See, I believe that all the mysteries of the
universe, all the answers to life's questions
can be found in a Spielberg film. I've been afraid for
all of my life. Why doesn’t somebody just shoot
me in the head? Right up until the day I knew
my life was ending. You look bad. No, man. You
smell bad. I'm pretty fucking far from Ok. Really? I
feel like I'm sharing a very - Look at my shit. I had an affair.- precious moment
with you. There are no nations. There are no peoples.
Are you threatening me, dick? You don't approve.
Fake. Well, too bad. Totally fake. Did it seem
fake? You look like a damn crackhead. When my
best friend was bitten in half in front of me? I found this
cover story personally embarrassing myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything
but the little fishies. Alright, welcome to Everything
But The Little Fishies. I'm Evan. And I'm Mike.
And today we're going to be talking about Akira
from 1988. And we'll be talking about the manga
as well. Mike, can you remind me when the manga
was written? I believe it started in the early
80s, like 82? I think it was 82. It was. Yeah,
and then didn't he finish it after the movie
was released? Yeah, he finished it in 90. 90,
yeah, two years later. Okay, cool. And that other
voice you're hearing is Josh, an unemployed vagrant
we found on the streets. Hi, everybody. We forced
him to read the entirety of Akira the manga and
then watch the movie so that we would have someone
to talk with about it. Welcome. So, Josh, introduce
yourself. Hi. Hi. Thanks for having me. Thanks
for subjecting me to the total anime terrorism
that is Akira. Anime terrorism. In every single
possible way, emotional, literal. Yeah, it was
totally my pleasure. Thank you. It's definitely
an assault on the senses. Absolutely. So, yeah,
I guess, Josh. Josh really never watched that
much anime before or anything. So that's part
of the reason that we decided to have him on
is basically to get an introduction. And Akira
is kind of like an introductory sort of anime
work. I mean, it was like one of the first animes
that came and kind of made a name for anime in
America and stuff. And so kind of it's one of
the first that people get around to checking
out and wanted to see what a first experience
with Akira kind of was like. It's been such a
long time since our first experiences. Yeah,
my history with anime pretty much predates to
the screening of the Kingdom of the Planet of
the Apes that I saw where Mike was like, hey,
come to my car. And he returned with a big reusable
Target bag filled with the fucking fattest book
series. I've ever seen. Uh, and he was like,
Hey, these are yours. Uh, like he was giving
me some kind of like cursed totem and he was
like, no pressure, read them whenever you want.
Uh, but I, I'd like to know what you think. And
I was like, okay, all right. Uh, before reading
those books, I literally had seen like, uh, like
one episode of that Castlevania Netflix anime
series. I'm like, no, I don't, whatever this
is, I don't like it. And then, you know, whatever
you, you absorb through your, Your skin and eyeballs
being a part of the culture currently, which
is, you know, I think pretty anime heavy or pretty
anime influence heavy at the very least. Totally.
Way more so now, I think, than, you know, when
we were coming up. Oh, 100%. I think it's interesting
because, you know, Akira really is like the beginning
of that rise of anime sort of in the West that
now is like super ubiquitous. So I think it's
one that I think is really interesting to check
out. It's also one that I don't think like enough
of the sort of current anime sort of scene like
still cares about. I think that part of the thing
with anime, especially in America, but I think
in Japan too, is that like it's this culture
of, it's disposable culture. So the stuff comes
and it goes and people don't care about it five
years later. There's like these huge anime series
that take over and everybody's talking about
it. And then like, as soon as it's done it's
kind of over because these are not good or important
or like I think a lot of the problem with anime
is that I mean the biggest problem I have with
anime is if you ask an anime fan to give you
a good anime like they cannot do it because anime
bans Anime fans are not interested in film. Anime
fans in general are interested in anime. And
there are specific anime tropes that they're
interested in or things that appeal to them.
There's this type of queer anime thing or this
type of horny anime thing or whatever it is that
your demographic likes. It's like identitarian.
Exactly. And they've figured out kind of how
to find this identity and exploit this identity
or whatever and give people exactly the fan service
that they need to enjoy this type of thing. And
if you ask those people, like, what's a good
one? They're like, well, this one. This is the
one that I like. It's like, well, that's just
what your perversion is. That's what you're into.
You're just that kind of freak. I really like
One Piece. Right. And some of it is just they
like the ones that their friends are into. Some
of it is that they like the one that's about
their identity. Some of it is just this is the
edgy thing now, whatever it is. But, you know,
like when we were coming up and getting into
film, like. there were lists online of like,
you know, these are the important movies. There's
a canon of film and whatever. And you kind of
watch, you know, Citizen Kane and Tarantino and
whatever. There's just like basic stuff that
kind of everybody got into. And in anime, there
were those things kind of, you know, in the 90s,
I think that was, it was more, there was a list
of the great anime stuff and whatever. And now
it's just kind of like, there is this vomit of
like everything and whatever you're into, there's
something for you if you're an anime person.
But the people who are into that are not the
same people who are into Lynch movies and Kubrick
movies and whatever, who are also into it. It's
it's they're anime people and they're movie people
and they're separate. So it's like it's like
bespoke pornography. It basically is. And I think
that they, you know, they tie into each other
a lot. I mean, the anime pornography, hentai,
you know, overlap stuff is. All over the place,
because I think a lot of these, you know, anime
series are doing hentai things without being
hentai or whatever, just appealing to perversions.
Do you think in Japan that anime that rises to
the top in the West, like Akira and Evangelion
and, I don't know, what we would consider these
culturally important works, do you think all
that stuff just kind of, like, fades into the
sea of anime for anime fans? Like, do you think
they discern between something like Dragon Ball
Z and Akira? I mean, Dragon Ball Z is a little
different, like, because it's a little earlier.
Lots of kids cartoons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's
like a shounen thing. Yeah. But I don't think
there is as much of a, like, culture of, like,
this is the great, you know, canon of anime,
and this is, you know, not. Like, I think there's...
Yeah, yeah. I think... Japan is ahead of America
on a lot of the modernization stuff. Like we'll
kind of get into this and whatnot. But I think
that part of the thing that we see in America
now of our sort of fractured film culture where,
you know, you all have streaming services where
everybody's watching their own series and nobody's
watching the same thing as anybody else. Like
Japan, I think, got to that place before we did.
And I think that like there's like everybody
in Japan reads manga and stuff, but like they're
not all reading the same manga. they're reading
the manga that they're into or their friends
are like it's it's a much more fractured kind
of culture um is it everyone in japan like a
lot of yeah yeah like reading manga in japan
is like as common as like reading books and like
i mean nobody reads books anymore well that's
kind of what i'm saying it's like are you talking
about watching netflix that well that's what
i'm saying is it like is it a new medium over
there that is like independent from like i don't
know media we have existing in this country Well,
so that sounds I don't know. In Japan, like manga
is like the paperback, like where like people
on the train, like everybody in the 90s, at least
when we didn't have phones, we would all be reading,
you know, paperbacks or whatever. Right. But
we kind of live in the age where we've like been
kind of like ironically detached from paperback
culture. Like, you know, if you see someone like
my mother -in -law was watching my kids yesterday
and she had like a James Patterson book from
the library. And I was like, holy shit. Like
I haven't seen one of those. outside of a library
in like nine years yeah yeah so it's like that's
why i'm like is that actually true in japan or
is it like is that just our so i really i'm not
exactly sure as far as like the current modern
japanese sort of thing like i don't know if there's
a lot of people on ipads now or like at the height
of manga that's that's it was like that widely
proliferated yeah yeah exactly like like you
know housewives would be reading manga nerds
be reading manga businessmen be reading manga
and they would be reading different ones there's
businessman manga and there's housewife manga
and there's kid manga and there's many different
and you're saying that's similar to how like
everyone watches their own Netflix now or at
least everyone watches some kind of streaming
service where they can curate stuff that's like
or an algorithm can rather curate this collection
of work that meets their sort of niche right
right and I think that it's it's like a huge
culture of like tons of media just like now we've
got so many Netflix series and so many things
but like there's not one thing that everybody's
kind of all about now i think that those things
do happen like the the ava movie that you know
ava three plus one like which we all saw me included
like some of them were like you know these are
huge phenomenon anime and stuff um but I think
there's I think there's like less of a culture
of like, you know, anime fans being like, OK,
well, what I need to do is I need to see Akira
and Ghost in the Shell and, you know, Jinro and
all of the basics. They then get up to seeing
like, well, now I can watch this stuff from the
early 2000s or whatever. It's like, no, people
are like, I like anime, so I'm going to watch.
you know uh death note because that's the cool
thing it's like well what did death note get
all of its influences from where is the like
thing what and it's like that's not what they're
interested in they're interested in reading a
thing that then well like we have this kind of
diegetic approach to like how we consume media
right that is like linear it's like well we have
to know the it's what we were taught in fucking
college right where it's like to break the rules
you first have to know all of the rules and like
i don't know that kind of flies in the face of
like anime culture where like you know yeah you
could tell a kid like no you need to read ghost
in the shell and akira and they're like dude
i've seen every i've seen all 14 000 episodes
of one piece right or i've i've seen all i don't
know 30 what seems to me 32 000 iterations of
like demon slayer wing yes yeah and it's like
yeah if you have like a deep enough knowledge
in your own little subculture there like that's
good enough it supersedes like historical exactly
yeah but even specifically specifically you said
gundam wing like specifically with gundam like
there are new gundam series coming out all the
time and i do not think there's the same thing
of people who watch gundam being like i should
probably go watch mobile suit gundam from 1979
and like see where this all started and then
get to you know gundam zeta gundam and then double
get his own like they they don't it's not about
like There were these ideas that were created
in the 70s that now we're doing a new Gundam
with. If you're into robots, watch this. It's
not the canon and the building of the back of
Ori and whatever. It's weird that anime has actually
become such a normie thing now in America. I've
talked to tons of random people and they'll bring
up like, oh yeah, I like anime because there's
so much of it on Netflix now. Netflix will...
and distribute a ton of anime. And there actually
is sort of like... That's fucking insane. I'm
sorry. It was actually like a really... No, no,
I mean, there was a really big resurgence for
Evangelion because it got put up on Netflix.
Totally, totally. Finally, after 20 years. Yeah,
and there's like a ton of normies talking about
Evangelion all of a sudden. But I didn't get
the sense that they... Yeah, like I didn't get
the sense that these people... really discriminated
between that and something like one piece or
attack on titan or whatever yeah you know i guess
like i'm not an anime nerd so i haven't really
like deep dived into a ton of those kinds of
shows so maybe i'm like it's unfair for me to
say that kind of thing but like when when i get
a taste of those shows and when i hear people
talk about them they come off as these sort of
like frivolous superfluous episodic things that
you can jump in and out of any time and are are
more about these genre expressions than really
like creating a work of deep art or something
Well, the thing is, like, I think that the value,
the thing that people value in anime are not
necessarily the same things that we value in,
like, film. When you say a piece of art, film
or whatever, like, we're thinking of the art
differently. Like, early anime fans were into
Macross and stuff. They were not so much into
Macross because it was like a great piece of
storytelling that, you know. It was very much
about, like, look at the designs on this mobile
space station and how this comes out of this
space station and turns into a, like, plane and
whatever and stuff. And, like, look at the engineering
that this, like, specific artist put into this.
Like, actually, this is brilliant. Like, it's
like, yeah, well, that is brilliant. The designs
and the things or whatever, like, those are brilliant.
And then, like, it, you know, is put towards
something that, like, kind of, to me at least,
made absolutely no sense. Like, the first Macross
movie I tried to watch and it was just like...
There's some shit with some pop star that is
on a giant space platform and they're trying
to save the world. It doesn't make sense. There's
a bunch of singing and then there's a bunch of
floating space station shit. But a fan in the
70s is just kind of like, there are so many things
here to connect to in my engineering brain and
whatever that I find interesting and then can
make models of. Well, what are those things though?
I mean, like, the engineering. Like, the specific,
like, designs and, like, engineering things that
are, like... You mean, like, the literal, like,
schematics. Yeah, like, the schematics, exactly.
The schematics of this type of futurism. I think
it's being attracted to aesthetics, you know?
Just, like, how something looks and the vibe
of it, you know? Oh, totally. I mean, so much
anime is vibe -based, where it's just, like,
all you need to have are some robots fighting,
some sexy anime chicks, and... then I'm good.
Like I can watch that. That's just like a vibe
that I'm into. Yeah. No, totally. Totally. But
I think, I think like that vibe is like kind
of the basic thing that gets the viewer in, but
like where the art is, I think is in like the
schematics of like some of those, like, you know
what I mean? Like it's not, when you're talking
about something like Macross, this isn't like
continuing the tradition of filmmaking that was
started by Citizen Kane or something like, you
know what I mean? Like this is, Continuing the
tradition of drawing nerdy shit in your parents'
basement and then putting it on display to the
other nerd. It's not the same idea of what filmmaking
is. And I think that, getting back to what we're
actually talking about, I think that what's really
interesting about Akira is that I think that
that movie actually is an attempt to make a real
feature film that is a spectacle in the way that...
we think of in the West, like as a complete movie
that's like self -contained and like tells a
full story. Yeah, I mean, Katsuhiro Otomo in
like this interview said that he was very inspired
by Western movies when he made Akira. I mean,
he specifically said that like movies like Bonnie
and Clyde and Easy Rider and Butch Cassidy and
the Sundance Kid. kind of changed the way he
saw the world and storytelling and stuff. And
that he was, you know, inspired by cyberpunk
aesthetics and whatever, which I'm not sure exactly
where they originated. But like Akira does come
off as like much more of a Western work. Definitely.
Than many other animes do. And I think one of
the things that's really interesting about just
Japan in general is a lot of the things that
we think of as the greatest Japanese stuff. is
just like something that they ported from the
West and made their own. Whether it's like, you
know, blue jeans or cartoons or cars, TVs, electronics,
fine -tuned machinery. Maybe that's why we think
it's so special. Their tea ceremony is something
they imported from China. Like, it's like every
single thing is like, it's a Japanese thing,
but really it's like, it's a thing they imported
and then like perfected and made like weirdly,
ridiculously intricate or whatever. But it's
not, I don't know. Specifically, like, if you're
thinking about filmmakers, like, one of, like,
you know, who's, like, the most famous Japanese
filmmaker of all time is, like, Kurosawa, who's
just, like, a Western filmmaker. Sure, but, like,
the other great Japanese filmmaker is Ozu, who
is, like, a traditionalist filmmaker. So it's,
like, you know. He's doing it completely. But
that's, like, that's a different tradition that
I think, like, people like Kurosawa, like, break
from. Like, you know what I mean? Totally. But
I think like that's trying to continue a tradition
that is like an ancient Japanese tradition or
whatever. Right. But you're saying that's a thing
that doesn't exist. He's, you know, proliferating
a propagandistic idea of like, I don't know,
end of history kind of thing where it's like
we are the products of like a great mystic process.
And like, yeah, like they're in that mysticism,
like it has brought us to like the perfect place
of, you know. zen -ness but also like it brings
you to the top of the culture because you have
all of this stuff behind you that you've necessarily
sloughed off and it's brought you to something
new and it's like that is I think it kind of
leads right into something like Akira no totally
that's the next step but I think I think that's
like that's kind of the thing is there's like
Japan is this like Ozu Kurosawa like dichotomy
you know what I mean there is there is this thing
of like this history and tradition and this like
subtlety and this like And then you've got Kurosawa,
who's basically just, like, doing Western shit.
Yeah, I just thought a little bit. I thought
you were kind of saying, like, no, it's this
one. It's a phony sham country. No, no, no, no.
It's a Disneyland idea of Eastern mysticism.
I mean, that's probably part of the reason why
we connect with this stuff, because it is so
tinged by Western material. It's the post -war
era. I mean, we talk about Kurosawa. Like, most
of his films come from the post -war era. Right,
right. Yes. You know. Yep. And it's like, yeah,
it's, we are, you know, we helped rebuild that
society. And I mean, like. We rebuilt that society.
But one of the last. But that's kind of, that's
also what it cares about, right? Yeah. Like,
one of the very last lines is, like, effectively,
like, stay the fuck out of our country. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. America. It's the best. Yeah. It's
the best. And it's like, yeah, yeah, sorry, go
ahead. No, no, that's, like, that's exactly,
that's exactly what I'm saying. It's like, I
think, I think that, like, what we're talking
about is, like, a very specific time, like. you
know in 1944 um where these things changed you
know what i mean it was 44 right now that i said
that it's 45 45 god damn but where all these
things changed right where like you you kind
of have this society that like has been totally
isolated for like thousands of years now i mean
you know there are a couple there's like a hundred
years leading up to this but it was totally isolated
for thousands of years and was able to create
the like most bespoke like a significantly, like,
different culture, like, idiosyncratic culture
from, like, the entire rest of the world because
they were able to not be conquered by the Huns
and things, like, the whole rest of, you know,
Asia. And so they've got this, like, really specific
and different history that then they're just,
like, told, fuck that, you're not allowed to
have that anymore. You know what I mean? It's
just, like, no longer can you have a warrior
history, in fact, like, a warrior culture instead.
Like, no weapons at all for you guys. Like, you
guys went way too hard, so, like, How about none
of that ever? And, like, that is, like, it's
cliche to talk about or whatever, but, like,
that is, like, a huge, like, cultural shift thing,
especially for some place like Japan that is,
like, they were such a ridiculously specific
warrior culture, like, that was, like, willing
to do the craziest shit, like, in World War II,
like. They weren't even as crazy 100 years before
that, but their introduction of the Western stuff
into Japan and the way that they dealt with that
and the way that the samurai changed into this
super businessman thing, that shift is a crazy
shift. And Akira is dealing with that shift.
They almost sort of accepted it with open arms
in a lot of ways. Well, yeah. how quickly they
assimilated all that stuff into their culture.
Yeah. Yeah. There was the economic miracle and
stuff. Yeah. Like they, but a lot of that is
because they had no choice and were being forced
into this specific idea of success. That is a
Western idea of success. And the people that
are successful with that Western idea of success
are Western style filmmakers and things like,
you know what I mean? Like all of the things
that come out of it after that point are like,
catering to the west and like trying to depart
from that sort of tradition or not necessarily
depart from but like find some way to fit that
tradition into a new tradition or something it's
a transition period at the very least yeah and
that and that understanding really does help
make a lot of anime make sense totally totally
and manga too like so much of it really is about
this like repression and this like I don't know.
I feel like the obsession with giant robots and,
like, all these kind of, like, military things.
Like, yeah, like, Japan doesn't have much of
a military. Like, their police officers don't
even carry guns and shit. Yeah, yeah. But in
their media, there's, like, such an obsession
with, like, highly technolized war machines and
things like that. Exactly. And this is, like,
how I often think about, like... You know, in
Star Trek, we'll talk about this in the future,
but in Star Trek, they talk about space, the
final frontier. And it's like, no, space isn't
the final frontier. Science fiction is the final
frontier. You know what I mean? And it's like,
it's not about building space stations. It's
about... science fiction space stations and it's
not about building a military it's about a science
fiction military that's like in japan yeah that's
like that's what japan has built up is like since
world war ii no more military fine we're gonna
have the greatest imaginary military you've ever
heard of like we're gonna get all of our masculinity
out in like the craziest rape like shit on in
cartoons like we're gonna be the most masculine
like we're doing it's like but just like in our
you know in our games in our fun time Yeah, in
our virtual realities where we're avatars. It's
repression. It's repression. But that repression
creates some, you know, ridiculous shit. If I
were a Japanese person, I would be so fucking
mad listening to this right now. I think to be
like, to just be like completely equating like.
And I mean, like, if you were to be like, yeah,
every Japanese man is an emasculated Tetsuo being
like, stop pushing me around. You know what I
mean? It's like, I don't know, man. And we're
the people pushing them around. It's just like,
I don't know. I don't, you know, for the listeners
at home, I don't look like any kind of alpha
male, man. Like, I don't know what American hypermasculinity
post -World War II, the American hypermasculinity
project looks like. But I think. Like in Japan.
And in America, there is at least a slight autonomy
to opt out of whatever that is. You know what
I mean? That hyper -masculinity through the Japanese
lens post -World War II is not a monocultural
thing, I don't think. Yeah. However, if you're
looking at Japan in World War II, they are far
more of a monolith than any other modern world.
100%. And they are. It's about projecting power,
and it's about projecting almost weirdly dominant
male power. I mean, in the way that, let's face
it, every fucking... dictator is but like yeah
yeah like the the role of like the the man and
like and shame in japanese culture like has led
to like a history of you know historically uh
the perception at least of repression no totally
totally but like that i think i think that repression
is something that like is part of the the japanese
cultural conversation like i think it's not just
like a western audience that looks at this and
says like oh look at this cucked country i think
like akira is a thing about being like look at
this country but don't we do that to a lot of
eastern countries though you know what I mean
like handmade culture you know what I mean it's
like not necessary it's an eastern thing that
we look at it as like you know the subjugation
is not a Japanese thing actually like in to some
of the dumbest people in this country they're
like Japanese people and then they're Asian people
you know what I mean like and it's I don't know,
man. So it's like, I don't think, I don't know.
I know what you're saying that like shame is
baked into their culture, but I don't think,
I don't know, like the subjugation. It's like,
I don't know. I don't think they think of themselves
as subjugated people. I think they think of themselves
as like. They probably don't. No. I mean, I don't
think we like to think we're subjugated either.
Oh, we kind of are as well. We're sure we're
not though. You know what I mean? Whereas like,
I like to imagine that other. folks in other
countries are slightly more self -aware. But
I mean, we've renegotiated like our deal with
Japan after, I forget what year it was or whatever,
but there was a time when we renegotiated our
deal with Japan after World War II where we basically
were like, here's the new deal. Like Japan is
basically a military base for the United States.
We're allowed to have as many guys there as we
want. And if anybody attacks your country, you
don't need to protect them. And that's that.
And like Japan signed on to that or whatever,
but like the entire Japanese culture was just
kind of like. Maybe not the entire, but there
was a lot of pushback being like, dude, like,
this is not chill. You know what I mean? Like,
you're literally, this is embarrassing for our
whole culture. We're being subjugated to this
situation because we made a mistake. Or because
World War II. That's a lot of, like, post -World
War II austerity countries, though. And, like,
a lot of the culture we saw coming out of them
was like, yeah, this forced austerity by these
other countries. And, yeah, like, their involvement
in, like. Building the U .S. capital enterprise
and putting, yeah, putting military members and
bases all over the place. Like it is, I don't
know, mutually destructive. And like, yeah, they
had us. I don't know. Every single film movement
out of those is in a response to that. You know,
like the Italian, you know, cinema movement post
-World War II is about like. Especially when
you look at people like Rossellini. You know
what I mean? Yeah. It's just like absolutely
obsessed with talking about like, hey, look what
these fucking, like, you know, we were shitty,
but look what dad came and punished us with.
Right, right. Like, why the fuck does he get
to be dad? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, I
get it. Like, I... I think there's a lot of it.
And in Japan, you have stuff like Godzilla. I
just watched Godzilla for the first time two
nights ago. The first Godzilla? The first Godzilla.
I've seen others, but I was like, I should probably
watch the first one. And one of the things that
stood out to me the most about that movie was
just like, that Godzilla is Japan. And Japan
is Japan. Or Japan is America, kind of. You know
what I mean? But Godzilla is this thing that
is like... This unstoppable force that is not
going to stop just like the Japanese were going
to fight to the last man. It's a sign of resilience.
But he's also like this resilience that was birthed
in the atom bomb. So it's kind of the modern
Japanese, but it's kind of the ancient Japanese.
And then also like the Japanese are trying to
deal with this in a very Japanese way. So it's
the Japanese fighting the Japanese over their
Japanese -ness. It's all... It's Ozu versus Kurosawa.
Yeah. It really is. It really is. But like, I,
I think, I think you can kind of see yourself
as, as a Japanese person watching Godzilla. You
could see yourself as the scientist, or you could
see yourself as Godzilla, or you could see America
as Godzilla or as the scientist or whatever.
But like, it's all kind of on that very specific
anxiety and about like how we deal with this
sort of unstoppable Japanese kind of force. And
then how you like, Like, I think you're right,
but it's, like, to dive into, like, I guess the
text a little. I guess I'm talking about the
movie. It's, like, both. But, like, 5 ,000 times
Tetsuo's, like, never, like, I don't need you
to come to my rescue. I don't need you to come
to my rescue. And then when he turns into a giant
Five Nights at Freddy at the end, he's, like,
please help me. Please, Kaneda, help me. Right,
right, right. And it's, like, it's that idea
where it's, like, yeah, I mean, like, that's
the internal duel of, like, I don't want. UN
peacekeepers coming in here to fucking help even
if like whatever the old Japanese government
one wanted them here Like we you know, it's that
struggle like I would love your help. Please
don't help me. Right? But also yeah and Canada
and Canada himself is so much more of an American
archetype like even in that last sequence He's
wearing red white and blue. He's Han Solo he's
like riding a bike that has like all these capitalist
logos on it and stuff like that and like I don't
know. He's just like, he, he seems to be a much
more like Western rebellious individual character.
You just said something. You just said something
that I really want to expand on because like
my big theory is that, and maybe this is something
that people talk about. Akira is a Western. Like
it is, it is literally a Western. And like in
there, it's about, you know, I would say it devolves
into a Western, but it is ultimately like the
thing that cements the most Western trope to
me is that like, Kaneda has to leave, especially
in the movie, has to leave behind his rough and
punk ways to become domesticated to be with Kay.
You know what I mean? His entire journey is learning
to give up his friends. All of his friends die
except for the child figure who literally shares
Kay's name. And he gets to become the father.
She becomes the domestic wife figure. They ride
off into the sunset to create their own hyper
individualistic new Tokyo Empire. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. It's like it's not the new Tokyo Empire
isn't Tokyo and its surrounding area. It's a
sign you put out front of your house. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. We are the new Tokyo Empire. You know what
I mean? And it's like outside of the fact that
I think that like the colonel is literally like
he's a Clint Eastwood character by the end of
the manga. It is. Yeah. Like it is. I don't know.
I just, that's like him, him wandering through
the fucking wastelands at the end. That's like,
that's the part that I kind of miss in the movie.
You know what I mean? Cause like the movie, we'll,
we'll, we'll get to it or whatever. But like,
dude, in the manga, the, the, the fourth and
fifth mangas are just, I mean the six, two, like
the, the. The wandering around the post -apocalyptic
Neo -Tokyo and, like, specifically just, like,
the general still being there. And just, like,
and not doing anything. You know what I mean?
Well, bureaucracy is dead. Yeah. All bureaucracy
is gone. There's one guy that's, like, literally
just called Tetsuo's aide. And he is, like, the
remnant of the bureaucracy. And all he does is,
like, give pills to men and hire prostitutes
for them who are effectively slaves. And it's,
like, that is... Effectively slaves or just meat
because Tetsuro killed them. They're not even
slaves. But it's like they ripped the fucking
skin off the technocracy and underneath it is
literally just like gangs. You know what I mean?
Just like roving, murdering gangs. Which is like
what it always has been except that there's just
like this layer of distance between the gangs.
That's one of my favorite things about the movie
is just like how well it kind of sets up these
like archetypes. Of, like, the scientist and
the politician and the general and the rebel.
And then how those all kind of played out. But
why the fuck wasn't, like, the religious fanatic
there? You know what I mean? Like, those are
the things I miss. Like, I really do. I miss
Lady Miyako. Well, they're very disrespectful
to Lady Miyako. No, it's awesome. That's actually
the best part is that when she does show up,
they immediately just, like, vaporize her. She
gets, like, she's falling off of the bridge that
Tetsuro's collapsing. And then a car just comes
and slides her off. That was your character.
That was it. That was one of the main characters.
characters honestly i was like when i when i
initially saw the movie i was almost positive
that character was a man yeah yeah and it wasn't
until in english it's like yeah okay well it's
when uh when we first see takashi in in the anime
and he's he's running with that guy and that
guy gets like absolutely fucking vaporized yeah
i thought that was ryu at first yeah yeah it
looks exactly like oh no That's the guy that
looks like Ryu who gets killed early in the manga,
right? Yeah, but he doesn't look nearly as much
like Ryu. It's the doubling up of models in the
anime is fucking, it's so funny. There's another
guy who also looks exactly like Ryu who didn't
die in that scene. There's like three Ryu's.
They're like standing next to each other and
they have the same exact mustache, the same face.
One of them's wearing a hat. I feel like it happens
all the time with the colonel too where I'll
be like, that's the colonel. It's some dude with
like a little mustache and a tight crew cut.
And then it's like, no, that's some other bureaucrat.
Yeah, there's a lot of that in the manga, too.
Yeah, that's definitely a choice in the manga,
too. It's like instead of kind of choosing to
like be like, OK, this is the character. Here's
his uniform. And you kind of tell them apart.
Instead, it's like, no, we're going to have them
change outfits like every couple of pages. We're
going to keep like and everybody's faces like
look almost like like Kaneda and Kei have the
same face. Over in the same haircut. You know
what I mean? I'm very impressed with how easily
I could tell them apart reading it. Even though
they're almost identical, there's always something.
It is just craft -wise. He does a good job as
a writer. He'll tell you... I think it's early
in book three or early in book four. It has to
be book three. There's a conversation between
Kay and Nezu where he's like... And she's like,
Nezu. It's like, you were brother Rio. And it's
like, they're not brother and sister, but to
be like ideological brother and kin or whatever,
whatever the fuck. They were pretending to be
brother and sister. Theoretically. Yeah. It was
like, it was like as their cover. Yeah. It was
like a pornhub situation. It's, you know, like
they, he does a pretty decent job through dialogue
of expositing in a way that's like, Hey, this
is incredibly like aesthetically busy. So. I
don't get bothered by those little reminders
of exposition. It has a function. Totally. That
stuff wouldn't play as well in the anime, but
the anime has the advantage of having color and
all these other things. At the same time, the
anime does it too. The anime does it too. Everybody
screams each other's names the entire time. A
little bit. Takashi! Kaneda! Tetsuo! If you drank
every time that just Kaneda and Tetsuo say each
other's names, you would be loaded in like 25
minutes. You wouldn't make it to the end. Yeah,
that's like the oldest and most common joke about
the movie. Kaneda! Tetsuo! When I was watching
it this time though, during the whole final fight,
I kind of felt like... Kaneda just doesn't really
want to kill his friend. He's like, Tetsuo, heads
up! Right before he shoots him and stuff. He
just keeps giving him a heads up. Also, Tetsuo
could kill Kaneda so easily. at any moment, and
also is, like, showing restraint. I think that's
clear in the manga, too, but I think that he
highlighted it a little more in the movie to
make it more clear. Like, when the rocks are
falling and there's, like, a dome over Kaneda's
head, but you know that Tetsuro is protecting
him from the rocks. Like, there's a couple of
moments that you actually see him actually protecting
him. Instead of, like, in the manga, it's like,
we know that he could do this and he's just missing
or whatever. But... In the movie, it's more clear.
And I think that's definitely with Kaneda, too,
where he screams Tetsuo before he shoots every
time. Whereas in the manga, if he says Tetsuo,
you don't know when he said it. In the anime,
it's clear. He's like, hey, Tetsuo, coming in
right now with a bullet, just so you know. From
your left. That's also kind of an anime and manga
trope, too, though. You know what I mean? That
kind of Mr. and Mrs. Smith type of shit. You
know what I mean? Where it's like... It's all
spy versus spy where it's like, hey, we're all
fucking in the game. You know what I mean? Like,
I'll let you know before I'm about to, like,
blow your head off. Like, I don't know. I don't
want to tie that to, like. Use this power. Super
Scion, whatever. Yeah. Do it. Yeah. I want to
give you a chance to get out of this. I'm not.
This is, like, it's also, like, it's unhonorable,
right? Exactly. It would be dishonorable to,
like. It would be very dishonorable. Yeah. I
mean, like, you think about, like, the moments
in. all dishonorable moments are punished you
know what i mean like you think about like when
ryu fucking kills akira at the end of the book
you know what i mean like he's immediately it's
like oh you like this guy doesn't matter he's
punished for it it's like because like he's he
killed a kid like mr mr nezu killing you 100
immediately done yes for that yep it's uh i don't
know like this it yeah like that is it's i think
it's intrinsically tied to like that sense of
like you can't kind of take a cheap shot at somebody.
And like, that's kind of what this whole fucking
book is about. Like every single time where it's
like, Oh, boot up the big satellite. That'll
kill them without knowing. It's like, Oh, not
fair. Can't do it that way. And it's like, Oh,
okay. I don't know. Like no one, no, no one that
we know dies from the soul fucking thing. You
know what I mean? Like. That's true. A lot of
rocks get hit. A literal god hammer and it doesn't
kill anyone. The colonel doesn't even choose
to use that until it's like the last resort in
the movie. They've tried everything they can
to stop Tetsuo that whole way and then basically
his whole army has been wiped out. He's just
like, alright, fine, we'll use soul. I don't
know. This just came into my mind because I'm
stupid. But I hadn't really put the kind of world
government thing and how this obviously both
the book and the show or the movie are pushing
against the Olympics as the emergence of a new
Japan back onto the world stage. Exactly. Like
this westernized version. of it to be like that's
where we hide our most dangerous weapons you
know what i mean like i i don't know i i hadn't
kind of put that together i mean it's the denver
airport the the great olympics right like that's
it's just like oh well underneath this thing
is this huge project that nobody really it's
like what is this a water treatment facility
like all right like why do we need all these
tunnels under the denver airport like all right
As a side note, it's incredibly prescient that
the Tokyo Olympics actually did take place in
2020. In fact, it's not. I think those are planned
like 50 years from now. Hey, you guys, shouldn't
the Beijing Olympics have been in Wuhan, China?
I'm pretty sure those are all like they knew
when Akira was being written that they had made
that up. They knew already it would happen. Okay,
okay. Yeah. Scratch that. I'm an idiot. It was
in the future when this thing that we planned
happens. Like it's, you know. But I mean, weren't
there Tokyo Olympics in the 80s? Were there?
I don't know. Delete all this. That was a bad
site, Nate. Hold on one second, though. Can I
pee while we take this delay? No. I'll be right
back. He's like running. He doesn't want to waste
any more time. I don't blame him. Yeah. He's
an efficient podcaster. Yeah. We're, we're, we're,
we're almost like 45 minutes in already. So I
feel, I feel like we haven't, we haven't even,
we haven't even touched, touched on either of,
uh, we haven't gotten started, you know? Yeah,
we've started, but yeah, it's, there's way too
much to talk about, but honestly, like I, I,
I like this conversation so far. I sort of prefer
that the conversation be a larger thing about
all these things that surround the work rather
than like, getting into the nitty -gritty of
the plot mechanics and stuff because all that
all that stuff kind of just like comes through
eventually absolutely and anyone can kind of
cover that right like anyone yeah can read this
and say oh oh you know like yeah tetsuo tetsuo
uh tetsuo is is a symbol of of being bullied
and childhood trauma and shit you know i mean
a lot of i mean a lot of the really important
themes have been brought up already you know
just yeah like the the the themes of masculinity
with Tetsuo and Kaneda and the post -war insecurities
regarding the atomic bomb. Akira represents that
shift in the culture more than anything. It is
a literal atomic bomb that begins the movie and
just wipes out Tokyo. Almost literal. Are we
back? Yeah, we're back. I would say almost literal.
but it's not a mushroom cloud. It's specifically
not an atomic bomb. No, I shouldn't have used
the word little. I need to stop doing that. It's
a figurative atomic bomb. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
I mean, just like the imagery that begins the
movie is the imagery of an explosion that wipes
out Tokyo. Yeah, yeah. And it's not a mushroom
cloud, yes, but it's the same vibe, you know?
It's the same idea that this... I mean, the idea
of... Colonel having all these arguments with
the scientists about man meddling in these things
that they don't understand, I just think tracks
really well with the Oppenheimer idea and this
idea that we're messing with these powers and
forces that are wrought upon the world without
very much forethought. Totally. Without acknowledging
the consequences of what it could do to societies
and peoples. But I think one of the things that's
really interesting is, like, in the West, we've
got Oppenheimer, right? Like, we can kind of
think of that story. Japan didn't make the fucking
atomic bomb. Again, it's another thing that,
you know, the West did. But they don't have a
bunch of scientists that were anywhere near doing
that. What their scientists were up to in World
War II was Mengele shit. That is what the Japanese
scientists, they were not working on the nuclear
program or the V2 rocket program or whatever.
They were working on, like, weird, fucked up,
like, psychic torture stuff. Like, how much,
like, how frozen can you make someone's arm before
you shatter it off and whatnot? And, like, how
much, like, torture can a human being endure?
And, like, drugs and psych... Like, the type
of fucked up Mengele shit that they were doing
is, like, really, if they... Instead of talking
about the nuclear program and Oppenheimer and
all of these... Ashkenazis and Nazis and whoever
else that got together and created this bomb.
Japan doesn't have that tradition, but they do
have like all of the fucked up science that they
were doing. Ubermenschian tradition of human
experimentation. Exactly. Exactly. And that is
like, instead of thinking like, okay, well, what
are the technological advancements that made
their way to the atomic bomb? It's like, it's
kind of like, well, what if the Japanese thing
became something like the atomic bomb? Like,
how did we get from that to that? It's like,
well, through, like, mentally torturing some
teenager and, like, abducting children and doing
these things. Like, this is all, I mean, we,
like I was saying with the Denver airport and
stuff, like, we in the West have, like, a tradition
of, like, a lot of these sort of conspiracy theories
that we all are sort of aware of and familiar
with or whatever. Japan doesn't really have the
same, you know, canon of conspiracy theories
and whatnot, but they do have, like, a huge history
of all of that type of weird, fucked up stuff,
like, whether it be their cults or their whatever,
like. There's a lot of that stuff that Akira
really like, especially in the manga, but in
the movie, too, like really exploits and like
really gets into in a way that's like this is
not a Western idea. Like, you know what I mean?
I mean, in the West, maybe some of our like MKUltra
stuff and and and like. roswell stuff you know
theoretically the the mk ultra human experiments
that created these weird little alien people
that could fly this thing or whatever like whatever
those things are maybe kind of connected the
man who stared goats and the jedi knights right
like those are those are all kind of the same
but like this is a much more japanese kind of
version of that where yeah it's it's really based
in that sort of like their scientists are not
like these nerds in this room they're kind of
like these weird mongolese like all of them in
this movie And in the manga, too. And I love
in the manga that the first scientist dies just
by freezing and shit. Yeah, Dr. Wily. Yeah, yeah.
He sounds like Mr. Conductor from Thomas the
Tank Engine. He does. He sounds like George Carlin,
right? This is the creation of the universe.
It's so distracting to me. But I wanted to apologize
to the people of Korea. The 1988 Olympics were
in Seoul. So that's what I was thinking of. But
also, you know, strike one on the Asian racism
card for me. But the other part of that is...
You already stepped aside and said that you weren't
an Asian racist. So we'll let that one fly. I
will say, it does stand though, right? I think
for Otomo to see... The same thing happening
in Korea, like this incredibly like weirdly occupied,
like westernized influence, like rewriting their
history and then being like, yup, here they are.
Here are the Koreans. Building all these giant
things to just for this little temporary show.
Yup. Like, yeah, like the 20th and 21st century
South Korea is like a billboard for new Pepsi.
Um, and yeah, like, yeah, Otomo was like, yeah,
so that's why I'll put fucking Canon on the bikes.
You know, I mean, Canon's a Japanese company
though. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, I think, I think
a lot of, I'm not sure about this. I did, I did
preliminary research, so I'm not exactly sure,
but I, I heard somewhere that a lot of those
things on his bikes are actually like, um, product
placement that people put money into this movie
and that they got a sticker on the bike it's
actually kind of um because this was an incredibly
expensive project no anime had ever done something
this big and stuff so it was yeah none of that
none of that stuff was on his bike in the manga
right yeah yeah he's got other stuff on his bike
but i don't think it's it's it's not the same
but it's not yeah specific company logos yeah
i think it's kind of wild that we've almost almost
gotten an hour into this and we haven't talked
about the homoeroticism of it all At the very
end of the manga, there's this one frame where
Kei says, Kaneda is inside Tetsuo, and she just
looks horrified. To me, it's one of the best
frames of the whole thing. In the movie, he can't
control himself and crushes Kairi. But like Canada
gets out, he doesn't crush him. Well, he keeps
telling him to leave too. And it's like, it's,
it's kind of does like, it's kind of does like,
no, I'm staying inside you. Yo, yo, yo, do you
make me boss? And then he, and then he, he fires
the laser gun from inside and busts out. Yeah.
Yes. All right, guys, we've solved it. Podcast
over. Well, it is really, it is super homoerotic.
It's totally a bros before hoes mentality the
whole time. Like literally they're just telling
their girlfriends to shut up. That's the other
Western element, right? They are literally just
like a gang of like outsider fucking horsemen.
But like, yeah, you know, and they can't be domesticated.
Think about like the scene where they're coming
out of school and you know, like. all kaneda
wants is like k's attention but then like these
five groupies are all just like tell us about
your sick friend let us suck your dick for free
and they're like get away from me bitch and it's
like that is that is the absolute like that is
the heart of the western genre you know what
i mean like these men can't be tamed and it's
like you can you can either kill them or you
can you know ride them hard until you domesticate
them but those are the only two ways yeah and
tetsuo shows a lot more vulnerability towards
carrie and in the manga and i guess she wasn't
his girlfriend initially in the manga either
she's just some groupie picks up and kind of
like kind of ends up being partial to her or
whatever yeah he's his aid picks her up he he
she's like trying to get free food for her dad
and he's like no come with me and then when tetsuo
gives the pills to all the girls she doesn't
take hers so then she kind of ends up yeah and
then like immediately she takes like the role
of like dead mother obviously like administering
his his pills. But like, I think it's like the
third time we ever see her. Tetsuo has gone to
see Lady Miyako. And when he comes back, she's
like, Kaori's like. Why didn't you tell me you
were going? You know, I worry about you. And
it's like immediately he's like into that domestic
role. Oh, totally. Totally. Honestly, it's like
somewhat cute, but sort of fucked up. But like
I sort of like Tetsuo and Kairi in the in the
manga a lot. Yeah, I do, too. That relationship's
super interesting in a way that is not really
as much in the movie. But I do think it is interesting
that in the movie. Tetsuo does show kindness
towards her and like maybe it's just because
he needs her or whatever like when he comes out
of the hospital he goes to her first he like
goes to find her and he talks about trying to
run away with her or something like that and
he goes and steals Canada's bike and in all those
moments he's like he's like you're my girl like
we're together we're gonna do this let's run
away together but then the moment Canada shows
up and he and like saves him and you know they
the clowns beat kairi up and he's totally in
this place of weakness and stuff you know he's
immediately just like the rest of them he's just
like shut up leave me alone and there's also
the scene when when you know the they get caught
and they you know rip kairi's shirt off and then
punch her in the face tattoo is on the floor
and says if you touch my bike i'll kill you as
much as one scratch on that bike i'll kill you
but also he does say he does say first Kaori,
what happened? He's concerned because he doesn't
see her get punched. It isn't as bad as all that,
but it is the thing that's highlighted is concern
for the punch. Tetsuo does have a codependent
relationship with her in both. But ultimately,
he has a much stronger allegiance toward Kaneda
than he does. To her, even though she has a dad
who can't walk, who she's supposed to take care
of, and she leaves all of her obligations behind
to take care of this guy who literally crushes
her. I don't know, man. I've been married for
13 years. I need me a Kaori. i'd say tetsuo also
has a codependent relationship with kaneda totally
and that's part of where the resentment comes
from that's part of what makes him so angry is
that he does need kaneda you know and yeah i
mean kaneda has always been there for him he
protected him from bullies he returned his toy
he was the only friend for him he was abandoned
like tetsuo was abandoned by his parents and
shit the kaneda was like a good person, a good
friend who was always there for him. And he's
always, like, actually a good guy who's doing
the right thing and protecting the people he
loves. And, like, yeah, Tetsuo just has so much
resentment for the fact that he can't be that
person. And, you know, and we see in the end
when he, like, calls out to Kaneda for help,
like, please save me and whatever, that, like,
yeah, that's still there. He is still that little
boy, and he needs him. It's like, it's pretty
sad. I mean, again, this is just getting me thinking
about just like the, it's just base reading or
whatever, but it sounds very much like Godzilla,
where it's just kind of like Tetsuo's Japan is
this thing that's, you know, very determined
and it's going to keep going and growing. And
it's this thing that it's going to go to the
last living man and whatever. And like, you need
this thing to stop it. Something's got to stop
it. It's not going to stop itself. And like,
it's not that it's bad or whatever. It's just
like, you know, it's got a little bit of an inferiority
complex. It doesn't like being cucked by fucking
Connie all the time or whatever. And like, he's
trying to show his masculinity and show his warrior
-ness and his whatever. But it's like, in the
end, what does he really need is for somebody
to just be like, yeah, we need to drop a nuke
on you and let you guys settle the fuck down.
Just like, you know. Settle down. The woman is
acting up to slap her in her face and then she's
like, oh, thank you. I was getting out of hand.
Yeah, seriously. That sort of trope. Just need
a little daddy. Know your place. Daddy America.
And I guess that could get into, that is a huge
difference in the manga, is the involvement of
the Americans is much more explicit. Well, and
the Russians. All the scientists on the boat
are the Russians. Which, can I take a really
quick, just like, unrelated aside that we may
want to cut out. Does anybody know what the fuck
happened with... Dr. Sanders, was it? Dr. Simmons?
Simmons. No, he lives. What the fuck happened
with Dr. Simmons? He lives. Yeah, but what happened?
We have no idea. We don't know how he lives.
There was a whole scene of them putting Dr. Simmons
on a Zeppelin. Yes. Right? Do you know what that
was for? No. Okay. And then he goes on the Zeppelin,
and in the end, when all the other scientists
live, they're like, oh, what happened to Dr.
Simmons? And he's like, they're here! He's alive!
And it's like, but what the fuck was he doing
in a Zeppelin? It was a Zeppelin. They were setting
it up and they were like, are you okay, Dr. Simmons?
I feel so bad. I just did what Otomo wanted me
to do. You were like, what happened to him? And
I was like, very clearly, he's alive. And it's
like, yeah, that's all anyone fucking knows.
And the highlight is, here's Simmons alive. Nobody
knows what happened to Dr. Simmons through the
catastrophe. But I was wondering, was that...
Because I looked up on the internet, Dr. Simmons.
Nobody's written anything on the American internet.
about dr simmons anywhere do you think this was
a thing that he started and he had a whole idea
of what was gonna happen with dr simmons and
then he was like oh i gotta end this and then
didn't or do you think this was like some sort
of metaphor for the i don't know well it's it's
it's definitely it's definitely true that otomo
the the structure of the manga is definitely
like He kind of made it up as he went along.
He didn't know what the ending was going to be
when he started it. He wrote the first couple
issues, then they asked for it to be a serial.
He created some kind of outline, and then the
more he wrote it, the more the ending changed
and stuff. Yeah, but Dr. Simmons is in the end
of the fifth book and then comes back at the
end of the sixth book. It's not like it's early.
It's so weird for him to make this like, oh,
just so you know, this guy's important. No, he's
not. I just think that that speaks to some of
his process and how like I don't know he had
these like production notebooks and like the
entire story is like written out on two pages
and he used that to like then map out all the
panels and he would say that like there's like
you know one line of this like production notebook
leads to 50 pages of work or whatever you know
and he is just kind of like figuring it out as
he goes along and like going from one thing to
the next the movie had to be different like he
had to write the ending first in the movie and
like he had to know where it was going and to
like truncate his work into like a less than
two hour experience but that's what I'm saying
Dr. Simmons was like when he was already making
the movie You know what I mean? Dr. Simmons is
post -movie. It's post -movie. Yeah, okay. Because
he stopped that episode at issue 88. And then
he had an additional 32 issues after that. It's
like Simmons literally comes in after he's already
finished the movie. Yeah, I don't know. So what
the fuck is Simmons? I don't know. It's so weird.
That's what this whole podcast is trying to understand.
The whole point of it here is Dr. Simmons. Honestly,
it's like I... this was the second time I read
through the manga and I didn't do it very quickly
and I didn't take any notes. And honestly, like
a lot of the manga, just like for me, like I
just lose it really quickly because so much of
it is just like plot and just plot minutia. And
I had a really hard time like holding on to characters,
remembering where I'd seen them last, stuff like
that. I kind of read all six books over the course
of like three months or something like that.
So like, yeah, I just, I had a really hard time
holding onto things. Like there was obviously
like things out that, you know, themes I picked
up on and meanings I picked up on, but like,
I don't remember the names of any of those fucking
characters on the, on the aircraft carrier or
what they were doing or why it even mattered
at all. Like, I don't miss any of that stuff
in the movie, you know, but like, I do think
there's stuff there and like, It does add so
much more texture to the book and detail that
the movie lacks. I think a lot of these asides,
these tangents or whatever, even though they
may not contribute to the final point or whatever,
and you wouldn't want to include them in a movie
that was trying to be concise, I think that a
lot of them are such interesting. again very
Japanese like perspectives and stuff where it's
like if we were making a you know giant international
disaster movie or whatever we wouldn't give a
fuck what the USSR was doing at the time or something
or if we did it would have some sort of like
political thing tied into it or whatever but
like I kind of liked it in Akira it's like well
there's the Russians and there's the Americans
and they're basically just doing the same thing
in a little different way he really tries to
like have all that and not take it for granted
yeah Which is cool. I agree. I think that works
with a lot of the other things that I kind of
love. Like I was saying, the post -apocalyptic
wandering around the wasteland thing. We've got
planned a zombie episode someday or whatever.
But there's many, many post -apocalyptic American
movies and science fiction movies and whatnot
where you've got people just wandering through
some sort of wasteland and you come across this
or that. I mean, if there are fucking zombies
there, it's effectively a wasteland to begin
with. The dead are risen. Yeah, yeah. But the
way that we depict that wasteland in the West
is, like, so kind of, I don't know. Like, I think
what's weird about Akira is that, like, it's
been, like, two weeks and everybody is in a cult.
Like, you know what I mean? Everybody's willing
to give up their lives for this, like, god leader
or whatever. That's not something that would
happen in America. And that's totally like a
Japanese. Disagree. Completely fucking disagree.
I don't know, man. I think, I think that like
there, there are types of charismatic leaders
and things that I think that are a thing in America.
But the thing of like, I am immediately like
willing to lay down my life for the honor of
being a part of this like thing. But the power
was exercised right before their eyes. You know
what I mean? And I think that's the thing. And
I think that's part of the nuclear metaphor,
right? Like, why the fuck did they surrender?
But Miyako, like, I mean, I don't know. I guess
there's some powers that were, like, Miyako's
people were showing to or whatever. But I just
think. Miyako's right. Miyako's right about everything.
Everything Miyako says is true. And she can't
stop it anyway. Right. But she's also, like,
in it for herself. Like, I think about her relationship
with Sasaki in book three a lot where it's, like,
she's always, she knows that a bad future is
coming. And she's like, I'm so sad that I can't
help you grow into the woman who will, like,
change the world. And it's like, we're left to
wonder, like, is that because Miyako knows she's
sending her off to die? Or is it because she
knows, Miyako knows that she's going to die and
won't be able to control Sasaki in the future?
And it's like, either way, like, the issue here
for Lady Miyako is that she will not have control
anymore. Not that something bad is going to happen,
but that she won't be able to control what is
bad. And it's like, I think the thing that is
missed in the movie is that you don't synthesize
like government bureaucracy, you know, religious
extremism, and then just like straight up economic
populism. Just like the three headed hydra that
has like, that's what Western society brought
over there. And like, I think that what we do
get in the manga is like a depth to the colonel's
hypocrisy. And how he's constantly saying something
that he deliberately doesn't mean. And then in
the next panel, it is immediately reversed. Where
I think about like there's this panel where Nezu
says like. We need to hit the button? No, it's
when he says it's in times like these. When you
need something done, you need to do it yourself.
And then the next panel, he says, someone have
my car brought around now. And then in the next
book, the colonel says, if there's one thing
I hate, it's someone using the army for their
own personal gains. And then his driver says,
sir, you do that all that. And then it cuts off
and he says, I'll pretend he didn't say that.
And it's that type of like when you see that,
like. Everyone who is not a civilian is on the
take. Like, that type of, like, crony capitalist
thing that, again, came from... Dude, everyone
who is a civilian is on a take, too. That's the
thing. The followers of Lady Miyako are on a
take. But no, no, no. The followers are not.
That's the thing. The followers are not. They
literally die for her with nothing. You know
what I mean? Like, Chiyoko, like, the resistance
is even K. and Ryu are pictured as useful idiots.
They're people who don't know that they're 100%,
but they're also, they become adherents to Miyako
too. And they have this dual allegiance to Miyako
and Nezu too. And like, I think like Miyako and
Nezu are in cahoots too and whatnot. And all
of these people are corrupted by their relationships
to each other. Miyako, Nezu is conservatism,
even like American conservatism and Miyako is
liberalism. This idea that there is like, A nice
way to deal with these really evil problems.
I don't see Nezu as a conservative at all because
I see him as the type of guy who is stoking the
terrorists and whatnot. I see him very much as
sort of like a... He's like a deep threat. No,
I just think of him as the type of person who's
like, I can gain power by creating chaos in the
streets and I can create chaos in the streets
by supporting an anti -establishment sort of
regime. That is literally conservatism. I mean,
neoconservatism perhaps, I guess. I mean, like
in America, it's also liberalism currently and
whatnot. Absolutely. But that's what I'm saying.
I'm saying like those are the two types of like.
You know, it's neoliberalism and neoconservatism.
That is what they represent. You know what I
mean? Like, you know what I guess? Like, in a
way, you're right. In a way, I guess you could
say they're kind of flipped. You know what I
mean? I would think of her as more conservative
and him as more liberal. Right. But he's doing
the thing. Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe historically.
But he's doing the thing that, like, is a special
neoconservative trait, which is, like, I'm just
telling you the truth, even though it's, like,
deeply, deeply skewed towards, like. Not the
truth. You know what I mean? Like, deeply skewed
towards, like, that personal agenda. Yeah. But
I think the neoconservative thing of, like, creating
the enemy and then using that power to attack
the enemy or whatever, that I could see, but...
I don't even totally understand... He seems like
a Bernie Sanders to me, man. I don't know. He
seems like a guy who's just like, no, all the
people on the street who are causing chaos, they're
on my side and whatever, and it's like, well,
why... It's like, what did Evan say? Like, Evan
just said, like, we don't understand... I don't
even understand what Nez's goal is, but, like,
how does he die in the movie, right? With a suitcase
full of fucking money. The movie makes it clear
what his goal is. In the street, yeah. And the
movie does not make clear what he's up to or
what he is at all, but it does make clear what
his goal is. Yeah, that's fair. I don't even
know how he's connected to anybody else in the
movie because the movie is so poor at explaining
any plot details. Yeah, that's true. I know exactly,
like far more clearly than the comic, like what
his character is. No, sure, sure. He ultimately
wants money and power. Like that's simple. But
I don't really understand the gambit. Like I
don't understand what he hopes to gain. How he
thinks he'll get away with it? Yeah, or just
like what he hopes to gain by supporting this
terrorist cell that's trying to do what. capture
akira like does that way that way if you create
enough chaos in the streets you can be like we
shouldn't vote this guy in look there's been
chaos in the streets we need a new like uh like
a biden or something to fix this yeah the chaos
in the streets though has very little to do with
akira until the power is awakened and stuff like
that i don't know i mean yeah what no but no
but it does i mean it has to do with the warring
factions that nezu is controlling if they're
fighting each other they're not fighting us type
of thing exactly yeah yeah Maisie gets power
off of the warring factions warring with each
other. He's talking to the cults and he's talking
to the terrorists and he's talking to the politicians
and he's just making sure that they all keep
fighting so that they all come back to him. I
guess it depends on whether we're talking about
the movie or the book. I guess in the book it's
a little bit more clear. Kind of what he's doing.
But I guess, and then I guess that. Kind of,
but not really. He's like trying to pull a fast
one on people is what he's doing. But what's
he trying to pull a fast one on? But like even
he doesn't know. Like he doesn't know. He's like,
I'm, yeah, she doesn't know that I'm actually
going to do this. And it's like, but what are
you going to do that for? But he fucking kill,
he shoots Ryu because he thinks like Ryu like
went to the feds about him being corrupt in government.
And it's like. that's i don't know i think there's
really i mean in the movie he shoots ryu because
he's ashamed like that's like he shoots ryu because
ryu comes in at the moment where he's like yeah
yeah and it's like he's he's ashamed and caught
in like you can see him for what he is and ryu
doesn't even see him for what he is but like
the fact that he's there is like well i can't
i can't live with somebody seeing this or something
like you know And he also, I think he knows he's
dying at that point because he's having this
heart attack. He literally turns red before,
yeah, before he's like, yeah, he even comes in.
It's just this weird, pathetic death trip thing.
I love Nezu. I do. I love his character design.
I think he's so funny. I just, like, I like when
he's like handling his assets. You know what
I mean? Like, I think he's very capable of doing
it. I think he's kind of, I think it's a shame
what happens at the end. He's the kid at the
top of the water tower in Pennsylvania. If he
had been a tenth of an inch off, he wouldn't
have brained some dumb talk Takashi. He would
have gotten the guy. But I guess, in a way, what
Ryu eventually does is just repeat. what nezu
does right is like he finishes the job that nezu
started but it it unleashes a new type of catastrophe
he's doing it because his friend died like you
know what i mean he's just like continuing the
thing because he's this thing happened and i
started it and it doesn't mean anything if i
don't like you know yeah he doesn't have a thing
that he's trying to accomplish and like nezu's
just doing it for the money and that's not a
thing he's trying to accomplish either and lady
miyako is like has no She's just letting things
happen. Like she's not even intervening. She's
like, I know that this happens this way. And
so I have to go here or something like there's
some, she's playing some sort of game, but what
she's trying to direct influence, right? Like
her whole relationship with Nezu is like hoping
that this guy might actually have some that like
when he is operating Ryu and K that like some
of what he says he means, that's what she hopes,
you know? And it's like, Or at least that he's
useful enough to get Ryu and Kei to her. She
sees through the motivations to just what happens.
Whether he is on her side or not, if it gets
people into her place trying to kill him, then
she can talk to those people. Whatever it is
that brings those things together. I guess, like,
speaking of Lady Miyako, like, what do we make
of Kay's clairvoyance? Or, like, do we have anything
to say about that? I don't know. Everybody has
the power, man. That's fair enough. You just
have to unlock it. I think that's one of the
things that's interesting that I kind of wanted
to get into was just the idea that the power
comes from different places in the book and the
movie, right? Like, in the movie, it's very clear
that, like, the drugs didn't create this power,
that it's the collision with... They actually
suppress it. what yeah they actually and in the
book they actually suppressed it eventually but
in the book it's like no we're it was the experiments
on tetsuo after the initial thing that may have
awakened him right like but there's there's a
process of well i mean it was his impact with
takashi that started it i think right but but
that this is brought out that's also kind of
pretty unclear yeah i mean in the in the in in
the manga there are many there are many like
telekinesis guys like they're like they're they
have like the heavy who comes in or whatever
like they can i mean like some of them are part
of miyako's crew right like miyako's people can
all do telekinesis and whatever like it almost
seems like something that can be reached through
like meditation basically right just like and
ritual or it could be something that's sort of
like you know reach through these more brutal
methods of experimentation and drug using and
I don't know. I mean, for me, this really gets
into just my whole entire like psychedelic worldview
about. That's exactly what I was going to say.
I think that it's a very psychedelic idea. Yeah.
That is very different than other sort of, I
don't know, supers. power things like this one
is very specifically a superpower that is brought
on by a psychedelic drug yes and not just a drug
but a psychedelic drug like a hallucination drug
i certainly don't want to derail this before
we get started but what do we make of the fact
that the psychedelic drug kills all the women
i think you handle that shit yeah that's uh i
think like there's there's two of them there's
miyako and there's um little uh what's her name
suzaki yeah no in the bed in the bed Oh, Kyoko.
Yeah, Kyoko. Kyoko survived. She just lost her
legs, I guess. Yeah, but like they both become
like wizened husks. Yeah, but also I think the
power of the drug matters. That gets brought
up. There's different like doses and like there's
different levels of potency that the drugs have.
I feel like, you know, Tetsuo is just giving
some real hard shit to those girls. Yeah, you're
probably right. And making their heads blow up,
you know. You're just saying their little lady
brains are not strong enough. Well, I just kind
of thought like if we're following like the psychedelic
thing to its logical conclusion where it's like,
and like even to this day, and I'm not, God damn
it, I'm not going to put my foot too far in my
mouth. But I do think like that idea of like
mind expansion and, you know, what parts of myself
can I unlock to be optimized? That's like such
a male thing. You know what I mean? Like, and
it is to have someone be like all the men who
take it. They unlock something inside of themselves.
It might not be good, but when women do it, it's
quite literally ego death. I just, I don't know.
Maybe women are already, and obviously I'm not
saying, I don't necessarily believe what I'm
saying or whatever, but I guess there's an idea
that women are already more. Enlightened. Enlightened,
yeah, and empathetic and connected to the ancient
memories of the beginning of the universe or
whatever. I'm holding Mike back right now. That
they're mothers and they – like I remember learning
in like philosophy class like this idea that
like women will become aware of the cycles of
nature quicker than men because they have to
deal with like the cycles of their bodies. Sure.
they become aware of these psychedelic ideas
earlier. I've known about winter for years, personally.
Sure, sure. But the cycles of one's body. Just
like when you have to deal with bleeding every
month and whatever. And just like how the forces
of nature control you and you become much more
subservient to them. They dominate you. And women
as a species over... all time have had to deal
with the domination of men and just not really
having a whole lot of say in the matter, you
know, and having to like accept and this process
of acceptance, which is very Buddhist and psychedelic
as well. Maybe, maybe acceptance, or maybe we're
talking about top and from the bottom though,
you know, it really depends on how you want to
read it. Well, that's what Dune gets into, right?
Like Dune, the women in Dune are more, they're
the ones who can, connect to this sort of mental
abilities and mind reading a lot easier than
men and whatever. I don't know. Like this, it
could all just be bullshit and just like based
on cultural ideas of these things. But I think
there could be some truth to that. I just don't
know how much like Otomo is actually getting
into that or whatever. Right. Right. But I do
think, I do think for me, it's, for me, it's
interesting that it's, that it's psychedelic
and just in general, just because like there
is sort of that acid idea of like, well you know
if i believed enough that i could walk through
this wall then i could just do it or something
if you just open your mind to this idea then
you could be a millionaire in seconds or whatever
we could just become the thing that is whatever
it is that we want to be if only we could get
past that thing and like That idea that is just
sort of a psychedelic acid idea or whatever,
it's like, oh, wait. But then if you go too far,
it's ego death and you just melt into the all
one. Exactly. And you go back to the beginning
of the universe and your whole reality deconstructs.
But here's what I was thinking the other day,
though, man. I've watched a friend who was on
way too much acid who just realized, oh, wait,
we could be millionaires in seconds. And they're
just having this incredible moment. Who was that?
I don't know. They're having this incredible
moment of like, oh, well, I could do this. I
could do anything that I could think of. And
it's like, yeah, well, what's happening is your
brain is just, what if instead of worrying about
the lack of possibility here, we just gave them
all the serotonin instead? So like everything
you think of is like, oh, well, that's happening
and that's happening. Your brain's just like,
we just surpassed the whole reality thing and
give you the serotonin. But my thing is like,
if you heard that, if you were watching that
person, you're like, we could be millionaires
in seconds. And you're like, wait, fuck, okay,
we got him. Get this kid, get him in a room.
Pump him full of acid until he figures it out.
We're going to give him more drugs. Give him
more drugs. Give him more drugs. He said that
we would be millionaires. We're going to figure
it out. We're going to really, like, that is
the science that is on display in Akira. It's
like, let's get all the best scientists together
and just, like, this kid. He was tripping pretty
hard. Let's get him to trip a little harder because
then maybe he'll be able to explain it. Yeah,
like Akira is literally just the kid who tripped
the hardest. Yeah, that's exactly it. He's the
kid that tripped the hardest. And like faded
into oblivion, you know? Yep, yep. I mean, so
to speak, at least mentally. I guess they experimented
him to death in the movie. Right, right. But
it's like it's Mengele with acid. No, no, sure,
sure. But that whole speech that Kay gives that's
really stilted in the movie. In English, it is
so bad. Which one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where she
says, people build things, like trains and bridges.
And they walk on roads. But that's the other,
like, central thing that I think that, like,
the movie is about is, like, the military mindset
toward building mixed with what is perceived
to be, like, the scientific mindset toward, like,
theoretical. uh advancements instead of like
actual progress like stagnancy versus action
you know military versus science like and k to
a degree is like kind of a military person you
know what i mean like it's i don't know i think
that's like this the other central dichotomy
in this okay it's totally about i mean k and
ryu are are She's military -minded, but she's
also not giving that speech. That's Kyoko giving
that speech through her. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's
true. But to go back to that, though, that speech
that Kei gives is sort of like the movie's version
of the speech that Kyoko and the kids give at
the end of the manga when Kaneda is in the All
One or whatever, when there is no time anymore
and he's just going through all the memories.
And you know what I mean? Which is done amazingly
in the manga where like the panels just become
completely like jumbled and like they're all
on top of each other. I think it's kind of beautiful
in the movie too. Like I think like, and I think
like that right before the credits is so fucking
great. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The opening. That,
that, that part's, that part's really great too.
But what I mean is like the actual, the very
direct explanation of what the power of Akira
represents, which is the ancient memory of the
universe. And the, the amoeba that, It's like
how Tetsuo is an amoeba that gains the power
of a sentient human being. And to me, this just
sounds like something I would think of on acid.
Yeah, and so when you open the doors and then
time and ego dissolves, it's the idea of you
gaining the power of some kind of future evolutionary
development or dissolving back into the beginning
of the universe or whatever. That like all universal
memory is stored in ourselves and that every
person can access this sort of like deconstruction
or accelerationist kind of timeline within themselves.
Yeah, it's like you have no power, but now you
know and are everything. What year was Altered
States? Altered States was 70? That was also
the 80s. I thought it was later. It's later.
It's not the 70s. I think it's the 80s. Maybe
it's 80. Yeah, it's 80. It's 1980. So it's before
Akira. And it's the same fucking story. You just
described the ancient... Through a psychedelic
experience, connecting to the ancient memory
of the amoeba and going back to your roots or
whatever, does it make you bigger? Does it make
you evolve or devolve or whatever? That's the
power in Akira. Yeah, yeah. Where did all this
energy come from is what she says. It's all the
same energy that was always there. It's just
evolved and reconfigured into a more complex
form. And I don't know, this gets into the ideas
of entropy and stuff like that, too. Like, maybe
it just, like, it expands and it contracts. Like,
everything comes from this, you know, simple,
low -entropy point and then becomes, like, this
high -entropy point that also is basically just
low -entropy, that everything evolves to a certain
complexity and then breaks down again. But I
think, like, that's what kind of Tetsuo is experiencing.
He's experiencing ego death. He has a brief moment
of having these immense powers over the physical
world, but then just goes a little bit too far,
and his body just completely morphs and falls
apart, and there's no cellular structure anymore,
and his mind just fades into oblivion. His life
flashes before his eyes. We're talking about
this as a psychedelic drug situation, but it's
also, the way you're describing it, almost sounds
like leaving Las Vegas. You know what I mean?
Or it's just like this person. Yeah. Yeah. It's
just this person deteriorating from this substance
use where like, you know, their cells can no
longer hold together a sentence. Yeah. I mean,
it's a story about like a dude, like losing himself
to opioids too. Yeah. It's about, I mean, it's
about a guy who had a friend who lost himself
to opioids. That is. Yes, it is. And, and when
he's holding the thing in the end, it's Tetsuo
or whatever. It's like. Man, I miss you, you
know? You were a great guy, and then this thing
happened, the fucking government put out the
fucking, like, why the fuck are they making this
shit? It's coming out to you. And like, then
he got this shit and he was good for a while.
He was like, whatever. And then it just got worse
and worse. And I tried it and he kept looking.
He didn't want help, but then he did want help.
He needed it. And somebody needed it. Like it's,
it's, it's really sad. Really, really sad story.
Yeah. Canada is just like a good friend. He's
trying to get his friend off the opioids and
he just won't listen. He's like, fuck you. Leave
me alone. I can do drugs if I want to. They make
me feel great. Yes. They make me feel like I
could be a millionaire in seconds. They're just
like, nah, dude, you're just like dying. You're
just dissolving until you're a monster. You're
not even yourself anymore. And eventually, I
think what's interesting is eventually the drugs
are helping him. You know what I mean? They're
not making him more powerful. They're making
him less powerful. Like in the manga, you know
what I mean? At the end, it's like, I need these
pills because otherwise I get the headache and
then I start to expand and whatever. It's like,
no, I need the pills. Okay, now I'm normal again.
Now I can be a person. It's a drug dependency
that is turning him into a monster in between
the drugs. it's it's definitely yeah yeah like
i think about his scenes with kaori where he's
like coming like before he turns into like cyborg
tetsuo and he's like incredibly tender with her
trying to get her to go to sleep and it's like
that yeah like that's the dude who's like i take
the drugs just to live and be a normal person
now yeah yeah yeah exactly it's really it's it's
like definitely But then eventually they can't
even help him do that anymore. Right. Like he's
just way too far gone and no one can help him.
And it's, it's over. He's gonna, he's gonna die.
He's gonna have an overdose or whatever. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, enter another universe, you know?
Yeah. It's like, yeah. As much as I love the
ending of, of the movie, it does make me kind
of wish like, because it is like, that's, I feel
like, especially in like Western opioid society,
like I have fucking two brothers who died from
drug overdoses and it's like, it's one of those
situations where it's like our, you know, the
hillbilly elegy crowd in this country would love
to see a movie that ends with like a guy riding
a motorcycle with his ghost motorcycle buddy
who died of an overdose. Like that's the most
American thing I can think of. Like we need that.
No, totally. Totally. No, that is, that is really
true. I, I do love that about the ending of the
manga where the ghosts, uh, Tetsuo, right. And
the ghost, um, Yamagata are riding alongside.
They're still here. They're not actually gone
and all this kind of stuff. That is also very
psychedelic. And also could be overly sentimental
in any other context. It is overly sentimental.
It's insanely sentimental. When you get 2 ,000
pages into something, you want that. You want
a very epic... sign off you want you want a little
majesty i think i mean because like because like
you said about you know the connor's journey
of becoming more of just like I don't know, a
man. Like you say, he loses all of his friends,
and then he's with this woman. He becomes in
this sort of domestic unit where they start their
new empire together. But in the end of the manga,
he still has his friends there, like in ghost
form at least. Oh, in ghost world only. We always
take our homies with us, you know what I mean?
Yeah, exactly, exactly. In the movie, it feels
a little bit more like he really lost everybody.
And, like, there is the final moment where you
see the sort of, like, galaxy eyeball thing,
and you just hear, I am Tetsuo. And that's how
the movie ends. But that's such a surreal, almost
abstract expression right there that I don't
really know. I don't know that that's supposed
to represent the ghost bikers or what. Right.
It's not like I am Tetsuo watching Canada right
now. It's just like the universe is Tetsuo. Tetsuo
is everything. Tetsuo is like the all -seeing.
I, like, or whatever. I don't know. Can we talk
real quick since we're on the ending, though,
about the final, in English, the final voiceover?
But someday we might be able to because it has
only just begun. It has already begun. Yeah.
It's like, but it's so bad because it should
just be, but someday we may be able to. because
it's already begun. Like, you know what I mean?
It's like, it makes sense. It actually, like,
on paper, totally makes sense. They're talking
about whether they'll be able to get out of the
realm or whatever. And she's like, well, someday
we may be able to, because it's already begun.
But in the movie, it's just like, just abstract,
totally disconnected words, where they just like,
somebody's reading something, they don't know
what it means. Syntax salad. Somehow, we might
be able to, because it has already begun. It's
like, what do you think? It literally means nothing.
But if you read it, it makes perfect sense. It
sounds like she was cut off mid -sentence, like
she was supposed to finish a sentence, but then,
yeah, like it's interrupted. And then it pauses
for too long before he says it. It's so awkward.
But it also, like, I watched it recently in English,
and then I watched it in Japanese. And there
was... First of all, there's a huge difference
as far as the soundtrack. Just like the levels
of the soundtrack is completely different. There's
way higher music in the Japanese score. In the
American score, everything is much lower and
the voices are much higher. So when I first was
watching the Japanese one, I was like, dude,
is there something wrong with this? It sounds
like really, like, it's too loud. I can barely
hear the dialogue. It's like, no, this is how
it was. And I think that also the dialogue sounds
kind of muddy because it's old 80s recording
technology that probably hasn't been like, who
knows? But it doesn't sound as good and clear
as the American one, but it sounds way better.
The dub that we're familiar with is from 2001.
And there was an original dub from 88 that's
like a lot more haggard and weird and like is
not as accurate to the script or whatever. Right,
right. Different voiceover cast as well. But
then. But, dude, the Japanese version, I remember,
Mike, you and I went to see the 4K re -release
of Akira in theaters in, like, what was that,
2020? Yeah, somewhat recently. It was during
COVID. Yeah, it was 2020. And there was, like,
no one in the theater. It was, like, just you
and me and, like, three other people. It was
amazing, though. And, like, we both said, like,
dude, that was the first time we ever watched
Akira with subs. And, like, yeah, dude, the mix
is so much better. It's just, like, the whole
experience is way better. And then noticing that,
like, that they actually did pre -scoring, that
all the mouth movements actually match up with
the Japanese dialogue. Yeah, completely. It's,
like, really cool. Yeah, yeah, which is very
rare for anime to do pre -scoring like that,
to record the audio first. I think it's rare
for any animation to do because it's so, I don't
know, like, you're working with, like, a very
difficult template. You're working to get, like...
you know, perfect audio fidelity. Whereas like
many, many cartoons don't give a fuck about that.
It's just like, we'll give it like the vague
motions of what this would look like. I think,
I think pre -scoring is a lot more common in
American animation because they do just want
to get voice actor performances right first before
doing the animation. Like all Disney does pre
-scoring and, you know, most like, like popular
animated TV shows will do pre -scoring and stuff.
But yeah, anime. does not do that quite frequently
yeah it's crazy to think i don't know to try
and listen to the thing time out the like where
the lips smack and stuff okay yeah it's well
because yeah if you if you do the animation first
then when the voice actor comes in they're going
to give a really really that's part of why the
2001 dub is stilted because they actually are
this is what i'm trying to match Yeah, they're
trying to - the American voice actors are trying
to match with the mouth movements as best as
they can. And it's not just the mouth movements
too, it's also just like how long a statement
takes. Often they'll say something and then say
another little thing on the end to make it a
little bit longer so that it matches how long
the Japanese one says. It's not that they're
doing a bad job. I think they do a really good
job of all the voices and stuff. It's actually
very well recorded and whatever. Their performances
are good. It's just the process of trying to
fit dialogue to the pre -existing lengths and
times and whatever makes it awkward yeah and
then there's also just like the weird stuff of
like yeah there are performance problems where
somebody doesn't know what they're reading and
they're saying somehow we may be able to because
it is just doubling and tripling of voice actors
too which happens in the american version yeah
yeah yeah that's that's definitely a problem
especially for like the extra people on the back
end where everyone ends up sounding exactly the
same yeah yeah well that that one that one specific
like the the one in the ending is like that's
a voiceover so like They don't actually need
to be matching it to vocals, but the reason why
it's stilted is because it's a single line of
dialogue that, like, one character begins and
then another character finishes. And they didn't
have two people in the same room doing it. And
they didn't have two people in the same room
at the same time or something. You know what
I mean? Yeah. And they're just, like, not coordinated
or whatever. They're also the most cartoony -sounding
characters. Like, the Espers sound like, I don't
know, like Rugrats characters. You know what
I mean? Like, it's pitched so high that, like...
A line like that can't help but kind of sound
clunky. Pitched so high. Yeah, I think that's
true. It's just goofy. Yeah, she just didn't
get the right note. Whoever was doing the ADR
coaching just, like, you know, fucked up. And
she's like, no, you have to deliver it like this,
you know. I feel like maybe they were just like,
no, it's fine. It's good enough. Yeah, exactly.
I think it's a lot of good enough is the problem.
It's like, yeah, we have a deadline. We have
to get this out. I'm just recording this somehow.
We may be able to. It's not that important. It's
just the last fucking line in the movie. It's
fine. We don't need to do another take of somehow
we may be able to. It does. Evan, you brought
up the score first to say how on the Japanese
dub the score is so much more foregrounded. It's
not the best part of the movie. I don't know.
I think it might be the best part of the movie.
I think it's fucking unreal. Tetsuo's theme is
like, One of the best pieces of scoring I've
ever heard. This is the other thing about the
movie. It is such a rich, beautiful, aesthetic
experience. When I read the manga, I don't know.
I feel like sometimes you could take a manga
and turn it into an anime. You could take a book
and turn it into a movie or whatever. I don't
know, like Jurassic Park, for instance, it's
something where so much about the aesthetic experience
of Jurassic Park is not in the book, like John
Williams' score and the way the dinosaurs look
and just so much about the atmosphere. I just
think the atmosphere of Akira, the movie is so
incredible and the music is so iconic and the
colors of the movie. just i don't know the sound
effects and stuff like they use the sync clavier
to like program all the sound effects and stuff
i don't know it's just it's super super cool
and all that like that is stuff that i just like
you don't necessarily like miss it when you're
reading the manga but it's such a like an important
part of the experience of the movie yeah the
movie it's they took every opportunity Every
opportunity to show off in that movie, basically.
And not just to show off to American Western
audiences or whatever, but to show off to the
anime people who know how hard it is to animate.
You know what I mean? He's showing off to his
cohort of other animators and whatnot. A lot
of what's done for Akira is creating new colors
that have never been pigmented before. It's kind
of one of the cruel reasons to start here because
it's like... No one else has this budget. What
did they use? Five different actual studios.
Toho ended up distributing and releasing it,
but they used five different studios to finance.
And if you look in the credits, there are something
like 30 different animation studios that worked
as like different satellite studios for it. And
it's just like the, you know, to the entire infrastructure,
to put it in the words of the Colonel, like.
We're not interested in building things like
that anymore. Like the culture at large is not
interested in sinking that kind of money in something
that kind of hand drawn. And like if there is
an Akira that becomes, I don't know, another
version of a film or a series, you better believe
there's going to be a ridiculous amount of like.
ai art in it right like that's going to happen
yeah yeah exactly yeah i mean everything has
to be efficient now everything has to be efficient
and cheap i mean they're they're the thing is
like there are anime directors currently that
are still doing like incredibly impressive hand
-drawn stuff like uh like uh the guy did um um
your name what's his name Yeah, yeah, his movies
are beautiful. I mean, there are a bunch of these
guys right now. They really, really do incredibly
visually impressive stuff. But you're talking
about cinema, though. You know what I mean? And
cinematic stuff. There are great anime things
coming out still here and there. And the thing
is, there is like an infrastructure where they
can do some like very, very impressive, like
24 frames per second hand drawn, like delicate,
like rain hitting, you know, like it's just they
do do that to show off. But that's like those
are that is like the spectacle of that movie.
And that's like the guy that guy's thing. And
people who are into that are into that. But this
is not the movie that I mean, I guess your name
was like one of the most successful enemies in
like many, many years and whatnot. But it's not
it's not the same of like we're getting the entire
country behind this thing and putting all of
our resources into this. It's just kind of like,
well, they're now very good at this. And there
is an infrastructure that they still can use.
And, you know, five guys who still care about
it. It's like how there's no great infrastructure
for filmmaking anymore. But you get like on a
Paul Thomas Anderson set and you can do a thing.
I'm just saying, like, if you make a if you make
fifteen hundred episodes of one piece, the quality
just can't be there. No, you literally can't.
Time dictates that it cannot. Yeah. There, there
are, there are like theatrical animes that like,
sure. Oh, I'm sure. But like the, when it comes
to the series, absolutely. I guess like, like
my thing, it's like, I, as splendid as it is
to like, look at, like, I don't, there is, there
is a part of me that goes like, I don't, the
things that make it anime, the things that make
it only achievable in this format are not things
that I like find. I don't know. particularly
interesting i guess you know what i mean like
i mean i don't know like i think i think that
the things the things that i like i don't know
there there are a lot of things that only akira
could like that you could never film akira like
as a live action no i know but the ability of
like can you even really film it as an animated
picture though i guess is the question i mean
i think i think akira did but is it like It's
an adaptation. It's a different thing. Yeah,
it's a different thing. The manga itself, you're
talking about, like, adapting the manga as, like,
a full, like, what, series or something? Well,
I mean, I guess I mean to say that, like, anime
in the broader culture is not thought of as,
like, Akira or thought of as, like, you know,
the Demon Hunter X movie. It's thought of as,
like, 5 ,000 episodes of a series, you know what
I mean? Or, like, a super, super long serialized
thing that, like, people... fucking watch every
single solitary day and it's like to me that
that disposable thing like the disposable heart
at the very middle of like like manga culture
and anime culture is like the thing that i'm
just like oh we we have moved towards that as
a society like that's what we embrace that's
what we want this other thing will like i don't
know always be a boutique thing and like i don't
need to go see like i mean like i'll see the
masters make their movies but like there's not
going to be like some guy who gets to shoot a
shot doing this shit you know what i mean yeah
yeah i think that's very very rarely and i don't
know man the thing i think a lot of his context
too um like akira was made in 1988 like disney
was only just about to have the renaissance you
know they were only just about to release um
the little mermaid and in a lot of ways like
the little mermaid's beautiful it's cinematic
But even that movie, when you compare the way
that movie looks to Akira, it's so much more
simplistic in its art style. It's so much more
basic. I mean, Disney has actually... There's
only a few Disney movies that you can actually
compare to Akira at the level of quality and
how many in -betweener frames there are in the
animation and stuff like that. Akira... like
a part of anime that like if you like anime a
big part of accepting it is accepting that most
of it looks like garbage most of it is not very
well animated you have a few key frames maybe
a couple in betweeners you have sometimes the
backgrounds are painted relatively well but the
art style has to be so simple and a lot of like
cell drawn animation is kind of has that quality
to it And, yeah, like you said, so much of it
is serialized television, and you really just
do not have the budget. I mean, Evangelion is
not a really beautiful -looking show, you know?
And it gets worse as it goes on. Like, the animation
quality just, like, degrades as it goes on. Mike's
getting so upset. I mean, like, it's beautiful
in a different way, man, okay? No, it is. It's
beautiful. It's a low -budget beautiful. It's
a beautiful of, like, we're going to watch somebody
sit in a still frame for 30 seconds. Well, I
think that's the issue to me as, like... Sorry,
go. No, but I think part of the reason why, like,
anime took a long time to be accepted by Western
audiences is because, like, they saw Snow White
in the 30s. Right. And that was so beautifully
animated. They saw Pinocchio in the 40s. That's
one of the most beautifully animated films, like,
of all time. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean?
Like, they saw Sleeping Beauty in the 70s. That's
also just, like, go back and watch Sleeping Beauty,
man. It's, like, the most ridiculous fucking
thing. I've never seen Sleeping Beauty at all.
Wow. No, I mean, it's, it's, it, I mean, at least
something to be desired story -wise and whatever,
but just from a technical perspective, the animation
is there's, there's few animated movies that
look as beautiful as that. Um, but I just, I
just think Akira man is like on that level. Like
it's one of the most beautifully animated. Yeah.
I don't know. The level of technical proficiency
of it is like blows my mind. Like as a person
who used to animate too, like I used to do hand
-drawn animation when I was younger and, really
got into it for a long period of time. And just
like sometimes watching Akira gives me anxiety,
like thinking about just how much work is required
to like put those images on the screen. And yeah,
I think that's why something like Akira and Miyazaki
and like Satoshi Kan kind of like are the things
that needed to break through for Western audiences
because like... they had to look that good to
really make an impact to get Western audiences
who were used to these beautifully animated Disney
movies behind the whole thing. Even when I was
a kid, they had Toonami on Cartoon Network. They
would play all the Shonen Jump stuff. You would
have Dragon Ball Z and Gundam Wing and stuff
like that. Those shows never looked like... They're
always drawn beautifully. You know, the character
design's great. Like, background paintings look
good. But when it comes to the actual frame -by
-frame animation, they're, like, they're really
inferior to even shows like CatDog and, like,
Raka's Modern Life and whatever, you know? Yeah,
yeah, yeah. They don't look as beautifully animated.
Well, again, I would say if you're comparing
CatDog, like, I would say that Evangelion's more
beautiful. But I think what Evan's kind of saying
is like in terms of like, yeah, the fact that
like there are, there is cleaner work here being
done and there is like more technically. And
disposably, like the disposable shit is more
clearly done than the greatest shit that they're
coming out with. Correct. And it creates, it
creates a, it creates a truly cinematic vibe
that is like actually intoxicating. To see that
in Akira. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you watch Akira,
you really just feel like you're watching a movie.
It feels like the lighting and everything and
the camera work and just every aspect about it
is so cinematic. And it is competing with Western
movies in the way they are shot and the way they
are staged and stuff like that. I don't know.
It just has a level of quality that is mind -blowing
to me. And it came out in 1988. I think that's
really the thing. that sets Akira apart from
like the things that came before it and whatnot,
like that specifically. Yeah. That really changes
anime. And that's really what gets it to Western
audiences, I think. But like that thing specifically.
But then to talk about whether or not stuff like
that is happening now, like I kind of think like,
yeah, I know there are still very high, like
there are still big budget animations being made.
Most of them are made in computers. and have
a lot of computer assistance. But, I mean, I
saw the new Miyazaki, man. Like, I love Miyazaki.
I think his movies are also beautiful. But, like,
those are still movies that look far more stilted
in their animation than Akira does. You think
so? They're not nearly. I do think so, yeah.
I mean, you brought this up before, Mike. I think
it has a level of craft or whatever, but Kira
is in no way stilted. It's so fucking off the
wall all the time. It's buttery smooth, man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a buttery smooth cinematic
experience. Whereas... But it's always choosing
angles and it's always choosing reflections.
It's doing cinematic things that you wouldn't
think of to do in many Miyazaki, even beautiful
Miyazaki movies. I don't know. I feel a little
differently. I don't... It's not fair to compare
Miyazaki because I also think Miyazaki is...
incredibly cinematic like we're talking about
the two some of the best the two like most cinematic
like anime directors or whatever you know and
like satoshi kan as well like satoshi kan is
also another have you seen many of his movies
he's seen uh i've only seen perfect blue and
um and i well i watched paranoia agent i showed
him paranoid oh yeah like that's what i mean
like like oh yeah those are beautiful but i don't
even think i mean i guess i don't think of them
as anime i think of them as like I mean, like,
they are obviously animated in that style, but,
like, you know, it's so thematically far away
from, like, what I would imagine, you know. I
think that's probably why Mike gave it to me.
I guess the point I'm trying to make about the
level that Akira's at is that, like, it's actually
far above all the rest of the shit that's at
the top. You know what I mean? Like, it's, like,
Miyazaki, Satoshi Kan, just from, like, not from,
like, a story perspective, not from, like, a...
you know, any of these like things that actually
do matter, you know? Cause like, I don't think
Akira, I don't, I don't actually like Akira as
much as most Satoshi Kon movies probably. Right.
You know what I mean? Like I think Satoshi Kon
is like the best. But from like a sheer animation
perspective, this is like from a sheer technical
standpoint, I think Akira is like probably king.
There's also the things that Akira does that
we don't even notice that it does to advance
the art form and stuff. The choice to have more
keyframes is one, but there's the development
of new pigments that have never been seen before.
There's all sorts of weird, tiny developments.
nobody would notice or care like i would never
watch a care and be like oh that's such a great
purple that it's so that changes my whole it's
like no but like and also the fact that they
cared about the purple enough means they cared
about all the other things enough and it's all
about like exactly every single thing needs to
be like impressive to a nerd in his parents basement
who's talking about the making of the thing the
way that the schematics are the thing that's
important to animate nerds or whatever like does
it actually mean i i think that that was something
that was important about akira like just like
the schematics were important in necros like
the animation process is important in akira um
and like yeah i mean otomo was specifically trying
to do things that like like he was trying to
create He's making the job harder for himself
all the time. Yeah, just making it as hard as
possible. And it still didn't meet all of his
expectations. You know what I mean? Because of
Dr. Simmons. Because of Dr. Simmons. He's like,
I really, really wish Dr. Simmons had made the
cut. I can't wait. I know he's been working on
like a reboot for like a long time. With Dr.
Simmons. To do it again. Yeah, I want like frame
one. It's just like Dr. Simmons. Boom. It's like,
you know. So we know. We got the key players.
You're like, oh, my God, he's alive. Thank God.
That's how Kira 2 starts. Dr. Simmons, you're
still here. I hate the way I framed it because
I do, like, you know, to diminish the work of
Miyazaki is retarded. Like, Miyazaki's movies
are among the most beautiful animes ever created.
And they are beautifully animated and so well
drawn. And, like, it also has, like, the Disney
budget shit where they get, like, amazing voice
actors and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I love
Miyazaki. It was just to make a point about how
even Miyazaki doesn't make a film that is technically
at the level of Akira. And I don't think anyone
really has since. Or at least he doesn't make
the job as hard for himself. as Otomo intentionally
does. There are more shortcuts happening and
stuff like that. And I think the anime is so
good at taking shortcuts and working. This is
something that you brought up before, Mike, is
that they know exactly how many frames they need
to draw to make the thing work. You know what
I mean? Yeah. No more than that. Yeah, exactly.
No more than that. And if they do more, great.
Then they can make something that looks as beautiful
as the new Evangelion movies or whatever. or
Your Name or Weathering With You or whatever,
you know, like, or Miyazaki or Satoshi Kan, they
can get to that level. But even if they don't,
like, I do think that a lot of Evangelion is
beautifully animated, even though they're using
as little frames as possible. And I do think
that, like, Mushishi is beautiful. I do think
that, like, Kino's Journey is beautiful. Kino's
Journey, too. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think those
are beautiful looking shows. Like they, but yeah,
I don't know. It's just like a nerdy, it's a
nerdy perspective to be like, yeah, there could
be more in between frames and like the backgrounds
could be painted a little bit better. But that's
exactly the type of nerdy shit that anime people
would talk about. But also that cinema too, right?
To be like, if you have detail to. Yeah, cinema.
Yeah. Like if you have, if you have, you know,
if there's something you can do to make this
better, more authentic. more vibrant to bring
out your themes better you should do it and it's
yeah i mean i think most people won't pick up
on yeah yeah the purples in this yeah a couple
more a couple more key frames but they will they
you see the effort over time like you just see
it like it is a thing of quality yeah like there's
i don't know there's this one shot in like the
first time that kaneda and tetsuo actually fight
each other in the movie where it cuts back to
Kaneda and he's on the ground and it's a still
frame it's a reaction shot but it holds on him
for three seconds and it's a reused shot and
it's like sure yeah to me I always like I would
see things like that and immediately be like
this is I don't I don't know like almost like
cheating you know what I mean but it is like
it's obviously very obviously not and I don't
know like it kind of is I mean not really They
take those shortcuts so that they can achieve
the things in the movie that are truly mine.
The thing that takes my breath away to this day
is the shot where when Tetsuo and Kei first start
fighting and the giant cryogenic Akira ball just
rises out of the earth and all the pipes are
coming out of it and all the smoke is going through
the air. That is one of the most like breathtaking
fucking animation sequences ever. You know, it's
like, that's like 24 frames per second. Shit.
There's like slow motion shots. Many, many layers
happening too. It's not like it's 24 one frames.
It's like 24 times, like 30 frames. Like, yeah.
And the Olympic stadium fight is fucking insane.
Like watching kind of a fucking like drive on
pieces of the ground that are coming up under
him. It's like, That's the coolest shit in the
world. And it's unbelievably smooth. And Tetsuo's
morphing and stuff. As you said, Five Night at
Freddy's. I don't know. All that stuff is so
intricate. And then all the crowd scenes. Just
all the people. They're not just cutting and
pasting or using some kind of computer program
to procedurally generate a bunch of crowds. That
shit is all insane. It's really, really something.
But anyway, I could go on and on about just how
incredible I think the animation is. That's part
of it. The animation, the spectacle, the music.
For me, it's Disney level at their best and whatever.
I was saying, the last time I watched The Little
Mermaid, I realized, dude, this is... You were
saying people don't notice this stuff, but their
brains do. I think there's a reason why... The
Little Mermaid is the beginning of the Disney
Renaissance because it is easily one of the most
cinematic -looking Disney movies. And as the
Perfume Nationalist pointed out, it's the first
anime -influenced Disney movie, which is very
obvious when you watch it again. It's so perverted.
It's all about tentacles and getting a pussy.
Exactly. Like, it's... Everybody's sexy in it
and everybody's trying... Like, it is a total
anime movie. Even her dad is sexy. Like, every
single character is sexy the whole time. Yeah,
but, like, that's literally... Absolutely. Like,
they all are all the time in all the Disney movies.
They made the fuckable... That's the company
that made the fuckable fox. The eyes are far
bigger... They literally, like, birthed furs.
No, but the eyes are far bigger in Little Mermaid
than any previous Disney movies and the waists
are far thinner and whatever. They're starting
to do... Is that true? Yeah, yeah. If you look
at it, it is. This sounds like some... If you
look at it... Look at her face. She's a little
cuter than all the other ones because she looks
a little lit anime. So what's the last movie
before that? Is it like Fievel Goes West? Because
that would prove the point, I feel like. It's
like Oliver and Company. Yeah, it's Oliver and
Company, I think. The Little Mermaid is really
like, that's when a new CEO, Jeffrey Katzenberg,
took over the company. They overhauled shit.
They were really gunning for something that would
like... bring disney back from the dead like
for for two decades they were kind of like making
pretty mid movies with pretty bad animation and
even in the 60s dude like they were, like, already
reusing tons of, like, animations and tracing
over them to create, like, stuff. They still
do, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know what I mean?
They're doing Lilo and Stitch still. Yeah, I
mean, like, you can just see, like, oh, that's
the dance that the character does in Robin Hood
that they just reused for this or that. Fox and
the Hound. I mean, really, it's a lot of, like,
a lot of the stuff. Robin Hood reused tons of
animations from stuff in the 50s and whatever.
Robin Hood, yeah, there was stuff from... They
were tracing. They were tracing tons of stuff.
Way to go. And they were... Yeah. Reusing frames
and animation. Yeah, no, no. The Christopher
Robin in Winnie the Pooh is the same. There's
like an animated sequence of Christopher Robin
walking through the 100 -acre wood and throwing
a rock. That's exactly the same animation as
Mowgli. Oh, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
And stuff like that. So they were dealing with
an infrastructure that already existed anyway.
So Little Mermaid's a movie where, like, the
camera does 360 -degree movements around a character
where there's, like, actual, like, cinematic
lighting effects and mood and atmosphere and
all kinds of, like, I don't know. It's, like,
incredibly cinematic compared to what they've
been doing, like, the two decades before. And
even compared to, like, Sleeping Beauty. Like,
Sleeping Beauty is incredibly beautifully animated.
But it doesn't try to do all these wild cinematic
angles. There's no three -dimensional camera
movements. There's no Spielbergian camera movements.
Everything is very flat. Everything is very two
-dimensional. And that's kind of the way Disney
always was up until the 90s. And then they start
bringing the CGI elements in so that like...
Beauty and the Beast has the famous CGI -generated
ballroom so they can do these sweeping 360 -degree
camera movements around the characters. Because
you know it's really hard to animate a checkered
grid going in three... You know what I mean?
That was the easiest part of that thing to animate,
and that was the part they put in CGI. Well,
no, it's the chandelier. It's the walls. It's
a lot of elements. But it looks like shit. It
does. It looks like shit now. When you look at
it now, it looks clunky. No, you're right. The
CG. But Little Mermaid doesn't because it's all
hand -drawn. There's nothing happening in the
computer. They just had to draw the character
moving in 360 or whatever. I don't know. It's
super cool. But anyway, that was a long -winded
way of just being like, there is something about
actually... working that hard on something and
actually putting all that detail in that audiences
do respond to even if they don't really like
intellectually notice it you know like I remember
being a kid and really feeling like there wasn't
much of a difference between 101 Dalmatians and
The Lion King like it didn't matter to me but
like I think it does kind of matter like I don't
know I think there's a reason why The Lion King
was such a huge hit because it's just the level
of work and care put into that movie on every
level and all the details and all the songwriting
and all the writing. I don't know. I think that's
the level of care that goes to Akira and the
level of care that I just don't see in many films
in general these days, but especially animations.
But it's also probably why Akira has endured.
You don't get the title of potentially the best
animated movie of all time because everyone's
like, yo, the story's just really dope. It's
just... It looks and sounds so fucking good,
you cannot deny the quality of this thing. Just
look at it. Dude, if it came out today, you'd
be like, yeah, that's contemporary. You know
what I mean? It might not be as impressive or
something, but it wouldn't stand out as being
something cheap or whatever. Yeah, totally. Yeah,
that's state of the art. Or even dated. Nothing
dated about it at all, really. I mean, there's
things of its date and there's things that talk
about its date or whatever, but it plays as modern.
Yeah. And like that interview I was listening
to with Otomo, he talks about like, you know,
in 88 when it came out, and I think he did this
interview in like 93 or something like that.
So it's like, you know, The Lion King just came
out or something. He's starting to talk about
computers and technology changing animation.
And he has like a lot of positivity. for what
can be done in animation in the future because
of these technologies. And that hasn't aged well,
kind of looking at him talk about that. And just
like, nah, dude, you don't realize that at that
moment you were creating the high watermark.
You know what I mean? And that all this computer
technology and all this shit that you want to
start engaging with to make even better animated
movies, that hasn't really paid off quite like
he's talking about. Yeah, the future's always
bright until it gets here. That's so funny. Yeah.
Yeah, the other thing I really wanted to do this
week before this podcast but didn't was rewatch
Steam Boy. which I remember as being just rock
and boring. It's like his anime from 2000, right?
Yeah, from like 2005, I think, or something.
That's a dead zone for entertainment, period.
But I remember it as just being so boring and
slow, but I'm sure it's not. I'm sure there's
got to be something awesome about it. But I think
there's CG bullshit in that movie, right? I do
remember it being beautifully animated. And there's
CG stuff in it, yeah. Because I was right around
Last Exile and shit when that started happening.
Dude, CG stuff in anime just dates it so bad.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's really from like 2005
to like 2015 or whatever. I was saying this too
about like the difference between Fantasia and
Fantasia 2000. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, dude. That's
like a great example of like the promise of technology
just not paying off. Yep. Fantasia is also just
one of the most beautifully animated movies ever
made. And Fantasia 2000, by comparison, is like,
it's a travesty, dude. Well, it's one of those
things where, like, if you watch it and then
you show it to somebody and then you go, like,
do you know anyone who would actually want to
watch this? I can't think of a single person
who would be like, yes. Like, who the fuck was
that? Like, it's a tech demo that they turned
into a movie. Yeah, exactly. Maybe we weren't
meant to battle with that ultimate power. Yeah,
but then like one line later, he's like, but
we got to do it. We got to grab it. Let's do
it. Yeah, I think he says literally, he's like,
but we have no choice but to grasp it and put
it under our control. And it's like, oh, gossip.
It's like the power of a god. He's like, yeah,
no. Yeah, that's exactly it. That's why I really
don't understand why the colonel is like mad
at the scientist at the end when he didn't show
him. I don't get it either. I don't get it either.
Well, I mean, yeah, he keeps telling the scientist
like. go ahead and do it, but just make sure
you can keep, you know, an eye on it. And he's
like, but I can't keep an eye on it. It's like,
well, just keep an eye on it. All right. He comes
back. He's like, you mean to tell me that the
pattern, he's like the pattern. He's also wrong
about a bunch of shit. Did you, did you notice
in the, in the manga, like when. Akira is first
being birthed out of the cryo chamber or whatever.
The scientist is there. He's like, we need to
hit the stop button. He's like, don't hit that.
That's not Akira. And then like five minutes,
five pages later, they're like, oh, the alarm's
going off. Yeah, and then the dude freezes there
right in front of him. And he doesn't even say
I was wrong. He's just like, oh, all right. Well,
he never says he's wrong. But he's wrong a lot.
And then like there are a bunch of times in the
comics. In the first two books, he's only ever
wrong. The colonel as heroic character doesn't
exist really until book four. Sure, sure, yeah.
He's definitely just a jarhead. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, in the movie, what does he say in the
movie? He says, it's not my job to believe. I
think like a soldier. Well, he says it's not
my job to believe or not disbelieve. It's to
act or not act. Yep, that's it. Yeah. And it's
like, those are the two like central philosophies
in the movie, right? The scientific thing where
it's like, it's the think and not act and he
thinks his is completely the opposite. Yeah,
the scientist really isn't much of an actor.
He doesn't really do anything. He just like sits
around reading like... Well, the scientist is
a machine. The scientist is a piece of an object
in the room. And I love in the mangas that they
don't do in the movie because the character designer,
the first... uh scientist is so much better than
the other scientists they just keep them all
the way they kill the first scientist you mean
the first scientist who who freezes in the book
I just love how in the book there's like three
other scientists after that. But they're just
totally disposable and you don't give a fuck
about them because they're scientists. Obviously
you don't give a fuck about them. They're monsters.
You know what I mean? Obviously they're idiots
who care about fucking science. But also they're
the cause of this problem. They're the cause
of all the problems. They're fucking scientists.
But their hypothetical idea making is what created
this crisis. They don't think to act except theoretically.
And then once their theories bloom into something
real, they completely divorce themselves from
it. And it's like, yeah, like that's why the
colonel fucking hates the scientists because
he feels like he's cleaning up their messes constantly.
And in the world of Akira, he is. It's just like
they put out a thing and then you're like, what
do I need to do to fix this? And they're like,
turn it off and turn it back on. And it's like,
what are you... What are you talking about? What
did you make that I'm fixing and now you're anonymously
not... No, this is evil. This is a real evil.
These people should be taken out. Every time
I need to reset my computer, let's kill the scientist.
Let's get them out of here and reset and get
a new one in. That's the way to fix... They just
told me that was the way to fix the problem and
they are the problem, so fix it. And I love that
Akira... I love that Otomo treats them that way.
It's like... One's gone. Let's get another one
in here. General needs another one. General's
not replaceable. General stays all the way. Scientists,
they're human. They're functionaries. They're
nothing. They're nothing. Just like in the real
world. No, they're nothing. Yeah. I mean, he
basically, I mean, I guess it's a scientific
operation, but it's a military operation. Like,
he has complete... control over them and he's
like he represents them he is the one who has
to go to the supreme council and ask for more
money i love how he doesn't say anything real
to the council ever like that every time we see
like the politics playing out it's just people
lying to each other it's not even them like being
like how do we twist this in the right way it's
like no this didn't happen in the movie sometimes
they're yelling at each other about the insults
they say right Well, they are just fighting that
whole time in that scene. They're just like fighting
and no one's listening to one another. They're
all trying to point at whose fault it is. Yeah,
they're all just trying to point at whose fault
it is and whatever. In the manga, they're literally
like, they don't even know what's happening because
the general's just like, that's not happening.
No, it was a malfunction. They're like, obviously
it wasn't a malfunction. He's like, well, it
was a malfunction. So I'll see you guys later.
The chickens do eventually come home to roost
when they try and arrest him. But then with literally
one line, he's like. think about it you're puppets
and they're like you know what maybe we'd like
you to be the puppeteer dude i i love the i love
that scene where he's like the coup it's the
coup right like i love the whole military coup
idea where he's just like you know what i'm not
fucking listening to these guys and you know
what none of you should either because you're
all puppets of corrupt corrupt politicians and
capitalists. He specifically says corrupt politicians
and capitalists. The two. He's like, shoot him.
He just orders this man to shoot that guy. In
the comics, in the manga, when he says that,
the guy's like, dude, thank God, because we've
all been waiting for you to do this. We're all
ready to go, but people have been expecting you
to do this. It's needed to happen for a long
time. I love that. Because essentially we're
talking about fascism, right? We're just talking
about dictatorship and how Japan is just calling
out for this military dictatorship to fix it.
It's fascinating, I think. Because Otomo's politics
in this are not... There's no... Oh, there is
a good guy. There's one good guy, but everybody
else is corrupted, I think. There's not a good
left and a good right or whatever. The only good
guy in the movie is fucking Kaneda. Yeah, yeah.
Kaneda's the only good guy. I really like the
colonel. Well, again, the colonel is the other
good guy, but he is like the... He's not an ideologue.
He's like Hitler was a good guy. You know what
I mean? He's like the guy who's... It's like
the worst possible guy is like the good guy.
You know what I mean? No, you got to go one further
than that, I think. What, the emperor was a good
guy? Just explain what that... What do you mean?
It's like, I'm just saying, like, he's, like,
the colonel represents the most, like, offensive
possible politics. He's just, like, taking over
the country through, like, a military dictatorship.
He is the end of one spectrum, you mean. Like,
he is fascism. Yeah, he is. Like, politically,
he is just fascism. But, like, we understand
him and his perspective. And that, like, yeah,
somebody needed to do this or whatever. But.
On paper, he is the worst guy. We all understand
that the military leader that just decides to
hold a gun up to the leaders and then take over
and say, everybody report to me. And it doesn't
matter that everything I'm saying is contradictory.
Is that fascism if it's not part of a political
system? Is that just like military totalitarianism?
What is that actually? I don't know, whatever.
I mean, if he's controlling, like, the, you know,
flow of information to the people and whatever,
and, like, he's got total totalitarian control
over the entire government through, like, a military
dictatorship. Like, if you want to call that
something other than fascism, whatever. Yeah,
but that's fascism. Yeah, it's like... All I
know is that, like, in that moment, I'm rooting
for him. Oh, I'm rooting for him, too. After,
like, halfway through book two, I'm rooting for
him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it's interesting
that Otomo puts a guy who is basically just,
like, the worst, like a Hitler or something.
Like a guy who's just, like... An empty vessel.
Someone who does not believe what he says and
does not say what he believes. Well... I think
he does. No, he doesn't. He literally... It's
not on him to believe or disbelieve. It's just
to act or not act. Yeah, but he's a... It doesn't
matter. In his... in his role as, like, acting
whatever, as authority, he's constantly undermining
himself. And he's lying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
He's, like, not... We're not looking for, like,
a nice, like, honest person to take over this
or whatever. They're just calling out for fascists.
Yeah, we're looking for fascists. Yeah, exactly.
And that's what I think is interesting. He chose
to do, we are just calling out for a fascist,
and thank God there's a fascist here to take
care of us. And in the end, like... I don't think
it comes down on the side of like the general
was right. I think that like my, my take on,
on essentially like that we're talking about
these other daddies of the capitalists or the
military or the Americans who's going to come
in and save us or whatever. But like in the end,
it's like, it's punk rock. It's just kind of
does the only, the only pure one. And that's
because he's like, yo, fuck you. Like that's
like, oh, yeah, fuck all of this. I just want
to fuck girls and drive my motorcycle. But that's
the ultimate hyper individualism, right? That
like he's like, I'm single handedly going to
reject, you know, global government that literally
has helicopters that they've come in to do shit
with. I'm going to put a little sign on my door
that says do not disturb. And then I'm going
to drive into the horizon with my girlfriend
and my ghost homies because they're not really
dead if I pretend they're not dead. And it's
like, oh, well, like. That technocracy that you
abandoned will be back in 30 years again, and
you'll be too old to do anything about it. But
it doesn't matter because, like, you got yours.
Kaneda's going to be okay. It's Gen X, man. It
works for now. Like, you know what I mean? It's
like, fuck all this, whatever. It's not about
building a new, better whatever. It's about just,
like, it's all fucked up. It's about being in
charge of a pile of rubble. Yes. Well, as long
as it's yours. Yeah. And I love the end of the
manga where they kick them out and they're just
like, this is our territory. Yeah, it's great.
Because it does feel like, yeah, this is what
Japan feels. You know what I mean? This is a
national desire that's being expressed through
this character. especially when you know america's
putting their boot on them in the 80s and whatnot
and they're becoming america and it's becoming
them and it's all this history well they're seeing
themselves be westernized and like part of the
the message of akira and like canada and like
the idea of like the the motorcycle gang is just
to say like we don't necessarily know what we
want but we don't want this shit we don't want
like this capitalist bullshit you know what i
mean like And that's it. It's a rejection of,
like, yeah. Which to me is, like, not that different
from River's Edge. You know what I mean? Or all
the great punk rock, like, what's it called?
Out of the Blue. You know what I mean? I haven't
seen Out of the Blue yet. Lots of the great punk
rock just fuck everything movies. Or it's like...
Repo Man. Repo Man, you know? I just saw... Rather
lie on my feet than live on my knees. I saw Greed
last night. You guys ever see Greed? No. Greed
from 1924. Eric von Stroheim's Greed. Okay. I
went to the Glenn Ford mansion and saw it on
16 millimeters. Sick. And it fucking, it's a
story about a dude who marries some guy's, you
know, wife. And then that guy's wife, who he
gave away willingly, then wins the lottery for
$5 ,000. So then the guy who gave his wife away
is like mad the whole fucking time. And then
the money ruins, you know, the life of the husband
and wife. And the husband goes out to the desert
to avoid people who are trying to get his money.
And he has the $5 ,000 with him. And then the
guy who sold his wife to him shows up with a
gun and is like, give me your money. And he's
like, my money's all on the donkey along with
my water. So he shoots the donkey to stop it
and accidentally shoots a hole in the canteen.
And they both die out in the desert with their
pile of money. When they're sitting out there
getting ready to die, The husband who had the
money is just like, I know we're going to die,
but I want to hold on to it anyway. And it's
just like, it's that idea of like, I don't give
a fuck if it's completely valueless. It's mine.
It felt like slightly, slightly. Do you understand
how important that concept is? Mine. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. I don't know. Yeah, watch Greed, 1924,
silent movie. Fuck yeah. Yeah, it's all right.
Will do. It's like the great lost movie. It's
like originally nine hours long, but MGM threw
all of it away. So now it's only two and a half
hours long. Wow. Totally worth watching, though.
It's really fucking mean. I'm sorry. I didn't
mean to hijack the podcast. I like a nice mean
movie. This one's been going all over the place.
Since we've come to another pause, can I pee
again? I mean, are we pausing or are we ending
this thing? I've got another little thing I'd
like to get into after a pause. Okay. Would you
want to not pause, obviously, just like step
away? Step away. Just leave everything rolling?
Sure. All right. I'm trying to have a cigarette,
too, if that's cool. Oh, okay. Just leave it
rolling for a sec. Is that all right? I just
don't have anything to do. All right. I'll be
quick. I'll be quick. I'll be quick. I'll be
quick. I wish I could smoke a cigarette. We're
back. All right, we're back. All right, we're
back. So I guess the one subject that I wanted
to bring up that we haven't kind of got to yet
is just sort of like, I guess like the first
time viewing of Akira experience. So most people
watch Akira without reading the mangas, obviously.
Like we gave Josh the very specific special experience
of reading the mangas first and then watching
the movies, which like most American audiences
don't have. I don't have that experience. You
don't have that experience. I like don't know
anybody who actually got to read the manga first
before seeing the movie the way that like original
Japanese audiences would. So I think that like
a lot of American anime viewers. have the experience
of like oh i want to watch an anime here's the
one like or maybe not so much anymore now there's
like we talked about the infrastructure of so
many animes and people are just going to watch
the one their friend i do think that we have
like we do still have a hierarchy or like a like
a type of society that will go to like the hierarchical
list on reddit or whatever and fucking akira
is always at the right so i think i think people
who are into film like will will be looking at
their good point and and they'll be like oh i
want to watch a anime film what anime film is
worth watching and they'll see akira And they
just put on this thing with no context. And I
think that that can be an extremely irritating
experience for people. That can really turn them
off to anime. I think there's many things about
anime that can really turn people off in general.
We haven't even talked about it. One of the great
anecdotes is the first... I don't even know the
actual fucking anecdote. But I'm going to give
you a summarized anecdote. But one of the first
times they imported anime to the United States...
I don't remember what film festival it was or
what happened. However, there was a double bill
where they put a double bill of My Neighbor Totoro
and Arutsuka Doji Legend of the Overfiend in
this film festival. That's not true. It is true.
Dan Santelli explained this to me. But this was
one of the first times America was introduced
to anime. It was a double bill of these two anime
features, My Neighbor Totoro, obviously the sweet
Miyazaki movie for children, and Arutsuka. Doji
Legend of the Overfiend, the movie where some
serial killer wrote a thing about using Hitler's
stuff to create a new Satan that gets all of
his powers by tentacle raping women from both
sides until they explode and then he can become
the new Satan. Famously insane movie. So it's
like the movie that popularized the tentacle
porn genre and stuff. It is that thing. So part
of, you know, anime in America is this thing
of, like, it has a certain connotation to it
of, like, this is for perverts, this is for weirdos,
this is for whatever. And that played for a while
as the vibe of anime. Now it's become more sort
of ubiquitous. But I think that a lot of that
reputation comes from that situation, but also
from people just, like, going to movies like
Akira out of context, just being like, what is
this? Let's throw this on. It's going to be crazy.
And then what the fuck even is this movie? Like,
out of context, this movie is so bad at explaining
itself and, like, so hard to follow. There are
all these characters whose names, like, I guess
you do get their names because they scream each
other's names at each other all the time. But
there are so many characters. A few do and a
few do not. Yeah. And they all look very similar
and they're all doing stuff in a world that you
have no understanding of. And it's like about
the politics of that world without any introduction
to how the politics work, what the countries
are, what like, I mean, and the whole thing is
it's trying to keep you in the dark about what
Akira is and what these things, but like, it
doesn't give you anything to latch onto at all.
Like there is, there's no like. I was watching
it with my girlfriend this past week and like
the opening scene, there's the guys on the motorcycle
and then it cuts to Takashi and Ryu's lookalike
running from the cops and then getting shot up
or whatever. And then it cuts back to the motorcycles.
She's just like, wait, what happened to the kid?
Where's the motorcycles? What's happening? It's
like, no, those are two different scenes with
two different characters. Like it's not. It's
not easy at all to pick up on. And then as the
movie goes on, it doesn't get any easier. And
then when it gets to the explanation of what's
actually going on, it's things like roads and
highways. They build things. And it's amoebas.
And it's like it doesn't help you at all. And
then in the end, it's still just like a big exploding
thing of like, eh, whatever the fuck. It's he's
in another world. it's over someday we might
be able to because it's already begun there's
nothing like and i showing this to my girlfriend
she was like she was very irritated very very
quick but they're like but as like but i was
like oh no all right well this is this character
and this is this thing they're doing this and
it's about by the time we got about halfway through
i was like i'm not explaining this anymore You're
not going to get it. It's fine. It's vibes and
it's things and it's cool because it's animation.
And I feel like that's probably what most people
get out of this movie is what she got out except
that she was annoyed by it. But they were probably
like... oh this is a little advanced for me this
is cool what I'm not because that's how I watched
it right like as a teenager it's just kind of
like oh I don't really get what's going on but
this is kind of it's very adult and interesting
and cool and weird and there's drugs and there's
sex and there's I mean not a lot of sex but there's
boobs at least for a second so it's very adult
And like having that be a cartoon at the same
time, that on its own is enough. It's like just
just like chocolate and salt or something like
a chocolate covered pretzel, chocolatey thing
and salty thing together. That's a perfect combination.
That's all you need. That itself is enough to
get through. It's just a vibe. It's just a flavor.
And that's it. But like, I think that's. That's
like a failing of the movie. You know what I
mean? It's like what we're talking about is like
it's a mistranslation that like creates this
like very weird vibe that like I kind of now
watching it think is very cool. Like I think
that watching this movie where it's like, oh,
we don't have any context. Oh, there's these
motorcycles and whatever. And every single scene
is just another spectacle of some sort of crazy
whatever. I totally understand people finding
this, like, impossible to watch and, like, totally
unsatisfying and, like, not even fun. Like, I
could see, like. Did you, like, give her any,
did you, like, bribe her at all? No, I just,
I was, like, because I was, like, I want to see
how much this pisses her off, basically. So after
I read the books, I, like, while I was reading
them, I was, you know, telling my wife about
them, you know, because I'm a codependent person.
And afterwards. you know i was like hey do you
want to watch do you want to watch the movie
with me and you know so she knows like okay so
this kid's gonna show up at some point and uh
shit's gonna happen and like we're watching the
movie and we're enjoying it and i went to like
pause it at one point to like pee and it's like
an hour and 20 minutes in and they're like in
the sewer and i'm like man this is not like we're
not i know we're not going because all mike would
say is just like I can't wait for you to watch
it. I can't wait for you. I was like, so Akira
is going to be different in the movie, right,
Mike? And he's like, just watch it. And then
when you're expecting a little boy who like is
going to like wreak a little bit of havoc and
then like they open, they open the chest and
it is pieces of what was once Akira. My wife,
I think, was actually pissed. Like, I think she
was actually mad. Like, I think she was actually
like, I want, I want the kid I was promised.
I want there to have been like a big bad weapon
here. Like, and I wasn't, I wasn't really, but
I just, if you had read the books and gotten
to even that point, like you're way past where
you would have met Akira, but like way past even
when like Tokyo would have been. effectively
bombed the second time and you don't get any
of that in the film like it's all this big build
up to yeah a chest opening and it's just like
there's hey you know that kid you like well here
he is it was so I don't know I wasn't disappointed
by it but my wife found it like totally confusing
and I mean probably because I was not a very
good interpreter but like also because I was
like I can't wait to see the kid And he just,
we didn't get them. Yeah. I think that's, I think
that's part of the thing that's awesome too,
is like, yeah, the Western audiences don't get
that. There's no subversion there of the thing
because it's just called Akira. We don't know
what Akira is. And then in the end, it turns
out to be nothing kind of thing. But it's like,
dude, the whole thing is like, this is. the book
Akira about this character Akira and whatever.
And this is the movie of Akira where there's
no Akira. Like it is subverting the whole thing
and giving you like, it's an anti -climax. It's
like a, it's, it's taking the thing and changing
it completely into like, we're not going to give
you the thing that you want. And I think that
what's interesting is that in the end, it doesn't
really change anything. Like it does still give
you the thing. Like he does eventually reset
everything in the spiritual. He doesn't come
to the real realm necessarily, but he's there.
You know, when they're praying at the altar,
he appears. Yeah, yeah. But like, and yeah, you
don't really need Akira in the movie version
because like, what are you just going to have?
Yeah, he could be a bunch of things in tubes
or he could be a silent child and it doesn't
really make any difference. But it is just this
big build up to this moment that then doesn't
do anything. I don't know. I think like there
is a level of menace to the kid, right? You know,
like. It's another Western trope, but he's like
a Damien. He's an evil kid. Yeah, yeah. He's
sitting on a throne. He can't control his emotions
and his petulance means punishment for his enemies.
And I think when you're expecting that and what
you get instead is a troll job. There's no God.
It is. Yeah. Yes. It is. I think you're trying
to say something, right? Like as the author,
you're kind of trying to say. I don't, I genuinely,
I do not know, but you gotta be saying something.
It's so funny because like when I, you know,
initially saw the movie and that reveal happened,
not reading the manga, I was like that fucking
kicks ass. Yeah, no, totally. Like, I was just
like, that is such a great choice. I love that.
And then when I read the manga, I found Akira
to be very superfluous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just
kind of felt like he doesn't actually need to
be. He just sits around. He doesn't do much.
There is that menace. There is that cool vibe
of just no one having any clue how to deal with
him or how they should approach him or what he's
capable of or what will trigger him or any of
these things. Tetsuo is obviously the character
that more people are afraid of. or whatever but
like there is this like handling uh with kids
gloves thing around akira he seems just like
they can literally just like take akira by like
the shirt and drag him wherever they want him
to go yeah let's pick him up he's it's not really
like he doesn't ever express malice he doesn't
express any emotions at all really he doesn't
hurt anybody or attack anybody for doing anything
like yeah it's just like for tetsuo Except for
Tetsuo. He attacks him mentally in like one or
two scenes that are awesome in the manga. I love
how Tetsuo just like starts to get weird and
then all of a sudden he's just like experiencing
his childhood and stuff. And it's like, wait,
how did we get here? And then he's like, oh no,
I was seeing into his soul or he was sawing into
mine. And I think we get that. We get that a
little bit in the movie when it's Akira. Akira
like... He's like, I don't know who that is.
Yeah, and when Tetsuo is wandering through the
fucking city and they're saying like, akira did
this thing and he it's him you know what i mean
like the transference of akira to tetsuo is like
yeah you know god akira they're waving the flag
or whatever and they're talking about him yeah
yeah it's funny because like i did see the movie
first and yeah i did want to know your opinion
josh and just like it's cool that you did enjoy
that and i don't know like there are things missing
from the movie obviously a lot of stuff but in
the end i really feel like the movie does a great
job at like telling the same story in a much
more concise way and like crystallizing the themes
like really really like hitting hard on the things
that seem thematically important and it's like
in an english translation it can come across
as like clunky or whatever but when you understand
that like it's the distillation of a 2000 page
thing that is relatively philosophically complex
you know and it does it like with unbelievable
style in two hours and fucking 10 minutes. It's,
that's pretty crazy. Yeah. And it, but it, but
it actually does it like it actually does capture
all of that. So it doesn't like, even though
it's adapting it weirdly, it's, it does it in
a way that eliminates so many things that just
like don't need to be there at all to make the
statement that it's making. But I do think that
the big sort of missing part from the manga to
the movie is basically the cults and the religion
sort of aspect of the whole thing. I guess there's
more of the Esper stuff or whatever, but like
the cults and religion stuff. Yeah, it's more
of the culture, religion, and mythological and
sociopolitical stuff. I mean, well, this is the
thing. Josh, watching the movie, I'm sure you
didn't feel incredibly lost and confused because
the book does a really great job at explaining
the world. And all the different factions and
all the various relationships and all this kind
of stuff that like it imprints onto the movie
in a very like one -to -one way. Yeah. And so
you don't need to know who these guys are when
they're on the, you know, when they're fighting
a bunch of guys in clown costumes for no reason.
It's like all of a sudden there's a guy who's
dressed like a clown that they're fighting. It's
like, that's just normal in this world. It's
like, what? No. What? Why? And I mean, the manga
essentially tells its own story twice, right?
Like it, You get an assassinated child that leads
to the grief of the world effectively. And then
you get an assassinated child that leads to the
grief of the world again. And it's all like what
we're doing in the meantime is stasis, not trying
to solve a problem, trying to explain to ourselves
what we're going through. And I think that's
the thing that we were talking about earlier.
The beauty of the ending is that in both the
manga and the movie, they say like everyone's
gone. And it's like, what, what they're saying
there is like the cycle doesn't repeat anymore.
Like there's a little hint that maybe it will
again, but like for the first time, since we've.
Picked up this story. Like. There's at least
a moment of respite. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's
this. There's the. Like. Especially the. The
manga's ending man. Just like that moment. Just
like. That they have this new ordinary world.
It's just like. They at least have hope. Yeah.
Yes. For now. Like for today even. Like. The
UN's gonna come back. Like. Yeah. Like the colonel's
like. I can't fight anymore. Because I know I
will lose. But like. You guys have fight. Continue
to believe. It's like. That's so. Yeah. That's
so like. A generation talking to the next generation.
Yes. It is. It's the best. The impression I get
is that things do just continue and go through
cycles. I think right now there's this new rebellion
and this new movement to create a new world and
all that kind of stuff, but then that becomes
the establishment. I mean, even what Nezu is
describing to Ryu in the movie when they're walking
on the pathway and he's talking about Neo -Tokyo
being an overripe fruit. or whatever, and the
seeds will fall and create a new beginning or
whatever. And that just feels so Japanese, too,
and so psychedelic, just the idea that everything
moves in cycles and seasons, that there's death
and rebirth and death and rebirth again, and
that there are these evolutions that happen,
but really, fundamentally, everything's the same
as it's always been through all time. It just
kind of takes on new shapes and complexities.
Like the amoeba. I guess I would say, like, the
only thing is, like, at least in the book, Tetsuo
fucking explodes all of the nuclear weapons.
Remember, he sets off, like, all the nuclear
weapons worldwide. And it's, like, the idea that,
like, well, with them gone and all the weapons
gone, it's like, we'll be okay for now. But,
like, of course, we will build new weapons. You
know what I mean? Like, that will happen. Yeah.
Especially now that there's this big, like, they
come in and try to, like, they try to be the
cleanup crew, but then these punks show up and
they're like, fuck off. And they're like, you
think they're really going to, like, not come
back? Exactly. It's just like, nah, dude, like,
we're the bigger nation state. We're the bigger
power. Like, they're not going to, like, get
their scrappy shit together to build new nuclear
bombs or anything anytime soon. It's the same
thing that kind of is doing in the opening scene.
When the fucking, you know, the cops, they smash
his head down on the floor and he's like, fuck
you, man. I'm just looking at my friend, whatever.
It's like, you know. And he does it two scenes
later, right? After the dude's like, discipline,
discipline. He's like, fuck you, man. And it's
like, yeah, he's just doing the same thing in
the end. He's morally pure. And in the end, yeah,
he's just still like, yeah, fuck the UN too,
man. He's like, I'm the only one, man. He's like,
actually, like, and it's the best, man. He's
such a punk rock. Yeah, he's a fucking punk.
I mean, I said this in my Letterboxd review or
whatever, but my favorite line from the movie,
at least in the English translation, is, Hetsuo's
our friend. If someone's going to kill him, it
should be us. Yeah, hell yeah. It's just like,
so fucking punk rock, dude. I love it. Also,
I've said to Mike from the beginning, my favorite
line in either the book or the movie is, in the
very first book, when... Kaneda is trying to
get to figure out what's in the pills that Tetsuo
has. He goes to this woman at the infirmary that
he's clearly hooked up with. And she says to
him, by the way, I might be pregnant. And he
says, great. Can I watch you have it? Yes. Can
I watch you have it? And it's to me, it's just
like it is. It's Kaneda's great intellectual
generosity and curiosity. But also his swashbuckling
nature just totally crystals out. He's not saying,
fuck you, get rid of it. No. He's saying like,
oh, you're free. I'm free. We're all free. That's
cool. Let me watch. Yeah, exactly. That's awesome.
I'm great. You're having fun. That sounds great
to me. May I watch? I love the noble jock. Yes.
Yeah, me too. I love that character. Also, did
you guys know that, like, there were motorcycle
gangs, like, in vogue from the 50s to, like,
the 80s in Japan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were
called the Bosuzoku. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't
know that. Yeah, it's a whole thing. Yeah. Bosuzoku.
Yeah. That's part of the imported Western shit
with, you know, bicycle gangs and... Easy rider,
man. Levi's jeans and... The Hell's Angels. Capitalism.
Yeah. It's just so cool to be Western. It is
so cool. The Hells Angels would have been cooler
if they were all 15 -year -olds, too, though.
That's true. Yeah, the youthful energy is a...
It's a big part of the statement, I think, there,
too. Yeah, it's a big part of the statement is
youthful, rebellious energy. Yep. that can actually
create change and disruption to the status quo.
Yeah, I mean, maybe not create change, but at
least disruption. Well, that does create change,
ultimately, just not necessarily... Like, Kaneda
doesn't have a plan, you know? Like, Tetsuo doesn't
have a plan, and I don't think Akira does either.
Who else doesn't have a plan? It's like everybody
else. I mean, I guess some people have plans,
but they don't understand what the plans are
even going towards anyway. The only person who's
kind of got a plan is Lady Miyako, I guess, who
can't do anything about the plan. Yeah, but I
guess it's, like, I guess that energy to act
and, like, just do things does change the world.
And then everyone else just has to respond to
that. You're either, like, acting and, like,
affecting things or you're just responding to
all that. Yeah. Isn't that kind of, like, the
problem with someone like Lady Miyako is that,
like, she is someone with immense knowledge but,
like, the inability to do anything about it.
Yeah, I think that's kind of you're talking about
this a little bit in our Oppenheimer episode
But I think that's kind of what happens at a
certain point with immense knowledge You realize
that you actually have no power and control.
If you're completely ignorant of things, you
have no power and control. But if you understand
things completely, then you understand that you
have no power and control. If you ever do the
Obama movie, I have to come back for it. Leave
the world behind the bad Julia Roberts, Ethan
Hawke Obama movie. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Wait, it's
the movie where Obama just says like... Oh, let
me be clear. I don't know if I don't know if
anyone's in charge. It is. It makes me so fucking
mad, man. Like, it's like I could talk about
it for three hours uninterrupted. It's oh, my
God. It is. Yeah. Goddamn. But yeah, it's yeah,
it's that kind of worldview writ large of like,
yeah, the terrifying thing of like, oh, actually,
maybe even the most powerful people are just
like protecting. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I think they
are, man. No, they definitely are. I think that's
why the idea of conspiracy is also so popular
in America, too, because I think we really want
to believe in this individualist idea that people
have control over their destinies. Yeah, we want
to believe that expertise can cause consequences
when it really can't. I mean, like, you just
think about everything going on today with, like,
AI and stuff. It's just, like, another part of
the same story of people just doing a bunch of
shit because they can and, like, really don't
care about the consequences or what kind of future
it'll actually bring. And they make all these
promises about what kind of future it will bring,
and then that just doesn't happen. You know,
just, like, same shit again and again. Like,
they literally have no crystal ball. They have
no idea. Except that then maybe they think they
can make money or something. I don't know. Like,
I guess if it's just about like brass tacks and
really basic mathematical equations, like if
I do this, then a stock price goes up and I can
cash out or whatever. But I just like, ultimately
it's like, yeah, they have no fucking clue what's
going to happen tomorrow. And like anything could
happen that disrupts the plan and whatever. And
they're just the scientists, man. They're the
scientists in Akira. And, like, they're completely
replaceable non -humans. Or they're the religious
people. People that have an idea of what's coming,
but an inability to change it. And it's, like...
The second coming. It's, like, Lady Miyako has
that, like, long speech to Tetsuo where she says,
like, men can't see past their nose or whatever.
And, like, she says to him, like, you don't understand,
like, you have the ability with just your mind
to, like... contain all of the power in the entire
world but then she says effectively like but
you have no idea how to do it you don't have
the imagination to unlock it and it's like the
wildest thing in the world is that like she's
the one saying that right because like she knows
she is all potential and like tetsuo is three
percent action and 97 potential and she can see
that too and it's like That's what happens when
you think, you know, you think about building
something, but then you never build it. That
gets back to the whole amoeba concept, too. Like
an amoeba is like like point zero zero zero zero
three percent action. And like the other all
the rest of its potential, like the potential
of what it could evolve to and what the future
could bring. Yes. The potential of humanity and
what they could do. like is vastly outnumbered
as the actual actions they can take today yep
and maybe that's just like always how it is or
something but unless there is some kind of breaking
point where like action does come up against
potential and there is like no potential left
and everything has to like go backwards or just
like reset or something i just think like with
our appetite for self -destruction like we will
find a way to destroy ourselves before we find
a time to like coalesce into something that really
works you know like sure it's just so much easier
to kill yourself I mean yeah like there does
seem to be a historical like stuff in history
to back that up maybe not history but like biology
and I guess you couldn't call it history talking
about the great extinctions or whatever but just
like all these moments in time where the earth
has reset and like things that have happened
that have, like, really set back all the evolutionary
timelines that have been going on for, like,
thousands or millions of years. Yeah, it isn't
linear. It's not like everything just evolves
and evolves and evolves and, like, reaches its
final potential. It always gets pushed back somehow
by something. Exactly. It's always in, you know,
transition. Yeah, it's like, you know. Yeah,
it's always in transition. Like a late -stage
tetsuo. Fits and starts. We'll never be the perfect
organism. We'll never be the predator. We'll
never be the predator. The perfect organism?
We're going predator over alien? Absolutely.
Whoever wins, we lose. Whoever wins, we lose.
Well, on that note... You say that's that, Mattress
Man? I'd say that's that.