See, I believe that all the mysteries of the
universe, all the answers to life's questions
can be found in a Spielberg film. I've been afraid for
all of my life. Why doesn’t somebody just shoot
me in the head? Right up until the day I knew
my life was ending. You look bad. No, man. You
smell bad. I'm pretty fucking far from Ok. Really, I
feel like I'm sharing a very- Look at my shit.
I had an affair.- Precious moment with you. There
are no nations. There are no peoples. Are you threatening
me, dick? You don't approve. Fake. Well, too
bad. Totally fake. Did it seem fake? You look
like a damn crackhead. When my best friend was
bitten in half in front of me? I found this cover story personally embarrassing
myself. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything but the little fishies. All
right, well, here we are. Welcome to season two
of Everything But The Little Fishies. Season
two. Welcome. Hell yeah. I'm Evan. And I'm Mike.
And today we're talking about Ready Player One
from 2018 and The Fablemans from 2022. Before
we get started, just some quick programming notes.
Every once in a while on this show, we will have
a guest on, and sometimes those guests call us
by different names. I will sometimes be called
Tony, and Mike will sometimes be called Lunchbox
or Lunchie. Honestly, I call him Lunchie quite
frequently on this show, too, even though I should
be calling him Mike. And we didn't ask for this.
It's not really, it wasn't a plan. But, you know,
sometimes, like our characters that exist in
the Oasis, you have different identities in different
places in different times. And sometimes they
stick with you, and they cross over, and there's
not really too much you can do about it. You
try to leave an old identity behind, and it sticks
around. Or you try to invent a new one, and whatever.
You know how it goes. Here we are, just so no
one gets confused moving forward. Totally, totally.
So you want to talk about Ready Player One? Yeah,
yeah, but I'd also like to further address some
of the criticism of Season 1. You know what I
mean? The huge amount of user feedback we've
gotten, or listener feedback we've gotten. I'd
kind of like to respond to some of it. Well,
basically, I was having a conversation with a
friend recently about a theory I have. that we're
going to get into later in this season about
another Spielberg movie, another Spielberg sort
of theory. And it kind of aligned with what a
lot of people had been saying about our Willy
Wonka and Tinder's List episode, where my friend
was kind of like, well, this sounds like a conspiracy
theory. And I didn't really know how to respond
at the time. But thinking about it later, I was
just kind of like, well, dude, what is a movie
other than like a conspiracy to hide the hand
that is controlling the whole conspiracy? You
know what I mean? In politics, like maybe thinking
about things in conspiracy theory terms is not
like the most intelligent way to go about things.
It may be, but it may not be. But in movies,
I think that thinking about it as a conspiracy
and having a conspiracy theory about it is kind
of like the way to kind of think about. a lot
of film analysis. Um, and I think that really
ties in with ready player one. I think ready
player one's a movie that a lot of people saw
and got like very little out of. And it's kind
of, you know, it's not one of the most respected
of Spielberg sort of masterpiece works, you know
what I mean? Um, it kind of came and went. And
even like when I heard about it in the first
place, I kind of had no interest in sort of seeing
it. Um, it didn't sound like a project that was,
you know, gonna I don't know. It felt like it
was cashing in on a certain thing that was going
on at the time. And it didn't feel like, oh,
this is an artist going about something. It felt
like some sort of capitalist cash -in sort of
thing. And when I finally saw the movie, I think
I was wrong about that. But that is totally the
impression that the whole sort of culture still
has about Ready Player One. It's just sort of
like, oh, it was a fun Spielberg cash -in bullshit
thing. And I think that's not correct. I mean,
that was my impression when I saw it. You saw
it and were like, oh, I was wrong. Because we
watched it together, and I had kind of built
up this impression about it, which was like,
yeah, I mean, I really want to watch it again.
I thought there was a lot that was good about
it, but it's also kind of just like this annoying
modern IP mashup thing. Right. I remember initially
seeing it in theaters and being pretty underwhelmed,
even though I really love, like, I am always
a big fan of Spielberg's camera work, his...
directorial abilities. I think like he always
creates a ride, like a really exciting aesthetic
experience that is almost, he's so good at doing
what he does that you don't notice how well made
the movie is unless you really pay attention.
Exactly. Exactly. And that I think is part of
the thing where I'm talking about the conspiracy
to hide the hand that is controlling everything.
You know what I mean? In a Spielberg movie, I
think that that hand is so hidden. uh, that people
just assume there's nothing going on sort of
beneath the surface. And I was guilty of that
for many years with Spielberg, but yeah, around
the time that you watched this movie, I had gone
back and rewatched all of Spielberg's earlier
movies. And that kind of was like, dude, he's
doing a lot more here than he's getting credit
for. Like all these movies are a lot more interesting
than the culture had like. the way the culture
sees this director is kind of somebody who just
makes spectacles for children and their fun,
you know, fairy tales or whatever. Um, but that's
kind of, you know, there's, there's no depth
to it. People don't think about it the way they
think about Tarkovsky or, you know, Kubrick or,
you know, these intellectual directors. Yeah.
But after, after going back and sort of watching
all of these again, I sort of was like, no, no,
no, there absolutely is that intellectual director
going on there. It's just like very hard to think
about that while you're being, seduced by giant
dinosaurs and all of the fun that's in Spielberg's
movies. And especially in Ready Player One, its
pretensions are incredibly distracting because
you're constantly like, that's from that movie,
that's from that movie. I mean, if you go to
the IMDb trivia, for instance, the IMDb trivia
is almost exclusively about what this movie references.
Oh, there's like Ninja Turtles in that one part.
And there's like a Marvin the Martian there.
And there's like, if you look closely, there's
the ship from 2001 A Space Odyssey in Ake's Garage
or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And shit
like that, where it's just kind of like, I think
because it is that sort of IP mashup thing, it
becomes incredible. Like all these sort of familiar
things, these things that have been all these
kind of super stimuluses to people for so many
years. all being crammed into this one movie.
It's so hard to watch the movie and not just
be like, oh, that's the DeLorean. Oh, that's
Canada's bike from Akira. Oh, that's the T -Rex.
Oh, that's King Kong. And not even the ones they
mention, but the movie is just like absolutely
riddled in every single frame with like an insane
amount of IPs and references. To the point where
you're just like, how'd they even fucking get
the rights to all this shit? Yeah, yeah. And
I think there's a whole other podcast about the
production of this movie and all of the deals
that were made and why Blade Runner wouldn't
work and all the things that they tried to do
and couldn't get covered. Rush songs that the
character has to play or whatever. Exactly, exactly.
A lot of that I think is probably very interesting
in a film business sort of way. But I think that's
really like something for another podcast. That's
something for a different type of podcast or
whatever. And like for a lot of these trivia,
like, you know, sections where this is fun, interesting
information. But I think a lot of it's beside
the point. Like, I don't think part of the point
that Spielberg's making has to do with the things
that he couldn't get or whatever. That's not
the conversation being had here. Um, he's working
with a format and then using what he kind of
has at his disposal to say something, um, and
talk about something. And in this case, I think
that we've already talked about a lot of it so
far as a lot of this has to do with IP, um, and
this specific type of fan culture, um, that existed
in like 2018 and really like 2012, um, when the,
you know, strip script got started and stuff.
And when the book was, when was the book written?
Um, so yeah, the book, the book was 2011 and
this was, 2011 was kind of the beginning of a
lot of this. Well, not really the beginning.
Like, you could go back, I don't know. You can
go back to Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back and
the, you know, IP conversation in that movie.
In fact, like, he'd go all the way back to Spielberg
when it comes to this type of blockbuster or
whatever. And I think that basically, like, Ready
Player One does. But we'll get there. I think
that a lot of the point is that this book specifically
in 2011 was this conversation about this specific
nerd culture and this fandom and like this reference
-y stuff. And I think that Spielberg adapting
that, like one would think the way that we did,
like, oh, he's adapting like this dumb bullshit
that's just like a love of reference culture.
You know what I mean? I think that's not what
it's doing. I think that that really is what
the book is doing. But I think the movie goes
very far out of its way to do things very differently
from the book. And the things that it changes,
I think, are like super informative as to like
what Spielberg's actually trying to do here.
And that's something very different than Ernest
Cline, the guy who wrote the book, was trying
to do. Ernest Cline's like a Spielberg fan and
stuff. You know what I mean? He's like a modern
nerd culture, you know, guy. And he wrote this
book. I mean, the book is basically a fantasy
fulfillment for nerd culture, where in the book,
Halliday is basically like a stand in for Ernest
Cline and Halliday's interests are Ernest Cline's
interests and whatever. And you get to kind of
see Ernest Cline like create this test wherein
like. The way to win is to just like be Ernest
Cline is just like to be a fan of all the things
he's a fan of and like know all about all of
his favorite things or whatever. And that's what
Halliday is doing, too, is he's like in the book,
like the the whole egg hunt, the whole like trial,
like the whole game is completely about Halliday
finding somebody who like is good at the same
video games that he's good at and likes the same
music that he likes and watches the same movies
that he watches. And not only that, but like
has an encyclopedic knowledge of them. So like
in the book, when, you know, they're testing
parts of all his knowledge or whatever in one
of the tests, like he has to go through and.
literally play as all of the characters in Monty
Python in the Holy Grail. And he has to say all
of the lines that the characters say when they
say it all in time and whatever. And you get
points for saying all the right things and stuff.
And that's how he wins a challenge is like by
just knowing that. movie beginning to end the
way that ernest klein does and loving it and
whatever and so he's rewarded by holiday and
like the people who read this book like loved
that too because there are these nerds and they
love these references and they get these references
and they want to be rewarded for getting these
references and it's a fantasy fulfillment for
rewarding them for like artistically collecting
data on these you know references and things
to you know this culture that they're so interested
in but i think that that's very different than
what the movie does You know what I mean? Yeah.
I mean, you could say that Halliday in the movie
is a stand in for Spielberg. Exactly. Exactly.
And I think that Spielberg is not somebody who
just, you know, is an Ernest Cline who just like
has done a whole career based on just referencing
other things. You know what I mean? Like Spielberg.
he's, he's taking from all the greats and whatever.
I mean, he's like lots of his stuff is referencing
directly like other movies. Many times people
don't notice that the way they do in the race
scene, he is drawing a direct connection between
his Tyrannosaurus Rex and King Kong. Totally.
And I think, I think like, I think it's really
interesting that nobody could beat Kong there.
Like, you know what I mean? Like in that opening
scene, Kong is King. Yeah. Yeah. And in that
opening scene, like it's full of all these references
and all this stuff and whatever. But Kong, in
the end, this big reference is the thing that
is constantly going to destroy everybody. If
they don't see the other references, they'll
at least see Kong. And that reference is the
downfall of that opening scene. Because to me,
I think what's interesting about the race is
that the race is talking about this dynamic.
In the book, it's all just about knowing these
things or whatever. But in the movie, Spielberg
changes the whole trial, the whole test. Instead
of him being really good at racing or knowing
all of these references or whatever, those are
actually something that are keeping people from
figuring out the test. You know what I mean?
In Spielberg's movie, these references are a
distraction. mm -hmm in fact like when parsifal
first sees um artemis's bike he says to h like
do you see what this is and he says oh yeah i
see it it's kind of this bike from akira and
he's like no no not the bike the person riding
it it's artemis like blah blah and like that
was that's like the first of these situations
in which like somebody's like looking at something
and what they see is the reference as opposed
to like the actual thing you know what i mean
and that reference is just like kind of a distraction
it's like no no like what's what he's trying
to get across is like this is artemis this is
the like the what's interesting here is not the
bike and like the reference and whatever. There's
like actually a person behind this and this person
has this history and this like anti -authoritarian
like, you know, channel or whatever. But knowing
the reference keeps you from seeing the person,
whatever. And similarly, like going through this
whole race and like trying to compete in this
way of like being really good at this game and
like knowing all these references and trying
to, you know, figure out something like that's,
that's all, that's all the trap. You know what
I mean? Yeah, and the entire idea of, like, existing
in an artificial world in which you have an avatar
is a total obfuscation of reality. Completely.
And what's actually behind things. A person might
show up as Goro or whatever, but they're not
Goro. Right. You look at them and be like, oh,
it's Goro, but that doesn't tell you anything
about who they are, what's behind it. I mean,
H even says, like, you know, she could be a dude
named Chuck living in her mother's basement.
You know, it's like. Right. It's like, this is
fake, and it's all a distraction from a very
real thing behind it. And the real thing behind
it is an incredibly depressing dystopian world,
whatever, that all these people are living in
poverty and just slavishly spending all their
time in this digital environment to not face
reality, right? Right, right. But like you were
saying, it's not about the reference, it's about
the person. That ultimately is, what leads parsable
to figuring out the first clue right it's like
oh wait holiday it's about understanding the
creator and his personal life and like what he
might have injected into his art that was like
meaningful or whatever um it involves him digging
back through holiday's past and finding some
memory of him having an argument with his coworker
about the future of their business and how it's
kind of gotten out of hand and become this really
powerful out of control thing that they didn't
predict and how he just wishes he could go back
to when it was more simple and all this stuff.
And this sort of like this poetic idea that the
creator is expressing that's meaningful to him
is what unlocks the first clue, like unlocks
the first realization that like, Oh, you just
go backwards like there's it's not about like
actually winning and doing the race it's about
like understanding this creator and finding a
back door because of it exactly exactly and that's
the thing is like when he goes backwards what
we see is the underpinnings of this level right
so like instead of like the movie that you're
watching, you're seeing the behind the scenes
and stuff, you know, it's, it's, you're seeing
the hand of the creator. Like you're seeing the
hidden hand, uh, in that opening scene when he's
driving backwards and you're seeing the things
coming up from below. And it's all about understanding
holiday. And that's, this is essentially like
an expression of auteur theory, right? Like where
it's like, in order to understand this piece
of art, the piece of art being this race or,
or holidays, you know, whole test, the whole
egg hunt. In order to understand that, in order
to like win it, it's not about sort of winning.
It's not about like these references and this
like understanding all of these like surface
sort of things. Like all of this is simulacra.
Like all of this is like a repetition of something
that like is surface level. And there's the thing
that's behind it isn't the same thing that it
was anymore either. Like, you know what I mean?
Like Kaneda's bike is like, it doesn't have the
same meaning. when it's being ridden by Artemis.
So like knowing that it's kind of, this bike
is like totally irrelevant. That's just like
a distract. Like, you know what I mean? The only
thing that's relevant is, is that, that creator
thing. As a side note, when he's going underneath
and like, you're seeing the hand and like all
the mechanics and stuff, especially like when
you see the T -Rex get lifted up or whatever,
it really reminds me of like, like if you've
ever been in universal studios, like when a ride
breaks down. totally totally and then like all
the lights turn on and you can just see like
all like the parts and like the behind the scenes
like rafters that workers walk on and stuff like
that and the whole sort of like fantasy is like
revealed to be a farce totally totally like they
do that on space mountain i'm pretty sure right
where they just like turn on the lights at one
point and then it's like what the fuck is this
and then they turn the lights off and it becomes
space man you're right they do that i don't know
if they do it anymore but i remember that was
a thing and that's such a it's such a weird meta
moment you know to like make you aware of the
farce of the thing yeah yeah that totally does
feel like that this scene like the going under
and like the thing is like it also feels like
a ride like this scene is kind of like a universal
ride like um yeah yeah that's that's spielberg
shit i mean he's He makes so much money from
Universal. He's got a ridiculous lifetime deal
for all of his properties. And yeah, tons of
his movies were turned into awesome, memorable
rides. Totally. But that really just speaks to
his impact on culture in general, which seeing
him as Halliday and stuff and this whole thing
where he puts his T -Rex in there and stuff like
that. Ready Player One seems to be Spielberg
deeply reckoning with his place in the culture.
Totally. Totally. And what he's wrought and the
fact that there wouldn't be this kind of like
Marvel Cinematic Universe and all this IP bullshit
if it wasn't for stuff like Jurassic Park in
the first place, like the Hollywood blockbuster.
Totally. And Star Wars and whatever, you know,
it's like these things were like, these are the
things that begun this trend. Well, this is better
for worse. This is one of the things that I think
is really, I mean. So, well, first of all, like,
there's very few Spielberg movie references in
Ready Player One at all. And, like, whether the
T -Rex actually is his T -Rex or not is, like,
up for debate. I did read that they reused the
exact model from the original, but, like, gave
it better textures. Cool. Cool. That's his iconic.
But there's no, like, the same roar and everything.
In the original script, there were, like, overt
E .T. references. There were overt, like, there
were all sorts of overt Spielberg references.
And when Spielberg got on the project, he demanded
they take all that out. Yeah, that makes sense.
So there are very few like direct references
to his sort of works. But that like he uses all
these other works as a stand in for his works.
You know what I mean? He's talking about that
culture and he's talking about himself. Well,
it's very Zemeckis heavy. Yeah. Yeah. Which is
essentially, you know, his boy. But yeah, but
I think I think you're I think you're right.
I think that a lot of this is him reckoning with
his place in the culture and this sort of IP.
you know, this like simulacra sort of society
in which like everything is a reference to something
else. Right. Where it's like signs pointing to
signs, pointing to things or whatever. And like
all, like the original is something that people
don't even really understand or care about anymore.
Um, or if they do care about it, they care about
it for the wrong reasons because of like all
sorts of, you know, referencey detail things
or whatever, or they, they care about Monty Python's
Holy grail so much that they can say every single
line from the whole movie or whatever. And it's
like, that's not, That's not what made a Monty
Python. You know what I mean? Those guys are
funny. You can't be Monty Python if you're the
type of person who just sits there and repeats
all of the lines from a Monty Python movie. You're
not going to create a new artist like that in
this sort of derivative society. I think that
one of the things that's really interesting is
that in Ready Player One, and it's been posed
as a criticism against the movie, but... that
in ready player one, there's like no new media
that this takes place in the future, but there's
no future thing. Like, you know what I mean?
There's no other, like every single thing in
the movie is a reference that we understand in
modern times. And like, why would there not be
a new Superman in 2020 or 25th? When is it? When
does it take place? It takes place in 2045. It
takes place in 2045. Okay. So the idea that in,
you know, the, 25 years between when this movie
came out and when this movie is supposed to take
place that there's no new media. Like that's
been said to be like, Oh, well, like that's obviously
a plot hole. Right. And I think, no, that's not
a plot hole. There's, there's no new media in
this movie because there's no new media being
made. And I think that if you look at it, it's
all just a simulacra reference of a reference.
Exactly. Exactly. And there, there are like nineties
and even two thousands references in this movie
or whatever, but the majority of, of all of these
pop culture references are from the eighties.
Um, There are, I mean, there's like Overwatch
characters, which is a Blizzard game from like
the 2010s and stuff. There's a few really modern
ones, but you're right. For the most part, it's
all of Halliday's interests are what mostly populate,
which is like he grew up in the 80s. like the
70s and 80s. He was like a kid in the 80s and
a teenager in the 90s. I think like his favorite
game is Goldeneye, right? Playing his odd job.
But I think part of the reason that it works,
that how they grew up in the 80s and whatever,
in this way of talking about Spielberg and, you
know, this modern movie culture, is that when
you think about what things you would put in
a movie as like cultural references that everybody
would know. the majority of them are from the
80s you know what i mean like they're not creating
grand like big new franchise things or whatever
that everybody's in on like there's you know
star wars or whatever that's based on something
from the 70s like there's there's like all of
these late 70s it's like basically the 80s yeah
yeah but it's not like these are the references
everyone would know because like one thing came
out in the 80s that everybody remembers it's
just because All of this pop culture stuff that
really fired off in the late 70s and 80s with
movies and video games just continues to be retreaded.
There's a new Jurassic Park movie coming out
next year or something. They don't stop making
these fucking things. They're all just drawing
from things from the 70s and 80s and 90s. From
this somewhat golden era of capitalist art, consumer
art. That was all about franchise and creating
the thing that would make lunchboxes and whatever.
Exactly. Exactly. But that's the thing is there's
creating the franchise, coming up with something
like that, that will sell lunchboxes and whatever
is one thing. And then just like using the one
that already exists to sell lunchboxes is another,
you know, and today, like we definitely use all
of these, you know. ip's that already exist intellectual
properties that you know these companies have
bought and they're reselling to us whether it's
you know comic books from the 20s or what but
this is an era of filmmaking and of culture in
general in which like these new things are not
being made um already because people are already
living in this sort of oasis in which like everybody's
in on a conversation that is referencing the
things that they're already interested in and
whatever and like there's so much personal feedback
that it doesn't develop i think and i think i
think a lot of this has to do with the political
and and you know a lot of this has to do with
the business side of things too basically i think
that if you look at the time that all of these
great franchises were created um there's a very
different sort of business and there were very
different sort of creatives involved whereas
now we don't have that and so those things aren't
being created You know what I mean? I think that
like a lot of this has to do with like Spielberg
and Lucas and all these guys that created all
this stuff. Like they were part of the whole
new Hollywood era in which like the auteurs were
actually trusted by the money men with like huge
budgets and huge amounts of freedom to do literally
whatever they wanted. Like just like totally
personal projects for like millions and millions
of dollars. And like. That's just not something
that happened after a certain point. And a lot
of that was because they figured out how to monetize
the blockbuster. And a lot of that is basically
because of Spielberg. Like this is Jaws comes
out and they kind of see, oh, OK, well, like
all we need to do to sell huge amounts of tickets
for like. you know, a full year or whatever is
just come out with like the type of movies you've
been coming out with for a hundred years. There's,
you know, just do a big creature picture, but
just do it, you know, a little bit more expensive.
You know what I mean? And just making a B movie.
Star Wars is really important too. And it comes
to the merchandising potential and like all that
stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. Cause yeah, just
make, make a big ass movie that like really just
makes tons of money. And then you just like,
reap it for all it's worth by making action figures
and video games and whatever, you know, just
create as many products based on this IP as possible.
And the thing is like, those were created in
the new Hollywood era though. Like those are
new Hollywood films. Like Jaws is not just like
a stupid, like bullshit creature picture. Like,
uh, that would come out later in the eighties.
You know what I mean? Like Jaws was something
that connected to the culture and all sorts of
Jaws 2. Like the reason that Jaws worked, like
has everything to do with Spielberg's touch and
like the way that he's interacting with the culture
of 1977. Like the fact that the money men couldn't
see that, like. And that the audiences couldn't
see that is part of the problem. I think that
people become fans of Jaws just because, oh,
it's a shark movie. And then they watch another
movie and they're like, oh, yeah, I like that
because it's like Jaws. And it's like, no, dude,
that's not. Jaws connected with wide audiences
because of all sorts of emotional realities that
it was touching on that nobody had sort of been
talking about and stuff. I don't really want
to get too into Jaws. We'll get into Jaws at
some point. Sure, yeah. I think that part of
the thing is that these were misinterpreted and
then corporatized by people like IOI and turned
into this sort of business and stuff. And Spielberg
is kind of talking about like at the I mean,
I think that what's interesting is this is kind
of the end of Spielberg's career. Like he's an
old guy now and he's kind of wondering about
like, well, what comes next? Like who is going
to carry on this legacy? Because like. there's
nobody now you know what i mean like if if holiday
dies like who's gonna take up the thing other
than ioi like we need to find someone and who
do you find like and if Spielberg's thinking
about that as, you know, a great director, like
who's going to be the next Spielberg. And I think
that in this movie, he's really trying to make
the point that like, he is not just a stupid
commercial director, that there is something
about these movies and these franchises and these
things that like requires a true auteur to create.
And in absence of those true auteurs, these things
will not be created basically. And they'll just
be sort of mined like by IOI until they don't,
they lose all meaning. destroy themselves. Um,
IOI was just such a perfect name for that company
for so many reasons. Yeah. Um, like for, for
one, it kind of looks like how it looks like
the circle between the two lines, which is kind
of like the Jacob's ladder symbol or whatever.
Yeah. And it's a Masonic symbol. Yeah. I don't
know. And just like 2001 feels really connected
to this movie and obviously Kubrick in general,
if you wanted to like focus on the shining sequence
for a minute, Yeah. Well, that's I mean, I think
I think we've kind of covered the first trial
or the first test, which like essentially was
very much about auteur theory or whatever. But
the second one, I think, is very much about what
we're talking about now is like thinking about
Spielberg specifically and like his legacy and
who he kind of is trying to connect him with.
And this is absolutely Kubrick like. I feel like
Spielberg is saying, like, Halliday and me, who
are the same person, are also Kubrick, who is
kind of the same person. You know what I mean?
It's kind of like Holy Trinity or something.
It's like the last scene in the bedroom. But
we'll get there. Yeah. And I think that... Kubrick
and Spielberg are not thought of as similar directors
at all in our sort of society. We've got like
all of these, you know, crazy conspiracy theories
about all of this depth to these Kubrick movies.
And there's very little out there about any depth
in Spielberg movies whatsoever. And I think that
Spielberg, by making this connection, is kind
of trying to be like, no, there's like there's
stuff in there, you know, like if you're looking
at the auteur and you're looking at the thing
like. there's actually stuff to be discovered
by the people who are looking for it. But this
is his conception of the Easter egg. And that's
the thing is the Easter egg in Ready Player One
is very different in the movie than in the book.
Because in the book, all of the Easter eggs are
essentially just like, oh, I got that reference.
Like that's a reference to that Rush album. That's
the Easter egg. And then you're rewarded for
knowing that. In Spielberg's version, the Easter
egg is something that reveals a hidden truth
inside. the game. You know what I mean? Like
there's, there's something about the Easter egg
that reveals that the rest of the game is not
what it appeared to be. The Easter egg is kind
of a hidden clue that clues you into what the
whole thing is talking about. Um, as opposed
to just like, uh, Oh, look at this. I got that.
I'm smart. I'm we're on the, we're the same.
I'm just like this guy, you know? Yeah. And it's
another situation where they have to go back
into his past and look at some memory. To find
something about his personal life. Yep. To find
out about this leap he didn't take. It turns
out Halliday ironically had no game. He couldn't
get laid. He couldn't make a connection with
another human being. And that was like a really
important part of his journey as hero, anti -hero,
whatever you want to call him. And, yeah, and
this whole, like, the creator that hates his
creation talking about the adaptation of the
book The Shining into the movie The Shining really
speaks with this whole Ernest Cline adaptation
thing as well. Right. Because basically, like...
King's hatred of The Shining is obviously because
Kubrick is attacking The Shining in that movie.
I think a lot of what The Shining is about is
if you're into ghost stories, you're fucking
stupid and probably an alcoholic who molests
your children. He hates the author of that book,
and that movie is about the author of that book
sucking so much. In some ways, yeah. I think
this has been covered pretty well by people like
Rob Ager. Collative learning and stuff. But like,
I think that Kubrick at a certain point, he like
takes the, the main character's car and crashes
it on the side of the road to like, show you
that he's throwing the book in the trash and
like doing whatever he wants with it and stuff.
He's very disrespectful. From the book. Yeah.
The car from the car that crashes is like a red
car from the book, but the car in the movie is
blue or something. Right. Right. But then you
see the red car from the book and it's destroyed
because the book is now. you know tossed in the
trash and we're doing whatever we want and talking
about something interesting instead of the stupid
bullshit that this guy wrote it's kind of the
the vibe of of the very very antagonistic movie
against his creator kind of like what we're talking
about with wonka and roald dahl yeah yeah absolutely
um and i think that specifically um that's what's
going on in this movie too i mean we talked about
Ernest Cline's sort of love of nerd culture and
referencing Spielberg and whatever. And I think
Spielberg is kind of like, look at this and be
like, oh man, look at this fucking worm who worships
me like this. I want to destroy him. You know
what I mean? It's kind of like, I don't want
to be associated with this thing going, but I
don't want this to be the guy that fucking takes
up the carries the fire. You know what I mean?
This is not the guy. And I need to make a whole
movie based on this guy's book about how this
is not the guy. And all of it's kind of about
he also helped pen the script. Ernest Cline and
Zach Penn wrote the script. Right. But I guess
you have to imagine that Spielberg was whispering
in their ears the whole time or something. Yeah.
I mean, so there's a really great interview to
make all those decisions that Zach Penn does
with Creative Screenwriting Magazine. And in
that interview, you really hear him talking around
his collaboration with Spielberg and stuff because
there are certain things that he can't say and
he's not allowed to talk about cut stuff. And
like Spielberg is very, you know. very secretive
about his process and you know, what he's trying
to get across. But Zach Penn also gets across
the idea that gets across the vibe that like,
he also didn't really know what Spielberg wanted
when he was doing this, that he kind of had to
figure out what Spielberg was not saying. Um,
a lot of the time where he's kind of like, Oh,
okay. So maybe this is kind of supposed to be
about this and whatever. And Spielberg would
come in and make big, just declarations or whatever.
And they'd be like, fuck, what? No, wait, okay,
I guess we have to do that now. How do we do
that? And his thing is kind of like, it seems
like Spielberg is just doing, you know, just
flying by the seat of his pants or whatever,
but you end up realizing there's a method to
his madness and stuff. So the writing process
very much seems to be a situation, much like,
you know, the collaboration with Kubrick and
Clark on 2001 and stuff, a collaboration of somebody
who is using the people who work for them like
tools. Like, you know what I mean? The way that,
you know, Kubrick is often criticized for using
actors as tools and whatever. And I would argue
using his writers as that sort of thing and being
antagonistic towards his source material, antagonistic
towards his writers, antagonistic towards his
actors, all those sorts of things. I think that
Spielberg is also doing a lot of that. And because
his movies are so seductive in a spectacle sort
of way, it's harder to see that. Whereas Kubrick's
movies are always so weird that you're kind of
always distanced in this sort of intellectual
way to kind of think about, oh, why is this so
weird? In a Spielberg movie, it's all so just
like smooth and just like feels so good that
you don't even think about how weird it is. You
know what I mean? That this is happening. Oh,
yeah. It's so weird. And like, did you notice
how erotic Ready Player One is subtly? Right.
Exactly. And I think that this brings us to like
in the Shining sequence, like. And Spielberg
came in one day and was like, we're going to
do zombies in The Shining. And like Ernest Cline
and Zach Penn were both like, no, dude, there's
no zombies in The Shining. And Spielberg was
like, no, we're doing it. And they're like, OK,
why? Like what? And then he's like, no, we're
going to do that. There's going to be a big swinging
axe. There's going to be the lady is going to
have a knife. And it was like, what are you fucking
talking about? And then they had to write this
thing. And it's like Spielberg had an idea here
and they had to figure it out. But he wasn't
willing to tell them like this is what this scene
is about. However, all of these choices do point
towards a hidden hand that is trying to get across
something. The idea that there are zombies in
The Shining for no reason all of a sudden, that's
a choice. That's not a choice that Ernest Cline
or Zach Penn wanted to make. I mean, Ernest Cline
wanted to probably do a very... straightforward
adaptation of the signing where all of the characters
said all of the words that the character said
in the shining. And it's like, that's a very
boring scene. Whereas Spielberg comes in and
just takes this source material and does something
totally different with it. Um, the way that he
does in the movie, the way that Kubrick did when
he did the shining and yeah. And the way that
he's doing, yeah. And with ready player one,
he even, he even, he even makes sure that like
H hasn't even seen the shining. Right. Like,
There's like a character who's like actually
just ignorant of it and whatever. Totally. And
he's the one that discovers the key because he
notices Halliday and... He notices Halliday and
Kira in the photo from the end of the movie.
Exactly. And that's you can imagine everybody
else was going around noticing all these references,
knowing what to stay away from and not to go
into, you know, room 237. But instead, this,
you know, guy, guy has no idea what's going on,
just stumbles into it. And then he's like, oh,
I know about holiday and this and Kira. And that's
them. I saw them. I noticed the thing. And that
allows them to kind of find the key to this,
which has nothing at all to do with the shining.
Just like. you know kubrick's movie had nothing
to do with what uh king was trying to say and
just like spielberg's movie has nothing to do
with what ernest klein was trying to say um it's
about the creator putting in something there
and what this what this part of the movie is
really talking about is like the failure of the
creator i think like when you said like he was
kind of a weird autistic guy who never you know
could kiss a girl or anything like he's very
much in arrested development um and he never
really developed like as a human like adult and
that kept him miserable and whatnot i think the
part of what's interesting here is that there
is no juice but but yeah spielberg too like he
is somebody who like has always kind of been
seen as this like adult kid sort of thing He's
always been interested in kids' movies. In his
whole new Hollywood era, his whole cohort, he's
the only one that was really interested in kids'
movies. I guess Lucas got into that in maybe
a cynical way or whatever. But Spielberg is particularly
interested in that childhood time. You can reference
our conversation about Hook if you want. Yeah,
totally, totally. And I think that in this movie,
like, I think it's weird and interesting that
he's sort of equating himself with somebody who's
in this sort of arrested development. It seems
like a pretty harsh self -critique, or at least,
or maybe a pretty knowing self -critique. But
I think that part of it is, again, like we talked
in the first one, who is it that's going to carry
on the fire or whatever? I think that part of
what Spielberg's saying is that, like, he doesn't
want somebody who's got the same... you know
issues that spielberg has that is you know spielberg
has a lot of trauma that he's been holding on
to and whatever and that like he doesn't necessarily
think that having the same trauma is good you
know or that you know that trauma is good like
instead like that he thinks you know you should
be able to like not follow in my footsteps he's
like i want somebody who's like not gonna make
the same mistakes that i made like i want somebody
who could kiss a girl like that would be good
like you know what i mean Yeah, because they're
going to have more of a human understanding of
what to do with this thing, you know, the media
and what it's doing for the world. But I think
it's I think it's very interesting for Spielberg
to equate himself and Kubrick and Halliday in
this sort of way. And again, talking about like
people using something that they're against and
kind of. Connecting that to the first one, like
looking at the creator, thinking about their
ideas and then looking at how they, you know,
how they're dealing with this source material
that allows you to actually see the real thing
going on. And then, you know, when find the Easter
egg, you know what I mean? Figure out the hidden
hand. Yeah, the hidden hand of the creator. And
it's almost like obvious when you go back and
watch it and stuff that like I think Halliday
at the beginning, he just says he says like the
keys aren't just lying around under a rock somewhere.
They're up here, and he points to his head. It's
also interesting talking about this whole passing
the torch thing and stuff in reference to Willy
Wonka, because we just talked about this, and
we also talked about it in comparison to a Spielberg
movie, which is even funnier. But this is a total
Wonka competition. No, I mean, this is a remake
of Willy Wonka, yeah. And that's, I mean, Ernest
Cline, just like, as somebody who's just a derivative
writer, just, like, did Willy Wonka. And Wade
Watts is kind of like a Charlie Bucket in some
ways. He transcends Charlie Bucket just like
Halliday transcends Wonka. Wade ends up being
the anti -Charlie, and then Halliday ends up
being the anti -Wonka in the end. And things
happen that really subvert what happens at the
end of Wonka. Exactly, yeah, yeah. For instance,
the final test is that he has to sign this contract,
but he doesn't just blindly sign it. You know
what I mean? No, right, right. And there's this
whole idea of how you have to be better. You're
not just going to take the Oasis and do exactly
what I did. It's not about finding someone who
will continue the regime exactly the way I constructed
it and ran it. It's like part of understanding
the creator is also understanding where the creator
went wrong and how you can improve on what they
did and how you can actually push the thing forward.
that final scene of him in the room with, like,
Halliday's younger childhood self playing the
video game, and that room, that last scene in
the room is, like, amazing. Totally. For lots
of reasons. But just the whole, like, Wade Watts,
you were born and raised in the world of The
Oasis. Like, The Oasis came out in 2025, and
Wade was born in 2027. And, like... When Wade
initially starts talking about Halliday in the
beginning of the movie, he talks about Halliday
like a god. Like, we all worship this guy. And
you know what? We worship him because the world
was such a shitty place, and he gave us a place
we could go. But, dude, you were born into the
world of the Oasis. You don't remember the way
the world was before the Oasis was around. Right.
You know what I mean? Right. He is like a childhood
and banal person who's been born and raised in
the computer game, you know? But there is still
something in Wade that is special, something
that drives him. to understanding the creator
and then he learns all this stuff this isn't
all stuff that he like kind of understands at
the beginning of the movie no exactly this whole
idea of like this whole idea he learns through
the creator's message and the stuff he's learned
from the creator like oh maybe we shouldn't be
playing video games all the time maybe i should
like connect with this girl and maybe there's
like more important things to life than being
like terminally online and shit And then in the
end, that's like, he's like, no, yeah, you're
right. You didn't sign the contract. Reality
is the only place you can get a decent meal.
And you can shut this thing down anytime you
want. Go ahead. And then he decides, like, you
know, they ban the loyalty centers and destroy
IOI. And then they make sure the Oasis is closed
on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And, like, you know
what I mean? Like, they're pushing forward in
a way. that actually is antagonistic to the creator
in some degree, but it's like by the wishes of
the creator, it's like through learning where
the creator went wrong. And I mean, like you
could see a message like that in hook, for instance,
just like the dude connect with your childhood,
like stop being such a ruthless adult, like just
like learning through the artwork, some kind
of important message about how to live or whatever.
No, totally. Totally. But I think that I think
that there's there's like between in these first
two tests, I think there's the idea of like you
got to look at the creator if you want to understand
what this test is about. And then the second
one is like, yeah, well, I mean, you can look
at the creator for so long, but like you don't
want to be the creator. You know what I mean?
It's very important to like to bring something
beyond this creator thing. The creator himself
doesn't want to be this guy, you know? And I
think that, yeah, like the. I think that this
is a lot about like the creation of art and whatnot.
Like this, like we talked about nothing new being
created and that sort of thing. Like if somebody
is going to carry on this torch, it can't just
be somebody who's just going to try and be Spielberg.
Right. That's. And, and if you want to learn
from somebody that you, you know, so it's a piece
of art that you admire or whatever. You can't
just like learn from that by repeating it. Like
that's, that's creating a copy of something like
that's. A simulacrum. You don't understand the
creator or the meaning or like the idea of like
the heart of this thing. So you're just derivative.
There's a really good quote by Bloom in The Anxiety
of Influence where he's talking about how it's
natural for a young poet to misinterpret. Because
a poem is a communication deliberately twisted,
askew, turned about. It's a mistranslation of
its precursors. And so it's only by misreading
one another. that you clear imaginative imaginative
space for yourselves. You know what I mean? And
he's talking about like interpretations of poetry
and whatnot. And he says that most so -called
accurate interpretations are worse than mistakes.
And that perhaps there's only creative misreadings
of things. The idea kind of being that like,
if you understand the work exactly as the person
intended or the, the, or the way that the culture
interprets it, whatever the, the, the, there's
no sort of, there's nothing to take from it.
There's nothing, there's nowhere to go from it.
You have to misinterpret in order to be creative.
You have to bring your own thing. And that's
how you create a new, a new Genesis, a new, an
actually new thing, an actually new idea. That's
not just derivative. That's not simulacrum. Um,
you know what I mean? And I think that, I think
that basically this is all about like, analysis
and understanding things from an analytical point
of view and whatever and they're like so far
we've talked about two different ways of analyzing
art and stuff but in ready player one there's
there's the line it's and it's not in the book
um it's a line that's only in the movie um but
it's some people can read war and peace and come
away thinking it's a simple adventure story others
can read the ingredients on a chewing gum wrapper
and unlock the secrets of the universe and that's
superman right yeah it's from it's from superman
the movie yeah um That's a distraction. It doesn't
matter. Yeah. But it was apparently holiday's
favorite quote, nowhere in the book, but it's
very central to the movie in which we're talking
about a misreading of a source material or looking
at something that's taking source material. That's
totally banal, like a, like a chewing gum wrapper
and trying to put all of these, you know, secrets
of the universe in there. Sure, yeah, exactly.
It's specifically like insulting to Ready Player
One, this line, to put that in there and be like,
you know, this is a chewing gum wrapper and we're
going to turn this into the secrets of the universe,
you know? But yeah, a lot of this brings us to
the third trial and stuff, which is really where
we kind of get into the sort of whole political
sphere in which these creative works are taking
place and whatnot. Um, so we're talking about
like, which I, which it's interesting that this
is the only test that our main characters don't
figure out. Like they, they beat it. Like Parzival
plays adventure and beats it. He like executes
it, but it's actually like the team of holiday
experts that IOI hires that figures out the third
test that the game is adventure because it has
the creator's name hidden. As an Easter egg,
and it was the first game to ever do that or
whatever. I just think it's an interesting thing
that they don't really, like, figure that one
out. That, like, the corporate entity that has
all the resources does get that one. Well, they
don't, though. See, they try adventure. IOI tries
adventure, but they're playing to win. And it's
Parzival that understands, no, you don't play
to win. Like, you play to find the Easter egg.
That's obviously the thing. No, no, no, you're
right. You're right. Which is very similar to
the first trial or whatever, where you go backwards
and whatever. Exactly. However, they do cut to
one of the IOI egg experts. The ooologists. Yeah,
ooologists. They do cut to one of the ooologists
who... realizes when part of the ball starts
playing he's like yeah yeah yeah this is like
you don't play to win like this is what's going
on it's obviously the easter egg thing and like
that's why i chose this but they didn't listen
to my explanation when i passed this up the ladder
like that girl in the first place is like you
should do adventure because adventure is the
first game and they're like fine try adventure
and then they go and they beat adventure and
they're like it didn't work next thing it's like
well that's a very corporate structure you know
data analysis uh way of going about this you
know what i mean and it's only like a true person
who's trying to look at this deeply who's going
to be like no dude obviously the point is not
that like i know the creator and i know like
what this is all about this like it's obviously
about the name of the creator being in this thing
but the corporate structure doesn't have an infrastructure
there that allows for that sort of idea to go
all the way up the ladder and then happen Whereas
parts of all, just kind of, no one wouldn't really
understand it anyway. Well, of course, cause
he doesn't understand anything. He's, he's just
like listening to the people in his ear, telling
him all of these references and things in order
to pretend that he cares about something that
he doesn't care at all about. He's just cynically
cashing in on these things the way that they're
cynically cashing in on all of these franchises.
Like any of Spielberg, like, you know, whoever's
making this new Jurassic Park movie is just somebody
who's cynically cashing in on something that
like a real auteur made. And they're, you know,
seeing how many advertisements you can fit on
the screen in one second. You know what I mean?
Yeah. For how bad the, for, I mean, I guess we
don't really see the world before the Oasis,
but I'm just going to assume the creation of
the Oasis is part of the reason. the world has
gotten so dystopian. Of course, of course. But
like the Oasis is actually like some attempt
at like a utopia. Like it's sort of like an open
source place. There's not a lot of rules. There's
like blue shells all over the place, artifacts
that can imbalance power and stuff to really
keep a corporation like IOI at bay. And it's
such a like volatile, sometimes cruel economic
player because like... It's one of the biggest
forces in the economy and you can literally lose
everything you have immediately or whatever,
you know. Totally. It's like brutal, but it's
fair. It's almost like a Wild West, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, it's an idealistic
view of the internet, you know what I mean? Yeah,
yeah. It's the early internet where everything
was kind of free and not controlled by corporations
and then slowly it gets sold and now even...
theoretically like Instagram or something like
all of these things, like everything is just
algorithms that are corporately controlled. Everything's
corporatized now. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when
the internet wasn't so corporatized and you never
went to places like Google or YouTube or Facebook
or whatever, you know, it was like a much more
weird environment, you know? Totally. Totally.
But it wasn't necessarily good for you to be
there and spending a lot of time on it still,
you know? Right. Right. I think that's true.
I think that a lot of the people who, you know,
created it would agree, especially late in their
lives. You know what I mean? They might have
regrets about the way things have gone. And I
think that similarly, I mean, Spielberg is not
a Silicon Valley guy or whatever. I mean, he's
been cutting edge for his whole career as was
Kubrick, but he's not a Silicon Valley guy, but
he is talking about those things the way he is
talking about Silicon Valley the same way that
he's talking about the, uh, the whole film industry.
Like these are, these are similarly like, big
bursts of creative energy with unlimited potential
that then get corporatized and, you know, pasteurized
and sold back to us as, you know, with diminishing
returns for a hundred years. You know what I
mean? Um, and I think that that process, like
that capitalistic process of the destruction
of that is like part of, part of Ernest Klein's
conversation, um, in the book and whatever. Um,
but his is very much like kind of a Silicon Valley
metaphor, whereas, Spielberg really starts bringing
in the film industry side of things. I think
a lot of this really ties into the creation of
the blockbuster with Jaws and the kind of death
of the new Hollywood because of that. And then
the kind of rise of some of these franchise things
and all the creativity that went into this when
they had a generation of true auteurs that could
work within this structure. that now you're seeing
a generation of none of that. And like, there's
like, what do you got as far as Spielberg? Like
the best we have is like a JJ Abrams. Like that's
rough. You know what I mean? It's like, and I
think that what's really interesting is JJ Abrams,
like he knew Spielberg for a long time and he's
kind of a little mini Spielberg guy. And, and,
you know, Spielberg has helped like produced
his career and blah, blah, blah. But he's never
doing anything like Spielberg. He kind of feels
very much like a Nolan, you know what I mean?
Who's like going in there. Not a Christopher
Nolan. No, no, no. Like a Nolan Sorrento. A Nolan
Sorrento. Who's going in there, like when he's
offering to... get his coffee and stuff when
you see him actually with holiday. And it's just
like, Oh, he's just like a little worm. And then
now that holiday is gone, it's like, Oh, he's,
he's trying to take over this guy's legacy and
like, you know what I mean? Be the big man. That's
true. Yeah. You're right. He's, he's giving him
coffee and trying to pitch the idea of having
like different. tiers like payment tiers and
stuff like that exactly exactly different ways
to sell out yeah basically holiday has no interest
in that and whatever but like these are the guys
who take over afterwards if there's nobody else
you know what i mean these guys that you never
thought were threatening you're just we're little
sniveling losers this is i mean this is also
just like the rise of fascism stuff you know
i mean that's what eichmann is is somebody who
like yeah you know Would work for you. It would
get you your coffee and whatever. And then as
soon as there's the opportunity, you'll like
have you and your family killed, you know, so
that he can get a slightly better job. But yeah,
Nolan is a total Aikman. Yeah. It's a super dystopian
world. Um, it's actually like insanely bleak
ready player one, even though it has like a really
fun feeling to it. Yeah. I mean like, like the
way the movie opens, like. The first shot is,
like, of the stacks, you know, where Wade Watts
lives. And, like, the shot almost looks black
and white. Like, there's no color in the world.
It's very, like, dead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's
also pretty grainy. And there's, like, it's grainy.
In the real world, there's often a lot of grainy.
Yeah, so it's film grainy in the real world.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I think all the real world
stuff is still shot in film and stuff. And then
all the stuff in the Oasis is, like. avatar where
they have um vr headsets on and they can see
the entire digital set in front of them and they're
like mapping out the shots that way or whatever
but yeah and then like the movie opens with jump
by van halen it's like really upbeat but it's
also like really on point with the themes of
the movie about like a leap of faith and yeah
but also it's kind of depressing it's also like
yo it's this kid at the top of this uh tower
and it's just like jump jump Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
And then, like, on the screen, there's a whole
thing about, like, pain is pleasure. Like, feel
every hit and stuff. Yeah, it's like, get ready
for the feel of real. The feel of real. Yeah,
it's a masochistic society. And then there's,
like, I Hate Myself for Loving You is playing
over the whole introduction of Halliday in the
Oasis. Yeah, yeah. And then as he's going down,
the whole opening sequence, almost everybody
you see... um in that opening sequence with the
headset on they're all doing physical activities
they're like kickboxing or like riding a surfboard
or like they're like one of them's a pole dancer
which is one of the weird subtle erotic elements
and even like that's that's also weird too like
when when um this is also part of the opening
sequence like when he first goes into the oasis
and there's that really crazy like zoom that's
just like going through all the different worlds
and stuff like that How, like, there's nothing
there that's actually novel. Like, it's all stuff
you could do in the real world, except it's,
like, turned on its head in some weird AI way.
Like, you can ski, but you can do it down the
pyramids because there's snow on them. Right,
right, right. You can climb a mountain, but it's
with Batman. And you can... hand glide but it's
through a crazy storm and like you can play polo
but it's on ice and whatever like it's all like
really you can gamble and you can go have sex
in this uh you know yeah in this brothel or whatever
like there's nothing there that's like novel
or like something you couldn't do in the real
world right opening sequence it's all like really
like weirdly bleak and kind of just like yeah
i mean everybody's substituting vices like yeah
yeah it's just a simulacrum of like las vegas
you know what i mean there's hookers over here
there's gambling over here there's you know there's
an indoor skiing rink and then there's then it
like goes to basically planet doom which is just
like endless death match But whatever, man. It's
bleak. The idea that the only real powers in
the world are Gregarious Games, which is also
a very ironic name for the company, and IOI.
That's it. There's no talk of governments. There's
no talk of this is the power. These corporations
control everything. There are no nations. There
are no peoples. There's only the dollar. Yeah,
there are no nations, there are no peoples. There's
only IOI and gregarious games, and the entire
economy is based on what happens in the Oasis.
Right. And, yeah, you can actually lose all your
shit or become insanely wealthy or whatever it
is. It's like a total gamble. Totally. And, obviously,
most people are losing, and they have to live
in these crazy -ass towers of shipping containers.
stacked on one another. It almost looks like
the Elysian. You know what I mean? It's overcrowding.
It's overcrowding. And the loyalty centers are
just like slavery centers and whatever. I don't
know. That shit's all... It's weird just how
dark and bleak it is, but it just comes off as
a fun adventure movie. The fact that they just
send drones to attach bombs to his aunt's house
or whatever. And there will be no consequences
for them, unless Parzival survives, and then
he will have the power. But nothing changes until
he actually gets the egg. You know what I mean?
Nobody's actually protecting him until he's actually
the richest person in the world. There's no power
structure that's like, well, this is wrong. Because
it's not wrong if the other guys win. You know?
Killing Parzival is perfectly fine if IOI wins.
Nobody's ever going to go into that. No cops
are going to investigate the murder of Parzival's
family. Yeah, exactly. Because they control the
government. They control everything. And it's
only once Parzival controls everything that then
the lawyers show up and then finally there are
cops there to stop the guy with the gun. Those
cops weren't going to show up if he didn't win.
That's the whole... They were watching, too.
They were like, which one are we supposed to
protect? Yeah, exactly. Cops show up for once
at the end of the movie as if there's a government.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And there is for like
the one person in the world who has all of the
money. There's there's, you know, plenty of protection
for you. Yeah. But yeah, it's just survival of
the strongest. But I think that that's what's
so interesting about this third challenge. is
it's dealing with this whole sort of thing where
it's, yeah, it's still about, it's kind of the
first challenge again. It's still about kind
of understanding that this is about the creator
and finding the Easter egg that reveals the name
of the creator. That's like the whole thing has
all been about this creator thing. But a lot
of what the third challenge is about is like
dealing with the battle against IOI to like actually
win this thing. It's about dealing with the whole
power structure of like being one person against
this whole giant system and kind of. Totally,
yeah. I don't know. And the need to band together
to defeat that system. That's something that's
really underlined by the ending of the movie,
where Parzival could not do this on his own.
There's no possibility of an individual to do
this on their own. It's very similar to like
Wachowski stories, you know, about the individual
and the corporation and making art within it
and all that kind of stuff. Totally. Totally.
Like Speed Racer and whatever. No, absolutely.
But I think I think but I think this one brings
that that filmmaking dimension to it, I think.
And the history specifically of Spielberg and
specifically of Kubrick, who were like, you know,
really good friends and have a very specific
type of idea of what this Easter egg is, which
is what the second sort of challenge is assessing.
And I think that I think that we kind of didn't
really touch on this enough in the second challenge.
But I think that like these are two guys who
are very different than a lot like. So like when
this movie came out, there was actually like
a documentary released on HBO about Spielberg.
It was just called Spielberg. And it's kind of
about Spielberg's childhood and life and how
his career and whatever. And Spielberg is like
generally been pretty, you know, secretive about
a lot of his life and stuff up until this Ready
Player One documentary came out. And I think
that it's interesting that in this movie, we
kind of go into the memory archives of Halliday
and we look at his archives and we find that
there's something missing from the archives.
That's part of the thing in the second challenge.
Oh, that there's only one mention of Kira, you
mean? There's only one mention of Kira in this
whole archive that she's been essentially erased.
And I think that what's really interesting is
when I looked at this Spielberg documentary.
there was not one reference to Stanley or actually,
I think there was one, there was one reference
to Stanley Kubrick. And I think it was him talking
about how he was trying to outdo 2001 with, uh,
close encounters of the third kind, which is
an interesting. Interesting conversation. Um,
but that's the only reference to Kubrick in the
entire documentary where he and Kubrick were,
you know, they had a very long term, uh, friendship,
um, starting way back on the shining set is when,
when they met. Um, he was on going to that, um,
studio lot to try and secure the lot for Indiana
Jones, the second one. Um, Temple of Doom. Yeah,
Temple of Doom. So basically he met Kubrick on
that set and during The Shining they became friends
and then the set burned down and he took longer
and it became a problem for Spielberg. But they
became friends and they were friends for a long
time and then eventually Spielberg even made
AI, took Kubrick's project and made it himself
after his death. one of his very few like speeches
he made at the academy awards was like in the,
in memoriam for Kubrick and stuff. Um, and during
that, like he discusses, you know, how the studio
should not cut eyes wide shut and in any way
that Kubrick would not have been happy with and
whatever he's, you know, he's very strongly on
Kubrick side and he always has been, he's always
really cared about him. He's on the special features
of like Kubrick DVDs, even though like he doesn't
have any special features on any of his own DVDs.
Like he's, he's kind of like one of Kubrick's
greatest like supporters in the, in the culture
and stuff. And they both like supported each
other for many years, had long conversations
on the phone every like month or maybe it was
every week or something. Um, but they were, they
were very close friends and collaborators. Um,
and I thought that it was interesting that like
this documentary didn't mention any of that.
Um, however, in this movie, like that came out
at the same time, like Kubrick is super, super,
you know, He's central to the, to the whole kind
of concept of this very present, not just in
the shining scene, but all throughout it. Yeah,
exactly. Exactly. And I think that it's kind
of like Kira, like the one thing that's kind
of not mentioned in this is kind of the key and
the key in this case in, in this. test that is
based around finding the one thing that's missing
is Kubrick, which is also the one thing that
was missing in this documentary that is like
the memory archives that existed at the time.
Like, you know what I mean? So there are all
these weird synchronicities, I think, that really
line up and like feel intentional. And at the
same time, we were talking about like, you know,
misinterpreting Kubrick and taking The Shining
and putting zombies in it and stuff, but misinterpreting
on purpose in order to do something different
and do something that maybe Kubrick would have
done. You know what I mean? Not something that
is super respectful of Kubrick, but something
that's disrespectful of Kubrick in a respectful
way or something. You know what I mean? Something
that knows how to take influence, but then like
turn away from it at the right point. You know,
that could be the way you think about him dealing
with Ernest Cline, too, where it's like, oh,
well, this is a good idea and I'm turning away
at the right point. But I think it's different.
I think that Kubrick is really kind of somebody
he looks up to, whereas Ernest Cline is somebody
he looks down on. Yeah. And I think that's, you
know, part of the thing. So I think that Kubrick
connection is like super kind of important specifically
because Kubrick is the guy in the culture who
people have like conspiracy theories about his
movies. You know what I mean? Like when we have
this conception of an Easter egg, not as just
like a reference to something like, Ooh, I know
that this X man did this at that thing. So that's
such a cool reference. Like instead, like the,
the idea in. You know, the conspiracy theory
analyses of Kubrick movies is like, oh, well,
it's the fact that this is this number here.
This number shows that like this is actually
the opposite or something. You know what I mean?
There's a book on a shelf in Clockwork Orange
that reveals that the whole movie is actually
the opposite of what it pretended to be or something.
You know what I mean? There's a lot of that sort
of analysis of Kubrick movies. And that's the
type of thing that people say, ah, that's a conspiracy
theory. You know, why would that sort of thing
matter? But this movie, specifically in the second
challenge, like is sort of underlining. It's
like that is a legitimate analysis. You know
what I mean? It's legitimizing that sort of Kubrickian
concept of the Easter egg as like a hidden key
or a hidden message that decodes. Opens up a
conspiracy. Yeah. Yeah. And part of that's about
showing the hidden hand, showing the conspiracy,
because it is a conspiracy. because it is a movie.
So I think that's all kind of a really important
part of that second challenge, basically, is
this real connection to Kubrick, to Kubrickian
analysis and to that conspiracy theory analysis,
that that is a far more legitimate way of sort
of looking at art than just like noticing all
of the facts about the way that this character
was there and then this character was there and
that was in this other franchise. And it's so
cool. There was a crossover. It's like, no, no,
no, that's not. It's kind of about like coming
to it and misinterpreting it in your own way
or interpreting it in the right way. You know
what I mean? As opposed to just this sort of
factual analysis thing. And so I think that's
part of what's interesting when we go into the
third challenge and it becomes about this sort
of corporate understanding of this art and the
way that they deal with the art. You know what
I mean? They're trying to win the game and get
to the end. You know what I mean? And finish
it as fast as possible to win and blah, blah,
blah. Whereas the whole point of adventure is
it's not about winning. It's just about playing
and going and finding, playing it long enough
that you find this hidden room that shows you
this thing. You know what I mean? It's not about
just getting to the end. Yeah. And I mean, like
when you, when you talk about fan culture, sometimes
you're talking about people who are like rabid
media junkies. Like they're just trying to collect
them all essentially, or like watch as many things
as possible or collect as many toys as possible.
And it might not be about like, watching the
same thing over and over and over again until
you find the secret meaning of it imagine who
the first person was who found that easter egg
and adventure who like crawled along those walls
until they found some weird random object they
could grab and then they had to figure out to
bring it back to like the beginning of the game
right and past the starting point that's like
a really crazy thing to figure out like you'd
have to just be like like playing that shit like
religiously. Yeah. Like trying to know every
single thing that's actually really like fond
and attractive to you. You know what I mean?
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a weird type
of person that would do that, but it's also a
weird type of person who would make a video game
in the, at that time. You know what I mean? Like,
and that creator and that type of person who
would find that they are the ones who are connected
to each other. You know what I mean? There's
this corporate entity in between them. That is
the reason. that his name is there is because
there were no credits on those games at that
point. So he had to hide it in there. And it
was him beating the corporation that was releasing
this game in order to connect with the audience
through this Easter egg that reveals himself
to this audience. You know what I mean? Absolutely.
It'd be kind of like if you told Warner Brothers
you were trying to make a sci -fi epic about
trans people. They'd be like, no, but that's
kind of what the Matrix is, you know? Right,
right. The Matrix is a lot of things, but like
just the hidden messages of things, like if the
suits knew about what you're really expressing,
they wouldn't like fund it, you know? Exactly.
I mean, we talked about this even with the Planet
of the Apes. Yeah, exactly. With the original
Planet of the Apes, there was the producer who
was just like, I didn't think there was any political
messaging in there at all. I didn't think it
had anything to do. I thought that the, you know,
the end was just a cool image. nobody under you
thought that but like that's great and that's
a nolan sorrento you know what i mean um yeah
exactly somebody who's just playing for the end
or whatever and doesn't understand the essence
of the thing doesn't understand why they chose
to do adventure like there's no i don't know
exactly that i think is is what's important uh
and i think that kind of That's a lot of that's
already sort of there in the second challenge.
Um, but it's, it, you go through it in the third
challenge and it's real world kind of this battle
between the corporation and the people and all
that stuff. Um, but then it all, then it all
does turn into this weird Willy Wonka thing.
And it's kind of like after the, the ending of
that second challenge, like it's after the ending
of that conversation, we have kind of another
conversation. Um, and I think that's really interesting
because. Yeah, like we said, Willy Wonka was
about a fucking evil dude who manipulates a kid
into being exactly like him. Yeah. This is really
taking steps to be like, no, no, no, dude, don't
be like me. Have the confidence to be your own
thing, because I was my own thing, and that's
why this is good. And you don't want to have
my weaknesses. You want to have my strengths.
You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe
not that's why this was good, but that's why
this was novel. That's why this was special.
And different. Right. Or whatever. That's why
it was original. Why it just made an impact.
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Because he accepts that
it might not have been good. Right. That it might
not have been good that this was created. That
it like completely upended the world economy.
That like it made everyone terminally online.
That it created like a fascist organization that
was trying to like take over their power and
enslave. like, a generation of people because
they went into debt playing on the Oasis. Like,
it's bad. It's not a good thing he created. Yeah.
And that, I think, is very much what Spielberg's
thinking when he's looking at the Marvel Cinematic
Universe. And he's like, I made fucking Jaws
to talk about Vietnam and fucking generations
and trauma. And instead, like, we're watching
what? Like, some fucking bullshit about, like,
Wolverine versus Deadpool? Like, what are we
doing? You know what I mean? And this is not
the essence. This is not creating a thing. This
is like ready player one bullshit. It's like
what no one says. Yeah. It's a, it's a meta IP,
like Ouroboros joke thing. That's just like,
yeah, I think this was really interesting. It's
like, uh, Zach Penn wrote another movie called,
uh, uh, what, what is it? What is it called?
Free guy. Yeah. Free guy, free guy, which is
like almost the exact same story as ready player
one. It's like, I mean, It's about a character
in a game who discovers that he's a person or
something, and then he comes to self. But it's
almost the exact same movie, but it's fucking
terrible. I've never seen it, but he's an NPC,
right? Yeah, he's an NPC who then has an awakening
and becomes not an NPC. Very much just like the
characters in this movie, right? Parzival is
essentially an NPC in the beginning, and through
these trials, he realizes how to become an actual
human being. Um, this like literally he's a,
he's a program and whatever. And, but the point
is it's like the same movie, but it's fucking
terrible. And I think that like, you can really
see like looking at that movie, like this is
the same writer. This is a Marvel director. This
is like, you know, this is exactly what one would
expect you to do with ready player one. Um, and
it sucks. Like. But Spielberg took that thing
and like turned it completely on its head and
criticizes it and like completely picks it apart
and like shows you what's wrong with it. And
that's like why Ready Player One is a totally
watchable and interesting movie compared to that.
Like even for people who don't know what's going
on, it's just like it's still that's the one
that's going to make any sort of cultural impact.
Free Guy, nobody's ever going to watch it. Ready
Player One only has a slightly better rating
than Free Guy, so I feel like both movies sort
of amount to the same thing for most people.
Maybe, maybe. I feel like a lot of people might
watch Free Guy and be like, yeah, this isn't
that good, but they'll also watch Ready Player
One and be like, yeah, this is not good either.
I feel like it comes off as the same kind of
movie. Yeah, I guess, I guess. But I think that,
I think that part of it is like Spielberg's really
showing you through this project. Like I'm taking
a thing from a fan boy, just like a fan boy bullshit,
like a fan fiction thing. And I'm having a Zach
Penn, a Marvel writer, write this thing for me.
And then I'm going to have like. you know the
same effects people who do all this other bullshit
do my effects and everything and whatever but
i'm gonna make it incredible and like that shows
the difference between like an auteur and like
a non -auteur you know what i mean that shows
the difference between like what like what marvel's
doing versus what he's he's literally just like
doing a marvel project But this one has so much
nuance and so much depth that like those movies
lack that like it literally shows the whole point
of auteur cinema there. Like, you know what I
mean? It's that this does have a guy behind the
thing that's the hidden hand who's like trying
to direct this in certain mysterious and interesting
ways. Yeah. I mean, the entire movie is really
just like making the case for film analysis and
analyzing Spielberg seriously. And like finding
meaning in art that affects your life. It like
validates this podcast and what we do here, you
know? No, totally. Totally. I think, I mean,
that's the thing is like after going back and
rewatching all of Spielberg's movies and being
like, dude, like all of these are saying something
really interesting or subversive or like, well,
we'll get to more of these on the podcast. But
I think that all of these movies have a lot going
on. And I felt like, dude, like there are. there's
like easter eggs here or something there's like
some there's like always a thing in a spielberg
movie that shows you these hidden depths um that
once you notice that thing it's like oh well
that's exactly what it's about you know what
i mean i think you know like and many times these
are the criticisms of his movies right like people
talk about indiana jones and be like oh yeah
well the exact same thing would have happened
whether he was there or not like as if that's
a criticism but it's like no dude that's not
a that's the whole point You know what I mean?
It's the same with Ready Player One. Like, oh,
well, what? No, no new media was created after
2020. That's stupid. And it's like, no, that's
the whole point. Like that's every time people
kind of think there's. So I think that when you
notice these things and then start thinking about
them, you can find this sort of thing. And then
I watched this movie and it's all about like,
oh, there's a thing called an Easter egg. And
it's not just a reference. It's like a hidden
thing that actually shows you the underlying
depth to something that seems just like commercial
on the face of it. But really, it's like got
this sort of code. I remember when you saw this
movie for the first time, it was with me. And
it's like when when we like stepped outside to
have a smoke and talk about it, you were just
like, I feel incredibly validated in like the
way I've been thinking about Spielberg for a
long time. It's like literally him stating it
for the first time in his career is just like,
dude, like I am doing this just so you know.
And to me, it felt like his eyes wide shut, right?
Where it was just kind of like at the end of
Kubrick's career, he's kind of like. and a bunch
of conspiracy shit about like evil elites and
whatever it's like well that changes the rest
of your career because like now we can see like
the evil elite uh conspiracy shit that already
was there in all of these other movies like you
know what i mean this connects to all those in
so many ways of course the same guy made these
and now you can see that because he's revealed
the hidden hand a little bit the other things
that are going on like The same thing happened
watching Ready Player One. It was like, dude,
you're totally saying all of these things now.
You're totally saying you're doing this on purpose.
You're totally saying there is a code and that
the right people out there can see the code,
but that most of the viewing audience is not
going to be interested enough to find it. Let
alone the corporate entities. And there's no
real corporate entity that's going to do it either.
There's no benefit to doing it monetarily necessarily.
You know what I mean? Um, unless, you know, Spielberg
passes on the torch to you, but other than the
Willy Wonka fantasy, but there is the effect
on your life that, you know, Parzival has in
the end. And I think that that's kind of what's
really important is in the end, like Parzival
actually like does create a life for himself.
That's like outside of the oasis. You know what
I mean? Like he's cured his autism to a certain
degree. Sure, yeah. In the beginning, he's alone
and basically an orphan. He's living with his
aunt, and then they get killed. He's a very lonely
dude, and the only people he knows are online.
And even though it's insanely convenient from
a storytelling perspective that everybody is
in Columbus, Ohio, he, by the end, is really
with all of his friends in flesh and blood. He
has a clan and a community. You know what I mean?
Totally. He finds a girl, and he joins a resistance.
To fight against the power and everything. That's
all so powerful. It is a lot like The Matrix,
too, in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's like The Matrix,
totally. There's a lot of crossover things. Well,
Ernest Cline is also just derivative of The Matrix.
Ernest Cline is the most derivative. Ready Player
One, the book, is the most derivative possible
thing. It's like... It's like starting with nothing.
You know what I mean? Like as far as like putting
any meaning in this thing, it's like Spielberg
almost has a blank slate because it's a slate
that's just full of so much IP bullshit. Like,
you know? Yeah. So. None of these trials are
the trials that are in the book. None of the
challenges or any of the riddles. None of that's
from the book. It's all stuff that Spielberg
makes up in order to talk about film analysis
and his career and his connection to Kubrick
and the fact that they're the only two guys that
are kind of doing this thing. I mean, not the
only two guys. There are other people. I think
Nolan is trying to do some of that, too, in some
subversive filmmaking for the masses. sort of
ways putting things under the radar totally but
i think that spielberg is very much in this movie
like validating that um so we're going on almost
an hour and a half here before so to get us so
to get to the to the kind of third challenge
and the ending and everything one of the things
that i think is really interesting and i should
mention like i wrote a 60 page essay on this
on ready player one that's part of why this is
all jumping all over the place and i've got like
a lot of ideas that i'm not getting out very
well But one of the things that I had not put
in this essay was kind of my conspiracy theory
about Ready Player One that I just couldn't quite
pin down or validate exactly. I'm not exactly
sure where it is still, but I think a lot of
this has to do with. Yeah, a lot of this has
to do with Ogden Morrow, Simon Pegg's character.
Yeah, that's true. Yeah. And he obviously he's
the curator. He's the guy at the. At the memory
farm. He's the craft work robot. Exactly. And
he's the one who gives Parzival the free life
and all that. But he's also clearly the one that's
like pulling the strings the whole time. Like
the only reason that Parzival notices that scene
where he says, why don't you go back, way back
to the beginning, the way that it was. Like,
that's only because... the curator doesn't turn
it off when parsable tells him to turn it off
you know what i mean he leaves it on for just
a second he's kind of like yeah you hear this
you hear this like he's about to say it dude
right as you're walking off i'll just leave it
on then he's like wait no go back okay like and
then you know he then he gives him the free life
he likes you know he validates them through like
subtle i don't know very subtle means Do you
think Ogdemore really didn't know that that was
the only mention of Kira in the archives? And
that really was like a real bet and stuff? Or
do you think it was all just like part of the,
yeah, like how Ogdemore was sort of just like
his Virgil, like leading him on? Well, I think
it's all part of the plan. Absolutely. So I think
that essentially in the book, he wins the free
life by playing Pac -Man for 24 hours or some
shit. It's like a stupid, oh, you're very good
at Pac -Man. Here's a free life. But. Yeah, in
the movie, the free life he gets for finding
that. But he gets it from Ogden Morrow. Ogden
Morrow is like, I feel like Ogden Morrow, he's
seen this kid around before. The curator has
interacted with this kid many times. And it seems
to me like the real search for the one who will
carry the torch might be over before the movie
starts. You know what I mean? Like, Ogden Morrow
may have determined this already. And these are
all just things being played out. he really is
in control of this. The other thing that I think
is really interesting is the final scene, um,
is when Parzival says like, you're not dead,
are you? You're not a program, are you? And he's
like, no. And he's like, but holiday's dead.
And he's like, yeah. He's like, then what are
you? Then what are you? Yeah. That's a really
weird moment, man. And then, and then he leaves
the room and he closes the door and immediately
the door opens to the back of the truck. And
then Ogden Morrow's there. The door closes on
holiday. Door opens on Arden Morrow. Right after
the question, then what are you? You know what
I mean? That's true. Yeah. He's not alive. You're
saying that. And he's not a program. So the only
other option is that he's somebody else. Yeah.
Unless it's some sort of AI bullshit or something.
But I just don't believe that. I don't think
Spielberg believes that. I don't think Kubrick
believed in that. I don't think that's any part
of any of this. I think that. You can imagine,
oh, it's a spirit, it's an angel, it's a thing,
it's some sort of thing that we couldn't possibly
understand. Or it's like, no, no, no, or it's
the only possible answer, which is that it's
the one guy who's been standing behind all of
this the whole time pulling all the strings.
Ogden Morrow, yeah. Ogden Morrow, who got kicked
out of the company and found his way back in.
Ogden Morrow was just using... Halliday's avatar.
He was just, like, using his headset. And maybe
he's the one who actually came up with the entire
competition to begin with and had nothing to
do with Halliday. And Halliday never actually
had this realization. It was only something Ogden
knew about his best friend. Exactly. Exactly.
And because, like, also, like, who's the type
of person who could make up this type of piece
of art? Like, you know what I mean? Who's actually
going to find the person who can find... Like,
he's the curator. is really the one who's curating
this whole thing because he's not a weird autistic
person who, like, can't relate to people and
doesn't understand how to do these. Like, you
know what I mean? Yeah. You know what I just
realized, too, that's really interesting about
Simon Pegg that connects to all this is that
essay he wrote about infantilization. Oh, of
course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. that's a great essay
it's a great essay but it's just talking about
how we've got a whole culture based on people
obsessed with the shit that they were interested
in when they were 12 years old because it gives
us comfort because the world's full of so much
anxiety and so we just go back to our childhood
state where we didn't know about these things
so we can like it's yeah it's totally about you
know and the extended childhoods that his generation
was given that now every generation is like even
more extended childhoods or even more like extended
toddlerhoods you know what i mean It's like,
are we even becoming adolescents anymore? Totally.
Yeah, yeah. And I think that there really is
something there where, like, the more I've watched
this movie, the more I've been like, dude, I
think the curator is absolutely the key to all
of this. He's the curator. And in the end, what
happens is the guy, the curator, Ogden Morrow,
who got kicked out of the company, he's signed
on as a silent partner. For life. But only for
25 cents, though. Not for any money. Yeah. Not
for any money at all. As the, like, head of this
company that's run by a bunch of teenagers. See,
this is the thing. It kind of is a Willy Wonka
in the end, isn't it? You're kind of right. Damn,
dude. You're fucking me up right now. Exactly.
Exactly. Fuck, dude. Oh, shit. It kind of is
a Willy Wonka in the end. They're like, I got
my team. I got my whatever. And we signed him
on for just $1. So he's not a bad guy. He's just
like the only adult around who's manipulated
us into finding the one. You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah. That's a really great conspiracy
theory, man. I buy it. That's interesting. I
think there's something there. I haven't quite
connected it to all the other themes of the entire
movie or whatever. But I think there's something
there about that. Definitely. And I think that
that that's part of my idea of this having something
to do with J .J. Abrams and these false, you
know, successors to Spielberg and stuff and these
people who are just derivative of him and whatever.
Like, I think that there's something there about
the hidden people next to the people, the Hollywood
elites with their. They're handlers. I don't
know. There's something there about this, though.
And I think there's also something there about
just like Halliday is not the type of person
who could be in charge of this without a handler.
Yeah. You know? You're right. Yeah. Because he's
just a child. He's just a child. And Ogden Morrow
has been manipulating a child to create this
giant company. And now he's finding another child
to manipulate. be in charge of this company.
Like, I don't know. Holy shit. I think it doesn't
matter that he kicked this guy out of the company.
I mean, the whole thing in the end that he, like,
the whole not signing the contract, it was connected
to, part of this was cut out of the movie, but
it was supposed to be connected to, like, and
he does say it, but it's very quick. It's like,
oh, this contract, this was you kicking Ogden
Moore out of the company. This is the biggest
mistake of your career. The whole point of this
whole challenge is that, like... In the end,
he said it wasn't actually about Kira. It was
about losing his best friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was all about Ogden Morrow being the greatest
one. Um, which is like exactly what our game
created by Ogden Morrow would say, isn't it?
You know what I mean? That's kind of, is that
really the, uh, the curator? It's hard to say.
Dude. All that stuff at the end is so insanely
feel -good. Like a saccharine feel -good Spielberg
ending. To color it that way. It never felt real.
You're right. It doesn't feel real. Especially
how many times the door is open and just how
weird it all is. It's so staged. It's a super
bizarre... It's like the end of Minority Report
or something. Many of these Spielberg movies
end with these false... The end of War of the
Worlds. Many of these have these false saccharine
endings. that don't feel real. And you're like,
why? Oh, why did that feel like that? It's like,
dude, because it's ironic. It's interesting.
Like, there's something else going on that is
making you feel weird about this. It's like the
ending of Willy Wonka. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Really, it's like the ending of A Clockwork Orange.
You know what I mean? Oh, yeah? Where it's like,
it doesn't feel real, but it's off -putting enough
to notice that it doesn't feel real sort of thing.
But it's the end of A Clockwork Orange. It's
the, I was cured all right sort of thing. You
know? Except here it's like I was curated all
right. You know what I mean? There's the whole
thing we were saying. All the endings don't really
make sense. You have in Kubrick movies these
endings that just feel sort of surreal. But there's
always a key to them in Kubrick's movies where
when you watch them, once you understand it,
it's like the ending actually does totally make
sense. It's not just this out there surreal sort
of thing. That's strange, yeah. Yeah, once you
kind of solve that puzzle, the ending of A Clockwork
Orange totally makes sense. And the ending of
this movie, too, is like, why does this not feel
real? Why is this so weird? It's like, well,
he was cured all right. You know what I mean?
He was curated all right. Yeah, yeah. He's colluding
with his government officials. It's the same
ending as A Clockwork Orange, essentially. Yeah,
I've actually never thought about that Spielberg
-Kubrick connection, the idea that... Because
you're right, yeah, like, Kubrick's endings are
always sort of enigmatic. And, yeah, just because
of the way we see Spielberg and the way he makes
his movies, we don't see him as an enigmatic
filmmaker, so his endings don't come off like
the way Kubrick endings do. But you're right.
Like, if you kind of see them as doing very similar
things, all of Spielberg's endings are also these
really weird, surreal, like, what the fuck just
happened kind of things. Well, totally. And here,
if you pay attention to it, like... There's the
whole thing with the contract, right? But we
didn't even talk about it. There's the whole
second contract. There's the contract in the
game that he decides not to sign because it's
obviously wrong to sign the contract. And then,
as soon as he leaves the game, Ogdemore's like,
yo, here's the contract. He's like, oh, great,
I'll sign it. Oh, yeah, you're right. Yeah, there's
a real contract. He's signing it not as an individual.
He's not signing it as an individual. He's signing
it for his team. It's like, you know what? Actually,
rewrite this contract so that it's our team that's
in charge. But that's really like... what he's
been sort of curated into you know what i mean
like this is the big difference between him and
holiday is that holiday was this sort of lone
libertarian sort of hero who had sole control
over the oasis and because of that like it was
probably really irritating for ogden morrow who
like wanted to do more with this company for
all these other people like ioi wanted to do
more of this company but he's like no i just
i just want it to be the way that it was you
know what i mean But they've like totally taken
that individuality out of this, that libertarian
thing out of this through this sort of like left
wing sort of like, you know, believe in yourself
and go with your team and feel good about the
fact that you're good to your friends and you're
all together in this sort of commune where you
share power and that sort of like, you know what
I mean? But that also makes them more controllable
by this guy. Yeah, maybe. But they also do make
the decision to change the rules and. screw over
ioi you know so the results that's true that's
true but the results in the end i mean you could
say it's similar to the ending of schindler's
list where there's kind of a both and thing happening
where like yeah maybe this guy is just like a
piece of shit but he did save all these jews
you know totally totally and this is this is
the thing that i think is really interesting
about this right is this has been a big chess
game between ioi and moro Right? Yeah. That's
who he's trying to defeat. And these kids have
been the pawns of Moro's sort of side. But, like,
what's the difference between Moro and IOI? Like,
we kind of started talking about IOI and how
great the name is because it looks like Hal and
because it's a Masonic symbol and all that. But
we didn't even mention it's binary, right? It's
101. I didn't get into all the reasons why it's
a good name. But, yeah. And it's almost, it's
too obvious. But, like, it's 101. And, like,
what we're talking about is, like, algorithmic
understanding, binary understanding of reality.
You know what I mean? And a data. algorithm based
understanding of reality. And we're doing that
in this sort of. of the modern film age and what
has happened to the modern film age and what's
happening in the future of the modern film age.
And we're talking about a chess game between
an algorithm and a gatekeeper, essentially. I
think it's really interesting to tie that to
Netflix and the current streaming paradigm thing
and all that. The algorithm loses to this gatekeeper,
which I think is really interesting. It's all
a battle between an algorithm and a gatekeeper
without a... like, master without, like, a Kubrick
or a high artist. It's just the lower elements
kind of fighting for the table scraps or whatever.
I mean, I feel like there is a Kubrick in the
character, either of Halliday or Morrow or something.
Well, Halliday's not around anymore. And Morrow's
not a Kubrick. He's not a Halliday. Like, Morrow...
Well, that's really... Morrow might have had
better ideas about how to like, I mean, you can
see Morrow arguing with Halliday about the direction
of the company and the power it has and all that
stuff and how Halliday is just not listening
to him. And then he kind of got like pushed out
of the company. So even if Morrow was manipulating
this whole thing, I can't necessarily say he's
an evil character, maybe a gatekeeper. Yes. But
like maybe his intentions are good. And I kind
of think that like. the changes that get made
to the Oasis and the changes that come about
because of this new regime are actually better
than what Halliday created and, like, wrought
upon the world, you know? No, I think that's
true. I think that's true. But I also think that
there's... It's interesting to me because we're
talking about a relationship between Halliday
and Morrow. We're also talking about a relationship
between Kubrick and Spielberg or Kubrick and
his handler. What's his name? Vitaly. Leon Vitaly.
Yeah, yeah. Red Cloak. Red Cloak. Leon Vitaly.
The one who's in charge of it all. Yeah, exactly.
Behind the mask. But I think that the idea of
this sort of... cynical there's there's a cynicism
here there's like a struggle of power between
moro and holiday and there's a frustration with
how it is sort of individuality and genius and
whatever and then there's some there's some back
and forth in this relationship in which like
i don't know that holiday could exist without
moro or if moro could exist without holiday but
i think it brings a very interesting like i this
is the part that i haven't really figured out
at all but i think it brings an interesting and
like cynical sort of view of this like love letter
to stanley kubrick like you know what i mean
where like there isn't really a like totally
blameless beautiful kubrick in this movie or
a beautiful blameless spielberg like they're
all kind of a part of this corrupt system and
like how much we can trust them and how much
good they may or may not do is like kind of all
up in the air in the end yeah i think i i think
i did read that Halliday and Morrow were supposed
to be a Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak kind of dichotomy.
Yeah, no, totally. Yeah. Totally, totally. That's
absolutely in the book, like, the idea. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think in the movie,
it's translated more towards the film thing,
but, like, that's completely there, too. Yeah,
exactly. You know what I mean? I'm sure that's,
like, written into this, like, character descriptions
that the actors were given. It's like, yeah,
you're kind of the Wozniak. Exactly, yeah. But
I think this movie, like, it has a view of the
genius and it has a view of the libertarian genius
and it has a view of the teamwork and it has
a view of the collaboration, but all of those
are tinged with some sort of like cynicism or
some sort of, some sort of power grab that we
can't necessarily trust. Sure. I feel that. I
think that's interesting. Like I think it leaves
us with like a bad taste in our mouth, no matter
kind of what interpretation I have in the end
of it. I don't know. That's, that's kind of my,
my, my two cents on that whole new conspiracy.
I definitely think like, I mean, like thinking
about it a little bit, I don't like fully understand
how it works in the plot, how Moro got his like
hand back into the company or I don't know, like,
I guess he's, he got kicked out of the company.
So maybe he's not working within the company.
He just has a way. He just knows what the back
doors are or whatever, but he would have to be
controlling. Maybe Halliday just never fucking
did paperwork and Maura was his friend who did
the paperwork for him and just wrote this into
his will. He was like, he never revisited his
will. He's like, I trusted my friend to do this
and he wrote it in and he wrote in this whole
thing of like, oh, I'm going to take over all
this when you're out of here because you don't
pay attention to this shit. You don't even care
about this shit anyway. You care about playing.
tetris for like a thousand hours i also guess
i wouldn't be surprised if mora was the person
that holiday would leave it to like even if they
did have a falling out that there's no one else
he could possibly think of there was no other
friend he had you know right right and he knew
he was gonna die one day and it was gonna have
to go to someone he wouldn't want it to end up
in ioi's hands right so right but even if he
was too short -sighted to think of all that mora
wasn't exactly exactly so he found out some way
to like actually conquer that thing he knew the
type of guy that holiday was and that there would
be something like this and he paid attention
to the video archives whatever it is you know
but he's always been in control honestly if you
think about the amount of times we actually see
holiday in the movie and then break down like
if you're gonna assume that um holiday is not
the avatar like the uh whatever the wizard Anorak.
Anorak the Great, yeah. Like if we're going to
assume that that's not Halliday and that's actually
Morrow, we only see Halliday in like three memories
or something like that, maybe even just two.
Right. And he doesn't really seem like a thinker,
dude. Like he doesn't really seem like he's actually
like, because the whole first argument is like,
do you understand what this company is doing
to the world? And he's just like, I don't care.
I just want things to go back to the way they
were when they were fun. No, he doesn't understand.
And then the other scene where Nolan's talking
to him about the payment tiers and stuff. He
just says, good coffee. There is no juice. These
are his only lines in the movie. It almost doesn't
seem like the guy thinks about anything except...
making his game like that's just there's also
there's also his date he talks about after his
date it's like she wanted to go dancing so we
saw a movie yeah that's part of the same yeah
it's part of the same scene there is no juice
but yeah it's like yeah it's just like if he's
got nothing going on in there that's really like
if that's really the only representation of that
actual person in the movie that it's like dude
there's not like a lot going on with this guy
like yeah yeah maybe he's some kind of yeah video
game genius but otherwise he's like completely
inept in pretty much every other area yeah he's
just like an avatar like yeah without what's
behind the eyes holy shit well that's awesome
fuck yeah um but enough on enough we should move
on you want to move on to the next Now that we've
talked enough about Spielberg's reckoning with
himself and the culture, let's talk about his
reckoning with his past and his family. Absolutely.
All right, back from the break. Back. All right,
The Fablemans. We just had this entire conversation
about Ready Player One being way more personally
about Spielberg and his movie career and his
impact on culture than many people may have imagined.
Yeah, and I think really it was the first that
he really started talking about his career personally
in that way in Ready Player One. And then he
followed that up with... Yeah, really revealing.
He followed that up with West Side Story, which
I think was just a longtime passion project.
Might be a movie worth talking about at some
time, but it doesn't feel nearly as connected
to Ready Player One as what follows that up,
which is The Fablemans, which is maybe the only
Spielberg movie that actually has his name credited
as the writer, or is there another one? just
the famous closing counters ai and amblin which
is his student short um so so he hasn't like
really penned most of his movies gotten credit
for writing any of his screenplays um but his
name is prominently featured on the posters for
the fable men's along with um the other writer
was it tony kushner yeah yeah And it's very much
an autobiographical movie about Spielberg's life.
Even if like, I mean, I feel like you and I both
went into it kind of feeling like it wouldn't
be quite this personal. Absolutely not. It almost
feels like it's like therapy. He's like bearing
it all and really like, you know. Totally, totally.
He's described it that way. Yeah, exactly. He
said basically that sitting down with Tony Kushner
and working through the script was essentially
the closest he's been to therapy in his life.
Around this time, his parents also both died
and stuff, so this is all tied up in that emotional
process of dealing with that and looking back
at his childhood and talking to Tony Kushner
about it for the first time and all that. It's
definitely... extremely autobiographical. And
I, I really did not. I agree. I went into it
thinking it was probably some sort of distance
thing. You know what I mean? Like all of his
movies are that maybe you'll have to decode to
find the thing that is about Spielberg. No, no,
this is literally, this kid is just doing a Spielberg
impression and it's literally just about his
actual parents who actually had this actual thing
happen to them. And he actually was filming and
actually showed his mom, like every single thing
in this movie literally actually happened. Which
is fascinating. Like, it's a really, really revealing
story for all of Spielberg's motivations for
his entire career. Like, in a very, you know,
psychoanalysis way. Yeah, sure. It validates
even more all the things we were saying about,
like, the way he treats his art in Ready Player
One. Totally. Totally. I think, like, this kind
of focus on his parents and just how much of
a dichotomy they are, like, how different. I
think Mitzi even at one point describes them
as the artist versus the scientists. Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. Mitzi is a completely unhinged, creative
kind of person who is weirdly poetic and theatrical
and flamboyant. Everybody falls in love with
her. Everybody falls in love with her. There's
something... But on the other hand, his dad is,
like, this, like, weird spurg. He's, like, this
weird autistic dude who just, like, wants to
make faster computers. I mean, but he's extremely
successful. Like, he's, you know. Oh, yeah, totally.
He's the greatest at, you know, his thing in
the world and stuff. Whereas Mitzi had to give
up all of her ambitions to, like, be, you know,
his wife and, like, raise his kids and whatever.
What's weird, too, is I think there's a bit of
a contradiction to the way they're presented
because Mitzi is presented as the artist. And
it's said many times during the movie. I think
even his sister, Reggie, says to him at one point,
you're most like Mitzi out of anyone in this
family. The idea that Mitzi is the artist in
the family, the creative. But in the same conversation,
she also admits that Mitzi's not a genius. She
admits that dad is the genius and how hard it
must be to be married to a genius and whatever.
Because when you think about it, it's like Mitzi
doesn't write music. Mitzi doesn't create anything
novel. She's just a piano player who's very good.
And Bert, the father, he creates novel things
that change the world. Right. You might not call
it art, but it's a... creative it's still a creative
process it's still like a it's still a thing
he has to discover in like an oppenheimer kind
of way and like there's even a moment when he
says when he says to um sammy the spielberg character
he says like it's kind of like what i do being
a movie director you know and it's like he's
kind of right about that yeah yeah there's something
about Spielberg's dual nature as an artist and
an engineer that makes him an ideal film director.
The fact that he would have these two influences,
you know what I mean? Yeah. The fact that he's
like really creatively driven, but he's also
engineer. He has the mind of an engineer who
can like problem solve all these things and like
create all these really ingenious solutions to
things. Totally. totally like the like the bullet
holes even though it was sort of inspired by
mitzi because she steps on the paper and puts
the hole in it and he sees that and it inspires
him to like put holes in the film to create the
bullet things whatever but you know he's like
coming up with things where like the the kids
like slam their feet down on the boards to like
make the dirt go up behind them so it looks like
a bomb went off or whatever like there's like
all these really like creative like it really
focuses on all these sort of like technical engineering
things that he's doing to like achieve the the
illusion of the film or whatever um and just
how concerned sammy is with like control and
like creating a reality from nothing like like
when he's watching his first dailies and when
they're like firing the guns he just like looks
fake totally fake right right you know yeah there's
a strong desire Like advanced. Yeah, exactly.
Not just like telling a story or conveying emotion.
Like it needs to like seduce you into its reality.
It has to feel real and whatever. Totally. And
then the other aspect of it is the whole just
discovering the affair within the footage. Like
the idea that you would find a hidden meaning.
in the footage like you would shoot all this
stuff and then later when it's in the editing
room you like realize what the story actually
is or you like find the art or whatever you find
the meaning behind the pictures or whatever you
know um that reveals a truth about his life and
whatever yeah i think i think basically like
that's that's one of the things that i think
is so interesting is like he comes to this through
like this anxiety situation that he just like
wants to recreate this train crash in order to
like have some sort of control over it or whatever
and then it's like it's really like a freudian
like process through which like he finds this
thing as a like a means to an end or whatever
like and then that becomes him like you know
what i mean and i think i think it's very interesting
because like that's that's very much like the
way that you have the dichotomy of the parents
as well you've got the mom who just like is this
like in the moment experiencing everything sort
of thing or whatever and then you've got the
dad who's kind of this analytical standing back
and looking at it you know uh from a distance
sort of thing and i think that they're they're
different parts of the process that spielberg
totally embodies at different times you know
what i mean and yeah i think like you totally
see the Mitzi in many of his sequences. You know
what I mean? And that's probably him on set,
just like improvising how we're going to shoot
this scene in the color purple in this field
or whatever. And like, he didn't, you know, come
up with an analytical shot list or whatever.
He just felt it and did it. Like that's, he's
one of these guys that does not do shot lists.
Like, I mean, sometimes he does shot lists. He
definitely doesn't storyboard. Like he just like,
apparently, and he's claimed this for years and
like people claim not to believe him, but apparently
it's like pretty legit. he just like goes to
set and then comes up with what they're going
to do. Like he just like goes to the location.
He's like, okay, well I guess the T -Rex will
come in from the left here. Like, you know what
I mean? It's like, I just find that so hard to
believe when you have to do all the special effects
shots and stuff. Yeah. I mean, for certain, for
certain things, like he, he discusses this, um,
with Paul Thomas Anderson on a, on a interview
on the director's guild podcast. It's really
interesting, but there's like a couple of sequences
that he needed to like, uh shot list in some
way or whatever but then he's like but dude like
we shot it that way and then i just let the editors
do what they would do with it um and they came
up with some really interesting things that totally
changed the shot list and whatever so i think
there's there's often a lot of improvisation
um and just sort of like feeling it out that
like allows him to come up with these sequences
that like are very emotionally present and like
uh, impressive. You know what I mean? They leave
an impression on you because they're not just
like trying to recreate something that he had
in his mind. That's at a location. That's kind
of never quite going to be the thing, but he'll
get as close as he can to whatever. It's like,
no, no, he's just in the location. He's like,
here's the thing, you know? And I also think
that like we discussed in Ready Player One, I
do think when we're watching Spielberg movies,
we are watching an analytical guy who is totally
emotionally distanced and like showing us like
an engineer at work, like creating a weird, interesting
argument with all these different interplaying
like things that are all contradictory and whatever.
I think you see that guy there, too, just as
much. Yeah. For sure. But I think him coming
to it through like this, this trauma is very
interesting, uh, because we're really like, we're
looking at like the process of creating this
type of artist. You know what I mean? Like in,
in ready player one, we're talking about like
the successor to this artist and whatever. Um,
and who this guy, but like. we're really going
back and looking at like the beginnings that
made holiday holiday in this movie. Exactly.
And they're just like so raw and real that like,
you can't help but take from it in like kind
of a traditional way. I don't think this movie
has like a, I mean, I think there are things
we're going to get to that I think are very interesting
and talking about his career and his life in
very interesting ways. But many of his movies,
I feel like have a totally subversive, you know,
it feels like it's doing this, but it's actually
doing the other thing or whatever. In this one,
I think it's like, it's kind of traditional in
a lot of ways where like, it's almost like Terrence
Malick looking at his, you know, boyhood in,
in the tree of life or something where it's just
kind of like, yeah, it's sincerely just looking
at this and being like, isn't it interesting
when your mom is this type of person and your
dad's this type of person and then you got these
brothers and then you turn out to be this type
of guy. Like, you know, it's, it's very earnestly.
kind of straightforward and then you can look
at it and be like oh dude like i can see exactly
who you are now like and that just reveals everything
about every one of these other movies because
i can just psychologically i know you like now
you know i think that's i don't know i think
that's fascinating but like we were saying i
didn't i didn't think going into this that this
was going to be that i thought and as i was watching
it i was just kind of like this isn't like Spielberg's
story. Right. And then like, as soon as it's
like, he's spying on his mom with the camera
and stuff, I was like, Oh, is this also about
De Palma and stuff? Like, is this kind of about
like all of the auteurs of the, of the, you know,
new Hollywood. And this is like kind of a stand
in for De Palma's childhood where he also like
became interested in voyeurism and videotaping
because he was videotaping his mom having a affair
that like he knew about. And it's like, Turns
out, no, that's not actually the case. It has
nothing to do with De Palma. It's just that they
both have this same thing that made them the
same weird type of perverts who had to become
film auteurs. You know what I mean? It's like,
it is a specific type of thing that fucks people
up in a perverted way that makes them voyeurists
and interested in this. type of thing that makes
them fall in love with the cameras and the technology
and the stuff. Like they're very specific people.
And it's very weird that like both of those guys
had the same experience, like falling in love
with cinema. They'd like care of age in the same
time. Yeah. And Sammy is almost like a force
that gets pushed forward by like an equal and
opposite force on each side of them. You got
like the positivity of his mother and how much
she supports his filmmaking and how like intrinsically
tied to his filmmaking. She is, which is why
he gives it up after finding out about the affair
and stuff. It's just too much to like do it because
like she gives him the camera. She's the first
person to give him the camera. Right. And she
makes a secret agreement with him to not tell
dad that you, that we're doing this. Right. Right.
And after he like catches her in the affair,
he says, I won't tell anyone. They have another
secret. And he's like holding these secrets with
his mother. Yeah. This weird. freudian bond thing
that's all wrapped up into his filmmaking but
then you have dad who is like what's weird about
dad is like he seems supportive he's like there
helping on the sets and like he's really impressed
by the films you can tell and he's like wow it's
kind of like what i do but he still kind of sees
it as just like a stepping stone to something
greater that his son should be doing. Yeah. And
he doesn't like fully support it. And there's
a bit of like resistance that gets like thrown
into the mix as well. Like, Ooh, this is something
that'll make my dad angry too. It's like rebellious
to do it as well. You know? And like, yeah. So
like, I think. I think that, like I was saying,
I think that it's interesting that he came to
this through trauma and it's kind of like him
trying to kind of help himself with this trauma
and these psychological issues that are passed
on from his mother and these secrets that he
kept with his mother against his father and all
these things that he's, he's not doing this just
because like he's a first interested in movies
and then wants to become a movie director because
he loves movies or whatever. It's like, no, no,
it's, this is like weird trauma that makes him
interested in. filmmaking through other means
and then like he comes to movies as a like something
to satisfy his kink or something you know what
i mean it's like it's it's like well it's it's
it's funny that he watches the greatest show
on earth and his reaction isn't to be like i
want a film camera on hanukkah his reaction is
i want a train yeah i want like a train set yeah
and i want to crash this train i want to like
reenact he doesn't like think about the idea
that he could turn it into a movie or something
it's not it's like the movie The Greatest Show
on Earth, it seduced him. But then it traumatized
him. Yeah, it seduced him and traumatized him,
but he didn't leave that being like, I watched
a movie and how powerful was that and I want
to watch movies. He left thinking he watched
a train accident. Right, right. You know what
I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He left having an experience
that transcended the movie and the false reality
of it. Totally, totally. That inspired him. to
get a train set. You know, like if you think
about like if his mom hadn't bought him the film
camera and stuff, he might've just been more
into engineering, like making train sets and
doing like engineering stuff. But then it became
about like documenting the train instead. Yeah.
But I think the part of it is it's not just about
documenting the train. It's about documenting
the crash. Like, it's about documenting the trauma
of this crash. Because, like, it's the crash
that scared him. And it's being scared of the
crash that made him want to recreate the crash.
And then, like, recreating the crash over and
over is going to break this. train so they buy
a camera so that he can recreate the trash just
once so that he then can watch that over and
over and keep like re -engaging with his trauma
and i think that that's really interesting i
mean like miyazaki um the anime director like
he just he discusses his youth um i forget which
character it was But he like describes like falling
in love with one of these anime characters and
like the trauma of that basically like breaking
him. That just like as a little kid, he went
through this trauma of like falling in love with
some anime character or whatever. Like that was
a false character. It was a cartoon on screen.
Like the fact that that wasn't reality and was
reality, blah, blah, blah. It was a super stimulus
that then like made him go and like get interested
in that for the rest of his career. And a bunch
of these anime. creators like share that similar
trauma i think that is like what makes them interested
in this like otaku culture or something like
but it's not just like uh like he describes it
as trauma like you know what i mean like miyazaki
doesn't i mean miyazaki specifically like hates
fucking anime nerds and shit but he hates himself
that's like part of the thing that's why he is
the person that does what he does he's a really
really bitter curmudgeon dude for them yeah yeah
yeah um but that's probably because you know
he is the person he is because he's gone through
weird childhood trauma of living in a post -modern
reality in which like as a you know four -year
-old is like greatest human connection was with
something on tv and stuff you know what i mean
it's yeah sure um and i think that's really interesting
that spielberg too like comes with this through
like it's it's it's like trying to recreate this
specific situation that's then like okay well
i could recreate that on film and then like what
does he do after that is he like then recreates
all sorts of traumatic situations on film he's
trying to scare his sisters or like scare people
like i don't know like a lot of a lot of this
is like very based in like super stimulus like
stuff trying to create something exciting or
traumatic or whatever and then like it really
gets into like yeah spying on his mother and
like discovering the hidden truths of the trauma
of his whole life and all that sort of stuff
like but it's all very trauma -based yeah but
he it's not his intent to spy on his mother just
like it's not his intent to to like recreate
the train crash in film he does think i want
a train and then he starts crashing it But it's
Mitzi who puts the idea in his head to film it
over and over so that the train won't break and
that he won't be scared of it anymore. She puts
that all in his head. Right, right. And there's
that cute joke about it. It's like, I had to
crash it a few times to get numerous takes or
whatever. And you think about that as like a
fucking Kubrick reference to some degree that
you have to crash the train over and over again
like a hundred times to get the thing or whatever.
But also that like he didn't want to make the
camping movie. That's something his dad like
basically forced him to do. Right. Like guilt
tripped him into doing. Right, right. And then
he finds out about the affair just by watching
the dailies and noticing something he didn't
when he was looking through the lens, you know?
Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. But I
think, I think that's still, I think that's still
a process of like discovering trauma in this.
Like all of these, all of these things are like
a discovery of more pain, more trauma, more whatever.
Like there's, I guess there is the triumph of
him showing his, his movie in the very end and
stuff, which we'll get to. But I think that for
me, like a lot of this has to do with like, we're
talking about like childhood trauma as the thing
that completely created him. And the thing that
he continues to chase and like do over and over
and repeat, like. It's a, it's a train crash
that he's trying to recreate over and over. And
then like his life is kind of this train crash
that he's trying to recreate over and over through
like all of his different father figures and
mother figures and all these different movies
and stuff that you can now see differently because
you've actually seen the story that created the
guy. And you can see like what he's, what his
relationship views are. I guess something that's
been brought up many times throughout his career
is his daddy issues. Like there seems to be.
a real preoccupation with father figures in his
movies. Absolutely. Or the absence of father
figures. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or the very least
distanced. But then this movie, like, shows this
whole, like, these mommy issues shit that, like,
hasn't really been super present in his movies
before. Yeah, yeah, or at least not up front.
Not up front, yeah. Definitely. It kind of reveals
a new layer that you got to go back and rewatch
his other movies to find. Or something. Yeah,
like, was the mom in E .T. like, super overbearing?
And like... She was super disinterested, though.
She was super distant. She was super distant
and disinterested. I mean, not as distant as
the dad in E .T., but... Obviously. And she's
only distanced because she's going through her
own trauma or whatever. We're not going to talk
about E .T. But still, yeah, it's like, there
might be a bunch of, like, you know, female characters
in his movies that you go back now and see Mitzi
in them and whatever, but... But yeah, the father,
just like the father dynamic, especially like,
you know, I'm the third Indiana Jones with Indy
and Sean Connery. Totally. Or catch me if you
can. There's many, there's many. Catch me if
you can. Yeah. Great distant fathers. Many examples
of like distant father. Yeah. Or just shitty
fathers or like, yeah, yeah. Lots of, lots of
daddy issues. But yeah, I agree. I think, I think
that in this movie, we're really talking about
his relationship with his mother, which now he's
getting into now that she's dead. And maybe even
just thinking about for the first time in a different
way, in a more sort of, with a little perspective,
with a little distance or something. So I think
it's interesting. Like a lot of the performances
in this movie are like very naturalistic and
believe, like, I think the guy who's playing
Spielberg, like does such a good job of like
feeling real and feeling exactly like Spielberg.
But I think Michelle Williams, who is an incredibly
naturalistic actor in many, many movies, a great,
great actor, she feels so unnatural in this movie
and weird and distant. And same goes for Paul
Dano, who may be a less naturalistic actor in
general or whatever, but still, he could be far
more naturalistic in many other roles. In this
movie, he is. I mean, he's playing Spielberg's
father as if he's completely autistic. He has
no ability to... He doesn't feel like he's a
full person at all. And Michelle Williams is
playing it as the most borderline personality.
nightmare you've ever seen in your life like
you know what i mean she's like insanely obnoxious
like i can't like i can't imagine people dealing
with like somebody like you know i mean she is
insane in this movie and she just destroys this
family like there's she's indefensible and yeah
she's beautiful and like and i guess her piano
playing is impressive or whatever but like a
lot of this movie like portrays her as like a
completely hysterical like mess who's like completely
self -interested and has no real like totally
narcissistic totally but that's that's how his
father is too because his father is like all
of his decisions are also based on like moving
his career forward and like moving the family
to a new place they don't want to go and whatever
like yeah Why is he the person who gets to choose
what happens? Why is his life the most important?
It's because he's the genius. He's creating the
novel thing. It's going to change the world.
And IBM wants him to work. It's like, why is
this stuff what's more important? Automatically.
Yeah, I agree. I think that makes a lot of sense.
Like his sister says, it's got to be hard to
live. And I think this movie is very empathetic.
to both of these characters and whatnot. Like,
I don't think Spielberg's parents died and he
was like, yeah, fuck them. I'm going to have
fucking shit on them. Like, you know what I mean?
But I think totally if you, if you watch, we
were talking in the, in the ready to play one
part about the Spielberg documentary on HBO and
the parents are interviewed in that movie. They
actually talk about this story in that movie
about, you know, that there was the friend that
the mom eventually ended up marrying and stuff
and blah, blah, blah. Like, but The whole story
is completely left out of that movie. He does
not tell that he knew that his mom was cheating
on his father with this guy and stuff like he,
the timeline is different. He doesn't mention
filming anything. He doesn't mention any of that.
And it's really in this movie for the first time.
He's kind of like, well, actually like, yeah,
we, we told a little bit of a different story.
The real story is this. Uh, I, I knew about it.
I was on my mom's side. I kept secrets from my
dad for years and whatever. Yeah. And I also
think he's like, and you know, my parents were
kind of a mess. Like he's like, he's kind of
looking at this from like a, the distance of
like having gone to therapy and been like, dude,
like they weren't angels. Like this is, they're
people, you know? And I'm, I'm empathetic to
them or whatever, but like also my mom was a
fucking disaster. You know what I mean? She was
a person who would like leave her husband for
his best friend and whatever. Like, and like,
and we loved her and she was great. And it was
so fun to hang out with her. And like, she got
a monkey and whatever. but also like there is
like a kind of distance now and an understanding
of like, Oh, maybe that's why I'm so fucked up.
Cause she's pretty crazy. And like, I'm like,
and same with him. Like he's my, like my dad
is like actually like has no ability to, you
know, and him kind of dealing with that in this
movie, I think is like, I don't know. I feel
like, I feel like this movie started off differently
than like, like, I don't think when he was writing
it, he wanted. Michelle Williams's performance
to be that crazy. But then he was like, no, actually
dude, she was pretty crazy. Why don't you go
bigger? Why don't you go weirder? Like, why don't
you be a little more off putting and stuff? And
that like becomes more like, I don't know. I
also think this is a really like important core
thing in the movie too, though, this idea of
the parents being selfish and following their
hearts because you have the whole entire Judd
Hirsch scene, his uncle. Yeah. Who shows up.
And, like, talks about how, like, art will ruin
your life. Like, art and family don't work together.
Like, it'll tear you apart. And how at the, you
know, near the end of the movie when Mitzi is,
like, has already left and I guess he's visiting
her or something like that. And they're in the
kitchen together. And she asks him to forgive
her for, you know, when she slapped him on his
back and stuff like that. But she says, like,
something along the lines of, like, you don't
owe anybody your life. Not even me. I think between
that and like the Judd Hirsch scene and stuff
like that, there's this real idea that like to
be an artist or like to be great at all or to
like achieve something or pursue a goal that's
bigger than yourself or your family, you're going
to fucking get hurt and you're going to hurt
your family and you're going to hurt people.
And like you might be the loneliest person on
earth. And like he has to be. that person to
go off to Hollywood and leave people behind and
pursue his dreams. You know what I mean? Totally.
He can't just stick around. Monica specifically
says to him, Monica, the, the very religious
Jesus freak girl that he tried that he says,
yeah, I love you at the prom and ruins everything.
She says, you know, sometimes we can't fix things.
Sometimes you have to suffer. Like, uh, Furthermore,
I think like you were saying, that maybe his
final film is a triumph, but I think you could
also argue that is also an expression of trauma
too, but just done in a way more artful way that
doesn't show it. It's very Spielbergian to show
this film that's like funny and like showing
this character as like an Adonis or whatever,
the bully. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like afterwards,
their conversation in the hallway, you can really
tell that it's like, Nah, man, I was, like, pouring
tons of my, like, frustrations about you guys
into this. Right. You know what I mean? Right.
And, like, playing this weird game, whether I
knew it or not. Right. And it really, like, got
under your skin, you know? And this is also one
of the many scenes that actually happened. Like,
you know what I mean? That literally he did make
that movie of this guy in school that hated him.
And, like, the guy did, like, come out. But I
don't think the scene where they talk in the
hallway afterwards happens. So in the hallway,
apparently, he just cried and ran away. Um, and
instead Spielberg was like, no, well now that
we're making the movie, like let's have the actual
conversation. Well, that's what he says in the
scene too. He's like, I don't know why I did
it. Like maybe I did it to make my movie better.
I don't know. You know, like the one scene in
the movie that didn't really happen is the scene
where the character is like basically giving
his treatise about how he sees his art. It's
not, it's like almost a bit of a mystery to him
as well. You know? Yeah. He's like, not really
sure why he did it. He's not really sure why
he made those decisions. Yeah. But largely it's
based on trauma. Yeah, exactly. Like largely
it's like, I made these decisions because of
psychological trauma that happened to me when
I was five years old. And like, that's why, you
know what I mean? Which is like very different
from like, you know, what you would think I would
be saying, like after that ready player one conversation,
it's a very different way of thinking about,
you know, filmmaking. It's like. it's hard to
think of the same guy who's sitting back and
doing like a very analytical, like take on his
whole career and blah, blah, blah. But like,
these are the same guy. Cause there's the mom
and there's the dad. Um, it was very much a Mitzi
move to like pour all that, like frustration
and emotion and trauma into the work about those
bullies and whatever. But like, it was done in
a way that was really smart and well engineered
and like obfuscated. Exactly. Not obvious. Like
something that only the bullies would get. You
know what I mean? Totally. Totally. And I think
one of the things that I think is really interesting
about that scene is the way that it kind of affects
the rest of Spielberg's career. Because to me,
kind of the underlined point of that scene is
like, dude, when Spielberg makes a movie about
somebody and puts them on a pedestal, he doesn't
always fucking put them on a pedestal. You know
what I mean? Yeah, exactly. That doesn't mean
he likes them. People like would never before
this movie would never assume that Spielberg
would make a movie about somebody and say, this
is a great person. And then also be totally undermining
that with every single scene in the movie. I
think we did a pretty good job of describing
how he did that in Schindler's List. Pretended
he was making a movie about this great guy Schindler,
but actually was making a movie about this banal
piece of shit Schindler. But I think that he
absolutely does that many times in his career.
I've got a bunch of other. you know examples
i kind of want to bring up but also would like
to leave but i think that this movie completely
after you know we said like watching ready player
one i felt very validated in my you know view
of spielberg and his movies and the way that
he talks about things then watching this one
was just kind of like oh yeah well that was the
whole point like the whole like final statement
of this movie is just like yeah dude like if
i put something on a pedestal like it's not for
I don't know. There's always layers. You know
what I mean? There's always layers and there's
the movie is the thing that's first. And what
the movie can be is an engineered conversation
about something. It can be an emotional, you
know, experience of something. It's really, it
should be both, but the, it's not just to kind
of say something about something that everybody
understands, you know, it's about to, it's about
like really, it's about the process of experiencing
and engaging with that. art form that he just
like has a psychological connection with like
a freudian connection yeah when you say this
whole thing about like putting someone on a pedestal
and whether or not he actually respects them
like the john ford scene at the end is like amazing
oh yeah yeah it's such a like it's such an interesting
scene that i still don't really have entirely
unpacked dude i mean i'll tell you what spielberg
has to say about it is like literally that's
word for word what happened when he met john
ford of course of course so it's maybe like you
know it was it was actually like his uncle's
friend that like was the meeting that he was
supposed to go to but like across the hall was
john ford and he like went to this meeting with
this guy and this guy was like literally was
like i know your uncle set me up with you but
like you don't want to talk to me i'm just like
you know you want to talk to is this guy like
just wait till he gets in it's fine and then
he like figured out it was john ford like because
they just kept calling him jack apparently where's
the horizon line Yeah, but that's literally word
for word, according to Spielberg, who's a storyteller.
But he claims that's word for word what happened.
And I've actually heard him tell that story before,
and it was pretty close. There's something really
interesting about that. That ending, the idea
that that was word for word is really beautiful
because it does just seem so poetic when you
connect it to the rest of the themes of the movie
and that scene in the hallway with the bully.
Because John Ford is openly admitting to the
fact that his movies don't mean anything. It's
all based on where the horizon line is. It's
something really banal. It's something really
superficial that's determining his aesthetic
quality. What do you know about art? I would
say part of this, dude, is the real... cohesion
of the mother and father there you know what
i mean it's really like dude you know i know
your mom was like this thing to get you away
from your dad or whatever but like really it's
just there's these rules and it's this thing
and it's engineering and stuff i mean he already
knows this to a certain degree like because he's
been engineering these projects and whatever
But well, he's actually trying to describe what's
happening in the painting. And he's just like,
no. Yeah. Like, talk about the engineering. Talk
about the design. Like, exactly. Exactly. The
perspective. Where's the horizon line? It's like
perspective. Perspective is important. You don't
just shoot something flat. It has to be dynamic.
There has to be like, you know. Yeah. And it's
like, yeah, it's a simple lesson that like is
kind of like superficial and banal, but also
super meaningful. It actually does open your
eyes to something really simple but effective
about how art works. Right. Totally. Totally.
It's like the horizon line's low, therefore the
perspective we're getting on these characters
changes and says something about them. It's evocative
in some way. But I like that he doesn't have
any rules either. It's just boring and interesting
as shit. Yeah, exactly. And then the final little
joke to just like shift the horizon line, the
last shot or whatever. It's very cute. It's such
a like cute ending. Yeah. That apparently was
Spielberg trying to, he like asked his cam op
to do it. And the cam operator just like did
it way too smoothly. And he was like, all right,
fuck you. I'll do it. And then he tried to do
it, but he also did it way too smoothly. So they
had some digital people like zoom it in 80, like
8 % and make it more jittery. That's a digital
jitter to make it less smooth. That's really
funny. Yeah. I mean like that. It's such a like,
I couldn't get to the authenticness at this point
of being just a kid with a camera. So I had to
get like ILM to come in and digitally like enhance
my, yeah. Digitally de -hance the shot. Which
almost seems like, dude, that's almost, that
almost seems like a made up story that is making
some sort of great point. You know what I mean?
Which Spielberg I think does. It does make a
great point. Yeah. But I think it's, I think
it's pretty fascinating. Like it, That's an interesting
guy. In a lot of ways, we just covered the whole
movie. But there are a lot of awesome details
in this movie. I really like how... You know
how Ready Player One barely references Spielberg's
own work? But The Fableman's references his own
work a lot. Okay. Like where? I mean, there's
the closet from E .T. They're in the closet when
he makes the ghost come out of the closet or
whatever. It's like they're not like... direct
no no i totally i totally know what you're saying
references yeah yeah but like the the closet
is the closet from et and like the when when
mitzi puts all the kids in the car to drive towards
the tornado and they stop at the intersection
all the carts go by that's close encounters and
yeah you know like when when they're like in
the desert collecting the scorpions that's indiana
jones and like like when they're on the beach
that's jaws and you know what i mean like yeah
but this is the thing man is like i think i think
these are conversations that he had with toady
coaster and chose the ones that like actually
did inspire things and whatever but like i think
i think like it's it's almost the opposite it's
almost like no those were all referencing this
You know, that's what's so interesting about
this movie is because I think a lot of this is
literally just like his literal real journals.
And it's like, oh, let's just include the shit
that like always inspired me to like become all
these things. So like it does reveal all this.
I love that about it. It's like the best type
of reference. You know what I mean? um yeah exactly
because it's not even a it's just like uh you
know this is kind of why these movies exist and
like now you can kind of go back and watch and
that's that's like what i was saying about ready
player one being like kind of like an eyes wide
shut that's like giving you a new perspective
on his career like this is the like step further
than that that like kubrick never even got to
of just kind of like yo here's my therapy like
tapes you know what i mean here's just like literally
all of me now so like i'm not even hiding anything
anymore like you can find even more Then I tried
to put in there, in there. Uh, if you actually,
I don't know. I like that. It's a, it's an interesting
approach for somebody who's been very guarded
their whole career. Never told this story, never
talked about like most of these things. I mean,
he's, he's always talked in sound bites and like
really, you know, the first, the Spielberg documentary
was really like a. pretty revealing thing um
when it came out during ready player one and
yeah i mean like his parents weren't like this
is so much more obviously sorry if he's anything
like his parents they're not they're holding
secrets they're not like opening their hearts
yeah like mitzi like seems like the kind of person
who's open but she's not she's holding secrets
she's lying she's like she's a borderline personality
like narcissist like crazy person who's completely
i really like how um grandma fableman at one
point says like deep down inside of me is none
of your business i love how she like doesn't
clean the table and stuff they just like pick
up the uh the plastic cover and just throw it
all out. Yeah. Yeah. It's she, she like refuses
all of the jobs of like homemaker and whatever.
And, and, you know, like, and mother and whatever,
like she's, she's totally just like another one
of the kids. And like, that's fine because dad's
so in love with her. She buys, she, she buys
that monkey and calls it Denny. Yeah. That was
like a weird psychological punishment. Yeah.
Yeah. That was another interesting moment, too,
that I think is sort of really layered as well,
is when Mitzi is talking about the monkey at
dinner, and she's like, they know important stuff,
and they're not letting us in on it. And then
Bert's like, self -possession. And she's like,
right, they belong to themselves. Which also
connects to the whole, you don't owe your life
to anyone, not even me, and the whole keeping
secrets, and that only you know yourself, and
no one will ever truly know you, and stuff like
that. It's like the rules of attraction all of
a sudden. It's the rules of attraction all of
a sudden. Nobody knows anybody. Nope. That's
kind of true. That's one of the scary things
about life in general, making connections. I
think that's something that Spielberg fears.
I know he eventually married and had kids and
got a divorce. Did he marry again? I don't know.
He seems like the kind of person who's had sort
of tumultuous personal relationships and has
had a hard time balancing those out with his
career. Certainly. I mean, you got way into that
in Hook. Yeah, once again, reference Hook. But
it's a scary thing. The idea that you wouldn't
know your parents. You think you know your mother
or you know your father or whatever, and then
they have this dark secret. completely upends
your entire reality and how you thought about
them and learning to accept that kind of thing
even if you do like that's a trauma that's like
a fear he'll have his entire life of just like
never truly knowing people and like maybe not
even ever truly knowing himself not being like
incredibly certain why he's making certain decisions
he is totally totally even his entire thing with
monica is so desperate dude just like I don't
know. Wanting to be her girlfriend and saying
I love you and whatever. I don't know. I think
that's normal. She was hot. I mean, sure, but...
No, yeah, I think there's plenty there with the...
He didn't, he didn't know her very, like he was
dating for two weeks, took her to prom, said,
I love you. And like, it was like trying to like
create some kind of like idea in his head that
she was the one for him and that she'd like go
somewhere. And it's like totally delusional,
you know? Yeah, no, of course. And it's like,
it comes from this sort of, it comes from his
traumas and fear surrounding his parents and
their divorce and like the not knowing people
and connecting to people and just really like
needing that, the validation from someone that
like something is real or whatever. Yeah. But
he continually gets validation through his filmmaking
now. That's one of the things that he's continually
validated for. I love that after the movie, she's
looking for him. And Sheila can't find him. He's
in the hallway with the bully. But she's just
like, fuck, where'd he go? I do want to get married.
I like that Spielberg's making the movie. And
he's like, yeah, make that bitch come back. That's
so funny. Yeah. That's definitely some wish fulfillment
right there. There's gotta be some here and there.
And even though it's like not a big part of the
movie directly, just like the dad's whole involvement
with IBM and stuff is really like speaks when
you talk about like, I don't know, like when
I, when I think like IOI, I think IBM, you know,
whatever. Yeah. Or, like, I think IBM, and I
think about 2001 even or whatever. You know,
it's just like there's so many weird things about,
like, his dad's involvement with IBM. Yeah, with,
like, the most sinister, like, company that helped
kill the Jews. Like, you know what I mean? Like,
20 years after they were, like, collaborating
with the Nazis to organize the Holocaust, and
his dad is very much an ICME character. Like,
yeah, I mean, I think that's something that I'm
sure he's had to contend with. I don't think
he's, you know, really talking about that too
much in this movie or whatever. But I think that
there's an understanding that Spielberg has and
Kubrick has and that Spielberg has of Kubrick's
work and whatnot, that there's something that
connects those guys ideologically, especially
their understanding of Silicon Valley as fucking
evil, you know, people. Even if, I don't know,
even if he likes his father or whatever, it's
like, it's still like, you know, he's got to
know that's evil, right? Like helping to birth
the Antichrist that is. the internet i don't
know yeah well i mean his father's like a schindler
as well i guess or something i don't know it's
just like i mean we contain multitudes we're
paradoxes you know yeah you know hitler had loved
ones too i guess like i know i know kanye was
one of them who kanye oh kanye well you can't
just love something you also have to take care
of it Yeah, that's the two things, right? That's
the mom and the dad. Exactly. You can't just
take care of it and not love it either, though.
I think because of how sincere, earnest, and
hard on its sleeve this movie is, it doesn't
obfuscate as much. It really is so... It's almost
the thing people have criticized Spielberg for
doing his whole career. You know? It's what people
have criticized him for doing his whole career?
It's just earnest and sincere, yeah. I don't
think it obfuscates a deeper meaning in the way
that Ready Player One does or most of his movies.
But I might be wrong. It could be one of the
most complex movies he's made. Yeah, I mean,
I think I think it is. I think it is one of the
most complex movies he's made. But I think that
he's searching with it. You know what I mean?
I think that we as the audience are with Spielberg
kind of looking at his whole life and trying
to like find these things. And yeah, like it's
the life that he's created as the representation
of his life. It's not his real life. And that
brings a, you know, layer of like, well, then
there's even more meaning in all of these things
that probably connects to what he's trying to
say about his real life and his the creation
of an artist. You know what I mean? The things
that are necessary to create the ingredients
that are necessary to create an artist. Yeah,
exactly. I mean, I guess that's like a pretty
common refrain. Is that like art kind of comes
from pain or that like. you know it's like the
struggle i think i think it comes from a psychological
process like you know what i mean that's that's
the thing that i think is so interesting is that
it's like it's a trauma response thing it's a
self -soothing it's a it's a recreating the trauma
in order to re -experience the trauma in order
to have control over the trauma it's like the
same reason that people like you know self -mutilate
or something like you know what i mean they're
like all sorts of toxic problems it's the reason
that you like you know, beat your kids because
you were beat as a kid or something. The same
processes of like childhood trauma creates somebody
who wants to create the childhood trauma or whatever.
It's just that this got filtered in this very
specific way by these very specific people in
this very specific time and this very specific
place that allows to create this like weird fucking
anomaly person that like can do this thing. And
I think that's what's interesting when we were
talking about Ready Player One is like. we don't
have any new interesting things coming out today
like who like what sort of setting creates this
like allows for the rise of these artists you
know what i mean to like create these real original
works and stuff and i think that's a great discussion
of that and i think this is really the discussion
not so much of like what sort of time and place
uh allows for those artists but like what creates
the artists themselves you know what i mean and
like he's kind of just like yeah i can't really
tell you but like i could tell you my fucking
story and like i've got my you know theories
about it whatever but then and then like and
then i think he's just like yo let's just be
unblinkingly honest about this story actually
like let's really like be really self -critical
about this story let's really own up to like
the things that i did that were shitty and like
the way that my mom's shitty too actually like
i she's the person i love most in the world but
let's be really fucking honest about this Yeah,
dude. You should probably act a little more off
-putting because everybody who ever met my mom
was kind of off -putting. Every woman who ever
met my mom was kind of off -put by her. Yeah,
yeah. I think that's why I really wanted to pair
these movies for that reason. I think they're
the most personal, the most self -referential
of his films. far um and reveal huge amounts
of what came before and whatever but like they're
also completely different in so many different
ways it's almost like ready player one's the
dad movie and fableman's is the mom movie or
something you know what i mean um yeah yeah that
makes sense there's his dad and there's daddy
kubrick and whatever but there's his mom and
there's mommy i don't know fucking trefo properly
um but there's oh yeah trefo and fucking Close
Encounters and stuff. We've got to do a Close
Encounter. We've got to do a lot of Spielberg
episodes. Hopefully they'll be more concise than
this one. I was all over the place. How are you
feeling about this? I'm feeling okay about this.
Well, I hope you all enjoyed it. Would you say
that's that? I'd say that's that, Magisman. Thank
you.