

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vehicles, and it's like this incredibly dangerous

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thing to do. I mean, when the book opens, the

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book and movie both open with kind of like a

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funeral sequence, you know, to sort of convey

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the idea that, like, pilots die, and they don't

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necessarily die in combat. They die. doing test

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flights for new types of planes and engines.

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And, um, the book is even more explicit about

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how often this happens. Like the ratio is insane.

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I mean, in the movie they say one in four chance

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of dying. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's probably,

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I think that's what it says in the book too.

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I can't remember exactly, but the book opens

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with this character, Pete Conrad. And like the

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whole first chapter is about the wives and how

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Pete Conrad's wife, Jane, is not really certain

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whether her husband's going to come home alive

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or not. There's a rumor that an accident's happened.

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And talking to the wives over the telephone,

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she's not really sure whether or not Pete is

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the one who's died. And it kind of gets whittled

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down to either being him or one other guy. And

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it turns out not to be Pete. But the whole beginning

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is kind of just to convey this sort of... neuroses

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that the wives have to go through because like

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at any given moment that happens at the beginning

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of the movie as well where yeah yeah it happens

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without looks out and then turns out it's not

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her husband and then he ends up being one of

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the first nominees to become an astronaut and

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then pete doesn't make the cut right and it happens

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right in the first chapter well it's the first

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couple chapters there's the first chapters about

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pete and the wives and then it moves on to jaeger

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and jaeger is a big part of the movie Because

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Jaeger is the guy who broke the sound barrier.

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He was considered the greatest pilot of the time

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and whatever. And Edwards Base was the place

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that every hot pilot wanted to be doing. And

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that's where you had to be to climb the ziggurat,

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so to speak. They call it the pyramid in the

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movie, but in the book he always refers to it

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as the great ziggurat. It's the thing that every

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pilot wants to climb to be at the top. And to

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be at the top, you need to have the right stuff.

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And the right stuff isn't something any pilot

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talks about. But it's all understood. And it's

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this thing about bravery and whatever. But it's

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more than that. It's just the ability to hook

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yourself to a hunk of metal and hurtle through

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the sky. And then as things go wrong at the last

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moment, pushing outside of the envelope and being

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able to pull yourself back without dying. That's

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what the red stuff is. It's suicidal abandon.

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Yeah, suicidal abandon. But also, there's lots

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of skill involved in being a pilot. The thing

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I think that's amazing about this early part

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of the movie is these are fucking men. They ride

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horses, they fuck their wives. You know what

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I mean? They get drunk all the time, they fly

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planes with broken arms, and they're fucking

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men. They're cowboys. They're the most alpha

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of alphas. For sure. That I think is like one

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of the things that this part of the movie, like

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the beginning part of the movie with all the

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test pilots and stuff. I don't know. That to

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me, I think is like the thing that's super interesting

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about it. No, yeah, for sure. And yeah, I guess

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a lot of what the book and movie about is this

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transition from this very manly kind of enterprise

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where you're pushing the envelope and going to

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the edge and the suicidal abandon. you know,

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like what that puts on your family and just like

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all the loyalty and dedication involved in all

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of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To an enterprise where

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you basically just become a lab rat. You're like

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a specimen that gets experimented on and you

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get put in a tin can. Well, it's a different

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type of suicidal abandon now, right? Yeah, yeah,

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yeah. But it's one where you give up all of your

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control. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's all

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like... Gordon Cooper sitting sitting in the

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isolation tank with like all of that, like all

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the alarms going off and like, you know, the

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guys in there with him. I forget which other

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restaurant it is in there with him, like going

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insane. He's like, open up, open up. Like Gordon

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has the right stuff because he could just like

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sleep through that shit just because he's like

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basically like, yeah, not even there. You know

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what I mean? That's something that's very different

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than what Chuck Yeager, you know, has. It's like

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a very different value system. you know? Yeah,

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exactly. And then that's, that's what, that's

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the crazy part too, is like what it means to

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have the right stuff in the space age is very

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different from what it meant to have the right

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stuff in the high precision piloting age. And

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that's, I think, you know, Chuck Yeager, as soon

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as he's offered the job to be this astronaut,

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he's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

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Right? No, you guys are idiots. That's not, that's,

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you know, it's a retarded job. Chuck Yeager understands

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that it's not a. it's not a piloting like you're

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not going to pilot the thing right right and

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of course you know the book is more explicit

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about basically everything and more detailed

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about everything but in the movie this is all

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sort of presented as a heightened fantasy sequence

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where we go into the white house and jeff goldblum

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is like running into the room and saying like

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the russians just sent a man into space or whatever

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you know right right they're like we know sit

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down And they have this conversation about like

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who the test pilots for the Mercury Project is

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going to be. And the Mercury Project is the project

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for sending a man into orbit or whatever. Right.

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And in the book, they're really explicit about

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the idea that literally anybody could do this.

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You know, like it doesn't need to be an experienced

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test pilot. The whole point is that it's supposed

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to be apes. But instead, they're putting somebody

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in there as a figurehead. But the scientists

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are like, dude, an ape should be in there. That's

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what we're doing. It's like, no, no, no, we're

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not putting an ape into space. Well, they do

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put an ape into space. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Not sure. Right. That's the point. They put an

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ape into orbit first, and the ape accomplishes

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everything that the humans do afterwards. Right,

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right. The ape is the test subject, but the humans

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are also the test subject. But now there's a

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face to it. There's a publicity thing that can

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be gained from it. Right. But, yeah, like basically

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anybody could do this is like what they're trying

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to say. But Eisenhower steps in and says, no,

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this is like every fucking Tom, Dick, and Harry

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in the country is going to be applying to this

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if we do that. So I want test pilots. Right.

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You know? Let's whittle this down. And not only

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do they want test pilots, but they have to be

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test pilots that graduated college with a bachelor's

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degree. They need to be the all -American. What's

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his, like, Dudley Do -Right or Dickie Do? He's

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got, like, four of these Dudley Do -Right lines.

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But that's what they're looking for, John Glenn,

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like a Dudley Do -Right, somebody that everybody's

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going to like. There's a little bit of a difference

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in the movie and the book. In the movie, they

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kind of try to present that idea a little bit

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more straightforward, that, like, they're looking.

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for the right faces and the right image up front

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whereas in the book I think it's more like we're

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just trying to find we're trying to whittle down

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this list so much so that it's just a little

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bit easier to deal with and we do that by saying

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only test pilots you have to be a certain age

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you have to have like very specific physical

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characteristics and that's not necessarily like

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there's no consideration of whether or not they're

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Christians or whatever If there were, that's

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not written in the book. It's not until the press

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conference when John Glenn speaks about, I don't

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know if any of us could do this if we didn't

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have the support of our wives and children at

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home or whatever. In the movie, that's not really,

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that comes off as being sort of part of the plan

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or something. But in the book, you're in the

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heads of the other characters. And in that moment,

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they're like, dude, what the fuck? They're looking

00:12:38.129 --> 00:12:39.889
at John Glenn and being like, yo, John Glenn

00:12:39.889 --> 00:12:43.370
is basically just taking the stage here. No one

00:12:43.370 --> 00:12:46.110
asked him to do this. None of us asked to be

00:12:46.110 --> 00:12:48.500
like... portrayed this way but john glenn is

00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:50.659
setting the tone right and then and i mean this

00:12:50.659 --> 00:12:52.779
happens in the movie too and then and then gordon

00:12:52.779 --> 00:12:54.740
cooper tries to stand up and say something he's

00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:56.279
like oh look at john glenn taking the stage all

00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.259
right well fuck you i'm gonna say something and

00:12:58.259 --> 00:13:01.899
then he says an even more banal version of like

00:13:01.899 --> 00:13:04.419
the same speech of exactly well we do the things

00:13:04.419 --> 00:13:06.779
that have to be done because those are the things

00:13:06.779 --> 00:13:10.799
that are good to do and i it's like I think that

00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:13.700
we should stand. And I love America. It's just

00:13:13.700 --> 00:13:17.740
the dumbest shit. He's so much worse at doing

00:13:17.740 --> 00:13:20.039
it than John Glenn is. But it's clear that John

00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:21.879
Glenn is like doing this thing. And they're like,

00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:23.440
dude, look at how dumb it is what you're doing.

00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:24.899
All right, well, I guess this is what we're doing.

00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:26.879
I got to do it too. Oh, fuck. I mean, I'm not

00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.120
even as good as he is at doing this stupid thing.

00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:31.220
Like, you know, that's part of the competition

00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:34.169
as well. Yeah, and then Al Shepard is one of

00:13:34.169 --> 00:13:36.929
the least pious of them. He's a way more secular

00:13:36.929 --> 00:13:39.110
dude, but he has to kind of just pretend he's

00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:40.950
also a guy who goes to church or whatever. They

00:13:40.950 --> 00:13:43.070
all have to be good. As for church, I attend

00:13:43.070 --> 00:13:45.840
regularly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's for church.

00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:48.299
I attend regular. That's kind of like a fib.

00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:49.940
He's like sort of, you know, I guess I should

00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:52.000
say that's also more clear in the book. But you

00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:53.620
can kind of hear that in his voice. The subtext

00:13:53.620 --> 00:13:55.879
is there. But I think I think that's like there's

00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:58.080
a locus of identity thing happening there where

00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.000
like once these guys are in this position, how

00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.200
they have to answer these questions is no longer

00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.379
about who they are as individuals, but who they

00:14:05.379 --> 00:14:08.539
are supposed to be becoming for America and whatnot.

00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:10.700
And like these people are people who are like

00:14:10.700 --> 00:14:14.059
the blankest canvases to begin with. that's the

00:14:14.059 --> 00:14:15.980
thing that i think is so interesting they're

00:14:15.980 --> 00:14:19.980
the dumbest blankest canvases and like we can

00:14:19.980 --> 00:14:22.580
project our all of our values onto them or whatever

00:14:22.580 --> 00:14:25.600
yeah and i wouldn't say they're all like dumb

00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:28.340
i mean some of them are pilots you know or were

00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:31.940
pilots yeah but it's not like the seven of these

00:14:31.940 --> 00:14:35.279
guys are necessarily the best pilots they're

00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.860
not all the most experienced pilots they're just

00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:40.820
the guys who could pass all these tests right

00:14:40.820 --> 00:14:43.679
and meet all these like arbitrary criteria that

00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:45.919
like the government set up and i also think it's

00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:48.139
it's the ones who are like in the movie at least

00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:50.159
what's emphasized is the ones who are willing

00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:53.259
to do it yeah it's it's the ones who are willing

00:14:53.259 --> 00:14:56.600
to have a big piece of metal shoved through their

00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.139
hand and then have electrodes shot through it

00:14:59.139 --> 00:15:02.620
until their arm just like falls dead like just

00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.240
For no reason other than, well, it would take

00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.100
too long to explain it to you. Well, also very

00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:11.679
demeaning shit, like having rectal thermometers.

00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.240
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like during the tests and

00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:16.159
stuff like that and having to give themselves

00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:18.840
enemas every day. Right. You know, like they're

00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:20.860
being subjected to the most like dehumanizing

00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:22.399
shit. Exactly. You know what I mean? Exactly.

00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:25.720
They're being dehumanized. Yeah, yeah. But they're

00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:28.220
being turned into a piece of a machine. They're

00:15:28.220 --> 00:15:30.940
being turned into an object. They're being dehumanized.

00:15:31.820 --> 00:15:33.279
And that's why they have the right stuff is because

00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.580
they're blank enough to begin with that they

00:15:35.580 --> 00:15:38.519
are willing to do something where one in four

00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.039
people... The thing is, Chuck Yeager was willing

00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:43.200
to do something where one in four people die

00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.139
because he was a fucking man. You know what I

00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:47.960
mean? And because he was good at it and he was

00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:52.679
a war hero type of the cowboy that we all look

00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:54.700
up to and want to be. These guys have the right

00:15:54.700 --> 00:15:58.100
stuff because they are willing to let the government

00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:01.000
put enemas in them to the point where they are.

00:16:01.710 --> 00:16:05.470
emasculated and dehumanized into being an object

00:16:05.470 --> 00:16:09.149
sure but of course the other thing that the book

00:16:09.149 --> 00:16:12.110
talks about more explicitly than the movie is

00:16:12.110 --> 00:16:14.649
the idea that the pilot has an incredibly huge

00:16:14.649 --> 00:16:17.230
ego that there's just like something about being

00:16:17.230 --> 00:16:20.950
a pilot that leads towards this gargantuan ego

00:16:20.950 --> 00:16:24.129
like it describes like when you're flying in

00:16:24.129 --> 00:16:27.340
the jet and you're miles above the earth how

00:16:27.340 --> 00:16:30.460
you just see yourself as, like, this godlike

00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.419
entity or something. That, like, you see the

00:16:32.419 --> 00:16:34.019
world below and you just say, look at all those

00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:37.299
ants. Look at all these tiny -ass people. These

00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:39.100
people who are going to get into their cars and

00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:41.759
drive to work and go through these routines.

00:16:41.899 --> 00:16:44.080
Like, there's something, like, omnipotent or

00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:46.659
whatever about being up there and looking down

00:16:46.659 --> 00:16:50.059
on everyone. And I think, like, the pilots really

00:16:50.059 --> 00:16:53.360
want glory. Like, Jaeger, like, doesn't take

00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.360
extra pay. to be the guy who breaks the sound

00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:59.080
barrier. It's not about the money or whatever.

00:16:59.379 --> 00:17:03.200
He wants to be known as the guy who broke the

00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.799
sound barrier. There's something about achieving

00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:08.740
these feats and being the next one to push the

00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:11.000
envelope that is a really important part of having

00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.299
the right stuff. In the movie, it feels like

00:17:13.299 --> 00:17:15.920
it's less emphasized that he wants to be the

00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:18.519
one that's known as breaking the sound barrier

00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:21.000
as much as it's emphasized that he wants to be

00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:23.579
the one. who broke the sound barrier. You know

00:17:23.579 --> 00:17:25.460
what I mean? Like the movie seems to emphasize

00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:28.599
much less, you know, him and the wanting to be

00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:30.940
interviewed and the fame of this thing or anything

00:17:30.940 --> 00:17:33.059
like that. And much more just like, he wants

00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:35.279
to be like, no, I'm a God on earth. I'm the fastest

00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.339
man, that sort of thing, which to me seems very

00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:42.319
like bronze age idea of masculinity. You know

00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:43.940
what I mean? That sort of thing. Well, sure.

00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:46.359
Though, though I would assume in real life, there's

00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:49.240
some of the, you know, fame and whatnot involved

00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:51.410
in that too. No, sure. So I think like the, way

00:17:51.410 --> 00:17:53.650
tom wolf describes it is that like a pilot doesn't

00:17:53.650 --> 00:17:55.650
really want to be bothered on a day -to -day

00:17:55.650 --> 00:17:58.789
basis they want the kind of acclaim that is given

00:17:58.789 --> 00:18:00.890
to like the pope right they want to be able to

00:18:00.890 --> 00:18:03.109
like do their thing but then every once in a

00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:05.210
while go up onto a balcony and have the crowd

00:18:05.210 --> 00:18:08.849
scream at them and they wave and then like they

00:18:08.849 --> 00:18:11.390
go back right and keep doing their thing like

00:18:11.390 --> 00:18:13.549
that's the sort of acclaim they want and the

00:18:13.549 --> 00:18:17.250
kind of thing that you can achieve by like breaking

00:18:17.250 --> 00:18:19.109
these records and getting press written about

00:18:19.109 --> 00:18:22.130
it But like Chuck Yeager, even though he was

00:18:22.130 --> 00:18:23.609
the first person that broke the sound barrier,

00:18:23.750 --> 00:18:25.710
like they made a movie called Breaking the Sound

00:18:25.710 --> 00:18:28.690
Barrier after that in like the 50s. And Chuck

00:18:28.690 --> 00:18:30.950
Yeager is not even the person who breaks the

00:18:30.950 --> 00:18:33.230
sound barrier in the movie. Right. It's like

00:18:33.230 --> 00:18:36.670
some other pilot who died before Chuck Yeager

00:18:36.670 --> 00:18:39.470
broke the sound barrier. And it was a pilot that

00:18:39.470 --> 00:18:42.089
just like was more of a household name that people

00:18:42.089 --> 00:18:44.509
were aware of. OK. So they just made him the

00:18:44.509 --> 00:18:46.069
guy who broke the sound barrier in the movie.

00:18:46.210 --> 00:18:50.500
Yeah. And the way he. the way he gets out of

00:18:50.500 --> 00:18:53.079
the situation that Chuck was in is like the exact

00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:54.859
opposite of what you would do and stuff. So like

00:18:54.859 --> 00:18:57.160
Chuck Yeager after the movie is just like, yeah,

00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.680
basically everything about that was wrong. And

00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:01.099
like, if you did that, you would destroy the

00:19:01.099 --> 00:19:03.140
plane. And like, I was the guy who did this too.

00:19:03.220 --> 00:19:07.289
Not this guy. But there's, like, that is also

00:19:07.289 --> 00:19:10.009
a big component of the story is, like, the press

00:19:10.009 --> 00:19:13.450
and the story and narrative that is sold to the

00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:16.609
public about the pilot and eventually the astronauts.

00:19:17.049 --> 00:19:20.829
So, like, a lot of these pilots who are, like...

00:19:21.019 --> 00:19:23.019
really doing these kind of impressive things

00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:25.599
like they're piloting these pieces of metal they're

00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:27.799
in full control they're the ones who have to

00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:30.279
make these like split second decisions that are

00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.160
life and death in the moment and things can get

00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:35.559
hairy really fast and being able to pull out

00:19:35.559 --> 00:19:38.400
of those moments is like what makes you a man

00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:42.799
you know and these pilots are like continuously

00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:46.380
breaking speed records altitude records stuff

00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:48.680
like that but like nobody cares they're just

00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.319
not really getting press especially once the

00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:53.579
astronaut program starts because essentially

00:19:53.579 --> 00:19:56.240
what's important about the mercury project is

00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.119
the space race and the cold war right so you

00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:02.920
have russia launch a satellite into space and

00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:05.460
it creates this kind of panic among Americans

00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:08.220
that like Russia is going to be able to like

00:20:08.220 --> 00:20:12.000
launch nukes from orbit and that like being able

00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.480
to send a man into space is actually like a cold

00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.619
war effort. And the way Tom Wolfe describes it

00:20:19.619 --> 00:20:22.400
is that like these first seven astronauts, they're

00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.980
essentially single combat warriors throughout

00:20:24.980 --> 00:20:28.200
history. You know, like you have David and Goliath,

00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.779
you have all these scenarios where these two.

00:20:31.620 --> 00:20:33.980
warring factions instead of like sending their

00:20:33.980 --> 00:20:36.119
armies at one another they would do a single

00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:38.400
combat thing where they'd have just like each

00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.319
side would you know volunteer their best fighter

00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.859
and they would go at it and whatever the results

00:20:44.859 --> 00:20:48.019
of that single combat fight would be would either

00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:51.240
determine the outcome or would just be like a

00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:54.160
preface to a bigger war or something right and

00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:57.720
One of the defining things about being a single

00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.079
combat warrior is that you get all the goodies

00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.099
up front. Is that you're going to get all the

00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:04.500
women. You're going to get all the riches. You're

00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:06.380
going to be showered with fame and fortune. Because

00:21:06.380 --> 00:21:08.420
you're not going to have a retirement. Because

00:21:08.420 --> 00:21:09.839
you're not going to have a retirement. It's very

00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:11.680
possible that you're going to die. And you're

00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:13.740
doing this very important thing for our nation

00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:15.859
or our people or whatever it is. So we're paying

00:21:15.859 --> 00:21:18.819
you now beforehand. So we're paying you now.

00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.839
And that's the reason why these seven astronauts,

00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:24.640
before doing literally anything at all, All they've

00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:27.539
done is volunteer their bodies as specimens.

00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:30.200
Yeah. And they show up for a press conference

00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.599
and the whole entire nation is going gaga over

00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:34.779
them. Right. You know what I mean? And that's

00:21:34.779 --> 00:21:37.039
like something that like no pilot before then

00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:40.480
had ever been anointed with. Single combat warriors.

00:21:40.819 --> 00:21:43.599
Yeah, I like that idea. But it's like it's almost

00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:46.319
as if. Instead of sending the king's greatest

00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:49.799
gladiator, it's like sending the king's greatest

00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:53.220
eunuchs. You know what I mean? Instead of sending

00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:54.839
the Chuck Yeagers or whatever, you're sending

00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:58.000
the John Glenns. No, no, sure. But I think that's

00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:01.779
the thing. It's not really that. In single combat...

00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.640
Throughout history, you would send your best,

00:22:03.819 --> 00:22:07.839
but that's what's ironic about calling the seven

00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:09.539
astronauts single combat warriors is because

00:22:09.539 --> 00:22:13.259
they're being treated like they're the best or

00:22:13.259 --> 00:22:15.769
like they're these single combat warriors. But

00:22:15.769 --> 00:22:17.849
the reality is kind of different, right? They're

00:22:17.849 --> 00:22:21.349
not Chuck Yeagers. And this idea of being single

00:22:21.349 --> 00:22:24.150
combat warriors is actually the narrative. That's

00:22:24.150 --> 00:22:26.390
the thing that's kind of sold to people, even

00:22:26.390 --> 00:22:29.470
though in reality it's like... It's the meta

00:22:29.470 --> 00:22:32.490
context of the person, not the person themselves.

00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:35.769
It's like the locus of identity. Because in reality,

00:22:35.789 --> 00:22:37.910
Russia's not going to drop nukes from their satellites.

00:22:39.639 --> 00:22:43.339
This whole Cold War danger, I mean, it could

00:22:43.339 --> 00:22:46.000
have been, but it turns out to not be. Ultimately,

00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:49.220
the Cold War ends. Relations between Russia and

00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:53.420
America smooth out. The red telephone direct

00:22:53.420 --> 00:22:55.200
line to the Kremlin is put into the White House.

00:22:55.299 --> 00:22:58.480
There's a nuclear proliferation or testing ban

00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.279
that happens between countries. That's right

00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:05.650
before Kennedy is assassinated in 1963. Like

00:23:05.650 --> 00:23:07.690
this whole entire story, all of this happens

00:23:07.690 --> 00:23:09.670
right before he's assassinated, essentially,

00:23:10.049 --> 00:23:12.990
the years leading up to it. And that's when it

00:23:12.990 --> 00:23:14.930
ends. That's when the single combat warrior status

00:23:14.930 --> 00:23:18.630
ends. That's when... They're not giving parades

00:23:18.630 --> 00:23:20.750
to these guys anymore because it was all about

00:23:20.750 --> 00:23:23.190
this fear over Russia and the fact that these

00:23:23.190 --> 00:23:25.930
guys are at the forefront of a war. And even

00:23:25.930 --> 00:23:28.130
though NASA is a civilian organization, it's

00:23:28.130 --> 00:23:31.130
treated more like a military operation. Right.

00:23:31.230 --> 00:23:34.369
But that's the point. It's all a lie. None of

00:23:34.369 --> 00:23:36.789
it's actually real. What's really happening is

00:23:36.789 --> 00:23:39.240
that, like, this civilian organization made up

00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.119
of, like, civilian engineers and scientists and

00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.259
shit are just, like, making technology and, like,

00:23:45.259 --> 00:23:48.299
using these astronauts as guinea pigs to, like,

00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.799
shoot rockets into space and do tests while they're

00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:53.420
up there. To create a spectacle. Just figure

00:23:53.420 --> 00:23:55.859
out information or whatever. And they're creating

00:23:55.859 --> 00:23:57.839
this spectacle with the pretense that it's about.

00:23:57.839 --> 00:23:59.140
And it's a spectacle that wars with the spectacle

00:23:59.140 --> 00:24:02.680
that the USSR is trying to create. Exactly, yeah.

00:24:02.900 --> 00:24:05.420
It's info wars. It's like a battle that happens

00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:08.539
in the sphere. of human consciousness or whatever

00:24:08.539 --> 00:24:11.839
it's it's yeah it's a battle of ideas exactly

00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.440
but the amount of resources put into a battle

00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:16.900
of ideas like and the amount of suffering put

00:24:16.900 --> 00:24:19.140
into the battle like the fact that we have to

00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:21.559
stab these people in the hands and we have to

00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:26.220
you know all it's so silly like it's so funny

00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:29.559
you know no yeah it's really silly it's like

00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.119
a very funny that's the thing too is like They

00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:34.079
also don't have this scene in the movie, but

00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:37.299
early on, Wally Shearer, who was like one of

00:24:37.299 --> 00:24:39.319
the more experienced, actually one of the more

00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.720
experienced pilots of the original Seven Astronauts,

00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.619
he like brings all the guys into a room together

00:24:45.619 --> 00:24:48.359
before the selections are made. Pete Conrad's

00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:50.240
still there at this point and stuff. And he's

00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.160
just basically like griping about like, yeah,

00:24:53.259 --> 00:24:55.220
but like, what is this going to do to our military

00:24:55.220 --> 00:24:57.640
career? They're weighing out these things of

00:24:57.640 --> 00:24:59.579
like, we're not actually going to be pilots.

00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.079
Like, they know this going into it. They're like,

00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:05.500
we're not actually going to be pilots. This is

00:25:05.500 --> 00:25:07.619
the deal they're making with the devil. Yeah,

00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:10.660
what if this project fails? Yada, yada, yada.

00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:13.160
But they end up signing up and doing it because,

00:25:13.220 --> 00:25:16.720
on the other hand, they understand that, like,

00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:19.460
if this works out, then this will be at the forefront.

00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:23.900
This will be the new frontier. This will be,

00:25:23.940 --> 00:25:27.279
like, the top of the ziggurat. And all those

00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:30.279
pilots who are, quote unquote, the true brethren,

00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:32.839
they're going to be left behind. No matter how

00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.920
ridiculous they think this is, no matter how

00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.740
hard they laugh when they see a monkey got sent

00:25:39.740 --> 00:25:42.079
up first, they're the ones who got left behind,

00:25:42.220 --> 00:25:44.180
whether they like it or not. When they stand

00:25:44.180 --> 00:25:45.920
in front of a crowd, they don't cheer anymore.

00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:47.880
Yeah, exactly. They're not the ones who are getting

00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:51.410
paid up front anymore. And they've never gotten

00:25:51.410 --> 00:25:54.029
paid as well as these guys. Like, the seven astronauts,

00:25:54.190 --> 00:25:55.769
even before any of them get set up in space,

00:25:55.970 --> 00:25:59.089
they get, like, an exclusive life contract. And,

00:25:59.190 --> 00:26:02.069
like, all these articles written about them from

00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:04.829
first -person perspective. So, like, all the

00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:07.049
articles are written by John Glenn. And, like,

00:26:07.089 --> 00:26:09.009
the wives are all involved, too. And there's,

00:26:09.029 --> 00:26:12.089
like, stories written by the wives. But, like,

00:26:12.089 --> 00:26:13.650
none of the stories are actually written by the

00:26:13.650 --> 00:26:16.529
wives, except for Scott Carpenter's wife. I think

00:26:16.529 --> 00:26:19.730
she wrote her own bits, and they just got edited.

00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:24.119
But the life deal paid them out enormously, and

00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:27.299
then they ended up getting really, really cheap

00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:30.259
mortgages on beautiful houses and all this stuff.

00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:33.900
They got so much riches and goodies out of this

00:26:33.900 --> 00:26:37.019
deal up front, which is part of the single combat

00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:39.900
warrior thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though

00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:42.619
there's very little they've actually done, just

00:26:42.619 --> 00:26:45.339
because it's captured the imagination of the

00:26:45.339 --> 00:26:47.930
country. But that's what it's there to do. That's

00:26:47.930 --> 00:26:49.769
what it's there to do is to capture the imagination

00:26:49.769 --> 00:26:52.109
of the country. And it is just an imagination

00:26:52.109 --> 00:26:55.170
-like thing. I mean, they also are sending something

00:26:55.170 --> 00:26:58.089
into orbit and whatever. I mean, there's a technological

00:26:58.089 --> 00:27:01.289
superiority to that or whatever. It's just like

00:27:01.289 --> 00:27:04.490
it dehumanizes. It's not about the pilot or the

00:27:04.490 --> 00:27:06.390
human. It's about these scientists and these

00:27:06.390 --> 00:27:08.529
engineers and these mathematics and all this

00:27:08.529 --> 00:27:12.289
technological stuff that allows this feat to

00:27:12.289 --> 00:27:15.960
happen. Competing like... coding and shit like

00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:18.119
you know what i mean it's like a bunch of nerds

00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:20.819
in a room coming up with some sort of equation

00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:23.200
that does something better than the nerds in

00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:24.539
the other room that are coming up with that other

00:27:24.539 --> 00:27:26.700
equation and they're battling through but those

00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:28.640
are the people who are actually battling like

00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:32.000
are the nerds in the room like these guys who

00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.079
are these figureheads they're not doing anything

00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:36.740
more than an ape and that's like I don't know.

00:27:36.819 --> 00:27:38.880
And those guys in that room are also just fucking

00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.740
nerds. Like they're not. Yeah. Really. It's a

00:27:41.740 --> 00:27:44.680
battle between the, the Soviets chief scientist

00:27:44.680 --> 00:27:47.400
or chief designer, which is funny. They actually

00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:49.640
like, he was anonymous. They like, didn't actually

00:27:49.640 --> 00:27:51.960
know the name of the person who was designing

00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:54.940
Sputnik or any of these things. Okay. He was

00:27:54.940 --> 00:27:57.279
just referred to as the chief designer builder

00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.890
of the integral. Okay. And, um, It's like actually

00:28:00.890 --> 00:28:03.769
a war between him and Wernher von Braun, basically.

00:28:04.069 --> 00:28:06.390
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the movie, they've got that

00:28:06.390 --> 00:28:08.950
great line where he's like, is it their Germans

00:28:08.950 --> 00:28:10.609
doing this? And they're like, no, no, our Germans

00:28:10.609 --> 00:28:13.410
are better than their Germans. Yeah, yeah, our

00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:15.569
Germans are better than their Germans. And then

00:28:15.569 --> 00:28:17.509
he says spacemans, but it sounds like he's saying

00:28:17.509 --> 00:28:20.660
specimens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that guy, that

00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:23.380
German scientist, he's just called the chief

00:28:23.380 --> 00:28:25.299
scientist in the movie, so that's kind of ironic

00:28:25.299 --> 00:28:28.259
that he's kind of like a Wernher von Braun stand

00:28:28.259 --> 00:28:30.319
-in, but he's not actually playing Wernher von

00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.140
Braun. Right, right. He's just like chief scientist

00:28:33.140 --> 00:28:36.720
for NASA. Right. And then also James Webb, the

00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:40.079
leader of NASA, is also not really in the movie,

00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:43.319
but is also just kind of like portrayed by a

00:28:43.319 --> 00:28:45.940
character who has no name or whatever. There's

00:28:45.940 --> 00:28:48.039
like a few characters like that in the movie.

00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:50.029
And, you know, like, Jeff Goldblum and Harry

00:28:50.029 --> 00:28:52.029
Shearer aren't in the book at all. They're just,

00:28:52.089 --> 00:28:54.089
like, made -up characters. Oh, okay. I figured

00:28:54.089 --> 00:28:57.829
that was, like, a stand -in for Tom Wolfe. Yeah,

00:28:57.930 --> 00:29:00.170
they're sort of stand -ins for delivering stuff

00:29:00.170 --> 00:29:02.769
that Tom Wolfe writes in his prose that wouldn't

00:29:02.769 --> 00:29:05.549
have been said by anybody. Right. So it works.

00:29:06.089 --> 00:29:08.490
Yeah, and they're funny. Yeah, and they're funny.

00:29:08.569 --> 00:29:11.769
I like that stuff. But back to the our Germans

00:29:11.769 --> 00:29:13.710
are better than their Germans thing, like, that

00:29:13.710 --> 00:29:16.549
to me, I think, is one of the sort of keys where

00:29:16.549 --> 00:29:19.500
we're talking about, like, These guys on the

00:29:19.500 --> 00:29:21.680
spaceship are just monkeys, not really doing

00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:23.480
anything. And we're pretending like these are

00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:25.799
our heroes or whatever. But really, the people

00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:28.039
who are doing battle are these nerds in this

00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:31.980
room. Like, the nerds in those two rooms are

00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:35.420
both Nazis. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly.

00:29:35.799 --> 00:29:37.759
Basically, what we're talking about is, like,

00:29:37.779 --> 00:29:41.119
a Nazi versus Nazi battle with, like, these all

00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:43.359
-American boys up front and whatever. But, like,

00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:46.660
it's concealing the actual, like... evil fucking

00:29:46.660 --> 00:29:49.160
nerds that are doing this shit and I mean when

00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:50.740
you're talking about the nuclear non -proliferation

00:29:50.740 --> 00:29:57.559
treaty in what 63 what was it 63 63 like that's

00:29:57.559 --> 00:30:00.000
that's like the reason that we agreed to that

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.480
at like the height of the the cold war is like

00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.180
that the amount of damage in the like the atmospheric

00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:10.599
radiation levels had risen so much in such a

00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:12.660
short period of time that like cancer was like

00:30:12.660 --> 00:30:16.140
rising in such a like They did huge permanent

00:30:16.140 --> 00:30:19.299
damage to the Earth in a very short period of

00:30:19.299 --> 00:30:23.720
time, like 20 years. And they agreed to stop

00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.440
doing that. The USSR and the United States agreed

00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:29.200
to stop doing that because they had realized

00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:32.160
how much damage they had already done. That's

00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:36.039
crazy how much damage they did. And that's just

00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:39.460
because two tribes of warring Nazis were in control

00:30:39.460 --> 00:30:42.000
of both of our fucking governments through the

00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.450
space program. That's why it was actually like

00:30:45.450 --> 00:30:47.869
a nuclear test ban because it's not like anybody

00:30:47.869 --> 00:30:50.049
was using nuclear weapons than anybody else,

00:30:50.089 --> 00:30:52.930
but we were both testing our weapons and releasing

00:30:52.930 --> 00:30:57.549
so much radiation in the atmosphere. So yeah,

00:30:57.650 --> 00:30:59.490
and like none of that had anything to do with

00:30:59.490 --> 00:31:02.730
the space program really. It was like there was

00:31:02.730 --> 00:31:05.250
a connection made between the two. Well, of course.

00:31:05.269 --> 00:31:07.529
It's the rocket scientist that came from the

00:31:07.529 --> 00:31:12.289
V2 program, the Nazi V2 program and stuff that

00:31:12.289 --> 00:31:14.170
are in charge of both of these things, like von

00:31:14.170 --> 00:31:17.269
Braun and I don't know. Well, I guess Oppenheimer

00:31:17.269 --> 00:31:19.930
wasn't a Nazi, but it's kind of like the other

00:31:19.930 --> 00:31:22.170
side of the coin or whatever. Right, right, right.

00:31:22.289 --> 00:31:25.630
This is true. Oppenheimer was not a Nazi. He

00:31:25.630 --> 00:31:28.250
was fighting the Nazis. I don't know nearly as

00:31:28.250 --> 00:31:31.009
much about the Russians or who developed the

00:31:31.009 --> 00:31:33.230
nuclear bomb on their side or whatever, but...

00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:36.410
And, like, I don't know. We probably know the

00:31:36.410 --> 00:31:39.769
chief designer's name now. It was those two spies.

00:31:40.849 --> 00:31:46.230
The married couple. Those two spies? The Rosenbergs?

00:31:46.230 --> 00:31:50.329
Yeah, the Rosenbergs. Yeah. Who... I forget what

00:31:50.329 --> 00:31:53.309
it is. Either they totally were evil spies or,

00:31:53.430 --> 00:31:55.910
like... Are they the ones that 20 years later,

00:31:56.069 --> 00:32:00.089
the USSR, when the fall of the Berman Wall happened

00:32:00.089 --> 00:32:01.069
or whatever, they were just like, oh yeah, we

00:32:01.069 --> 00:32:02.549
don't even know who the fuck the Rosenbergs are.

00:32:03.650 --> 00:32:06.269
Just for real, that was not... Yeah, I don't

00:32:06.269 --> 00:32:07.730
know. I don't really remember what their story

00:32:07.730 --> 00:32:09.789
was. I learned it at one point. I don't know.

00:32:09.990 --> 00:32:12.930
Whatever, whatever. But no, yeah, you've gotten

00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:15.970
to the heart of it at this point. The idea that

00:32:15.970 --> 00:32:18.650
this is not actually about the astronauts, it's

00:32:18.650 --> 00:32:21.009
about the scientists behind it, and those scientists

00:32:21.009 --> 00:32:24.400
are fucking Germans who used to be Nazis. That's

00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:26.700
the weird undercurrent thing that's going on.

00:32:26.900 --> 00:32:30.160
There is a connection between the nuclear program

00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:35.380
and the space program in that the bombs at Hiroshima

00:32:35.380 --> 00:32:37.599
and Nagasaki had to be dropped out of planes

00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:41.500
that flew above. The whole idea was rocket launching

00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:47.279
nuclear weapons and stuff, which comes from the

00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.140
Nazi V2 program. It really does just get to the

00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:55.180
heart of this. I don't know. This is still something

00:32:55.180 --> 00:32:57.099
going on today. I feel like the thing that the

00:32:57.099 --> 00:33:00.680
right stuff is really grappling with is something

00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:03.500
that humanity continues to grapple with. It's

00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:07.180
like this idea that technology and automation

00:33:07.180 --> 00:33:13.019
and science, all these fucking nerd -driven enterprises

00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:16.480
are trumping the human spirit and turning men

00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:20.849
into redundant components. overly -technolized

00:33:20.849 --> 00:33:24.829
world. And devaluing masculinity, like Chuck

00:33:24.829 --> 00:33:28.670
Yeager. Yeah, for sure. But also devaluing the

00:33:28.670 --> 00:33:31.630
women, too. Oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure. It's

00:33:31.630 --> 00:33:34.769
just like, it affects everybody. Totally. But

00:33:34.769 --> 00:33:40.250
it's a devaluing of the lifeblood. The thing,

00:33:40.250 --> 00:33:43.049
I don't know, the thing that makes us human.

00:33:44.150 --> 00:33:47.009
The thing of single combat, the glory of a single

00:33:47.009 --> 00:33:49.519
combat warrior, or whatever. Yeah, I mean, that

00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.259
glory being put on something that is just pure,

00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:56.240
you know, acceptance of terrible conditions,

00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:59.799
which is literally all that Gordon Cooper has

00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:02.119
to go through. You know what I mean? And like,

00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:04.980
I mean, the thing is like, and also like knowing

00:34:04.980 --> 00:34:07.140
that they're going to die. I mean, I love the

00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.519
final scene of the right stuff where it's just

00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:13.349
like. For one day, like, Gordon Cooper was the...

00:34:13.349 --> 00:34:15.030
Or, like, three months later, like, they all

00:34:15.030 --> 00:34:17.570
died. But for three months, Gordon Cooper was

00:34:17.570 --> 00:34:19.730
the fastest man or the highest man in the world

00:34:19.730 --> 00:34:21.710
or whatever. And it was just like... He was the

00:34:21.710 --> 00:34:23.170
greatest astronaut in the planet. Yeah, the greatest

00:34:23.170 --> 00:34:25.329
astronaut to ever fly or whatever. It's like,

00:34:25.329 --> 00:34:27.289
yeah, yeah, yeah, you had three months. You got

00:34:27.289 --> 00:34:29.309
three months, and then you died because that

00:34:29.309 --> 00:34:31.550
was what, you know, the deal was. Like, you were

00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:33.570
just dumb enough to do that. Yeah, for sure.

00:34:33.730 --> 00:34:36.510
For that. Like, what do you get out of this?

00:34:36.570 --> 00:34:39.449
Like, these lame barbecues with your wife outside

00:34:39.449 --> 00:34:42.000
of... the zone where all your friends are dying

00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:45.559
like it's all well no the idea the idea is that

00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:47.679
you get the idea is that this is the other thing

00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.179
the book like gets into more than the movie but

00:34:50.179 --> 00:34:52.380
the book is much more explicit about the goodies

00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:54.780
like the movie doesn't even mention the life

00:34:54.780 --> 00:34:56.880
contract i'm pretty sure it doesn't really talk

00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:58.619
about the houses they get it doesn't really talk

00:34:58.619 --> 00:35:01.260
about actually all the stuff that they get out

00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:03.780
of it so like a part of the thing is that like

00:35:04.539 --> 00:35:06.940
Once all this fame and acclaim starts coming

00:35:06.940 --> 00:35:09.079
to these astronauts, they fucking eat it up,

00:35:09.099 --> 00:35:11.639
dude. That's what they're there for. They love

00:35:11.639 --> 00:35:14.579
it. They don't care that they're going to die

00:35:14.579 --> 00:35:17.840
in a tin can or whatever. I'm sure they love

00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:19.860
it. I'm sure their wives love it. I'm sure they

00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:23.719
all are the type of people who are willing to

00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:28.940
live this life. But that to me is so banal. Yeah,

00:35:28.940 --> 00:35:33.179
Al Shepard is a... the first man, the first American

00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:36.940
in orbit. Sorry. He's the first American to fly

00:35:36.940 --> 00:35:39.760
a suborbital flight. And like after that, he

00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:41.980
gets this huge parade. He gets to meet John F.

00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.739
Kennedy and like his wife and they're having

00:35:44.739 --> 00:35:48.639
dinner and there's all this stuff. But it's like,

00:35:48.639 --> 00:35:50.840
it's similar. It's very similar to the spoils

00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:54.119
of war in the zone of interest. You know what

00:35:54.119 --> 00:35:56.760
I mean? For sure. You can live this like totally

00:35:56.760 --> 00:36:00.360
banal, like family life, like right outside of

00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.889
this, you know concentration camp but like you

00:36:02.889 --> 00:36:05.590
get like really nice clothes and you get to talk

00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:12.869
to hitler no for sure like it's almost the same

00:36:12.869 --> 00:36:15.170
job even it's almost the same job of like the

00:36:15.170 --> 00:36:18.449
job is just like putting blinders on to the point

00:36:18.449 --> 00:36:20.690
where you can get through something that is like

00:36:20.690 --> 00:36:24.929
this dumb like and horribly dumb you can watch

00:36:24.929 --> 00:36:26.889
all your friends die versus like kill people

00:36:26.889 --> 00:36:29.559
like it's all just like And what you care about

00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:31.940
is being promoted and getting the better house.

00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.320
And like, it doesn't matter what is going on.

00:36:34.360 --> 00:36:36.519
It doesn't matter that you're going to die. It

00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:40.039
doesn't like, yeah. And yeah. I mean, zone of

00:36:40.039 --> 00:36:41.780
interest. What matters is that he's not going

00:36:41.780 --> 00:36:44.739
to be remembered as the, you know, but I don't

00:36:44.739 --> 00:36:47.719
know. Yeah, exactly. Not to get into the zone

00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:50.199
of interest, but that's a good one. It's a good

00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:53.960
one. It makes the point very succinctly. Yeah.

00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:57.659
Like Alan Shepard gets all the goodies. But then

00:36:57.659 --> 00:36:59.980
John Glenn is like, he does the third. He's the

00:36:59.980 --> 00:37:02.280
first guy to go into orbit to do like an orbit

00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:05.840
around Earth. And when he comes back, he becomes

00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:08.019
like a national hero. John Glenn ends up being

00:37:08.019 --> 00:37:10.699
like number one and the one who gets the most

00:37:10.699 --> 00:37:14.460
goodies. kind of, like, is remembered as one

00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:16.199
of the greatest astronauts and stuff like that.

00:37:16.460 --> 00:37:18.099
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember he flew

00:37:18.099 --> 00:37:21.219
some other flight when we were kids, and, like,

00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:23.840
we cared about it for some reason in America.

00:37:24.119 --> 00:37:26.219
It was like, oh, John Glenn's going back up.

00:37:27.219 --> 00:37:30.099
So I knew John Glenn's name as a kid for whatever

00:37:30.099 --> 00:37:33.500
reason, like, even in the 90s, like, which I

00:37:33.500 --> 00:37:35.420
don't remember what his flight was or why there

00:37:35.420 --> 00:37:37.739
was an astronaut going up for anything, but it

00:37:37.739 --> 00:37:40.260
happened. Sure. Didn't it? Yeah. Or maybe he

00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:43.110
just died. I don't know. I don't remember. He

00:37:43.110 --> 00:37:45.190
might have just died in the 90s or something.

00:37:45.449 --> 00:37:47.610
I don't know. I mean, I feel like he probably

00:37:47.610 --> 00:37:49.949
made it into the early 2000s or something. A

00:37:49.949 --> 00:37:52.670
lot of these guys did. But not Gus Grissom. I

00:37:52.670 --> 00:37:55.389
wanted to make a point about the sadness of Gus

00:37:55.389 --> 00:37:58.730
Grissom. He's the guy who goes through all the

00:37:58.730 --> 00:38:00.610
same shit and does all the same things, but for

00:38:00.610 --> 00:38:02.849
whatever reason, he doesn't get the goodies.

00:38:03.369 --> 00:38:05.869
Because the hatch blows or whatever. He blows

00:38:05.869 --> 00:38:09.449
the hatch. In the movie, well, it's generally

00:38:09.449 --> 00:38:11.969
accepted now that it was a malfunction. Oh, really?

00:38:12.130 --> 00:38:14.449
You can now read about that. Oh, wow. Yeah, because,

00:38:14.530 --> 00:38:16.329
like... Well, in the movie, they do say, like,

00:38:16.329 --> 00:38:20.469
we dropped it from, you know, 500 feet, and it's

00:38:20.469 --> 00:38:21.530
never done this. Yeah, they say that in the book,

00:38:21.530 --> 00:38:22.409
too. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, you dropped it

00:38:22.409 --> 00:38:24.769
from 500 feet? Like, you know, it came out of,

00:38:24.769 --> 00:38:27.349
like, a billion feet, right? Like, you know,

00:38:27.369 --> 00:38:29.230
it fell from, like, way higher than that through,

00:38:29.289 --> 00:38:31.210
like, the entire atmosphere. Like, that doesn't

00:38:31.210 --> 00:38:33.730
seem like your tests have actually done the thing

00:38:33.730 --> 00:38:36.929
that he just did. No, yeah, they say in the book

00:38:36.929 --> 00:38:40.199
and the movie... the same thing like it's it's

00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:42.260
most likely he blew the hatch and he just doesn't

00:38:42.260 --> 00:38:44.159
want to admit it and he got panicked or something

00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:48.199
or he accidentally bumped it or whatever but

00:38:48.199 --> 00:38:51.880
the the theory now in hindsight is that like

00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:54.780
it was a malfunction that like if he had blown

00:38:54.780 --> 00:38:56.380
the hatch he would have a bruise on his hand

00:38:56.380 --> 00:38:58.940
that wasn't there and one of the later pilots

00:38:58.940 --> 00:39:01.940
proved that like when you blow the hatch it'll

00:39:01.940 --> 00:39:05.590
put a bruise on your hand and like that there

00:39:05.590 --> 00:39:08.289
was a specific component latch thing on the outside

00:39:08.289 --> 00:39:11.030
of the door that had failed, that they improved

00:39:11.030 --> 00:39:16.170
upon in later launches or whatever. So the consensus

00:39:16.170 --> 00:39:22.190
now is that Gus got fucked. It was a technical

00:39:22.190 --> 00:39:25.769
malfunction, but as we know, these things are

00:39:25.769 --> 00:39:28.730
always due to human error. Right, right. I am

00:39:28.730 --> 00:39:30.789
flawless. I will never make a mistake. Right,

00:39:30.789 --> 00:39:34.789
of course, of course. And that's the age -old

00:39:34.789 --> 00:39:37.389
excuse for any pilot who sort of, like, fucks

00:39:37.389 --> 00:39:39.690
up in the plane crashes is, like, something happened

00:39:39.690 --> 00:39:42.849
with the machinery. And, like, this goes back

00:39:42.849 --> 00:39:46.190
to, like, the initial brethren of pilots and

00:39:46.190 --> 00:39:48.590
whatever is that, like, whenever a pilot dies,

00:39:48.750 --> 00:39:51.150
it's always the pilot's fault. Like, it's never

00:39:51.150 --> 00:39:53.210
going to be a mechanical error. It's like, nah,

00:39:53.269 --> 00:39:55.250
man, it's like it's because you didn't have the

00:39:55.250 --> 00:39:58.639
right stuff. It's like if things fail. you still

00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:00.099
have to have the right stuff to pull yourself

00:40:00.099 --> 00:40:03.000
out of the situation. And like, they have no

00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:06.360
real like empathy for their, for their dead brothers.

00:40:06.860 --> 00:40:09.159
They like kind of talk about them like, well,

00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.199
they fucked up and I guess they didn't have,

00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.119
they couldn't cut it and whatever, you know,

00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:16.719
and they won't directly mention like the right

00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:18.340
stuff, but they all know what they're talking

00:40:18.340 --> 00:40:21.559
about. That's the whole point is that like, it's

00:40:21.559 --> 00:40:24.349
not the machine that fails. It's the human. And,

00:40:24.369 --> 00:40:27.409
like, I'm not sure if that's a fair way to frame

00:40:27.409 --> 00:40:29.570
it, but that was the mindset. That was the way

00:40:29.570 --> 00:40:32.070
they all thought. And that same ideology is on

00:40:32.070 --> 00:40:34.250
display, I'd say, in Only Angels Have Wings.

00:40:34.690 --> 00:40:37.389
A classic Hollywood movie about pilots. It's

00:40:37.389 --> 00:40:39.110
great. Same ideology. Yeah, I haven't seen that

00:40:39.110 --> 00:40:42.250
one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tough guy, like, you know,

00:40:42.250 --> 00:40:44.550
he died, he died, you know? Yeah, like, you're

00:40:44.550 --> 00:40:46.849
in control. Like, it's not some, there wasn't

00:40:46.849 --> 00:40:48.730
something out of your control, and if there was,

00:40:48.789 --> 00:40:50.510
you have to have, like, the right stuff to pull

00:40:50.510 --> 00:40:53.460
out of that. Right, right. You know? And, like,

00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.219
if you buy the farm, that means you just didn't

00:40:56.219 --> 00:40:58.699
have the right stuff and whatever. And that continues

00:40:58.699 --> 00:41:01.059
to be true with the astronauts, too, even though

00:41:01.059 --> 00:41:03.340
literally everything is automated and, like,

00:41:03.340 --> 00:41:06.400
it's all determined by a machine. And, like,

00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:09.039
what, they can't blame the machine if it malfunctions

00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:12.500
or whatever? Right. He's literally just an ape.

00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:16.340
Yeah. It's not their fault if the hatch blows

00:41:16.340 --> 00:41:19.900
or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Gus gets really

00:41:19.900 --> 00:41:23.349
fucked over because, like, You know, like publicly

00:41:23.349 --> 00:41:27.530
his flight is presented as a success. Tom Wolfe

00:41:27.530 --> 00:41:29.530
calls this as the unscrewable pooch. It's like

00:41:29.530 --> 00:41:31.329
no matter what happens, these astronauts aren't

00:41:31.329 --> 00:41:33.690
going to fuck up in the public eye because they

00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:36.150
need to keep getting the funding. But everyone

00:41:36.150 --> 00:41:38.650
at NASA and all the other pilots know that Gus

00:41:38.650 --> 00:41:40.429
fucked up. He panicked or something and he hit

00:41:40.429 --> 00:41:43.829
the button. And that's why Gus doesn't get a

00:41:43.829 --> 00:41:46.150
parade. Like his wife is so upset about it too.

00:41:46.269 --> 00:41:50.730
Like they – he like lands. and all he gets is

00:41:50.730 --> 00:41:53.590
this little ceremony on an Air Force base with

00:41:53.590 --> 00:41:56.230
James Webb gives him a medal instead of John

00:41:56.230 --> 00:41:59.070
F. Kennedy and whatever. And literally every

00:41:59.070 --> 00:42:01.150
other astronaut after him gets a parade, gets

00:42:01.150 --> 00:42:03.889
to meet the president, all this stuff. Gus is

00:42:03.889 --> 00:42:08.250
the only one who gets shafted. Just him. And

00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:11.650
then Gus is one of the three astronauts who dies

00:42:11.650 --> 00:42:16.760
in that fire in Apollo 1 in 1967. So he would

00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:18.460
have been one of the first guys to go to the

00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:22.840
moon, too. He was the unluckiest dude. And that

00:42:22.840 --> 00:42:25.900
might not be his fault. That's what I mean. It's

00:42:25.900 --> 00:42:28.079
not really that Gus didn't have the right stuff.

00:42:28.619 --> 00:42:31.739
No, it's that his mission was retarded. And he

00:42:31.739 --> 00:42:34.900
was very, very unlucky. And things were actually

00:42:34.900 --> 00:42:38.000
out of his control. And if he had control and

00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:40.280
his entire life wasn't to the whims of these

00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:42.340
engineers and scientists, he might have actually...

00:42:43.070 --> 00:42:45.909
made it as a pilot or something, but instead

00:42:45.909 --> 00:42:48.849
he's just getting strapped into these technolized

00:42:48.849 --> 00:42:52.369
devices and they're malfunctioning on him and

00:42:52.369 --> 00:42:55.269
he gets fucking screwed over because of it. He's

00:42:55.269 --> 00:42:57.150
playing Russian Roulette. Yeah, exactly. For

00:42:57.150 --> 00:42:59.730
America. I mean, it's basically the same movie

00:42:59.730 --> 00:43:06.769
as The Deer Hunter. It's basically the same movie

00:43:06.769 --> 00:43:10.309
as The Deer Hunter. But yeah, so... To go over

00:43:10.309 --> 00:43:12.030
the other flights just real quick, because the

00:43:12.030 --> 00:43:15.929
movie shows Alan Shepard's flight, Gus Grissom's

00:43:15.929 --> 00:43:18.150
flight, and then John Glenn's flight, and then

00:43:18.150 --> 00:43:20.110
it skips ahead to Gordon Cooper, who was the

00:43:20.110 --> 00:43:23.429
last one. So it skips over Scott Carpenter's

00:43:23.429 --> 00:43:26.590
flight, and he was actually perfectly happy to

00:43:26.590 --> 00:43:29.949
be a lab rat. He did incredibly well during the

00:43:29.949 --> 00:43:33.690
testing sequence where they're shocking your

00:43:33.690 --> 00:43:35.250
arm. He was the one who was buddies with John

00:43:35.250 --> 00:43:37.489
Glenn, right? Yeah, he was buddies with John

00:43:37.489 --> 00:43:40.289
Glenn. Yeah. Yeah. And he's the one where like

00:43:40.289 --> 00:43:42.250
John Glenn and him, he's the one who wins like

00:43:42.250 --> 00:43:47.130
the ball air competition. Good job. He's happy

00:43:47.130 --> 00:43:48.989
to be a lab rat. He does really well on the tests.

00:43:49.329 --> 00:43:53.070
And on his flight, he is the one who is tasked

00:43:53.070 --> 00:43:55.789
with doing the most experiments. And he's perfectly

00:43:55.789 --> 00:43:58.530
happy to do it. So he goes up and he's like just

00:43:58.530 --> 00:44:01.119
doing all these things in the pod. for the benefit

00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:03.380
of the scientists so they can do research and

00:44:03.380 --> 00:44:05.679
find out all these things. But in the process,

00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:09.659
he gets distracted by all the experiments and

00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:14.440
runs out of fuel. So he has a pretty rocky ending

00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:18.099
to his flight, but he still succeeds and he lands

00:44:18.099 --> 00:44:22.300
it and all this stuff. But despite that fact,

00:44:22.460 --> 00:44:24.119
everyone at NASA is pretty pissed off about how

00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:27.800
it went. And on the next flight that Wally Shearer

00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:30.820
does, They basically advocate for not doing any

00:44:30.820 --> 00:44:33.280
more fucking experiments. Like, we're just going

00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:35.019
to fly the same. Because the reason we're sending

00:44:35.019 --> 00:44:38.780
this up is to do orbital flights, not to do experiments,

00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:41.860
you know? And, like, Scott Carpenter was supposed

00:44:41.860 --> 00:44:44.159
to do more orbits than he did, but he ran out

00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:47.119
of fuel, so he had to come down earlier. And,

00:44:47.179 --> 00:44:50.159
like, Wally Shearer ends up doing six orbits

00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:53.380
just by sitting there and floating and not doing

00:44:53.380 --> 00:44:55.239
anything, not running experiments, not fucking

00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:58.809
around, conserving fuel. and just, like, letting

00:44:58.809 --> 00:45:01.929
the orbit take him and whatever. And his entire

00:45:01.929 --> 00:45:05.389
flight is perfect, quote -unquote, by the standards

00:45:05.389 --> 00:45:08.489
of the mission, right? It's the perfect operational

00:45:08.489 --> 00:45:11.250
flight, they call it. And Scott Carpenter kind

00:45:11.250 --> 00:45:14.090
of gets, like, really butthurt about the fact

00:45:14.090 --> 00:45:16.409
that, like, oh, I see how everybody sees me now

00:45:16.409 --> 00:45:20.409
and all this stuff. Like, I was a joke, you know?

00:45:20.530 --> 00:45:24.610
Yeah, yeah. And then after Wally, it's Gordon

00:45:24.610 --> 00:45:28.480
Cooper. And Gordon Cooper... is the first one

00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:31.119
to do like a 34 -hour flight. So he's up there

00:45:31.119 --> 00:45:34.239
for over a day. He does like 22 orbits. But Gordon

00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:36.420
Cooper's flight, literally everything goes wrong.

00:45:36.699 --> 00:45:39.300
Not by anything he did, but basically all the

00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:41.599
systems just start failing. The automatic systems

00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:46.239
fail, and he has to actually pilot. the thing

00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:49.139
back into the atmosphere and he lands it perfectly.

00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:51.699
And then he is known as the guy who has the right

00:45:51.699 --> 00:45:54.840
stuff, right? Like he actually, all the automatic

00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:57.599
systems fail and he actually gets to pilot the

00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:00.380
thing, which is what they always wanted. And

00:46:00.380 --> 00:46:04.179
he proves that like under duress, like, you know,

00:46:04.179 --> 00:46:06.380
his heart rate stays down. He like falls asleep,

00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.639
like on the launch pad, just like in the movie

00:46:08.639 --> 00:46:11.539
and all this stuff. But the movie doesn't show

00:46:11.539 --> 00:46:15.219
Carpenter's flight. It doesn't show Gordon Cooper's,

00:46:15.550 --> 00:46:19.090
flight really like he goes up but then it like

00:46:19.090 --> 00:46:20.989
goes to the bookend where it's like and he was

00:46:20.989 --> 00:46:24.329
the best astronaut it does like i feel like in

00:46:24.329 --> 00:46:26.989
the book gordon cooper actually does kind of

00:46:26.989 --> 00:46:29.929
achieve the pilot status and like is able to

00:46:29.929 --> 00:46:32.650
take over and show that he is the right stuff

00:46:32.650 --> 00:46:35.050
whereas in the movie sort of admits that and

00:46:35.050 --> 00:46:38.699
it becomes a more ironic statement right Same

00:46:38.699 --> 00:46:40.519
with the other two that you just mentioned. All

00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:43.679
of those would be about a different type of movie

00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.000
because this movie is talking about basically

00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:51.360
how these guys are just monkeys and then they

00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:54.659
die. And yeah, there are exceptions to that rule

00:46:54.659 --> 00:46:56.960
in which, well, these guys actually were pilots

00:46:56.960 --> 00:46:59.179
so they actually did sometimes have to pilot

00:46:59.179 --> 00:47:02.179
and this happened once to this guy and it didn't

00:47:02.179 --> 00:47:03.800
happen to this guy and this guy fucked up in

00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:06.239
this way and that way and whatever. The movie

00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:07.739
kind of gives you the, like, yeah, Gus Grissom's

00:47:07.739 --> 00:47:11.420
the one that gets blamed for fucking up, and

00:47:11.420 --> 00:47:14.179
Dennis Quaid's the one that gets put on a pedestal,

00:47:14.199 --> 00:47:17.539
and then, you know, they're all dead in the end.

00:47:17.579 --> 00:47:19.800
It doesn't matter. You know what I mean? It's

00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:23.579
the end of Barry Lyndon, where it's like, they're

00:47:23.579 --> 00:47:28.340
all the same now. Yeah, it's true. No, it's true,

00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:29.900
because you're only at the top of the ziggurat

00:47:29.900 --> 00:47:32.570
for a little while until someone... replaces

00:47:32.570 --> 00:47:34.949
you right right or you die it's like yeah you're

00:47:34.949 --> 00:47:37.150
like it is like you're doing all this for literally

00:47:37.150 --> 00:47:39.650
your 15 minutes of fame or whatever right right

00:47:39.650 --> 00:47:42.050
which is what's more American than that you know

00:47:42.050 --> 00:47:44.090
the other thing that doesn't come up in the movie

00:47:44.090 --> 00:47:47.010
is that like they choose the second group of

00:47:47.010 --> 00:47:50.710
astronauts and like Neil Armstrong is one of

00:47:50.710 --> 00:47:53.630
the the next nine right and Neil Armstrong is

00:47:53.630 --> 00:47:56.369
basically described as a robot person right right

00:47:56.369 --> 00:47:58.949
like in the book in the book it like says like

00:47:59.799 --> 00:48:01.579
Like, you would say something to Neil Armstrong,

00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:04.820
and then he would go blank as if, like, he was,

00:48:04.900 --> 00:48:06.940
like, doing some computational process in his

00:48:06.940 --> 00:48:11.039
head. And it would take, like, a minute, so sometimes

00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.119
you'd, like, ask him again as if he didn't hear

00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:16.000
you. But then he would, like, come out with this

00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:19.760
very calm, collected, well -thought -through,

00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.780
like, statement, almost like a computer would,

00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:24.059
like, beep, beep, beep, boop, boop, boop, boop,

00:48:24.059 --> 00:48:26.019
boop. Well, I think that this means this or that,

00:48:26.079 --> 00:48:28.280
you know? Yeah, yeah. You're not really talking

00:48:28.280 --> 00:48:31.579
off the cuff or whatever. And Neil Armstrong

00:48:31.579 --> 00:48:35.039
actually flew with Chuck Yeager at one point.

00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:38.639
And there's an anecdote where Neil Armstrong,

00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:40.900
where they're going to do a flight, but Chuck

00:48:40.900 --> 00:48:43.960
Yeager is like, nah, man, it just rained. The

00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:46.880
desert is going to be complete muck. We can't

00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:48.380
do that. The landing gears are going to get stuck

00:48:48.380 --> 00:48:50.440
and shit. And Neil Armstrong was like, well,

00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:53.719
the weather report says that the conditions are

00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:56.059
going to be fine and whatever. And Jaeger's like,

00:48:56.119 --> 00:48:57.420
I don't care what the report says. I've been

00:48:57.420 --> 00:48:59.719
flying these deserts for 14 years. Like, I know

00:48:59.719 --> 00:49:02.860
what it's going to be like out there. And, like,

00:49:02.900 --> 00:49:06.820
eventually Jaeger gets pressured into doing the

00:49:06.820 --> 00:49:08.820
flight, but as a passenger because he doesn't

00:49:08.820 --> 00:49:11.380
want to be responsible for what happens. So Neil

00:49:11.380 --> 00:49:15.340
flies the plane and Jaeger's the passenger. And

00:49:15.340 --> 00:49:17.659
just as Jaeger predicted, the plane gets stuck

00:49:17.659 --> 00:49:21.059
out in the middle of nowhere in the mud. And

00:49:21.059 --> 00:49:23.739
then he talks to Neil Armstrong, just like, all

00:49:23.739 --> 00:49:25.400
right, buddy, like we're stuck out here in the

00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:28.119
middle of nowhere with like no radio contact

00:49:28.119 --> 00:49:29.440
and blah, blah, blah. Like, what do you want

00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:31.559
to do about it? And then like Neil Armstrong

00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:34.119
competes an answer, but then has nothing to say.

00:49:35.619 --> 00:49:38.699
It's just like, and yeah, he's the guy, first

00:49:38.699 --> 00:49:41.219
guy I walked on the moon. He's the one that's

00:49:41.219 --> 00:49:44.820
even more banal than John Glenn. Yeah, exactly.

00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:47.840
Like he's even beyond, like he's already not

00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:53.389
really a human. I mean, what's his name? Director

00:49:53.389 --> 00:49:56.989
who, uneven, but I liked the First Man movie

00:49:56.989 --> 00:50:00.369
about Neil Armstrong. Damien Chazelle. Yeah,

00:50:00.369 --> 00:50:02.809
Damien Chazelle's First Man. I thought it was

00:50:02.809 --> 00:50:05.269
an interesting, similar take on this of just

00:50:05.269 --> 00:50:10.510
like, yeah, this guy is this empty vessel with

00:50:10.510 --> 00:50:13.349
basically nothing going on behind the eyes. And

00:50:13.349 --> 00:50:15.309
that's why he can be a component in this thing.

00:50:16.309 --> 00:50:19.829
Yeah, yeah. And it also portrays the death of

00:50:19.829 --> 00:50:22.409
Gus Grissom dying in the fire in Apollo 1 and

00:50:22.409 --> 00:50:26.630
whatever. There's a few people who die. So really,

00:50:26.750 --> 00:50:29.070
you're right. I haven't actually made that connection,

00:50:29.210 --> 00:50:31.449
but I guess it's because when I saw First Man

00:50:31.449 --> 00:50:33.670
in theaters, I hadn't seen the right stuff yet.

00:50:33.829 --> 00:50:36.789
Oh, yeah. But yeah, First Man is basically the

00:50:36.789 --> 00:50:39.289
right stuff. Yeah, I mean, First Man has the

00:50:39.289 --> 00:50:42.269
right understanding of the space program. It

00:50:42.269 --> 00:50:45.289
feels... It's a little more misinterpretable,

00:50:45.289 --> 00:50:47.929
I think, that it can feel as if, like, look at

00:50:47.929 --> 00:50:50.230
this guy's, like, suffering. It's also way more

00:50:50.230 --> 00:50:53.730
self -serious and cynical. Yeah. I mean, it can

00:50:53.730 --> 00:50:56.489
feel more self -serious and whatnot and more

00:50:56.489 --> 00:50:58.369
kind of. Because, like, the right stuff is kind

00:50:58.369 --> 00:51:00.730
of funny. It's, like, goofy and fun and, like.

00:51:00.929 --> 00:51:02.590
Yeah, the right stuff is basically a comedy.

00:51:02.989 --> 00:51:05.369
Yeah. First Man is basically the same thing.

00:51:05.409 --> 00:51:07.170
But, yeah, it's done in such a self -serious

00:51:07.170 --> 00:51:10.329
way. Yeah. Like Whiplash, you know. Yeah, yeah,

00:51:10.369 --> 00:51:13.250
yeah. Which I think works. It's fine. But it's

00:51:13.250 --> 00:51:15.530
like I prefer The Right Stuff, obviously, and

00:51:15.530 --> 00:51:17.190
it came first, so it kind of already did it.

00:51:17.710 --> 00:51:21.949
Yeah, that's true. I appreciated First Man as

00:51:21.949 --> 00:51:24.710
well. I thought that was pretty good. I mean,

00:51:24.730 --> 00:51:26.269
you say The Right Stuff did it first, but we

00:51:26.269 --> 00:51:28.949
could say even before The Right Stuff, there

00:51:28.949 --> 00:51:31.409
was another movie that had done it first. Ah,

00:51:31.849 --> 00:51:36.269
you're right. So are you good on The Right Stuff?

00:51:36.329 --> 00:51:38.909
Do you want to move over to 2001 and Space Odyssey?

00:51:39.170 --> 00:51:41.510
Yeah, totally, totally. All right, let's take

00:51:41.510 --> 00:52:05.630
a little break. Take a quick break. All righty,

00:52:05.630 --> 00:52:09.690
so we're back. We're back. Have a nice pee? Have

00:52:09.690 --> 00:52:11.880
a nice little tinkle? Yeah, it was nice. Cigarette

00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:15.500
break? It was wonderful. It was good? Cool. So

00:52:15.500 --> 00:52:18.860
let's get into 2001, Space Odyssey. It's been

00:52:18.860 --> 00:52:21.019
a long time coming to talk about what's probably

00:52:21.019 --> 00:52:24.380
one of our favorite movies. I would say it's

00:52:24.380 --> 00:52:27.539
my favorite movie. Yeah, man. But as a way to

00:52:27.539 --> 00:52:31.340
lead up into it, I wanted to reiterate the thematic

00:52:31.340 --> 00:52:34.239
arc of the right stuff as a way to lead into

00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:38.269
this. We talked about how the right stuff sort

00:52:38.269 --> 00:52:43.150
of portrays this trajectory for humanity that

00:52:43.150 --> 00:52:47.289
is dehumanizing, that technology and automation

00:52:47.289 --> 00:52:49.730
and all this stuff is kind of replacing the human

00:52:49.730 --> 00:52:54.250
spirit, and how this is sold to the public as

00:52:54.250 --> 00:52:55.849
not something to be afraid of, but something

00:52:55.849 --> 00:52:58.769
to be championed, something to be proud of, something

00:52:58.769 --> 00:53:00.929
that brings people to tears when they see these

00:53:00.929 --> 00:53:05.139
astronauts or whatever. I wanted to focus on

00:53:05.139 --> 00:53:07.019
Chuck Yeager because I never really finished

00:53:07.019 --> 00:53:10.599
talking about his arc in the book and the movie.

00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:13.519
He has more of an arc in the movie that's dramatized.

00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:16.300
So I'll focus a little bit more on that. In the

00:53:16.300 --> 00:53:21.079
movie, we kind of see Yeager have a bit of a

00:53:21.079 --> 00:53:24.099
change of heart. You can sort of tell that the

00:53:24.099 --> 00:53:26.179
longer the space program goes on, the more he

00:53:26.179 --> 00:53:29.679
feels left behind. And in the movie, he even

00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:33.710
gives Gus Grissom credit. right like when gus

00:53:33.710 --> 00:53:36.869
is in the water jaeger's like nah man like the

00:53:36.869 --> 00:53:39.090
monkey doesn't know that he's strapped to a rocket

00:53:39.090 --> 00:53:42.389
gus knows and that's something like right you

00:53:42.389 --> 00:53:43.869
know what i mean like he gives him credit for

00:53:43.869 --> 00:53:46.309
like putting himself through something that he

00:53:46.309 --> 00:53:49.349
knows is so dangerous or whatever um that's not

00:53:49.349 --> 00:53:51.650
but it's very much like i don't support the war

00:53:51.650 --> 00:53:54.030
but i support the troops exactly exactly you

00:53:54.030 --> 00:53:56.469
know like we maybe we shouldn't be in vietnam

00:53:56.469 --> 00:53:59.940
but this guy's a hero yeah you know And he actually

00:53:59.940 --> 00:54:02.679
knows. He actually is somebody who knows because

00:54:02.679 --> 00:54:07.119
he's been there how much that takes. There's

00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:10.480
something there. To face that fear. Though I

00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:16.860
think it's still a goofy thing. Yeah, but this

00:54:16.860 --> 00:54:18.780
isn't something Jaeger says in real life. It's

00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:20.360
something that's put into his mouth in the movie.

00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:25.840
In real life, Jaeger is pretty cool -headed about

00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:28.769
the whole thing. It's not really conveyed in

00:54:28.769 --> 00:54:31.010
the book that Jaeger is really losing sleep over

00:54:31.010 --> 00:54:33.110
not being part of the astronaut program. He's

00:54:33.110 --> 00:54:35.889
a pilot. He wants to fly planes. Even after he

00:54:35.889 --> 00:54:38.690
broke Mach 1, he set numerous other speed records.

00:54:39.469 --> 00:54:43.150
And he was one of the few pilots who was actually

00:54:43.150 --> 00:54:47.750
lined up to be one of the first pilots to fly

00:54:47.750 --> 00:54:52.250
a plane into space. And so in the book that eventually

00:54:52.250 --> 00:54:55.750
happens, Jaeger flies a plane above the atmosphere,

00:54:55.809 --> 00:54:59.449
but then he loses control and his plane spins

00:54:59.449 --> 00:55:02.809
out and like it becomes a disaster. In the book,

00:55:02.809 --> 00:55:05.010
it's actually like really explicit. He has to

00:55:05.010 --> 00:55:08.690
jettison from the plane and like he fires his

00:55:08.690 --> 00:55:11.989
parachute. But then the seat that he was detached

00:55:11.989 --> 00:55:14.960
from. basically has like a molten lava dripping

00:55:14.960 --> 00:55:18.039
out of the bottom of it. And it like, and like

00:55:18.039 --> 00:55:20.559
he gets hit in the head by the sea and this molten

00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:24.820
lava, like the drips into his helmet and on his

00:55:24.820 --> 00:55:28.780
eye and shit like that. And like, I see in the

00:55:28.780 --> 00:55:30.400
movie, I thought that it was that he was falling

00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:33.619
so fast from like so high in the atmosphere that

00:55:33.619 --> 00:55:36.280
he shouldn't have parachuted at like, you know

00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:37.840
what I mean? There wasn't enough air to open

00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:41.130
a parachute and he had to fall down. Yeah, they

00:55:41.130 --> 00:55:44.230
don't really go into all this. In the movie,

00:55:44.289 --> 00:55:47.309
he gets mangled. He gets horribly burned. The

00:55:47.309 --> 00:55:49.630
oxygen system in the suit fires, and then it

00:55:49.630 --> 00:55:52.489
makes the molten lava actually start to flame,

00:55:52.610 --> 00:55:55.409
and half of his face and helmet's on fire. And

00:55:55.409 --> 00:55:57.309
then he has to break through his helmet and put

00:55:57.309 --> 00:56:00.550
his hand into the fire to create an air pathway

00:56:00.550 --> 00:56:05.929
to his mouth. And his glove melts into his finger

00:56:05.929 --> 00:56:08.539
and stuff like that. And eventually he gets the

00:56:08.539 --> 00:56:10.579
helmet off, and it, like, relieves him or whatever.

00:56:10.739 --> 00:56:13.400
But, you know, and he got really lucky. Like,

00:56:13.400 --> 00:56:16.480
blood poured over his eye and crusted, and it,

00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:19.860
like, protected his eye. But, like, yeah, so

00:56:19.860 --> 00:56:21.760
it's, like, a really horrific thing that he goes

00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:23.800
through. And after that, he's not interested

00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:26.139
in, like, setting records in planes anymore and

00:56:26.139 --> 00:56:29.320
stuff like that. And there's, like, no reason.

00:56:29.380 --> 00:56:31.119
And the whole entire, quote, unquote, space program

00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:33.119
for the pilots is pretty much shut down after

00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:36.699
that. There's no more attempt to fly. jets into

00:56:36.699 --> 00:56:38.500
the atmosphere because basically once you get

00:56:38.500 --> 00:56:41.380
there there's no aerodynamics and like you're

00:56:41.380 --> 00:56:43.139
just you're just gonna fucking auger in you're

00:56:43.139 --> 00:56:45.739
gonna fucking you know spin out because there's

00:56:45.739 --> 00:56:48.260
really no way to control it at that point so

00:56:48.260 --> 00:56:49.960
it's just like not a safe thing to do it doesn't

00:56:49.960 --> 00:56:53.980
really make any sense but in the movie it's more

00:56:53.980 --> 00:56:56.800
romanticized to portray a mindset that mitt jaeger

00:56:56.800 --> 00:56:59.260
has that he's sort of been left behind like in

00:56:59.260 --> 00:57:01.820
the movie he essentially steals a plane and does

00:57:01.820 --> 00:57:05.719
like an unauthorized flight right right And it

00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:08.340
looks like it's a flight straight up. Yeah, so

00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:11.119
it's presented as this thing of like Jaeger feels

00:57:11.119 --> 00:57:13.920
like he's left behind. He also wants to be an

00:57:13.920 --> 00:57:17.019
astronaut. He wants to accomplish this thing

00:57:17.019 --> 00:57:19.940
and do this thing. And it's by his own volition.

00:57:19.940 --> 00:57:22.619
It's not like a planned flight or any of this.

00:57:23.059 --> 00:57:25.860
And so they do it much more dramatically in the

00:57:25.860 --> 00:57:28.480
movie. But this kind of like... This kind of

00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:30.860
does convey this idea of where the trajectory

00:57:30.860 --> 00:57:33.900
and the culture went. Like, tons of pilots signed

00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:36.360
up to be astronauts after the first seven. You

00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:38.159
know, like, everyone wanted to be an astronaut.

00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:42.400
At some point, it wasn't a joke anymore, and

00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:45.000
it became, like, the place you wanted to be.

00:57:45.059 --> 00:57:46.760
That was the top of the ziggurat. That's where

00:57:46.760 --> 00:57:49.420
all the hottest pilots went, was to become an

00:57:49.420 --> 00:57:53.739
astronaut. That's where you get into, like, the

00:57:53.739 --> 00:57:56.340
age of the Apollo astronauts and whatever. Like,

00:57:56.380 --> 00:57:58.380
a lot of these guys were pilots too, including

00:57:58.380 --> 00:58:01.380
Neil Armstrong. But it really gets to the heart

00:58:01.380 --> 00:58:05.440
of this notion that at some point, the technology

00:58:05.440 --> 00:58:07.780
wins out. At some point, the automation wins

00:58:07.780 --> 00:58:09.920
out. At some point, the scientists win out. And

00:58:09.920 --> 00:58:11.559
they convince everybody that this is the way

00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:13.900
things need to go. And you either get with the

00:58:13.900 --> 00:58:16.539
program or you get left behind. And that is,

00:58:16.539 --> 00:58:19.630
like, continuously the story. of technology in

00:58:19.630 --> 00:58:23.210
our society the idea that like well now social

00:58:23.210 --> 00:58:26.329
media is around nobody asked for it nobody thought

00:58:26.329 --> 00:58:29.010
this was like the most righteous thing or the

00:58:29.010 --> 00:58:30.909
way things should go but now we all just accept

00:58:30.909 --> 00:58:33.309
this there's all and like cell phones and whatever

00:58:33.309 --> 00:58:35.389
like you have to do you have to do you have to

00:58:35.389 --> 00:58:37.530
have a car you have to have the internet you

00:58:37.530 --> 00:58:41.230
have to yada yada yada it's always these scientists

00:58:41.230 --> 00:58:44.909
and techno -utopians winning over humanity and

00:58:44.909 --> 00:58:47.530
like real human interests. And now we have all

00:58:47.530 --> 00:58:50.610
this. Even the value systems of those. Yeah,

00:58:50.630 --> 00:58:53.010
yeah, yeah. Even the value system of Chuck Yeager

00:58:53.010 --> 00:58:55.849
is defeated in the end. Yeah. And so I think

00:58:55.849 --> 00:58:59.710
this is like a pretty good groundwork or premise

00:58:59.710 --> 00:59:02.329
for getting into the conversation about 2001

00:59:02.329 --> 00:59:07.019
and the kind of people that like. haywood floyd

00:59:07.019 --> 00:59:12.099
is and uh david bowman and frank pool and their

00:59:12.099 --> 00:59:16.099
sort of reliance on technology in in the case

00:59:16.099 --> 00:59:19.480
of 2001 very specifically ai which has become

00:59:19.480 --> 00:59:22.980
a very hot topic these days right right of course

00:59:22.980 --> 00:59:27.500
and yeah so i think when we talk about the right

00:59:27.500 --> 00:59:30.619
stuff and this idea of the dehumanization of

00:59:30.619 --> 00:59:33.079
people we're sort of talking about a similar

00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:36.570
trajectory in 2001 where we kind of Start with

00:59:36.570 --> 00:59:41.030
the dawn of man and man as an animal and the

00:59:41.030 --> 00:59:45.110
sort of introduction to technology in the form

00:59:45.110 --> 00:59:48.829
of a tool that then eventually leads to the space

00:59:48.829 --> 00:59:51.309
age in which people are basically a bunch of

00:59:51.309 --> 00:59:54.949
robots walking around deferring to a bunch of

00:59:54.949 --> 01:00:00.309
robots. Right, right. Well, so to me, I think

01:00:00.309 --> 01:00:05.030
the most interesting connection here. To start,

01:00:05.170 --> 01:00:08.530
2001 was a project that basically Stanley Kubrick

01:00:08.530 --> 01:00:12.210
wanted to adapt a novel of Arthur C. Clarke's

01:00:12.210 --> 01:00:15.630
called Childhood's End. And basically they decided

01:00:15.630 --> 01:00:17.429
not to do that and said they got together and

01:00:17.429 --> 01:00:21.769
co -wrote this novel and movie script and whatnot.

01:00:22.210 --> 01:00:24.650
It was a really weird arrangement in which basically

01:00:24.650 --> 01:00:27.449
the novel is theoretically based on an early

01:00:27.449 --> 01:00:31.670
draft of the movie where... Clark does not even

01:00:31.670 --> 01:00:34.010
have final cut on the novel. Kubrick has final

01:00:34.010 --> 01:00:37.110
cut on the novel. Clark did not know about changes

01:00:37.110 --> 01:00:39.090
Kubrick made to the movie and the movie script.

01:00:39.230 --> 01:00:42.090
There's all sorts of really weird incongruities

01:00:42.090 --> 01:00:45.050
there. But originally, what Kubrick wanted to

01:00:45.050 --> 01:00:47.929
do was to adapt Childhood's End. And Childhood's

01:00:47.929 --> 01:00:51.090
End is a... I'm going to spoil Childhood's End

01:00:51.090 --> 01:00:54.969
here, unfortunately. And it sucks because Childhood's

01:00:54.969 --> 01:00:58.860
End is a spoilable... Yeah, if you haven't read

01:00:58.860 --> 01:01:01.760
Childhood's End, it's worth reading. And if you

01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:04.840
don't want to spoil it, then sign off now. Or

01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:11.019
skip ahead to this time code. But basically,

01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:15.980
Childhood's End is a book where basically it's

01:01:15.980 --> 01:01:20.900
the day before the space program gets to outer

01:01:20.900 --> 01:01:24.659
space. It starts. You know, the rocket takes

01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:26.800
off and it gets to the atmosphere and whatever.

01:01:27.059 --> 01:01:29.179
And then as soon as it leaves the atmosphere,

01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:30.940
nobody gives a fuck anymore because what happens

01:01:30.940 --> 01:01:34.880
is all of these spaceships show up and a new

01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:37.800
age dawns in which like there are these giant

01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:43.340
spaceships above every nation of the world. And

01:01:43.340 --> 01:01:45.219
first these spaceships basically show up and

01:01:45.219 --> 01:01:46.599
don't say anything. Everybody's just like, what

01:01:46.599 --> 01:01:48.059
the fuck's up with these spaceships? And they

01:01:48.059 --> 01:01:50.449
like sit there silently and they like. There's

01:01:50.449 --> 01:01:53.269
no way to damage them or touch them or anything.

01:01:53.369 --> 01:01:55.989
They're just these giant floating spaceships.

01:01:56.530 --> 01:02:00.670
And then one day they interact first with the

01:02:00.670 --> 01:02:06.809
humans. In Barcelona, they're doing the bullfights.

01:02:06.989 --> 01:02:09.969
And as soon as... The bull gets speared. Everybody

01:02:09.969 --> 01:02:12.409
in the audience feels the pain of the bull. And

01:02:12.409 --> 01:02:15.329
then immediately from that point on, no bullfights

01:02:15.329 --> 01:02:17.190
are ever had anymore. Like they're just like

01:02:17.190 --> 01:02:20.929
these spaceships force people to feel this and

01:02:20.929 --> 01:02:23.369
that changes them. And so there's no longer bullfights

01:02:23.369 --> 01:02:25.070
and there's no longer wars and there's no longer

01:02:25.070 --> 01:02:26.929
poverty and there's no longer anything because

01:02:26.929 --> 01:02:31.679
of the influence of these aliens. However, we

01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:34.900
can't see the aliens. The aliens only talk to

01:02:34.900 --> 01:02:37.800
one guy on Earth, and they talk to him from behind

01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:40.739
this, like, hidden screen. And so all of the,

01:02:40.860 --> 01:02:43.159
you know, humans are like, yeah, we want to see

01:02:43.159 --> 01:02:45.079
you guys. Like, I mean, it's nice what you've

01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:47.380
done for us, and everything's much more convenient

01:02:47.380 --> 01:02:49.760
and less violent and things are good, but we

01:02:49.760 --> 01:02:51.699
want to see you. We can't trust you if we can't

01:02:51.699 --> 01:02:53.199
see you. And they're like, no, no, you're not

01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:55.179
ready yet. You're not ready yet. Like, well,

01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:56.159
when are we going to be ready? And they say,

01:02:56.179 --> 01:02:58.840
well, in 50 years. In 50 years, you'll be ready.

01:02:59.289 --> 01:03:03.369
And so the book follows and 50 years go by and

01:03:03.369 --> 01:03:06.969
the world becomes a much safer place and everybody's

01:03:06.969 --> 01:03:08.969
happier. There's no war. There's no poverty.

01:03:08.989 --> 01:03:12.590
Everything is getting better for humanity in

01:03:12.590 --> 01:03:16.710
a outcomes sort of way. Everything's becoming

01:03:16.710 --> 01:03:18.869
more convenient. Everything's becoming more,

01:03:18.909 --> 01:03:23.090
it's, you know, but then. Eventually, 50 years

01:03:23.090 --> 01:03:26.309
later, when this original generation is super

01:03:26.309 --> 01:03:29.550
old, everybody who was around when these spaceships

01:03:29.550 --> 01:03:31.550
showed up and lived the life where they watched

01:03:31.550 --> 01:03:35.050
bullfights, they're all dead now. 50 years later,

01:03:35.230 --> 01:03:38.150
it's the children who have been raised by these

01:03:38.150 --> 01:03:41.210
aliens. That new generation that has been raised

01:03:41.210 --> 01:03:43.150
by these aliens are the ones that these aliens

01:03:43.150 --> 01:03:45.329
are willing to reveal themselves to. And when

01:03:45.329 --> 01:03:47.250
they reveal themselves, it's obvious why they

01:03:47.250 --> 01:03:50.150
didn't reveal themselves. It's because they are

01:03:50.150 --> 01:03:54.059
Satan. They basically they reveal themselves

01:03:54.059 --> 01:03:56.719
and it's a demon with horns and it's sitting

01:03:56.719 --> 01:04:00.300
there like Baphomet with a child, a child on

01:04:00.300 --> 01:04:02.400
his right arm and a child on his left. Like he's

01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:05.539
sitting there like as the symbol of like, oh,

01:04:05.579 --> 01:04:08.019
no, it's always been Satan. And like that's now

01:04:08.019 --> 01:04:11.719
your God. And that's good because like the whole

01:04:11.719 --> 01:04:13.860
point that Arthur C. Clarke is making is like

01:04:13.860 --> 01:04:15.960
all of your religions, all of your things have

01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:19.480
feared this thing. But really, this thing is

01:04:19.480 --> 01:04:23.440
good. That this thing is technology and convenience

01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:26.119
and science and all these things that religion

01:04:26.119 --> 01:04:31.460
and all of your, you know, childish superstitions

01:04:31.460 --> 01:04:34.199
have guided you away from. Yeah, it's the snake

01:04:34.199 --> 01:04:37.099
in the garden. It's the apple. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

01:04:37.139 --> 01:04:40.079
exactly. But Arthur C. Clarke is saying like,

01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:42.199
no, no, the snake in the garden is good. And

01:04:42.199 --> 01:04:46.480
you just need 50 years of... being normalized

01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:50.179
to satanism to understand that satanism is the

01:04:50.179 --> 01:04:55.840
true light he is in this book saying i mean he's

01:04:55.840 --> 01:04:57.980
connecting these ideas he's connecting the ideas

01:04:57.980 --> 01:05:01.960
of futurism and technology and satanism and anti

01:05:01.960 --> 01:05:05.179
-god like a an atheism or whatever but like a

01:05:05.179 --> 01:05:08.119
satanic atheism of technology and science and

01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:11.780
futurism and all of them are tied together and

01:05:11.780 --> 01:05:14.599
clark sees that as a good beautiful thing and

01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:17.460
that you know religion's stupid and clark's the

01:05:17.460 --> 01:05:20.119
type of guy who you know when the hippies were

01:05:20.119 --> 01:05:22.739
out and and you know during the summer of love

01:05:22.739 --> 01:05:24.260
and stuff he was like you should all just fucking

01:05:24.260 --> 01:05:25.960
kill yourselves because you're not contributing

01:05:25.960 --> 01:05:28.760
to society so like kill yourselves you know what

01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:30.420
i mean it's like if you're not if you're not

01:05:30.420 --> 01:05:34.909
doing a job that contributes to the bottom line

01:05:34.909 --> 01:05:37.230
if you're not a component in the system then

01:05:37.230 --> 01:05:40.130
to Clark you are disposable there's no humanity

01:05:40.130 --> 01:05:43.030
there's no spirituality there's no god there's

01:05:43.030 --> 01:05:46.730
no religion there's no any of that it's just

01:05:46.730 --> 01:05:49.889
the convenience that comes from technology which

01:05:49.889 --> 01:05:52.449
also is you know what we've always been afraid

01:05:52.449 --> 01:05:55.030
of satanism which is our real future like that's

01:05:55.030 --> 01:05:59.030
that is Clark's belief system it's a it's transhumanism

01:05:59.030 --> 01:06:02.269
it's a transhumanist um religion and it's become

01:06:02.269 --> 01:06:06.519
far more prominent sense um obviously and through

01:06:06.519 --> 01:06:09.920
things like the you know love of the nasa program

01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:12.039
and things like that but i think that this is

01:06:12.039 --> 01:06:15.940
something that 2001 is like really really sort

01:06:15.940 --> 01:06:20.699
of doing without doing i think that 2001 is well

01:06:20.699 --> 01:06:24.400
basically 2001 takes place 33 years after 68

01:06:24.400 --> 01:06:26.739
so instead of this 50 year gap we're talking

01:06:26.739 --> 01:06:31.050
about a 33 year gap but in that 33 years We're

01:06:31.050 --> 01:06:33.670
talking about a future in which we are totally

01:06:33.670 --> 01:06:37.969
inhumanly, like we're talking about everybody's

01:06:37.969 --> 01:06:40.269
the astronauts from the right stuff. You know

01:06:40.269 --> 01:06:42.730
what I mean? Everybody has been dehumanized to

01:06:42.730 --> 01:06:45.230
the point where they are components in a machine.

01:06:45.730 --> 01:06:48.309
And they accept that dehumanization because they

01:06:48.309 --> 01:06:50.920
get all these cheap. consumer goods the goodies

01:06:50.920 --> 01:06:53.139
or whatever because of convenience yeah yeah

01:06:53.139 --> 01:06:56.179
because of convenience and and yeah yeah exactly

01:06:56.179 --> 01:07:00.280
we see in the first scene why the apes adopt

01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:04.559
technology as their you know new religion or

01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:07.739
whatever and it is because it allows them to

01:07:07.739 --> 01:07:09.860
kill other apes and get more food like that's

01:07:09.860 --> 01:07:12.340
yeah you know the first thing they do with it

01:07:12.340 --> 01:07:16.670
is they just use it to gain the upper hand Yeah,

01:07:16.730 --> 01:07:20.530
and killing their own kind. But I think that

01:07:20.530 --> 01:07:24.909
the thing that really connects the idea of 2001

01:07:24.909 --> 01:07:27.829
to the idea of the right stuff and the ideas

01:07:27.829 --> 01:07:30.949
of Childhood's End is what we were talking about

01:07:30.949 --> 01:07:32.989
with Chuck Yeager's story, the death of this

01:07:32.989 --> 01:07:37.010
one type of man and the one type of value system

01:07:37.010 --> 01:07:39.750
and a new type of value system replacing that.

01:07:40.210 --> 01:07:42.289
Basically, the death of the Chuck Yeagers of

01:07:42.289 --> 01:07:45.800
the world. and the birth of the Neil Armstrongs.

01:07:45.800 --> 01:07:48.340
Neil Armstrongs, exactly. And those are like

01:07:48.340 --> 01:07:49.900
the new generation in Childhood Zen. They're

01:07:49.900 --> 01:07:53.360
the generation who has been raised on these machines

01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:57.360
and raised on these, you know, ideas and don't

01:07:57.360 --> 01:07:59.960
believe in God and don't believe in humanity

01:07:59.960 --> 01:08:02.179
or anything that they're missing. You know what

01:08:02.179 --> 01:08:05.219
I mean? They don't value family. You know what

01:08:05.219 --> 01:08:08.539
I mean? We see Haywood Floyd in the first scene

01:08:08.539 --> 01:08:10.599
talking to his daughter and it's like the most,

01:08:10.599 --> 01:08:14.800
you know, sad, distanced, phone call to your

01:08:14.800 --> 01:08:17.579
kid from a business trip or whatever like i'm

01:08:17.579 --> 01:08:19.319
gonna miss your birthday and that's just the

01:08:19.319 --> 01:08:23.020
way it goes and have fun yeah yeah and what do

01:08:23.020 --> 01:08:24.680
you want for your birthday she wants a telephone

01:08:24.680 --> 01:08:27.239
like why because you desperately want to communicate

01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:29.859
with your father yeah this is the only human

01:08:29.859 --> 01:08:31.680
connection you have is through a telephone you

01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:33.100
want something more special you already have

01:08:33.100 --> 01:08:36.699
a lot of telephones maybe like a bush baby like

01:08:36.699 --> 01:08:39.180
it's at least something alive it's something

01:08:40.850 --> 01:08:44.409
that's Kubrick's daughter. Yeah. But I think,

01:08:44.409 --> 01:08:47.409
I think, you know, we're seeing dehumanized people

01:08:47.409 --> 01:08:49.409
in this movie. And that's one of the things that

01:08:49.409 --> 01:08:52.090
I think you were saying earlier with the right

01:08:52.090 --> 01:08:55.310
stuff. Like, I think, I think, um, it is possible

01:08:55.310 --> 01:08:56.890
for somebody to watch the right stuff and not

01:08:56.890 --> 01:08:59.069
kind of see the irony in the right stuff to,

01:08:59.090 --> 01:09:00.909
to think that this is a movie that's glorifying

01:09:00.909 --> 01:09:03.930
the astronauts or something. Like, I think it's.

01:09:04.250 --> 01:09:06.449
kind of clear that it's not i think especially

01:09:06.449 --> 01:09:09.229
in the very end with like you know they died

01:09:09.229 --> 01:09:11.590
three months later but he was the best like is

01:09:11.590 --> 01:09:14.449
yeah very obviously satirical i think a lot of

01:09:14.449 --> 01:09:16.409
other parts of that last piece of narration is

01:09:16.409 --> 01:09:19.710
so ironic and silly for sure yeah yeah yeah and

01:09:19.710 --> 01:09:21.630
it like leaves you with a bad taste in your mouth

01:09:21.630 --> 01:09:24.590
kind of like you know what i mean it's uh it's

01:09:24.590 --> 01:09:28.369
falsely i don't know a false positive like an

01:09:28.369 --> 01:09:30.720
over the top Positivity that can't be serious.

01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:33.880
It's sarcasm almost. Right. But I do think that,

01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:35.779
yeah, some people could watch the movie and miss

01:09:35.779 --> 01:09:37.439
that and be like, well, no, these astronauts,

01:09:37.619 --> 01:09:39.800
like, it's funny and it's weird that it was like

01:09:39.800 --> 01:09:42.819
this, but they're all, you know, heroes and they've

01:09:42.819 --> 01:09:44.760
worked against this and it's heroic that they

01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:47.619
tried to get the windows put into the plane.

01:09:47.720 --> 01:09:49.279
Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, like they're

01:09:49.279 --> 01:09:51.000
talking back to the scientists and being like,

01:09:51.060 --> 01:09:52.579
we want a window on the thing and we want to

01:09:52.579 --> 01:09:54.380
be able to actually control it and we want to

01:09:54.380 --> 01:09:57.319
be able to override the automatic systems and

01:09:57.319 --> 01:09:59.960
yada, yada, yada. It's like, look at them taking

01:09:59.960 --> 01:10:02.220
the power back. Oh, it's about their triumph.

01:10:02.680 --> 01:10:04.539
But, like, really, it's like, no, the only reason

01:10:04.539 --> 01:10:05.979
they're asking for that is because they're doing

01:10:05.979 --> 01:10:08.579
the job of monkeys. Like, that's, you know. So

01:10:08.579 --> 01:10:11.380
the underlying thing is, like, inherently ironic

01:10:11.380 --> 01:10:14.159
and funny. But I can see people missing it. But

01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:18.060
2001, I think, is the movie where most people

01:10:18.060 --> 01:10:21.939
have missed it for the majority of the time that

01:10:21.939 --> 01:10:24.939
2001 has been out. I think the way, I mean, I

01:10:24.939 --> 01:10:27.239
don't know exactly. I think that there were people

01:10:27.239 --> 01:10:28.960
probably when it first came out who understood

01:10:28.960 --> 01:10:31.260
what this movie was about. But when I watched

01:10:31.260 --> 01:10:34.000
it in the 90s and looked at internet forums on

01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:38.500
IMDB and whatever, people very much saw 2001

01:10:38.500 --> 01:10:42.619
as a movie that was a glorification of the space

01:10:42.619 --> 01:10:45.180
program. It was talking about the beauty of this

01:10:45.180 --> 01:10:50.880
futurism and the excitement of interstellar travel.

01:10:52.520 --> 01:10:55.479
the mysteries that await us on the new frontier.

01:10:55.760 --> 01:10:57.840
You know what I mean? And I think that's exactly

01:10:57.840 --> 01:11:00.699
what this movie is not doing. You know what I

01:11:00.699 --> 01:11:03.159
mean? I think the whole thing is like, people

01:11:03.159 --> 01:11:04.560
watch this and they're like, oh, the technological

01:11:04.560 --> 01:11:06.979
precision and the whatever is so beautiful and

01:11:06.979 --> 01:11:08.279
blah, blah, blah. And it's like, I think that

01:11:08.279 --> 01:11:10.779
it's boring on purpose. Like, it's not, it's

01:11:10.779 --> 01:11:14.439
not like, I think when you're watching these

01:11:14.439 --> 01:11:17.000
astronauts just like running in circles and stuff,

01:11:17.079 --> 01:11:20.039
it's not. the glories of space travel that we're

01:11:20.039 --> 01:11:23.060
watching. It's the banality of living in a tin

01:11:23.060 --> 01:11:26.380
can. Yeah, for sure. It is very much, like, depicting

01:11:26.380 --> 01:11:28.680
the same thing. How slow everything is. The right

01:11:28.680 --> 01:11:31.300
stuff's depicting. Yeah. How just, like, slow

01:11:31.300 --> 01:11:32.979
and not action -packed. Everything's so slow.

01:11:32.979 --> 01:11:35.920
Everything's so boring. They never actually do

01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:39.359
anything until, you know, until things malfunction.

01:11:39.579 --> 01:11:43.319
But Frank Pool, like, never does anything. You

01:11:43.319 --> 01:11:46.539
know? He just plugs shit into shit that... he's

01:11:46.539 --> 01:11:48.859
like when they're checking on the AE 35 unit,

01:11:48.960 --> 01:11:51.119
like how tells them something's wrong with it.

01:11:51.140 --> 01:11:52.920
Then they take it inside to another machine that

01:11:52.920 --> 01:11:55.439
they just plug in to different spots on it. And

01:11:55.439 --> 01:11:56.800
then it tells them that nothing's wrong with

01:11:56.800 --> 01:12:00.239
it. Like there's, they're not doing any analysis

01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:03.920
or thinking or processing of anything. They're

01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:06.260
not, there's no problem solving happening. They're

01:12:06.260 --> 01:12:10.439
literally just doing like, put this here, put

01:12:10.439 --> 01:12:12.560
this there. Like they're reading off the script.

01:12:12.600 --> 01:12:15.130
Even when mission control. tells them that their

01:12:15.130 --> 01:12:17.710
HAL 9000 unit could be malfunctioning, they say

01:12:17.710 --> 01:12:21.569
it was R2 HAL 9000 units that told us this. Right,

01:12:21.590 --> 01:12:25.850
right, exactly. Yeah, the twin, the twin 9000

01:12:25.850 --> 01:12:29.050
unit that told them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

01:12:29.090 --> 01:12:32.590
I think that sort of dehumanization is the thing

01:12:32.590 --> 01:12:36.470
that people don't really highlight and understand

01:12:36.470 --> 01:12:39.970
the irony of what Kubrick's doing in 2001. And

01:12:39.970 --> 01:12:41.630
I think that that's like, it's more obvious when

01:12:41.630 --> 01:12:44.399
you look at the... the project itself where like,

01:12:44.420 --> 01:12:47.600
I mean, during the premiere, Arthur C. Clarke

01:12:47.600 --> 01:12:50.800
was so upset that he left like at intermission,

01:12:50.939 --> 01:12:53.939
um, or, or at least during intermission, he spoke

01:12:53.939 --> 01:12:55.460
to somebody and said that he was upset. Basically

01:12:55.460 --> 01:12:59.100
that all of the narration that Clarke had written

01:12:59.100 --> 01:13:02.140
for this movie had been removed and that the

01:13:02.140 --> 01:13:04.640
movie that he had written about this, the glories

01:13:04.640 --> 01:13:07.300
of interstellar travel had been reduced to a

01:13:07.300 --> 01:13:09.399
movie about 10 minutes of a guy running in a

01:13:09.399 --> 01:13:12.159
circle. Now, apparently during the, premiere

01:13:12.159 --> 01:13:16.060
the running sequences were significantly extended

01:13:16.060 --> 01:13:18.319
like that Kubrick cut those down for the final

01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:20.539
cut but that I think there were like literally

01:13:20.539 --> 01:13:24.899
10 full minutes of just running and like Clark

01:13:24.899 --> 01:13:26.880
was just like no fuck you are you fucking doing

01:13:26.880 --> 01:13:28.720
this that's literally a guy in a hamster wheel

01:13:28.720 --> 01:13:31.100
it's literally a guy in a hamster wheel and and

01:13:31.100 --> 01:13:36.140
making it be as boring as possible and as like

01:13:36.140 --> 01:13:40.039
there's there's yeah he this is not a guy that

01:13:40.039 --> 01:13:44.920
you look up to Yeah, it's... Yeah, so Arthur

01:13:44.920 --> 01:13:47.500
C. Clarke was disappointed. All the narration

01:13:47.500 --> 01:13:50.600
was taken out. Yeah, well, exactly. Well, the

01:13:50.600 --> 01:13:53.880
narration made a lot of things a lot clearer,

01:13:53.979 --> 01:13:56.819
what was going on, and taking out the narration

01:13:56.819 --> 01:14:01.880
kind of makes what the movie is doing very different

01:14:01.880 --> 01:14:04.319
than what Clarke thought the movie was doing

01:14:04.319 --> 01:14:06.100
and what the book was doing and things like that.

01:14:06.159 --> 01:14:08.159
Because if you think about it, if you're talking

01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:10.819
about... childhood's end and then you were to

01:14:10.819 --> 01:14:13.840
remove the narration it would have a very different

01:14:13.840 --> 01:14:17.439
sort of point you know what i mean if there's

01:14:17.439 --> 01:14:19.840
a if there's a movie about like these aliens

01:14:19.840 --> 01:14:22.199
that turn out to be satan but then you explain

01:14:22.199 --> 01:14:24.699
that like well no satan is actually a good guy

01:14:24.699 --> 01:14:26.199
and blah blah because of these reasons blah blah

01:14:26.199 --> 01:14:28.680
whatever and that's your whole point but then

01:14:28.680 --> 01:14:30.260
you take out the whole explanation it's like

01:14:30.260 --> 01:14:33.369
oh wait The whole point is that what this guy

01:14:33.369 --> 01:14:36.069
believes is Satan, and that this guy is evil.

01:14:36.329 --> 01:14:40.409
You would see the imagery of Satan, and then

01:14:40.409 --> 01:14:43.430
that would have an emotional effect on you that

01:14:43.430 --> 01:14:45.029
tells you, oh, this is wrong, because that's

01:14:45.029 --> 01:14:49.369
fucking Satan. Right, right. And Clark was imagining

01:14:49.369 --> 01:14:52.930
a movie where you would see the Satan, and then

01:14:52.930 --> 01:14:55.329
the... voiceover would explain oh well this is

01:14:55.329 --> 01:14:57.449
satan but you've always been afraid of it but

01:14:57.449 --> 01:14:59.710
really it's the real truth and that god is not

01:14:59.710 --> 01:15:02.369
real and instead kubrick's like no let's take

01:15:02.369 --> 01:15:03.970
that part out we'll just show them satan and

01:15:03.970 --> 01:15:06.989
like it still means what you think it means clark

01:15:06.989 --> 01:15:11.979
yeah it's still but Really, it's like taking

01:15:11.979 --> 01:15:15.340
a piss. It's like totally like everything that

01:15:15.340 --> 01:15:17.680
you believe in and everything that you value

01:15:17.680 --> 01:15:21.800
is banal as fuck. It is just a bunch of like

01:15:21.800 --> 01:15:24.859
the most boring guys in the world sitting in

01:15:24.859 --> 01:15:28.720
a tin can doing nothing for no reason. I mean,

01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:30.579
maybe not for no reason. Maybe the real reason

01:15:30.579 --> 01:15:33.479
is for a bunch of weird, evil Nazis in a room

01:15:33.479 --> 01:15:36.220
like millions of miles away. You know what I

01:15:36.220 --> 01:15:39.939
mean? Yeah. the the it's it's very much the same

01:15:39.939 --> 01:15:41.340
thing that happened in the right stuff it's a

01:15:41.340 --> 01:15:44.800
parody of the space program um yeah and i think

01:15:44.800 --> 01:15:46.319
that what's really interesting is that people

01:15:46.319 --> 01:15:48.779
often think that this is kubrick talking about

01:15:48.779 --> 01:15:51.220
how he filmed the moon landing right like this

01:15:51.220 --> 01:15:54.479
is the conspiracy theory about 2001 is that well

01:15:54.479 --> 01:15:57.680
2001 is kubrick did all of these special effects

01:15:57.680 --> 01:15:59.920
and whatever as like a test because he was filming

01:15:59.920 --> 01:16:01.939
the moon landing or something or he got he got

01:16:01.939 --> 01:16:03.500
money so that he could film the moon landing

01:16:03.500 --> 01:16:06.710
for them or whatever i you know i I think the

01:16:06.710 --> 01:16:08.569
idea that somebody filmed the moon landing is

01:16:08.569 --> 01:16:12.170
not totally ridiculous. However, I don't think

01:16:12.170 --> 01:16:17.750
that's necessary for... It's Occam's razor. He

01:16:17.750 --> 01:16:21.329
doesn't necessarily need to be a guy who filmed

01:16:21.329 --> 01:16:23.470
the moon landing to be talking about how the

01:16:23.470 --> 01:16:25.890
moon landing is just a ridiculous spectacle.

01:16:26.470 --> 01:16:30.069
That it's basically television and it has nothing

01:16:30.069 --> 01:16:32.180
to do with reality. This is what we were talking

01:16:32.180 --> 01:16:34.260
about with the right stuff, like the amount of

01:16:34.260 --> 01:16:39.020
resources and not just monetary resources, but

01:16:39.020 --> 01:16:43.000
like the press, the emotional thing, like every

01:16:43.000 --> 01:16:45.199
all of the resources put into this space program.

01:16:45.319 --> 01:16:48.760
Like, what were we getting out of it? Theoretically,

01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:54.300
there's some sort of science of, you know, rockets

01:16:54.300 --> 01:16:57.380
and nukes and whatnot that we're learning. Um,

01:16:57.560 --> 01:17:00.819
but there has never been an intention to take

01:17:00.819 --> 01:17:03.399
people off of the earth to make more space or

01:17:03.399 --> 01:17:06.699
like, there's no, like the idea that we're going,

01:17:06.760 --> 01:17:09.760
going out to space to like enter this science

01:17:09.760 --> 01:17:11.800
fiction reality in which we're an interstellar,

01:17:11.800 --> 01:17:14.420
like race of people. Like that's insane. Like

01:17:14.420 --> 01:17:18.239
it's, we're so far from like how many, how much

01:17:18.239 --> 01:17:20.300
resources it takes to get something off this

01:17:20.300 --> 01:17:23.380
earth is not a sustained, like, I don't know.

01:17:23.460 --> 01:17:27.489
It's absurd. It's pure absurdity because it's

01:17:27.489 --> 01:17:31.329
not about the actual outcome. It's about creating

01:17:31.329 --> 01:17:33.470
a spectacle. It's about a big fireworks show.

01:17:34.430 --> 01:17:38.689
Similarly, what is the purpose of the pyramids

01:17:38.689 --> 01:17:45.609
in ancient Egypt? If you were a peasant in ancient

01:17:45.609 --> 01:17:49.189
Egypt and you saw those pyramids, you'd be like,

01:17:49.310 --> 01:17:53.869
oh, I am nothing. Whatever it is that built these

01:17:53.869 --> 01:17:57.869
pyramids is great. You know what I mean? Like

01:17:57.869 --> 01:18:00.090
maybe they're gods, maybe they're whatever, but

01:18:00.090 --> 01:18:03.689
like, but it is, it is a spectacle of the greatness

01:18:03.689 --> 01:18:06.470
of the thing that built this. And what, what

01:18:06.470 --> 01:18:09.470
it is, what all of the resources that built that

01:18:09.470 --> 01:18:12.750
pyramid are actually going towards is that spectacle.

01:18:12.869 --> 01:18:15.609
It's not towards like some, like the pyramids

01:18:15.609 --> 01:18:19.090
are actually a portal to some other dimension,

01:18:19.210 --> 01:18:22.239
but the aliens gave up. It's like, no. It's a

01:18:22.239 --> 01:18:25.659
big pile of rocks that's so impressively big

01:18:25.659 --> 01:18:28.880
that like nobody could imagine that anybody could

01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:32.800
have ever done it. And so because you can't imagine

01:18:32.800 --> 01:18:35.779
the steps taken to doing it, it's like godly

01:18:35.779 --> 01:18:38.600
power. Like any, this is an Arthur C. Clarke

01:18:38.600 --> 01:18:43.119
quote, any sufficiently advanced technology would

01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:46.239
be indecipherable from magic. Yeah, yeah. Right.

01:18:46.340 --> 01:18:49.079
And that is what they're doing is they're creating

01:18:49.079 --> 01:18:53.069
magic. They're alchemists. And they're alchemists,

01:18:53.109 --> 01:18:56.710
they're Nazi alchemists in a room creating this

01:18:56.710 --> 01:18:58.829
magical spectacle. Well, that's what a filmmaker

01:18:58.829 --> 01:19:02.590
is doing in a lot of ways. Exactly. It's postmodern.

01:19:02.670 --> 01:19:04.890
It's not about the thing. It's about the spectacle

01:19:04.890 --> 01:19:07.109
of the thing. It's not about the value. It's

01:19:07.109 --> 01:19:10.189
about the sign value. Yeah, and so when we talk

01:19:10.189 --> 01:19:11.649
about the right stuff, we're talking about how

01:19:11.649 --> 01:19:13.850
important the propaganda of the space age is

01:19:13.850 --> 01:19:15.649
and the single combat warrior thing and all the

01:19:15.649 --> 01:19:18.409
goodies and the whole status of the astronauts

01:19:18.409 --> 01:19:22.359
thing that helps push. and helps push the space

01:19:22.359 --> 01:19:24.359
program forward. It needs the support of the

01:19:24.359 --> 01:19:27.619
people, and they're being manipulated and propagandized

01:19:27.619 --> 01:19:30.539
in order to do that. And when you fast forward

01:19:30.539 --> 01:19:33.760
to 2001 and Kubrick, like you were saying, it's

01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:36.180
not a movie that actually glorifies the space

01:19:36.180 --> 01:19:38.380
program, but everybody thinks it does, including

01:19:38.380 --> 01:19:41.640
NASA, including IBM. Well, including IBM up to

01:19:41.640 --> 01:19:43.600
a point. Well, up to a point. But essentially,

01:19:43.899 --> 01:19:48.340
Kubrick, in the eyes of NASA and most of the...

01:19:48.729 --> 01:19:50.850
powers that be kubrick is creating a piece of

01:19:50.850 --> 01:19:53.789
space age propaganda and the year and a year

01:19:53.789 --> 01:19:56.510
later we go to the moon you know and that's why

01:19:56.510 --> 01:19:59.250
all these companies are involved with the project

01:19:59.250 --> 01:20:02.810
like in clark's novel you know howard johnson's

01:20:02.810 --> 01:20:05.850
isn't mentioned ibm isn't mentioned pan america

01:20:05.850 --> 01:20:09.380
isn't mentioned you know But all these corporations.

01:20:09.800 --> 01:20:11.939
GE isn't mentioned. Yeah, but all these corporate

01:20:11.939 --> 01:20:14.899
logos are in the movie. And they're kind of subtle.

01:20:14.920 --> 01:20:16.479
They're not like super in your face or whatever.

01:20:16.760 --> 01:20:21.720
But clearly the movie had funding in the way

01:20:21.720 --> 01:20:24.550
that the space program had funding. And Kubrick

01:20:24.550 --> 01:20:27.770
propagandized all these entities to give him

01:20:27.770 --> 01:20:30.550
funding to make his movie. Right. There's a really

01:20:30.550 --> 01:20:32.470
interesting connection between the space program

01:20:32.470 --> 01:20:36.909
and the creation of 2001 in a propagandic sense

01:20:36.909 --> 01:20:39.369
and getting the funding and selling the idea

01:20:39.369 --> 01:20:44.329
that something is what it actually isn't and

01:20:44.329 --> 01:20:49.380
whatever. Wernher von Braun worked on 2001. They

01:20:49.380 --> 01:20:51.319
were consultants. We had full support of the

01:20:51.319 --> 01:20:55.039
U .S. military to make 2001. It is a propaganda

01:20:55.039 --> 01:20:58.439
movie for the U .S. military at the height of

01:20:58.439 --> 01:21:03.899
the Cold War. Budget was insane. There's something

01:21:03.899 --> 01:21:06.840
really interesting about this propagandic aspect

01:21:06.840 --> 01:21:09.750
and how much that ties into Kubrick's... production

01:21:09.750 --> 01:21:13.569
of 2001 and then like what 2001 is itself as

01:21:13.569 --> 01:21:15.750
either a piece of propaganda or a piece of anti

01:21:15.750 --> 01:21:18.250
-propaganda or whatever. And what the moon landing

01:21:18.250 --> 01:21:20.689
is itself. I mean, all three of these, I think

01:21:20.689 --> 01:21:23.850
are, we're talking about pyramids. We're talking

01:21:23.850 --> 01:21:26.229
about monoliths. We're talking about something

01:21:26.229 --> 01:21:28.569
that huge amounts of funding are put into to

01:21:28.569 --> 01:21:33.090
create a spectacle that pushes the masses in

01:21:33.090 --> 01:21:36.270
some sort of direction. And that, I mean, the

01:21:36.270 --> 01:21:39.510
same direction of, you know, We support you.

01:21:39.949 --> 01:21:44.409
We are in awe of your greatness. You are the

01:21:44.409 --> 01:21:45.850
greatest country in the world. Yeah, and you

01:21:45.850 --> 01:21:47.829
could say that that's what the monolith is to

01:21:47.829 --> 01:21:51.789
the apes. Exactly. exactly well the monolith

01:21:51.789 --> 01:21:53.590
is the beginning of this power structure right

01:21:53.590 --> 01:21:55.590
like the monolith is what introduces the power

01:21:55.590 --> 01:21:57.689
structure because it introduces technology and

01:21:57.689 --> 01:22:00.649
before technology there was just apes going up

01:22:00.649 --> 01:22:02.789
to each other and whoever scares each other more

01:22:02.789 --> 01:22:05.090
whatever but the technology introduces deception

01:22:05.090 --> 01:22:08.489
and introduces i don't know it's the thing is

01:22:08.489 --> 01:22:11.350
when the apes use the bone it feels like a cheat

01:22:11.350 --> 01:22:14.600
it's not like oh, they've figured out this glorious

01:22:14.600 --> 01:22:16.140
thing. It's just like, oh, you did this gross

01:22:16.140 --> 01:22:20.180
thing. Yeah, yeah. You just fucking killed him?

01:22:20.319 --> 01:22:23.359
That's one of your own. That's fucked up. But

01:22:23.359 --> 01:22:26.560
it's like, no, we're the ones with the technology.

01:22:26.619 --> 01:22:28.260
They're the ones without the technology. Yeah,

01:22:28.260 --> 01:22:30.239
it's the beginning of hierarchy that's determined

01:22:30.239 --> 01:22:33.739
not by nature, but by the human mind or whatever.

01:22:34.399 --> 01:22:40.260
Exactly. Well, by technology. Well, sure, but

01:22:40.260 --> 01:22:43.140
I don't know. The technology of language and

01:22:43.140 --> 01:22:48.000
thought. Yeah, yeah, but it's an evolution that

01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:50.359
happens within the human mind represented by

01:22:50.359 --> 01:22:53.000
the monolith. I mean, that's the thing. In Arthur

01:22:53.000 --> 01:22:56.640
C. Clarke's book, nothing is vague. Everything

01:22:56.640 --> 01:22:58.779
is explained. The monolith is like an alien teaching

01:22:58.779 --> 01:23:01.000
machine that came from an ancient alien species

01:23:01.000 --> 01:23:04.279
that put these all over the universe. It was

01:23:04.279 --> 01:23:07.300
an experiment that they were running to create

01:23:07.300 --> 01:23:11.439
intelligence around the universe and help usher

01:23:11.439 --> 01:23:15.119
in evolution to a species or whatever. Whereas

01:23:15.119 --> 01:23:18.640
in the movie, all of that's removed, so the monolith

01:23:18.640 --> 01:23:22.140
ends up just being this enigmatic symbol of a

01:23:22.140 --> 01:23:25.819
step in our evolution where we essentially start

01:23:25.819 --> 01:23:29.739
thinking logically. And in terms of mathematics,

01:23:30.220 --> 01:23:34.550
the monolith has a perfect... you know, one to

01:23:34.550 --> 01:23:37.470
four to nine ratio. And, like, it's all these

01:23:37.470 --> 01:23:40.489
straight lines. It's also perfectly smooth. It's

01:23:40.489 --> 01:23:41.510
perfectly smooth. It's perfectly smooth, like,

01:23:41.510 --> 01:23:44.090
geometry. Yeah, it's perfect geometry. It's got

01:23:44.090 --> 01:23:47.810
angles. I mean, like, everything else for the

01:23:47.810 --> 01:23:50.529
whole opening is totally natural. It's got all

01:23:50.529 --> 01:23:53.350
these rough edges. There's no... And then this

01:23:53.350 --> 01:23:57.409
one thing that is just one shade of black. Well,

01:23:57.409 --> 01:23:59.710
two shades because there's, you know, sides that

01:23:59.710 --> 01:24:04.649
you can see. But, like, just... this pure thing

01:24:04.649 --> 01:24:06.909
i think like i i think what's what's interesting

01:24:06.909 --> 01:24:08.510
to me is when i first saw the movie i didn't

01:24:08.510 --> 01:24:11.069
even think of it as aliens or anything i literally

01:24:11.069 --> 01:24:14.670
just thought of it as like it is this thing that's

01:24:14.670 --> 01:24:17.449
here and it's a black slab and that's enough

01:24:17.449 --> 01:24:22.329
to create all of the language and technology

01:24:22.329 --> 01:24:25.770
and the idea of using that bone i thought it

01:24:25.770 --> 01:24:28.710
didn't come from some sort of psychological manipulation

01:24:28.710 --> 01:24:31.329
connection that this monolith was manipulating

01:24:31.329 --> 01:24:34.130
him into understanding i thought instead it was

01:24:34.130 --> 01:24:36.750
just like he had only seen rough stuff and as

01:24:36.750 --> 01:24:38.750
soon as he saw something that was smooth he was

01:24:38.750 --> 01:24:41.750
like oh wait things can be smooth things can

01:24:41.750 --> 01:24:44.149
be different than the way that they are things

01:24:44.149 --> 01:24:47.449
can be mathematical and like whatever and that

01:24:47.449 --> 01:24:50.409
that that itself was just enough to open this

01:24:50.409 --> 01:24:53.510
door to all of these ideas because it like because

01:24:53.510 --> 01:24:57.100
before you had seen smooth there was no way of

01:24:57.100 --> 01:25:00.439
conceptualizing something that was like the platonic

01:25:00.439 --> 01:25:02.500
ideal. Like that's, it's, it's introducing the

01:25:02.500 --> 01:25:04.920
idea of the platonic ideal, the realm that exists

01:25:04.920 --> 01:25:07.520
elsewhere in which things can be perfect and

01:25:07.520 --> 01:25:09.960
sweet. Like, and then you're working towards

01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:13.579
that platonic ideal. Like before you see smooth,

01:25:13.699 --> 01:25:16.460
there is none of that, but it also like, I think

01:25:16.460 --> 01:25:19.439
in the book, it's much more like. This is a television

01:25:19.439 --> 01:25:21.260
screen that is showing you, oh, you pick this

01:25:21.260 --> 01:25:23.020
up and then you do this. And then it gives you

01:25:23.020 --> 01:25:24.560
pain if you don't do it. And then it gives you

01:25:24.560 --> 01:25:27.180
an orgasm if you do it. And then they figure

01:25:27.180 --> 01:25:29.300
out how to do it. And then, you know, it's very

01:25:29.300 --> 01:25:31.720
straightforward conditioning. Yeah, it's essentially

01:25:31.720 --> 01:25:33.699
operant conditioning, which is what they're doing

01:25:33.699 --> 01:25:36.170
to the monkeys and the right stuff. which is

01:25:36.170 --> 01:25:37.970
something we glossed over, but in the right stuff,

01:25:38.149 --> 01:25:40.369
the first apes that they sent up or whatever,

01:25:40.550 --> 01:25:42.869
they achieve that by operant conditioning, which

01:25:42.869 --> 01:25:45.050
is like if the ape doesn't do what they want,

01:25:45.109 --> 01:25:46.689
they get shocked in the feet, and if they do

01:25:46.689 --> 01:25:49.069
what they want, they get nice banana pellets

01:25:49.069 --> 01:25:52.229
or whatever. And over time, the apes have to

01:25:52.229 --> 01:25:55.149
accept their circumstances and go along with

01:25:55.149 --> 01:25:57.069
it the same way the astronauts do in all of humanity,

01:25:57.270 --> 01:26:00.430
is that it is a long -form operant conditioning

01:26:00.430 --> 01:26:03.170
where the longer you're subjected to something

01:26:03.170 --> 01:26:06.880
and the less you can actually, do the other thing

01:26:06.880 --> 01:26:09.699
without being punished or left behind you just

01:26:09.699 --> 01:26:12.359
have to go with it and this is also how the aliens

01:26:12.359 --> 01:26:15.119
deal with the humans in Childhood's End which

01:26:15.119 --> 01:26:18.180
is through direct operant conditioning to everybody

01:26:18.180 --> 01:26:21.079
on the planet and this is something that Clark

01:26:21.079 --> 01:26:23.319
believes in that Clark doesn't see as negative

01:26:23.319 --> 01:26:26.640
because he believes in Satanism and in dehumanization

01:26:26.640 --> 01:26:32.739
and he is an evil Satanist transhumanist but

01:26:32.739 --> 01:26:36.369
I think that Kubrick is not. I think that's kind

01:26:36.369 --> 01:26:39.829
of clear from the removal of some of these things.

01:26:40.069 --> 01:26:41.989
Yeah, that's what's interesting about both the

01:26:41.989 --> 01:26:44.710
movie and the book for both of these movies,

01:26:44.850 --> 01:26:49.010
that 2001 and The Right Stuff, the movies, both

01:26:49.010 --> 01:26:51.430
end up being more enigmatic. I mean, like you

01:26:51.430 --> 01:26:54.449
said, it's hard for us to watch The Right Stuff

01:26:54.449 --> 01:26:56.949
and not get the point. It's just like it's a

01:26:56.949 --> 01:27:00.460
little more obvious than 2001. The book, The

01:27:00.460 --> 01:27:02.720
Right Stuff, is completely explicit about the

01:27:02.720 --> 01:27:04.380
point it's trying to make. You can't get through

01:27:04.380 --> 01:27:07.439
the book and not get the point. And the same

01:27:07.439 --> 01:27:09.840
thing is true with the 2001 book. You can't read

01:27:09.840 --> 01:27:11.600
that and not get the point. It's all laid out

01:27:11.600 --> 01:27:13.500
and explained for you. But I think the point

01:27:13.500 --> 01:27:15.539
is different. I think that's probably also why

01:27:15.539 --> 01:27:18.899
the reception of the movie was so, or the point

01:27:18.899 --> 01:27:20.899
of the movie was so obfuscated because there

01:27:20.899 --> 01:27:23.399
was a book to go along with it. And that anybody

01:27:23.399 --> 01:27:27.220
who didn't get the movie Because of course they're

01:27:27.220 --> 01:27:29.279
very distracted by the enigmatic nature of it.

01:27:29.340 --> 01:27:31.100
Like what the hell is the monolith? What the

01:27:31.100 --> 01:27:33.140
hell is even going on in this movie? What the

01:27:33.140 --> 01:27:35.880
fuck was that ending? Why is he in that room?

01:27:36.439 --> 01:27:38.600
Yada, yada, yada. And it's like, oh, well there's

01:27:38.600 --> 01:27:40.560
also, but there's this accompanying novel I can

01:27:40.560 --> 01:27:43.039
read. And then you go read the accompanying novel

01:27:43.039 --> 01:27:44.659
and it's like, oh, that explains the whole movie.

01:27:44.979 --> 01:27:47.380
And then you think that the book explains the

01:27:47.380 --> 01:27:51.100
movie essentially. And now like it's very common

01:27:51.100 --> 01:27:55.600
for you to hear. That explanation of 2001, that

01:27:55.600 --> 01:27:58.420
the monolith is an alien teaching machine. It

01:27:58.420 --> 01:28:01.539
teaches them how to use tools. That's the next

01:28:01.539 --> 01:28:03.819
step of human evolution. There's basically no

01:28:03.819 --> 01:28:05.579
difference between that bone and the spaceship

01:28:05.579 --> 01:28:07.100
flying through the air. That's what the jump

01:28:07.100 --> 01:28:10.479
cut means. And now that they've reached this

01:28:10.479 --> 01:28:13.199
level, they find another monolith because they've

01:28:13.199 --> 01:28:15.039
reached the point in their evolution where they

01:28:15.039 --> 01:28:18.359
can read this gravitational signal that's coming

01:28:18.359 --> 01:28:21.260
from the moon. and they find this other monolith.

01:28:21.279 --> 01:28:24.340
It sends a transmission to Jupiter. We go to

01:28:24.340 --> 01:28:26.279
Jupiter. We find another monolith there. It sends

01:28:26.279 --> 01:28:28.960
us to the Stargate, and it leads us to our next

01:28:28.960 --> 01:28:32.039
step of evolution, which is beyond our current

01:28:32.039 --> 01:28:34.939
understanding and is represented in an abstract

01:28:34.939 --> 01:28:37.920
way in the movie. Right. Yeah, yeah. That's the

01:28:37.920 --> 01:28:39.960
very straightforward explanation that Kubrick

01:28:39.960 --> 01:28:43.779
gives to the Japanese journalist that Clark writes

01:28:43.779 --> 01:28:48.039
in his book. But... A thing that is really, really

01:28:48.039 --> 01:28:50.880
emphasized in the movie, even more so than the

01:28:50.880 --> 01:28:54.640
book, is the cover story, right? The idea that

01:28:54.640 --> 01:28:57.560
there is a cover story obfuscating the true meaning

01:28:57.560 --> 01:29:00.279
of the thing. Right. And the way it's dealt with

01:29:00.279 --> 01:29:02.239
in the movie is so much more enigmatic than the

01:29:02.239 --> 01:29:05.859
book. The book just, like, just over -explains

01:29:05.859 --> 01:29:08.140
literally everything. Everything in the book

01:29:08.140 --> 01:29:10.779
is the minutia of science fiction and how all

01:29:10.779 --> 01:29:12.840
the technology works and how the gravitational...

01:29:13.720 --> 01:29:15.979
shit works and what the astronaut food is like

01:29:15.979 --> 01:29:20.739
and chapters about approaching Saturn. It's the

01:29:20.739 --> 01:29:22.960
type of stuff that an autistic transhumanist

01:29:22.960 --> 01:29:25.979
is interested in. Yeah, exactly. How all of this

01:29:25.979 --> 01:29:27.760
technology works. I'm going to nerd out about

01:29:27.760 --> 01:29:30.560
this or that. Because what's cool about this

01:29:30.560 --> 01:29:33.279
is the hard sci -fi elements of it where it's

01:29:33.279 --> 01:29:36.359
like the movie is not a hard sci -fi thing at

01:29:36.359 --> 01:29:38.960
all. It's not interested in explaining anything.

01:29:39.640 --> 01:29:42.890
It's not about like... how the technology works

01:29:42.890 --> 01:29:44.890
because it's like, this is, that's the point

01:29:44.890 --> 01:29:48.270
is that like, this is all a fantasy. The movie

01:29:48.270 --> 01:29:50.710
comes off more as an enigmatic fantasy than a

01:29:50.710 --> 01:29:53.029
piece of hard sci -fi. Right. I mean the, the

01:29:53.029 --> 01:29:55.649
floating space spinning space station, right?

01:29:55.729 --> 01:29:58.510
Like you could say that's, you know, that was

01:29:58.510 --> 01:30:02.510
Von Braun's idea and it's, you know, that's how

01:30:02.510 --> 01:30:04.689
you create artificial gravity is through centrifugal

01:30:04.689 --> 01:30:06.729
force and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Or you could

01:30:06.729 --> 01:30:09.270
say, you know, it looks like a fucking film reel

01:30:09.270 --> 01:30:12.779
and. the whole thing's a fantasy, you know? And

01:30:12.779 --> 01:30:14.359
I think that part of the thing is Kubrick's a

01:30:14.359 --> 01:30:16.960
guy who would say one thing to one person and

01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:19.000
then actually do the other thing. Like, you know,

01:30:19.020 --> 01:30:21.880
he's somebody who's willing to put that in the

01:30:21.880 --> 01:30:23.100
movie and be like, oh no, it's because of Von

01:30:23.100 --> 01:30:25.779
Braun's brilliant idea of how gravity works.

01:30:25.899 --> 01:30:28.140
But really it's also like, yeah, but it's all

01:30:28.140 --> 01:30:32.600
film reels and cameras and eyes and, you know,

01:30:32.640 --> 01:30:34.800
it's trying to take you out of it. Yeah, and

01:30:34.800 --> 01:30:36.199
this is something that, you know, I have to give

01:30:36.199 --> 01:30:38.840
credit to Rob Yeager for opening my eyes to.

01:30:39.840 --> 01:30:42.319
is a lot of these details about the movie, about

01:30:42.319 --> 01:30:46.060
the monolith as the cinema screen, and cinema

01:30:46.060 --> 01:30:49.140
as a form of propaganda and a mind -teaching

01:30:49.140 --> 01:30:53.340
tool and whatever, and how cinema can open your

01:30:53.340 --> 01:30:56.020
mind or close your mind and stuff like that,

01:30:56.159 --> 01:30:59.399
and a lot of stuff about the production of the

01:30:59.399 --> 01:31:04.220
film and that weird 90 -degree angle turn thing

01:31:04.220 --> 01:31:06.220
that Kubrick is doing with his camera that he

01:31:06.220 --> 01:31:09.560
makes the cameraman... in the taiko crater do

01:31:09.560 --> 01:31:12.600
and how there's a weird 90 degree angle turn

01:31:12.600 --> 01:31:15.880
that that like leads into the stargate or whatever

01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:18.619
you know what i mean like there's like yeah and

01:31:18.619 --> 01:31:21.239
and every time every time anybody's docking that

01:31:21.239 --> 01:31:23.619
90 degree angle turn yeah exactly exactly stuff

01:31:23.619 --> 01:31:27.899
there's a lot of yeah um that specific idea is

01:31:27.899 --> 01:31:32.739
referenced in the book in the 39th chapter called

01:31:32.739 --> 01:31:38.939
into the eye where bowman is basically floating

01:31:38.939 --> 01:31:41.520
around the moons of Jupiter with the monolith.

01:31:41.779 --> 01:31:43.680
Actually, in the book is the moons of Saturn,

01:31:43.800 --> 01:31:45.920
but he's floating around Saturn with the monolith.

01:31:46.319 --> 01:31:50.359
And basically, here's how it describes what he

01:31:50.359 --> 01:31:53.720
was seeing. Just a minute, that's odd. Bowman's

01:31:53.720 --> 01:31:56.060
voice died into silence of utter bewilderment.

01:31:56.180 --> 01:31:58.380
He was not alarmed. He literally could not describe

01:31:58.380 --> 01:32:01.000
what he was seeing. He had been hanging above

01:32:01.000 --> 01:32:05.039
a large flat rectangle, 800 feet long, 200 feet

01:32:05.039 --> 01:32:07.460
wide. made of something that looked as solid

01:32:07.460 --> 01:32:09.699
as rock, but now it seemed to be receding from

01:32:09.699 --> 01:32:12.079
him. It was exactly like one of those optical

01:32:12.079 --> 01:32:14.500
illusions when a three -dimensional object can,

01:32:14.779 --> 01:32:17.779
by effort of will, appear to turn inside out,

01:32:17.920 --> 01:32:20.819
its near and far sides suddenly interchanging.

01:32:21.680 --> 01:32:25.300
I think that this shift, this visual shift, you're

01:32:25.300 --> 01:32:26.920
talking about the 90 -degree shift and whatnot,

01:32:27.159 --> 01:32:30.159
but there is also a two -dimensional to three

01:32:30.159 --> 01:32:31.539
-dimensional shift happening. This is called

01:32:31.539 --> 01:32:35.859
a... Gestalt shift. It's like when you see the

01:32:35.859 --> 01:32:37.720
faces... A gestalt shift. When you see the faces

01:32:37.720 --> 01:32:40.220
instead of a vase. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

01:32:40.220 --> 01:32:44.220
like that. Or like an inside... But I think that

01:32:44.220 --> 01:32:47.579
for me, the most significant moment of this in

01:32:47.579 --> 01:32:50.920
the movie happens a couple of times. It happens

01:32:50.920 --> 01:32:54.479
first with the apes when the monolith shows up

01:32:54.479 --> 01:32:58.420
and it cuts to the shot from below the monolith

01:32:58.420 --> 01:33:01.899
looking up at the moon. Mm -hmm. And you see

01:33:01.899 --> 01:33:04.960
the monolith there. And this monolith that used

01:33:04.960 --> 01:33:08.180
to be a rectangle is now a triangle on the screen.

01:33:08.239 --> 01:33:11.180
It's basically a pyramid. A pyramid. And at the

01:33:11.180 --> 01:33:14.359
top of the pyramid is the moon. And it has a

01:33:14.359 --> 01:33:18.479
closed eye. It's the bottom sliver of the moon

01:33:18.479 --> 01:33:22.399
that looks like a closed eye. And this is a three

01:33:22.399 --> 01:33:25.180
-dimensional shot looking up at the sky at a

01:33:25.180 --> 01:33:28.439
rectangle. But if you flatten the image, it's

01:33:28.439 --> 01:33:31.949
also a two -dimensional. depiction of the pyramid

01:33:31.949 --> 01:33:35.489
and eye on the dollar bill yeah um masonic symbol

01:33:35.489 --> 01:33:39.010
um except in this case instead of the light coming

01:33:39.010 --> 01:33:43.149
from the eye how it is on the on the dollar bill

01:33:43.149 --> 01:33:45.710
instead the light is coming from the lower part

01:33:45.710 --> 01:33:49.289
of the pyramid and the eye itself is closed now

01:33:49.289 --> 01:33:50.829
i think that this is this is one of these things

01:33:50.829 --> 01:33:54.489
that i think is super awesome because it's it's

01:33:54.489 --> 01:33:57.529
using this It's using this concept that Clark

01:33:57.529 --> 01:34:00.010
gets into in this very end of the book. Part

01:34:00.010 --> 01:34:01.390
of what's interesting about the book is that

01:34:01.390 --> 01:34:04.329
Kubrick had Final Cut. So the things that are

01:34:04.329 --> 01:34:06.149
in the book are things that Kubrick approved

01:34:06.149 --> 01:34:09.229
of. However, Clark was not totally let in on

01:34:09.229 --> 01:34:12.770
the point of the movie or of the book necessarily.

01:34:14.470 --> 01:34:17.170
So things like that that are in there that are

01:34:17.170 --> 01:34:20.989
super significant in the book that aren't translated

01:34:20.989 --> 01:34:22.829
are translated in other ways and stuff. And I

01:34:22.829 --> 01:34:26.170
think that... Just like how Kubrick is translating

01:34:26.170 --> 01:34:29.090
these ideas of childhood's end and the 50 -year

01:34:29.090 --> 01:34:33.149
gap into this 33 -year gap, the 33 is also a

01:34:33.149 --> 01:34:38.609
Masonic number. And this three -dimensional to

01:34:38.609 --> 01:34:40.630
two -dimensional shift, this concept of a three

01:34:40.630 --> 01:34:43.130
-dimensional thing becoming a two -dimensional

01:34:43.130 --> 01:34:46.529
symbol is also this sort of Masonic thing. And

01:34:46.529 --> 01:34:48.449
throughout the movie, there are a lot of these

01:34:48.449 --> 01:34:53.060
hidden symbols. They all interact with each other

01:34:53.060 --> 01:34:56.060
in so many really fascinating ways. There are

01:34:56.060 --> 01:34:59.539
so many different things that are the same shape

01:34:59.539 --> 01:35:02.420
as the monolith throughout the movie. It continues

01:35:02.420 --> 01:35:06.659
to make this repeated point of it all is the

01:35:06.659 --> 01:35:08.720
monolith. It's just like those hard edges and

01:35:08.720 --> 01:35:13.220
those rectangles. Hal is a rectangle. Their iPads

01:35:13.220 --> 01:35:18.399
are rectangles. Even their food trays are rectangles.

01:35:19.550 --> 01:35:22.069
Just like, yeah, all these hard edge, rectangular,

01:35:22.170 --> 01:35:24.909
geometric shapes everywhere. And I mean, when

01:35:24.909 --> 01:35:28.229
it comes to this specific theme, I think one

01:35:28.229 --> 01:35:29.770
of the most significant themes in the movie is

01:35:29.770 --> 01:35:31.970
the scene about the cover story, the scene on

01:35:31.970 --> 01:35:34.590
the moon with the press conference. Yeah, where

01:35:34.590 --> 01:35:38.029
the cameraman comes in and he does that rotating

01:35:38.029 --> 01:35:40.369
90 degree shift with the camera over and over.

01:35:40.789 --> 01:35:43.649
That takes place in a room where all of the walls

01:35:43.649 --> 01:35:46.489
are just like these big white, like it's the

01:35:46.489 --> 01:35:49.770
most weird set design ever. Um, if you actually

01:35:49.770 --> 01:35:51.970
think about it, it kind of passes as normal and

01:35:51.970 --> 01:35:53.409
futuristic or whatever. But if you think about

01:35:53.409 --> 01:35:55.390
it for a second, it's like, why would you, this

01:35:55.390 --> 01:35:58.250
is fucking weird. And it's just, you have three

01:35:58.250 --> 01:36:00.869
white walls that are just monoliths tilted on

01:36:00.869 --> 01:36:04.310
their side. Yeah. Um, instead of black and vertical,

01:36:04.470 --> 01:36:06.550
they're white and horizontal, but they're just

01:36:06.550 --> 01:36:08.310
three monoliths. And then above each of them

01:36:08.310 --> 01:36:12.130
are little Hal nine thousands that like are.

01:36:13.020 --> 01:36:15.680
theoretically cameras or projectors or something.

01:36:15.739 --> 01:36:19.060
Yeah, they look like cinema screens. They have

01:36:19.060 --> 01:36:23.380
curtains on the sides. And I guess there are

01:36:23.380 --> 01:36:27.000
projectors. They probably are meant to be projection

01:36:27.000 --> 01:36:30.199
screens that are just not being used at the moment.

01:36:31.039 --> 01:36:33.180
That's also not the way it is in the book. In

01:36:33.180 --> 01:36:35.100
the book, he describes that room as having lots

01:36:35.100 --> 01:36:38.479
of stuff on the walls and posters. I mean, even

01:36:38.479 --> 01:36:40.560
the astronaut food in the book is described as

01:36:40.560 --> 01:36:44.159
being like real food. It looks like it and stuff

01:36:44.159 --> 01:36:46.600
like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kubrick's making

01:36:46.600 --> 01:36:50.800
points in these changes. But basically the points

01:36:50.800 --> 01:36:55.359
are the book is from a transhumanist, Satanist

01:36:55.359 --> 01:36:57.800
perspective, and the movie is from the perspective

01:36:57.800 --> 01:37:00.939
of, you know, a New York Jewish intellectual.

01:37:01.300 --> 01:37:04.619
Well, the movie makes everything seem cold and

01:37:04.619 --> 01:37:07.539
lifeless, you know. Whereas the book tries to

01:37:07.539 --> 01:37:09.579
inject more humanity into the characters and

01:37:09.579 --> 01:37:12.260
gives them more to say. And you're inside their

01:37:12.260 --> 01:37:13.640
heads so you can hear what they're thinking.

01:37:13.920 --> 01:37:17.000
And the book clearly comes from a perspective

01:37:17.000 --> 01:37:19.680
of, like, these are normal people like you and

01:37:19.680 --> 01:37:22.500
me. And this is all just cool stuff. This is

01:37:22.500 --> 01:37:25.479
just the next stage of things. And when you're

01:37:25.479 --> 01:37:27.880
reading the book, you don't really get the sense

01:37:27.880 --> 01:37:30.640
of that roboticness, of that coldness that everything

01:37:30.640 --> 01:37:33.350
has in the movie. Right. I think that the author

01:37:33.350 --> 01:37:35.869
of the book is not aware of the banality of the

01:37:35.869 --> 01:37:39.090
things that he is describing. Yeah. Whereas Kubrick

01:37:39.090 --> 01:37:42.029
is underlining that banality. But I think back

01:37:42.029 --> 01:37:44.250
to back to the room, though, with the projector

01:37:44.250 --> 01:37:46.289
screens, like the three of them or whatever.

01:37:46.569 --> 01:37:51.829
And you get Dr. Floyd up front. And when he stands

01:37:51.829 --> 01:37:55.170
and he stands up front, all of the tables are

01:37:55.170 --> 01:37:57.840
arranged. As a rectangle or whatever, but we're

01:37:57.840 --> 01:37:59.579
at an angle, the same way that we're at an angle

01:37:59.579 --> 01:38:03.180
at the base of the monolith in the earlier scene.

01:38:03.699 --> 01:38:06.359
And instead of the top of this triangle, instead

01:38:06.359 --> 01:38:08.260
of the top of this pyramid having the closed

01:38:08.260 --> 01:38:13.079
eye of the moon, instead it has Dr. Heywood Floyd.

01:38:13.720 --> 01:38:17.479
And he is the enlightened one there at the top

01:38:17.479 --> 01:38:20.560
of this pyramid or whatever. But as the earlier

01:38:20.560 --> 01:38:22.699
sort of symbol showed. The guy with the right

01:38:22.699 --> 01:38:24.880
stuff. The guy at the top of the pyramid has

01:38:24.880 --> 01:38:26.840
his eyes wide shut. You know what I mean? The

01:38:26.840 --> 01:38:30.840
eye is closed at the top of this pyramid. And

01:38:30.840 --> 01:38:33.100
Heywood Floyd, the guy with the right stuff,

01:38:33.340 --> 01:38:35.239
is at the top of this pyramid. And what is he

01:38:35.239 --> 01:38:37.800
doing? He's just lying. He's just lying to people

01:38:37.800 --> 01:38:41.640
about creating a cover story. And he had just

01:38:41.640 --> 01:38:46.720
lied earlier. He is a nothing vessel. He is the

01:38:46.720 --> 01:38:50.590
most satanic of characters. Who is nothing. And

01:38:50.590 --> 01:38:53.470
his relationship with his daughter scene is nothing.

01:38:53.569 --> 01:38:57.170
It's as nothing as Frank Poole's family calling

01:38:57.170 --> 01:38:59.449
him with his birthday card where they're explaining

01:38:59.449 --> 01:39:01.029
that like, oh, they're going to figure out his

01:39:01.029 --> 01:39:03.149
finances for it. Oh, we figured this out for

01:39:03.149 --> 01:39:05.729
you. So you'll be getting more monthly. It's

01:39:05.729 --> 01:39:07.380
like monthly. He's not going to be back for years.

01:39:07.560 --> 01:39:09.539
You're talking about how you guys are living

01:39:09.539 --> 01:39:11.899
off of him, right? Basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:39:12.239 --> 01:39:13.979
You're talking about like you figured out how

01:39:13.979 --> 01:39:17.180
to get more money out of NASA. Like nobody gives

01:39:17.180 --> 01:39:18.699
a fuck about anybody. There's all these birthdays.

01:39:18.939 --> 01:39:21.420
It's all like they're so. See you next Wednesday.

01:39:22.819 --> 01:39:25.319
See you next Wednesday. It's all. Yeah, I don't

01:39:25.319 --> 01:39:27.420
know. Why the fuck does he say see you next Wednesday?

01:39:31.039 --> 01:39:33.439
It's haunting. It is haunting. I don't know why.

01:39:33.439 --> 01:39:35.680
It's like a haunting moment. It got under my

01:39:35.680 --> 01:39:37.680
skin this time. It really creeped me out. It's

01:39:37.680 --> 01:39:39.000
terrifying. It creeped me the fuck out. I was

01:39:39.000 --> 01:39:41.359
like, dude, that is so scary. I don't really

01:39:41.359 --> 01:39:43.779
know why. It's so creepy. Because it's not real.

01:39:43.960 --> 01:39:47.939
It makes it feel like it's not real. What if

01:39:47.939 --> 01:39:51.020
Hal is just AI generating that for him? It's

01:39:51.020 --> 01:39:53.640
not actually a real message from his family.

01:39:53.760 --> 01:39:55.739
I don't know. I don't think it would make any

01:39:55.739 --> 01:39:58.560
difference because I think his family is basically

01:39:58.560 --> 01:40:01.659
AI, too, because they've been raised by AI. Or

01:40:01.659 --> 01:40:03.579
at least they've been raised by computers that,

01:40:03.619 --> 01:40:07.579
you know, came around in the late 60s. But 33

01:40:07.579 --> 01:40:10.260
years later, yeah, those people are less human

01:40:10.260 --> 01:40:13.640
than the people who were around in the 60s who

01:40:13.640 --> 01:40:15.180
would have said, like, fuck this. And all they

01:40:15.180 --> 01:40:17.340
talk about is this banal shit about how we, like,

01:40:17.340 --> 01:40:19.159
got your finances together. And then he's like,

01:40:19.279 --> 01:40:20.579
well, I can't think of anything else to say.

01:40:21.399 --> 01:40:25.220
Right. Just like, yeah, there's nothing going

01:40:25.220 --> 01:40:28.319
on here. Yeah. And he's just like not even lifting

01:40:28.319 --> 01:40:30.800
his head to look at it. It's just like everybody's

01:40:30.800 --> 01:40:32.920
disinterestedly like going through the motions

01:40:32.920 --> 01:40:35.039
of pretending like they're calling. Yes, true.

01:40:35.140 --> 01:40:37.439
There's like no emotion on Frank Paul's face

01:40:37.439 --> 01:40:40.039
at all. He's like not reacting to this. It's

01:40:40.039 --> 01:40:43.939
like. Yeah, there's nothing. He's just a component

01:40:43.939 --> 01:40:46.479
in a machine. He's a soulless vessel. He's a

01:40:46.479 --> 01:40:48.119
redundant component. He's been raised as one.

01:40:48.460 --> 01:40:51.510
And I think that what's interesting is. In Childhood's

01:40:51.510 --> 01:40:54.029
End, there's the idea that these aliens need

01:40:54.029 --> 01:40:56.529
to show up to do this. You know what I mean?

01:40:56.550 --> 01:40:59.529
To raise this next generation, to make them these

01:40:59.529 --> 01:41:04.689
post -human creatures. But in 2001, Kubrick posits

01:41:04.689 --> 01:41:07.409
that that's not necessary. That instead that's

01:41:07.409 --> 01:41:10.529
happening instead through technology. And I think

01:41:10.529 --> 01:41:13.789
that like people will look at 2001 and talk about,

01:41:13.850 --> 01:41:16.010
oh, well, the monoliths are aliens that are doing

01:41:16.010 --> 01:41:17.550
this or whatever. I don't think that's, I think

01:41:17.550 --> 01:41:20.170
that's a stupid question. Like whether the monoliths

01:41:20.170 --> 01:41:22.470
are aliens or God or whatever, it's like, that's

01:41:22.470 --> 01:41:24.430
just this thing that doesn't matter. You know,

01:41:24.430 --> 01:41:27.430
like the point is the monolith is technology

01:41:27.430 --> 01:41:31.630
and that's the enemy. Like that is the thing

01:41:31.630 --> 01:41:36.029
that is the religion of the... anti god that

01:41:36.029 --> 01:41:38.489
satanism you know what i mean it's the the snake

01:41:38.489 --> 01:41:44.029
in the garden it's satan and clark thinks it's

01:41:44.029 --> 01:41:46.350
satan like it's not there's not even like a question

01:41:46.350 --> 01:41:49.449
about what both of these people think satan is

01:41:49.449 --> 01:41:51.270
it's just that clark thinks satan is a great

01:41:51.270 --> 01:41:53.949
thing whereas kubrick thinks it's not hippies

01:41:53.949 --> 01:41:57.399
should go kill themselves exactly exactly And

01:41:57.399 --> 01:41:59.699
by removing all the explanation, it's like, well,

01:41:59.800 --> 01:42:01.819
we're not going to explain why the Satanism is

01:42:01.819 --> 01:42:03.760
somehow good. Instead, we're just going to show

01:42:03.760 --> 01:42:05.800
that everything you believe is Satanism. And

01:42:05.800 --> 01:42:08.000
I think that that goes without saying that we

01:42:08.000 --> 01:42:10.859
all understand that like the hippies shouldn't

01:42:10.859 --> 01:42:12.420
kill themselves. You should kill yourself. Stop

01:42:12.420 --> 01:42:14.479
fucking building these, like putting all this

01:42:14.479 --> 01:42:17.500
money into this spectacle. And like, I don't

01:42:17.500 --> 01:42:19.739
know. And Clark is also like, I think what's

01:42:19.739 --> 01:42:21.439
really interesting about him is that like, like,

01:42:21.460 --> 01:42:23.020
like we were saying in the last episode, like.

01:42:23.680 --> 01:42:25.720
In Star Trek, they say space is the final frontier,

01:42:25.859 --> 01:42:27.880
and I think it's, no, science fiction the final

01:42:27.880 --> 01:42:31.119
frontier. Like, Clark is as important to the

01:42:31.119 --> 01:42:33.899
space program, as is Kubrick, like we said. Clark

01:42:33.899 --> 01:42:35.859
is as important to the space program as Von Braun.

01:42:36.060 --> 01:42:38.979
Yeah, yeah. That is, it's, what Von Braun is

01:42:38.979 --> 01:42:42.300
creating is a spectacle for the people. What

01:42:42.300 --> 01:42:44.779
Clark is creating is a spectacle for the nerds.

01:42:44.779 --> 01:42:48.159
Like, it's, they work in, they are achieving

01:42:48.159 --> 01:42:50.899
the same thing. Exactly, yeah. They're going,

01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:52.500
they're trying to do the same thing. They're

01:42:52.500 --> 01:42:54.760
achieving the same thing. They are the same thing.

01:42:54.779 --> 01:42:58.060
A movie about landing on the moon is the same

01:42:58.060 --> 01:43:00.960
thing as landing on the moon. It's selling this

01:43:00.960 --> 01:43:02.779
idea. The difference is how much you sell the

01:43:02.779 --> 01:43:04.800
spectacle that it actually happened. But like,

01:43:04.859 --> 01:43:07.399
other than that, that is the same thing. Sure.

01:43:07.739 --> 01:43:10.140
And that's why I think people get it confused

01:43:10.140 --> 01:43:11.939
with like saying, oh, well, Kubrick's saying

01:43:11.939 --> 01:43:14.319
this was faked or whatever. It's like, no, Kubrick's

01:43:14.319 --> 01:43:15.920
not saying it was faked. Kubrick's saying it's

01:43:15.920 --> 01:43:19.260
fake. You know? Yeah, just like a movie is fake.

01:43:19.260 --> 01:43:21.100
That's some fake -ass shit to give a shit about.

01:43:21.279 --> 01:43:22.960
Like, it's like... No, no, I'm not saying, like,

01:43:22.979 --> 01:43:24.439
it didn't happen. Maybe it happened, but it's

01:43:24.439 --> 01:43:26.380
just like, look at that fake shit. Like, who

01:43:26.380 --> 01:43:28.800
gives a fuck about, like, some random dude in

01:43:28.800 --> 01:43:31.279
a tin can who's pooping in his pants in fucking

01:43:31.279 --> 01:43:35.840
outer space? Like, this is retarded, dude. Like,

01:43:35.859 --> 01:43:38.060
and if it's not retarded, it's actually very

01:43:38.060 --> 01:43:41.760
evil and, like, you know, a bunch of Nazis figuring

01:43:41.760 --> 01:43:43.699
out how to, like, have a more powerful nuclear

01:43:43.699 --> 01:43:46.840
program. But, like... otherwise it's fucking

01:43:46.840 --> 01:43:50.079
retarded like those are the two options it's

01:43:50.079 --> 01:43:53.000
retarded or it's satan yeah and that is what

01:43:53.000 --> 01:43:55.500
2001 posits and i think like we were talking

01:43:55.500 --> 01:43:57.659
earlier about the some of the stuff that rob

01:43:57.659 --> 01:44:01.100
bager really you know talks about with the investment

01:44:02.250 --> 01:44:04.390
and whatnot and we didn't even get into you know

01:44:04.390 --> 01:44:07.329
the ibm investment where just before the release

01:44:07.329 --> 01:44:09.829
of the movie ibm asked that they you know remove

01:44:09.829 --> 01:44:12.090
the ibm references and stuff and they removed

01:44:12.090 --> 01:44:14.489
some of them apparently but there's still i mean

01:44:14.489 --> 01:44:16.170
you really couldn't see them at all back when

01:44:16.170 --> 01:44:19.350
this was on dvd yeah now um but on 4k you can

01:44:19.350 --> 01:44:22.710
see ibm and general electric everywhere and shit

01:44:23.470 --> 01:44:25.289
And by the time, yeah, by the time the movie

01:44:25.289 --> 01:44:26.649
came out and they found out, it's like, oh, it's

01:44:26.649 --> 01:44:30.390
about a glitching IBM computer that's like killing

01:44:30.390 --> 01:44:32.569
people. And like, OK, like, no, we don't want

01:44:32.569 --> 01:44:34.890
our name on this. But you already gave us 10

01:44:34.890 --> 01:44:36.930
million dollars and whatever. And you already

01:44:36.930 --> 01:44:39.949
like, you know. Yeah. And also like H .A .L.

01:44:40.029 --> 01:44:42.810
are the letters before IBM and whatever. Right.

01:44:42.930 --> 01:44:45.229
Right. And people have explained this away because

01:44:45.229 --> 01:44:49.170
Kubrick in a interview said like. Yeah, we never

01:44:49.170 --> 01:44:50.670
think about stuff like that. It would really

01:44:50.670 --> 01:44:53.609
take a code cracker to figure that one out because

01:44:53.609 --> 01:44:56.510
to notice something like that would be so, it's

01:44:56.510 --> 01:44:58.470
so weird and specific. Only a code cracker would

01:44:58.470 --> 01:45:00.710
ever notice it. And it's like, that to me is

01:45:00.710 --> 01:45:04.289
such a sarcastic statement. Like I can't, I can't

01:45:04.289 --> 01:45:07.430
see Kubrick saying like, you mean the letters

01:45:07.430 --> 01:45:11.159
right after IBM or HAL? yeah that would take

01:45:11.159 --> 01:45:13.439
a that's i would never have thought of that only

01:45:13.439 --> 01:45:15.579
a code cracker would think of that he's like

01:45:15.579 --> 01:45:17.319
no if he had never thought of that he'd be like

01:45:17.319 --> 01:45:19.779
oh shit that's crazy like that i should have

01:45:19.779 --> 01:45:21.680
seen that that's great like you know instead

01:45:21.680 --> 01:45:25.680
he's like only a mathematical like phd in this

01:45:25.680 --> 01:45:28.560
could ever figure that out yeah yeah so it's

01:45:28.560 --> 01:45:31.500
like i it's so obviously it was hal after ibm

01:45:31.500 --> 01:45:34.460
like it's not after heuristic algorithmic like

01:45:34.460 --> 01:45:37.600
it's that was a excuse to do hal which is ibm

01:45:37.600 --> 01:45:41.020
yep and i think ibm knew this to a certain extent

01:45:41.020 --> 01:45:42.779
and that's why they removed their names from

01:45:42.779 --> 01:45:45.640
it and removed as many logos as possible but

01:45:45.640 --> 01:45:49.319
you know right before bowman says open the pod

01:45:49.319 --> 01:45:52.779
bay doors it says ibm on his face and then When

01:45:52.779 --> 01:45:54.420
Hal says, I can't do that, it says IBM on his

01:45:54.420 --> 01:45:56.619
face. Like IBM is on his face for most of that

01:45:56.619 --> 01:45:58.760
whole scene where he's just talking to the computer

01:45:58.760 --> 01:46:01.340
and it's just saying like, sorry, I can't do

01:46:01.340 --> 01:46:02.800
that. Sorry, I can't do that. There is a projected

01:46:02.800 --> 01:46:06.260
eye over his eye, a B on his nose and an M over

01:46:06.260 --> 01:46:08.720
his other eye, like through the whole scene.

01:46:09.260 --> 01:46:11.300
If you really want to get into the weeds, there's

01:46:11.300 --> 01:46:14.380
a Hitler mustache under his nose as well. Well,

01:46:14.439 --> 01:46:17.619
I've heard that one, too. I don't really. I don't

01:46:17.619 --> 01:46:20.180
know. I've looked for it. I don't really agree.

01:46:20.460 --> 01:46:22.140
Oh, it's there. That one, it goes all the way

01:46:22.140 --> 01:46:23.939
to one side. It's not just a Hitler mustache.

01:46:24.039 --> 01:46:27.060
It's a wider mustache. It's a perfect blue square

01:46:27.060 --> 01:46:30.340
under his nose and happens twice. Yeah. All right.

01:46:30.399 --> 01:46:33.039
Well, maybe. Whatever. The Nazi IBM connection

01:46:33.039 --> 01:46:34.180
is there. To me, what's more significant is that

01:46:34.180 --> 01:46:36.529
it says. Yeah. I mean, what's more important

01:46:36.529 --> 01:46:38.390
is to me, it says IBM and then it's got this

01:46:38.390 --> 01:46:41.130
target on his head and the computer is just saying,

01:46:41.229 --> 01:46:43.130
like, I'm sorry, I can't do the thing that I'm

01:46:43.130 --> 01:46:47.010
programmed to do for no reason. And I think part

01:46:47.010 --> 01:46:50.069
of the thing that was removed from the movie

01:46:50.069 --> 01:46:54.930
is why Hal does that. And that, I think, is kind

01:46:54.930 --> 01:46:58.029
of the very significant explanation. It's like

01:46:58.029 --> 01:47:01.220
removing the explanation for the Satanism. in

01:47:01.220 --> 01:47:03.699
uh childhood's end would be you know what i mean

01:47:03.699 --> 01:47:07.199
where if you have this thing glitch out and then

01:47:07.199 --> 01:47:09.500
have an explanation for it it's like oh well

01:47:09.500 --> 01:47:11.739
it was human error the humans did this thing

01:47:11.739 --> 01:47:13.640
in the book in the book it says his integrity

01:47:13.640 --> 01:47:15.779
is destroyed by a conflict between truth and

01:47:15.779 --> 01:47:17.920
concealing the truth because he has to hide the

01:47:17.920 --> 01:47:20.800
mission right from the astronauts and that's

01:47:20.800 --> 01:47:22.880
like a that's like a paradoxical contradiction

01:47:22.880 --> 01:47:27.260
in his circuitry right that That's a paradoxical

01:47:27.260 --> 01:47:29.260
contradiction in his circuitry that was introduced

01:47:29.260 --> 01:47:33.840
by humans who gave him contradictory inputs.

01:47:34.119 --> 01:47:37.500
And so it is all attributable to human error

01:47:37.500 --> 01:47:39.840
in the end because that is what Clark believes.

01:47:39.960 --> 01:47:42.920
Clark believes that computers cannot glitch.

01:47:43.220 --> 01:47:45.640
I don't know if he's ever seen a computer before,

01:47:45.800 --> 01:47:50.579
but he has this belief that somehow every single

01:47:50.579 --> 01:47:53.279
time a computer makes a mistake, it's attributable

01:47:53.279 --> 01:47:57.229
to human error, which is, actually true because

01:47:57.229 --> 01:48:00.510
it was an error to make the computer that made

01:48:00.510 --> 01:48:03.430
that glitch however like the point is computers

01:48:03.430 --> 01:48:05.390
fucking glitch like i think that this is what

01:48:05.390 --> 01:48:07.510
like you can there are many different theories

01:48:07.510 --> 01:48:11.170
for why the the how glitches in the movie um

01:48:11.170 --> 01:48:13.369
you can say yeah it's that that contradiction

01:48:13.369 --> 01:48:15.590
you could say that maybe the monolith the aliens

01:48:15.590 --> 01:48:18.939
that control the monolith are creating this as

01:48:18.939 --> 01:48:22.520
a test for Dave Bowman or something, and they're

01:48:22.520 --> 01:48:24.159
controlling Hal's mind or whatever. You could

01:48:24.159 --> 01:48:26.140
also say that he sees the humans as redundant

01:48:26.140 --> 01:48:28.760
components and he alone can complete the mission

01:48:28.760 --> 01:48:31.340
without them and all that stuff. Right. Yeah,

01:48:31.359 --> 01:48:34.119
yeah, yeah. That's like the Tron legacy thing

01:48:34.119 --> 01:48:37.180
where, like, the Jeff Bridges copy is, like,

01:48:37.180 --> 01:48:40.560
I was programmed to just, like, do this job,

01:48:40.699 --> 01:48:42.939
and so I'm going to remove the human element

01:48:42.939 --> 01:48:45.359
because it just gets in the way. Right. And,

01:48:45.460 --> 01:48:47.899
I mean, or you could even say that he... wants

01:48:47.899 --> 01:48:49.500
to remove the human element because he wants

01:48:49.500 --> 01:48:52.279
to be the one that meets the aliens and transcends

01:48:52.279 --> 01:48:54.619
to the next stage of humanity. Sure. Yeah. That

01:48:54.619 --> 01:48:56.800
like, he actually knows what's at stake and that,

01:48:56.880 --> 01:48:58.800
that however, like, I don't think it's any of

01:48:58.800 --> 01:49:00.760
those things. I think that what's awesome about

01:49:00.760 --> 01:49:03.079
removing any of those explanations is that the

01:49:03.079 --> 01:49:04.640
point is you don't need any of those explanations.

01:49:05.239 --> 01:49:07.859
The point is that this is a bad product because

01:49:07.859 --> 01:49:11.579
it was put out by IBM. Yeah, that's like I think

01:49:11.579 --> 01:49:13.340
that's the thing that's awesome about this is

01:49:13.340 --> 01:49:16.279
this movie took IBM's money and made a movie

01:49:16.279 --> 01:49:18.539
about a computer that glitches for no reason.

01:49:19.000 --> 01:49:21.300
And it's awesome. And it's the same with like

01:49:21.300 --> 01:49:25.180
he took GE's money and there's on the microwaves

01:49:25.180 --> 01:49:27.760
when the astronauts cook their food. The first

01:49:27.760 --> 01:49:30.220
thing they do is Bowman grabs the food. He burns

01:49:30.220 --> 01:49:32.180
his hand. He shakes his hand in the air. He's

01:49:32.180 --> 01:49:33.680
like, fuck. And then he takes another one out

01:49:33.680 --> 01:49:35.279
quickly and another one out quickly because he's

01:49:35.279 --> 01:49:38.020
burning his fingers. You you see the physical

01:49:38.020 --> 01:49:41.750
pain. that the GE microwave is causing to the

01:49:41.750 --> 01:49:45.770
consumer in that shot. And this was like advertising

01:49:45.770 --> 01:49:48.850
in like advertising psychology was like new at

01:49:48.850 --> 01:49:50.609
this time. And like psychology and advertising

01:49:50.609 --> 01:49:52.529
was like, I mean, it had been around since the,

01:49:52.590 --> 01:49:57.289
you know, thirties, whatever, but it was still

01:49:57.289 --> 01:49:59.670
something that not everybody understood, like

01:49:59.670 --> 01:50:03.289
in a, like just like totally key way. So I think

01:50:03.289 --> 01:50:05.130
that you could say like, Oh, we're putting your

01:50:05.130 --> 01:50:07.800
stuff in outer space. That means that you're

01:50:07.800 --> 01:50:08.979
going to be the type of company that survives

01:50:08.979 --> 01:50:10.760
for 50 years. Isn't that great? That's like we're

01:50:10.760 --> 01:50:12.060
showing that your company is great. And they're

01:50:12.060 --> 01:50:14.020
like, yeah, and that's enough explanation. Like

01:50:14.020 --> 01:50:15.399
they're not like, OK, well, we're going to have

01:50:15.399 --> 01:50:17.079
our consultant come in and make sure that our

01:50:17.079 --> 01:50:19.579
product is only associated with the right associations

01:50:19.579 --> 01:50:22.079
so that like you can't put this in if you're

01:50:22.079 --> 01:50:24.229
going to have somebody being raped. in front

01:50:24.229 --> 01:50:25.890
of it. You can't put this in if you're like,

01:50:25.970 --> 01:50:27.069
you know what I mean? There are certain things,

01:50:27.109 --> 01:50:28.729
if you're going to use a Coca -Cola product,

01:50:28.729 --> 01:50:30.970
you're not going to have a Coca -Cola product

01:50:30.970 --> 01:50:34.090
with a rapist raping a child and drinking Coca

01:50:34.090 --> 01:50:36.090
-Cola. Like it's not, you can't do this. That's

01:50:36.090 --> 01:50:38.010
a pretty extreme example. At this time, advertising

01:50:38.010 --> 01:50:41.609
was, yeah, no, I know. But specifically like,

01:50:42.090 --> 01:50:44.310
The worst thing you could ever do in advertising

01:50:44.310 --> 01:50:48.630
would be to recreate a physically painful experience

01:50:48.630 --> 01:50:51.850
that all of your consumers have with your product.

01:50:52.069 --> 01:50:55.649
And that is what he does with the GE microwaves.

01:50:55.649 --> 01:50:58.729
That is the most powerful thing. That sounds

01:50:58.729 --> 01:51:01.710
very connected to Clockwork Orange and the operant

01:51:01.710 --> 01:51:03.970
conditioning they're trying to do to him. Of

01:51:03.970 --> 01:51:07.550
course. The unexpected. result of it and the

01:51:07.550 --> 01:51:09.449
connections that get made between the music and

01:51:09.449 --> 01:51:11.449
his pain and all that instead of the images and

01:51:11.449 --> 01:51:14.289
whatever totally totally and I think that's something

01:51:14.289 --> 01:51:17.170
that Kubrick was interested in earlier than other

01:51:17.170 --> 01:51:20.369
people yeah in 2001 really capitalized on the

01:51:20.369 --> 01:51:23.189
ability to do that sort of subliminal advertising

01:51:23.189 --> 01:51:29.109
stuff without people kind of picking up on what

01:51:29.109 --> 01:51:32.270
he was doing And I think he was doing it in the

01:51:32.270 --> 01:51:34.750
exact opposite direction. I mean, you see a Howard

01:51:34.750 --> 01:51:37.729
Johnson's on the on the totally empty space station.

01:51:37.729 --> 01:51:41.050
You see all of these like the. The Pan Am flight

01:51:41.050 --> 01:51:43.170
is like, look at how much fucking fuel they're

01:51:43.170 --> 01:51:47.250
wasting to fly one asshole to the moon. You're

01:51:47.250 --> 01:51:49.229
not seeing any of this stuff helping anybody.

01:51:49.329 --> 01:51:51.369
You see a bunch of really expensive bullshit

01:51:51.369 --> 01:51:56.630
doing nothing. And then you see the IBM computer

01:51:56.630 --> 01:52:00.050
just kill everybody. All of the GE microwaves

01:52:00.050 --> 01:52:04.369
hurt them. Everything is bad. Nobody who funded

01:52:04.369 --> 01:52:07.310
this movie is portrayed in a good way at all

01:52:07.310 --> 01:52:11.970
in a... subliminal advertising sort of way. It's

01:52:11.970 --> 01:52:14.390
like everything is the opposite of what they

01:52:14.390 --> 01:52:17.369
want on purpose. Like, and it's the same with

01:52:17.369 --> 01:52:19.489
what he's doing with Arthur C. Clarke's ideas.

01:52:19.710 --> 01:52:21.609
It's like, well, I'm gonna depict exactly the

01:52:21.609 --> 01:52:25.310
book that we talked about, but like, it's just

01:52:25.310 --> 01:52:27.350
gonna show how fucking retarded you are and how

01:52:27.350 --> 01:52:29.989
evil everything that you believe is and how you

01:52:29.989 --> 01:52:32.449
are a piece of garbage. Like, you know what I

01:52:32.449 --> 01:52:34.670
mean? Yeah, yeah. That you and the Nazis are

01:52:34.670 --> 01:52:37.949
the same and you are, there's a great Rob Ager

01:52:37.949 --> 01:52:43.579
theory that, that uh how is clark and kubrick

01:52:43.579 --> 01:52:46.199
like maybe maybe how is kubrick and i don't know

01:52:46.199 --> 01:52:48.119
there's some there's something about the the

01:52:48.119 --> 01:52:51.100
chess game between clark and kubrick and whatnot

01:52:51.100 --> 01:52:54.380
we've brought this up in previous episodes too

01:52:54.380 --> 01:52:56.739
plenty of times and now we're finally here to

01:52:56.739 --> 01:52:59.739
like talk about 2001 and make the treatise of

01:52:59.739 --> 01:53:03.020
why we've like applied this mindset to other

01:53:04.109 --> 01:53:06.710
that we've done, but like what Spielberg is doing

01:53:06.710 --> 01:53:08.710
in Ready Player One against Ernest Cline or whatever,

01:53:08.890 --> 01:53:12.050
the chess match that is kind of continuously

01:53:12.050 --> 01:53:14.329
happening between Kubrick and the authors he

01:53:14.329 --> 01:53:19.529
adapts. Right. I think I recently rewatched Lolita

01:53:19.529 --> 01:53:24.189
and Strangelove. And those projects are projects

01:53:24.189 --> 01:53:27.069
where he's collaborating with somebody that I

01:53:27.069 --> 01:53:31.390
believe he respects. I think that in Lolita,

01:53:32.000 --> 01:53:35.340
And Nabokov was on the same page with Kubrick

01:53:35.340 --> 01:53:37.939
where they were like, how can we pull this trick

01:53:37.939 --> 01:53:40.880
on the censors? And like, how can we make this

01:53:40.880 --> 01:53:43.619
even more edgy than the book in certain ways

01:53:43.619 --> 01:53:46.239
without like, you know what I mean? How can we

01:53:46.239 --> 01:53:49.189
say like. How can we put this in the movie and

01:53:49.189 --> 01:53:51.149
then look at the censors and say, oh, yeah, what's

01:53:51.149 --> 01:53:53.229
perverse about that? Why don't you tell me what's

01:53:53.229 --> 01:53:55.130
perverse? Why does that turn you on? Like, oh,

01:53:55.170 --> 01:53:56.810
okay, it's fine. Okay, I thought it was fine.

01:53:56.909 --> 01:53:59.729
Okay, good. You know what I mean? Lolita is so

01:53:59.729 --> 01:54:02.890
much like him working against somebody, but he

01:54:02.890 --> 01:54:06.689
is on the side of his co -author, I believe.

01:54:07.130 --> 01:54:09.550
And I think same with Strangelove, where Strangelove

01:54:09.550 --> 01:54:13.010
is a really brilliant piece of the darkest fucking

01:54:13.010 --> 01:54:16.050
satire ever. But I think Terry, what's his name?

01:54:16.989 --> 01:54:18.569
What's his name? He wrote blue movie, Terry Southern,

01:54:18.649 --> 01:54:20.529
like who wrote it with him and stuff. Like, I

01:54:20.529 --> 01:54:22.869
think that's a guy that Kubrick respected. Um,

01:54:22.890 --> 01:54:26.729
I think that he's not working against these people.

01:54:26.810 --> 01:54:30.649
However, 2001 is a project that I think it's

01:54:30.649 --> 01:54:34.050
very clearly like Arthur C. Clark is a guy who

01:54:34.050 --> 01:54:38.470
is the opposing ideology to everything that Kubrick

01:54:38.470 --> 01:54:42.729
stated in strange love. he literally like found

01:54:42.729 --> 01:54:46.630
the arch nemesis of the guy working in the sphere

01:54:46.630 --> 01:54:48.789
of human consciousness, creating this fantasy

01:54:48.789 --> 01:54:53.250
of futurism. And he took him and then did the

01:54:53.250 --> 01:54:55.850
subliminal advertising thing against him too.

01:54:55.989 --> 01:54:58.409
And just took all of the wind out of all of his

01:54:58.409 --> 01:55:02.210
ideas in the most brutal way. And that I think

01:55:02.210 --> 01:55:04.350
was something that slowly built over the course

01:55:04.350 --> 01:55:06.390
of those three movies of him having to deal with,

01:55:06.449 --> 01:55:13.720
you know, the, the satire and the, and not saying

01:55:13.720 --> 01:55:16.460
what you're actually saying and dealing with

01:55:16.460 --> 01:55:20.180
higher -ups that you're, I don't know, supposedly

01:55:20.180 --> 01:55:21.960
collaborating. I mean, when you were dealing

01:55:21.960 --> 01:55:23.760
with censors on Lolita, you're collaborating

01:55:23.760 --> 01:55:26.079
with them. He was disparagingly calling him Superman

01:55:26.079 --> 01:55:30.180
behind his back, right? Yeah, yeah. Apparently,

01:55:30.180 --> 01:55:34.359
he referred to Clark as Superman to his family

01:55:34.359 --> 01:55:39.760
and stuff. Now, I don't know. The point is, yeah,

01:55:39.800 --> 01:55:42.180
I think I think there is a certain irony to the

01:55:42.180 --> 01:55:46.720
way that that Kubrick dealt with Clark in his

01:55:46.720 --> 01:55:48.979
personal life and stuff. And that like, you know,

01:55:48.979 --> 01:55:52.619
referring to him as Superman, like this nerdy

01:55:52.619 --> 01:55:57.319
little weird guy is very inherently ironic. Yeah,

01:55:57.380 --> 01:56:00.939
exactly. Especially because the Superman is then

01:56:00.939 --> 01:56:03.699
is like the Ubermensch. It's the Nietzschean

01:56:03.699 --> 01:56:06.810
concepts. right right like oh yeah look at this

01:56:06.810 --> 01:56:08.569
the man of the future man of the future here

01:56:08.569 --> 01:56:12.050
yeah yeah yeah big superman here yeah superman

01:56:12.050 --> 01:56:15.489
coming today special little super boy like you

01:56:15.489 --> 01:56:18.250
know oh yeah he's dealing with a weird autist

01:56:18.250 --> 01:56:20.310
who's like yeah yeah superman's coming over all

01:56:20.310 --> 01:56:22.989
right yeah and there's definitely like uh there's

01:56:22.989 --> 01:56:26.189
definitely a nichian way of framing 2001 as well

01:56:26.189 --> 01:56:29.930
and like the the progression of an ape towards

01:56:29.930 --> 01:56:32.810
a star child as being like an ubermanshian journey

01:56:32.810 --> 01:56:37.149
or whatever yeah yeah of course of course but

01:56:37.149 --> 01:56:39.590
i think that i think that clark sees that as

01:56:39.590 --> 01:56:42.689
something that comes through technology whereas

01:56:42.689 --> 01:56:45.310
in the movie technology has to be like literally

01:56:45.310 --> 01:56:48.250
defeated and left behind in order to move forward

01:56:48.250 --> 01:56:52.229
right right i mean i guess that's true of the

01:56:52.229 --> 01:56:57.069
book too uh it is it is but it's it's like a

01:56:57.069 --> 01:57:00.170
i don't know It's a stepping stone towards this

01:57:00.170 --> 01:57:03.069
thing that is Satan. Like as opposed to in the

01:57:03.069 --> 01:57:08.029
movie, it seems to be like the star child. It

01:57:08.029 --> 01:57:10.229
seems to me to be almost a return. You know what

01:57:10.229 --> 01:57:12.710
I mean? So it was, I don't remember how long,

01:57:12.729 --> 01:57:14.789
but it wasn't for many, many years until I kind

01:57:14.789 --> 01:57:17.489
of really felt like I understood the ending of

01:57:17.489 --> 01:57:20.310
2001 where he's in the room and he points at

01:57:20.310 --> 01:57:22.899
the monolith. Yeah. so you know in the book there's

01:57:22.899 --> 01:57:24.640
just like the explanation that you know yeah

01:57:24.640 --> 01:57:26.640
well he's in a zoo where the aliens are watching

01:57:26.640 --> 01:57:28.020
him they're giving him all the food that he wants

01:57:28.020 --> 01:57:29.800
and they're letting him watch tv or whatever

01:57:29.800 --> 01:57:31.539
like i don't know yeah the trough amadorians

01:57:31.539 --> 01:57:35.060
it's just like he passes his life in the realm

01:57:35.060 --> 01:57:39.279
of the platonic ideal of technology that's like

01:57:39.279 --> 01:57:42.439
that to me is what that room is is it's not it's

01:57:42.439 --> 01:57:48.239
not like super gadgety and and futuristic or

01:57:48.239 --> 01:57:52.020
whatever um but it is the platonic ideal where

01:57:52.020 --> 01:57:55.220
you know yeah sure the space station is far more

01:57:55.220 --> 01:57:57.020
futuristic but there's nowhere to take a nice

01:57:57.020 --> 01:58:00.779
big bath like you know what i mean like the room

01:58:00.779 --> 01:58:03.739
that he ends up in in the end is the most ideal

01:58:03.739 --> 01:58:06.680
room with the greatest bathroom and the beautiful

01:58:06.680 --> 01:58:10.460
art and the like it's just this sort of Tremendous,

01:58:10.460 --> 01:58:13.960
you know, Baroque Renaissance sort of. I don't

01:58:13.960 --> 01:58:15.939
even know. It's some sort of futuristic combination

01:58:15.939 --> 01:58:19.619
of all sorts of eras. I mean, I feel like in

01:58:19.619 --> 01:58:22.060
the movie, it's a lot more weird and alien than

01:58:22.060 --> 01:58:23.979
it's described in the book. In the book, he describes

01:58:23.979 --> 01:58:26.979
it as basically being like the exact replica

01:58:26.979 --> 01:58:30.739
of a hotel room. Yeah, but that's not. But but

01:58:30.739 --> 01:58:35.869
see, this is to me. The idea is that this is

01:58:35.869 --> 01:58:38.670
the realm of the platonic ideal that first occurred

01:58:38.670 --> 01:58:41.729
to that ape when he saw smoothness. Or maybe

01:58:41.729 --> 01:58:43.729
the full thing didn't occur to him, but like

01:58:43.729 --> 01:58:46.770
the opening of that realm occurred to him. Where

01:58:46.770 --> 01:58:49.350
you could live in a place where all needs were

01:58:49.350 --> 01:58:52.090
provided for and all of your, everything was

01:58:52.090 --> 01:58:54.069
satiated and everything, like you had no want

01:58:54.069 --> 01:58:56.250
and no desire and no anything. That perfect world

01:58:56.250 --> 01:58:59.050
that our children will inhabit. A brave new world.

01:58:59.189 --> 01:59:02.600
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. world of technology

01:59:02.600 --> 01:59:07.199
but that that basically you know perfect technology

01:59:07.199 --> 01:59:10.079
would not be ugly and and would not have big

01:59:10.079 --> 01:59:12.100
tv screens all over the place whatever perfect

01:59:12.100 --> 01:59:15.399
technology would have space and there'd be the

01:59:15.399 --> 01:59:17.319
perfect little table with the perfect little

01:59:17.319 --> 01:59:20.000
meal and the nice little wine glass and the like

01:59:20.000 --> 01:59:22.720
the floor lighting that's bright but not too

01:59:22.720 --> 01:59:24.840
bright and like you know what i mean everything's

01:59:24.840 --> 01:59:26.899
just like there's no harsh lighting there's no

01:59:26.899 --> 01:59:29.560
it's just everything is soft and everything is

01:59:30.710 --> 01:59:34.210
ideal in the most soulless way I mean what he

01:59:34.210 --> 01:59:37.069
realizes is there's no sort of conflict there's

01:59:37.069 --> 01:59:39.010
no anything like what is it that we've been reaching

01:59:39.010 --> 01:59:42.869
towards is this and now he's here and what is

01:59:42.869 --> 01:59:46.470
there you know yeah and like you might as well

01:59:46.470 --> 01:59:48.729
you might as well pass through your entire life

01:59:48.729 --> 01:59:51.869
that's like why he just gets old and just passes

01:59:51.869 --> 01:59:53.550
through his whole life because like yeah that's

01:59:53.550 --> 01:59:55.369
it that's all there is because he's living with

01:59:55.369 --> 01:59:57.729
technology nothing changes he's got he's got

01:59:57.729 --> 02:00:02.489
he's got his you know, Netflix and his Uber Eats.

02:00:03.310 --> 02:00:05.350
Every day is the same. He is living in the year

02:00:05.350 --> 02:00:11.850
2025, I guess, you know, 2001. But I think that

02:00:11.850 --> 02:00:15.569
in the end, when he points at the monolith, I

02:00:15.569 --> 02:00:18.189
mean, well, I guess when he cracks the glass,

02:00:18.210 --> 02:00:20.369
you see the entropy of this. You see the introduction

02:00:20.369 --> 02:00:23.850
of, like, this doesn't exist aside from time.

02:00:23.890 --> 02:00:28.340
Time still exists. And so, like, this... Thing

02:00:28.340 --> 02:00:30.460
that you have achieved is still temporary. What

02:00:30.460 --> 02:00:32.520
are you like? You're not working towards anything.

02:00:32.680 --> 02:00:34.439
You're not doing anything. Yeah, you might as

02:00:34.439 --> 02:00:37.819
well just pass your whole life and break and

02:00:37.819 --> 02:00:39.680
die and whatever and then in the end when he's

02:00:39.680 --> 02:00:41.319
actually dying he points in the monolith and

02:00:41.319 --> 02:00:44.720
he realizes like To me what I feel he realizes

02:00:44.720 --> 02:00:46.779
like oh, it's been you all along This has been

02:00:46.779 --> 02:00:49.220
the thing that I've been fighting against all

02:00:49.220 --> 02:00:54.560
along. It wasn't it wasn't Heywood Floyd. It

02:00:54.560 --> 02:00:56.600
wasn't Hal. It wasn't Heywood Floyd. It wasn't

02:00:56.600 --> 02:00:58.000
any of these things that I've been fighting this

02:00:58.000 --> 02:01:01.060
whole movie or whatever. The real thing has been

02:01:01.060 --> 02:01:04.979
the monolith has been technology, which is everything.

02:01:05.300 --> 02:01:07.819
You know what I mean? Yeah. I think, I think

02:01:07.819 --> 02:01:09.600
what's interesting is also like by the, by the

02:01:09.600 --> 02:01:13.319
end, once, once Hal doesn't open the pod bay

02:01:13.319 --> 02:01:16.739
doors, every time I see Bowman after that, he

02:01:16.739 --> 02:01:19.560
looks a lot more ape like. to me i don't know

02:01:19.560 --> 02:01:21.720
if he's like doing a face or something but like

02:01:21.720 --> 02:01:23.739
his face looks a lot more like he's got more

02:01:23.739 --> 02:01:26.819
of a forehead going on and he kind of reminds

02:01:26.819 --> 02:01:28.979
me like of the man apes at the beginning and

02:01:28.979 --> 02:01:32.199
i think that part of the thing is like what happens

02:01:32.199 --> 02:01:33.800
in the second part of the movie is what happens

02:01:33.800 --> 02:01:35.300
in the third part of the movie again is like

02:01:35.300 --> 02:01:37.640
you can live in this convenience in this in this

02:01:37.640 --> 02:01:42.180
sort of womb and not be a human not exist not

02:01:42.180 --> 02:01:45.689
not be asleep essentially Um, but as soon as

02:01:45.689 --> 02:01:49.109
that thing happens, then, then you have to awaken

02:01:49.109 --> 02:01:51.470
that animal that's inside you. That is the thing

02:01:51.470 --> 02:01:53.409
that's alive. That's the only thing that's alive.

02:01:53.810 --> 02:01:58.430
Um, is conflict. The needing to deal with conflict,

02:01:58.489 --> 02:02:01.250
the need to survive. That is, that is when this

02:02:01.250 --> 02:02:03.909
character becomes alive. And then he goes back

02:02:03.909 --> 02:02:06.350
to the room and then he's like, I guess I finished

02:02:06.350 --> 02:02:07.789
it and whatever. And it's like, no, dude, you're

02:02:07.789 --> 02:02:12.130
still, the point is you've eliminated. being

02:02:12.130 --> 02:02:14.649
alive. Well, I also think there is a difference

02:02:14.649 --> 02:02:16.789
between the early stages of technology and the

02:02:16.789 --> 02:02:18.890
late stages. I feel like we're in this like late

02:02:18.890 --> 02:02:20.789
stage thing, which is what the movie kind of

02:02:20.789 --> 02:02:23.090
predicted. I think when the ape picks up the

02:02:23.090 --> 02:02:25.850
bone and uses it as a tool, that actually does

02:02:25.850 --> 02:02:27.810
give that ape more control over its environment.

02:02:28.319 --> 02:02:30.100
You know, it does allow it to have the one up

02:02:30.100 --> 02:02:32.819
on the other tribe. It's not necessarily something

02:02:32.819 --> 02:02:36.500
that has enslaved the ape yet or whatever. And

02:02:36.500 --> 02:02:38.500
like, even when you talk about... No, it makes

02:02:38.500 --> 02:02:41.479
the ape a killer of his own. No, sure. It changes

02:02:41.479 --> 02:02:44.020
the ape into a cannibal. It changes the ape into

02:02:44.020 --> 02:02:47.060
something inhuman. It takes away the ability

02:02:47.060 --> 02:02:49.520
for the ape to sit next to the tapers. It takes

02:02:49.520 --> 02:02:53.539
away a lot is lost. And what it's going towards...

02:02:53.539 --> 02:02:56.079
It certainly does all that. But it also makes

02:02:56.079 --> 02:02:59.409
the ape like... It's the difference between the

02:02:59.409 --> 02:03:05.250
pilots and the astronauts, man. The pilots are

02:03:05.250 --> 02:03:08.890
using a piece of technology to have control over

02:03:08.890 --> 02:03:12.390
their ability to fly up into the atmosphere and

02:03:12.390 --> 02:03:15.449
whatever. They still have control over that thing.

02:03:15.750 --> 02:03:19.050
It doesn't have complete control over them. And

02:03:19.050 --> 02:03:20.510
yeah, there's something that's lost and those

02:03:20.510 --> 02:03:22.649
planes are used in war and killing their own

02:03:22.649 --> 02:03:25.180
kind and that's still just... an extension of

02:03:25.180 --> 02:03:27.720
the bone. But I do think there is some switch

02:03:27.720 --> 02:03:30.739
that's happening there, some transition into

02:03:30.739 --> 02:03:32.739
a later stage where the human becomes a redundant

02:03:32.739 --> 02:03:37.279
component and becomes fully enslaved by the technology

02:03:37.279 --> 02:03:41.600
and has no more control over it. I mean, Bowman

02:03:41.600 --> 02:03:44.600
turning Hal off is like a final revolutionary

02:03:44.600 --> 02:03:47.880
act against the thing that has enslaved him.

02:03:48.739 --> 02:03:54.199
Totally. I think like... Like you said, yes,

02:03:54.460 --> 02:03:57.119
the bone takes something away, just like the

02:03:57.119 --> 02:04:02.399
pilots. The right stuff doesn't really make the

02:04:02.399 --> 02:04:05.800
point that the pilots are already enslaved by

02:04:05.800 --> 02:04:08.319
the technology. It makes the point that they're

02:04:08.319 --> 02:04:11.340
in control of it still, that they have agency,

02:04:11.500 --> 02:04:14.520
and that they chose to be there. They chose to

02:04:14.520 --> 02:04:16.619
be of service. They chose to fly these things.

02:04:16.840 --> 02:04:19.260
They had to be a very specific kind of person

02:04:19.260 --> 02:04:23.600
to do this. a very rare kind of human being.

02:04:24.140 --> 02:04:26.399
And then that's the breed that dies out once

02:04:26.399 --> 02:04:28.260
automation completely takes over. And there's

02:04:28.260 --> 02:04:33.260
no reason for human input anymore. This is the

02:04:33.260 --> 02:04:36.779
conflict of the second part of the movie. And

02:04:36.779 --> 02:04:39.920
I think that in the end, we see just like, which

02:04:39.920 --> 02:04:44.479
one was it? Which astronaut was it who you said

02:04:44.479 --> 02:04:48.149
his, was it? It was Gordon Cooper. It was Cooper,

02:04:48.289 --> 02:04:50.510
right? Who you said had the problem where he

02:04:50.510 --> 02:04:53.529
had to actually fly actually manual and he actually

02:04:53.529 --> 02:04:56.109
landed and he figured it out after all the technology

02:04:56.109 --> 02:04:59.989
failed. Like that's, yeah, he was still, there

02:04:59.989 --> 02:05:02.090
was still an ape in there. There was still a

02:05:02.090 --> 02:05:05.350
man in there who like could take the reins and

02:05:05.350 --> 02:05:07.489
land this thing or whatever, just like Bowman.

02:05:08.029 --> 02:05:10.390
Bowman, he's out there with no fucking helmet

02:05:10.390 --> 02:05:13.710
because he, you know, didn't think about it,

02:05:13.750 --> 02:05:16.750
I guess. still just didn't think that Hal was

02:05:16.750 --> 02:05:19.609
deliberately murdering Frank and shit you know

02:05:19.609 --> 02:05:24.189
like yeah yeah yeah but he then you know figures

02:05:24.189 --> 02:05:27.090
out how to play not by the rules like I mean

02:05:27.090 --> 02:05:29.609
Hal has to play by the rules there's there's

02:05:29.609 --> 02:05:33.970
no Hal can you know take all of the air out of

02:05:33.970 --> 02:05:36.909
the whole plane spaceship and he can you know

02:05:36.909 --> 02:05:39.390
turn off the anti -gravity drives if he wants

02:05:39.390 --> 02:05:43.659
to or whatever but like he can't just like break

02:05:43.659 --> 02:05:46.239
any of the like he's limited whereas I guess

02:05:46.239 --> 02:05:48.060
you could say that's breaking the rules because

02:05:48.060 --> 02:05:49.960
he's not really supposed to kill the astronauts

02:05:49.960 --> 02:05:52.800
but like he's doing well sure but I just mean

02:05:52.800 --> 02:05:54.939
he's doing that in service of the mission ultimately

02:05:54.939 --> 02:05:57.960
like which is in hit but Bowman Bowman is doing

02:05:57.960 --> 02:05:59.920
something messy is like what I'm saying like

02:05:59.920 --> 02:06:01.760
he's not plugging something into something else

02:06:01.760 --> 02:06:04.279
he's not pushing the button that does the thing

02:06:04.279 --> 02:06:07.699
he's blasting the thing and going through an

02:06:07.699 --> 02:06:12.039
airlock and like choosing to like he's fighting

02:06:12.039 --> 02:06:15.300
like you know what i mean he he's achieving a

02:06:15.300 --> 02:06:21.739
physical feat that gets around the set rules

02:06:21.739 --> 02:06:25.739
of the chess game you know what i mean like the

02:06:25.739 --> 02:06:28.060
chess if we're playing a chess game then like

02:06:28.060 --> 02:06:30.539
hal wins because he is in control of the whole

02:06:30.539 --> 02:06:33.039
board but like this human doesn't have to play

02:06:33.039 --> 02:06:35.000
he can flip a chess board he can he can fucking

02:06:35.000 --> 02:06:37.260
he can say fuck this i guess that was a detail

02:06:37.260 --> 02:06:40.199
i guess that was a detail yeah I forgot to mention,

02:06:40.380 --> 02:06:44.020
but Hal didn't really win that chess match. He

02:06:44.020 --> 02:06:48.300
just propagandized to Dave that he won it or

02:06:48.300 --> 02:06:51.979
whatever. He told, I think it was Frank, but

02:06:51.979 --> 02:06:54.079
he told, wasn't it Frank Poole? I think it's

02:06:54.079 --> 02:06:56.899
Dave that's playing chess with him. It doesn't

02:06:56.899 --> 02:07:00.319
matter. It's one of them, but either way, yeah.

02:07:00.600 --> 02:07:03.359
He didn't really have checkmate. He says what

02:07:03.359 --> 02:07:06.869
Dave. I think it's Frank. But he says what Frank's

02:07:06.869 --> 02:07:08.369
next move is going to be. He's like, well, you're

02:07:08.369 --> 02:07:10.289
going to do this, and then I'm going to get checkmate.

02:07:10.470 --> 02:07:14.250
So that's it. And it's like, turns out he could

02:07:14.250 --> 02:07:18.069
have made a different move. Exactly. Hal says,

02:07:18.409 --> 02:07:20.069
oh, well, your next move is this, and then my

02:07:20.069 --> 02:07:21.689
next move is this, so that's checkmate. And it's

02:07:21.689 --> 02:07:23.789
like, well, he had two options there, and of

02:07:23.789 --> 02:07:25.930
the two options, that was the wrong one. And

02:07:25.930 --> 02:07:29.119
you... implied to him that he needed to make

02:07:29.119 --> 02:07:31.159
that and he didn't double check it because he's

02:07:31.159 --> 02:07:32.800
not double checking anything or thinking for

02:07:32.800 --> 02:07:34.500
himself because all he's doing is plugging it

02:07:34.500 --> 02:07:36.720
in and asking another computer if that is how

02:07:36.720 --> 02:07:39.640
it works. He would never know if it was malfunctioning.

02:07:39.819 --> 02:07:43.300
This is one of the number one things, I think,

02:07:43.319 --> 02:07:47.659
is when we're talking about the AI versus human

02:07:47.659 --> 02:07:54.319
thing today. Just like AI writing of sitcoms

02:07:54.319 --> 02:07:58.090
or AI art or whatever. The reason that this AI

02:07:58.090 --> 02:08:01.609
stuff is impressive to people is because actual

02:08:01.609 --> 02:08:06.689
I, actual intelligence, has been so devalued.

02:08:07.289 --> 02:08:10.390
Diminished. Divalued. It's diminished, yeah.

02:08:11.189 --> 02:08:14.810
Essentially, it's not competing with actual intelligence

02:08:14.810 --> 02:08:18.069
anymore. It's competing with people who were

02:08:18.069 --> 02:08:22.869
raised by the internet. So it's basically like...

02:08:23.119 --> 02:08:25.000
A bunch of artificial intelligence thing that

02:08:25.000 --> 02:08:27.159
was raised on the Internet versus like a bunch

02:08:27.159 --> 02:08:29.100
of actual intelligence things that are raised

02:08:29.100 --> 02:08:33.000
through AI programs. So like they're not really

02:08:33.000 --> 02:08:35.319
it's not competing with the same fucking thing.

02:08:35.399 --> 02:08:37.039
You've diminished the thing. It's not you've

02:08:37.039 --> 02:08:41.180
moved the goalposts. Yeah, we've deferred to

02:08:41.180 --> 02:08:44.079
technology for so long that like it is like childhood's

02:08:44.079 --> 02:08:45.960
end. We've been born and raised in the age of

02:08:45.960 --> 02:08:49.770
Corellon. The demon. Yeah, exactly. Like nobody

02:08:49.770 --> 02:08:53.090
now can be a Jimi Hendrix or a John Lennon or

02:08:53.090 --> 02:08:54.729
an Albert Einstein or whatever. And this was

02:08:54.729 --> 02:08:57.270
true by the year 2001. Like this was true by

02:08:57.270 --> 02:08:59.470
the year 2001, by the time the internet was popping

02:08:59.470 --> 02:09:00.970
up and people were on chat rooms or whatever.

02:09:01.069 --> 02:09:04.109
Like this was all, that was the 33 years later

02:09:04.109 --> 02:09:08.689
that a generation needed to be raised with the

02:09:08.689 --> 02:09:11.770
ideas of this futurism and these astronauts and

02:09:11.770 --> 02:09:13.869
this technology and whatever to buy into that

02:09:13.869 --> 02:09:16.930
and then get the internet and then... basically

02:09:16.930 --> 02:09:19.649
lose all humanity and then when the internet

02:09:19.649 --> 02:09:22.170
has ai programs that are doing better than them

02:09:22.170 --> 02:09:24.189
at humanity it's like well yeah because you fucking

02:09:24.189 --> 02:09:29.890
these are all like autistic people you can compete

02:09:29.890 --> 02:09:32.750
you can do better like at like a computer can

02:09:32.750 --> 02:09:35.329
do a lot better than rain man at counting all

02:09:35.329 --> 02:09:38.789
of those uh uh toothpicks you know what i mean

02:09:38.789 --> 02:09:42.170
that's true but like we're not that's not what

02:09:42.170 --> 02:09:45.880
intelligence was before the year 2001 like you

02:09:45.880 --> 02:09:47.979
know what i mean in in the 80s that was a weird

02:09:47.979 --> 02:09:50.560
psychological disorder nowadays that's just a

02:09:50.560 --> 02:09:52.380
great coder who's going to be very successful

02:09:52.380 --> 02:09:55.920
but or a perfect astronaut until he's replaced

02:09:55.920 --> 02:10:00.640
by a computer yeah yeah so so we're all like

02:10:00.640 --> 02:10:03.180
we're all we're all dave bowman's existing in

02:10:03.180 --> 02:10:05.760
that room at the end and our lives might as well

02:10:05.760 --> 02:10:09.680
just fast forward you know yeah basically i mean

02:10:10.220 --> 02:10:12.520
I mean, at least in the first world or whatever.

02:10:12.520 --> 02:10:14.720
I think right now we're all Frank Poole doing

02:10:14.720 --> 02:10:17.819
that chess game where, you know, the computer

02:10:17.819 --> 02:10:19.319
is telling us, like, oh, yeah, so your next move

02:10:19.319 --> 02:10:21.720
is this and then it's this, so checkmate. It's

02:10:21.720 --> 02:10:23.579
going to be the singularity or something. It's

02:10:23.579 --> 02:10:25.640
like, dude, why are we buying into what this

02:10:25.640 --> 02:10:27.720
computer is telling us the future is? Like, what

02:10:27.720 --> 02:10:31.060
are we talking about here? Like, nobody's checking.

02:10:31.199 --> 02:10:34.300
Nobody's doing their own, like, analysis of anything.

02:10:34.500 --> 02:10:37.020
And so, like, the computer outputs that are telling

02:10:37.020 --> 02:10:39.949
us that... transhumanism is the way of the future

02:10:39.949 --> 02:10:43.029
is just like, that's taking over to the people

02:10:43.029 --> 02:10:46.050
who have most of the power and the money and

02:10:46.050 --> 02:10:49.029
the, you know, Twitter and the whatever. These

02:10:49.029 --> 02:10:51.329
are, you know, weird, evil people who are running

02:10:51.329 --> 02:10:54.930
the whole. No, sure. Conversation. I mean, it's,

02:10:54.930 --> 02:10:58.510
it's, it's actually kind of gone to a comical

02:10:58.510 --> 02:11:01.369
degree. I feel like there is an underlying, like

02:11:01.369 --> 02:11:04.289
discomfort about it though. I think like, I I'd

02:11:04.289 --> 02:11:06.609
like to give people more credit. We didn't ask

02:11:06.609 --> 02:11:09.050
for this. This stuff just happens to us. And

02:11:09.050 --> 02:11:11.390
I think in a grand societal sense, like, yeah,

02:11:11.470 --> 02:11:14.170
eventually people just have to accept it. It's

02:11:14.170 --> 02:11:16.430
like there's no one around today that's agonizing

02:11:16.430 --> 02:11:20.229
anymore about like cars being around. But like

02:11:20.229 --> 02:11:22.829
the people back when the car was first being

02:11:22.829 --> 02:11:24.930
created who were agonizing about what that would

02:11:24.930 --> 02:11:27.369
do to us, they were right. And eventually they

02:11:27.369 --> 02:11:29.689
just kind of died out. They're right every time.

02:11:29.810 --> 02:11:32.310
The people who are like, dude, the telephone,

02:11:32.489 --> 02:11:35.039
fuck this. Like every time they're right, but

02:11:35.039 --> 02:11:37.579
it eventually just takes over and then everyone

02:11:37.579 --> 02:11:40.539
has to accept it. And I think, I think right

02:11:40.539 --> 02:11:42.779
now people are, because of how fast the AI thing

02:11:42.779 --> 02:11:45.520
is happening, I think like a lot of people are

02:11:45.520 --> 02:11:48.640
incredibly uneasy about it. Like deep down, even

02:11:48.640 --> 02:11:50.319
if they don't totally understand it or really,

02:11:50.420 --> 02:11:53.119
I mean like not even the people creating it can

02:11:53.119 --> 02:11:55.239
tell us what it's going to do. No one gives a

02:11:55.239 --> 02:11:57.579
shit. There's like no real conversation being

02:11:57.579 --> 02:11:59.479
had. It's just kind of like, it's because there's

02:11:59.479 --> 02:12:01.600
no longer an infrastructure of actual intelligence.

02:12:02.469 --> 02:12:05.090
The infrastructure of actual intelligence that

02:12:05.090 --> 02:12:07.369
should be making a counter -argument to this

02:12:07.369 --> 02:12:11.369
AI stuff is just like people looking up shit

02:12:11.369 --> 02:12:16.390
on AI. Well, it could destroy humanity, but in

02:12:16.390 --> 02:12:20.109
the meantime, we'll make a lot of money. That's

02:12:20.109 --> 02:12:23.590
like what Sam Altman literally said. A lot of

02:12:23.590 --> 02:12:25.229
those guys actually do believe that it could

02:12:25.229 --> 02:12:29.250
destroy humanity, and they just don't care. Oppenheimer.

02:12:29.890 --> 02:12:33.239
Yeah, man. Maybe we did. Maybe we did destroy

02:12:33.239 --> 02:12:37.619
humanity. Maybe we did destroy the world. I mean,

02:12:37.619 --> 02:12:39.760
they're saying now that artificial general intelligence

02:12:39.760 --> 02:12:42.060
is going to come within Trump's presidency and

02:12:42.060 --> 02:12:44.479
stuff. And it's like, I don't even know what

02:12:44.479 --> 02:12:46.079
that means. I don't even know or care what that

02:12:46.079 --> 02:12:50.319
means. Yeah, exactly. What they say it means

02:12:50.319 --> 02:12:53.279
is that that will be the kind of AI that actually

02:12:53.279 --> 02:12:56.239
does just completely replace all intellectually

02:12:56.239 --> 02:12:59.130
human work. um you just won't have white collar

02:12:59.130 --> 02:13:01.710
workers anymore you won't have anything and it's

02:13:01.710 --> 02:13:04.909
like you know what fine then give us ubi or whatever

02:13:04.909 --> 02:13:08.050
just like then like let us just not work and

02:13:08.050 --> 02:13:09.850
like whatever if that's the way it's going to

02:13:09.850 --> 02:13:12.170
be if it's all going to be automation and dark

02:13:12.170 --> 02:13:15.970
factories and like all this shit like why you

02:13:15.970 --> 02:13:18.350
know the social contract has to change at that

02:13:18.350 --> 02:13:19.850
point they're going to give us universal basic

02:13:19.850 --> 02:13:23.340
income so that they can like what They don't

02:13:23.340 --> 02:13:26.060
need to enslave us except for what sexual favor.

02:13:26.460 --> 02:13:28.979
What are you talking about? The whole idea of

02:13:28.979 --> 02:13:33.000
like, I just, I don't know. Hey man, if no one

02:13:33.000 --> 02:13:36.439
can get jobs and no one can work and no one can

02:13:36.439 --> 02:13:38.340
make any money, that's going to be like a horribly

02:13:38.340 --> 02:13:41.220
disastrous situation for this country and the

02:13:41.220 --> 02:13:44.739
world. You know? Yeah. Like that's just not sustainable.

02:13:44.840 --> 02:13:46.899
That's not going to work. You can't just like

02:13:46.899 --> 02:13:50.659
automate everything and reduce every human being

02:13:50.659 --> 02:13:53.319
on the planet to a redundant component. Like,

02:13:53.359 --> 02:13:55.260
what do they fucking expect is going to happen?

02:13:55.359 --> 02:13:58.840
You know? Well, I mean, they know what's going

02:13:58.840 --> 02:14:00.960
to happen. They'll do it over the course of 33

02:14:00.960 --> 02:14:03.119
years. Well, no. I mean, they're trying to do

02:14:03.119 --> 02:14:05.659
it in the course of a decade. That's what's going

02:14:05.659 --> 02:14:07.140
to be so destructive about it. They're doing

02:14:07.140 --> 02:14:09.020
it a little too fast. That's probably a problem.

02:14:09.260 --> 02:14:11.119
Let's move fast and break things. That's the

02:14:11.119 --> 02:14:13.840
whole fucking ethos of Silicon Valley. Yeah.

02:14:13.939 --> 02:14:16.479
But, I mean, we've had a whole generation of,

02:14:16.560 --> 02:14:19.319
you know, living on social media to prepare them

02:14:19.319 --> 02:14:23.329
for a world of... living in a postmodern, like,

02:14:23.350 --> 02:14:25.609
noosphere. Not a world where you can't... False

02:14:25.609 --> 02:14:28.789
reality. Not a world where, like, you can't actually

02:14:28.789 --> 02:14:31.630
work or make money or pay for your basic needs.

02:14:32.310 --> 02:14:34.289
That's when shit starts to break. Oh, yeah, yeah,

02:14:34.390 --> 02:14:38.789
yeah. Oh, sure. But people can't do anything

02:14:38.789 --> 02:14:40.869
about it. It's not... If there's a different

02:14:40.869 --> 02:14:42.850
way to get our basic needs and a different social

02:14:42.850 --> 02:14:46.010
contract that comes about because of that, fine.

02:14:46.170 --> 02:14:47.329
But I don't know what that looks like, and I

02:14:47.329 --> 02:14:49.609
don't think anybody does. And, like, that's also

02:14:49.609 --> 02:14:51.670
just, like... It looks like Satan. but no but

02:14:51.670 --> 02:14:53.829
that looks like satan but i think even that like

02:14:53.829 --> 02:14:57.310
that is a continuation of this path like that

02:14:57.310 --> 02:15:00.029
is literally us just being in the room that dave

02:15:00.029 --> 02:15:03.189
bowman's in not like figuratively anymore like

02:15:03.189 --> 02:15:06.029
everything's run by a computer everyone has their

02:15:06.029 --> 02:15:08.569
needs met it is the brave new world idea like

02:15:08.569 --> 02:15:11.289
no one has to work yeah it's the wally idea or

02:15:11.289 --> 02:15:15.930
whatever you know yeah yeah yeah and wally is

02:15:17.090 --> 02:15:21.890
Basically 2001. From this movie, obviously. I

02:15:21.890 --> 02:15:23.989
mean, not to mention Toy Story and all these

02:15:23.989 --> 02:15:26.890
other ones. There's many movies based on 2001.

02:15:27.289 --> 02:15:28.989
Yeah, it was an incredibly impactful movie. At

02:15:28.989 --> 02:15:33.609
least the philosophies therein. Yeah, yeah. But

02:15:33.609 --> 02:15:36.550
I think a lot of movies that are discussing the

02:15:36.550 --> 02:15:39.649
philosophies therein are, you know, like 2001,

02:15:39.869 --> 02:15:42.729
misunderstood and whatnot. I think that a lot

02:15:42.729 --> 02:15:46.329
of this sort of... I think that the futurist

02:15:46.329 --> 02:15:52.329
nerd thing has just won in the culture. And that

02:15:52.329 --> 02:15:55.390
the idea of people who think that that's fucking

02:15:55.390 --> 02:16:00.329
gay and retarded, like... they're basically gone

02:16:00.329 --> 02:16:02.930
now. Like I think it may be coming back and there's

02:16:02.930 --> 02:16:05.109
always, you know, man, there's plenty of them

02:16:05.109 --> 02:16:07.010
around. They just can't do anything about it.

02:16:07.029 --> 02:16:09.949
Like you and I, like we don't have a voice, you

02:16:09.949 --> 02:16:12.210
know, if you really look for it, you can find

02:16:12.210 --> 02:16:13.949
the dissenters. There's plenty of people talking

02:16:13.949 --> 02:16:17.260
about how fucked up this is. And like, How wrong

02:16:17.260 --> 02:16:19.960
it is or whatever. It's already at a point where

02:16:19.960 --> 02:16:22.340
nobody... Nobody can do anything about it. It's

02:16:22.340 --> 02:16:23.779
already at a point where nobody can do anything

02:16:23.779 --> 02:16:25.760
about it. And it's just like, yeah, well, it's

02:16:25.760 --> 02:16:27.840
not even interesting to talk about how bad it

02:16:27.840 --> 02:16:30.899
is anymore, dude. Yeah, I know. It's not even

02:16:30.899 --> 02:16:34.239
clever. Remember back when people would say,

02:16:34.340 --> 02:16:38.100
oh, yeah, I call it fake book because everybody...

02:16:38.100 --> 02:16:40.479
It's like a lame uncle joke. Oh, yeah, I like

02:16:40.479 --> 02:16:42.360
to call it fake joke because everybody has their

02:16:42.360 --> 02:16:45.870
fake lives on there and whatever. Yeah. Yeah,

02:16:45.889 --> 02:16:47.950
no, it's like literally everybody is living fake

02:16:47.950 --> 02:16:50.770
lives on like not Facebook anymore, but Instagram.

02:16:50.889 --> 02:16:54.510
But like it's everything is like as bad as everybody

02:16:54.510 --> 02:16:57.030
always said. And it's not even cool to say it

02:16:57.030 --> 02:16:59.610
anymore. Yeah. I don't care about people who

02:16:59.610 --> 02:17:01.930
say it anymore. I would rather listen to somebody

02:17:01.930 --> 02:17:05.010
who talks about how it's awesome. No. And hear

02:17:05.010 --> 02:17:07.750
the wrong take. No. Then hear the right take

02:17:07.750 --> 02:17:09.610
again. I disagree. It's like it's like why I

02:17:09.610 --> 02:17:11.389
listen to Red Scare. It's like I like to listen

02:17:11.389 --> 02:17:13.389
to people who have the wrong thing to say just

02:17:13.389 --> 02:17:16.110
because I would never. you know i mean sometimes

02:17:16.110 --> 02:17:17.750
they're right or whatever it's just like because

02:17:17.750 --> 02:17:20.010
i'm not listening to things for the right take

02:17:20.010 --> 02:17:22.889
it's just like the right take is fucking boring

02:17:22.889 --> 02:17:26.049
dude like i know it's miserable and everybody

02:17:26.049 --> 02:17:28.989
literally is living in a way that like idiocracy

02:17:28.989 --> 02:17:32.909
made fun of like but now it's not even a funny

02:17:32.909 --> 02:17:37.270
like it's no i get it's so post -modern it's

02:17:37.270 --> 02:17:39.649
insane i get what you're saying man but like

02:17:39.649 --> 02:17:42.430
ultimately i disagree i think we need the people

02:17:42.430 --> 02:17:45.469
who are speaking out against it No, I mean, me

02:17:45.469 --> 02:17:47.790
too. That needs to continue. What grosses me

02:17:47.790 --> 02:17:51.290
out more than anything are these people who like

02:17:51.290 --> 02:17:53.709
welcome AI with open arms and say, you know,

02:17:53.790 --> 02:17:55.510
you got to get with the program because it's

02:17:55.510 --> 02:17:57.850
just going to happen. It's like the same shit

02:17:57.850 --> 02:18:00.299
that Mark Zuckerberg says about. Anything he

02:18:00.299 --> 02:18:01.760
does. It's like, well, if I didn't do it, someone

02:18:01.760 --> 02:18:03.479
else would have done it. This is just the way

02:18:03.479 --> 02:18:05.520
things are going. You got to get with the program.

02:18:05.819 --> 02:18:07.479
This is what people were saying about the television.

02:18:07.479 --> 02:18:09.520
It's what all scientists have always said. It's

02:18:09.520 --> 02:18:11.659
what the scientists said in Akira. Yeah, yeah,

02:18:11.700 --> 02:18:13.719
exactly. It's like, if we don't do it, someone

02:18:13.719 --> 02:18:15.579
else will. That's why we have to go to the moon.

02:18:15.659 --> 02:18:17.719
That's why we have to create rockets. That's

02:18:17.719 --> 02:18:20.760
why we have to create nuclear weapons and whatever.

02:18:21.739 --> 02:18:25.129
Yeah, it's fucking gross, dude. And, yeah, there's

02:18:25.129 --> 02:18:28.229
literally never been a lamer, more fucking stupid

02:18:28.229 --> 02:18:31.010
group of people having control over things. Like,

02:18:31.010 --> 02:18:34.290
they're the biggest, nerdiest loser fucks ever.

02:18:34.889 --> 02:18:36.409
You know what I mean? Like, they're just like,

02:18:36.489 --> 02:18:38.950
look at that dais behind Trump at the fucking,

02:18:39.110 --> 02:18:40.649
you know what I mean, at the inauguration. It's

02:18:40.649 --> 02:18:43.610
like, dude, what a bunch of fucking clowns. What

02:18:43.610 --> 02:18:46.940
a bunch of autistic losers. It's like so gross

02:18:46.940 --> 02:18:48.319
that that's like... It's fucking disgusting.

02:18:48.459 --> 02:18:49.920
Yeah. It's so gross that that's what's taking

02:18:49.920 --> 02:18:51.860
over our society. That's the best we've got.

02:18:52.079 --> 02:18:55.379
You know what I mean? None of them are men, dude.

02:18:55.459 --> 02:18:59.120
It's like... Yeah. They've got the right stuff,

02:18:59.159 --> 02:19:00.620
though. All of them. They've got the right stuff,

02:19:00.719 --> 02:19:02.520
though. In this day and age. They've certainly

02:19:02.520 --> 02:19:04.680
got the right stuff. They have made it to the

02:19:04.680 --> 02:19:06.940
top of the fucking... What's it called? The ziggurat.

02:19:07.680 --> 02:19:11.889
The ziggurat. Yeah. That's... Musk at the top

02:19:11.889 --> 02:19:14.469
of the fucking ziggurat there. Oh, man. Yeah,

02:19:14.549 --> 02:19:19.190
again, it's not the emperor sending his greatest

02:19:19.190 --> 02:19:21.209
gladiators. It's his emperor sending his greatest

02:19:21.209 --> 02:19:24.569
eunuchs. Yep. And the emperor has no clothes.

02:19:25.450 --> 02:19:28.969
Yeah. Well, you got it. Yeah, well, getting back

02:19:28.969 --> 02:19:32.770
to the symbolism we were talking about earlier,

02:19:32.909 --> 02:19:34.170
the three -dimensional, the two -dimensional

02:19:34.170 --> 02:19:37.590
shift, the pyramid. In the beginning, what we're

02:19:37.590 --> 02:19:42.299
seeing... is the eye on the dollar bill right

02:19:42.299 --> 02:19:45.879
but the eye is closed this is a symbol that the

02:19:45.879 --> 02:19:49.100
enlightened people have their eyes shut that

02:19:49.100 --> 02:19:52.020
the elons of the world that like all these people

02:19:52.020 --> 02:19:55.399
who have the power in this new paradigm the paradigm

02:19:55.399 --> 02:19:57.860
of technology these are not the truly enlightened

02:19:57.860 --> 02:20:01.600
people um that instead the the the symbol on

02:20:01.600 --> 02:20:03.159
the dollar is a masonic symbol that is talking

02:20:03.159 --> 02:20:05.940
about the enlightened people at the top of the

02:20:05.940 --> 02:20:09.120
pyramid that the They're the masses down at the

02:20:09.120 --> 02:20:12.879
bottom and that in order to... In fact, give

02:20:12.879 --> 02:20:23.579
me a second. All right, so... It's the first

02:20:23.579 --> 02:20:29.379
chapter of Morals and Dogma. Force, unregulated

02:20:29.379 --> 02:20:31.959
or ill -regulated, is not only wasted in the

02:20:31.959 --> 02:20:33.979
void like that of gunpowder burned in the open

02:20:33.979 --> 02:20:36.989
air and steam unconfined by science. but striking

02:20:36.989 --> 02:20:38.930
in the dark and its blows meeting only the air,

02:20:39.010 --> 02:20:41.870
they recoil and bruise itself. It is destruction

02:20:41.870 --> 02:20:44.549
and ruin. It is the volcano, the earthquake,

02:20:44.790 --> 02:20:48.270
the cyclone, not growth and progress. It is Polyphemus

02:20:48.270 --> 02:20:50.750
blinded, striking at random and falling headlong

02:20:50.750 --> 02:20:53.409
among the sharp rocks by the impetus of his own

02:20:53.409 --> 02:20:57.610
blows. The blind force of the people is a force

02:20:57.610 --> 02:21:00.889
that must be economized and also managed as the

02:21:00.889 --> 02:21:03.270
blind force of steam. Lifting the ponderous iron

02:21:03.270 --> 02:21:05.629
arms and turning large wheels is made to bore

02:21:05.629 --> 02:21:08.370
and rifle the cannon and to weave the most delicate

02:21:08.370 --> 02:21:12.549
lace. It must be regulated by intellect. Intellect

02:21:12.549 --> 02:21:15.489
is to the people and the people's force what

02:21:15.489 --> 02:21:17.709
the slender needle of the compass is to the ship.

02:21:17.850 --> 02:21:21.110
It is its soul, always counseling the huge mass

02:21:21.110 --> 02:21:23.149
of wood and iron and always pointing to the north.

02:21:23.770 --> 02:21:26.229
To attack the citadel is built up on all sides

02:21:26.229 --> 02:21:29.149
against the human race by superstitions, despotisms,

02:21:29.149 --> 02:21:32.670
and prejudices. The force must have a brain and

02:21:32.670 --> 02:21:35.729
a law. Then its deeds of daring produce permanent

02:21:35.729 --> 02:21:38.790
results and there is real progress. Then there

02:21:38.790 --> 02:21:42.090
are sublime conquests. Thought is a force and

02:21:42.090 --> 02:21:44.829
philosophy should be an energy, finding its aim

02:21:44.829 --> 02:21:46.930
and its effects in the amelioration of mankind.

02:21:47.469 --> 02:21:50.870
The two great motors are truth and love. When

02:21:50.870 --> 02:21:53.209
all these forces are combined and guided by the

02:21:53.209 --> 02:21:56.149
intellect and regulated by the rule of right

02:21:56.149 --> 02:22:00.329
and justice, and of combined and systemic movement

02:22:00.329 --> 02:22:02.969
and effort, the great revolution prepared for

02:22:02.969 --> 02:22:05.370
by the ages will begin to march. The power of

02:22:05.370 --> 02:22:07.610
the deity himself is in equilibrium with his

02:22:07.610 --> 02:22:10.569
wisdom. Hence, the only results are harmony.

02:22:11.270 --> 02:22:13.530
It is because force is ill -regulated that revolutions

02:22:13.530 --> 02:22:16.889
prove failures. Therefore, it is so often insurrections

02:22:16.889 --> 02:22:18.510
coming from those high mountains that domineer

02:22:18.510 --> 02:22:21.649
over the moral horizon. Justice, wisdom, right,

02:22:21.909 --> 02:22:24.809
reason. built of the purest snow of the ideal

02:22:24.809 --> 02:22:26.930
after a long fall from rock to rock after having

02:22:26.930 --> 02:22:29.030
reflected the sky in their transparency and been

02:22:29.030 --> 02:22:31.309
swollen by a hundred affluence and majestic path

02:22:31.309 --> 02:22:34.090
of triumph suddenly lose themselves in quagmires

02:22:34.090 --> 02:22:37.629
like a california river in the sands the onward

02:22:37.629 --> 02:22:39.250
march of the human race requires that the heights

02:22:39.250 --> 02:22:41.190
around it should blaze with noble and enduring

02:22:41.190 --> 02:22:44.409
lessons of courage deeds of daring dazzle history

02:22:44.409 --> 02:22:46.809
and form one class of the guiding lights of man

02:22:46.809 --> 02:22:50.260
they are the stars And coruscations from that

02:22:50.260 --> 02:22:52.399
great sea of electricity, the force inherent

02:22:52.399 --> 02:22:55.020
in the people, to strive, to brave all risks,

02:22:55.200 --> 02:22:59.239
to perish, to persevere, to be true to oneself,

02:22:59.540 --> 02:23:02.379
to grapple body to body with destiny, to surprise

02:23:02.379 --> 02:23:05.940
defeat by the little terror it inspires, now

02:23:05.940 --> 02:23:08.940
to confront unrighteous power, now to defy intoxicated

02:23:08.940 --> 02:23:12.079
triumph. These are the examples of the nation's

02:23:12.079 --> 02:23:15.659
need and the light that electrifies them. All

02:23:15.659 --> 02:23:16.860
right, maybe that last paragraph doesn't matter.

02:23:18.120 --> 02:23:20.940
But the point is, that is the ideology that Arthur

02:23:20.940 --> 02:23:24.180
C. Clarke, the 33rd degree Mason Arthur C. Clarke,

02:23:24.200 --> 02:23:26.940
believes in. He believes in this idea that there

02:23:26.940 --> 02:23:30.579
is this enlightened class of people, these intellectuals,

02:23:30.579 --> 02:23:32.739
that need to fight against the superstitions

02:23:32.739 --> 02:23:36.020
and religions of the past to guide the dumb force

02:23:36.020 --> 02:23:39.040
of humanity. And that these enlightened people

02:23:39.040 --> 02:23:42.459
are the only ones that matter. And everybody

02:23:42.459 --> 02:23:45.129
else is basically just fucking... you know cannon

02:23:45.129 --> 02:23:47.510
fodder that they're all components in a machine

02:23:47.510 --> 02:23:51.229
and that humanity itself is not important it's

02:23:51.229 --> 02:23:55.629
the results it's the the science and progress

02:23:55.629 --> 02:23:59.569
and the onward progress of the human story or

02:23:59.569 --> 02:24:05.010
whatever it is that um and kubrick takes that

02:24:05.010 --> 02:24:08.250
philosophy there the symbol of that philosophy

02:24:08.250 --> 02:24:11.729
and he inverts it he gives you the symbol with

02:24:11.729 --> 02:24:14.889
the eye closed and the enlightenment Not coming

02:24:14.889 --> 02:24:17.149
from the eye, but from the lower part of the

02:24:17.149 --> 02:24:19.510
pyramid. That these people that we've put in

02:24:19.510 --> 02:24:21.969
the power, the people in power in the technology

02:24:21.969 --> 02:24:25.809
paradigm, these are people who are asleep. These

02:24:25.809 --> 02:24:27.709
are people who are totally bought into this thing.

02:24:28.170 --> 02:24:32.190
Eyes wide shut. Eyes wide shut. While the elite

02:24:32.190 --> 02:24:33.930
sleeps with their eyes wide shut, the revolution

02:24:33.930 --> 02:24:36.510
rises from beneath. And is that not the greatest

02:24:36.510 --> 02:24:41.649
symbol of the 1960s? I mean, you have to remember

02:24:41.649 --> 02:24:44.069
that 2001 is coming out at a paradigm where,

02:24:44.129 --> 02:24:46.829
like, film itself is changing. Like, the French

02:24:46.829 --> 02:24:49.409
New Wave is a thing that, like, just happened.

02:24:49.469 --> 02:24:53.770
And the anti -fascist film is, like, I mean,

02:24:53.790 --> 02:24:55.409
either you're making fascist films or you're

02:24:55.409 --> 02:24:57.090
making anti -fascist films. That's kind of the

02:24:57.090 --> 02:25:02.610
paradigm of the, you know, 60s avant -garde.

02:25:03.729 --> 02:25:06.790
And Kubrick very much is making, you know, a...

02:25:08.080 --> 02:25:12.020
propaganda film, but he's doing it in this very

02:25:12.020 --> 02:25:14.860
French New Wave -y sort of way. I mean, it's

02:25:14.860 --> 02:25:16.500
not a French New Wave -y way, but with the philosophy

02:25:16.500 --> 02:25:19.500
of the revolution, with the philosophy of an

02:25:19.500 --> 02:25:24.780
anti -elitist philosophy and creating a symbolism

02:25:24.780 --> 02:25:28.780
of anti -elitism and saying that the elites sleep

02:25:28.780 --> 02:25:31.979
with their eyes wide shut. I mean, it's a thing

02:25:31.979 --> 02:25:33.899
that he continues to say for his entire career.

02:25:34.600 --> 02:25:38.040
Um, but he says it here to Arthur Clark, like

02:25:38.040 --> 02:25:41.299
damning his own philosophy with a symbol of his

02:25:41.299 --> 02:25:43.959
philosophy that he can't even say, like, like

02:25:43.959 --> 02:25:45.860
the Freemasons can't come out and say like, oh,

02:25:45.860 --> 02:25:47.819
you've misused ours. It's, it's a, it's a secret

02:25:47.819 --> 02:25:50.399
society. It's not, it's just something that has

02:25:50.399 --> 02:25:52.440
to be there and they can't address and it's there,

02:25:52.600 --> 02:25:55.979
you know, a bastardization of their religion

02:25:55.979 --> 02:25:59.000
and all of their futurist philosophies and everything

02:25:59.000 --> 02:26:01.659
that Elon Musk and the rest of them all believe,

02:26:01.719 --> 02:26:04.219
all this transhumanism and everything. That it's,

02:26:04.219 --> 02:26:07.200
these are people with their eyes shut. And it's

02:26:07.200 --> 02:26:12.159
only, you know, yeah, I don't know. Well, amen,

02:26:12.260 --> 02:26:16.719
brother. Amen, amen. Well, would you say that's

02:26:16.719 --> 02:26:21.479
that? That's that. That's that. I should have

02:26:21.479 --> 02:26:22.500
said matches. I thought you were going to say

02:26:22.500 --> 02:26:22.979
matches, man.