No, no, no, man. Man… We’re only halfway there. I’ll see you at the beginning, friend. I’m willing to die too. I want to make movies out of
blood— the origin— sperm, and tears. and purpose are still a total mystery. I do believe it went out. I got- I got- I got to talking to much I clean forgot about… uh. Dude, that doesn't make
any sense. What? I’ll dance a jig, I swear to Christ. White
lines in the middle of the road. As long as the bar’s
Philadelphia. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything
but the little fishies. Welcome to Everything
But the Little Fishies. Welcome. We're here today
to talk about Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
from 1971 and Schindler's List from 1993. And
joining us today is our longtime friend and amazing
artist and troubadour, Heavy Meadow. Hey, gang.
Good to be here. Yeah, yeah. Really good to have
you, man. I'm so stoked. He's a wandering bard
and a lover of the earth. And today he's our...
Wandering Jew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a wandering
Jew. You're our Jewish consultant. Consultant
on Jewish affairs. Because we're getting into
the Holocaust and chocolate factories. Exactly.
Exactly. Yep. So, yeah, I guess we're going to
start with Wonka. Is that the plan? Yeah, yeah.
Chronological baby. All right. Start with Wonka.
And also, you know, maybe better to start with
the sweet before we get into the... Less sweet.
Yeah. More intense. I mean, you know, it's actually,
it's interesting. I watched them in that order
as well. I watched Wonka and then I watched Schindler's
List. And just coming to your spot today. and
seeing on the TV just a little bit of that Wonka
footage of like what the factory, the aesthetic
of the factory looked like, I actually found
myself wishing I'd watched Wonka second. Okay.
Because, you know, Schindler's List like conditions
a sort of like sensitivity to what like the deepest
horrors of this like imperial system entail,
but they're like these aesthetic notes of it
that radiate out in every direction. totally
and especially that front gate and like but like
yeah the front gate i'm just like but anyway
we'll get into that when we do but that was like
weird i was like shit i should have watched wonka
second but anyway hey man they're odd movies
to pair and i think i think before we get into
um to get into the nitty -gritty of why we would
pair them let's just you know get into wonka
on its own terms um heavy like How long has it
been since you've seen Willy Wonka? Like, was
it the last time when you were a kid? Yeah. How
did this revisit feel? I remember seeing Wonka,
I believe, once. Or maybe more than once. But,
like, one time in particular, I was in Nova Scotia
with my family on a trip. And the place we were
staying had a copy of Willy Wonka. And I remember
watching it then. And I was probably 10 years
old. I thought it was, you know, I had really
fond memories of it, in part because Gene Wilder
was definitely a pretty big presence for me growing
up. We had a copy of Young Frankenstein that
I watched a bunch of times. Nice, nice. And so,
yeah, so I always had these fond memories of
that movie. And of course, there are some genuinely
iconic melodies and songs from that that have
really thrived in the public. uh, uh, memory
and imagination. Um, and, uh, and I have to say,
seeing it this time around, I was like, I was
blown away. It is so weird. It's so weird. It's
so fucking weird. I mean, there's, there's so
much to say about it, but it's, it's, it's a
total masterpiece and it's for one, it's extremely
weird. And two, it is extremely bleak. Yeah,
it's the darkest fucking movie. It's like, yeah,
it keeps you up at night, bleak. I mean, it's
like almost bleaker than Schindler's List. At
least the motivations of the central character
are as, you know, ambiguous. Just weird. Dude,
so I recently did... Charlie and the Chocolate
Factory, the book again and whatnot. And, like,
just comparing that book to the movie, I really
think, like, a lot of that weirdness, like, completely
comes from Gene Wilder. Like, I think, like,
the book is weird in certain ways or whatever,
but, like, the way that Gene Wilder does his
Gene Wilder thing in that movie, like, completely
changes, like, how that story, like, comes off.
There's, like, other changes to the actual text
and whatnot, but, like... I was listening to
it on audiobook, and it was being read by Eric
Idle. And he was reading the poem on the ferry.
When they're on the ferry and they go down and
they're like, what is the poem? There is no earthly
way of knowing. Exactly. Where exactly we are
going, blah, blah, blah. That crazy thing that
gets insane by the end of it. It's the exact
same words in the book. And hearing Eric Idle
sort of reading it was just kind of like, Oh,
this is kind of like a cute, weird, funny, like,
it's kind of scary, but it's mostly, like, whimsical
and funny. When Gene Wilder does it, it really
feels like a scene out of, like, Henry Portrait
of a Serial Killer or something, where he's just,
like, really bearing his true self to his victim
before he fucking kills him. Like, this is actually
insane. Like, it's totally scary, and he's scaring
the shit out of Mark Purpose. That is totally
insane, yeah. And it's the same text. It's just,
like, it's Gene Wilder turning, I mean, and maybe
the director, too. It's a scary, it's... The
way it's shot is scary and everything, but it's
really something that only Gene Wilder could
do is screaming those lines and having it, like,
still kind of play like this is a kid's movie,
but, like, it really feels like a serial killer
movie to me, like, especially on rewatch. Like,
Gene Wilder's character is, I mean, so one of
the big, you know, stories they tell about Gene
Wilder's casting on this movie was that he had
his one stipulation was, like, the way that he
introduced the character or something. His thing
was that he would come out and hobble and whatever
and then fall and do this cartwheel. Somersault.
Somersault. And after that point, nobody would
ever be able to trust this character again. He's
like, that's how I want to introduce this so
that there's always this distrust of this character.
And I think that that distrust of the character
thing, though... There's some of that in the
book and whatever, like the movie really, that's
like the main focus of the movie. And like, I
feel like that's kind of an idea that's attributed
to Gene Wilder now. And through that story and
stuff. I would also say that I reread the book
as well. And I would definitely say that Willy
Wonka's character in the book is a far more sincere
character. He's very jolly and fun. And he's,
yeah, he's portrayed as a whimsical guy. And
the differences are not just in Gene Wilder's
performances, but also just in the script or
whatever. Yeah, yeah. To get into a little bit
of it, Roald Dahl is credited for writing the
screenplay, but he didn't actually finish it.
And a lot of it was rewritten by a guy named
David Seltzer. Okay. David Seltzer is the one
who put in all of those... In the movie, he's
always referencing Shakespeare and stuff. He
says a bunch of Shakespeare. He says all these
old proverbs and things like that. None of that's
in the book. That was all stuff added by David
Seltzer. Interesting. The classical music reference
on the piano. I forget who it was. The classical
music on the piano is Mozart, but Miss TV accidentally
thinks it's... Rachmaninoff. He very arrogantly
says it's Rachmaninoff, but it's Mozart. That
was so funny. Yeah, Rachmaninoff. Rachmaninoff.
That was so funny. Yeah, yeah, but there's tons
of shit like that in the movie. Yes. That does
happen in Shameless, too. It absolutely does
happen in Shameless. Yeah, I know. And they think
it's Mozart. No, they think it's Mozart, but
it's Bach. They think it's Mozart. Is this Bach?
Is this Bach? He's like, it's Mozart. It's not
Mozart. It's Bach. Yeah, wild. So that happens
in both movies. Yeah, it's really weird. Yeah,
so strange. But to get back to what I was saying,
the other biggest difference in the script is
the entire Slugworth plot. In the book, Willy
Wonka doesn't hire this guy to pretend he's Slugworth
to try to trick these kids into selling out his
secrets. Right. There's no big test or anything
in the end. That's all added by David Seltzer.
And that and the contract at the beginning, the
paperwork. Yeah, the contract at the beginning,
and also the entire scene where Charlie and Joe
steal fizzy lifting drinks. So basically, the
book actually has no conflict, actually. And,
like, Charlie is, like, a perfect, banal character
who never makes a single mistake. Right. And
it's a morality tale about just, like, how these
kids don't deserve anything because they're greedy
and rude. Right. I mean, that's really how the
book plays, like, is, like, this is just an old
guy who hates fucking children, and he just wrote
a fantasy about, like... punishing these kids
for yeah like it's a guy who went to too many
movie theaters and found gum under his seat and
was just like fuck this I fucking hate those
fucking gum chewers it's such a specific thing
to hate is gum chewing but it's like a huge part
of the book is explaining why gum chewing is
disgusting it's just like an old crotchety guy
like talking about his problems with the world
and this next new generation and stuff and like
Wonka's kind of a like fantasy fulfillment for
him yeah um So if I may just sort of like fulfill
my role here and put on my JFAM analysis lens,
looking at the sort of like almost grim like
fairy tale of Willy Wonka as told through Roald
Dahl, like just it's like a fairy tale of sorts.
There's not a lot of like complexity and like.
tension and and paradox and um and like anxiety
that um that like comes through in the in the
original text by this like anglo -saxon this
like beloved uh anglo -saxon children's author
but then it gets in the hands of someone named
seltzer and and gene wilder two members of the
tribe and suddenly it gets in the hands of the
jews yeah it gets in the hands of the jews exactly
and and there's just like No way for like a Jew
not to put some sort of like lens of analysis
in there and have some sort of broader perspective
that kind of sees through the. the farce of this,
like, child's fairy tale and actually sees so
much, like, depravity in, like, candy culture,
basically. Totally. Totally. And can't help—
Well, it's capitalism, right? Capitalism. Candy
culture, i .e. capitalism. Wonka's like a Randian
hero, dude. He's like a master of capitalism.
A hundred percent. Genius, you know what I mean?
Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's so funny because—
Just as an aside, Roald Dahl did not like the
Jews. I know, yeah. He goes on record as saying,
now this is hilarious, but he goes on record
as saying, you have to admit, there's something
inherently detestable about the Jews. I mean,
even a stinker like Hitler didn't pick on them
for no reason. That's like verbatim. That's very
funny. A stinker like Hitler didn't pick on them
for no reason. And so it's just this like, you
know, this sort of like poetic irony, justice,
revenge, you might say, that really kind of like
the most culturally iconic expression of. that
work of Roald Dahl's. I mean, the book still
stands on its own, but this, especially with
like the music and like Gene Wilder as like the
OG Wonka and, and some greats have tried to step
into those shoes and have failed miserably. Um,
and, um, and so it like, it sort of stands as
like a Jewish work. I know dude, it totally is.
It is a Jewish work. source material in that
way. Yeah, and it's against the anti -Semitic
creator. It's an antagonistic relationship with
the source creator, which was Hitler's entire
issue, was that the Jew wouldn't stop interrogating
culture. And it was just like... Just asking
way too many questions. It's hard to rewrite
history. Yeah, yeah. Just didn't want these fucking
questions. And, like, the books that were all
burned in those early days were, like, a lot
of them were, like, these books around, like,
you know, gender expression by this guy, Magnus
Hirschfeld, who was this Jewish, this queer Jewish
intellectual scholar who was writing this, like,
groundbreaking shit that even today is, like,
you know, like... played an important role as
like the intellectual foundation of today, just
like this and Freud, the same, you know, just
this interrogation and actually marks the same
and interrogation of the material conditions.
Um, and just like the powerful being like, you
know what? Like we want a myth. We don't want
these questions. And, um, and so, uh, Roald Dahl
makes Charlie and the chocolate factory and Hitler
makes the third rank. And, um, and like, and
then the Jew like gives their take with, Charlie
and the Chocolate Factory, and then Schindler's
List. But I wanted to say, just to sort of counterpoint
to what you were saying about the thing getting
weird with Gene Wilder, I found the opening sequence
before Gene Wilder even appears to be a revelation.
It's in the first 45 minutes. It's so much of
the movie. It's a lot of the movie, and it is
so fucking... It's actually 44 minutes on the
dot. That's when he shows up. No shit. Wild.
It's a long time. It's a long time. The movie
accomplishes a lot in those scenes. The movie's
already really, really mean at that point. Yeah,
and deep and has these interesting dynamics,
class dynamics mostly. Totally. There was something
that just felt really modern and post -modern
about the aesthetic when they're introducing
the different characters and almost like, you
know, almost like, You know, a character introduction
montage that I sort of more associate with, like,
I don't know, the Royal Tenenbaums or some shit.
Yeah, dude. You know what I'm saying? It's so
wonderfully made. It's so well made. I mean...
The storytelling was... The entire movie is,
but the first 44 minutes before Wonka shows up,
it's, yeah, it's like a masterclass of... it's
set up and it really is it's like it's already
setting up like all of the all of the themes
and stuff that that are then worked out in the
chocolate factory as well i mean like it's like
we were talking about you know wanka as a randian
hero or whatever and like i think the beginning
of this movie is very much like a libertarian
sort of view of things where like you've got
grandpa joe whatever and the whole family like
sleeping on this bed and whatever just because
like They're lazy, kind of. As soon as he's got
a reason to get up, it's like, oh, he can walk
fine. He's been sitting here for years just because
he could live off of his grandson and continue
this lazy life of the... Interesting. It's pretty
well said now that Grandpa Joe is an evil person.
That's a common take. Really? To me, I feel like
there's some part of Grandpa Joe that has to
do with addiction and alcoholism or something.
um in the movie there's there's the whole conversation
about buying his cigarettes and whatever um when
he's like i don't need the cigarettes or pipe
tobacco tobacco right he's like no i don't need
it i don't deserve it and like there's something
there about like him needing an addictive substance
while he's also like not contributing and sitting
in bed and whatever and there's like there's
some i don't know there's some like and then
they win the lottery yeah yeah and then they
win the lottery Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then like
that, then it's like, well, you've got this versus
this other archetype and this other archetype
and this other archetype. And like, they are
just as much kind of cartoons of the poor as
like, as Veruca Salt is. Yeah. Yeah. The gluttonous
and Veruca Salt is of the wealthy and all the
greedy. Yeah. No, just gum chewing. That's a
gum chewing thing could be thought of as like.
compulsive behavior sort of thing just like any
sort of repetitive behavior you could say like
it could even be like promiscuity or whatever
it could like be that type of archetype for me
it was like the archetype of just like the relentlessly
like shallow trendster who like is so obsessed
with like her best friend um who she's also like
beating in competition she's vindictive she's
vindictive super vindictive every time violet
beauregard uh has an opportunity to speak to
the camera she like dishes it out out of her
alleged best friend who you never see but that's
just like such a wonderful I beat her gum chewing.
And then she brings her up like two or three.
Yeah. It's just like, it's just so fun. And it's
like, it's, it's smaller than the criticism of
like Augustus gloops, gluttony or, or, or, or
like Mike TV's like media addiction. But it's,
yeah, it's, it's just as misanthropic. I mean,
the whole thing is just deeply misanthropic.
You're right. And I mean, I guess Grandpa Joe
and Charlie are also misanthropic in the sense
that they're kind of just like thinking about
how they can get their real golden ticket, get
their way out. I mean, you know, Charlie is like
the only one of these children who really like
puts his family before himself. Like he's a selfless
person who actually like works. Like in the book,
Charlie's dad is there and his dad works. But
in the movie, Charlie and his mom both work.
There is no dad in the movie, right? There's
no dad in the movie. Interesting. In the book,
there's a dad and he works at a toothpaste factory.
He does a really monotonous assembly line job
where he puts toothpaste caps on. He gets a piddling
amount of money to support the family. They eat
bread and cabbage soup. In the movie, charlie's
mom does like a laundry thing she like you know
you see her like doing people's laundry so she
has a job there and then charlie has like a paper
boy job but like they can barely put bread on
the table when charlie gets the bread it's like
oh he's been actually like putting in more effort
to bring in a little extra money on the side
and stuff totally yeah yeah yeah i mean charlie
is charlie is portrayed as definitely being like
a very good kid in in both the movie and the
book but in the movie it's like he goes really
above and beyond and like puts himself first
yeah and then with the slug word thing in the
end which which is honestly like i think betrays
the unreality of charlie and by my mind that
it's like they were just like super abused by
this fucking crazed dingbat um willie wonka and
like this is their like golden ticket no like
proverbially speaking um the their golden ticket
to make some money off the situation now that
they've just like gotten the stiff arm no instead
they start with their abuser yeah but but then
charlie bucket like sides with his abuser uh
in a way that is kind of um yeah yeah exactly
it's it's it's it's either not realistic or or
or or like like betrays the unreality unreality
yeah or or if it's or it's just like yeah fascistic
Like hero worship, basically. Like cult leader
status. Fucking Willy Wonka is just so powerful
that Charlie can't bear to betray the very idea
of him. No, exactly. I think that part of the
thing is the movie is going through this process
where Charlie's kind of being brainwashed by
this capitalist sort of Randian hero and whatever.
And all of the people that Charlie kind of hates,
you know what I mean? Like all these other kids
and shit, they're getting all theirs. And then
he feels like he's... Like, I don't know. There's,
there's some. Charlie, Charlie gets to be morally
superior by like having no individuality. Like
he, he is a banal Eichmann, you know what I mean?
Who kind of like just as a product of his environment,
like all those other kids, like even though they're
brats and you can say whatever you want about
them morally, they're all individuals. They're
getting theirs. They know who they are and what
they like and what they want. They don't let
their parents talk down to them or run their
lives. They have all their parents on the end
of their chains, you know? Yeah. And Charlie
is just a fucking doormat, dude. Yeah. He's just
like... And that's why... Like if you're just
going to jump to the ending, which is fine, we
can keep going back and forth, but that's why
I think the ending is like the most sinister
fucking thing ever. Like when he becomes the
fatherly figure and he says, it was all a test
and you won. He takes him into the elevator whenever
this is the, like the last time I watched this
movie, like a couple of years ago, this, like
this part really dawned on me as being like sinister
and like, and satanic. Where he brings Charlie
into this thing, and he brings him onto this
device that most represents freedom out of anything,
right? He can go anywhere, do anything. Just
a giant glass elevator in the sky. It's a glass
box, so it's completely transparent and all this
stuff. And then proceeds to tell Charlie that
he needed to find a child, specifically a child
who would do everything the way he does it, because
a grown -up would want to do everything his way,
not mine. I had to find a loving, honest child
who I could tell all my precious candy -making
secrets. And it's just, like, it's this idea
that, like, capitalism and, like, the gears of
it, it needs these sort of banal Eichmanns to
keep the thing moving forward. That, like, it's
not going to continue if it's, like, run by Veruca
Salt or something. She's going to do something
different, you know? She might run it into the
ground or, like, completely change. the motive
or whatever, but Charlie's willing to be brainwashed
by the cult of Wonka and just go along with it
and do everything the way Wonka did it, you know,
because he's just so bewildered by that, like
extravagance, you know what I mean? He's just
like totally seduced by capitalism and like,
like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And,
and, and, and what I think. It's just so, like,
trenchant and, like, touching and poetic and
subtle about this movie is, like, the image of
capitalism as candy culture. Totally. That it's
just, like, it creates, it's this weird thing
where you're, like. Just kind of where I was
when I was a kid, it was just like in one ear
at the other. I'm like, who wouldn't want like
a lifetime worth of candy? That's the greatest
thing ever. But then like as an adult who's like
realizes kind of like how dangerous candy is
and like how like it can be great, but like you
definitely don't want too much of it. It's just
like this, the image of just like infinite candy.
And then this kid is put in this position of
like. Yeah, perpetuating this regime of candy
where people just basically in a country with
like rampant diabetes and obesity and all and
on and on. You just need this like little henchman
who's just like so enamored of the very idea
of this like sweetness that and the sweet kid
to carry forth this really devastating regime.
I mean, like. Yeah, I mean, there's slave labor.
Oh, one, there's 100 % slave labor with the Oompa
Loompas. But also, yeah, I mean, just like the
sugar lobby and how much it's cost the society
with diabetes and heart disease and just obesity.
So much shit. And that's such a strange thing
about this particular moment. Like, how? like
how concentrated sugar is and how available it
is in every conceivable variety. And it just
proliferates as capitalism like intensifies and,
and the whole like blood sugar, like the sugar
rush is like also a mirror of capitalism that
you like, you get on a high and then you crash.
I mean, it just kind of like it's, it's shaped
like capitalism, what it does to your bloodstream
and, and, and to your system. And so. the resonance
there with like charlie being so enamored of
this thing that like as an adult i'm kind of
like i think i think it's also it's also that
like it's his class as well like you know what
i mean it's like it's going to be the poor neighborhoods
that are most hit by just like diabetes and shit
and whatever and like our modern sort of like
mcdonald's and candy sort of culture where it's
like this is what's cheap this is what's available
this is The most calories you can get in like
one, you know, in for 10 cents is this like chocolate
bar that Charlie just like he's starving. And
then he just like shoves two chocolate bars into
his mouth and stuff. It's just like that's I
mean, I guess as a kid, it's not going to feel
bad. But no, that was a sad moment. He wasn't
relishing it at all. He was like stuffing it
down. Stuffing it down his gullet. Yeah, it was
just so deeply, yeah. He was being an Augustus
Gloop in that moment, man. 100%, 100%, 100%.
It's funny what you're saying about the blood,
the bloodstream, man, because I feel like all
the chocolate in this movie looks like blood.
Yes. Like all the liquid chocolate. Oh, my God,
yeah. And then in Schindler's List, all the blood
looks like chocolate because it's black and white,
and that's another, like. I'm not even lying.
100%. Yeah, I was like, this makes it more bearable
because it looks like it makes... Well, there's
also a little child who jumps into a vat of chocolate.
Right. Oh, my God, yeah. Both of them. Yeah,
and then there's the fucking talk of the incinerator.
Like, oh, the incinerator's only on half the
days, so maybe they'll get lucky. Dude, it's
crazy. In the book, they account for all of these
kids in the end. Don't worry, they didn't die.
But they're all fucking totally mutilated and
shit. yeah yeah yeah um what's her name violet
is like purple forever um my tv is stretched
out yeah stretched out but like he's like six
like eight feet tall or something yeah like two
inches thin it's just like really kind of horrifying
yeah yeah End of midsummer or something. Or the
end of a lifelong struggle with diabetes where
you get a leg removed. Totally. Or you turn purple.
But I really like the changes the movie makes
where you're actually not sure if they make it
out alive at all. It's very foreboding. I don't
think we're going to get out of here alive. And
they sign a contract that actually signs like
you know they don't know what they sign away
but the idea that a contract is the central even
in the first line of the contract it says that
he's not responsible for death right right yeah
and that makes like everything that he does in
there legal because there's paperwork and so
he can kill as many of these people as he wants
to in order to continue his regime and stuff
it's banal it's banal AF but I think the introduction
of that the paperwork thing is like it makes
everything else feel much more sinister because
like in the book there's none of that so it's
like okay we kind of know that he's not just
killing people but this one's like no dude this
is the richest most powerful person in the world
who's taking you into like a secret place that
nobody else has ever seen and he's not letting
you out He's not letting you out. That was the
whole plan all along. He's not giving away his
secrets. The first thing he does is get you to
sign away your life, and then he's like, oh,
this is fun. Now I get to do exactly whatever
the fuck I want to these people and find maybe
one that's banal enough to just continue being
me for another generation. But it's horrifying,
dude. It's really horrifying, specifically because
of the contract. And I think that's another one
that really connects with Schindler's List, obviously,
is the paperwork. the ability of that sort of
yeah totally realization of horrors well and
just the entire and the entire final solution
thing which is to weed out all the things that
are different to continue your bloodline or whatever
oh totally but but but but specifically i mean
the choice that that that spielberg made uh from
changing it to uh from schindler's arc to schindler's
list the idea of these bureaucratic like these
these reams of paper being the thing that really
is responsible for the transubstantiation of
human life into, like, bureaucratic statistic,
you know? That, like, this is the essence of
this alchemical change where it's no longer about
relations and the vibrational field of being.
Now it's about some, like, abstraction and a
contract or, like, a list of names where at the
end of the day, like, they're just... squiggles
on a piece of paper and that's what they've been
reduced to and i think that that is definitely
um yeah that's a totally like powerful moment.
And it allows people to dispassionately take
out those orders. Right. You know what I mean?
And be like, it doesn't matter. I mean, there's
the seat. Like, it doesn't matter to me. It's
just another one on a list. Like, whatever. Right.
That was not a German accent. That was a Jewish
accent. It was supposed to be a German accent.
So Schindler's List was not a title change that
Spielberg made. Oh. That happened because of
the publication. It was a British book, and I
think when they released it in the States, they
changed it to Schindler's List because Ark had
a religious connotation to it. Oh, got it. Okay,
thank you for that. But that coincidentally works
very well with the changes that Spielberg made
in his movie compared to the book and everything.
Did you all out of curiosity read the book? I
ordered it and it came a couple of days ago.
So I was only able to read like a quarter of
it. And then I did some more reading on some
of the differences. So I can't claim expertise
on all the differences, but like in my short
read on it, I could see a lot of things, but
let's not get into all that. We won't get into
that right now. Let's try to stay on the chocolate
factory. I mean, we started to get into all the
Nazi connections and I think that was like, That's
really fun that I have tons of notes on weird
connections, but it's that you saw all this in
the movie and it's already kind of been brought
up without really pressing the issue. It's hilarious
because I think when you present people with
the idea that Willy Wonka is a sinister movie
or has anything to do with some of the darkest
topics in humanity, they would put up an eyebrow,
right? It's just kind of like, what are you talking
about? What do you mean it has Nazi connections
and shit like that? But this whole thing of talking
about its origin as a work by an anti -Semite
that was taken over by a bunch of Jews and how
they, consciously or not, injected a ton of their
shit into it that really speaks, even if they
were trying to just make a whimsical family movie,
really right out of the gate. One of the things
I noticed about the way this movie starts is
that the opening sequence is a realistic depiction
of a soulless, mechanical... chocolate manufacturing
line. You know what I mean? It's like, it's nothing
like the factory you see in the movie. No, exactly.
You know what I mean? It's reality. Like right,
right, right out of the gates. It's, it's like
showing you that this movie is a fantasy and
this chocolate factory is a fantasy. And this
is all this like wool that's being pulled over
your eyes. But the reality is this thing that's
like fascist. It's like a mechanical assembly
line that just like, that like takes a bunch
of beautiful individual. and crushes it down
and pulverizes it into this like mixes it with
sugar and dairy to be packaged in all the same
kind of like wrappers to be consumed by people.
You know what I mean? That's the reality. Yeah.
And then the very first scene of the movie is
all these children running out of school and
going straight to the candy shop. And there's
a billboard behind the candy shop that says,
now you have a choice. But the only thing that
it says on the candy shop is Wonka and Slugworth.
And then inside there's a Fickle Gruber's shelf.
Right. There's only like three choices in the
shop. I'm so glad. Sorry, Tony. Just really quick.
I'm so glad you brought that up. Fickle Gruber.
So do you know what Schickle Gruber is? No. Schickle
Gruber is Adolf Hitler's family name. What? This
is no lie. They changed their name from Schicklgruber
to Hitler. And in the first scene of the movie,
there's this Ficklgruber. And I was watching
it. I was like, what the fuck? Yep, yep. That's
crazy. I don't know. That's crazy. Yeah, dude,
yeah. And then do you know what Bill does, the
candy man, immediately? I mean, already on the
surface, his relationship with these children
is super fucking weird. Yeah. He doesn't make
them pay. Yeah, he doesn't make them pay, but
that's all part of a fantastical music number,
and you could say... Well, kind of, but then
Charlie, the one who can't pay, is the one who
has to pay. Totally. No, no, no, I know, that's
definitely there. He's just like, he's throwing,
he's showering them with candy. He's not making
them pay at all. It's like they all have tabs,
and they're all good for it or something. Yeah,
yeah, their credit's good. But you know what
he says to them, though? The first thing he says,
he pushes a functionalist theory that social
stratification is... natural and good basically
like he says Wonka was born to be a candy worker
and you guys were born to be Wonkerers and then
he sings a song about how like the candy man
can do whatever the fuck he wants because he
does it with love and thinks the world the world
is the way it is because he thinks it should
be that way and then really ominous chords end
the song it ends on like a really weird like
doo it's like really creepy it's like I don't
know, man. Yeah. Like, the whole entire beginning
just, like, starts on this foot. It's very much
there. Oh. And, you know, and then, like, his
teacher, Turkentine, is, like, also condescendingly
asserting the social hierarchy. He's like, I'm
the teacher, and you're the student. And, like...
you know, the student can't teach the teacher,
that would be presumptuous or whatever. Right,
right. It's crazy, man. Absolutely, absolutely.
And at the end of the day, and then you have,
like, Charlie Bucket, who is just, like, hopelessly,
like, wrapped up in this machinery without having
any idea of why he just is constantly getting
the short end of the stick, and, like, life is
just, like, so rough for him, but he's just,
like, such a sweet kid, and he's just so... clearly
just like, you know, a victim of this miserable
system. And then like the only way out is like
him just believing super, super hard that for
some reason he's not just going to be like all
the rest of the impoverished. trash in the city
that's just gonna get swept away in capitalism
for some reason he is gonna get that golden ticket
and it's just kind of like this yeah it's yeah
but it's just kind of this inversion of like
the hero's journey where it's like you know this
this like whether it's neo or or or harry potter
or fucking luke skywalker you get this like somewhat
like generic just like i don't really know but
like gets chosen for like this like glorious
journey um because ultimately like that is that's
the the model that might inspire all of us to
like live into our best potential right but in
this context there's something it's it's so not
like romantic it's so like it's just so like
miserable and depressing like the only way out
of just like unimaginable internet and like intergenerational
grinding poverty is to like get this random ticket
so that you can just like get in on the action
and like maybe have the chance of taking over
the factory yourself and then just like yeah
perpetuate this like like you know structural
violence on poor people um and uh like like that's
like yeah so it's it's hard to imagine for me
there wasn't like intentionality in this critique
because it's so biting yeah it definitely dude
it's like it's like Vonnegut satire dude it's
crazy yeah yeah it really is it really is and
um yeah it's so and then just to to to go to
the end again that one of the images That really
stuck out at me was when walk is like having
his breakdown And you're in his office and like
it's decorated by all these like split faces
These have everything and it's just like the
bipolarity of this man. Yeah the bipolarity of
capitalism. And just like, this is a, like, this
is a sick and crazed person who, um, is like,
is just like so inherently unstable that like,
that you just, you don't know what the fuck to
make of him. And it's the very same of this system
that like, when you actually like, you pull back
the curtain and see like, who is Oz in there.
It's just this like miserable dude, like, like,
like hunched over his desk, surrounded by this,
like, Really... fucked -up artwork that just,
like, speaks to a totally fractured and broken
spirit. Exactly, exactly. And it's just like,
whoa! This is who's behind the curtain. This
is who's behind the curtain, and it's just, yeah,
this is Oz, and it's, yeah, it's miserable. It's
miserable. And that's the most bipolar he ever
is in the movie, because you see him at his most,
like, terrifying, and then you see him at his
most, like, warm. Right, exactly, exactly. And
then everything is redeemed in the end when Charlie
expresses, like, like, total and complete and
utter fealty, then this, like, parasitic man
can finally feel safe enough to, like, open himself
up because he knows that he, like, will never
have to surrender his ego. His, like, ego can
live intergenerationally through his, like, new
son who doesn't have a father. But now his father
is the war. But the war is that of consumer capitalism
where you're just... constantly trying to sell
as many candy bars as you can. And, um, and,
and the funny thing is that like, um, the tie
-ins with actual capitalism, like Wonka bars
as a commodity that I don't know if there's,
are they still, they're still around? At least
they were five years ago or something. Right.
It's just like, makes it that much more like
multidimensional a work when it's like reaching
out of the screen and being like, yeah, the,
The critique is in your bloodstream if you eat
this fucking candy bar having spent your own
money on it. Well, this movie was actually meant
to be a tie -in with the Wonka Bar. Oh, pre -existed
the movie. It was from the book. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Okay. Wait, what? The book was supposed
to be a tie -in? I don't know if the Wonka Bar
was made before this movie or directly during
and after. Movie. But, like, the Quaker Oats
company was looking for a project in which they
could do a candy tie -in. Okay. Interesting.
And they were in talks with the producer, David
L. Wolper, over doing this. And then this movie,
like, independently came on the table. because
of the director, Mel Stewart and stuff, but then
it just kind of all tied together. And what's
funny is that the movie doesn't actually feel
like a product placement movie ever, but like
the walk, a candy bar was a candy bar that was
released by Quaker Oats. So it was a candy tie
in. Do Quaker Oats invested finance the film
with $3 million? Yeah, there you go. That's crazy.
that's crazy because that is just like yeah that
is really like attacking the parent companies
you know what i mean right i mean make a movie
about how evil quaker oats is basically a hundred
percent a hundred percent and and and and yeah
being more than a movie as you actually can then
find the freaking product on the shelf and like
poison yourself with it and you've been like
conditioned into this like cult of wonka because
you saw the movie and gene wilder is such a great
movie star, and you're like, yes, must have Wonka
Barr. Totally, totally. Just so we can start
reeling in the scope again, let's go back to
The Office. I thought this would be a good point
to bring up Joe again, Grandpa Joe. A lot's already
been said about how Wonka and Joe are both like
Charlie's father figures in the movie. And I
think it's weird that Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka
has been sort of retrospectively considered a
father figure. just because of that one last
scene of the movie where he's warm towards him.
Right. That's the way he's always talked about,
like, his performance was more of, like, a fatherly
figure kind of performance. Yeah. But that you
have these two father figures, Joe and Charlie,
and that, like, Joe... Joe and Willy Wonka. Yeah,
yeah, Joe and Willy Wonka. Joe is actually speaking
for Charlie a lot more than Charlie speaks for
himself. Joe is kind of like directing all of
Charlie's actions. He's the one who's like egging
Charlie on to keep buying more chocolate bars
and to keep trying to win the ticket or whatever.
Earlier in the movie, Charlie's mom even says
to Joe, like, you're giving him false hope and
shit, you know? And then at the end of the movie...
This is what Joe accuses Wonka of doing. He says,
how could you do something like this? Build up
a little boy's hopes and smash them into pieces.
Right. And it's like Joe and Wonka seem to have
a dichotomy, like they're more similar and they're
different, or like they're the same but at different
ends of the spectrum or whatever. Totally. Yeah,
I don't know. But Joe is also the one who encourages
Charlie to steal the fizzy lifting drink, so
he's always kind of like, a satanic presence
in charlie's life like he's he's like a bad conscience
the whole time you know what i mean no totally
i think i think that for me the fizzy lifting
drinks thing is interesting because like i was
saying earlier i think there's a certain alcoholism
um to grandpa joe i think he's lying in bed all
day because he just likes drinking and so it
is like pipe tobacco and you know Then as soon
as there's fizzy lifting drinks, he's like, that's
my shit. I like fizzy lifting. I've been drinking
fizzy lifting drinks every night. Let's go get
some fizzy lifting drinks. Oh, yeah, I love it.
Not break the rules, even though I've seen like
six other people get killed through this. Well,
and then it's not Joe who asks Wonka about it.
It's Mr. Salt, but Mr. Salt points out the alcohol
in the inventing rooms. It was like, what is
it? Is it like butterscotch and butter rum or
something like that? Yeah, yeah. And he's like,
candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker. Yep. Like
that's not a line from the book. No, no. They're
equating all of these industries that are, you
know. Based on addiction, basically. Essentially
based on addiction. Yeah. Yeah. That's really
interesting. I love that image of like the fizzy
lifting drink as like, that sounds like a beer.
Lifts my spirits and it's fizzy. Well, Grandpa
Joe also says, look how high we are, Charlie.
Yeah. That's so interesting. That's so interesting.
Yeah. And, and, and just like the image of, yeah,
just like the deadbeat dad who just like plays
around all day. Um, yeah, I mean, it's so, it's
such an interesting thing because in the book,
it's been a long time since I've read the book,
but I do remember it reasonably well, or at least
the feel of it. Um, and the book, yeah, it does
just feel like a more just like whimsical sort
of fable style, uh, archetype or cartoonish like
oh he's got a rough life and all four parents
like all four grandparents sleep in one bed right
right yeah yeah but then when you actually play
it out then it like in like becomes very weird
it becomes very weird and very yeah just like
it necessitates asking these sorts of questions
um around like yeah just yeah poverty and intergenerational
trauma and um And I feel like at the end of the
day, it's, you know, it's hard to imagine this
movie, whether, like, I don't really think Charlie
and the Chocolate Factory is a critique. I don't
really think it, I could be wrong. The book?
The book. Yeah, I agree. I think it's like a
fairy tale. I think it's a bit of a fantasy that
this guy is writing. It's like, I fucking hate
all these kids. I just want, yeah, I want like
a sweet, yeah, I want like a sweet, nice kid
who's just like docile and obedient and full
of wonder and imagination. And I'm going to give
that kid all the candy he could ever want. And
all those like bitchy kids who always get their
way, like they're going to die or be like mutilated
in some way. They'll all get theirs in the end.
This is my fantasy reality and I get to choose.
Yeah, but then when you actually build it out
and you're trying to build the world to film
it, then yeah, you just... I don't know. I feel
like you can't help but deal with these questions
of like, yeah, what is poverty? Like, what does
it actually look like to see this like adorable
blonde kid who's like so poor? Like, and then
these like rich kids who are such assholes. And
that's just like also another message of the
movie is just that like, like he's surrounded,
Charlie's surrounded by so much like. swine.
Like, like these, like these, these privileged
kids are such pieces of shit. They're just awful.
And he's like the only good one and he's poor.
And it's just like, how is that not some sort
of, you know, critique of capitalism? Absolutely.
A hundred percent. Like it has to be. The one
that I, we haven't gotten to yet was Mike TV.
Right. That I think is like a really interesting
kind of archetype specifically in this era. Yeah.
It's 70, what, one? 71. Yeah. So like, I, I really
think of Mike TV as sort of this, um, um, he's
like a techno utopian. Like, you know what I
mean? He's like the TV generation, but like,
he's the type of kid that like believes in this
wonder of technology stuff. Um, and is sort of
bewildered all day by the super stimulus and
kept in this sort of, I don't know, of its time,
sort of. fantasy world where he's not living
in the real world and in the book he's even more
like he really wants to do violence and stuff
I mean, that's another big thing. He doesn't
understand the difference between reality and
TV. Right. I mean, that's another thing with
Mike TV that's so striking is that he's, like,
constantly, like, fake shooting people. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. He's actually, like, on the one hand.
He wants a gun. Yeah, yeah. He wants a gun. He's,
like, this weird. Yeah, exactly. He wants a gun.
He's this weird combination of this techno utopian.
He's, like, so ready to be, like, turned into,
like, the bits being moved through the sky. The
consequences would be damned. But also, this
kind of. You know what I mean? It's just like.
I'm the first to do this. I'm the first to do
that. I put my name on a plaque and it's like,
yeah, you're just fucking tiny. But also this,
yeah, but this also this strange conditioned
archetype, this sort of forced. cultural memory
of, like, the badass cowboy who's got a gun who,
like, is basically, like, why do they have guns?
They have guns mostly to shoot indigenous people.
Like, that's what was going on. And so he's,
like, this kind of historical throwback, this
memory through TV has turned him into this, like,
you know, this violent cowboy figure. And it's
just, like, it's just a very beautiful, it's
just, like, a very potent image of how just deeply
confused kids are with, like, TV culture, American
culture, like, just a culture of violence and
techno -utopia. And it's that kind of desensitization
of violence that, I mean, if you think about
this is another thing that feels like Nazi adjacent
or whatever. 100%. The idea that if you can desensitize
the youth to violence, they could be led to doing...
They can be psyched about doing it. As they get
older. Yeah, I mean, they can be psyched about
it. You might be raising an Amon Go. That's exactly
what I was thinking. I was just thinking Amon
Go up there on the balcony just shooting Jews
because it's target practice. Just like, you
know, the person that Mike TV is channeling,
some cowboy shooting indigenous out west because
it's target practice. Exactly. And the TV reporter
says to him, you like the killings, huh? And
he says, what do you think life is about? What
do you think life is about? Yeah. Yeah. Wild.
That's a little school shooter. Yeah. He's also
like, he also plays as like almost autistic or
whatever. You know what I mean? Like he doesn't
really have any real. connection to reality yeah
at all in any scene he's completely i mean he's
fragmented he's totally fragmented and then he
turns into tv particles in the in the end he's
just like he's he's just a yeah and then he just
it truly is just dissolved by the machine and
is when he's reconstituted he's made like so
much smaller so like just like hideously small
and he's not actually upset about it no he's
not because he doesn't he doesn't have so disconnected
from reality yeah he's like an astronaut you
know he got there he did it he's first there's
gonna be a plaque somewhere yeah it doesn't matter
that he's dying in a tin can somewhere right
he's he's the man of the future he's great right
right 100 like just totally willing to sacrifice
himself for these, like... The most banal thing
in the world. The most banal thing in the world.
I'm the first one to be transported. Like, yeah.
Jesus Christ. The most banal thing in the world.
Can we just acknowledge, though, that Willy Wonka
invented teleportation? Yeah, it's pretty...
That's intense. Yeah. In his chocolate factory.
Totally. In the book, he invented, like, the
cure to world hunger and all sorts of other stuff.
Well, I just... Yeah, the Everlasting Gobstopper
is a really, like, weird thing that sort of contradicts...
everything else that's satanic about him because
he wants to create a candy that, like, never
goes bad. So you never have to buy another one.
Yeah, it's like, how would that be good for profit
or the bottom line? Yeah, it's anti -capitalist.
It is anti -capitalist. It's like, it's for the
children without any pocket money. Right, right.
One image that just came to mind, this idea of
Willy Wonka, like, creating tele... teleportation
in the service of like just moving like basically
like poison candy like like around the the country
um seamlessly what it brought to mind was uh
some time i spent in the sticks in uh south africa
where uh in this village called bulangula which
is like so many miles down a dirt road in a really
like like uh like just a really raw a really
rural community they still have where the this
like incredibly remote removed community there
is coca -cola there there are signs for coca
-cola that this like that this actually like
one of the most remarkable achievements of human
um of like human organizing has been like Coca
-Cola's drive to move high fructose corn syrup
around the world to reach every single tendril.
And it is this kind of like miraculous thing.
It's too bad that they're selling poison water.
It would be amazing if they were like, you know,
distributing like good clean water or something
like that. But that's not what they're doing.
It's like it's all built for the sake of like
moving poison around the world and like this
addictive poison. And it's the same thing with
fucking Willy Wonka, like inventing teleportation,
this total revelation. for the sake of just candy.
Yeah, and keeping it to himself, too. I'm not
going to give this to the world. I'm going to
transport candy to everybody's TV sets and keep
this in my secret factory where nobody ever comes
out. Right, right, right. But also, maybe the
everlasting gobstopper is just a fantasy, and
that's the point, and so is the teleporter, that
nothing in this factory is actually going to
get shipped out for mass consumption. none of
that shit in the end his own sick oligarchic
playground where he's just like like basically
yeah exactly just most dangerous game shit he's
just like basically soft he's jigsaw he's fucking
exactly what it is it's jigsaw he's killing all
these different people in a way that is specific
to why they i mean it's like seven yeah exactly
it's like seven killer and seven where he's like
got the gluten the rape guy and stuff like you
know what i mean all these different people are
being punished for their sins and he is the god
of this in which he can punish all of the people
that he hates. Yeah. And that's very Hitler.
Totally is. Very fucking Hitler. But going back
a second, like you were saying, I like this,
that the everlasting gobstopper is like an anti
-capitalist sort of idea because it is what's
used as the temptation. The bargaining chip.
The bargaining chip. So it's almost like Willy
Wonka's being like... do you want socialism here?
Yeah. It was like, no, this guy gives back socialism
because he's so enamored of me. Then like, yeah,
good. Right. You know what I mean? It's like,
you're giving up socialism for capitalism in
this trend. Yeah. Or you're giving up socialism
for like cult of personality, which, which is
like, let's, let's be real. That's exactly what
happened in Germany in the 1930s. Like it was
the most, it was like, like the, the, the left
in Germany was ascendant. And the reason why
Hitler, ultimately prevailed was because all
the forces of reaction were like, well, if we
don't throw in with Hitler, like the, the, the
left is either the socialists are going to win.
Um, and, um, and so that was kind of like, that
was kind of the choice. You would get like the
everlasting gobstopper, like a world of like
plenty or, uh, or you like worship this, like,
you know, this charismatic, uh, this charismatic,
mystical. Visionary. Charismatic, but not nice
or fatherly or anything. No, but not nice. Just
like a crazy, insane charismatic little wonka
or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, crazy. Yeah. It just goes to show, I mean,
the strange resonance between these films to
me really genuinely just speaks to the banality
of evil. That there's something just like, that
there's something totally banal about the evil
that is at the... core to all of these structures
these common structures whether it's the state
these top -down bureaucracies of violence and
control whether it's the state or it's a corporation
it's just like the fact is and i do think that
this was hannah arendt of course hannah arendt's
takeaway um from eichmann in jerusalem as well
um is that is that like dude like eichmann was
not some fucking evil guy he would these are
evil structures that cultivate pathological and
evil behavior but like they're actually it's
the evilness that emerges out of these structures
and it's just the fucking and like that's what's
so fascinating about seeing these two movies
side by side where really like the common theme
is kind of just industrialism basically just
like like the industrial era under some sort
of like microscope under some sort of like uh
like you know some sort of analysis and at the
end of the day there's the same sick fantasy
murder control fantasy that is at the heart of
fucking the industrial structure, the industrial
system or, yeah, or, or just, or yeah, that,
that autocratic power structure that has characterized
the corporate industrial age. Totally. The idea
that those are so compatible that like Nazism
is so compatible with capitalism or. with this
idea of industrial, like, Randian libertarian
capitalism sort of thing, that, like, the critique
of one is kind of the critique of the other,
that, like, Willy Wonka absolutely can be seen
as a Hitler character, but he's just as much,
like, an industrialist. Like, you know what I
mean? And the criticisms of the dehumanization
that comes from that, like, is common to, like,
both. Like, you know what I mean? They have that
in common. Yeah. Absolutely. Like pairing these
together makes that like more clear. I mean,
we'll get into it more, I guess, in Schindler's
List. But I think that's a lot of what Spielberg
is doing is where he's discussing. And this is
what Hannah Arendt gets into, too. Yeah. Where
he's just talking about Nazis, but she's also
talking about, you know, the people who worked
at IBM or like. Right. Or like, you know, the
people like, you know, who were involved in the
State Department during the Second Iraq War,
which killed a million civilians. Or like. People
who are involved in some other conflict that
might be happening on planet Earth right now
that is killing unfathomable numbers of people
in this kind of banal business as usual way.
But also the complicity, like how Charlie is
completely complicit in the system and kind of
just goes along with it. And that's kind of what
the Jewish leadership did during the Holocaust
as well. They thought kind of going along with
it and helping to facilitate it would like end
up saving them. Saving those ones. Saving those
ones. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. But like I think
that like really is the core of it that you said.
And I have like. like a bunch more connections
i could list out that would be really fun um
when it comes to more of charlie or willie wonka
and the chocolate factory's nazi connections
we didn't even talk about the oompa loompas much
i mean that's like a pretty no yeah exactly we
didn't talk about the oompa loompas which are
which are both like which are the oompa loompas
are both a um like i think they really do work
as like a metaphor for a concentration camp a
forced labor camp and all that kind of stuff.
And even, what did you call them? I can't recall.
The Jhumpa Loompas you're talking about? Yeah,
the Jhumpa Loompas. Oh my God. The dark skinned,
curly haired dudes. Yeah, they've got curly hair,
and they're like darker skinned, and they've
got big noses. Weird. But Willy Wonka talks about
how he found them in Loompa Land, but like basically
the way he's describing it, he could be describing
like Africa, or South America or any kind of
jungle environment that quote -unquote savages
live in. Yeah, he's kind of just talking about
the slave trade. He's just kind of talking about
the transatlantic slave trade. Yeah, the stuff
everywhere that would kill them and whatever.
And I'm actually doing them a service by... Bringing
them here. And he says, like, I brought them
here in the greatest secrecy. So it's like, I
kept it real secret. I brought these people here.
It's like, they have a better life here. Now
they're my workers. So, you know, they're not
as free, but they're more safe. And, like, they
can work in my chocolate factory, and they can
like it, too. They're happy in their slavery.
Yeah, they can be grateful. Work will set them
free. Yeah, exactly. But it's funny because the
original version of Charlie and the Chocolate
Factory, the book, they were black and they revised
that for like the 1973 edition that came out
after the movie. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Wow. That is
problematic. Yep. Well, I mean, I feel like...
I don't know, man. Think about those Oompa Loompas
songs just being sung by just a bunch of black
people instead. That would be very funny. No,
it would be funny, but it would be weird. That's
the height of minstrelsy. Yeah, weird. Super
weird. I mean, I kind of feel like... They are
all weird orange -faced dudes. Yeah, it's bizarre.
Yeah, I feel like maybe, you know, if we wanted
to, we can use the Oompa Loompas like as the
kind of direct transitional. point between, because
that's between Wonka and Schindler's List. Okay.
Just because, I mean, just as a thought. Before
we do, I would be really remiss to not mention
some more of these details in the movie, just
so it really continues to solidify the legitimacy
of this interpretation of the movie. Yeah. But
one of the big ones is, you know how there's
the guy Who wins the fifth ticket, but he's a
fraud. Yeah. His name is Alberto Minileta. In
the book, he's from Russia. And in the movie,
he's from Argentina. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's South
American. Yeah, he's the only non -white. He's
from South America. He's the only non -white
person in the movie. The picture they show on
the TV is a picture of Martin Borman. What? Yeah,
who is Hitler's personal secretary. What? Mm
-hmm. So it's kind of like it's kind of an inside
joke because like Eichmann and a lot of other
Nazis were like hiding in South America. Oh,
my God. Or whatever. And at the time when they
made this movie, Martin Borman hadn't been found
yet. And they thought like maybe he was in South
America. So this is kind of just like an inside
joke that they threw in there. A hundred percent.
A hundred percent. But a year later, they found
Martin Borman's body in Germany. He had died
back in like 45 and they finally exhumed him.
Was it stuffed full of chocolate or something?
I don't know. But another really hilarious connection
is there was a Nazi named Wilhelm Kopp. He was
one of the most prominent among the higher SS
leaders. He became the director of a chocolate
factory in post -war Germany. His name was Wilhelm.
That's crazy. I like that. That's crazy. That's
crazy. And then the Fickle Gruber thing. The
Fickle Gruber thing is so weird. That's insane.
Yeah, the Fickle Gruber thing is really good.
Another really good one is, you know the scene...
I mean, we never really even got into the whole
like montage of just like all the like global
insanity that was happening over the Wonka Bar
competition. Just like how satirically hilarious
all that was. Like there's the psychiatrist who
like the Freudian psychiatrist doesn't care about
the dream until it's about the Wonka Bars. And
then there's like the and then there's this there's
like a woman whose husband is kidnapped and she'll
give them anything until she finds out it's Wonka
Bars. And then there's this scene where they
ask a computer. to calculate where the Wonka
bars are. And it's like a very 2001 moment for
one. But the other thing that I noticed is the
computer is made by a German company called...
Siemens. Siemens, yeah. Siemens, yeah. So they're
a multinational tech conglomerate, and they're
the largest industrial manufacturing company
in Europe. Yeah. But they began in 1847. So I
wonder what they were doing in 1939. So in World
War II, they were known for exploiting the forced
labor of deported people in extermination camps.
Wow. They owned a plant in Auschwitz. They supplied
electrical parts to the camps, and the factories
at the camps were created, run, and supplied
by the SS in collaboration with high -level officials.
That's crazy. And that's the kind of thing where
it's like, that could be a critique, but it's
probably just the reality that... capitalism
is Nazism and it just never ended. Well, there's
the other, there's the other thing that there's
like, there's also like a Lufthansa poster, which
is like a German airline that was like the flag
carrier during Nazi Germany. But like, the other
thing we have to remember is that this entire
movie was shot in Munich, Germany. Like in the,
in the book, it's completely out of time and
place. Like you don't know where Charlie's from.
You don't know where any of the kids are from,
but in the movie, Charlie's town is still out
of place. But we have Ruka Saltz from England,
Mike TV and Violet Beauregard are from America,
and Augustus Gloob is from Germany. And so since
we know that the movie is shot in Munich, Germany,
we can kind of assume that Charlie is also in
Germany. And I mean, you know that Munich just
is such an important Hitler city. Yeah. It's
like the OG Hitler city. For sure, man. So it
all could be coincidence because it's like, well,
we decided to shoot in Munich, Germany, and all
these Jews decided to go shoot their movie in
Munich, Germany because they thought it would
be whimsical and have a kind of old, out -of
-time vibe to it. And then because of that, they
get all this sort of, like, production support
from German corporations and shit like that because
they're there. Or that's, like, why you see,
like, Lufthansa posters because even though they
were active in World War II, they're still around,
you know? Yeah. And, like, it could all be a
coincidence and whatever, but, like, it's all
stuff that rhymes way too much. I know. And,
like, I'm sorry, but you cannot be a Jew in 1971.
in Munich and not think about Hitler there 30
years before. Like I'm 34. Like that's, that's,
that's like the very recent past there. And,
and, and like the ongoing like implications of
the Holocaust for Jewish life. I mean, obviously
to this day, but like, especially in 1971. Yeah.
There's just. There's just kind of no way. And
even if it's not a super conscious critique,
which I think that it is, it's like at least
a sort of like intuitive channeling, like just
building off of the vibrations that were there
filming this thing, this this thing in Munich,
a story by this like anti -Semitic Brit who were
kind of like, you know, part of the chosen race,
like Hitler's chosen race. I mean, you know how
like Hitler didn't go like didn't want to kill
the English because saw them as this. same race
um yeah there's just there's just yeah i mean
fuck there's a lot going on there there's a lot
going on and yeah at this point unless you guys
have anything more specific i would agree that
maybe we should segue over to uh schindler's
list and we can keep making comparisons and all
that kind of stuff but yeah to start focusing
more on that one now yeah sounds good let's uh
let's take a quick break and then uh get into
the other factory So we're back. Back from the
break. Back from the break, yeah. And we were
just actually, like, in the break before we even
started recording again. We were just... jump
back into it ranting about waka ranting about
waka and and like yeah this randian vision of
like the like the the great man theory of history
basically the aspiration being this like sigma
male who like ascends through your like cunning
and willpower um to like command the world but
like in all of those cases the outcome is always
like incredibly pathological like wonka or like
adolf hitler right um and and um you're saying
like like bill gates and you know elon musk and
whatever all these guys that acquire this amount
of power to end up just like with no like yeah
just these weird freaks and these weird yeah
no no wholesome like gregarious connection to
the circle of life you know right and and that
and that like you know in a healed society i
would imagine our myths are more pointing us
toward that sort of sense of ecological and community
interbeing where we just like are just forever
joined in dance and song as the seasons pass
as opposed to some end point of history where
you finally accumulated all the power and then
you realize like oh my god i never realized how
desperately lonely a human being could be and
you just completely like toxify and collapse
or or in some cases i guess Maybe you have this
sort of like crazy awakening like like Oscar
Schindler and then and then become your own.
But then it becomes its own sort of like like
pathological need to be to sacrifice yourself
in service. Like, I don't know, the interesting,
I feel like Oskar Schindler is actually, like,
a super interesting counterpoint to this story,
to this accumulationist story, where it's like
he actually gets to this point and then, like,
something does pop. And he suddenly, like, he
spends himself into poverty by the end of the
war, saving Jews. Well, I think he does. As soon
as he knows that his money is not going to be
worth anything in a couple of years. Yeah. And
what he really starts doing is finding other
commodities and taking care of the rest of his
life where he never had to have a successful
business again or whatever and was allowed to,
you know, he's the only Nazi buried in Israel
and whatever. Actually, it's not true, right?
There's one other one. Where did they bury Eichmann?
Yeah, he just threw him into the Mediterranean.
Yeah, I forget. Okay, so we're jumping in head
first right now. Oh, man, we so are. Sorry, yeah.
Take it. Give us some framing. There might not
be a better place to start than, yeah, just how
we feel about Schindler and, like, his transformation
in this movie and how honest it is and, I don't
know, and how ironic the movie is or not. Because
this movie... I think like one of the biggest
complaints Schindler's List gets from haters
is that it's too sentimental. Yeah, so this was
my main criticism. Like years ago when I saw
this movie and I was in my sort of anti -Spielberg
phase, I referred to it as Mr. Toad's wild ride
of the Holocaust. Where it's just kind of like
going from one thing to the next thing and all
these sort of... I don't know. It's going through
each of the things to show you the whole Holocaust,
but it kind of plays like a rollercoaster ride
or something. I mean, to me, the big scene that
really stood out was when the women are accidentally
sent to Auschwitz. Right. And it's a shower and
not a gas chamber. Exactly. You have the whole
buildup of this tension, tension, tension. Oh,
my God, they're being put in the showers. Are
they going to die? And then it turns out. no
they're not gonna die they're totally fine everything's
okay and it feels to me like a scene out of a
horror movie where it's like the building building
tension whatever somebody opens a closet and
a skeleton falls out and it's like just a plastic
skeleton and they're like oh it's fine like you
know what i mean yeah that was my sort of criticism
this movie where it's like that doesn't feel
classy and like why the fuck would you make a
holocaust movie that has that type of That moment
of false suspense, basically. Right, right. It
felt to me to be cheap or something. But I think
that this is a movie that totally takes all of
those filmmaking sort of things. He does. He
utilizes horror movie aesthetics and cheap B
-movie things. He does. There are jokes in this
movie. There's all sorts of, you know. But it's
all contributing to something. I think it is
very funny a lot of the time. Maybe not a lot
of the time, but some of the time. Some of the
time it's pretty funny. But I think that all
of these things that I thought of as criticisms,
I think these all work to point towards a much
more complicated movie that I think does a really
good job of actually talking about the Holocaust
and what the Holocaust actually is or whatever,
which I think we were talking about Eichmann
in Jerusalem before. I think that there's a tendency
nowadays to think of the Holocaust as just like
this. Basically, it was all about racism and
that's basically it, you know, and it's like.
Well, it's not like when Hannah Arendt went and
saw Eichmann, she was like, well, this isn't
like a drooling, hateful, anti -Semitic guy.
This isn't a nation of people who are just drooling
with their passion to commit violence or whatever.
A lot of this is like this dispassionate, separated
thing of like, well, it's not my responsibility.
I didn't do this or that or whatever. This sort
of distance, as opposed to like a horror movie
sort of psychopath. you know, love of violence
and hatred of Jews sort of thing. I think that
is true, obviously, of like Hitler and stuff.
Like some of these guys really, you know, got
into it. Yeah. They let it get weird. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, well, what's, yeah, it's, it is
straight. It's interesting because, you know,
the Holocaust is such a particularly like. pathological
expression of the war machine's like inherent
drive anyway that the state system in my personal
understanding and read on history is that the
state System is a genocide machine. That's kind
of like what it does from its inception is saying,
OK, we are going to establish some sort of hegemony,
some some legitimate monopoly of violence within
these borders. And the state's drive is to acquire
as much territory as possible. But ecology's
drive is to diversify as much as possible. So
when you take a big swath of land like there's
going to be linguistic diversity and ethnic diversity
and spiritual diversity. And so if you're trying
to all bring it under some unifying principle
like. Russia or Turkey or the Reich, it's inherently
a genocidal process. What's just so over the
top about the case of the Third Reich was that
it was such an intensive use of resources to
the detriment of the state, but... actually like
the expressed darkest possible dream of the state
made so explicit as to be unignorable. But the
fact is like they were fighting a two front war.
What were they doing? Expelling all this like
logistical energy on, on exterminating this,
you know, a population that would otherwise like.
I mean, would they? I mean, the World War Two
is unimaginable without the racism, without the
like extermination policy toward the Jews and
the Romani. And like, it's just they're so integral.
But I it's just a kind of a weird it's just a
weird phenomenon that does kind of make the Holocaust
stand out as a genocide in particular, as opposed
to, for example, the genocide happening in the
Levant right now, which is like very clearly
a land grab. It's just like got to get rid of
the people to take the land. Whereas whereas
in Nazi Germany, it was like it was actually
like an ideological, pathological obsession of
the high command. It was this kind of religious.
It was a token of their religious fanaticism
to the extent that it undermined the project.
Right. You know, it didn't make sense. It didn't
make sense. A lot of historians really do feel
the Nazis would have taken over the globe or
something if they hadn't been so... Racist! If
their resources hadn't been spread so thin because
of their racism. Yeah, and not just against the
Jews, but that's very significant. A lot of the
best German scientists were Jews and fled and
then worked their fucking asses off to defeat
the Nazi machine, obviously. So that was counterproductive.
We didn't talk about it enough in our episode
of Oppenheimer, but that's basically what the
whole fucking movie's about. 100%. 100%. What
happened to the German Jew? The reason that Hitler
lost is because he didn't get the right Jews.
Yeah. Building this, you know, world -ending
machine. Right, right. We got him first. That's
exactly right. But also, like, his insane anti
-Slavic racism. Like, dude, the Slavs hated Stalin.
At first, they were ready to be like, okay, let's
be part of the storm that topples the Soviet
Empire. But as soon as the Nazis crossed the
border into the Eastern Front, it was like, whoa,
way more important than we defeat Hitler. And
so the irony, the great historical irony, I think,
of Hitler and the Third Reich is... its success
was predicated on true messianic fanaticism.
So it actually needed to have that purity of
conviction and vision in order for Hitler to
pull off the most insane thing that's ever fucking
happened in the history of one man's life. And
at the same time, that was the seeds of its undoing
because ultimately it's just, that's actually
not a sustainable model, even if it can get you
like a big fucking blitzkrieg sugar rush right
in the beginning there. Oh, totally, man. Yeah,
and one of the craziest parts about the whole
entire machinery is one of the things that Hannah
Arendt brings up in The Banality of Evil as well,
which is that the Nazis absolutely required the
cooperation of all of these governments and states
and the Jews themselves to make this all possible.
Yeah, this is the thing. This is the thing that
I think is, on a rewatch of Schindler's List,
I think that is so... there in this movie the
whole movie is about people making the wrong
decision to like help somebody and by doing so
like sending them to their deaths like you know
what i mean there's like well i mean the movie
the movie opens with like a party that schindler's
at and one of the um the germans is like I'll
tell you what I mean by cooperative. Two days
after the law was passed that all Jews have to
wear the star, the Jewish tailors are turning
them out by the gross in a variety of fabrics
at three's low to each. Wow. And then another
one's like, that's what they do. They weather
the storm. And there's just like... It's insane
how many scenes in this movie are dedicated to
showing, like, the Judenrat that's, like, carrying
out all the orders of the Reich. Yeah, right.
Or, like... The capo at the ghetto. Yeah, that
is a presence throughout the entire movie. Yeah.
The sort of, the collaborating Jew. The fact
that the Judenrat has, like, their own police
force. Yeah. You know, they make sure to have
a scene where, like, Poldek, the guy that's working
on the black market with Schindler... One of
his friends, Goldberg, comes up and he's like,
I joined, you know, the Jewish police force or
whatever. And it's like. And his wife says you
look like a clown in that fucking hat. Yeah,
yeah. She says you look like a clown. And he's
like, they're not as bad as everyone says. Well,
they're worse, but it's a lot of money. Yeah.
Yeah. You know, Schindler's getting all this
like free Jewish labor. Oh, and also like Jewish
investment to build the fucking factory in the
first place to power. That was in the early scene
of the movie. Schindler's entire operation is
funded and built by Jews. This is the thing that
I think is super interesting about that scene.
It's Extern tells Schindler in the first place,
I don't know anybody who would be interested
in this. And then he says his name. He's like,
it's Extern, you. You need to tell them to be
interested. And I think that there's many times
in this movie where the individual's name being
pulled out and like stated is enough to make
them just completely change their mind like you
know what i mean this happens to a bunch of the
nazi officers but it happens first it's external
he's like i have nobody who'd be interested in
this he's like well you got to tell them to be
interested in it It's extern. And it's extern
is also just like the most banal character who
does everything. And he's completely compliant.
The next scene, he's literally just helping Schindler
rip off his Jewish friends. Like he has no idea
that maybe he'll ever pay him back. And he says
like, I'll give you, but like his word is worth
nothing. He's not giving them a contract. And
he's just like. Stern does not think that he's
doing the right thing. He's just like, this is
fucked. No, I don't want to drink with you. You're
a bad guy. But I'm just doing my job. And he's
very much like a fucking Eichmann character through
this entire movie. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And
the thing that I thought was really interesting
revisiting Eichmann in Jerusalem was Eichmann's
continued insistence that he was trying to create
a new Jewish homeland. And that he wanted to
do it in Madagascar. Madagascar. Madagascar.
Basically, that would be Israel, but run by Nazis
or whatever. Yeah, exactly. And that's because
he only understood Judaism as... Zionism, because
he'd only read like three books on the subject.
But it's a Zionist understanding of Judaism that
is like, there should be this Jewish homeland
and we should get these people to this homeland
and like, you know, out of here and whatever.
It's not about like an integration of Judaism
into these other societies. It's about a return
of Jews to the Jewish homeland. And that's something
that these Israeli leaders and, you know, and
Eichmann agreed on, I think. And both... The,
you know, with the Havara agreement in Israel,
like allowing the Nazis to continue to think
that they got, you know, 50 ,000 Jews sent to
Israel or something, a certain amount of Jews
that they chose as the ones that should survive
or whatever. They decided, OK, if you send us
these, then we will continue to fund this. You
know, we'll continue to trade with the Nazi regime
and whatever. And all of these people, Schindler
or its extern, I guess. You know, Eichmann. These
are all people who have the same narrative of,
like, I was trying to save these people. Like,
I, you know, I did this. There's a good anecdote
in the book where Eichmann's talking about, like,
oh, there was one time I went to a concentration
camp. I don't know, it was Auschwitz, maybe.
I don't know. I don't think it was because he
wasn't there much. I don't know. But he went
to some concentration camp and he recognized
some guy that he knew from before the war or
whatever, some Jew. And he was, like, an old,
crotchety guy or whatever. And he was like, oh,
well, like, let's make sure that he doesn't have
a job or whatever. Like, let's, like, let him
just stay here, but he doesn't have to do, like,
slave labor or whatever. And he tells this to,
you know, some Nazi officer. And he's like, no,
everybody has to do labor here. That's the deal.
He's like, okay, well, how about this? I, like,
am a superior officer. I'm going to make a new
job. That is, he has to sweep this path clean.
And we're going to put a bench here. And he can
sit on this bench. And he can make sure that
the path is clear. That's his job. And they're
like, okay. And they made that job for him. And
I can tell us the story as like, see, so like
I was a good guy and I helped this guy or whatever.
Like what actually happened was like two weeks
later, that guy was shot. You know what I mean?
He's still in a fucking concentration camp that
you're helping to just to construct or whatever.
You have these like personal interactions of
like saving this person or that person that allows
you to feel like you did well. But even this
person or that person probably didn't fucking
survive. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think
in the Schindler case or it's Zach Stern's case,
like. Schindler is cooperating with a lot of
the fucking worst people in the world on this
front. Like, the worst front around. You know
what I mean? And he's helping them to succeed
and whatever. But he feels good about the fact
that he saved some of them. You know what I mean?
And it's like, well, was the good that he did,
did that outweigh the bad that he did? I don't
know. You know what I mean? Like, I think that
in the end we see, like, there are these generations
of people who walk up and put the things on the
grave, whatever. But how many other people were
just sent to their deaths because Schindler paid
somebody off to save this one that he cared about?
You know what I mean? Which is similar to Israel.
How many people did you send to your deaths because
you wanted to populate your country with these
people? And you had to choose on a list which
ones died and which ones survived and whatever.
And we see in this movie Stern himself making
that list of who is and isn't allowed to survive
and choosing. and doing a lot of the work of
the genocide. In this case, it's to save somebody.
Rudolf Haas in the scene, he goes to Auschwitz
to get the women back, and Rudolf Haas says you
shouldn't be concerned with names or whatever.
Yeah, I mean, I'll just say, yeah, it sort of
just, again, to me, emphasizes the inherent genocidal
structure. the state and empire and that that
is its ultimate drive is toward genocide and
if you are not questioning the very terms if
you're like playing along on any level there's
no way to extricate yourself from some degree
of culpability in terms of the violence that
the machine creates like I personally my read
is that You know, Oskar Schindler was a unique
phenomenon because instead of literally just
like getting the most that he could and dipping
the fuck out and saying like, you know what,
I've got enough money to figure it out later,
which a lot of Nazi industrialists did and they
were fine. They had their money like post -war
and like became foundations of anti -communism
in Europe. with the understanding that that's
what that was. Yeah, but they probably weren't
running a scam during the war. Schindler was
running a scam. Dude, they were all running scams.
But I mean, they probably delivered something.
Well, for one, when he made his money, he was
delivering the enamel cookware. The scam was
later on, which is... With the armaments that
don't work. Yeah, the armaments that don't work,
which is arguably heroic sabotage. Arguably.
And I would say that, honestly, you could totally
make the argument that it was self -preservationist
and that it was kind of Machiavellian. I do think
that one thing that's clear about Oskar Schindler
from the very beginning is he's just he is monumentally
intelligent. And it's like from that very first
scene, which I love when you first meet Oskar
Schindler, just the way he's. watching the room
and he's understanding how people are interacting
and where to stand and who to, he's like, he's
nothing but like, just kind of like, like sensitive
charisma personified. He's like, who even is
this guy other than someone who is just good
at like, you know, a classic kind of businessman,
a classic shrewd and brilliant businessman who
just like knows whose hand to shake and, and
you know, who to like buddy up to. And, and that
over the course of the film, I do think that,
you know, For one, the distance between him and
all the characters around him, I think, is pretty
significant in terms of, like, his complexity
and subtlety and sophistication. I think the
Itch Doc Stern, like, there's a lot to say about
that relationship that I think is interesting.
But for the most part, I think that stands in
terms of his depth and intelligence versus basically
every other character in the movie. But I also...
I also believe that, you know, there were a lot
of military, like, Nazi industrialists who got
theirs, made an insane amount of money, and then
just, like, fucking, like, the war ended, and
they were able to maintain, yeah, they disappeared,
or they were able to maintain, the state of Germany,
were able to maintain their position, and that,
like, if, hypothetically, every Nazi industrialist
had a Oscar Schindler revelation, like, In fact,
millions of Jews, millions of Jews wouldn't have
been killed who were killed. Like I want, I do
want to give the man some credit. It was a, it's,
I think that one of the great and subtle master
strokes of the film is that question of like
power, true power is the power to save someone's
life. And, and that really just unforgettable
scene where like Amon Goeth is like, like looking
in the mirror and he's like. I pardon you. I
pardon you. And he's like, and he's like experimenting
with this like Oscar Schindler model of what
power looks like because he's this like primitive
fuck up. Whereas like Oscar Schindler is this
like beautifully integrated, subtle, subtly minded
man. But I mean, he's also a smart manipulator.
He's, he's, he's not. 100%. That's part of, that's
part of his mastery is that he's manipulating
everyone around him. Exactly. But his, his motives
changed throughout the movie too. And like, This
brings up an important distinction between the
book and the movie. One of the few things I know
is that in the book, Schindler's List, for one,
it's much more of a, it's a historical fiction,
but it like derives everything from historical
record and then like anecdotes from Schindler
himself and the survivors. So it reads a lot
more like a historical text than like a novel,
you know, even though it does have dialogue scenes.
It like sort of tries to have its cake and eat
it too in that way. It's like a, it's a narrative
and like a lot of the scenes in it, like, you
know, some of the scenes in it are in the movie.
And some of the dialogue in the movie is lifted
directly from the book. But like a lot of the
book is describing things in a detail that the
movie just can't even begin to, you know, because
it's like. telling the anecdotes of lots of different
survivors and all these different things. And
it tells the whole entire story of Schindler's
like childhood and like all the sort of minutia
of all the various deals. And like, you know,
exact, uh, Stern is a composite character in
the movie in a lot of ways. So there's just like
a lot more information and stuff going on. It's
trying to be more like a, a record of what's
going on. Right. One of the big things is how,
like right off the bat, It's very, very clear
about the morality of Schindler. It describes
Schindler as a character who hates these Nazis,
is trying to save Jews, isn't about building
some kind of successful enterprise at all. And
the book begins with the scene where he's talking
to Helen Hirsch in the basement. She's talking
about how Amon beats her and whatever. And in
the book, he, like, cries in front of her and
stuff. He's, like, much more sympathetic and
whatever than in the movie where he's still a
little bit more distanced. Yeah, he says he won't
kill you because you're precious to him. Yeah,
and so I think the movie's choice to not fill
you in on Schindler's life and make him very
distanced is notable, you know, because it makes
it harder to know him. Much like Wonka, I think.
much like wonka or oppenheimer or whatever there's
a bit of a remove that makes it hard for you
to totally know what's going on in their heads
what their motives are but schindler seems pretty
like motivated by just making money in the beginning
i think like all of his machinations are about
getting these connections and using this labor
force and just like basically taking advantage
of war and he even admits that to his wife when
she comes and visits like i just want to be known
for doing something extraordinary which is like
taking this nothing and turning it into like
the most profitable like pot factory or whatever
you know this is the thing i think i think his
motivations are essentially capitalist or at
least industrialist motivations and that's that's
why like i think that like when we're talking
about schindler i think we're really talking
about like america and, like, Western sort of
intervention and stuff, and, like, you know,
the Western cooperation, how easily Western nations
got along with, you know, the Nazi regime and
stuff. Oh, 100%. How compatible these two ideologies
are. Like, Goloth and Schindler are kind of like...
You know what I mean? That's one in the other.
Oh, 100%. Like the state and industry. Exactly.
And I definitely think that a very notable, unforgettable
line in the movie was, you know, I tried a bunch
of things, but there was one thing, but none
of these businesses were successful. There was
one thing that was missing. And for me, I thought
that was like, I thought that the space... following
that lent itself to the suggestion that it was
like, it's ox stern as in like, I just needed
my court Jew. I just needed my like, like Jew
to do everything. But that's of course not the
line. He says, it's the war. Like the one, the
one thing that I was missing was the war. And
to me, that's like, you know, that is, uh, uh,
just such crucial insight into what like industry
and capitalism is. It needs the war. And, and
it's like, um, the Thomas Pynchon quote from
gravity's rainbow, you know, the real war is
buying and selling the, the mass death of like,
you know, the, the battlefield that can be trusted
to non -professionals, but the real war is buying
and selling. And I do think that that is kind
of the inescapable conclusion of, of, of this
story, like this story of wealth making and success,
how It is interesting. I find it to be genuinely
interesting, just the story of Schindler accumulating
his wealth alone, absent the context of the Holocaust
and all the implications there. It's a beautifully
told story, very sort of succinctly, concisely
told about how a charismatic and sensitive and
intuitive... big personality can become extremely
wealthy just by like wiring up the right sort
of corrupt connections and like getting someone
in a like in a corner who needs help it's another
randian story almost yeah it's another randian
story yeah it totally is um and it's like pretty
satisfactorily told and the for me the inescapable
conclusion is like oh yeah like he's just taking
Advantage of basically like the chaos of wartime.
But isn't that just so much of how capitalism
actually works is around these these moments
of crises, manufactured crises. Yeah. Like on
that on that subject, like I want to go back
to the first deal he makes in the back of the
car with the two older Jews outside of the ghetto,
where the end of that scene is where they say.
You know, this is not a good deal for us or whatever.
Like, we did this money or whatever. He's like,
no, you don't. Like, that's why I'm here. You
called this meeting. Like, you want to talk to
me? I'm like, yeah, well, but money is still
money. And he says, no, it's not. That's what
I'm telling you. Like he's ahead of this. Yeah.
And he's like, no, it's not your money. That
currency is going to be useless. Yeah. Now what
you need is these physical things and whatever.
I think that if you're looking at him as an industrialist
who's cooperating with the Nazis and whatever,
and then is ahead of these times and understands
the transfer of commodities, I think that that's
what we really see. This is. This is my interpretation
of the ending of the movie, man. That's what
his whole speech is about. This watch could be
another person. This thing could be another.
He's just transferring commodities for the new
commodity, which is fucking the Jew. You know
what I mean? We're going to protect him after
the war and he will live off of them for forever
and be hailed as a fucking god to them or whatever.
And why? Just because he figured out how to transfer...
all of the bad shit he did during the war into
like a new commodity which is this like sort
of absolution uh the the forgiveness of the jew
exactly because like good karma post -holocaust
exactly exactly yeah that's that's where if you're
talking about the other industrialists who survived
by like going let's sure they survived kind of
but schindler is a fucking nazi that we have
a movie made by jews who talk about how glorious
like this nazi was i mean that's a crazy That's
like ahead of the... That really is. That is
true. Like that is true mastery. You know what
else Schindler says to Stern in the first meeting?
He just says like, he says like, I can't do the
work. That's not what I'm good at. I do the presentation.
Yeah. Right. Well, I think that part of it is
like I think that Schindler is a very, very smart
guy, but he's also just like a failed businessman,
like everybody fucking else in the right. Like
it's like failed scientists and failed politicians
and artists who like like finally they kicked
out all of the competent people who were like,
fuck this Nazi thing. Yeah. Like, well. Too bad.
Now it's us. And then the dumbest people in the
world are running shit. I feel like there's part
of it where, like, yeah, Schindler is cunning
and smarter than everybody. But, like, it's also,
like, he couldn't fucking run a business. And
he never did after the war. He never was a successful
businessman at all. It was only this wartime
thing that he, like, it was the only thing that
he was ever successful during. And even then,
like. I mean, maybe the POTS wasn't a scam, but
eventually it was still a scam. He can't produce
things. And maybe the weapons manufacturing thing
is another fucking change of the narrative. It
was just like, dude, I can't make a fucking operating,
like, really good... factory you know what i
mean you know how hard it is to build bombs that
actually go out of the like so it's just kind
of like if you keep failing for a while it's
like no well i'm i'm i'm doing this for the right
reasons i'm a good guy and like you know what
i mean it's it's a lot of this sort of changing
of the narrative thing i think it's very interesting
yeah and i think like connecting to eichmann
and to try the attempt to change the narrative
yeah same with oppenheimer as well um but it
connects with eichmann and i think it connects
a lot with israel um yeah where Specifically,
I think that part of Eichmann in Jerusalem, the
book is talking about the idea of the banality
of evil and that Eichmann himself is not that
different from an American industrialist or something.
Um, but I think that a lot of what the book's
also saying is that there is very little difference
between what Eichmann was doing and what the
Israeli leaders were doing at the time. And like,
not that there was no difference, you know what
I mean? There's, there's a certain, like Eichmann
still wanted to be the Nazi in charge of Israel,
um, or, or, or, of, um, Madagascar. Yeah. there's
a guy in Israel who wanted to be in charge of
Israel and made the same deal. The basic difference
is that he was a Jew and that a lot of what Hannah
Arendt's saying in the Eichmann in Jerusalem
book is that it was very important for Israel
to have this trial. Not because of any figuring
out of the punishment for this person or whatever,
but in order to create a show trial in which
they can actually like create a new narrative
for the Holocaust. That like at the Nuremberg
trials, the Jews were not mentioned specifically.
And that Israel needed to talk about this was
specifically an anti -Jewish thing. That's what
the entire Holocaust was about. And it was about
racism. It was about the hateful racism of this
guy who we want to prove was a racist. And that
makes him different from any of the Jewish people
who also collaborated because they were not racist.
And like they just were doing what they had to
in the place and whatever in time. And they helped
people. They helped 50 ,000. Like, you know what
I mean? Or Schindler helped this many or, you
know. Yeah, Eichmann did deport a lot of Jews
before it got real bad. I mean, he apparently
was making a good faith effort to try and deport
as many Jews as he could. So as not to kill them.
And then, you know, a lot of it after that was
trying to reduce the suffering. He didn't know
they were going to be killed yet, but he knew
they were going to go to a worse place, like
a ghetto or a concentration camp or something.
But obviously, like. people's ignorance of how
evil the Nazis could be was part of why so many
people went along with it. Right. Yeah. But as
I understand it, by the end of the war, by the
end of the war, Eichmann was like enthusiastically
backing the final solution. Um, as in, as in
not, not to say that that was, I, I, my understanding
of him is the same as like, he was like this
kind of design, this like sort of weird proto.
But he was not ignorant of the final solution.
And by the end, he had just kind of like the
years of war and politics had turned him into
this machine that was just really trying to express
the will of the Reich. And the extermination
of the Jews had become really central to the
will of the Reich. And he just kind of blended
into the power structure, which I feel like at
the end of the day. is the lesson again and again
and again with all of these stories that like
there are people who somehow can break free of
this cycle and that and like that's the hero's
fucking story, the hero's journey. But for the
most part, like we are what we eat. And if you
spend every day working for and with this genocidal
machine, it just turns you into a cog in the
machine itself. And that's the case in any kind
of. statecraft, but in the case of Eichmann in
Jerusalem, it's particularly potent because they're
trying to make it something that it's not, which
is utterly banal. The truth is utterly banal,
but they're trying to make it a very particular
story about the Jews' inalienable... how, how
the Jews are inalienably loathsome. Like there,
and this is like, that is kind of my interpretation.
A lot of, a lot of this Zionism, um, is that
it's political Zionism, not spiritual Zionism,
which I feel like is a different thing, but political
Zionism, this like understanding that the Jew
is so like inherently loathsome that like they
can never be safe anywhere in the world and they
need to be here right and like like you could
yeah and like that like i i just take so i just
take so much personal offense to that i find
that to be so intolerable too where she's talking
about like i mean she essentially talks about
like the um um zionist argument or whatever and
then like for like how the jews have been kicked
out of every single place i've ever been for
all these years and that there's this spiritual
thing that blah blah like How very similar that
is to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It's
almost the exact same story, but the difference
is connotation, basically. It is a crazy conspiracy
theory. Do you remember that short scene where
the Jews are in that little powwow in the Krakow
ghetto and they're talking about how it's not
actually so bad there? And it sort of reminds
them of their ancestral squalor. And, like, no
one envies us anymore and stuff like that. The
ghetto is liberty, one of them says. Yeah, yeah.
Right, yeah, really, like, complex. It's spiritually
embedded in the Jew to feel like that's where
they belong or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
And it's so, I mean, yeah, it's just such a dark.
of what Jewishness is. And I do think that, you
know, people on all sides might benefit. And
so, you know, you will 100 % see... like Jews
who are materially and structurally benefiting
from this, like really horrible mythos about
the Jew that we're so detestable that like, we're
not safe anywhere. So we need to have our own
like nuclear backed army to keep us safe because
that's like the only way that the world can actually
be safe. And ironically, they have to commit
their own ethnic cleansing from time to time.
Right. Absolutely. And also generally benefit
from international anti -Semitism. They're sort
of like built such that the more anti -Semitism
there is around the world, the more urgent the
case for Israel becomes. And like states are
the most unscrupulous actors known to nature.
And so like they'll do anything. It doesn't matter.
It's not specific to the nefarious Jewish state
or Zionist state. That's just inherent to any
state. We'll do whatever it can, whatever. whatever
sort of obfuscation or propaganda or intrigue
to cultivate its own necessity. And so, yeah,
I mean, especially as a person who believes that...
um that you know human beings like we live we
are of this earth we live on this earth we cannot
own land that makes no sense we have always been
migratory there's no such thing as like the inherent
connection between land and people if you take
a large enough time scale if you take like a
few thousand years sure maybe but like why not
start where the human story actually begins a
story of like people who move around a lot and
the fact is like the wandering jew for me, reminds
me that, like, as an archetype that I embody
and resonate with, reminds me that, like, actually,
like, I'm home everywhere and the true safe world
for the Jew is a stateless world, one where we
can just wander and be and be of in the ways
that feel aligned and alive, as opposed to this,
like, world of... rigid borders the and like
sort of these dead these dead structure these
structures that are dead to the vitality and
the flow of ecosystem life um and so i find it
yeah i mean i find the premise to be completely
unbearable you know um so yeah anyway that's
what i'll say about the i mean that i mean that
rhymes a lot with like the the path of the average
Jewish person during the Holocaust, because a
lot of what they're doing is like what they've
always done, which is just like negotiate and
try and figure out like, you know, reasonable
deals that can be made in order to like find
some path towards safety. Right. And the idea
that like that path towards safety is actually
just leading them further and further into the
jaws of death or whatever. It's like. That's
like the biggest, most cruelest joke or whatever.
Yeah. And I can't, and I can't. It's that then,
and that the system is, that's what it does is
that it's sort of like. promises you safety,
but then like destroys all humanity and like
vibrance in the process. Right. And that's, it's
like a, and that's the contradiction one at the
heart of capitalism. Of course, capitalism has
its own destruction inherent in its DNA because
of its need for infinite expansion on a finite
earth will obviously eventually destroy itself.
Well, I mean that, that I think is something
that rhymes pretty well with Schindler though,
too. Like he is that industrialist who's trying
to build and build and build, but, I don't know,
going back to the connection to, like, you know,
between Schindler and Eichmann and Israel itself
and these sort of people who make deals to save
certain people and not other people and contribute
to the machine in other ways and whatever. I
think one of the scenes that's really interesting
in Schindler's List is the scene at the hospital
during the... Liquidation. Liquidation, yeah.
Where what the doctors do is, yeah, they kill
the patients through non -painful methods that
they won't be shot. And that's a lot of what
Eichmann kind of was trying to organize. You
know what I mean? It's like... You know, if if
what you're talking about is like, yeah, you're
sending these people to their deaths or whatever.
It's like, yeah, this is a horrible person. But
like, are those two Jewish doctors horrible people?
No, they're they're, you know, doing something
horrible, like gassing people. But like in a
situation where alternatively they're going to
be shot to death or whatever. And that's that's
like part of this. I don't know. I think it's
interesting because like. Spielberg shows us
all of these sort of negative attributes of all
these people, whatever, but then he also motivates
all of them and stuff. You know what I mean?
Like there's some justification of things in
this movie that like, I mean, not justification
of the Holocaust or whatever, but justification
of people's like inherent, like reactions in
the moment or something that allows it to kind
of be a more nuanced, kind of thing than just
I don't know the straightforward like this guy
was a racist and so he did all these things or
Schindler was a great man and so he saved all
these people like yeah I mean you're sort of
in this position you're sort of in this position
where like the inherent outcome um of the like
once the terms are set It's just, like, so unfathomably
destructive. Like, no matter what you do, how
you try to save, you can't help but, like, bring
about the apocalypse if these are the terms.
If the wheels are in motion. If the wheels are
in motion. The machine is running. And these
are the terms. And the only thing that can save
anyone is just, like, basically unconditional
surrender. You know, that's what they're all
sort of like. waiting for just biting the time
for the clock to run out um and that's just um
you know i mean it's kind of it's an unescapable
metaphor for what's happening with the entire
global system right now in terms of the whole
thing being turned into a vision of this sort
of like plantation economy this sort of slavery
economy um just endless extraction for the benefit
of these mutant freaks um and like you know em
on goeth uh but You know, Amon Goeth to the end.
Yeah, like, Amon Goeth, except maybe not as,
like, overtly violent, but, like... You could
also just say Schindler. Like, you know what
I mean? Like, he's just, like, psyched to get,
like... 12 secretaries that he can fuck like
as often as he wants and like to get to take
over this person's apartment who's like you know
royalty jewish royalty but then you know they're
out and he's like this is fucking nice you know
let me get some like 18 year olds in here let
me get some good caviar like this is where it's
at yeah but you're we're still talking about
schindler before he goes through his arc right
exactly um but that's only it's only if you think
he goes through the arc man Well, that's okay.
That's what I'm trying to get to by teasing out
the arc a little more, which is that Spielberg
makes a decision to give Schindler an arc in
this movie from someone who's motivated by capitalistic
gain and fame or kind of just, you know, whatever,
to someone who is actually going broke to save
a bunch of Jews, like that he's obligated to
do it for whatever reason. Or he's just buying
his Oompa Loompas, dude. Like these people worked
for him the rest of his life essentially through
like charity and whatever and allowing him to
exist with failing businesses. I mean I do think
that that is a sort of – that's a very powerful
interpretation of – a man who is like that sort
of capable of reading the direction that the
wind is blowing. And, um, and I do think, I mean,
that, that, that's ultimately why, you know,
it's a masterpiece is because I actually think
it does beautifully hold that ambiguity. And
there totally is like a modeling or, or, or,
or sort of a more sentimental read where it's
just like, Hey, you know, he did have this kind
of awakening. And at the end of the day, why
not both? Like, is it not the case that that's
how life actually is that you have an awakening,
but it's also opportunistic. You realize, Hmm,
whatever it is, even if it's not like apocalyptic
evil, it's just like, Oh, huh. I could do that.
Wait a minute. Maybe that's who I am. And, and
you're like, Oh, actually this is my place in
the order of all things. This is, this is my
destiny. This is my calling into. it comes from
the same impulse, which is being a good listener
for opportunity. And like in the, in the opening
of the film, the opportunity was to make an enamelware
factory with Jewish money and Jewish labor. And
then by the end, the opportunity is to actually
become this like eternal. for the Jews and be
lionized for all of time. And that, like, that's
a type of transformation as well that's facilitated
by the same impulse into, like, intuitive listening.
But ultimately, like, the where of the war, I
think, can't be, you know, written off. Like,
being with this degree of, like, pathological
sickness, like so many people being murdered,
having But undeniably, like, a real relationship
with Itzhak Stern, who even if he is, like, a
bit of an Eichmannoid, also is clearly someone
who Oskar Schindler admires a lot because he
can actually do shit. To a certain degree, yes.
But also, like, he's not—the movie doesn't really
tell us. And when he finally finds Itzhak Stern
on the train, when he's like, he's on this train,
I'm going to find him, he finds him, Stern comes
out, he's just like— what if I had come here
five minutes later? Then where would I be? Right.
That's, he doesn't, I mean, you could say this
is like, this is a buddy comedy, I mean, a buddy
trope where it's like, oh, buddy, like, where
would I be with that? Like, you know, don't kill
yourself because then my life would be, it's
like, no, but like, I think that the movie goes
out of its way. That's another thing too, where
in the book, Ixchak Stern just sees the good
in Schindler right off the bat as well. And so
he has an arc in the movie as well where he comes
around. to seeing schindler as a good man yeah
well he's indoctrinated the way that he eventually
has the drink with like he by the end of this
thing is willing to stand up for the idea like
in spite of all of the like that he was like
literally standing next to goeth and drinking
with him every night and like hanging out with
this guy who was like joyfully killing all these
women all over the place like and we don't see
him I mean, there's a little bit of, like, yeah,
well, what if you tried and, like, not shoot
them? And, you know, he tries and whatever. But
there's not much the movie gives us of Schindler
being upset. Yeah, he tries to suggest he doesn't
shoot them. He, like, he makes them water the
train cars so that they get drinks. Yeah, yeah.
Even though Amon says that's even more cruel.
Right. Yeah. Giving them hope. Yeah, totally.
Totally. Giving him hope. Exactly. But it's a
thing. Smashing him to pieces. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
No, they, yeah, there is, there is, they, they
really do such a great job. The film does such
a great job of like. making this atrocity feel
like so banal in certain moments there there's
at one moment the like a high -ranking nazi i
can't remember his name but he says like you
know that the jews don't have a future here it's
no longer that's no longer just like phoning
mouth anti -semitism like that's policy and just
like the way in which that line is like calmly
delivered as like this is just like this is just
the inherent certainty of the death machine is
um I do think it's masterful. Well, that's why
there's so many mentions of lists and paperwork
all over the place in the movie, too. Because
when he goes to find Stern on the train, they're
just like, well, he's on the list, and the list
is ironclad and whatever. And when he gets Stern
out of there, they're just like, you know, it
doesn't really matter who he is, what Jew he
is. It's just like an inconvenience to the list.
It's the paperwork. Right. And then there's like
the scene where Amon is describing just like,
do you know how annoying it is to set up a concentration
camp? Just like all the paperwork and just bringing
in the engineers and like all this stuff. He's
just like 25 miles of barbed wire fence and just
like he's just going on and on and on or whatever.
There's so many moments like that in the movie.
And then the Jews sort of like sorting out all
the treasures. Right. And stuff like that. There's
just such a like bureaucratic banality to the
way all of it's happened. A hundred percent.
And that's like what the movie is expressing.
It's not expressing like, again, yeah, you see
murders, you see, you see individual pathology.
I mean, you have Amon Goeth, you have a lot of
like. Amon Goeth, the like frontline guy who
has been like surrounded by this real violence
to a level where he's not talking about Eichmann
anymore. He's like a different type of Nazi.
Oh, totally. Yeah. He's a freak. He's a freak.
But like, there are probably lots of, russian
freaks on the ost front too and they're probably
a bunch of american freaks on the front too just
like being a young man and they're young fucking
men they don't know shit that you put you put
a gun in their hands and like this is just what
happens after enough years of war it's like he
almost has less to do with like nazism or anything
in particular as he just has to do with like
the spirit of the war machine like yeah the thing
that inhabits people since the beginning of time
at the front lines this demon that turns them
like you know i mean that sort of thing yeah
Yeah. Well, he's also like, he's frivolous and
he's like, he's like Schindler in a lot of ways
that he just likes the spoils. He likes women.
He likes drinking. He likes having a good time
and all this sort of stuff. He likes being rich
and he likes the money. But, but, but he's not
smart, but he, but he's undeniably. Yeah. Yeah.
Less intelligent. But that main difference between
them about what they think power is, you know?
Yeah. And he, and there's just no question that
he is just like boorish. and nowhere near as
like subtle and refined as Oskar Schindler is,
which I think is like, you know, an appropriate
expression of what Nazism really did, what it
was based upon was this kind of like this brash
sort of capitalizing on this political cohort
of sort of like brash like loud young men who
like were like determined like like they weren't
pretty they were rough around the edges but they
were like they would get they would kick the
doors down of like corrupt jewelry and they would
like get the country back on track by being like
action oriented as opposed to more kind of you
know thoughtful and subtle And I do think that
Oskar Schindler represents the subtler mind of
the German industrialist who like comes to understand
actually this Nazism thing is really economically
valuable, like economically and politically valuable.
at this moment and is willing to work alongside
it for the common ends of like, you know, the
spoils of war basically. But there's always a
disjunction in the Reich between like the frontline
Nazi fanatics who are just these like, yeah,
they're fucking, they're bored. They're kind
of just like, yeah, they're dumb and they're
racist and they're super aggressive. Um, and,
uh, and the, the power structure that sees them
as, ultimately politically expedient in terms
of first getting rid of getting rid of the communists
but then also just creating wartime economy that
is so conducive to like you know uh insane uh
yeah privateers but also the secrecy of the final
solution and how kind of like it didn't become
policy until way later, like way after ghettos
were being formed. It was a slow burn. I guess
we're talking it's like six years or something,
but it's still kind of a slow burn. It was done
incrementally. It's incremental adjustments.
Done incrementally. It's like the frog that boils
or something. But apparently it isn't true. I
think frogs get out of the woods. So I think
part of it is Schindler just doesn't, like everybody
else, understand the magnitude of what's actually
happening yet. And as the movie goes on, he,
I think, he does realize the cruelty. He does
realize just how far they're willing to go and
all this kind of stuff and that he really is,
like, saving these people by having them work
at the factory when that wasn't really a concern
before. He was just trying to get cheap labor.
Right. You know? Right. Why would I hire Poles?
They're more expensive. Right. That's the only
justification is a capitalist justification,
neoliberal justification. But his transition
happens because, like, Regina Perlman comes and,
like, asks for him to get her parents into the
factory. And, like, he kind of yells at her.
He's like, it's not what I do. He's like, you
won't entrap me and all this stuff. And then
the next scene, he's, like, complaining to Stern
about, like, they're saying it's a haven. No,
it's not an enterprise or whatever. So he's like,
this is the part where he sort of, like, goes
through transition because he actually defends
Goth. Yeah. He, like, defends Goth as someone
who wouldn't be this bad in normal civilized
society. And that, like, it's all just circumstance
and stuff. And I think that gets to the core
of it. It's just, like, the idea that it's just
convenient for Oscar to start doing that at that
point. He's like, wait, if this is what this
is, if this is the haven for these Jews, and
that's, like, what's coming naturally, and this
is just what's working out, I am in the position
where I can do this. I didn't, like, try to get
into this position. I didn't ask for this, but
I'm here, so I guess I'm going to make this decision.
And that decision, once he sees the writing on
the wall of the cruelty... of Amon and the whole
entire Nazi regime, he sees the writing on the
wall on that point and knows that, oh, this money
is going to be worthless and it would be more
convenient to invest in this human labor and
I'll buy all this good faith. You know what I
mean? It's already been brought up before how
much good faith came to Schindler because of
these decisions. And how he's protected from
the gallows for being a Nazi collaborator and
whatever. Right. And it's the only currency that
survives being taken over by the West. Yeah.
Is like the goodwill. He specifically tells Rudolf
Haas after giving him diamonds, we're all going
to need portable wealth. Yeah. I mean, and that's
and it's the same with the earlier conversation
about no money isn't money anymore. I think there's
a lot in this movie about I mean, there's specifically
like on the on the Nazi side of things. There's
the transference of people into wealth, the concentration
of this wealth from, you know, like all the teeth.
Yeah. I mean, the gold, whatever it is. but it's
also the transfer of wealth into people. This
watch could have gotten another thing. Yeah,
that's super deep. I like to think of this movie
as, like we were talking about Ikemen in Jerusalem,
I think of this as Schindler's List, a report
on the banality of good and evil. These are both
motivated by the same things and stuff. The saving
of these Jews is very similar to the accumulation
of this wealth through like the cooperation.
Like, you know what I mean? But just to, to,
to, and there is some good being done there.
There is. Well, but at the end of the day, like
if the ultimate takeaway of the movie, if, if
Schindler's like moment of revelation, um, where
he is saved to history, um, is realizing actually
like it's not simply that these are interchangeable
forms of wealth, like the Reichsmarks versus
like Jewish goodwill, Jewish lives. It's not
simply that they're interchangeable. It's that
one is actually supreme. And that, and that like
goodwill is actually the ultimate currency of
history. And it's the ultimate currency of transformation
and good and life on planet earth. And that actually
the Reichsmark is like so many other things,
just like a passing thing coming and going. But,
but like eternity, the currency of eternity is
goodwill. And that's, that's not actually a cynical
message. No, I feel that. That's, that's. in
a way a hopeful message. And if that's your takeaway,
it's like boys and girls make sure to be good
because your money's actually no good in the
longterm. What's actually good is like getting,
you know, getting like incurring the goodwill
of humanity, you know, or, or the juice of the
juice. I absolutely agree. I think like, um,
Steven Spielberg is a. I feel like he's an earnest
filmmaker, and he has a heart. He's not a complete
cynical filmmaker, but I do think he's more intelligent
than... The people who complain about this movie's
sentimentality aren't really seeing that there
are all these other intellectual levels to it
that call just a little bit of question and nuance
to the way it's being presented to you and stuff
like that. I think, like you said before, it
is a both -and, where Chandler... can both be
like doing this thing of goodwill that is beautiful,
but that it's also sort of making the, the, the
banality of good, uh, argument that like, well,
it's just kind of because he was in the position
to do so. He had to, in order to survive, like,
you know, and that, that led him to doing really
bad things. And that led him to doing really
good things. And it's led him on Goeth to do
bad things. And it's led his extern to think
he was doing a bad thing, but it turns out he
was doing a good thing. Like, but these are all
people who are just sort of like, The kind of
depictions of the banality of evil like or just
banality in general like because Oscar Schindler
or it's extern specifically like he thinks he
is selling out the Jews to Oscar Schindler for
most of the movie. I mean, he says later in the
movie, I know the destination. I have to help
organize the shipments and put myself on the
last train. Right. Yeah, he knows what's going
on. I mean, that's that's like, you know what
I mean? Almost. Yeah. That's true banality. But
then it turns out that it happens to be for a
good cause, to save these people. And it's kind
of the same with all of Schindler's Motivation.
But I would say it does produce real good that
lasts for generations and that sort of thing.
There is something superior to that type of wealth
accumulation as opposed to the accumulation of
Reichsmarks or whatever. That's the difference
between Schindler and Amon. That's the difference
between Schindler and Amon. And the difference
in power. That's the difference. Yeah, exactly.
That's the difference between a hero's journey
and like a villain's descent into... ignominy
you know what i mean it's like i think that spielberg
chooses to have his final like breakdown situation
happen in a way where like he describes everything
in purely economic terms yeah like he's like
he the whole breakdown is like it's kind of a
beautiful scene that gets you worked up and makes
you you know it's it's a tearjerker but it's
almost like comedically satirically like just
on like people as commodities like my watch is
worth it is worth five jews exactly like it is
almost comedic it's it's horrible and he's finding
the irony in that and just seeing all that whatever
but like it's also just like this is as far as
his mind can go almost or it's like he's just
like no but they're commodities they're just
like all the other commodities that i've been
like and i could have traded this for that and
this would have been a good deal i missed out
on a fucking good deal you're you're so you're
so he's upset that he's missing out on a good
deal yeah I also like that right before that
he admits to being a criminal to all of them.
And that he's going to have to flee. And then
he gives the soldiers an opportunity to kill
the Jews. It's crazy. But he's like, or you could
go home as men and not murderers. That's a really
different ending to this movie. Yeah. He's just
like, guys, go ahead if you want to. And they
just kill them all. It's like, Jesus Christ.
Yeah. bluffing guys yeah yeah really really playing
with fire there dude oh right 100 you probably
would have been like you need to get me 500 you
gotta replace those jews yeah yeah because i
can save those yeah yeah exactly because this
goodwill stock is that's going i got you gotta
buy now no no i mean i I totally acknowledge
that dimension and especially the parallelism
with the golden teeth, like the gold teeth earlier
in the movie. And this idea of gold and Jewish
life and money and the Holocaust and all this,
that alchemy. And I... Yeah, 100%. That ambiguity
is there. That conversation has to be there.
This is like an incredibly... Well, it's an incredibly...
deep and subtle masterwork but it's also about
like the most important and confounding questions
in human affairs which is the question yeah like
this question of like economy versus human life
and how do we come to terms how do we how do
we hope to understand the scope of these horrors
that have been perpetrated um you know and that
just seemed to be like what the moral reality
is of anything. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly.
And so to really like honestly ask that question
to just have that revelation around like gold
and like Jewish life. It doesn't necessarily
mean that it's not genuine, but that it's just
both. It's just all of the things. It is, like,
genuine, but it's also, like, it ultimately,
like, betrays this really sick world order, which,
like, you know, continues to be fucking sick.
You know, the war never ended. The war never
ended. I mean, the Nazis as an ideology were
like officially defeated, but it continues. They
just moved over to NASA, dude. Yeah, they just
moved to fucking NASA. They just started their
new techno -utopian ideal, like, you know what
I mean? It was slightly less racist, I guess,
but it's the same. Yeah, but then honestly, like
a lot of the neo -Nazis in Latin America that
the U .S. Empire was supporting throughout, and
it continues to basically support until this
day, but throughout the 70s, 60s, 70s, 80s. 90s
the dirty wars are like i remember some there
was some like ex -cia official who had like you
know a come to jesus moment um who said something
like if you were an alien species examining the
world in the 1980s and you like saw what was
going on in latin america you naturally would
have thought that the nazis won world war ii
right like that would have been the inescapable
conclusion um and and you know in the end like
um it was just kind of it was Like, supremacist
oligarchic infighting is really what it was.
I mean, and also the Brits were the quote -unquote
victors of World War II. And at the time, they
were committing this, like, unimaginable atrocity
in Bengal. And, like, the forced famine killed
millions of Indian people. I mean, it's always
been fake, man. The narrative that the Allies
were just the good ones and the Reich were the
bad ones. And, like, all this stuff is just bullshit.
And that's the whole thing of, like, going back
to just, like, the stuff in Oppenheimer and this
whole idea of the narrative and of the historical
record and what's left behind, I think Spielberg's
movie does a really interesting job at calling
attention to that because of the way it treats
the source material, which... claims to be some
kind of accurate account of Schindler's life,
even though it probably isn't. It's probably
more like a piece of propaganda. Right, right.
And then it's all kind of like, do we even really
know this true story of Schindler? Because apparently
in historical records, Schindler had nothing
to do with the list at all. So the entire thing
is kind of just like a weird made -up fantasy,
maybe. You know what I mean? No one really knows.
Like, Goldberg is the one who wrote the list.
It was Goldberg's list? It was Goldberg's list.
Goldberg and Stern and someone else are the ones
who wrote it. Stern did write the list in the
movie. The idea that there was Schindler standing
there remembering all the names of his Jews and
making the list is a fantasy. Stern grabbed all
the Jews in the first place in the movie. He
got the ones at the beginning. And I guess, like,
the whole last thing where, like, the girls go
to Auschwitz and he saves them, too, is, like,
that is another moment that, like, adds more
complexity because he really is trying to get
those specific girls. And that's why he says
you shouldn't get hung up on names or whatever.
It's, like, he offers him, like, a whole other
train car of Jews. Like, he could have just saved,
like, the exact amount, if not more people. but
he just wants his Jews. Right, exactly. And then
Haas says that's going to be a lot of paperwork.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. It is kind of funny
that it's like, I think it was Kubrick. Kubrick
said something about this movie. It's like, dude,
no, like you think this movie is about the Holocaust?
Like the Holocaust is about success is about,
is about like 6 million people who died. Like
Schindler's List is about like 600 people who
didn't, you know? Right. And, and, and, and I
do feel that, that that is like this, this crazy
backdrop to the movie. That is that is also definitely
reminiscent of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate
Factory. This feeling that like these were the
chosen ones, but like. just unfathomable numbers
who are just passed over unfathomable numbers
who like didn't get chosen by, by, by, by this
Moses. Um, and it's the same as Charlie bucket.
Who's like, happens to be, you know, the, like
the lucky one who gets saved from like grinding
poverty, but like, and so he loves Wonka, right?
Yeah. And so he loves Wonka. And so he loves
Wonka. Even though the other seven got murdered
in front of him. Right. That's why the ending
of she knows this is even more. Is he like, The
ending of Chandler's List is kind of comical
as well when he actually has the real survivors
put all those rocks on his grave because it's
such an over -sentimental procession. And then
the very last thing it says in text is, in memory
of the six million Jews that died. Right. It
feels like such a weird punchline to parade out
the few survivors and then say in memory of the
6 million Jews that died. I think that's what's
interesting about this movie is we're talking
about the 6 million who died or the 600 who lived,
but we're talking about them very similarly.
You know what I mean? The reason that these 600
were saved is very similar to the reason that
the other 6 million were killed. Really banal
-ass reasons of a bunch of people who were enjoying
war. And like trying to survive the end of the
war. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think that that is,
that's definitely like the linchpin moment there.
This like, like dichotomy that, that, that sheds
light on, on Kubrick's insight when they're all
in the gas, the quote unquote gas chamber versus
shower together. Because I remember when I saw
that, even when I saw it this time, I saw it
not too long ago. I saw it like two years ago.
I was mind blown by it. And then I saw it again,
like, you know, these past couple of few days
I watched it. And, and like, There is so much
tension in my body when they are being herded
into the gas chamber and then the door is locked.
And it's just like this unescapable feeling of
like just unfathomably many people who heard
the fucking shower door lock and that was the
end for them. And the screaming that followed
that and how established that is in the cultural
memory, but also just in like the living memory
of Jewish. minds and bodies um that that like
i was feeling all this like tension in my body
i had forgotten that it actually turns out to
be the showers i mean it's just like it's the
showers it's like this gotcha moment it's like
haha this movie's not about those juice this
movie's about the special that's exactly what
i'm saying yeah exactly so like that that was
like that was my old critique with that scene
yeah i think it's exactly what you're saying
yeah yeah yeah completely completely yeah it's
not about those juice it's about the banality
of this good thing that happened it works so
well on rewatch knowing that it's not actually
a gas chamber just like it all just plays so
well yeah it does it doesn't need to be an actual
tension building thing like For it to work so
well. Right, 100%. And then I think what you
said, the line that you brought up earlier, Tony,
is so on point, is so necessary, where Oscar
Schindler's like, I'm a presentation man. Because
at the end of the day, this film is like an incredibly
sumptuous and cinematic expression of the Schindler
myth, and that actually this is the final and
finest product of his life's work, is like...
this is best picture. This is $350 million, uh,
like in box office receipts worldwide. This is
this name that is forever hallowed. And, and
what you say about the name, I think is also
really interesting and important because they
bring up the name Schindler's name. They like
create this tension around Schindler's name in
the, in the first scene of the movie where like,
they don't say his name until they're ready.
Who is he? Who is he? Who is he? They don't say
their name, his name until he's ready. And it's
like, Oscar Schindler, this is the name that
will, reverberate throughout history for all
time. And that, that, that on some level, another
name is called out. It's like, it's, it's for
the same thing. It's like, Oh, your name is going
to go down on the list. Yeah. In the books on
the list. If you don't give me these guys and
you're going to be in Siberia, if you don't agree
with me, it's next turn. Then like, who knows
what I said after we cut there. Like, you know,
you need to get your Jews to support me. Right.
Right. This is, this is, this is the arc. This
is the arc of history. This is the arc of redemption.
Um, uh, it's so funny, actually the arc of redemption,
like the, the, the word play there, like the
idea of fucking Schindler's arc or Schindler's
arc. It's like his character arc, how he redeems
himself. But it's also this idea of like the
arc, the arc of redemption itself is an arc that
you can climb into to survive, to survive the
stores. Yeah. The storms of, of, of war. They
weather the storm. Yeah. And he weathered the
storm. And, and, and so what's, what's incredible
about this, about this work is how, yeah, it
reaches. back into history and the very question
of filmmaking myth making what is this as the
final product being that of like the cultural
imagination and like that's who schindler is
he like is just he is a kind of like a movie
man you know he's like he's presentation he's
so dashing he's so handsome he says everything
at the right time he like lights your cigarette
just when you need it to be lit he's like he's
like he's subtle he's masterful he gets all the
sexy ladies all this business And like his final
work in the world is this piece of this, you
know, this this this this piece of propaganda
to burnish the cult of his own personality, which
is like, you know. Like there are 6 ,000 plus
Schindler Jews who are living in the world who
are forever be known as like the Schindler Jews,
like Schindler's Jews. Just as its own kind of
like, what? It's crazy. It's like Oompa Loompa.
It's like Oompa Loompa shit. I went and I saved
them from the fucking whatever the fuck, like
crazy evil place that they came from. And now
they work for me for forever. Right, right. You're
right. It's so. I actually thought there was
something like oddly ominous and freaky about
the shot where all the Jews are walking over
the horizon. Yeah, and the Oompa Loompa music
starts playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It
is weird, dude. It's a weird final scene. Right
before that, they're all, like, laying on the
ground, right? And, like, the guy approaches
on the horse, and they're like, where can we
go? He's like, you are liberated. And they're
like, where can we go? And he's like, well, don't
go east. They hate you there. He's like, but
isn't there some town? He's like, isn't there
some town over there? And that's a huge moment
in the movie. And it looks like they're wandering
through the desert. And it's like, well, where
are they wandering to? And then it's the whole
fucking trauma cycle all over again. I think
that allows you to tie Schindler to Israel and
Israeli leaders because the Israel thing is all
discussed at the end of the movie as this sort
of final thing. And like, that's, that's why
I think there's the connection between Schindler
and Eichmann and Schindler and Israeli leaders
at the time and that sort of thing. Like, I think
this is part of the, and he kind of fills in
that last Israeli puzzle piece there, like at
the very end, kind of being like in this. It's
kind of like his ending of Munich. At the end
of Munich, it talks about the nine out of 11
guys that died or whatever. It's got the twin
towers in the background or whatever. He also
has Eamon. Eamon has that whole speech where
he says like... about Krakow. They came here
with nothing and they flourished for six centuries.
There's been a Jewish Krakow. This evening, all
six centuries are a rumor. They never happened.
Today is history. Yeah, that was an absolutely
blood -chilling moment. That was a blood -chilling
moment in the film. Really, really powerful.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, it's like... I know
that it couldn't have been intentional exactly,
but watching this movie in 2024, like, how can
you not see Palestine? How can you not see Palestine?
Yeah, I know. How can you not see Palestine?
I was worried that would come up. Yeah. I'm just
kidding. I'm just kidding. And I'm allowed to
say it. I'm allowed to say it. And I don't, like,
I'm not joking, fellas. I might ask. for you
to cut this from, from the back and forth, because
I do want to, I hope not. I, I, I, I hope not.
I, I, I don't think I will, but I do want to
share this with my peeps. And, and like, I, I,
I do like, these are some really. potent words
that could really, really hurt some feelings
of, of Jewish people who are deeply beloved to
me. So I want to be like sensitive to that fact.
Um, and just like, absolutely. Yeah. And just
acknowledge and like acknowledge the, like the
depth of the pain and like the screaming of the
ancestors in our bones. And like all that, like
all that fear and reactivity is all like so justified
historically. And yet it's super important for
us. to see the deeper patterns at work here,
the patterns of empire and trauma cycles playing
themselves out. When Oskar Schindler moves into
this Jewish person's house and they're just,
like, gone, and you talk about 600 years of Jews
in Krakow, now just a memory, just a rumor, I
mean, like, you can't not see Palestine. You
just can't not see it. The fucking project of
making it like, oh, actually, the Palestinians
are some weird historical rumor. Like, that's
the idea. It's like, oh, and, like, I'm super,
I've got some Zionists, like, I've got... Zionists
in my family who I'm like incredibly, incredibly
close to and and like listening to their understanding
of like the Palestinian people, like the story
of the Palestinian people, because of the sort
of the the mythos that they've imbibed as like
really like avid ultra Zionists is. so confused
it's like literally like oh they're actually
Palestinians are actually some sort of like historical
rumor there was never such a thing as Palestine
it was never a real thing it was just like oh
yeah it was like some people from Jordan who
like came to work there because like there were
Jews there creating like lots of jobs and lots
of work so like that's why there were Palestinian
people there in the first place was because the
Jews made this like a place of economic activity
but basically the whole message being that they're
actually a weird historical rumor which is just
like exactly what fucking Amon Goeth says 600
years of course it's more than that in the case
of the Levant but it's just like yeah how could
you not how could you not see it I don't know
it's like I don't I don't suppose that this is
what Spielberg was intending I'm not going to
suppose that but I do believe that you know with
eternal masterworks and genius of his order like
you're touching into something that your mind
can't comprehend and like it's just unavoidable
it's just an unavoidable fucking parallel to
watch this movie in 2024 i mean i i think that
you know a lot of that that we see in 2024 i
think was already evident in the 90s and 100
oh 100 but like spielberg is a guy the best for
me is you know like i was talking about the ending
of munich implicating that like 9 -11 is what
comes from this sort of thing whatever um the
Blu -ray of Munich. If you put it in, it starts
with Spielberg giving you like an introduction
where he specifically says, like, I just want
everybody to know. don't make the mistake that
I'm not being critical of Israel. He says like
a double negative or whatever. He's like, I'm
totally not being critical of Israel. But he
says it in a weird double negative way. He's
like, just don't make the mistake that I'm not
making the mistake about being critical of Israel
in this movie because in no way am I not doing
that. It's very funny. But it is like in order
to release a movie like that. The war in Lebanon
had already began before that too. So Israel's
history has always kind of been a little bit,
Oh, no, no, no. The Nachbat is not dissimilar
to the liquidation of Krakow, is the God's honest
truth. I'm not sure of the Nachbat. That happened
six years later. That happened six years later.
It's like it's actually it's crazy. It's actually
unfathomable. But the Nachba looked like, you
know, like there were ways in which I mean, there
were obviously they're obviously different. But
but in terms of the scale, for sure, the Nachba
exceeded that of the liquidation of Krakow. But
also the Holocaust also exceeds the scale of.
of the crime of whatever, not the scale, whatever,
you know, these are, it's grotesque to even compare
these. These are both crimes of the highest order.
So let's just leave it at that. Well, so crimes
against humanity, right? That term had to be
invented after the Holocaust. That's something
that Hannah Arendt gets into in her book as well.
And that's even something that gets brought up
in this movie when like Schindler. says, like,
you'll get special treatment, and Stern's like,
I hear a lot about special treatment these days.
He's like, okay, preferential treatment, what?
Do we have to invent a new language? And he's
like, I think we do. Yeah, right, right, 100%.
And it's like, yeah, this idea of, like, Amon
Goth was hanged for crimes against humanity.
Like, it's a thing that didn't exist before the
Holocaust, and, like, this whole international
community came together and tried to, like, invent...
um the the international rules of law yes that
like can't be enforced and to this day are being
today are being tested oh yeah i mean that's
the hilarious thing that they're also being dismantled
by the quote -unquote jewish state like the the
last vestiges of their legitimacy are being completely
dismantled by the jewish state so it's funny
because they developed in response to the jewish
uh genocide the jewish holocaust but they're
also now being like full i mean which i mean
they kind of developed in response to but they
kind of developed in coordination with i mean
when they chose the people who were allowed to
come to israel yeah of our agreement and stuff
i mean the people who start that are are not
of the Holocaust, right? I mean, I guess they
are survivors, but they didn't go through the
Holocaust. Yeah, they escaped. And then they
got a lot of reparations after the Holocaust
to create an entire country. But, you know, who
didn't get the reparations were all the Jews
that were sentenced to death. All the people
who, you know what I mean? A lot of that money
went to, you know, these Israeli leaders that
then created a country and then had their own
Holocaust. Right, right, right. We could say
there are differences and whatever, but I think
that part of the thing is that These are not
necessarily the same people who, you know, were
in the concentration camps in, you know, Poland.
You know what I mean? No, they were not. And
then it's a famous fact that like Holocaust survivors
in Israel to this day are often like living in
poverty, et cetera, et cetera. That's wild. I
did not know that. Yes, it's true. I mean, they're
just. You know, for all of the ways in which
the Holocaust is used as like the central historical
justification for the state of Israel, the actual
Holocaust survivors are not en masse treated
as well as you would expect them to be treated.
A lot of them are living in poverty. They're
not just getting all of the reparations straight
to them and allowing to divide it up. poor in
a society that got all the reparations for what
they went through yeah and for what like yeah
for their own particular project and for their
own you know particular political ends right
yeah i mean yeah no i mean it's it's it's it's
it's it's hard to say what like steven spielberg
was like is is truly in touch with when when
uh like consciously well i know at this point
he was rediscovering his judaism he'd just gotten
with his new wife um Yeah. And she wanted to
convert and whatever. And he, you know, had historically
not really been super forward with his Judaism
in his movies or whatever. So it's there. It's
very much there. Of course. But... You know,
he talks about having a certain shame about being
called shmuel by like his grandfather in front
of the other kids and stuff and trying to hide
his Judaism and that sort of thing, whatever.
And that his marriage to Kate Capshaw and her
wanting to convert whatever was his like reintroduction
to Judaism and this sort of spiritual thing.
But I think it's it's not just like. He just
got the Israeli lobbies fucking story and then
converted that into a movie. Like, you know what
I mean? This is like, this is a very nuanced
and like learned approach to the Holocaust. It's
like as nuanced as you can have a conversation
about this. It contains all of these contradictions
and weird things that speak to so many bigger
psychological things that, I mean. You don't
have the story of the Holocaust because, like,
there's just so many fucking stories. And, like,
it's kind of the same with this, where it's like
you don't really have this, but there's so many
things that it talks about. Its connections to
capitalism, its connections to Israel. Similarly
with Eichmann in Jerusalem, everything that Hannah
Arendt talks about in relation to the Holocaust
is only something that stems from a direct connection
to Eichmann or what was brought up at the trial.
And she ends up going into so much more about
the Holocaust, specifically because of the nature
of the trial, trying to pin so many crimes against
humanity, actually crimes against the Jews specifically,
they say in that trial, on Eichmann, and bring
up so many Holocaust survivors to give testimonies
on their experiences, even though they have nothing
to do with Eichmann. And so her like... her account
of the trial ends up being, like, a pretty amazing
account of the Holocaust, even though it's only,
like, the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. You know?
Yeah. When you really think about just, like,
and it blew my mind this time reading it, just,
like, how many fucking countries were involved,
how many people had to be complicit in actually
going along with the shit. Yeah, like, remediation.
Like, while a two -front war is going on, like,
it's the most insane, like, confluence of circumstances.
Yeah. That's, like, basically unfathomable and
impossible to totally suss out. Yeah, yeah, totally.
And, like, Romania. Romania, like, killing its
Jewish population before Ikeman even gets there.
I know, yeah, dude, Romania was evil. But then
they changed. Like, Schindler, they all of a
sudden, like, have a change of heart when it
becomes policy. Yeah. Like, when the Nazis tell
them to do it, they don't do it. And the genuinely
hopeful notes about the lowland countries, like,
or, like, I think it was Denmark. Was it Denmark?
Denmark. Denmark saved their Jews. Denmark saved
their Jews because of, like, sustained, like,
organized moral outrage. And all that is actually,
like, being, yeah, I mean, that's, like, the
inescapable conclusion, I think, of Hannah Arendt's
work is that, like, it's about the conditions.
And it's about, like, what the conditions, what
the social and cultural and economic conditions
yield. what that's the sort of people who are
created sort of monsters that are created during
these times that we are fundamentally like I
mean, it's such a deep, it's such a deep revelation
about the nature of human life and identity,
but that we are ultimately like expressions of
culture, ecology, and community. We are not these
unitary bulbs. I am, you know, heavy meadow.
And I'm just like, not to be like, I'm just like
this insulated ball bubble that'll like move
through my life as no, it's like, I'm a swirling
vector of complexities and inputs and throughputs
and outputs. And, and that, um, you know, when.
The conditions are right for people to, like,
resist and organize moral outrage in functional
and impactful ways. Like, that is how you save
Jews. You don't, like, really save Jews. Yeah,
like, I mean, that is how you... I don't want
to just say... Save Jews. That's how you save
lives. That's how you... That's how you save
Jews. Yeah, yeah. And that's actually... Save
us, save us. I wanted to just, like, just note
that weird thing about, like, crimes against
Jews versus crimes against humanity that they
sort of, like, centered in the Eichmann trials,
that Israel centered in the Eichmann trials.
Like, that's the whole thing that creeps me out
so foundationally about Zionism, removing Jews
from humanity. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry, but I'm
a fucking human. Like, I'm sorry, Zionists. Zionists.
I'm sorry, Nazis. I belong to humanity. There
is no difference between them and the people
who are saying Jews are lizard people. Yeah,
yeah. At that point, the conspiracies are the
Zionist viewpoint. And it's so crazy. It's so,
yeah. It's just like you guys get along with.
Yeah, I mean, they're inalienable. I mean, you
need one for the other. Like the political project
needs this like vision of like the ultimate.
the ultimate monstrosity of like the Jews not
belonging anywhere. And yeah, I mean, I'll just,
yeah, I can't like, I am a person who absolutely
believes that, you know, if you're a Jewish person,
you should be able to live safely anywhere in
this world, which of course includes somewhere
between the river and the sea. So like, like
live with the matriarchs and the patriarchs.
There's no question that our people. like develop
their foundational practices and ways of being
in that land. And if you feel called to be there,
you should be safe living there. And if you're
a Palestinian, you should be able to be safe
living there, or you should be able to be safe
living anywhere because like, that's the ultimate
dream of a healed earth. Like us actually like
being safe. where we are, not just having these
conditions within which, these certain parameters
within which we can be safe. We can only be safe
behind these walls. Behind these walls, yeah,
the nation state, the borders. You really are
arguing for a much broader perspective than the
movie maybe gets into, but I totally agree that
the whole conflict and all these things really
do speak to that at the most deep level. just
this idea of where you feel like you're at home
and where you feel safe. And does it make sense
that we have like this one fixed place we call
home or is the earth our home and is every person
our brother? And it's like that kind of constant
like battle and dichotomy. Yeah. Yeah. And I,
and I want to, yeah, totally. And I, and I agree
that on the one hand, Schindler's List isn't
really asking those questions and it isn't really
going there. On the other hand, my own personal
belief about the Jews and our story and, like,
what our story can offer the rest of humanity
as a cautionary tale and as a hopeful tale is
this foundational reality that, like, you know...
as a stateless people, as a people who were stateless
for the vast majority of our... And a victimized
people. Yeah, stateless and marginalized, that
truly a safe world for us, the canaries in the
coal mine, is a world where there are not states.
There are not regimes. of militarized borders,
you know, within which there is a single, you
know, bureaucratic mechanism of violence. Like,
that is not a world that is safe for Jews or
ultimately anyone else, you know, with the Jews
as the canaries in the coal mine as we... always
were and and and and really today man and today
it's like that's the yeah like all of israel
is being used since world war ii as the canary
it's like little open wound in the middle of
like the hotbed of everything so that like you
know, we can test out our weapons there and we
can figure out surveillance things and we can
do it. And anybody who's really mad at America,
they're probably going to come at Israel first.
Right, right, exactly. You know what I mean?
And then do all the bad work, which is basically
what the fucking Nazis did to the Jews. That's
what the Nazis did to the Jews. That is what
that is. I mean, this is, Hannah Arendt writes
about this, writes about the court Jew volubly
when she, I think she. Yeah, I think it's an
origins of totalitarianism. She writes about
the court show this like like structural fact
of like the Jews, like there were always Jews
who in exchange for like at least temporary,
at least the illusion of safety would do the
dirty work of the empire, would do like run the
finances of the empire so that. when shit goes
down, no, and people start raising the pitchforks
instead of any kind of structural transformation.
The King just says it was the Jews fault. The
Jew corrupted society. And then they just like
kill. He made the atomic bomb. Yeah. Then they're
just, then they'll just do a pogrom and kill
like, you know, like 10 ,000 Jews, get it out
of their system, expel the Jews from Spain, expel
wherever the fuck, just get it out of their system.
And then there can be another cycle of like,
like corruption. Yeah. Yeah. Bringing in. Yeah.
And so that, that this is like this and that,
and that Israel is the ultimate embodiment of
that shape, the ultimate embodiment of that shape.
And then that's exactly what like, and so it's
just, what's so heartbreaking and horrifying
about what's happening in the world right now
is that, is that, yeah, like that, that this
process is, is still very much so underway. And
like the Jew has through pursuing or this group
of Jews through pursuing this, like, perceived
vision of like safety has actually created the
conditions for a global type of antisemitism
to rise that probably exceeds anything that humanity
knew before because of how like imperative it's
been for Israel to wire up all these fucking
connections all over the world to make viable
its inherently unstable, unsafe, insecure project.
And so now it's... Israel is like ironically
counterproductive to the safety of the Jewish
diaspora. Oh, a hundred percent. And in this
way, it is this like embodiment of Hitler's worst
vision for what the Jews were as these like,
you know, these actors that like, you know, are
trying to, they have dual loyalty and they're
trying to wire up the world to be, you know,
in service to this like political pride. in this
incredibly, like, potent corner of the world.
And so, yeah, it's just what is so weird about
and so horrifying about this moment right now
of ultimate, like, cultural awakening and reckoning
is this, like, it's almost like the second, I
mean, it is the second chapter of the Holocaust.
It really is the second chapter of the Holocaust,
one with the genocide against the Palestinian
people, but then also with, like, How it has
in so many ways. I like I don't want to like,
you know, overstate the case, but like has. just
dehumanized a lot of Jews, has inured them to
the unimaginable like suffering that this political
project is causing. And like, I've just seen
a lot of Jews express disdain for disdain for
Palestinian life, which I can only describe as
like inhuman callousness, you know, just like,
like, like, of course, they're Jewish people,
some of whom I love with all of my heart, like
the people most important to me in my entire
world. But, like, there's, like, this dimension
of inhumanity there where it's just, like, this
callousness of just, like, dang, that is just,
it's like a mutant. It's, like, monstrous. That
is born of, like, such unimaginable historical
trauma that has been capitalized on by the Empire.
But it also comes from being in the middle of
a hotbed and stuff. You know what I mean? It
comes from just being in a war zone. That's how
you get a name on Goth. Yeah, totally. You get
young men in a situation where they can rape
and kill all these women, they're going to do
it. They're going to turn into fucking monsters.
And it doesn't really matter. Unless you're racist
enough to think that the race matters somehow,
then the race doesn't really matter. It's going
to happen to everybody. Yeah, the race doesn't
matter at all. Germans do it, Jews do it, Africans
do it. It's almost hard to believe that a character
as terrible as Amon Goethe would exist, but apparently
he was even worse than he was described in the
movie, or portrayed in the movie. But seeing
these IDF soldiers just TikTok their atrocities
and laugh about it is some pretty crazy stuff.
You're just like, oh, wow. There actually is
a serious full metal jacket dehumanization to...
the horror and pain you inflict on others. That's
very real. It's just like, yeah. And a dehumanization
that gets you to that point. And then there's
a dehumanization that takes you from that point.
Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
well, and that's of course the irony that's just
like the sort of like the, the, the poetic heartbreak,
the poetic tragedy is that like, however much
you dehumanize, like the other that you are like,
like participating in the extermination of is
the degree to which you dehumanize yourself.
And just, like become just this mutant to the
world. I was just like, who the fuck are these
people? And it's, it's, it's a really, yeah,
it's a very hard thing to be a Jewish person
and see it happening at this sort of scale, you
know? Um, and in this, and, and, and in this
sort of like in such brazen ways, in such brazen
terms, I'm like, yeah, I, it's, it's hard to
say. It's hard to know what to say other than
to just like, you know, try to stay open to the
historical lesson and know that, like, that these
are cycles of suffering that, of course, did
not end with the end of World War II and Hitler,
like, turning his gun on himself. Like, these
are cycles of suffering that are inherent to
our mode of, like... accumulation, economy, human
affairs, and that there's kind of no way out
other than to actually do the deep work of transformation
at the individual and community and ecosystem
level. It's like the hardest thing of all time,
but we don't have a choice because the world
is dying. They're all doing it by the book. Well,
thank you so much for sharing all that, man.
I appreciate your perspective. We don't usually
get into current events on this podcast, but
I think you're right that all that really does
relate very deeply to this movie and the subjects.
I mean, funny that Willy Wonka, like how far
we came from that, but like it's all very connected.
It is all very connected. It is all very connected.
It's a big conversation that continues to go
on and on. Yeah, yeah. And I think ultimately,
The tie -in is, like we said earlier, it's the
banality of evil. I mean, fucking... And it's
so foundational to how the world works, the banality
of evil, that actually you put these two movies
next to each other and they're like... There's
insane resonance and overlap. Because it exists
in capitalism. It exists in Nazism. It exists
in any office environment. Any tower of power.
In every insurance agency, it exists at the TSA.
Yeah, exactly. Especially at the TSA. The totally
banal, dehumanized person who's just like a cog
in a machine, just like processing your information
because that's just what you... to have to do.
Yeah. And it's your job. Totally. Putting you
on a list. Yeah. And we're just getting more
and more into like this globalist surveillance
state shit too, which is part of it, but a whole
nother conversation. Yeah. That also starts in
Israel. Yeah. We tested that shit out in Israel.
Yeah. Or being the canary in the coal mine. Yeah.
Absolutely. Well, you guys have any final thoughts?
Are you feeling good? No, I think it was a really,
it was, really interesting it was really interesting
to compare these two movies it was really like
that was very valuable and just unlocked a lot
yeah i really i really can't believe how many
hitler's connections there were in walker that
i didn't even notice yeah that's just so crazy
dude it's rife with them that's crazy But no,
I think that does it for me. It feels like that
was definitely a really satisfying conversation.
And at the end of the day, it's just like, yeah,
the unescapable conclusion that our structures
of human organization, they are foundationally
based in the banality of evil. And we need to...
reimagine these structures we need we need to
dismantle and and compost these structures or
it's just fucking curtains and like it does feel
existentially imperative um so that to me is
like the hopeful like it to to put some sort
of like hopeful spin on it you know you take
these two movies that couldn't be kind of more
different in terms of their pretensions but they're
actually about like the same like satanic wish
at the heart of our uh death machine And, you
know, that just leaves you with this feeling
that like, this can't be it. Like we need, like
there needs to be other ways. There just needs
to be other ways of doing things, you know? Yeah.
Yeah. Amen, man. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Well, dude,
I can't thank you enough for joining us. It was
really like a blessing that you could. Get involved
on this one. I thought you brought so much to
the table. It was really valuable. Thanks, homies.
So thank you so much for being here and talking
to us about this. Yeah, I really appreciate y
'all. Thank you for giving me the space to talk
about these thorny things that are loaded as
fuck and really hurtful. Yeah, dude, it's a tough
world out there. Yeah, no doubt. But on that
note, would you say that's that, Mattress Man?
okay for season one i'd say that's that you Thank
you.