WEBVTT

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No, no, no, man. Man… We’re only halfway there. I’ll see you at the beginning, friend. I’m willing to die too. I want to make movies out of

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blood— the origin— sperm, and tears. and purpose are still a total mystery. I do believe it went out. I got- I got- I got to talking to much I clean forgot about… uh. Dude, that doesn't make

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any sense. What? I’ll dance a jig, I swear to Christ. White

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lines in the middle of the road. As long as the bar’s

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Philadelphia. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything

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but the little fishies. Welcome to Everything

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But the Little Fishies. Welcome. We're here today

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to talk about Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory

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from 1971 and Schindler's List from 1993. And

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joining us today is our longtime friend and amazing

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artist and troubadour, Heavy Meadow. Hey, gang.

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Good to be here. Yeah, yeah. Really good to have

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you, man. I'm so stoked. He's a wandering bard

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and a lover of the earth. And today he's our...

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Wandering Jew. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a wandering

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Jew. You're our Jewish consultant. Consultant

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on Jewish affairs. Because we're getting into

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the Holocaust and chocolate factories. Exactly.

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Exactly. Yep. So, yeah, I guess we're going to

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start with Wonka. Is that the plan? Yeah, yeah.

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Chronological baby. All right. Start with Wonka.

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And also, you know, maybe better to start with

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the sweet before we get into the... Less sweet.

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Yeah. More intense. I mean, you know, it's actually,

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it's interesting. I watched them in that order

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as well. I watched Wonka and then I watched Schindler's

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List. And just coming to your spot today. and

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seeing on the TV just a little bit of that Wonka

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footage of like what the factory, the aesthetic

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of the factory looked like, I actually found

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myself wishing I'd watched Wonka second. Okay.

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Because, you know, Schindler's List like conditions

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a sort of like sensitivity to what like the deepest

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horrors of this like imperial system entail,

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but they're like these aesthetic notes of it

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that radiate out in every direction. totally

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and especially that front gate and like but like

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yeah the front gate i'm just like but anyway

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we'll get into that when we do but that was like

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weird i was like shit i should have watched wonka

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second but anyway hey man they're odd movies

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to pair and i think i think before we get into

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um to get into the nitty -gritty of why we would

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pair them let's just you know get into wonka

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on its own terms um heavy like How long has it

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been since you've seen Willy Wonka? Like, was

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it the last time when you were a kid? Yeah. How

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did this revisit feel? I remember seeing Wonka,

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I believe, once. Or maybe more than once. But,

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like, one time in particular, I was in Nova Scotia

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with my family on a trip. And the place we were

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staying had a copy of Willy Wonka. And I remember

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watching it then. And I was probably 10 years

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old. I thought it was, you know, I had really

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fond memories of it, in part because Gene Wilder

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was definitely a pretty big presence for me growing

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up. We had a copy of Young Frankenstein that

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I watched a bunch of times. Nice, nice. And so,

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yeah, so I always had these fond memories of

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that movie. And of course, there are some genuinely

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iconic melodies and songs from that that have

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really thrived in the public. uh, uh, memory

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and imagination. Um, and, uh, and I have to say,

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seeing it this time around, I was like, I was

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blown away. It is so weird. It's so weird. It's

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so fucking weird. I mean, there's, there's so

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much to say about it, but it's, it's, it's a

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total masterpiece and it's for one, it's extremely

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weird. And two, it is extremely bleak. Yeah,

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it's the darkest fucking movie. It's like, yeah,

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it keeps you up at night, bleak. I mean, it's

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like almost bleaker than Schindler's List. At

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least the motivations of the central character

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are as, you know, ambiguous. Just weird. Dude,

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so I recently did... Charlie and the Chocolate

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Factory, the book again and whatnot. And, like,

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just comparing that book to the movie, I really

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think, like, a lot of that weirdness, like, completely

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comes from Gene Wilder. Like, I think, like,

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the book is weird in certain ways or whatever,

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but, like, the way that Gene Wilder does his

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Gene Wilder thing in that movie, like, completely

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changes, like, how that story, like, comes off.

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There's, like, other changes to the actual text

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and whatnot, but, like... I was listening to

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it on audiobook, and it was being read by Eric

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Idle. And he was reading the poem on the ferry.

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When they're on the ferry and they go down and

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they're like, what is the poem? There is no earthly

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way of knowing. Exactly. Where exactly we are

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going, blah, blah, blah. That crazy thing that

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gets insane by the end of it. It's the exact

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same words in the book. And hearing Eric Idle

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sort of reading it was just kind of like, Oh,

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this is kind of like a cute, weird, funny, like,

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it's kind of scary, but it's mostly, like, whimsical

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and funny. When Gene Wilder does it, it really

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feels like a scene out of, like, Henry Portrait

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of a Serial Killer or something, where he's just,

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like, really bearing his true self to his victim

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before he fucking kills him. Like, this is actually

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insane. Like, it's totally scary, and he's scaring

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the shit out of Mark Purpose. That is totally

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insane, yeah. And it's the same text. It's just,

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like, it's Gene Wilder turning, I mean, and maybe

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the director, too. It's a scary, it's... The

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way it's shot is scary and everything, but it's

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really something that only Gene Wilder could

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do is screaming those lines and having it, like,

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still kind of play like this is a kid's movie,

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but, like, it really feels like a serial killer

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movie to me, like, especially on rewatch. Like,

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Gene Wilder's character is, I mean, so one of

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the big, you know, stories they tell about Gene

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Wilder's casting on this movie was that he had

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his one stipulation was, like, the way that he

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introduced the character or something. His thing

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was that he would come out and hobble and whatever

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and then fall and do this cartwheel. Somersault.

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Somersault. And after that point, nobody would

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ever be able to trust this character again. He's

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like, that's how I want to introduce this so

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that there's always this distrust of this character.

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And I think that that distrust of the character

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thing, though... There's some of that in the

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book and whatever, like the movie really, that's

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like the main focus of the movie. And like, I

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feel like that's kind of an idea that's attributed

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to Gene Wilder now. And through that story and

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stuff. I would also say that I reread the book

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as well. And I would definitely say that Willy

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Wonka's character in the book is a far more sincere

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character. He's very jolly and fun. And he's,

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yeah, he's portrayed as a whimsical guy. And

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the differences are not just in Gene Wilder's

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performances, but also just in the script or

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whatever. Yeah, yeah. To get into a little bit

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of it, Roald Dahl is credited for writing the

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screenplay, but he didn't actually finish it.

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And a lot of it was rewritten by a guy named

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David Seltzer. Okay. David Seltzer is the one

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who put in all of those... In the movie, he's

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always referencing Shakespeare and stuff. He

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says a bunch of Shakespeare. He says all these

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old proverbs and things like that. None of that's

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in the book. That was all stuff added by David

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Seltzer. Interesting. The classical music reference

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on the piano. I forget who it was. The classical

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music on the piano is Mozart, but Miss TV accidentally

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thinks it's... Rachmaninoff. He very arrogantly

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says it's Rachmaninoff, but it's Mozart. That

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was so funny. Yeah, Rachmaninoff. Rachmaninoff.

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That was so funny. Yeah, yeah, but there's tons

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of shit like that in the movie. Yes. That does

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happen in Shameless, too. It absolutely does

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happen in Shameless. Yeah, I know. And they think

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it's Mozart. No, they think it's Mozart, but

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it's Bach. They think it's Mozart. Is this Bach?

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Is this Bach? He's like, it's Mozart. It's not

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Mozart. It's Bach. Yeah, wild. So that happens

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in both movies. Yeah, it's really weird. Yeah,

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so strange. But to get back to what I was saying,

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the other biggest difference in the script is

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the entire Slugworth plot. In the book, Willy

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Wonka doesn't hire this guy to pretend he's Slugworth

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to try to trick these kids into selling out his

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secrets. Right. There's no big test or anything

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in the end. That's all added by David Seltzer.

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And that and the contract at the beginning, the

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paperwork. Yeah, the contract at the beginning,

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and also the entire scene where Charlie and Joe

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steal fizzy lifting drinks. So basically, the

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book actually has no conflict, actually. And,

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like, Charlie is, like, a perfect, banal character

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who never makes a single mistake. Right. And

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it's a morality tale about just, like, how these

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kids don't deserve anything because they're greedy

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and rude. Right. I mean, that's really how the

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book plays, like, is, like, this is just an old

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guy who hates fucking children, and he just wrote

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a fantasy about, like... punishing these kids

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for yeah like it's a guy who went to too many

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movie theaters and found gum under his seat and

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was just like fuck this I fucking hate those

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fucking gum chewers it's such a specific thing

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to hate is gum chewing but it's like a huge part

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of the book is explaining why gum chewing is

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disgusting it's just like an old crotchety guy

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like talking about his problems with the world

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and this next new generation and stuff and like

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Wonka's kind of a like fantasy fulfillment for

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him yeah um So if I may just sort of like fulfill

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my role here and put on my JFAM analysis lens,

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looking at the sort of like almost grim like

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fairy tale of Willy Wonka as told through Roald

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Dahl, like just it's like a fairy tale of sorts.

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There's not a lot of like complexity and like.

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tension and and paradox and um and like anxiety

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that um that like comes through in the in the

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original text by this like anglo -saxon this

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like beloved uh anglo -saxon children's author

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but then it gets in the hands of someone named

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seltzer and and gene wilder two members of the

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tribe and suddenly it gets in the hands of the

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jews yeah it gets in the hands of the jews exactly

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and and there's just like No way for like a Jew

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not to put some sort of like lens of analysis

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in there and have some sort of broader perspective

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that kind of sees through the. the farce of this,

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like, child's fairy tale and actually sees so

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much, like, depravity in, like, candy culture,

00:11:40.429 --> 00:11:45.269
basically. Totally. Totally. And can't help—

00:11:45.269 --> 00:11:47.629
Well, it's capitalism, right? Capitalism. Candy

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culture, i .e. capitalism. Wonka's like a Randian

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hero, dude. He's like a master of capitalism.

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A hundred percent. Genius, you know what I mean?

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Yeah, a hundred percent. And it's so funny because—

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Just as an aside, Roald Dahl did not like the

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Jews. I know, yeah. He goes on record as saying,

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now this is hilarious, but he goes on record

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as saying, you have to admit, there's something

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inherently detestable about the Jews. I mean,

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even a stinker like Hitler didn't pick on them

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for no reason. That's like verbatim. That's very

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funny. A stinker like Hitler didn't pick on them

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for no reason. And so it's just this like, you

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know, this sort of like poetic irony, justice,

00:12:40.899 --> 00:12:45.759
revenge, you might say, that really kind of like

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the most culturally iconic expression of. that

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work of Roald Dahl's. I mean, the book still

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stands on its own, but this, especially with

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like the music and like Gene Wilder as like the

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OG Wonka and, and some greats have tried to step

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into those shoes and have failed miserably. Um,

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and, um, and so it like, it sort of stands as

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like a Jewish work. I know dude, it totally is.

00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:18.019
It is a Jewish work. source material in that

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way. Yeah, and it's against the anti -Semitic

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creator. It's an antagonistic relationship with

00:13:24.500 --> 00:13:29.220
the source creator, which was Hitler's entire

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issue, was that the Jew wouldn't stop interrogating

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culture. And it was just like... Just asking

00:13:37.850 --> 00:13:40.009
way too many questions. It's hard to rewrite

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history. Yeah, yeah. Just didn't want these fucking

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questions. And, like, the books that were all

00:13:45.049 --> 00:13:47.470
burned in those early days were, like, a lot

00:13:47.470 --> 00:13:49.389
of them were, like, these books around, like,

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you know, gender expression by this guy, Magnus

00:13:52.509 --> 00:13:56.789
Hirschfeld, who was this Jewish, this queer Jewish

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intellectual scholar who was writing this, like,

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groundbreaking shit that even today is, like,

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you know, like... played an important role as

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like the intellectual foundation of today, just

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like this and Freud, the same, you know, just

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this interrogation and actually marks the same

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and interrogation of the material conditions.

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Um, and just like the powerful being like, you

00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:21.679
know what? Like we want a myth. We don't want

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these questions. And, um, and so, uh, Roald Dahl

00:14:25.220 --> 00:14:27.419
makes Charlie and the chocolate factory and Hitler

00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:32.340
makes the third rank. And, um, and like, and

00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:35.090
then the Jew like gives their take with, Charlie

00:14:35.090 --> 00:14:37.889
and the Chocolate Factory, and then Schindler's

00:14:37.889 --> 00:14:44.070
List. But I wanted to say, just to sort of counterpoint

00:14:44.070 --> 00:14:46.809
to what you were saying about the thing getting

00:14:46.809 --> 00:14:50.289
weird with Gene Wilder, I found the opening sequence

00:14:50.289 --> 00:14:55.149
before Gene Wilder even appears to be a revelation.

00:14:55.490 --> 00:14:57.470
It's in the first 45 minutes. It's so much of

00:14:57.470 --> 00:14:59.110
the movie. It's a lot of the movie, and it is

00:14:59.110 --> 00:15:04.490
so fucking... It's actually 44 minutes on the

00:15:04.490 --> 00:15:06.610
dot. That's when he shows up. No shit. Wild.

00:15:06.889 --> 00:15:09.090
It's a long time. It's a long time. The movie

00:15:09.090 --> 00:15:11.210
accomplishes a lot in those scenes. The movie's

00:15:11.210 --> 00:15:15.029
already really, really mean at that point. Yeah,

00:15:15.110 --> 00:15:17.830
and deep and has these interesting dynamics,

00:15:18.149 --> 00:15:21.009
class dynamics mostly. Totally. There was something

00:15:21.009 --> 00:15:23.610
that just felt really modern and post -modern

00:15:23.610 --> 00:15:25.350
about the aesthetic when they're introducing

00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:29.429
the different characters and almost like, you

00:15:29.429 --> 00:15:33.059
know, almost like, You know, a character introduction

00:15:33.059 --> 00:15:36.960
montage that I sort of more associate with, like,

00:15:37.059 --> 00:15:39.399
I don't know, the Royal Tenenbaums or some shit.

00:15:39.860 --> 00:15:42.080
Yeah, dude. You know what I'm saying? It's so

00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:45.299
wonderfully made. It's so well made. I mean...

00:15:45.299 --> 00:15:47.740
The storytelling was... The entire movie is,

00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:49.980
but the first 44 minutes before Wonka shows up,

00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:53.350
it's, yeah, it's like a masterclass of... it's

00:15:53.350 --> 00:15:56.549
set up and it really is it's like it's already

00:15:56.549 --> 00:15:59.409
setting up like all of the all of the themes

00:15:59.409 --> 00:16:01.669
and stuff that that are then worked out in the

00:16:01.669 --> 00:16:03.809
chocolate factory as well i mean like it's like

00:16:03.809 --> 00:16:05.990
we were talking about you know wanka as a randian

00:16:05.990 --> 00:16:08.149
hero or whatever and like i think the beginning

00:16:08.149 --> 00:16:10.309
of this movie is very much like a libertarian

00:16:10.309 --> 00:16:12.970
sort of view of things where like you've got

00:16:12.970 --> 00:16:15.049
grandpa joe whatever and the whole family like

00:16:15.049 --> 00:16:17.710
sleeping on this bed and whatever just because

00:16:17.710 --> 00:16:20.710
like They're lazy, kind of. As soon as he's got

00:16:20.710 --> 00:16:22.929
a reason to get up, it's like, oh, he can walk

00:16:22.929 --> 00:16:25.289
fine. He's been sitting here for years just because

00:16:25.289 --> 00:16:27.809
he could live off of his grandson and continue

00:16:27.809 --> 00:16:32.870
this lazy life of the... Interesting. It's pretty

00:16:32.870 --> 00:16:36.090
well said now that Grandpa Joe is an evil person.

00:16:36.509 --> 00:16:41.769
That's a common take. Really? To me, I feel like

00:16:41.769 --> 00:16:44.029
there's some part of Grandpa Joe that has to

00:16:44.029 --> 00:16:46.090
do with addiction and alcoholism or something.

00:16:46.700 --> 00:16:49.259
um in the movie there's there's the whole conversation

00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:52.000
about buying his cigarettes and whatever um when

00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:53.980
he's like i don't need the cigarettes or pipe

00:16:53.980 --> 00:16:57.019
tobacco tobacco right he's like no i don't need

00:16:57.019 --> 00:17:00.940
it i don't deserve it and like there's something

00:17:00.940 --> 00:17:04.759
there about like him needing an addictive substance

00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:07.279
while he's also like not contributing and sitting

00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:08.720
in bed and whatever and there's like there's

00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:10.980
some i don't know there's some like and then

00:17:10.980 --> 00:17:13.799
they win the lottery yeah yeah and then they

00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.500
win the lottery Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then like

00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:18.940
that, then it's like, well, you've got this versus

00:17:18.940 --> 00:17:20.720
this other archetype and this other archetype

00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.079
and this other archetype. And like, they are

00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:26.039
just as much kind of cartoons of the poor as

00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.720
like, as Veruca Salt is. Yeah. Yeah. The gluttonous

00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.460
and Veruca Salt is of the wealthy and all the

00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:35.960
greedy. Yeah. No, just gum chewing. That's a

00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:38.680
gum chewing thing could be thought of as like.

00:17:39.539 --> 00:17:41.980
compulsive behavior sort of thing just like any

00:17:41.980 --> 00:17:45.160
sort of repetitive behavior you could say like

00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:48.059
it could even be like promiscuity or whatever

00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:50.720
it could like be that type of archetype for me

00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:55.099
it was like the archetype of just like the relentlessly

00:17:55.099 --> 00:18:00.480
like shallow trendster who like is so obsessed

00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.799
with like her best friend um who she's also like

00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.579
beating in competition she's vindictive she's

00:18:07.579 --> 00:18:10.140
vindictive super vindictive every time violet

00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:13.480
beauregard uh has an opportunity to speak to

00:18:13.480 --> 00:18:15.440
the camera she like dishes it out out of her

00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.720
alleged best friend who you never see but that's

00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.960
just like such a wonderful I beat her gum chewing.

00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:24.279
And then she brings her up like two or three.

00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:30.099
Yeah. It's just like, it's just so fun. And it's

00:18:30.099 --> 00:18:32.839
like, it's, it's smaller than the criticism of

00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:35.700
like Augustus gloops, gluttony or, or, or, or

00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:39.140
like Mike TV's like media addiction. But it's,

00:18:39.140 --> 00:18:41.819
yeah, it's, it's just as misanthropic. I mean,

00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:45.000
the whole thing is just deeply misanthropic.

00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.619
You're right. And I mean, I guess Grandpa Joe

00:18:49.619 --> 00:18:52.180
and Charlie are also misanthropic in the sense

00:18:52.180 --> 00:18:54.240
that they're kind of just like thinking about

00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.160
how they can get their real golden ticket, get

00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:00.619
their way out. I mean, you know, Charlie is like

00:19:00.619 --> 00:19:02.839
the only one of these children who really like

00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:05.940
puts his family before himself. Like he's a selfless

00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:09.000
person who actually like works. Like in the book,

00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:13.339
Charlie's dad is there and his dad works. But

00:19:13.339 --> 00:19:16.339
in the movie, Charlie and his mom both work.

00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:20.079
There is no dad in the movie, right? There's

00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:24.700
no dad in the movie. Interesting. In the book,

00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:26.839
there's a dad and he works at a toothpaste factory.

00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:30.700
He does a really monotonous assembly line job

00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:34.960
where he puts toothpaste caps on. He gets a piddling

00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:39.099
amount of money to support the family. They eat

00:19:39.099 --> 00:19:43.029
bread and cabbage soup. In the movie, charlie's

00:19:43.029 --> 00:19:45.529
mom does like a laundry thing she like you know

00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:48.289
you see her like doing people's laundry so she

00:19:48.289 --> 00:19:51.190
has a job there and then charlie has like a paper

00:19:51.190 --> 00:19:54.509
boy job but like they can barely put bread on

00:19:54.509 --> 00:19:56.509
the table when charlie gets the bread it's like

00:19:56.509 --> 00:19:59.490
oh he's been actually like putting in more effort

00:19:59.490 --> 00:20:01.269
to bring in a little extra money on the side

00:20:01.269 --> 00:20:04.750
and stuff totally yeah yeah yeah i mean charlie

00:20:04.750 --> 00:20:06.970
is charlie is portrayed as definitely being like

00:20:06.970 --> 00:20:10.390
a very good kid in in both the movie and the

00:20:10.390 --> 00:20:12.450
book but in the movie it's like he goes really

00:20:12.450 --> 00:20:15.049
above and beyond and like puts himself first

00:20:15.049 --> 00:20:17.349
yeah and then with the slug word thing in the

00:20:17.349 --> 00:20:21.369
end which which is honestly like i think betrays

00:20:21.369 --> 00:20:24.809
the unreality of charlie and by my mind that

00:20:24.809 --> 00:20:27.369
it's like they were just like super abused by

00:20:27.369 --> 00:20:32.210
this fucking crazed dingbat um willie wonka and

00:20:32.210 --> 00:20:35.339
like this is their like golden ticket no like

00:20:35.339 --> 00:20:38.519
proverbially speaking um the their golden ticket

00:20:38.519 --> 00:20:40.539
to make some money off the situation now that

00:20:40.539 --> 00:20:42.799
they've just like gotten the stiff arm no instead

00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.099
they start with their abuser yeah but but then

00:20:45.099 --> 00:20:47.539
charlie bucket like sides with his abuser uh

00:20:47.539 --> 00:20:51.940
in a way that is kind of um yeah yeah exactly

00:20:51.940 --> 00:20:55.079
it's it's it's it's either not realistic or or

00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.279
or or like like betrays the unreality unreality

00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:01.539
yeah or or if it's or it's just like yeah fascistic

00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:05.720
Like hero worship, basically. Like cult leader

00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:08.579
status. Fucking Willy Wonka is just so powerful

00:21:08.579 --> 00:21:13.019
that Charlie can't bear to betray the very idea

00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:14.880
of him. No, exactly. I think that part of the

00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.240
thing is the movie is going through this process

00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:19.480
where Charlie's kind of being brainwashed by

00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:22.740
this capitalist sort of Randian hero and whatever.

00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.019
And all of the people that Charlie kind of hates,

00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:27.519
you know what I mean? Like all these other kids

00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:29.619
and shit, they're getting all theirs. And then

00:21:29.619 --> 00:21:33.069
he feels like he's... Like, I don't know. There's,

00:21:33.069 --> 00:21:36.309
there's some. Charlie, Charlie gets to be morally

00:21:36.309 --> 00:21:41.849
superior by like having no individuality. Like

00:21:41.849 --> 00:21:45.410
he, he is a banal Eichmann, you know what I mean?

00:21:45.450 --> 00:21:49.490
Who kind of like just as a product of his environment,

00:21:49.609 --> 00:21:51.930
like all those other kids, like even though they're

00:21:51.930 --> 00:21:53.710
brats and you can say whatever you want about

00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:56.869
them morally, they're all individuals. They're

00:21:56.869 --> 00:21:58.809
getting theirs. They know who they are and what

00:21:58.809 --> 00:22:02.380
they like and what they want. They don't let

00:22:02.380 --> 00:22:04.980
their parents talk down to them or run their

00:22:04.980 --> 00:22:07.460
lives. They have all their parents on the end

00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:11.339
of their chains, you know? Yeah. And Charlie

00:22:11.339 --> 00:22:14.140
is just a fucking doormat, dude. Yeah. He's just

00:22:14.140 --> 00:22:17.349
like... And that's why... Like if you're just

00:22:17.349 --> 00:22:19.450
going to jump to the ending, which is fine, we

00:22:19.450 --> 00:22:21.569
can keep going back and forth, but that's why

00:22:21.569 --> 00:22:23.829
I think the ending is like the most sinister

00:22:23.829 --> 00:22:26.990
fucking thing ever. Like when he becomes the

00:22:26.990 --> 00:22:28.670
fatherly figure and he says, it was all a test

00:22:28.670 --> 00:22:31.150
and you won. He takes him into the elevator whenever

00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:32.849
this is the, like the last time I watched this

00:22:32.849 --> 00:22:35.509
movie, like a couple of years ago, this, like

00:22:35.509 --> 00:22:38.390
this part really dawned on me as being like sinister

00:22:38.390 --> 00:22:45.079
and like, and satanic. Where he brings Charlie

00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:47.359
into this thing, and he brings him onto this

00:22:47.359 --> 00:22:50.079
device that most represents freedom out of anything,

00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:52.460
right? He can go anywhere, do anything. Just

00:22:52.460 --> 00:22:54.920
a giant glass elevator in the sky. It's a glass

00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:58.240
box, so it's completely transparent and all this

00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:01.200
stuff. And then proceeds to tell Charlie that

00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.180
he needed to find a child, specifically a child

00:23:04.180 --> 00:23:08.160
who would do everything the way he does it, because

00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:10.240
a grown -up would want to do everything his way,

00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:14.230
not mine. I had to find a loving, honest child

00:23:14.230 --> 00:23:16.250
who I could tell all my precious candy -making

00:23:16.250 --> 00:23:19.170
secrets. And it's just, like, it's this idea

00:23:19.170 --> 00:23:22.150
that, like, capitalism and, like, the gears of

00:23:22.150 --> 00:23:24.529
it, it needs these sort of banal Eichmanns to

00:23:24.529 --> 00:23:27.789
keep the thing moving forward. That, like, it's

00:23:27.789 --> 00:23:31.809
not going to continue if it's, like, run by Veruca

00:23:31.809 --> 00:23:33.930
Salt or something. She's going to do something

00:23:33.930 --> 00:23:36.650
different, you know? She might run it into the

00:23:36.650 --> 00:23:39.380
ground or, like, completely change. the motive

00:23:39.380 --> 00:23:42.400
or whatever, but Charlie's willing to be brainwashed

00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.480
by the cult of Wonka and just go along with it

00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:48.380
and do everything the way Wonka did it, you know,

00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:51.180
because he's just so bewildered by that, like

00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:53.079
extravagance, you know what I mean? He's just

00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.200
like totally seduced by capitalism and like,

00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:59.180
like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And,

00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:02.150
and, and, and what I think. It's just so, like,

00:24:02.210 --> 00:24:05.410
trenchant and, like, touching and poetic and

00:24:05.410 --> 00:24:07.730
subtle about this movie is, like, the image of

00:24:07.730 --> 00:24:10.829
capitalism as candy culture. Totally. That it's

00:24:10.829 --> 00:24:12.769
just, like, it creates, it's this weird thing

00:24:12.769 --> 00:24:14.839
where you're, like. Just kind of where I was

00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:16.799
when I was a kid, it was just like in one ear

00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:18.240
at the other. I'm like, who wouldn't want like

00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:19.599
a lifetime worth of candy? That's the greatest

00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:21.680
thing ever. But then like as an adult who's like

00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:24.259
realizes kind of like how dangerous candy is

00:24:24.259 --> 00:24:26.380
and like how like it can be great, but like you

00:24:26.380 --> 00:24:28.619
definitely don't want too much of it. It's just

00:24:28.619 --> 00:24:30.880
like this, the image of just like infinite candy.

00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:33.059
And then this kid is put in this position of

00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:36.819
like. Yeah, perpetuating this regime of candy

00:24:36.819 --> 00:24:39.500
where people just basically in a country with

00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:42.720
like rampant diabetes and obesity and all and

00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:46.019
on and on. You just need this like little henchman

00:24:46.019 --> 00:24:48.359
who's just like so enamored of the very idea

00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:51.759
of this like sweetness that and the sweet kid

00:24:51.759 --> 00:24:56.039
to carry forth this really devastating regime.

00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:00.279
I mean, like. Yeah, I mean, there's slave labor.

00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:03.779
Oh, one, there's 100 % slave labor with the Oompa

00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:07.119
Loompas. But also, yeah, I mean, just like the

00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:12.880
sugar lobby and how much it's cost the society

00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:17.099
with diabetes and heart disease and just obesity.

00:25:17.259 --> 00:25:20.759
So much shit. And that's such a strange thing

00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:24.200
about this particular moment. Like, how? like

00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:27.599
how concentrated sugar is and how available it

00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.460
is in every conceivable variety. And it just

00:25:30.460 --> 00:25:33.480
proliferates as capitalism like intensifies and,

00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:35.880
and the whole like blood sugar, like the sugar

00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.480
rush is like also a mirror of capitalism that

00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.160
you like, you get on a high and then you crash.

00:25:40.299 --> 00:25:42.480
I mean, it just kind of like it's, it's shaped

00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.859
like capitalism, what it does to your bloodstream

00:25:44.859 --> 00:25:48.579
and, and, and to your system. And so. the resonance

00:25:48.579 --> 00:25:50.960
there with like charlie being so enamored of

00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.220
this thing that like as an adult i'm kind of

00:25:53.220 --> 00:25:56.480
like i think i think it's also it's also that

00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.740
like it's his class as well like you know what

00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:02.140
i mean it's like it's going to be the poor neighborhoods

00:26:02.140 --> 00:26:04.420
that are most hit by just like diabetes and shit

00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:06.099
and whatever and like our modern sort of like

00:26:06.099 --> 00:26:08.720
mcdonald's and candy sort of culture where it's

00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.000
like this is what's cheap this is what's available

00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.690
this is The most calories you can get in like

00:26:12.690 --> 00:26:15.829
one, you know, in for 10 cents is this like chocolate

00:26:15.829 --> 00:26:18.170
bar that Charlie just like he's starving. And

00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:19.990
then he just like shoves two chocolate bars into

00:26:19.990 --> 00:26:21.930
his mouth and stuff. It's just like that's I

00:26:21.930 --> 00:26:23.309
mean, I guess as a kid, it's not going to feel

00:26:23.309 --> 00:26:26.630
bad. But no, that was a sad moment. He wasn't

00:26:26.630 --> 00:26:28.829
relishing it at all. He was like stuffing it

00:26:28.829 --> 00:26:34.259
down. Stuffing it down his gullet. Yeah, it was

00:26:34.259 --> 00:26:37.160
just so deeply, yeah. He was being an Augustus

00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.900
Gloop in that moment, man. 100%, 100%, 100%.

00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:42.759
It's funny what you're saying about the blood,

00:26:42.819 --> 00:26:44.619
the bloodstream, man, because I feel like all

00:26:44.619 --> 00:26:46.519
the chocolate in this movie looks like blood.

00:26:46.539 --> 00:26:48.680
Yes. Like all the liquid chocolate. Oh, my God,

00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:51.119
yeah. And then in Schindler's List, all the blood

00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:52.880
looks like chocolate because it's black and white,

00:26:52.900 --> 00:26:55.490
and that's another, like. I'm not even lying.

00:26:55.710 --> 00:27:00.730
100%. Yeah, I was like, this makes it more bearable

00:27:00.730 --> 00:27:02.369
because it looks like it makes... Well, there's

00:27:02.369 --> 00:27:06.230
also a little child who jumps into a vat of chocolate.

00:27:07.109 --> 00:27:10.049
Right. Oh, my God, yeah. Both of them. Yeah,

00:27:10.089 --> 00:27:11.910
and then there's the fucking talk of the incinerator.

00:27:12.389 --> 00:27:14.250
Like, oh, the incinerator's only on half the

00:27:14.250 --> 00:27:17.509
days, so maybe they'll get lucky. Dude, it's

00:27:17.509 --> 00:27:21.769
crazy. In the book, they account for all of these

00:27:21.769 --> 00:27:25.750
kids in the end. Don't worry, they didn't die.

00:27:25.930 --> 00:27:28.430
But they're all fucking totally mutilated and

00:27:28.430 --> 00:27:32.039
shit. yeah yeah yeah um what's her name violet

00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.579
is like purple forever um my tv is stretched

00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:38.559
out yeah stretched out but like he's like six

00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:41.259
like eight feet tall or something yeah like two

00:27:41.259 --> 00:27:44.440
inches thin it's just like really kind of horrifying

00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:50.920
yeah yeah End of midsummer or something. Or the

00:27:50.920 --> 00:27:53.480
end of a lifelong struggle with diabetes where

00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:58.400
you get a leg removed. Totally. Or you turn purple.

00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:02.900
But I really like the changes the movie makes

00:28:02.900 --> 00:28:05.900
where you're actually not sure if they make it

00:28:05.900 --> 00:28:10.819
out alive at all. It's very foreboding. I don't

00:28:10.819 --> 00:28:13.079
think we're going to get out of here alive. And

00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:16.009
they sign a contract that actually signs like

00:28:16.009 --> 00:28:18.349
you know they don't know what they sign away

00:28:18.349 --> 00:28:21.569
but the idea that a contract is the central even

00:28:21.569 --> 00:28:24.230
in the first line of the contract it says that

00:28:24.230 --> 00:28:27.490
he's not responsible for death right right yeah

00:28:27.490 --> 00:28:29.349
and that makes like everything that he does in

00:28:29.349 --> 00:28:31.910
there legal because there's paperwork and so

00:28:31.910 --> 00:28:34.130
he can kill as many of these people as he wants

00:28:34.130 --> 00:28:36.289
to in order to continue his regime and stuff

00:28:36.289 --> 00:28:40.670
it's banal it's banal AF but I think the introduction

00:28:40.670 --> 00:28:44.680
of that the paperwork thing is like it makes

00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:46.819
everything else feel much more sinister because

00:28:46.819 --> 00:28:48.359
like in the book there's none of that so it's

00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:49.880
like okay we kind of know that he's not just

00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:51.960
killing people but this one's like no dude this

00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:53.700
is the richest most powerful person in the world

00:28:53.700 --> 00:28:55.980
who's taking you into like a secret place that

00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:58.819
nobody else has ever seen and he's not letting

00:28:58.819 --> 00:29:02.839
you out He's not letting you out. That was the

00:29:02.839 --> 00:29:04.420
whole plan all along. He's not giving away his

00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:08.720
secrets. The first thing he does is get you to

00:29:08.720 --> 00:29:10.299
sign away your life, and then he's like, oh,

00:29:10.299 --> 00:29:12.579
this is fun. Now I get to do exactly whatever

00:29:12.579 --> 00:29:14.880
the fuck I want to these people and find maybe

00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:17.079
one that's banal enough to just continue being

00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:20.640
me for another generation. But it's horrifying,

00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.400
dude. It's really horrifying, specifically because

00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:25.160
of the contract. And I think that's another one

00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:27.099
that really connects with Schindler's List, obviously,

00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.400
is the paperwork. the ability of that sort of

00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.859
yeah totally realization of horrors well and

00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:36.839
just the entire and the entire final solution

00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:39.599
thing which is to weed out all the things that

00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:41.839
are different to continue your bloodline or whatever

00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.460
oh totally but but but but specifically i mean

00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:47.259
the choice that that that spielberg made uh from

00:29:47.259 --> 00:29:50.779
changing it to uh from schindler's arc to schindler's

00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:54.059
list the idea of these bureaucratic like these

00:29:54.059 --> 00:29:58.079
these reams of paper being the thing that really

00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:02.259
is responsible for the transubstantiation of

00:30:02.259 --> 00:30:05.079
human life into, like, bureaucratic statistic,

00:30:05.539 --> 00:30:11.940
you know? That, like, this is the essence of

00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:15.140
this alchemical change where it's no longer about

00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:17.700
relations and the vibrational field of being.

00:30:17.779 --> 00:30:20.900
Now it's about some, like, abstraction and a

00:30:20.900 --> 00:30:23.579
contract or, like, a list of names where at the

00:30:23.579 --> 00:30:25.930
end of the day, like, they're just... squiggles

00:30:25.930 --> 00:30:28.410
on a piece of paper and that's what they've been

00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:31.009
reduced to and i think that that is definitely

00:30:31.009 --> 00:30:34.910
um yeah that's a totally like powerful moment.

00:30:35.029 --> 00:30:37.630
And it allows people to dispassionately take

00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:39.329
out those orders. Right. You know what I mean?

00:30:39.369 --> 00:30:40.990
And be like, it doesn't matter. I mean, there's

00:30:40.990 --> 00:30:42.289
the seat. Like, it doesn't matter to me. It's

00:30:42.289 --> 00:30:43.990
just another one on a list. Like, whatever. Right.

00:30:44.049 --> 00:30:46.170
That was not a German accent. That was a Jewish

00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:49.809
accent. It was supposed to be a German accent.

00:30:50.269 --> 00:30:54.609
So Schindler's List was not a title change that

00:30:54.609 --> 00:31:00.099
Spielberg made. Oh. That happened because of

00:31:00.099 --> 00:31:02.519
the publication. It was a British book, and I

00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:03.980
think when they released it in the States, they

00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:06.119
changed it to Schindler's List because Ark had

00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:10.500
a religious connotation to it. Oh, got it. Okay,

00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:13.880
thank you for that. But that coincidentally works

00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:16.460
very well with the changes that Spielberg made

00:31:16.460 --> 00:31:18.740
in his movie compared to the book and everything.

00:31:19.099 --> 00:31:22.150
Did you all out of curiosity read the book? I

00:31:22.150 --> 00:31:24.029
ordered it and it came a couple of days ago.

00:31:24.089 --> 00:31:25.910
So I was only able to read like a quarter of

00:31:25.910 --> 00:31:28.349
it. And then I did some more reading on some

00:31:28.349 --> 00:31:32.410
of the differences. So I can't claim expertise

00:31:32.410 --> 00:31:37.089
on all the differences, but like in my short

00:31:37.089 --> 00:31:40.410
read on it, I could see a lot of things, but

00:31:40.410 --> 00:31:41.950
let's not get into all that. We won't get into

00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:45.089
that right now. Let's try to stay on the chocolate

00:31:45.089 --> 00:31:47.509
factory. I mean, we started to get into all the

00:31:47.509 --> 00:31:50.319
Nazi connections and I think that was like, That's

00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:54.059
really fun that I have tons of notes on weird

00:31:54.059 --> 00:31:57.359
connections, but it's that you saw all this in

00:31:57.359 --> 00:31:58.880
the movie and it's already kind of been brought

00:31:58.880 --> 00:32:01.819
up without really pressing the issue. It's hilarious

00:32:01.819 --> 00:32:05.579
because I think when you present people with

00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:07.920
the idea that Willy Wonka is a sinister movie

00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:11.099
or has anything to do with some of the darkest

00:32:11.099 --> 00:32:14.539
topics in humanity, they would put up an eyebrow,

00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:16.180
right? It's just kind of like, what are you talking

00:32:16.180 --> 00:32:18.420
about? What do you mean it has Nazi connections

00:32:18.420 --> 00:32:21.970
and shit like that? But this whole thing of talking

00:32:21.970 --> 00:32:25.809
about its origin as a work by an anti -Semite

00:32:25.809 --> 00:32:28.750
that was taken over by a bunch of Jews and how

00:32:28.750 --> 00:32:32.990
they, consciously or not, injected a ton of their

00:32:32.990 --> 00:32:35.730
shit into it that really speaks, even if they

00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:38.089
were trying to just make a whimsical family movie,

00:32:38.690 --> 00:32:41.490
really right out of the gate. One of the things

00:32:41.490 --> 00:32:44.390
I noticed about the way this movie starts is

00:32:44.390 --> 00:32:46.849
that the opening sequence is a realistic depiction

00:32:46.849 --> 00:32:50.099
of a soulless, mechanical... chocolate manufacturing

00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:53.299
line. You know what I mean? It's like, it's nothing

00:32:53.299 --> 00:32:55.720
like the factory you see in the movie. No, exactly.

00:32:56.180 --> 00:32:57.900
You know what I mean? It's reality. Like right,

00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:00.559
right, right out of the gates. It's, it's like

00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:03.000
showing you that this movie is a fantasy and

00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:04.579
this chocolate factory is a fantasy. And this

00:33:04.579 --> 00:33:07.039
is all this like wool that's being pulled over

00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:09.000
your eyes. But the reality is this thing that's

00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:11.759
like fascist. It's like a mechanical assembly

00:33:11.759 --> 00:33:14.859
line that just like, that like takes a bunch

00:33:14.859 --> 00:33:20.269
of beautiful individual. and crushes it down

00:33:20.269 --> 00:33:23.269
and pulverizes it into this like mixes it with

00:33:23.269 --> 00:33:25.789
sugar and dairy to be packaged in all the same

00:33:25.789 --> 00:33:28.470
kind of like wrappers to be consumed by people.

00:33:28.549 --> 00:33:32.829
You know what I mean? That's the reality. Yeah.

00:33:33.009 --> 00:33:35.309
And then the very first scene of the movie is

00:33:35.309 --> 00:33:37.190
all these children running out of school and

00:33:37.190 --> 00:33:39.230
going straight to the candy shop. And there's

00:33:39.230 --> 00:33:41.890
a billboard behind the candy shop that says,

00:33:41.950 --> 00:33:45.490
now you have a choice. But the only thing that

00:33:45.490 --> 00:33:48.789
it says on the candy shop is Wonka and Slugworth.

00:33:48.930 --> 00:33:51.769
And then inside there's a Fickle Gruber's shelf.

00:33:52.069 --> 00:33:55.210
Right. There's only like three choices in the

00:33:55.210 --> 00:34:00.549
shop. I'm so glad. Sorry, Tony. Just really quick.

00:34:00.609 --> 00:34:03.069
I'm so glad you brought that up. Fickle Gruber.

00:34:03.569 --> 00:34:07.990
So do you know what Schickle Gruber is? No. Schickle

00:34:07.990 --> 00:34:13.260
Gruber is Adolf Hitler's family name. What? This

00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:16.059
is no lie. They changed their name from Schicklgruber

00:34:16.059 --> 00:34:19.340
to Hitler. And in the first scene of the movie,

00:34:19.460 --> 00:34:21.900
there's this Ficklgruber. And I was watching

00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:25.800
it. I was like, what the fuck? Yep, yep. That's

00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:27.719
crazy. I don't know. That's crazy. Yeah, dude,

00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:29.360
yeah. And then do you know what Bill does, the

00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:31.940
candy man, immediately? I mean, already on the

00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:33.900
surface, his relationship with these children

00:34:33.900 --> 00:34:36.280
is super fucking weird. Yeah. He doesn't make

00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:38.510
them pay. Yeah, he doesn't make them pay, but

00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:40.469
that's all part of a fantastical music number,

00:34:40.670 --> 00:34:42.210
and you could say... Well, kind of, but then

00:34:42.210 --> 00:34:45.050
Charlie, the one who can't pay, is the one who

00:34:45.050 --> 00:34:48.150
has to pay. Totally. No, no, no, I know, that's

00:34:48.150 --> 00:34:50.329
definitely there. He's just like, he's throwing,

00:34:50.630 --> 00:34:52.769
he's showering them with candy. He's not making

00:34:52.769 --> 00:34:54.949
them pay at all. It's like they all have tabs,

00:34:54.969 --> 00:34:56.809
and they're all good for it or something. Yeah,

00:34:56.829 --> 00:34:58.849
yeah, their credit's good. But you know what

00:34:58.849 --> 00:35:01.530
he says to them, though? The first thing he says,

00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:05.389
he pushes a functionalist theory that social

00:35:05.389 --> 00:35:07.840
stratification is... natural and good basically

00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:10.679
like he says Wonka was born to be a candy worker

00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:14.179
and you guys were born to be Wonkerers and then

00:35:14.179 --> 00:35:17.679
he sings a song about how like the candy man

00:35:17.679 --> 00:35:19.139
can do whatever the fuck he wants because he

00:35:19.139 --> 00:35:23.159
does it with love and thinks the world the world

00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:24.639
is the way it is because he thinks it should

00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:27.579
be that way and then really ominous chords end

00:35:27.579 --> 00:35:29.920
the song it ends on like a really weird like

00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:36.670
doo it's like really creepy it's like I don't

00:35:36.670 --> 00:35:38.369
know, man. Yeah. Like, the whole entire beginning

00:35:38.369 --> 00:35:41.230
just, like, starts on this foot. It's very much

00:35:41.230 --> 00:35:43.269
there. Oh. And, you know, and then, like, his

00:35:43.269 --> 00:35:47.309
teacher, Turkentine, is, like, also condescendingly

00:35:47.309 --> 00:35:50.269
asserting the social hierarchy. He's like, I'm

00:35:50.269 --> 00:35:52.409
the teacher, and you're the student. And, like...

00:35:52.730 --> 00:35:54.369
you know, the student can't teach the teacher,

00:35:54.429 --> 00:35:56.130
that would be presumptuous or whatever. Right,

00:35:56.130 --> 00:35:57.989
right. It's crazy, man. Absolutely, absolutely.

00:35:58.250 --> 00:36:00.369
And at the end of the day, and then you have,

00:36:00.429 --> 00:36:03.369
like, Charlie Bucket, who is just, like, hopelessly,

00:36:03.369 --> 00:36:06.110
like, wrapped up in this machinery without having

00:36:06.110 --> 00:36:09.590
any idea of why he just is constantly getting

00:36:09.590 --> 00:36:11.510
the short end of the stick, and, like, life is

00:36:11.510 --> 00:36:13.170
just, like, so rough for him, but he's just,

00:36:13.230 --> 00:36:15.630
like, such a sweet kid, and he's just so... clearly

00:36:15.630 --> 00:36:18.170
just like, you know, a victim of this miserable

00:36:18.170 --> 00:36:22.969
system. And then like the only way out is like

00:36:22.969 --> 00:36:26.110
him just believing super, super hard that for

00:36:26.110 --> 00:36:28.929
some reason he's not just going to be like all

00:36:28.929 --> 00:36:32.400
the rest of the impoverished. trash in the city

00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:33.920
that's just gonna get swept away in capitalism

00:36:33.920 --> 00:36:38.039
for some reason he is gonna get that golden ticket

00:36:38.039 --> 00:36:40.920
and it's just kind of like this yeah it's yeah

00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:42.960
but it's just kind of this inversion of like

00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:46.280
the hero's journey where it's like you know this

00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:51.880
this like whether it's neo or or or harry potter

00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:53.900
or fucking luke skywalker you get this like somewhat

00:36:53.900 --> 00:36:56.750
like generic just like i don't really know but

00:36:56.750 --> 00:36:59.550
like gets chosen for like this like glorious

00:36:59.550 --> 00:37:04.429
journey um because ultimately like that is that's

00:37:04.429 --> 00:37:06.909
the the model that might inspire all of us to

00:37:06.909 --> 00:37:09.250
like live into our best potential right but in

00:37:09.250 --> 00:37:12.369
this context there's something it's it's so not

00:37:12.369 --> 00:37:16.929
like romantic it's so like it's just so like

00:37:16.929 --> 00:37:21.000
miserable and depressing like the only way out

00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.420
of just like unimaginable internet and like intergenerational

00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:28.199
grinding poverty is to like get this random ticket

00:37:28.199 --> 00:37:31.320
so that you can just like get in on the action

00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:33.900
and like maybe have the chance of taking over

00:37:33.900 --> 00:37:36.340
the factory yourself and then just like yeah

00:37:36.340 --> 00:37:38.900
perpetuate this like like you know structural

00:37:38.900 --> 00:37:43.679
violence on poor people um and uh like like that's

00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.880
like yeah so it's it's hard to imagine for me

00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:50.719
there wasn't like intentionality in this critique

00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:54.500
because it's so biting yeah it definitely dude

00:37:54.500 --> 00:37:56.840
it's like it's like Vonnegut satire dude it's

00:37:56.840 --> 00:38:01.019
crazy yeah yeah it really is it really is and

00:38:01.019 --> 00:38:06.059
um yeah it's so and then just to to to go to

00:38:06.059 --> 00:38:10.840
the end again that one of the images That really

00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:14.139
stuck out at me was when walk is like having

00:38:14.139 --> 00:38:17.260
his breakdown And you're in his office and like

00:38:17.260 --> 00:38:19.400
it's decorated by all these like split faces

00:38:19.400 --> 00:38:22.639
These have everything and it's just like the

00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:26.230
bipolarity of this man. Yeah the bipolarity of

00:38:26.230 --> 00:38:29.630
capitalism. And just like, this is a, like, this

00:38:29.630 --> 00:38:33.469
is a sick and crazed person who, um, is like,

00:38:33.489 --> 00:38:36.050
is just like so inherently unstable that like,

00:38:36.070 --> 00:38:38.309
that you just, you don't know what the fuck to

00:38:38.309 --> 00:38:41.230
make of him. And it's the very same of this system

00:38:41.230 --> 00:38:45.750
that like, when you actually like, you pull back

00:38:45.750 --> 00:38:48.650
the curtain and see like, who is Oz in there.

00:38:48.769 --> 00:38:51.309
It's just this like miserable dude, like, like,

00:38:51.309 --> 00:38:53.949
like hunched over his desk, surrounded by this,

00:38:54.010 --> 00:38:57.329
like, Really... fucked -up artwork that just,

00:38:57.409 --> 00:39:00.250
like, speaks to a totally fractured and broken

00:39:00.250 --> 00:39:02.550
spirit. Exactly, exactly. And it's just like,

00:39:02.650 --> 00:39:06.550
whoa! This is who's behind the curtain. This

00:39:06.550 --> 00:39:08.289
is who's behind the curtain, and it's just, yeah,

00:39:08.409 --> 00:39:11.989
this is Oz, and it's, yeah, it's miserable. It's

00:39:11.989 --> 00:39:14.050
miserable. And that's the most bipolar he ever

00:39:14.050 --> 00:39:15.929
is in the movie, because you see him at his most,

00:39:15.969 --> 00:39:17.889
like, terrifying, and then you see him at his

00:39:17.889 --> 00:39:20.929
most, like, warm. Right, exactly, exactly. And

00:39:20.929 --> 00:39:24.110
then everything is redeemed in the end when Charlie

00:39:24.110 --> 00:39:26.530
expresses, like, like, total and complete and

00:39:26.530 --> 00:39:29.369
utter fealty, then this, like, parasitic man

00:39:29.369 --> 00:39:33.130
can finally feel safe enough to, like, open himself

00:39:33.130 --> 00:39:36.530
up because he knows that he, like, will never

00:39:36.530 --> 00:39:39.190
have to surrender his ego. His, like, ego can

00:39:39.190 --> 00:39:43.329
live intergenerationally through his, like, new

00:39:43.329 --> 00:39:47.730
son who doesn't have a father. But now his father

00:39:47.730 --> 00:39:51.929
is the war. But the war is that of consumer capitalism

00:39:51.929 --> 00:39:53.769
where you're just... constantly trying to sell

00:39:53.769 --> 00:39:56.510
as many candy bars as you can. And, um, and,

00:39:56.590 --> 00:40:01.269
and the funny thing is that like, um, the tie

00:40:01.269 --> 00:40:06.409
-ins with actual capitalism, like Wonka bars

00:40:06.409 --> 00:40:09.750
as a commodity that I don't know if there's,

00:40:09.750 --> 00:40:12.090
are they still, they're still around? At least

00:40:12.090 --> 00:40:13.849
they were five years ago or something. Right.

00:40:13.929 --> 00:40:16.130
It's just like, makes it that much more like

00:40:16.130 --> 00:40:19.510
multidimensional a work when it's like reaching

00:40:19.510 --> 00:40:22.230
out of the screen and being like, yeah, the,

00:40:22.570 --> 00:40:26.929
The critique is in your bloodstream if you eat

00:40:26.929 --> 00:40:29.150
this fucking candy bar having spent your own

00:40:29.150 --> 00:40:33.170
money on it. Well, this movie was actually meant

00:40:33.170 --> 00:40:38.190
to be a tie -in with the Wonka Bar. Oh, pre -existed

00:40:38.190 --> 00:40:40.670
the movie. It was from the book. Yeah, yeah,

00:40:40.690 --> 00:40:43.210
yeah. Okay. Wait, what? The book was supposed

00:40:43.210 --> 00:40:46.469
to be a tie -in? I don't know if the Wonka Bar

00:40:46.469 --> 00:40:49.369
was made before this movie or directly during

00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:52.610
and after. Movie. But, like, the Quaker Oats

00:40:52.610 --> 00:40:56.150
company was looking for a project in which they

00:40:56.150 --> 00:40:58.469
could do a candy tie -in. Okay. Interesting.

00:40:58.789 --> 00:41:01.710
And they were in talks with the producer, David

00:41:01.710 --> 00:41:04.369
L. Wolper, over doing this. And then this movie,

00:41:04.469 --> 00:41:08.130
like, independently came on the table. because

00:41:08.130 --> 00:41:10.150
of the director, Mel Stewart and stuff, but then

00:41:10.150 --> 00:41:12.210
it just kind of all tied together. And what's

00:41:12.210 --> 00:41:13.769
funny is that the movie doesn't actually feel

00:41:13.769 --> 00:41:17.230
like a product placement movie ever, but like

00:41:17.230 --> 00:41:19.829
the walk, a candy bar was a candy bar that was

00:41:19.829 --> 00:41:23.769
released by Quaker Oats. So it was a candy tie

00:41:23.769 --> 00:41:26.710
in. Do Quaker Oats invested finance the film

00:41:26.710 --> 00:41:29.829
with $3 million? Yeah, there you go. That's crazy.

00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.519
that's crazy because that is just like yeah that

00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.280
is really like attacking the parent companies

00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:38.199
you know what i mean right i mean make a movie

00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:40.960
about how evil quaker oats is basically a hundred

00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:43.840
percent a hundred percent and and and and yeah

00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:47.380
being more than a movie as you actually can then

00:41:47.380 --> 00:41:49.780
find the freaking product on the shelf and like

00:41:49.780 --> 00:41:51.920
poison yourself with it and you've been like

00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.360
conditioned into this like cult of wonka because

00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:56.760
you saw the movie and gene wilder is such a great

00:41:56.760 --> 00:41:59.179
movie star, and you're like, yes, must have Wonka

00:41:59.179 --> 00:42:05.159
Barr. Totally, totally. Just so we can start

00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:07.460
reeling in the scope again, let's go back to

00:42:07.460 --> 00:42:09.719
The Office. I thought this would be a good point

00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:12.800
to bring up Joe again, Grandpa Joe. A lot's already

00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:15.659
been said about how Wonka and Joe are both like

00:42:15.659 --> 00:42:18.480
Charlie's father figures in the movie. And I

00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.800
think it's weird that Gene Wilder as Willy Wonka

00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:23.360
has been sort of retrospectively considered a

00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:26.079
father figure. just because of that one last

00:42:26.079 --> 00:42:27.880
scene of the movie where he's warm towards him.

00:42:28.019 --> 00:42:30.739
Right. That's the way he's always talked about,

00:42:30.940 --> 00:42:33.400
like, his performance was more of, like, a fatherly

00:42:33.400 --> 00:42:35.679
figure kind of performance. Yeah. But that you

00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:38.340
have these two father figures, Joe and Charlie,

00:42:38.539 --> 00:42:41.659
and that, like, Joe... Joe and Willy Wonka. Yeah,

00:42:41.880 --> 00:42:45.510
yeah, Joe and Willy Wonka. Joe is actually speaking

00:42:45.510 --> 00:42:47.389
for Charlie a lot more than Charlie speaks for

00:42:47.389 --> 00:42:49.590
himself. Joe is kind of like directing all of

00:42:49.590 --> 00:42:52.969
Charlie's actions. He's the one who's like egging

00:42:52.969 --> 00:42:54.869
Charlie on to keep buying more chocolate bars

00:42:54.869 --> 00:42:56.590
and to keep trying to win the ticket or whatever.

00:42:57.250 --> 00:43:00.809
Earlier in the movie, Charlie's mom even says

00:43:00.809 --> 00:43:02.590
to Joe, like, you're giving him false hope and

00:43:02.590 --> 00:43:06.369
shit, you know? And then at the end of the movie...

00:43:06.539 --> 00:43:09.760
This is what Joe accuses Wonka of doing. He says,

00:43:09.860 --> 00:43:11.860
how could you do something like this? Build up

00:43:11.860 --> 00:43:13.940
a little boy's hopes and smash them into pieces.

00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:18.820
Right. And it's like Joe and Wonka seem to have

00:43:18.820 --> 00:43:21.320
a dichotomy, like they're more similar and they're

00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:23.159
different, or like they're the same but at different

00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:26.800
ends of the spectrum or whatever. Totally. Yeah,

00:43:26.820 --> 00:43:30.320
I don't know. But Joe is also the one who encourages

00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:32.679
Charlie to steal the fizzy lifting drink, so

00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:36.800
he's always kind of like, a satanic presence

00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.659
in charlie's life like he's he's like a bad conscience

00:43:39.659 --> 00:43:43.380
the whole time you know what i mean no totally

00:43:43.380 --> 00:43:45.159
i think i think that for me the fizzy lifting

00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:46.880
drinks thing is interesting because like i was

00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:48.920
saying earlier i think there's a certain alcoholism

00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:51.800
um to grandpa joe i think he's lying in bed all

00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:53.860
day because he just likes drinking and so it

00:43:53.860 --> 00:43:58.400
is like pipe tobacco and you know Then as soon

00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:00.659
as there's fizzy lifting drinks, he's like, that's

00:44:00.659 --> 00:44:03.079
my shit. I like fizzy lifting. I've been drinking

00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.579
fizzy lifting drinks every night. Let's go get

00:44:05.579 --> 00:44:08.159
some fizzy lifting drinks. Oh, yeah, I love it.

00:44:08.260 --> 00:44:10.039
Not break the rules, even though I've seen like

00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:12.059
six other people get killed through this. Well,

00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:14.780
and then it's not Joe who asks Wonka about it.

00:44:14.860 --> 00:44:19.340
It's Mr. Salt, but Mr. Salt points out the alcohol

00:44:19.340 --> 00:44:23.300
in the inventing rooms. It was like, what is

00:44:23.300 --> 00:44:25.860
it? Is it like butterscotch and butter rum or

00:44:25.860 --> 00:44:28.469
something like that? Yeah, yeah. And he's like,

00:44:28.610 --> 00:44:32.010
candy is dandy, but liquor is quicker. Yep. Like

00:44:32.010 --> 00:44:34.329
that's not a line from the book. No, no. They're

00:44:34.329 --> 00:44:37.309
equating all of these industries that are, you

00:44:37.309 --> 00:44:39.369
know. Based on addiction, basically. Essentially

00:44:39.369 --> 00:44:41.590
based on addiction. Yeah. Yeah. That's really

00:44:41.590 --> 00:44:43.409
interesting. I love that image of like the fizzy

00:44:43.409 --> 00:44:46.309
lifting drink as like, that sounds like a beer.

00:44:47.929 --> 00:44:50.489
Lifts my spirits and it's fizzy. Well, Grandpa

00:44:50.489 --> 00:44:52.969
Joe also says, look how high we are, Charlie.

00:44:53.110 --> 00:44:56.110
Yeah. That's so interesting. That's so interesting.

00:44:56.210 --> 00:44:58.230
Yeah. And, and, and just like the image of, yeah,

00:44:58.269 --> 00:45:00.809
just like the deadbeat dad who just like plays

00:45:00.809 --> 00:45:05.730
around all day. Um, yeah, I mean, it's so, it's

00:45:05.730 --> 00:45:09.130
such an interesting thing because in the book,

00:45:09.210 --> 00:45:11.449
it's been a long time since I've read the book,

00:45:11.469 --> 00:45:13.469
but I do remember it reasonably well, or at least

00:45:13.469 --> 00:45:16.329
the feel of it. Um, and the book, yeah, it does

00:45:16.329 --> 00:45:19.829
just feel like a more just like whimsical sort

00:45:19.829 --> 00:45:25.920
of fable style, uh, archetype or cartoonish like

00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:28.059
oh he's got a rough life and all four parents

00:45:28.059 --> 00:45:30.199
like all four grandparents sleep in one bed right

00:45:30.199 --> 00:45:33.400
right yeah yeah but then when you actually play

00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:36.599
it out then it like in like becomes very weird

00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:39.699
it becomes very weird and very yeah just like

00:45:39.699 --> 00:45:42.860
it necessitates asking these sorts of questions

00:45:42.860 --> 00:45:48.599
um around like yeah just yeah poverty and intergenerational

00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:53.090
trauma and um And I feel like at the end of the

00:45:53.090 --> 00:45:57.190
day, it's, you know, it's hard to imagine this

00:45:57.190 --> 00:45:59.909
movie, whether, like, I don't really think Charlie

00:45:59.909 --> 00:46:02.179
and the Chocolate Factory is a critique. I don't

00:46:02.179 --> 00:46:04.340
really think it, I could be wrong. The book?

00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:06.679
The book. Yeah, I agree. I think it's like a

00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:09.119
fairy tale. I think it's a bit of a fantasy that

00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:11.179
this guy is writing. It's like, I fucking hate

00:46:11.179 --> 00:46:13.480
all these kids. I just want, yeah, I want like

00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:15.820
a sweet, yeah, I want like a sweet, nice kid

00:46:15.820 --> 00:46:18.500
who's just like docile and obedient and full

00:46:18.500 --> 00:46:20.619
of wonder and imagination. And I'm going to give

00:46:20.619 --> 00:46:22.800
that kid all the candy he could ever want. And

00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:24.679
all those like bitchy kids who always get their

00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:27.320
way, like they're going to die or be like mutilated

00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:31.119
in some way. They'll all get theirs in the end.

00:46:31.150 --> 00:46:34.809
This is my fantasy reality and I get to choose.

00:46:35.250 --> 00:46:38.550
Yeah, but then when you actually build it out

00:46:38.550 --> 00:46:41.090
and you're trying to build the world to film

00:46:41.090 --> 00:46:44.849
it, then yeah, you just... I don't know. I feel

00:46:44.849 --> 00:46:47.230
like you can't help but deal with these questions

00:46:47.230 --> 00:46:50.809
of like, yeah, what is poverty? Like, what does

00:46:50.809 --> 00:46:53.010
it actually look like to see this like adorable

00:46:53.010 --> 00:46:55.809
blonde kid who's like so poor? Like, and then

00:46:55.809 --> 00:46:58.369
these like rich kids who are such assholes. And

00:46:58.369 --> 00:47:00.329
that's just like also another message of the

00:47:00.329 --> 00:47:02.710
movie is just that like, like he's surrounded,

00:47:02.730 --> 00:47:05.760
Charlie's surrounded by so much like. swine.

00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:07.480
Like, like these, like these, these privileged

00:47:07.480 --> 00:47:10.380
kids are such pieces of shit. They're just awful.

00:47:10.659 --> 00:47:12.960
And he's like the only good one and he's poor.

00:47:13.139 --> 00:47:15.960
And it's just like, how is that not some sort

00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:18.920
of, you know, critique of capitalism? Absolutely.

00:47:19.119 --> 00:47:22.739
A hundred percent. Like it has to be. The one

00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:25.159
that I, we haven't gotten to yet was Mike TV.

00:47:25.260 --> 00:47:27.260
Right. That I think is like a really interesting

00:47:27.260 --> 00:47:30.739
kind of archetype specifically in this era. Yeah.

00:47:31.619 --> 00:47:37.409
It's 70, what, one? 71. Yeah. So like, I, I really

00:47:37.409 --> 00:47:42.710
think of Mike TV as sort of this, um, um, he's

00:47:42.710 --> 00:47:44.409
like a techno utopian. Like, you know what I

00:47:44.409 --> 00:47:46.289
mean? He's like the TV generation, but like,

00:47:46.309 --> 00:47:48.809
he's the type of kid that like believes in this

00:47:48.809 --> 00:47:53.090
wonder of technology stuff. Um, and is sort of

00:47:53.090 --> 00:47:55.650
bewildered all day by the super stimulus and

00:47:55.650 --> 00:47:58.590
kept in this sort of, I don't know, of its time,

00:47:58.690 --> 00:48:01.760
sort of. fantasy world where he's not living

00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:03.639
in the real world and in the book he's even more

00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:06.400
like he really wants to do violence and stuff

00:48:07.170 --> 00:48:09.170
I mean, that's another big thing. He doesn't

00:48:09.170 --> 00:48:10.510
understand the difference between reality and

00:48:10.510 --> 00:48:12.090
TV. Right. I mean, that's another thing with

00:48:12.090 --> 00:48:14.110
Mike TV that's so striking is that he's, like,

00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:16.150
constantly, like, fake shooting people. Yeah,

00:48:16.190 --> 00:48:18.769
yeah, yeah. He's actually, like, on the one hand.

00:48:18.969 --> 00:48:21.329
He wants a gun. Yeah, yeah. He wants a gun. He's,

00:48:21.389 --> 00:48:23.090
like, this weird. Yeah, exactly. He wants a gun.

00:48:23.150 --> 00:48:25.829
He's this weird combination of this techno utopian.

00:48:25.889 --> 00:48:28.469
He's, like, so ready to be, like, turned into,

00:48:28.730 --> 00:48:31.710
like, the bits being moved through the sky. The

00:48:31.710 --> 00:48:34.110
consequences would be damned. But also, this

00:48:34.110 --> 00:48:35.550
kind of. You know what I mean? It's just like.

00:48:36.329 --> 00:48:38.230
I'm the first to do this. I'm the first to do

00:48:38.230 --> 00:48:40.269
that. I put my name on a plaque and it's like,

00:48:40.309 --> 00:48:42.030
yeah, you're just fucking tiny. But also this,

00:48:42.050 --> 00:48:44.250
yeah, but this also this strange conditioned

00:48:44.250 --> 00:48:49.750
archetype, this sort of forced. cultural memory

00:48:49.750 --> 00:48:53.250
of, like, the badass cowboy who's got a gun who,

00:48:53.329 --> 00:48:54.949
like, is basically, like, why do they have guns?

00:48:55.030 --> 00:48:56.650
They have guns mostly to shoot indigenous people.

00:48:56.789 --> 00:48:59.630
Like, that's what was going on. And so he's,

00:48:59.650 --> 00:49:01.449
like, this kind of historical throwback, this

00:49:01.449 --> 00:49:04.289
memory through TV has turned him into this, like,

00:49:04.329 --> 00:49:07.309
you know, this violent cowboy figure. And it's

00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:09.809
just, like, it's just a very beautiful, it's

00:49:09.809 --> 00:49:12.329
just, like, a very potent image of how just deeply

00:49:12.329 --> 00:49:16.289
confused kids are with, like, TV culture, American

00:49:16.289 --> 00:49:20.980
culture, like, just a culture of violence and

00:49:20.980 --> 00:49:25.860
techno -utopia. And it's that kind of desensitization

00:49:25.860 --> 00:49:28.480
of violence that, I mean, if you think about

00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:31.579
this is another thing that feels like Nazi adjacent

00:49:31.579 --> 00:49:35.739
or whatever. 100%. The idea that if you can desensitize

00:49:35.739 --> 00:49:39.440
the youth to violence, they could be led to doing...

00:49:39.710 --> 00:49:41.289
They can be psyched about doing it. As they get

00:49:41.289 --> 00:49:43.630
older. Yeah, I mean, they can be psyched about

00:49:43.630 --> 00:49:47.250
it. You might be raising an Amon Go. That's exactly

00:49:47.250 --> 00:49:48.570
what I was thinking. I was just thinking Amon

00:49:48.570 --> 00:49:51.489
Go up there on the balcony just shooting Jews

00:49:51.489 --> 00:49:54.409
because it's target practice. Just like, you

00:49:54.409 --> 00:49:57.389
know, the person that Mike TV is channeling,

00:49:57.389 --> 00:50:01.170
some cowboy shooting indigenous out west because

00:50:01.170 --> 00:50:05.170
it's target practice. Exactly. And the TV reporter

00:50:05.170 --> 00:50:08.210
says to him, you like the killings, huh? And

00:50:08.210 --> 00:50:09.989
he says, what do you think life is about? What

00:50:09.989 --> 00:50:12.769
do you think life is about? Yeah. Yeah. Wild.

00:50:12.929 --> 00:50:15.869
That's a little school shooter. Yeah. He's also

00:50:15.869 --> 00:50:19.050
like, he also plays as like almost autistic or

00:50:19.050 --> 00:50:20.510
whatever. You know what I mean? Like he doesn't

00:50:20.510 --> 00:50:24.820
really have any real. connection to reality yeah

00:50:24.820 --> 00:50:27.099
at all in any scene he's completely i mean he's

00:50:27.099 --> 00:50:29.280
fragmented he's totally fragmented and then he

00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:31.840
turns into tv particles in the in the end he's

00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:35.519
just like he's he's just a yeah and then he just

00:50:35.519 --> 00:50:38.300
it truly is just dissolved by the machine and

00:50:38.300 --> 00:50:40.760
is when he's reconstituted he's made like so

00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:44.070
much smaller so like just like hideously small

00:50:44.070 --> 00:50:48.670
and he's not actually upset about it no he's

00:50:48.670 --> 00:50:50.869
not because he doesn't he doesn't have so disconnected

00:50:50.869 --> 00:50:53.909
from reality yeah he's like an astronaut you

00:50:53.909 --> 00:50:56.690
know he got there he did it he's first there's

00:50:56.690 --> 00:50:58.570
gonna be a plaque somewhere yeah it doesn't matter

00:50:58.570 --> 00:51:00.650
that he's dying in a tin can somewhere right

00:51:00.650 --> 00:51:03.969
he's he's the man of the future he's great right

00:51:03.969 --> 00:51:06.369
right 100 like just totally willing to sacrifice

00:51:06.369 --> 00:51:10.409
himself for these, like... The most banal thing

00:51:10.409 --> 00:51:11.989
in the world. The most banal thing in the world.

00:51:11.989 --> 00:51:13.309
I'm the first one to be transported. Like, yeah.

00:51:13.349 --> 00:51:15.570
Jesus Christ. The most banal thing in the world.

00:51:15.610 --> 00:51:18.530
Can we just acknowledge, though, that Willy Wonka

00:51:18.530 --> 00:51:22.070
invented teleportation? Yeah, it's pretty...

00:51:22.070 --> 00:51:24.250
That's intense. Yeah. In his chocolate factory.

00:51:24.550 --> 00:51:26.610
Totally. In the book, he invented, like, the

00:51:26.610 --> 00:51:28.969
cure to world hunger and all sorts of other stuff.

00:51:29.150 --> 00:51:32.190
Well, I just... Yeah, the Everlasting Gobstopper

00:51:32.190 --> 00:51:35.630
is a really, like, weird thing that sort of contradicts...

00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:38.119
everything else that's satanic about him because

00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:42.900
he wants to create a candy that, like, never

00:51:42.900 --> 00:51:44.960
goes bad. So you never have to buy another one.

00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:48.119
Yeah, it's like, how would that be good for profit

00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:49.739
or the bottom line? Yeah, it's anti -capitalist.

00:51:49.739 --> 00:51:51.079
It is anti -capitalist. It's like, it's for the

00:51:51.079 --> 00:51:53.539
children without any pocket money. Right, right.

00:51:54.260 --> 00:51:57.139
One image that just came to mind, this idea of

00:51:57.139 --> 00:52:00.300
Willy Wonka, like, creating tele... teleportation

00:52:00.300 --> 00:52:02.800
in the service of like just moving like basically

00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:06.219
like poison candy like like around the the country

00:52:06.219 --> 00:52:08.980
um seamlessly what it brought to mind was uh

00:52:08.980 --> 00:52:12.400
some time i spent in the sticks in uh south africa

00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:15.219
where uh in this village called bulangula which

00:52:15.219 --> 00:52:18.619
is like so many miles down a dirt road in a really

00:52:18.619 --> 00:52:21.880
like like uh like just a really raw a really

00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:29.159
rural community they still have where the this

00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:33.179
like incredibly remote removed community there

00:52:33.179 --> 00:52:35.579
is coca -cola there there are signs for coca

00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:37.880
-cola that this like that this actually like

00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:41.059
one of the most remarkable achievements of human

00:52:41.059 --> 00:52:45.550
um of like human organizing has been like Coca

00:52:45.550 --> 00:52:48.909
-Cola's drive to move high fructose corn syrup

00:52:48.909 --> 00:52:52.809
around the world to reach every single tendril.

00:52:52.909 --> 00:52:54.869
And it is this kind of like miraculous thing.

00:52:55.010 --> 00:52:56.989
It's too bad that they're selling poison water.

00:52:57.170 --> 00:52:58.730
It would be amazing if they were like, you know,

00:52:58.750 --> 00:53:00.750
distributing like good clean water or something

00:53:00.750 --> 00:53:03.190
like that. But that's not what they're doing.

00:53:03.329 --> 00:53:05.210
It's like it's all built for the sake of like

00:53:05.210 --> 00:53:08.090
moving poison around the world and like this

00:53:08.090 --> 00:53:10.170
addictive poison. And it's the same thing with

00:53:10.170 --> 00:53:12.829
fucking Willy Wonka, like inventing teleportation,

00:53:12.829 --> 00:53:17.420
this total revelation. for the sake of just candy.

00:53:17.780 --> 00:53:20.400
Yeah, and keeping it to himself, too. I'm not

00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:22.039
going to give this to the world. I'm going to

00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:24.960
transport candy to everybody's TV sets and keep

00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:29.280
this in my secret factory where nobody ever comes

00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.900
out. Right, right, right. But also, maybe the

00:53:32.900 --> 00:53:35.420
everlasting gobstopper is just a fantasy, and

00:53:35.420 --> 00:53:38.079
that's the point, and so is the teleporter, that

00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:40.739
nothing in this factory is actually going to

00:53:40.739 --> 00:53:44.550
get shipped out for mass consumption. none of

00:53:44.550 --> 00:53:46.329
that shit in the end his own sick oligarchic

00:53:46.329 --> 00:53:49.070
playground where he's just like like basically

00:53:49.070 --> 00:53:51.630
yeah exactly just most dangerous game shit he's

00:53:51.630 --> 00:53:54.309
just like basically soft he's jigsaw he's fucking

00:53:54.309 --> 00:53:56.570
exactly what it is it's jigsaw he's killing all

00:53:56.570 --> 00:53:59.239
these different people in a way that is specific

00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:02.179
to why they i mean it's like seven yeah exactly

00:54:02.179 --> 00:54:04.159
it's like seven killer and seven where he's like

00:54:04.159 --> 00:54:07.519
got the gluten the rape guy and stuff like you

00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:08.739
know what i mean all these different people are

00:54:08.739 --> 00:54:12.539
being punished for their sins and he is the god

00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:16.440
of this in which he can punish all of the people

00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:19.599
that he hates. Yeah. And that's very Hitler.

00:54:20.420 --> 00:54:24.380
Totally is. Very fucking Hitler. But going back

00:54:24.380 --> 00:54:26.400
a second, like you were saying, I like this,

00:54:26.519 --> 00:54:29.320
that the everlasting gobstopper is like an anti

00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:33.300
-capitalist sort of idea because it is what's

00:54:33.300 --> 00:54:36.980
used as the temptation. The bargaining chip.

00:54:37.059 --> 00:54:39.139
The bargaining chip. So it's almost like Willy

00:54:39.139 --> 00:54:41.800
Wonka's being like... do you want socialism here?

00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:44.320
Yeah. It was like, no, this guy gives back socialism

00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:47.039
because he's so enamored of me. Then like, yeah,

00:54:47.139 --> 00:54:48.800
good. Right. You know what I mean? It's like,

00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:51.320
you're giving up socialism for capitalism in

00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:53.360
this trend. Yeah. Or you're giving up socialism

00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:56.420
for like cult of personality, which, which is

00:54:56.420 --> 00:54:58.960
like, let's, let's be real. That's exactly what

00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:01.380
happened in Germany in the 1930s. Like it was

00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:04.099
the most, it was like, like the, the, the left

00:55:04.099 --> 00:55:07.699
in Germany was ascendant. And the reason why

00:55:07.699 --> 00:55:11.219
Hitler, ultimately prevailed was because all

00:55:11.219 --> 00:55:12.860
the forces of reaction were like, well, if we

00:55:12.860 --> 00:55:14.980
don't throw in with Hitler, like the, the, the

00:55:14.980 --> 00:55:16.760
left is either the socialists are going to win.

00:55:16.980 --> 00:55:19.559
Um, and, um, and so that was kind of like, that

00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:21.500
was kind of the choice. You would get like the

00:55:21.500 --> 00:55:23.679
everlasting gobstopper, like a world of like

00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:27.559
plenty or, uh, or you like worship this, like,

00:55:27.699 --> 00:55:30.340
you know, this charismatic, uh, this charismatic,

00:55:30.420 --> 00:55:33.960
mystical. Visionary. Charismatic, but not nice

00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:37.099
or fatherly or anything. No, but not nice. Just

00:55:37.099 --> 00:55:39.360
like a crazy, insane charismatic little wonka

00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:41.320
or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:41.440 --> 00:55:45.420
Yeah, crazy. Yeah. It just goes to show, I mean,

00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:50.599
the strange resonance between these films to

00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:53.800
me really genuinely just speaks to the banality

00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:56.380
of evil. That there's something just like, that

00:55:56.380 --> 00:55:58.940
there's something totally banal about the evil

00:55:58.940 --> 00:56:01.829
that is at the... core to all of these structures

00:56:01.829 --> 00:56:04.130
these common structures whether it's the state

00:56:04.130 --> 00:56:05.889
these top -down bureaucracies of violence and

00:56:05.889 --> 00:56:08.289
control whether it's the state or it's a corporation

00:56:08.289 --> 00:56:11.570
it's just like the fact is and i do think that

00:56:11.570 --> 00:56:13.289
this was hannah arendt of course hannah arendt's

00:56:13.289 --> 00:56:15.710
takeaway um from eichmann in jerusalem as well

00:56:15.710 --> 00:56:19.409
um is that is that like dude like eichmann was

00:56:19.409 --> 00:56:22.250
not some fucking evil guy he would these are

00:56:22.250 --> 00:56:26.199
evil structures that cultivate pathological and

00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:29.420
evil behavior but like they're actually it's

00:56:29.420 --> 00:56:32.239
the evilness that emerges out of these structures

00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:35.159
and it's just the fucking and like that's what's

00:56:35.159 --> 00:56:36.800
so fascinating about seeing these two movies

00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:39.099
side by side where really like the common theme

00:56:39.099 --> 00:56:42.519
is kind of just industrialism basically just

00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:45.059
like like the industrial era under some sort

00:56:45.059 --> 00:56:47.300
of like microscope under some sort of like uh

00:56:47.300 --> 00:56:50.679
like you know some sort of analysis and at the

00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:54.380
end of the day there's the same sick fantasy

00:56:54.380 --> 00:56:57.860
murder control fantasy that is at the heart of

00:56:57.860 --> 00:57:00.980
fucking the industrial structure, the industrial

00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:04.059
system or, yeah, or, or just, or yeah, that,

00:57:04.139 --> 00:57:06.900
that autocratic power structure that has characterized

00:57:06.900 --> 00:57:10.139
the corporate industrial age. Totally. The idea

00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:13.900
that those are so compatible that like Nazism

00:57:13.900 --> 00:57:17.920
is so compatible with capitalism or. with this

00:57:17.920 --> 00:57:21.239
idea of industrial, like, Randian libertarian

00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:23.940
capitalism sort of thing, that, like, the critique

00:57:23.940 --> 00:57:26.019
of one is kind of the critique of the other,

00:57:26.139 --> 00:57:28.500
that, like, Willy Wonka absolutely can be seen

00:57:28.500 --> 00:57:30.659
as a Hitler character, but he's just as much,

00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:34.099
like, an industrialist. Like, you know what I

00:57:34.099 --> 00:57:38.539
mean? And the criticisms of the dehumanization

00:57:38.539 --> 00:57:42.019
that comes from that, like, is common to, like,

00:57:42.099 --> 00:57:43.780
both. Like, you know what I mean? They have that

00:57:43.780 --> 00:57:47.309
in common. Yeah. Absolutely. Like pairing these

00:57:47.309 --> 00:57:49.050
together makes that like more clear. I mean,

00:57:49.070 --> 00:57:50.849
we'll get into it more, I guess, in Schindler's

00:57:50.849 --> 00:57:53.409
List. But I think that's a lot of what Spielberg

00:57:53.409 --> 00:57:56.170
is doing is where he's discussing. And this is

00:57:56.170 --> 00:57:58.210
what Hannah Arendt gets into, too. Yeah. Where

00:57:58.210 --> 00:58:00.409
he's just talking about Nazis, but she's also

00:58:00.409 --> 00:58:02.449
talking about, you know, the people who worked

00:58:02.449 --> 00:58:07.150
at IBM or like. Right. Or like, you know, the

00:58:07.150 --> 00:58:09.750
people like, you know, who were involved in the

00:58:09.750 --> 00:58:11.730
State Department during the Second Iraq War,

00:58:11.769 --> 00:58:14.309
which killed a million civilians. Or like. People

00:58:14.309 --> 00:58:16.929
who are involved in some other conflict that

00:58:16.929 --> 00:58:18.769
might be happening on planet Earth right now

00:58:18.769 --> 00:58:21.449
that is killing unfathomable numbers of people

00:58:21.449 --> 00:58:24.469
in this kind of banal business as usual way.

00:58:26.289 --> 00:58:31.030
But also the complicity, like how Charlie is

00:58:31.030 --> 00:58:33.849
completely complicit in the system and kind of

00:58:33.849 --> 00:58:36.550
just goes along with it. And that's kind of what

00:58:36.550 --> 00:58:38.829
the Jewish leadership did during the Holocaust

00:58:38.829 --> 00:58:42.019
as well. They thought kind of going along with

00:58:42.019 --> 00:58:44.519
it and helping to facilitate it would like end

00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:48.239
up saving them. Saving those ones. Saving those

00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:52.059
ones. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. But like I think

00:58:52.059 --> 00:58:55.500
that like really is the core of it that you said.

00:58:55.659 --> 00:59:00.050
And I have like. like a bunch more connections

00:59:00.050 --> 00:59:03.289
i could list out that would be really fun um

00:59:03.289 --> 00:59:06.050
when it comes to more of charlie or willie wonka

00:59:06.050 --> 00:59:07.769
and the chocolate factory's nazi connections

00:59:07.769 --> 00:59:09.750
we didn't even talk about the oompa loompas much

00:59:09.750 --> 00:59:11.989
i mean that's like a pretty no yeah exactly we

00:59:11.989 --> 00:59:13.429
didn't talk about the oompa loompas which are

00:59:13.429 --> 00:59:16.610
which are both like which are the oompa loompas

00:59:16.610 --> 00:59:20.849
are both a um like i think they really do work

00:59:20.849 --> 00:59:24.969
as like a metaphor for a concentration camp a

00:59:24.969 --> 00:59:27.750
forced labor camp and all that kind of stuff.

00:59:27.869 --> 00:59:31.829
And even, what did you call them? I can't recall.

00:59:32.030 --> 00:59:34.449
The Jhumpa Loompas you're talking about? Yeah,

00:59:34.489 --> 00:59:39.809
the Jhumpa Loompas. Oh my God. The dark skinned,

00:59:39.809 --> 00:59:42.989
curly haired dudes. Yeah, they've got curly hair,

00:59:43.150 --> 00:59:44.789
and they're like darker skinned, and they've

00:59:44.789 --> 00:59:49.710
got big noses. Weird. But Willy Wonka talks about

00:59:49.710 --> 00:59:52.349
how he found them in Loompa Land, but like basically

00:59:52.349 --> 00:59:54.829
the way he's describing it, he could be describing

00:59:54.829 --> 00:59:58.309
like Africa, or South America or any kind of

00:59:58.309 --> 01:00:00.670
jungle environment that quote -unquote savages

01:00:00.670 --> 01:00:02.530
live in. Yeah, he's kind of just talking about

01:00:02.530 --> 01:00:04.769
the slave trade. He's just kind of talking about

01:00:04.769 --> 01:00:06.269
the transatlantic slave trade. Yeah, the stuff

01:00:06.269 --> 01:00:07.849
everywhere that would kill them and whatever.

01:00:07.989 --> 01:00:11.519
And I'm actually doing them a service by... Bringing

01:00:11.519 --> 01:00:13.260
them here. And he says, like, I brought them

01:00:13.260 --> 01:00:18.219
here in the greatest secrecy. So it's like, I

01:00:18.219 --> 01:00:21.199
kept it real secret. I brought these people here.

01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:22.559
It's like, they have a better life here. Now

01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:24.239
they're my workers. So, you know, they're not

01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:28.219
as free, but they're more safe. And, like, they

01:00:28.219 --> 01:00:30.539
can work in my chocolate factory, and they can

01:00:30.539 --> 01:00:32.719
like it, too. They're happy in their slavery.

01:00:33.320 --> 01:00:35.980
Yeah, they can be grateful. Work will set them

01:00:35.980 --> 01:00:40.820
free. Yeah, exactly. But it's funny because the

01:00:40.820 --> 01:00:42.519
original version of Charlie and the Chocolate

01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:45.400
Factory, the book, they were black and they revised

01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:50.059
that for like the 1973 edition that came out

01:00:50.059 --> 01:00:54.059
after the movie. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Wow. That is

01:00:54.059 --> 01:01:00.579
problematic. Yep. Well, I mean, I feel like...

01:01:02.090 --> 01:01:03.949
I don't know, man. Think about those Oompa Loompas

01:01:03.949 --> 01:01:05.929
songs just being sung by just a bunch of black

01:01:05.929 --> 01:01:09.190
people instead. That would be very funny. No,

01:01:09.210 --> 01:01:12.389
it would be funny, but it would be weird. That's

01:01:12.389 --> 01:01:16.730
the height of minstrelsy. Yeah, weird. Super

01:01:16.730 --> 01:01:20.329
weird. I mean, I kind of feel like... They are

01:01:20.329 --> 01:01:22.750
all weird orange -faced dudes. Yeah, it's bizarre.

01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:27.940
Yeah, I feel like maybe, you know, if we wanted

01:01:27.940 --> 01:01:31.559
to, we can use the Oompa Loompas like as the

01:01:31.559 --> 01:01:35.320
kind of direct transitional. point between, because

01:01:35.320 --> 01:01:39.840
that's between Wonka and Schindler's List. Okay.

01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:42.019
Just because, I mean, just as a thought. Before

01:01:42.019 --> 01:01:45.099
we do, I would be really remiss to not mention

01:01:45.099 --> 01:01:46.820
some more of these details in the movie, just

01:01:46.820 --> 01:01:50.559
so it really continues to solidify the legitimacy

01:01:50.559 --> 01:01:53.599
of this interpretation of the movie. Yeah. But

01:01:53.599 --> 01:01:57.760
one of the big ones is, you know how there's

01:01:57.760 --> 01:02:01.400
the guy Who wins the fifth ticket, but he's a

01:02:01.400 --> 01:02:04.139
fraud. Yeah. His name is Alberto Minileta. In

01:02:04.139 --> 01:02:06.639
the book, he's from Russia. And in the movie,

01:02:06.699 --> 01:02:08.559
he's from Argentina. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's South

01:02:08.559 --> 01:02:10.539
American. Yeah, he's the only non -white. He's

01:02:10.539 --> 01:02:12.059
from South America. He's the only non -white

01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:13.820
person in the movie. The picture they show on

01:02:13.820 --> 01:02:18.880
the TV is a picture of Martin Borman. What? Yeah,

01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:24.340
who is Hitler's personal secretary. What? Mm

01:02:24.340 --> 01:02:27.280
-hmm. So it's kind of like it's kind of an inside

01:02:27.280 --> 01:02:29.800
joke because like Eichmann and a lot of other

01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:32.440
Nazis were like hiding in South America. Oh,

01:02:32.519 --> 01:02:38.210
my God. Or whatever. And at the time when they

01:02:38.210 --> 01:02:39.989
made this movie, Martin Borman hadn't been found

01:02:39.989 --> 01:02:42.130
yet. And they thought like maybe he was in South

01:02:42.130 --> 01:02:43.670
America. So this is kind of just like an inside

01:02:43.670 --> 01:02:45.489
joke that they threw in there. A hundred percent.

01:02:45.710 --> 01:02:48.730
A hundred percent. But a year later, they found

01:02:48.730 --> 01:02:51.809
Martin Borman's body in Germany. He had died

01:02:51.809 --> 01:02:54.090
back in like 45 and they finally exhumed him.

01:02:54.090 --> 01:02:55.670
Was it stuffed full of chocolate or something?

01:02:56.769 --> 01:02:59.710
I don't know. But another really hilarious connection

01:02:59.710 --> 01:03:04.219
is there was a Nazi named Wilhelm Kopp. He was

01:03:04.219 --> 01:03:06.719
one of the most prominent among the higher SS

01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:09.239
leaders. He became the director of a chocolate

01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:12.739
factory in post -war Germany. His name was Wilhelm.

01:03:13.619 --> 01:03:18.280
That's crazy. I like that. That's crazy. That's

01:03:18.280 --> 01:03:20.920
crazy. And then the Fickle Gruber thing. The

01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:23.599
Fickle Gruber thing is so weird. That's insane.

01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:25.679
Yeah, the Fickle Gruber thing is really good.

01:03:25.800 --> 01:03:27.820
Another really good one is, you know the scene...

01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:30.340
I mean, we never really even got into the whole

01:03:30.340 --> 01:03:32.980
like montage of just like all the like global

01:03:32.980 --> 01:03:35.219
insanity that was happening over the Wonka Bar

01:03:35.219 --> 01:03:37.900
competition. Just like how satirically hilarious

01:03:37.900 --> 01:03:40.619
all that was. Like there's the psychiatrist who

01:03:40.619 --> 01:03:42.980
like the Freudian psychiatrist doesn't care about

01:03:42.980 --> 01:03:45.059
the dream until it's about the Wonka Bars. And

01:03:45.059 --> 01:03:47.599
then there's like the and then there's this there's

01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:49.440
like a woman whose husband is kidnapped and she'll

01:03:49.440 --> 01:03:51.239
give them anything until she finds out it's Wonka

01:03:51.239 --> 01:03:54.079
Bars. And then there's this scene where they

01:03:54.079 --> 01:03:58.730
ask a computer. to calculate where the Wonka

01:03:58.730 --> 01:04:02.190
bars are. And it's like a very 2001 moment for

01:04:02.190 --> 01:04:04.130
one. But the other thing that I noticed is the

01:04:04.130 --> 01:04:07.829
computer is made by a German company called...

01:04:09.219 --> 01:04:11.559
Siemens. Siemens, yeah. Siemens, yeah. So they're

01:04:11.559 --> 01:04:14.679
a multinational tech conglomerate, and they're

01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:16.579
the largest industrial manufacturing company

01:04:16.579 --> 01:04:20.079
in Europe. Yeah. But they began in 1847. So I

01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:24.139
wonder what they were doing in 1939. So in World

01:04:24.139 --> 01:04:27.400
War II, they were known for exploiting the forced

01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:30.079
labor of deported people in extermination camps.

01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:33.170
Wow. They owned a plant in Auschwitz. They supplied

01:04:33.170 --> 01:04:35.449
electrical parts to the camps, and the factories

01:04:35.449 --> 01:04:37.469
at the camps were created, run, and supplied

01:04:37.469 --> 01:04:40.210
by the SS in collaboration with high -level officials.

01:04:40.710 --> 01:04:43.949
That's crazy. And that's the kind of thing where

01:04:43.949 --> 01:04:47.230
it's like, that could be a critique, but it's

01:04:47.230 --> 01:04:49.960
probably just the reality that... capitalism

01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:55.619
is Nazism and it just never ended. Well, there's

01:04:55.619 --> 01:04:57.159
the other, there's the other thing that there's

01:04:57.159 --> 01:04:59.940
like, there's also like a Lufthansa poster, which

01:04:59.940 --> 01:05:01.940
is like a German airline that was like the flag

01:05:01.940 --> 01:05:04.440
carrier during Nazi Germany. But like, the other

01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:05.719
thing we have to remember is that this entire

01:05:05.719 --> 01:05:09.019
movie was shot in Munich, Germany. Like in the,

01:05:09.019 --> 01:05:11.840
in the book, it's completely out of time and

01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:13.659
place. Like you don't know where Charlie's from.

01:05:13.739 --> 01:05:15.300
You don't know where any of the kids are from,

01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:18.179
but in the movie, Charlie's town is still out

01:05:18.179 --> 01:05:21.429
of place. But we have Ruka Saltz from England,

01:05:21.929 --> 01:05:24.489
Mike TV and Violet Beauregard are from America,

01:05:24.630 --> 01:05:28.750
and Augustus Gloob is from Germany. And so since

01:05:28.750 --> 01:05:31.489
we know that the movie is shot in Munich, Germany,

01:05:31.570 --> 01:05:33.710
we can kind of assume that Charlie is also in

01:05:33.710 --> 01:05:39.150
Germany. And I mean, you know that Munich just

01:05:39.150 --> 01:05:43.670
is such an important Hitler city. Yeah. It's

01:05:43.670 --> 01:05:46.260
like the OG Hitler city. For sure, man. So it

01:05:46.260 --> 01:05:48.360
all could be coincidence because it's like, well,

01:05:48.380 --> 01:05:52.599
we decided to shoot in Munich, Germany, and all

01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:55.360
these Jews decided to go shoot their movie in

01:05:55.360 --> 01:05:57.099
Munich, Germany because they thought it would

01:05:57.099 --> 01:05:59.579
be whimsical and have a kind of old, out -of

01:05:59.579 --> 01:06:04.610
-time vibe to it. And then because of that, they

01:06:04.610 --> 01:06:06.869
get all this sort of, like, production support

01:06:06.869 --> 01:06:10.230
from German corporations and shit like that because

01:06:10.230 --> 01:06:12.650
they're there. Or that's, like, why you see,

01:06:12.710 --> 01:06:14.929
like, Lufthansa posters because even though they

01:06:14.929 --> 01:06:17.050
were active in World War II, they're still around,

01:06:17.289 --> 01:06:20.510
you know? Yeah. And, like, it could all be a

01:06:20.510 --> 01:06:22.389
coincidence and whatever, but, like, it's all

01:06:22.389 --> 01:06:24.690
stuff that rhymes way too much. I know. And,

01:06:24.769 --> 01:06:28.550
like, I'm sorry, but you cannot be a Jew in 1971.

01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:33.619
in Munich and not think about Hitler there 30

01:06:33.619 --> 01:06:37.340
years before. Like I'm 34. Like that's, that's,

01:06:37.340 --> 01:06:40.760
that's like the very recent past there. And,

01:06:40.860 --> 01:06:44.599
and, and like the ongoing like implications of

01:06:44.599 --> 01:06:47.239
the Holocaust for Jewish life. I mean, obviously

01:06:47.239 --> 01:06:52.280
to this day, but like, especially in 1971. Yeah.

01:06:52.400 --> 01:06:55.019
There's just. There's just kind of no way. And

01:06:55.019 --> 01:06:57.519
even if it's not a super conscious critique,

01:06:57.679 --> 01:07:01.420
which I think that it is, it's like at least

01:07:01.420 --> 01:07:04.679
a sort of like intuitive channeling, like just

01:07:04.679 --> 01:07:07.980
building off of the vibrations that were there

01:07:07.980 --> 01:07:11.199
filming this thing, this this thing in Munich,

01:07:11.260 --> 01:07:14.679
a story by this like anti -Semitic Brit who were

01:07:14.679 --> 01:07:16.519
kind of like, you know, part of the chosen race,

01:07:16.599 --> 01:07:18.780
like Hitler's chosen race. I mean, you know how

01:07:18.780 --> 01:07:21.099
like Hitler didn't go like didn't want to kill

01:07:21.099 --> 01:07:23.110
the English because saw them as this. same race

01:07:23.110 --> 01:07:26.829
um yeah there's just there's just yeah i mean

01:07:26.829 --> 01:07:30.610
fuck there's a lot going on there there's a lot

01:07:30.610 --> 01:07:32.969
going on and yeah at this point unless you guys

01:07:32.969 --> 01:07:35.750
have anything more specific i would agree that

01:07:35.750 --> 01:07:38.329
maybe we should segue over to uh schindler's

01:07:38.329 --> 01:07:40.409
list and we can keep making comparisons and all

01:07:40.409 --> 01:07:42.530
that kind of stuff but yeah to start focusing

01:07:42.530 --> 01:07:44.409
more on that one now yeah sounds good let's uh

01:07:44.409 --> 01:07:46.030
let's take a quick break and then uh get into

01:07:46.030 --> 01:08:16.159
the other factory So we're back. Back from the

01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:19.260
break. Back from the break, yeah. And we were

01:08:19.260 --> 01:08:21.880
just actually, like, in the break before we even

01:08:21.880 --> 01:08:24.380
started recording again. We were just... jump

01:08:24.380 --> 01:08:27.180
back into it ranting about waka ranting about

01:08:27.180 --> 01:08:31.100
waka and and like yeah this randian vision of

01:08:31.100 --> 01:08:34.380
like the like the the great man theory of history

01:08:34.380 --> 01:08:37.760
basically the aspiration being this like sigma

01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:40.939
male who like ascends through your like cunning

01:08:40.939 --> 01:08:44.520
and willpower um to like command the world but

01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:47.560
like in all of those cases the outcome is always

01:08:47.560 --> 01:08:52.300
like incredibly pathological like wonka or like

01:08:52.300 --> 01:08:56.899
adolf hitler right um and and um you're saying

01:08:56.899 --> 01:08:59.640
like like bill gates and you know elon musk and

01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:01.279
whatever all these guys that acquire this amount

01:09:01.279 --> 01:09:05.039
of power to end up just like with no like yeah

01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:06.979
just these weird freaks and these weird yeah

01:09:06.979 --> 01:09:09.220
no no wholesome like gregarious connection to

01:09:09.220 --> 01:09:11.600
the circle of life you know right and and that

01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:14.359
and that like you know in a healed society i

01:09:14.359 --> 01:09:17.060
would imagine our myths are more pointing us

01:09:17.060 --> 01:09:20.470
toward that sort of sense of ecological and community

01:09:20.470 --> 01:09:23.789
interbeing where we just like are just forever

01:09:23.789 --> 01:09:26.350
joined in dance and song as the seasons pass

01:09:26.350 --> 01:09:29.649
as opposed to some end point of history where

01:09:29.649 --> 01:09:31.810
you finally accumulated all the power and then

01:09:31.810 --> 01:09:34.409
you realize like oh my god i never realized how

01:09:34.409 --> 01:09:37.029
desperately lonely a human being could be and

01:09:37.029 --> 01:09:39.409
you just completely like toxify and collapse

01:09:39.409 --> 01:09:46.260
or or in some cases i guess Maybe you have this

01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:50.939
sort of like crazy awakening like like Oscar

01:09:50.939 --> 01:09:55.279
Schindler and then and then become your own.

01:09:55.300 --> 01:09:57.880
But then it becomes its own sort of like like

01:09:57.880 --> 01:10:03.000
pathological need to be to sacrifice yourself

01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:06.529
in service. Like, I don't know, the interesting,

01:10:06.689 --> 01:10:08.609
I feel like Oskar Schindler is actually, like,

01:10:08.609 --> 01:10:11.189
a super interesting counterpoint to this story,

01:10:11.270 --> 01:10:13.590
to this accumulationist story, where it's like

01:10:13.590 --> 01:10:15.289
he actually gets to this point and then, like,

01:10:15.329 --> 01:10:20.810
something does pop. And he suddenly, like, he

01:10:20.810 --> 01:10:24.970
spends himself into poverty by the end of the

01:10:24.970 --> 01:10:30.720
war, saving Jews. Well, I think he does. As soon

01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:32.960
as he knows that his money is not going to be

01:10:32.960 --> 01:10:35.319
worth anything in a couple of years. Yeah. And

01:10:35.319 --> 01:10:36.960
what he really starts doing is finding other

01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:40.560
commodities and taking care of the rest of his

01:10:40.560 --> 01:10:42.760
life where he never had to have a successful

01:10:42.760 --> 01:10:44.520
business again or whatever and was allowed to,

01:10:44.539 --> 01:10:47.100
you know, he's the only Nazi buried in Israel

01:10:47.100 --> 01:10:48.359
and whatever. Actually, it's not true, right?

01:10:48.420 --> 01:10:51.319
There's one other one. Where did they bury Eichmann?

01:10:54.730 --> 01:10:56.510
Yeah, he just threw him into the Mediterranean.

01:10:58.109 --> 01:11:01.989
Yeah, I forget. Okay, so we're jumping in head

01:11:01.989 --> 01:11:03.689
first right now. Oh, man, we so are. Sorry, yeah.

01:11:03.970 --> 01:11:06.989
Take it. Give us some framing. There might not

01:11:06.989 --> 01:11:08.949
be a better place to start than, yeah, just how

01:11:08.949 --> 01:11:11.550
we feel about Schindler and, like, his transformation

01:11:11.550 --> 01:11:15.909
in this movie and how honest it is and, I don't

01:11:15.909 --> 01:11:18.829
know, and how ironic the movie is or not. Because

01:11:18.829 --> 01:11:21.300
this movie... I think like one of the biggest

01:11:21.300 --> 01:11:23.739
complaints Schindler's List gets from haters

01:11:23.739 --> 01:11:26.460
is that it's too sentimental. Yeah, so this was

01:11:26.460 --> 01:11:30.579
my main criticism. Like years ago when I saw

01:11:30.579 --> 01:11:32.579
this movie and I was in my sort of anti -Spielberg

01:11:32.579 --> 01:11:36.520
phase, I referred to it as Mr. Toad's wild ride

01:11:36.520 --> 01:11:38.720
of the Holocaust. Where it's just kind of like

01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:40.779
going from one thing to the next thing and all

01:11:40.779 --> 01:11:44.000
these sort of... I don't know. It's going through

01:11:44.000 --> 01:11:45.960
each of the things to show you the whole Holocaust,

01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:47.960
but it kind of plays like a rollercoaster ride

01:11:47.960 --> 01:11:50.399
or something. I mean, to me, the big scene that

01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:53.880
really stood out was when the women are accidentally

01:11:53.880 --> 01:11:58.279
sent to Auschwitz. Right. And it's a shower and

01:11:58.279 --> 01:12:00.220
not a gas chamber. Exactly. You have the whole

01:12:00.220 --> 01:12:02.220
buildup of this tension, tension, tension. Oh,

01:12:02.239 --> 01:12:03.699
my God, they're being put in the showers. Are

01:12:03.699 --> 01:12:05.750
they going to die? And then it turns out. no

01:12:05.750 --> 01:12:08.609
they're not gonna die they're totally fine everything's

01:12:08.609 --> 01:12:10.289
okay and it feels to me like a scene out of a

01:12:10.289 --> 01:12:12.350
horror movie where it's like the building building

01:12:12.350 --> 01:12:14.310
tension whatever somebody opens a closet and

01:12:14.310 --> 01:12:16.569
a skeleton falls out and it's like just a plastic

01:12:16.569 --> 01:12:18.590
skeleton and they're like oh it's fine like you

01:12:18.590 --> 01:12:21.210
know what i mean yeah that was my sort of criticism

01:12:21.210 --> 01:12:22.689
this movie where it's like that doesn't feel

01:12:22.689 --> 01:12:25.310
classy and like why the fuck would you make a

01:12:25.310 --> 01:12:29.229
holocaust movie that has that type of That moment

01:12:29.229 --> 01:12:31.409
of false suspense, basically. Right, right. It

01:12:31.409 --> 01:12:35.090
felt to me to be cheap or something. But I think

01:12:35.090 --> 01:12:37.649
that this is a movie that totally takes all of

01:12:37.649 --> 01:12:43.609
those filmmaking sort of things. He does. He

01:12:43.609 --> 01:12:47.710
utilizes horror movie aesthetics and cheap B

01:12:47.710 --> 01:12:50.050
-movie things. He does. There are jokes in this

01:12:50.050 --> 01:12:52.720
movie. There's all sorts of, you know. But it's

01:12:52.720 --> 01:12:56.140
all contributing to something. I think it is

01:12:56.140 --> 01:12:58.779
very funny a lot of the time. Maybe not a lot

01:12:58.779 --> 01:13:02.399
of the time, but some of the time. Some of the

01:13:02.399 --> 01:13:03.739
time it's pretty funny. But I think that all

01:13:03.739 --> 01:13:06.420
of these things that I thought of as criticisms,

01:13:06.539 --> 01:13:09.300
I think these all work to point towards a much

01:13:09.300 --> 01:13:11.840
more complicated movie that I think does a really

01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:14.020
good job of actually talking about the Holocaust

01:13:14.020 --> 01:13:18.279
and what the Holocaust actually is or whatever,

01:13:18.439 --> 01:13:20.119
which I think we were talking about Eichmann

01:13:20.119 --> 01:13:23.279
in Jerusalem before. I think that there's a tendency

01:13:23.279 --> 01:13:27.000
nowadays to think of the Holocaust as just like

01:13:27.000 --> 01:13:29.859
this. Basically, it was all about racism and

01:13:29.859 --> 01:13:32.380
that's basically it, you know, and it's like.

01:13:32.840 --> 01:13:36.020
Well, it's not like when Hannah Arendt went and

01:13:36.020 --> 01:13:37.279
saw Eichmann, she was like, well, this isn't

01:13:37.279 --> 01:13:40.199
like a drooling, hateful, anti -Semitic guy.

01:13:40.340 --> 01:13:44.439
This isn't a nation of people who are just drooling

01:13:44.439 --> 01:13:46.680
with their passion to commit violence or whatever.

01:13:46.859 --> 01:13:49.880
A lot of this is like this dispassionate, separated

01:13:49.880 --> 01:13:52.539
thing of like, well, it's not my responsibility.

01:13:52.579 --> 01:13:55.119
I didn't do this or that or whatever. This sort

01:13:55.119 --> 01:13:59.020
of distance, as opposed to like a horror movie

01:13:59.020 --> 01:14:03.310
sort of psychopath. you know, love of violence

01:14:03.310 --> 01:14:05.729
and hatred of Jews sort of thing. I think that

01:14:05.729 --> 01:14:07.949
is true, obviously, of like Hitler and stuff.

01:14:07.989 --> 01:14:10.109
Like some of these guys really, you know, got

01:14:10.109 --> 01:14:15.310
into it. Yeah. They let it get weird. Yeah. Yeah.

01:14:15.430 --> 01:14:17.829
Yeah. I mean, well, what's, yeah, it's, it is

01:14:17.829 --> 01:14:21.390
straight. It's interesting because, you know,

01:14:21.409 --> 01:14:25.329
the Holocaust is such a particularly like. pathological

01:14:25.329 --> 01:14:28.569
expression of the war machine's like inherent

01:14:28.569 --> 01:14:32.409
drive anyway that the state system in my personal

01:14:32.409 --> 01:14:35.109
understanding and read on history is that the

01:14:35.109 --> 01:14:37.699
state System is a genocide machine. That's kind

01:14:37.699 --> 01:14:40.399
of like what it does from its inception is saying,

01:14:40.500 --> 01:14:43.140
OK, we are going to establish some sort of hegemony,

01:14:43.239 --> 01:14:46.000
some some legitimate monopoly of violence within

01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:48.859
these borders. And the state's drive is to acquire

01:14:48.859 --> 01:14:51.420
as much territory as possible. But ecology's

01:14:51.420 --> 01:14:54.079
drive is to diversify as much as possible. So

01:14:54.079 --> 01:14:56.039
when you take a big swath of land like there's

01:14:56.039 --> 01:14:59.020
going to be linguistic diversity and ethnic diversity

01:14:59.020 --> 01:15:01.899
and spiritual diversity. And so if you're trying

01:15:01.899 --> 01:15:04.119
to all bring it under some unifying principle

01:15:04.119 --> 01:15:09.260
like. Russia or Turkey or the Reich, it's inherently

01:15:09.260 --> 01:15:16.000
a genocidal process. What's just so over the

01:15:16.000 --> 01:15:19.180
top about the case of the Third Reich was that

01:15:19.180 --> 01:15:23.359
it was such an intensive use of resources to

01:15:23.359 --> 01:15:27.880
the detriment of the state, but... actually like

01:15:27.880 --> 01:15:31.520
the expressed darkest possible dream of the state

01:15:31.520 --> 01:15:35.140
made so explicit as to be unignorable. But the

01:15:35.140 --> 01:15:37.560
fact is like they were fighting a two front war.

01:15:37.760 --> 01:15:40.220
What were they doing? Expelling all this like

01:15:40.220 --> 01:15:43.840
logistical energy on, on exterminating this,

01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:47.039
you know, a population that would otherwise like.

01:15:47.739 --> 01:15:50.720
I mean, would they? I mean, the World War Two

01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:53.420
is unimaginable without the racism, without the

01:15:53.420 --> 01:15:56.640
like extermination policy toward the Jews and

01:15:56.640 --> 01:15:59.859
the Romani. And like, it's just they're so integral.

01:16:00.100 --> 01:16:04.920
But I it's just a kind of a weird it's just a

01:16:04.920 --> 01:16:08.640
weird phenomenon that does kind of make the Holocaust

01:16:08.640 --> 01:16:11.960
stand out as a genocide in particular, as opposed

01:16:11.960 --> 01:16:14.079
to, for example, the genocide happening in the

01:16:14.079 --> 01:16:16.220
Levant right now, which is like very clearly

01:16:16.220 --> 01:16:18.569
a land grab. It's just like got to get rid of

01:16:18.569 --> 01:16:21.550
the people to take the land. Whereas whereas

01:16:21.550 --> 01:16:25.770
in Nazi Germany, it was like it was actually

01:16:25.770 --> 01:16:29.149
like an ideological, pathological obsession of

01:16:29.149 --> 01:16:31.789
the high command. It was this kind of religious.

01:16:31.989 --> 01:16:34.689
It was a token of their religious fanaticism

01:16:34.689 --> 01:16:38.250
to the extent that it undermined the project.

01:16:38.489 --> 01:16:40.890
Right. You know, it didn't make sense. It didn't

01:16:40.890 --> 01:16:44.899
make sense. A lot of historians really do feel

01:16:44.899 --> 01:16:47.539
the Nazis would have taken over the globe or

01:16:47.539 --> 01:16:52.140
something if they hadn't been so... Racist! If

01:16:52.140 --> 01:16:54.880
their resources hadn't been spread so thin because

01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:57.420
of their racism. Yeah, and not just against the

01:16:57.420 --> 01:17:01.579
Jews, but that's very significant. A lot of the

01:17:01.579 --> 01:17:03.460
best German scientists were Jews and fled and

01:17:03.460 --> 01:17:05.939
then worked their fucking asses off to defeat

01:17:05.939 --> 01:17:08.579
the Nazi machine, obviously. So that was counterproductive.

01:17:08.699 --> 01:17:10.699
We didn't talk about it enough in our episode

01:17:10.699 --> 01:17:12.680
of Oppenheimer, but that's basically what the

01:17:12.680 --> 01:17:16.279
whole fucking movie's about. 100%. 100%. What

01:17:16.279 --> 01:17:17.560
happened to the German Jew? The reason that Hitler

01:17:17.560 --> 01:17:20.060
lost is because he didn't get the right Jews.

01:17:21.339 --> 01:17:24.220
Yeah. Building this, you know, world -ending

01:17:24.220 --> 01:17:26.859
machine. Right, right. We got him first. That's

01:17:26.859 --> 01:17:35.199
exactly right. But also, like, his insane anti

01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:38.640
-Slavic racism. Like, dude, the Slavs hated Stalin.

01:17:39.069 --> 01:17:42.989
At first, they were ready to be like, okay, let's

01:17:42.989 --> 01:17:46.369
be part of the storm that topples the Soviet

01:17:46.369 --> 01:17:50.569
Empire. But as soon as the Nazis crossed the

01:17:50.569 --> 01:17:53.289
border into the Eastern Front, it was like, whoa,

01:17:53.789 --> 01:17:58.250
way more important than we defeat Hitler. And

01:17:58.250 --> 01:18:01.909
so the irony, the great historical irony, I think,

01:18:01.909 --> 01:18:05.439
of Hitler and the Third Reich is... its success

01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:08.319
was predicated on true messianic fanaticism.

01:18:08.340 --> 01:18:10.640
So it actually needed to have that purity of

01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:12.840
conviction and vision in order for Hitler to

01:18:12.840 --> 01:18:14.739
pull off the most insane thing that's ever fucking

01:18:14.739 --> 01:18:18.239
happened in the history of one man's life. And

01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:22.340
at the same time, that was the seeds of its undoing

01:18:22.340 --> 01:18:24.680
because ultimately it's just, that's actually

01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:27.579
not a sustainable model, even if it can get you

01:18:27.579 --> 01:18:30.260
like a big fucking blitzkrieg sugar rush right

01:18:30.260 --> 01:18:34.039
in the beginning there. Oh, totally, man. Yeah,

01:18:34.100 --> 01:18:36.779
and one of the craziest parts about the whole

01:18:36.779 --> 01:18:40.539
entire machinery is one of the things that Hannah

01:18:40.539 --> 01:18:42.720
Arendt brings up in The Banality of Evil as well,

01:18:42.739 --> 01:18:46.779
which is that the Nazis absolutely required the

01:18:46.779 --> 01:18:49.579
cooperation of all of these governments and states

01:18:49.579 --> 01:18:52.600
and the Jews themselves to make this all possible.

01:18:52.680 --> 01:18:54.220
Yeah, this is the thing. This is the thing that

01:18:54.220 --> 01:18:56.640
I think is, on a rewatch of Schindler's List,

01:18:56.760 --> 01:19:00.899
I think that is so... there in this movie the

01:19:00.899 --> 01:19:05.220
whole movie is about people making the wrong

01:19:05.220 --> 01:19:09.800
decision to like help somebody and by doing so

01:19:09.800 --> 01:19:11.880
like sending them to their deaths like you know

01:19:11.880 --> 01:19:14.579
what i mean there's like well i mean the movie

01:19:14.579 --> 01:19:17.659
the movie opens with like a party that schindler's

01:19:17.659 --> 01:19:21.640
at and one of the um the germans is like I'll

01:19:21.640 --> 01:19:23.659
tell you what I mean by cooperative. Two days

01:19:23.659 --> 01:19:25.619
after the law was passed that all Jews have to

01:19:25.619 --> 01:19:27.520
wear the star, the Jewish tailors are turning

01:19:27.520 --> 01:19:29.659
them out by the gross in a variety of fabrics

01:19:29.659 --> 01:19:32.199
at three's low to each. Wow. And then another

01:19:32.199 --> 01:19:33.699
one's like, that's what they do. They weather

01:19:33.699 --> 01:19:37.000
the storm. And there's just like... It's insane

01:19:37.000 --> 01:19:39.920
how many scenes in this movie are dedicated to

01:19:39.920 --> 01:19:42.659
showing, like, the Judenrat that's, like, carrying

01:19:42.659 --> 01:19:44.319
out all the orders of the Reich. Yeah, right.

01:19:44.359 --> 01:19:48.020
Or, like... The capo at the ghetto. Yeah, that

01:19:48.020 --> 01:19:51.859
is a presence throughout the entire movie. Yeah.

01:19:51.960 --> 01:19:54.560
The sort of, the collaborating Jew. The fact

01:19:54.560 --> 01:19:56.420
that the Judenrat has, like, their own police

01:19:56.420 --> 01:19:58.119
force. Yeah. You know, they make sure to have

01:19:58.119 --> 01:20:01.640
a scene where, like, Poldek, the guy that's working

01:20:01.640 --> 01:20:03.970
on the black market with Schindler... One of

01:20:03.970 --> 01:20:05.590
his friends, Goldberg, comes up and he's like,

01:20:05.590 --> 01:20:08.369
I joined, you know, the Jewish police force or

01:20:08.369 --> 01:20:10.310
whatever. And it's like. And his wife says you

01:20:10.310 --> 01:20:12.510
look like a clown in that fucking hat. Yeah,

01:20:12.510 --> 01:20:15.210
yeah. She says you look like a clown. And he's

01:20:15.210 --> 01:20:16.850
like, they're not as bad as everyone says. Well,

01:20:16.949 --> 01:20:18.710
they're worse, but it's a lot of money. Yeah.

01:20:18.710 --> 01:20:23.210
Yeah. You know, Schindler's getting all this

01:20:23.210 --> 01:20:26.329
like free Jewish labor. Oh, and also like Jewish

01:20:26.329 --> 01:20:28.350
investment to build the fucking factory in the

01:20:28.350 --> 01:20:32.170
first place to power. That was in the early scene

01:20:32.170 --> 01:20:34.869
of the movie. Schindler's entire operation is

01:20:34.869 --> 01:20:37.270
funded and built by Jews. This is the thing that

01:20:37.270 --> 01:20:38.630
I think is super interesting about that scene.

01:20:39.029 --> 01:20:42.609
It's Extern tells Schindler in the first place,

01:20:42.670 --> 01:20:44.229
I don't know anybody who would be interested

01:20:44.229 --> 01:20:47.810
in this. And then he says his name. He's like,

01:20:47.930 --> 01:20:51.050
it's Extern, you. You need to tell them to be

01:20:51.050 --> 01:20:53.329
interested. And I think that there's many times

01:20:53.329 --> 01:20:58.829
in this movie where the individual's name being

01:20:58.829 --> 01:21:01.649
pulled out and like stated is enough to make

01:21:01.649 --> 01:21:04.250
them just completely change their mind like you

01:21:04.250 --> 01:21:05.409
know what i mean this happens to a bunch of the

01:21:05.409 --> 01:21:07.810
nazi officers but it happens first it's external

01:21:07.810 --> 01:21:09.489
he's like i have nobody who'd be interested in

01:21:09.489 --> 01:21:11.069
this he's like well you got to tell them to be

01:21:11.069 --> 01:21:14.390
interested in it It's extern. And it's extern

01:21:14.390 --> 01:21:17.670
is also just like the most banal character who

01:21:17.670 --> 01:21:20.810
does everything. And he's completely compliant.

01:21:20.850 --> 01:21:23.130
The next scene, he's literally just helping Schindler

01:21:23.130 --> 01:21:26.510
rip off his Jewish friends. Like he has no idea

01:21:26.510 --> 01:21:28.670
that maybe he'll ever pay him back. And he says

01:21:28.670 --> 01:21:30.869
like, I'll give you, but like his word is worth

01:21:30.869 --> 01:21:32.930
nothing. He's not giving them a contract. And

01:21:32.930 --> 01:21:35.939
he's just like. Stern does not think that he's

01:21:35.939 --> 01:21:37.640
doing the right thing. He's just like, this is

01:21:37.640 --> 01:21:39.180
fucked. No, I don't want to drink with you. You're

01:21:39.180 --> 01:21:42.079
a bad guy. But I'm just doing my job. And he's

01:21:42.079 --> 01:21:44.420
very much like a fucking Eichmann character through

01:21:44.420 --> 01:21:47.560
this entire movie. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And

01:21:47.560 --> 01:21:48.760
the thing that I thought was really interesting

01:21:48.760 --> 01:21:52.600
revisiting Eichmann in Jerusalem was Eichmann's

01:21:52.600 --> 01:21:55.119
continued insistence that he was trying to create

01:21:55.119 --> 01:21:58.439
a new Jewish homeland. And that he wanted to

01:21:58.439 --> 01:22:01.399
do it in Madagascar. Madagascar. Madagascar.

01:22:03.100 --> 01:22:05.920
Basically, that would be Israel, but run by Nazis

01:22:05.920 --> 01:22:09.520
or whatever. Yeah, exactly. And that's because

01:22:09.520 --> 01:22:14.789
he only understood Judaism as... Zionism, because

01:22:14.789 --> 01:22:16.470
he'd only read like three books on the subject.

01:22:16.810 --> 01:22:20.670
But it's a Zionist understanding of Judaism that

01:22:20.670 --> 01:22:22.409
is like, there should be this Jewish homeland

01:22:22.409 --> 01:22:23.890
and we should get these people to this homeland

01:22:23.890 --> 01:22:26.390
and like, you know, out of here and whatever.

01:22:27.069 --> 01:22:29.470
It's not about like an integration of Judaism

01:22:29.470 --> 01:22:31.529
into these other societies. It's about a return

01:22:31.529 --> 01:22:34.329
of Jews to the Jewish homeland. And that's something

01:22:34.329 --> 01:22:38.050
that these Israeli leaders and, you know, and

01:22:38.050 --> 01:22:42.159
Eichmann agreed on, I think. And both... The,

01:22:42.300 --> 01:22:46.579
you know, with the Havara agreement in Israel,

01:22:46.680 --> 01:22:48.479
like allowing the Nazis to continue to think

01:22:48.479 --> 01:22:51.180
that they got, you know, 50 ,000 Jews sent to

01:22:51.180 --> 01:22:53.500
Israel or something, a certain amount of Jews

01:22:53.500 --> 01:22:56.439
that they chose as the ones that should survive

01:22:56.439 --> 01:22:58.539
or whatever. They decided, OK, if you send us

01:22:58.539 --> 01:23:01.539
these, then we will continue to fund this. You

01:23:01.539 --> 01:23:03.659
know, we'll continue to trade with the Nazi regime

01:23:03.659 --> 01:23:07.619
and whatever. And all of these people, Schindler

01:23:07.619 --> 01:23:14.039
or its extern, I guess. You know, Eichmann. These

01:23:14.039 --> 01:23:15.880
are all people who have the same narrative of,

01:23:15.899 --> 01:23:18.060
like, I was trying to save these people. Like,

01:23:18.060 --> 01:23:22.260
I, you know, I did this. There's a good anecdote

01:23:22.260 --> 01:23:26.020
in the book where Eichmann's talking about, like,

01:23:26.060 --> 01:23:27.859
oh, there was one time I went to a concentration

01:23:27.859 --> 01:23:29.659
camp. I don't know, it was Auschwitz, maybe.

01:23:29.760 --> 01:23:32.180
I don't know. I don't think it was because he

01:23:32.180 --> 01:23:34.159
wasn't there much. I don't know. But he went

01:23:34.159 --> 01:23:35.619
to some concentration camp and he recognized

01:23:35.619 --> 01:23:39.199
some guy that he knew from before the war or

01:23:39.199 --> 01:23:41.930
whatever, some Jew. And he was, like, an old,

01:23:41.970 --> 01:23:43.510
crotchety guy or whatever. And he was like, oh,

01:23:43.569 --> 01:23:45.949
well, like, let's make sure that he doesn't have

01:23:45.949 --> 01:23:48.430
a job or whatever. Like, let's, like, let him

01:23:48.430 --> 01:23:49.970
just stay here, but he doesn't have to do, like,

01:23:50.010 --> 01:23:52.670
slave labor or whatever. And he tells this to,

01:23:52.810 --> 01:23:54.409
you know, some Nazi officer. And he's like, no,

01:23:54.430 --> 01:23:56.050
everybody has to do labor here. That's the deal.

01:23:56.310 --> 01:23:58.810
He's like, okay, well, how about this? I, like,

01:23:58.810 --> 01:24:00.310
am a superior officer. I'm going to make a new

01:24:00.310 --> 01:24:03.470
job. That is, he has to sweep this path clean.

01:24:03.649 --> 01:24:05.649
And we're going to put a bench here. And he can

01:24:05.649 --> 01:24:07.829
sit on this bench. And he can make sure that

01:24:07.829 --> 01:24:10.289
the path is clear. That's his job. And they're

01:24:10.289 --> 01:24:11.829
like, okay. And they made that job for him. And

01:24:11.829 --> 01:24:13.689
I can tell us the story as like, see, so like

01:24:13.689 --> 01:24:15.350
I was a good guy and I helped this guy or whatever.

01:24:15.470 --> 01:24:17.510
Like what actually happened was like two weeks

01:24:17.510 --> 01:24:19.189
later, that guy was shot. You know what I mean?

01:24:19.229 --> 01:24:21.130
He's still in a fucking concentration camp that

01:24:21.130 --> 01:24:22.829
you're helping to just to construct or whatever.

01:24:22.989 --> 01:24:24.829
You have these like personal interactions of

01:24:24.829 --> 01:24:26.609
like saving this person or that person that allows

01:24:26.609 --> 01:24:29.350
you to feel like you did well. But even this

01:24:29.350 --> 01:24:30.649
person or that person probably didn't fucking

01:24:30.649 --> 01:24:32.189
survive. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think

01:24:32.189 --> 01:24:35.609
in the Schindler case or it's Zach Stern's case,

01:24:35.710 --> 01:24:39.149
like. Schindler is cooperating with a lot of

01:24:39.149 --> 01:24:41.670
the fucking worst people in the world on this

01:24:41.670 --> 01:24:44.729
front. Like, the worst front around. You know

01:24:44.729 --> 01:24:47.609
what I mean? And he's helping them to succeed

01:24:47.609 --> 01:24:52.829
and whatever. But he feels good about the fact

01:24:52.829 --> 01:24:54.789
that he saved some of them. You know what I mean?

01:24:54.850 --> 01:24:56.710
And it's like, well, was the good that he did,

01:24:56.829 --> 01:24:58.989
did that outweigh the bad that he did? I don't

01:24:58.989 --> 01:25:00.949
know. You know what I mean? Like, I think that

01:25:00.949 --> 01:25:02.829
in the end we see, like, there are these generations

01:25:02.829 --> 01:25:04.569
of people who walk up and put the things on the

01:25:04.569 --> 01:25:08.100
grave, whatever. But how many other people were

01:25:08.100 --> 01:25:10.140
just sent to their deaths because Schindler paid

01:25:10.140 --> 01:25:13.020
somebody off to save this one that he cared about?

01:25:13.239 --> 01:25:14.840
You know what I mean? Which is similar to Israel.

01:25:14.939 --> 01:25:16.920
How many people did you send to your deaths because

01:25:16.920 --> 01:25:18.779
you wanted to populate your country with these

01:25:18.779 --> 01:25:22.100
people? And you had to choose on a list which

01:25:22.100 --> 01:25:23.979
ones died and which ones survived and whatever.

01:25:24.079 --> 01:25:27.300
And we see in this movie Stern himself making

01:25:27.300 --> 01:25:30.399
that list of who is and isn't allowed to survive

01:25:30.399 --> 01:25:33.529
and choosing. and doing a lot of the work of

01:25:33.529 --> 01:25:36.789
the genocide. In this case, it's to save somebody.

01:25:37.390 --> 01:25:42.590
Rudolf Haas in the scene, he goes to Auschwitz

01:25:42.590 --> 01:25:45.430
to get the women back, and Rudolf Haas says you

01:25:45.430 --> 01:25:46.949
shouldn't be concerned with names or whatever.

01:25:47.909 --> 01:25:52.449
Yeah, I mean, I'll just say, yeah, it sort of

01:25:52.449 --> 01:26:00.449
just, again, to me, emphasizes the inherent genocidal

01:26:00.449 --> 01:26:06.340
structure. the state and empire and that that

01:26:06.340 --> 01:26:09.939
is its ultimate drive is toward genocide and

01:26:09.939 --> 01:26:15.600
if you are not questioning the very terms if

01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:19.479
you're like playing along on any level there's

01:26:19.479 --> 01:26:23.340
no way to extricate yourself from some degree

01:26:23.340 --> 01:26:26.640
of culpability in terms of the violence that

01:26:26.640 --> 01:26:30.000
the machine creates like I personally my read

01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:33.319
is that You know, Oskar Schindler was a unique

01:26:33.319 --> 01:26:37.640
phenomenon because instead of literally just

01:26:37.640 --> 01:26:40.020
like getting the most that he could and dipping

01:26:40.020 --> 01:26:42.220
the fuck out and saying like, you know what,

01:26:42.279 --> 01:26:43.800
I've got enough money to figure it out later,

01:26:43.880 --> 01:26:46.460
which a lot of Nazi industrialists did and they

01:26:46.460 --> 01:26:50.640
were fine. They had their money like post -war

01:26:50.640 --> 01:26:53.539
and like became foundations of anti -communism

01:26:53.539 --> 01:26:58.020
in Europe. with the understanding that that's

01:26:58.020 --> 01:26:59.300
what that was. Yeah, but they probably weren't

01:26:59.300 --> 01:27:02.119
running a scam during the war. Schindler was

01:27:02.119 --> 01:27:05.079
running a scam. Dude, they were all running scams.

01:27:05.079 --> 01:27:06.439
But I mean, they probably delivered something.

01:27:07.079 --> 01:27:11.020
Well, for one, when he made his money, he was

01:27:11.020 --> 01:27:13.579
delivering the enamel cookware. The scam was

01:27:13.579 --> 01:27:18.579
later on, which is... With the armaments that

01:27:18.579 --> 01:27:20.199
don't work. Yeah, the armaments that don't work,

01:27:20.239 --> 01:27:23.920
which is arguably heroic sabotage. Arguably.

01:27:24.840 --> 01:27:28.039
And I would say that, honestly, you could totally

01:27:28.039 --> 01:27:30.319
make the argument that it was self -preservationist

01:27:30.319 --> 01:27:32.699
and that it was kind of Machiavellian. I do think

01:27:32.699 --> 01:27:35.020
that one thing that's clear about Oskar Schindler

01:27:35.020 --> 01:27:38.000
from the very beginning is he's just he is monumentally

01:27:38.000 --> 01:27:40.380
intelligent. And it's like from that very first

01:27:40.380 --> 01:27:42.159
scene, which I love when you first meet Oskar

01:27:42.159 --> 01:27:44.859
Schindler, just the way he's. watching the room

01:27:44.859 --> 01:27:47.399
and he's understanding how people are interacting

01:27:47.399 --> 01:27:49.979
and where to stand and who to, he's like, he's

01:27:49.979 --> 01:27:52.920
nothing but like, just kind of like, like sensitive

01:27:52.920 --> 01:27:55.239
charisma personified. He's like, who even is

01:27:55.239 --> 01:27:58.359
this guy other than someone who is just good

01:27:58.359 --> 01:28:00.600
at like, you know, a classic kind of businessman,

01:28:00.739 --> 01:28:02.880
a classic shrewd and brilliant businessman who

01:28:02.880 --> 01:28:05.819
just like knows whose hand to shake and, and

01:28:05.819 --> 01:28:09.000
you know, who to like buddy up to. And, and that

01:28:09.000 --> 01:28:12.340
over the course of the film, I do think that,

01:28:12.420 --> 01:28:15.979
you know, For one, the distance between him and

01:28:15.979 --> 01:28:18.199
all the characters around him, I think, is pretty

01:28:18.199 --> 01:28:20.520
significant in terms of, like, his complexity

01:28:20.520 --> 01:28:24.720
and subtlety and sophistication. I think the

01:28:24.720 --> 01:28:27.579
Itch Doc Stern, like, there's a lot to say about

01:28:27.579 --> 01:28:29.380
that relationship that I think is interesting.

01:28:29.500 --> 01:28:32.140
But for the most part, I think that stands in

01:28:32.140 --> 01:28:34.939
terms of his depth and intelligence versus basically

01:28:34.939 --> 01:28:39.399
every other character in the movie. But I also...

01:28:40.220 --> 01:28:44.079
I also believe that, you know, there were a lot

01:28:44.079 --> 01:28:47.199
of military, like, Nazi industrialists who got

01:28:47.199 --> 01:28:49.460
theirs, made an insane amount of money, and then

01:28:49.460 --> 01:28:53.260
just, like, fucking, like, the war ended, and

01:28:53.260 --> 01:28:55.439
they were able to maintain, yeah, they disappeared,

01:28:55.479 --> 01:28:57.699
or they were able to maintain, the state of Germany,

01:28:57.800 --> 01:29:00.300
were able to maintain their position, and that,

01:29:00.359 --> 01:29:05.399
like, if, hypothetically, every Nazi industrialist

01:29:05.399 --> 01:29:09.729
had a Oscar Schindler revelation, like, In fact,

01:29:09.750 --> 01:29:12.670
millions of Jews, millions of Jews wouldn't have

01:29:12.670 --> 01:29:15.810
been killed who were killed. Like I want, I do

01:29:15.810 --> 01:29:20.090
want to give the man some credit. It was a, it's,

01:29:20.130 --> 01:29:23.710
I think that one of the great and subtle master

01:29:23.710 --> 01:29:26.630
strokes of the film is that question of like

01:29:26.630 --> 01:29:29.750
power, true power is the power to save someone's

01:29:29.750 --> 01:29:32.829
life. And, and that really just unforgettable

01:29:32.829 --> 01:29:35.869
scene where like Amon Goeth is like, like looking

01:29:35.869 --> 01:29:37.770
in the mirror and he's like. I pardon you. I

01:29:37.770 --> 01:29:39.569
pardon you. And he's like, and he's like experimenting

01:29:39.569 --> 01:29:41.649
with this like Oscar Schindler model of what

01:29:41.649 --> 01:29:44.189
power looks like because he's this like primitive

01:29:44.189 --> 01:29:46.350
fuck up. Whereas like Oscar Schindler is this

01:29:46.350 --> 01:29:49.029
like beautifully integrated, subtle, subtly minded

01:29:49.029 --> 01:29:54.449
man. But I mean, he's also a smart manipulator.

01:29:54.689 --> 01:29:59.250
He's, he's, he's not. 100%. That's part of, that's

01:29:59.250 --> 01:30:00.529
part of his mastery is that he's manipulating

01:30:00.529 --> 01:30:03.710
everyone around him. Exactly. But his, his motives

01:30:03.710 --> 01:30:06.569
changed throughout the movie too. And like, This

01:30:06.569 --> 01:30:08.649
brings up an important distinction between the

01:30:08.649 --> 01:30:10.609
book and the movie. One of the few things I know

01:30:10.609 --> 01:30:15.130
is that in the book, Schindler's List, for one,

01:30:15.409 --> 01:30:17.710
it's much more of a, it's a historical fiction,

01:30:17.850 --> 01:30:22.069
but it like derives everything from historical

01:30:22.069 --> 01:30:25.670
record and then like anecdotes from Schindler

01:30:25.670 --> 01:30:29.420
himself and the survivors. So it reads a lot

01:30:29.420 --> 01:30:32.239
more like a historical text than like a novel,

01:30:32.500 --> 01:30:34.779
you know, even though it does have dialogue scenes.

01:30:35.399 --> 01:30:37.720
It like sort of tries to have its cake and eat

01:30:37.720 --> 01:30:41.020
it too in that way. It's like a, it's a narrative

01:30:41.020 --> 01:30:43.260
and like a lot of the scenes in it, like, you

01:30:43.260 --> 01:30:45.460
know, some of the scenes in it are in the movie.

01:30:46.020 --> 01:30:48.760
And some of the dialogue in the movie is lifted

01:30:48.760 --> 01:30:50.979
directly from the book. But like a lot of the

01:30:50.979 --> 01:30:53.319
book is describing things in a detail that the

01:30:53.319 --> 01:30:56.460
movie just can't even begin to, you know, because

01:30:56.460 --> 01:30:59.729
it's like. telling the anecdotes of lots of different

01:30:59.729 --> 01:31:03.170
survivors and all these different things. And

01:31:03.170 --> 01:31:05.430
it tells the whole entire story of Schindler's

01:31:05.430 --> 01:31:08.989
like childhood and like all the sort of minutia

01:31:08.989 --> 01:31:11.350
of all the various deals. And like, you know,

01:31:11.350 --> 01:31:15.550
exact, uh, Stern is a composite character in

01:31:15.550 --> 01:31:16.989
the movie in a lot of ways. So there's just like

01:31:16.989 --> 01:31:19.350
a lot more information and stuff going on. It's

01:31:19.350 --> 01:31:21.869
trying to be more like a, a record of what's

01:31:21.869 --> 01:31:24.069
going on. Right. One of the big things is how,

01:31:24.170 --> 01:31:27.680
like right off the bat, It's very, very clear

01:31:27.680 --> 01:31:30.600
about the morality of Schindler. It describes

01:31:30.600 --> 01:31:34.720
Schindler as a character who hates these Nazis,

01:31:34.779 --> 01:31:38.960
is trying to save Jews, isn't about building

01:31:38.960 --> 01:31:41.500
some kind of successful enterprise at all. And

01:31:41.500 --> 01:31:46.720
the book begins with the scene where he's talking

01:31:46.720 --> 01:31:48.539
to Helen Hirsch in the basement. She's talking

01:31:48.539 --> 01:31:53.220
about how Amon beats her and whatever. And in

01:31:53.220 --> 01:31:55.000
the book, he, like, cries in front of her and

01:31:55.000 --> 01:31:57.060
stuff. He's, like, much more sympathetic and

01:31:57.060 --> 01:31:58.680
whatever than in the movie where he's still a

01:31:58.680 --> 01:32:01.600
little bit more distanced. Yeah, he says he won't

01:32:01.600 --> 01:32:03.560
kill you because you're precious to him. Yeah,

01:32:03.619 --> 01:32:08.420
and so I think the movie's choice to not fill

01:32:08.420 --> 01:32:10.399
you in on Schindler's life and make him very

01:32:10.399 --> 01:32:14.359
distanced is notable, you know, because it makes

01:32:14.359 --> 01:32:17.680
it harder to know him. Much like Wonka, I think.

01:32:18.779 --> 01:32:21.060
much like wonka or oppenheimer or whatever there's

01:32:21.060 --> 01:32:22.560
a bit of a remove that makes it hard for you

01:32:22.560 --> 01:32:23.939
to totally know what's going on in their heads

01:32:23.939 --> 01:32:26.960
what their motives are but schindler seems pretty

01:32:26.960 --> 01:32:30.439
like motivated by just making money in the beginning

01:32:30.439 --> 01:32:32.960
i think like all of his machinations are about

01:32:32.960 --> 01:32:35.560
getting these connections and using this labor

01:32:35.560 --> 01:32:37.579
force and just like basically taking advantage

01:32:37.579 --> 01:32:40.619
of war and he even admits that to his wife when

01:32:40.619 --> 01:32:42.479
she comes and visits like i just want to be known

01:32:42.479 --> 01:32:45.159
for doing something extraordinary which is like

01:32:45.159 --> 01:32:47.739
taking this nothing and turning it into like

01:32:47.739 --> 01:32:51.100
the most profitable like pot factory or whatever

01:32:51.100 --> 01:32:52.739
you know this is the thing i think i think his

01:32:52.739 --> 01:32:56.840
motivations are essentially capitalist or at

01:32:56.840 --> 01:32:59.619
least industrialist motivations and that's that's

01:32:59.619 --> 01:33:01.520
why like i think that like when we're talking

01:33:01.520 --> 01:33:02.939
about schindler i think we're really talking

01:33:02.939 --> 01:33:06.529
about like america and, like, Western sort of

01:33:06.529 --> 01:33:08.609
intervention and stuff, and, like, you know,

01:33:08.609 --> 01:33:11.470
the Western cooperation, how easily Western nations

01:33:11.470 --> 01:33:13.789
got along with, you know, the Nazi regime and

01:33:13.789 --> 01:33:16.789
stuff. Oh, 100%. How compatible these two ideologies

01:33:16.789 --> 01:33:19.770
are. Like, Goloth and Schindler are kind of like...

01:33:20.039 --> 01:33:22.960
You know what I mean? That's one in the other.

01:33:23.100 --> 01:33:26.640
Oh, 100%. Like the state and industry. Exactly.

01:33:27.000 --> 01:33:33.279
And I definitely think that a very notable, unforgettable

01:33:33.279 --> 01:33:37.119
line in the movie was, you know, I tried a bunch

01:33:37.119 --> 01:33:39.659
of things, but there was one thing, but none

01:33:39.659 --> 01:33:41.539
of these businesses were successful. There was

01:33:41.539 --> 01:33:44.359
one thing that was missing. And for me, I thought

01:33:44.359 --> 01:33:48.170
that was like, I thought that the space... following

01:33:48.170 --> 01:33:50.109
that lent itself to the suggestion that it was

01:33:50.109 --> 01:33:53.229
like, it's ox stern as in like, I just needed

01:33:53.229 --> 01:33:55.449
my court Jew. I just needed my like, like Jew

01:33:55.449 --> 01:33:57.050
to do everything. But that's of course not the

01:33:57.050 --> 01:33:59.770
line. He says, it's the war. Like the one, the

01:33:59.770 --> 01:34:02.369
one thing that I was missing was the war. And

01:34:02.369 --> 01:34:06.810
to me, that's like, you know, that is, uh, uh,

01:34:06.810 --> 01:34:10.449
just such crucial insight into what like industry

01:34:10.449 --> 01:34:14.149
and capitalism is. It needs the war. And, and

01:34:14.149 --> 01:34:16.779
it's like, um, the Thomas Pynchon quote from

01:34:16.779 --> 01:34:19.699
gravity's rainbow, you know, the real war is

01:34:19.699 --> 01:34:22.659
buying and selling the, the mass death of like,

01:34:22.840 --> 01:34:25.560
you know, the, the battlefield that can be trusted

01:34:25.560 --> 01:34:27.600
to non -professionals, but the real war is buying

01:34:27.600 --> 01:34:30.819
and selling. And I do think that that is kind

01:34:30.819 --> 01:34:37.140
of the inescapable conclusion of, of, of this

01:34:37.140 --> 01:34:41.020
story, like this story of wealth making and success,

01:34:41.119 --> 01:34:44.409
how It is interesting. I find it to be genuinely

01:34:44.409 --> 01:34:49.050
interesting, just the story of Schindler accumulating

01:34:49.050 --> 01:34:52.050
his wealth alone, absent the context of the Holocaust

01:34:52.050 --> 01:34:54.550
and all the implications there. It's a beautifully

01:34:54.550 --> 01:34:57.949
told story, very sort of succinctly, concisely

01:34:57.949 --> 01:35:01.609
told about how a charismatic and sensitive and

01:35:01.609 --> 01:35:04.670
intuitive... big personality can become extremely

01:35:04.670 --> 01:35:07.970
wealthy just by like wiring up the right sort

01:35:07.970 --> 01:35:09.850
of corrupt connections and like getting someone

01:35:09.850 --> 01:35:12.210
in a like in a corner who needs help it's another

01:35:12.210 --> 01:35:14.590
randian story almost yeah it's another randian

01:35:14.590 --> 01:35:17.550
story yeah it totally is um and it's like pretty

01:35:17.550 --> 01:35:20.850
satisfactorily told and the for me the inescapable

01:35:20.850 --> 01:35:23.470
conclusion is like oh yeah like he's just taking

01:35:24.100 --> 01:35:26.579
Advantage of basically like the chaos of wartime.

01:35:26.640 --> 01:35:29.619
But isn't that just so much of how capitalism

01:35:29.619 --> 01:35:32.859
actually works is around these these moments

01:35:32.859 --> 01:35:38.239
of crises, manufactured crises. Yeah. Like on

01:35:38.239 --> 01:35:40.100
that on that subject, like I want to go back

01:35:40.100 --> 01:35:42.539
to the first deal he makes in the back of the

01:35:42.539 --> 01:35:46.239
car with the two older Jews outside of the ghetto,

01:35:46.300 --> 01:35:50.180
where the end of that scene is where they say.

01:35:50.729 --> 01:35:52.569
You know, this is not a good deal for us or whatever.

01:35:52.770 --> 01:35:55.010
Like, we did this money or whatever. He's like,

01:35:55.010 --> 01:35:57.590
no, you don't. Like, that's why I'm here. You

01:35:57.590 --> 01:35:59.090
called this meeting. Like, you want to talk to

01:35:59.090 --> 01:36:01.130
me? I'm like, yeah, well, but money is still

01:36:01.130 --> 01:36:03.800
money. And he says, no, it's not. That's what

01:36:03.800 --> 01:36:05.819
I'm telling you. Like he's ahead of this. Yeah.

01:36:05.920 --> 01:36:08.539
And he's like, no, it's not your money. That

01:36:08.539 --> 01:36:11.220
currency is going to be useless. Yeah. Now what

01:36:11.220 --> 01:36:13.060
you need is these physical things and whatever.

01:36:13.319 --> 01:36:16.220
I think that if you're looking at him as an industrialist

01:36:16.220 --> 01:36:17.939
who's cooperating with the Nazis and whatever,

01:36:18.079 --> 01:36:21.859
and then is ahead of these times and understands

01:36:21.859 --> 01:36:26.619
the transfer of commodities, I think that that's

01:36:26.619 --> 01:36:29.489
what we really see. This is. This is my interpretation

01:36:29.489 --> 01:36:31.449
of the ending of the movie, man. That's what

01:36:31.449 --> 01:36:34.250
his whole speech is about. This watch could be

01:36:34.250 --> 01:36:35.409
another person. This thing could be another.

01:36:35.529 --> 01:36:37.529
He's just transferring commodities for the new

01:36:37.529 --> 01:36:41.109
commodity, which is fucking the Jew. You know

01:36:41.109 --> 01:36:42.890
what I mean? We're going to protect him after

01:36:42.890 --> 01:36:45.449
the war and he will live off of them for forever

01:36:45.449 --> 01:36:48.109
and be hailed as a fucking god to them or whatever.

01:36:48.350 --> 01:36:51.310
And why? Just because he figured out how to transfer...

01:36:51.659 --> 01:36:54.199
all of the bad shit he did during the war into

01:36:54.199 --> 01:36:56.899
like a new commodity which is this like sort

01:36:56.899 --> 01:37:00.239
of absolution uh the the forgiveness of the jew

01:37:00.239 --> 01:37:03.239
exactly because like good karma post -holocaust

01:37:03.239 --> 01:37:05.819
exactly exactly yeah that's that's where if you're

01:37:05.819 --> 01:37:07.720
talking about the other industrialists who survived

01:37:07.720 --> 01:37:10.720
by like going let's sure they survived kind of

01:37:10.720 --> 01:37:13.560
but schindler is a fucking nazi that we have

01:37:13.560 --> 01:37:16.760
a movie made by jews who talk about how glorious

01:37:16.760 --> 01:37:20.880
like this nazi was i mean that's a crazy That's

01:37:20.880 --> 01:37:23.199
like ahead of the... That really is. That is

01:37:23.199 --> 01:37:25.380
true. Like that is true mastery. You know what

01:37:25.380 --> 01:37:29.720
else Schindler says to Stern in the first meeting?

01:37:29.859 --> 01:37:32.619
He just says like, he says like, I can't do the

01:37:32.619 --> 01:37:34.840
work. That's not what I'm good at. I do the presentation.

01:37:35.380 --> 01:37:37.489
Yeah. Right. Well, I think that part of it is

01:37:37.489 --> 01:37:39.710
like I think that Schindler is a very, very smart

01:37:39.710 --> 01:37:42.630
guy, but he's also just like a failed businessman,

01:37:42.630 --> 01:37:44.350
like everybody fucking else in the right. Like

01:37:44.350 --> 01:37:46.729
it's like failed scientists and failed politicians

01:37:46.729 --> 01:37:49.829
and artists who like like finally they kicked

01:37:49.829 --> 01:37:51.449
out all of the competent people who were like,

01:37:51.529 --> 01:37:54.970
fuck this Nazi thing. Yeah. Like, well. Too bad.

01:37:54.989 --> 01:37:57.770
Now it's us. And then the dumbest people in the

01:37:57.770 --> 01:38:00.010
world are running shit. I feel like there's part

01:38:00.010 --> 01:38:01.789
of it where, like, yeah, Schindler is cunning

01:38:01.789 --> 01:38:03.729
and smarter than everybody. But, like, it's also,

01:38:03.789 --> 01:38:05.550
like, he couldn't fucking run a business. And

01:38:05.550 --> 01:38:08.069
he never did after the war. He never was a successful

01:38:08.069 --> 01:38:11.229
businessman at all. It was only this wartime

01:38:11.229 --> 01:38:13.689
thing that he, like, it was the only thing that

01:38:13.689 --> 01:38:15.630
he was ever successful during. And even then,

01:38:15.710 --> 01:38:17.680
like. I mean, maybe the POTS wasn't a scam, but

01:38:17.680 --> 01:38:21.319
eventually it was still a scam. He can't produce

01:38:21.319 --> 01:38:23.979
things. And maybe the weapons manufacturing thing

01:38:23.979 --> 01:38:26.699
is another fucking change of the narrative. It

01:38:26.699 --> 01:38:30.359
was just like, dude, I can't make a fucking operating,

01:38:30.479 --> 01:38:34.319
like, really good... factory you know what i

01:38:34.319 --> 01:38:35.859
mean you know how hard it is to build bombs that

01:38:35.859 --> 01:38:37.960
actually go out of the like so it's just kind

01:38:37.960 --> 01:38:39.640
of like if you keep failing for a while it's

01:38:39.640 --> 01:38:41.720
like no well i'm i'm i'm doing this for the right

01:38:41.720 --> 01:38:43.859
reasons i'm a good guy and like you know what

01:38:43.859 --> 01:38:46.020
i mean it's it's a lot of this sort of changing

01:38:46.020 --> 01:38:47.859
of the narrative thing i think it's very interesting

01:38:47.859 --> 01:38:50.300
yeah and i think like connecting to eichmann

01:38:50.300 --> 01:38:52.819
and to try the attempt to change the narrative

01:38:52.819 --> 01:38:55.239
yeah same with oppenheimer as well um but it

01:38:55.239 --> 01:38:56.319
connects with eichmann and i think it connects

01:38:56.319 --> 01:39:00.060
a lot with israel um yeah where Specifically,

01:39:00.119 --> 01:39:01.720
I think that part of Eichmann in Jerusalem, the

01:39:01.720 --> 01:39:03.380
book is talking about the idea of the banality

01:39:03.380 --> 01:39:05.699
of evil and that Eichmann himself is not that

01:39:05.699 --> 01:39:07.699
different from an American industrialist or something.

01:39:08.610 --> 01:39:11.250
Um, but I think that a lot of what the book's

01:39:11.250 --> 01:39:13.510
also saying is that there is very little difference

01:39:13.510 --> 01:39:15.310
between what Eichmann was doing and what the

01:39:15.310 --> 01:39:17.510
Israeli leaders were doing at the time. And like,

01:39:17.609 --> 01:39:20.329
not that there was no difference, you know what

01:39:20.329 --> 01:39:22.550
I mean? There's, there's a certain, like Eichmann

01:39:22.550 --> 01:39:24.770
still wanted to be the Nazi in charge of Israel,

01:39:24.890 --> 01:39:31.119
um, or, or, or, of, um, Madagascar. Yeah. there's

01:39:31.119 --> 01:39:32.859
a guy in Israel who wanted to be in charge of

01:39:32.859 --> 01:39:36.319
Israel and made the same deal. The basic difference

01:39:36.319 --> 01:39:40.960
is that he was a Jew and that a lot of what Hannah

01:39:40.960 --> 01:39:42.899
Arendt's saying in the Eichmann in Jerusalem

01:39:42.899 --> 01:39:47.060
book is that it was very important for Israel

01:39:47.060 --> 01:39:50.670
to have this trial. Not because of any figuring

01:39:50.670 --> 01:39:52.390
out of the punishment for this person or whatever,

01:39:52.489 --> 01:39:54.109
but in order to create a show trial in which

01:39:54.109 --> 01:39:56.930
they can actually like create a new narrative

01:39:56.930 --> 01:40:00.250
for the Holocaust. That like at the Nuremberg

01:40:00.250 --> 01:40:02.930
trials, the Jews were not mentioned specifically.

01:40:03.350 --> 01:40:06.750
And that Israel needed to talk about this was

01:40:06.750 --> 01:40:08.529
specifically an anti -Jewish thing. That's what

01:40:08.529 --> 01:40:10.449
the entire Holocaust was about. And it was about

01:40:10.449 --> 01:40:13.310
racism. It was about the hateful racism of this

01:40:13.310 --> 01:40:16.640
guy who we want to prove was a racist. And that

01:40:16.640 --> 01:40:18.720
makes him different from any of the Jewish people

01:40:18.720 --> 01:40:21.000
who also collaborated because they were not racist.

01:40:21.180 --> 01:40:23.319
And like they just were doing what they had to

01:40:23.319 --> 01:40:25.920
in the place and whatever in time. And they helped

01:40:25.920 --> 01:40:28.539
people. They helped 50 ,000. Like, you know what

01:40:28.539 --> 01:40:31.060
I mean? Or Schindler helped this many or, you

01:40:31.060 --> 01:40:34.479
know. Yeah, Eichmann did deport a lot of Jews

01:40:34.479 --> 01:40:37.199
before it got real bad. I mean, he apparently

01:40:37.199 --> 01:40:41.319
was making a good faith effort to try and deport

01:40:41.319 --> 01:40:43.840
as many Jews as he could. So as not to kill them.

01:40:44.319 --> 01:40:47.100
And then, you know, a lot of it after that was

01:40:47.100 --> 01:40:49.300
trying to reduce the suffering. He didn't know

01:40:49.300 --> 01:40:50.760
they were going to be killed yet, but he knew

01:40:50.760 --> 01:40:52.760
they were going to go to a worse place, like

01:40:52.760 --> 01:40:55.960
a ghetto or a concentration camp or something.

01:40:56.039 --> 01:41:00.649
But obviously, like. people's ignorance of how

01:41:00.649 --> 01:41:03.789
evil the Nazis could be was part of why so many

01:41:03.789 --> 01:41:06.890
people went along with it. Right. Yeah. But as

01:41:06.890 --> 01:41:09.130
I understand it, by the end of the war, by the

01:41:09.130 --> 01:41:12.729
end of the war, Eichmann was like enthusiastically

01:41:12.729 --> 01:41:17.289
backing the final solution. Um, as in, as in

01:41:17.289 --> 01:41:19.869
not, not to say that that was, I, I, my understanding

01:41:19.869 --> 01:41:22.250
of him is the same as like, he was like this

01:41:22.250 --> 01:41:23.989
kind of design, this like sort of weird proto.

01:41:24.570 --> 01:41:26.649
But he was not ignorant of the final solution.

01:41:26.689 --> 01:41:28.189
But he was not ignorant of the final solution.

01:41:28.270 --> 01:41:30.930
And by the end, he had just kind of like the

01:41:30.930 --> 01:41:34.010
years of war and politics had turned him into

01:41:34.010 --> 01:41:37.050
this machine that was just really trying to express

01:41:37.050 --> 01:41:39.550
the will of the Reich. And the extermination

01:41:39.550 --> 01:41:41.930
of the Jews had become really central to the

01:41:41.930 --> 01:41:44.109
will of the Reich. And he just kind of blended

01:41:44.109 --> 01:41:46.970
into the power structure, which I feel like at

01:41:46.970 --> 01:41:50.520
the end of the day. is the lesson again and again

01:41:50.520 --> 01:41:52.880
and again with all of these stories that like

01:41:52.880 --> 01:41:57.239
there are people who somehow can break free of

01:41:57.239 --> 01:41:59.920
this cycle and that and like that's the hero's

01:41:59.920 --> 01:42:02.119
fucking story, the hero's journey. But for the

01:42:02.119 --> 01:42:05.439
most part, like we are what we eat. And if you

01:42:05.439 --> 01:42:09.560
spend every day working for and with this genocidal

01:42:09.560 --> 01:42:12.520
machine, it just turns you into a cog in the

01:42:12.520 --> 01:42:16.020
machine itself. And that's the case in any kind

01:42:16.020 --> 01:42:19.539
of. statecraft, but in the case of Eichmann in

01:42:19.539 --> 01:42:22.319
Jerusalem, it's particularly potent because they're

01:42:22.319 --> 01:42:24.680
trying to make it something that it's not, which

01:42:24.680 --> 01:42:28.140
is utterly banal. The truth is utterly banal,

01:42:28.159 --> 01:42:32.000
but they're trying to make it a very particular

01:42:32.000 --> 01:42:36.979
story about the Jews' inalienable... how, how

01:42:36.979 --> 01:42:40.659
the Jews are inalienably loathsome. Like there,

01:42:40.760 --> 01:42:43.100
and this is like, that is kind of my interpretation.

01:42:43.340 --> 01:42:46.600
A lot of, a lot of this Zionism, um, is that

01:42:46.600 --> 01:42:49.920
it's political Zionism, not spiritual Zionism,

01:42:49.920 --> 01:42:51.779
which I feel like is a different thing, but political

01:42:51.779 --> 01:42:54.539
Zionism, this like understanding that the Jew

01:42:54.539 --> 01:42:59.340
is so like inherently loathsome that like they

01:42:59.340 --> 01:43:01.920
can never be safe anywhere in the world and they

01:43:01.920 --> 01:43:04.300
need to be here right and like like you could

01:43:04.300 --> 01:43:07.340
yeah and like that like i i just take so i just

01:43:07.340 --> 01:43:09.640
take so much personal offense to that i find

01:43:09.640 --> 01:43:12.720
that to be so intolerable too where she's talking

01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:14.619
about like i mean she essentially talks about

01:43:14.619 --> 01:43:19.819
like the um um zionist argument or whatever and

01:43:19.819 --> 01:43:21.920
then like for like how the jews have been kicked

01:43:21.920 --> 01:43:23.319
out of every single place i've ever been for

01:43:23.319 --> 01:43:24.619
all these years and that there's this spiritual

01:43:24.619 --> 01:43:28.460
thing that blah blah like How very similar that

01:43:28.460 --> 01:43:31.420
is to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It's

01:43:31.420 --> 01:43:33.859
almost the exact same story, but the difference

01:43:33.859 --> 01:43:38.979
is connotation, basically. It is a crazy conspiracy

01:43:38.979 --> 01:43:42.640
theory. Do you remember that short scene where

01:43:42.640 --> 01:43:46.539
the Jews are in that little powwow in the Krakow

01:43:46.539 --> 01:43:48.020
ghetto and they're talking about how it's not

01:43:48.020 --> 01:43:50.119
actually so bad there? And it sort of reminds

01:43:50.119 --> 01:43:53.350
them of their ancestral squalor. And, like, no

01:43:53.350 --> 01:43:56.229
one envies us anymore and stuff like that. The

01:43:56.229 --> 01:43:58.789
ghetto is liberty, one of them says. Yeah, yeah.

01:43:59.250 --> 01:44:02.130
Right, yeah, really, like, complex. It's spiritually

01:44:02.130 --> 01:44:05.210
embedded in the Jew to feel like that's where

01:44:05.210 --> 01:44:08.409
they belong or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:44:08.649 --> 01:44:14.649
And it's so, I mean, yeah, it's just such a dark.

01:44:15.079 --> 01:44:22.279
of what Jewishness is. And I do think that, you

01:44:22.279 --> 01:44:26.239
know, people on all sides might benefit. And

01:44:26.239 --> 01:44:30.100
so, you know, you will 100 % see... like Jews

01:44:30.100 --> 01:44:32.380
who are materially and structurally benefiting

01:44:32.380 --> 01:44:35.720
from this, like really horrible mythos about

01:44:35.720 --> 01:44:38.500
the Jew that we're so detestable that like, we're

01:44:38.500 --> 01:44:40.779
not safe anywhere. So we need to have our own

01:44:40.779 --> 01:44:44.239
like nuclear backed army to keep us safe because

01:44:44.239 --> 01:44:46.939
that's like the only way that the world can actually

01:44:46.939 --> 01:44:49.899
be safe. And ironically, they have to commit

01:44:49.899 --> 01:44:51.779
their own ethnic cleansing from time to time.

01:44:51.779 --> 01:44:56.430
Right. Absolutely. And also generally benefit

01:44:56.430 --> 01:45:00.090
from international anti -Semitism. They're sort

01:45:00.090 --> 01:45:03.710
of like built such that the more anti -Semitism

01:45:03.710 --> 01:45:06.649
there is around the world, the more urgent the

01:45:06.649 --> 01:45:09.569
case for Israel becomes. And like states are

01:45:09.569 --> 01:45:12.050
the most unscrupulous actors known to nature.

01:45:12.170 --> 01:45:14.390
And so like they'll do anything. It doesn't matter.

01:45:14.470 --> 01:45:17.210
It's not specific to the nefarious Jewish state

01:45:17.210 --> 01:45:20.449
or Zionist state. That's just inherent to any

01:45:20.449 --> 01:45:22.260
state. We'll do whatever it can, whatever. whatever

01:45:22.260 --> 01:45:29.380
sort of obfuscation or propaganda or intrigue

01:45:29.380 --> 01:45:34.100
to cultivate its own necessity. And so, yeah,

01:45:34.260 --> 01:45:38.779
I mean, especially as a person who believes that...

01:45:39.079 --> 01:45:42.560
um that you know human beings like we live we

01:45:42.560 --> 01:45:45.000
are of this earth we live on this earth we cannot

01:45:45.000 --> 01:45:48.260
own land that makes no sense we have always been

01:45:48.260 --> 01:45:52.739
migratory there's no such thing as like the inherent

01:45:52.739 --> 01:45:55.239
connection between land and people if you take

01:45:55.239 --> 01:45:57.859
a large enough time scale if you take like a

01:45:57.859 --> 01:46:00.199
few thousand years sure maybe but like why not

01:46:00.199 --> 01:46:02.619
start where the human story actually begins a

01:46:02.619 --> 01:46:05.640
story of like people who move around a lot and

01:46:05.640 --> 01:46:09.710
the fact is like the wandering jew for me, reminds

01:46:09.710 --> 01:46:12.770
me that, like, as an archetype that I embody

01:46:12.770 --> 01:46:15.649
and resonate with, reminds me that, like, actually,

01:46:15.789 --> 01:46:19.409
like, I'm home everywhere and the true safe world

01:46:19.409 --> 01:46:22.649
for the Jew is a stateless world, one where we

01:46:22.649 --> 01:46:25.869
can just wander and be and be of in the ways

01:46:25.869 --> 01:46:29.729
that feel aligned and alive, as opposed to this,

01:46:29.810 --> 01:46:34.140
like, world of... rigid borders the and like

01:46:34.140 --> 01:46:36.880
sort of these dead these dead structure these

01:46:36.880 --> 01:46:39.319
structures that are dead to the vitality and

01:46:39.319 --> 01:46:43.819
the flow of ecosystem life um and so i find it

01:46:43.819 --> 01:46:47.340
yeah i mean i find the premise to be completely

01:46:47.340 --> 01:46:51.779
unbearable you know um so yeah anyway that's

01:46:51.779 --> 01:46:54.380
what i'll say about the i mean that i mean that

01:46:54.380 --> 01:46:58.409
rhymes a lot with like the the path of the average

01:46:58.409 --> 01:47:00.489
Jewish person during the Holocaust, because a

01:47:00.489 --> 01:47:02.090
lot of what they're doing is like what they've

01:47:02.090 --> 01:47:04.689
always done, which is just like negotiate and

01:47:04.689 --> 01:47:07.649
try and figure out like, you know, reasonable

01:47:07.649 --> 01:47:10.510
deals that can be made in order to like find

01:47:10.510 --> 01:47:13.789
some path towards safety. Right. And the idea

01:47:13.789 --> 01:47:16.949
that like that path towards safety is actually

01:47:16.949 --> 01:47:19.210
just leading them further and further into the

01:47:19.210 --> 01:47:23.029
jaws of death or whatever. It's like. That's

01:47:23.029 --> 01:47:25.569
like the biggest, most cruelest joke or whatever.

01:47:25.810 --> 01:47:28.229
Yeah. And I can't, and I can't. It's that then,

01:47:28.270 --> 01:47:30.890
and that the system is, that's what it does is

01:47:30.890 --> 01:47:33.279
that it's sort of like. promises you safety,

01:47:33.619 --> 01:47:36.760
but then like destroys all humanity and like

01:47:36.760 --> 01:47:39.159
vibrance in the process. Right. And that's, it's

01:47:39.159 --> 01:47:41.600
like a, and that's the contradiction one at the

01:47:41.600 --> 01:47:44.039
heart of capitalism. Of course, capitalism has

01:47:44.039 --> 01:47:46.979
its own destruction inherent in its DNA because

01:47:46.979 --> 01:47:49.460
of its need for infinite expansion on a finite

01:47:49.460 --> 01:47:52.079
earth will obviously eventually destroy itself.

01:47:52.340 --> 01:47:54.579
Well, I mean that, that I think is something

01:47:54.579 --> 01:47:56.079
that rhymes pretty well with Schindler though,

01:47:56.140 --> 01:47:58.800
too. Like he is that industrialist who's trying

01:47:58.800 --> 01:48:02.060
to build and build and build, but, I don't know,

01:48:02.079 --> 01:48:05.060
going back to the connection to, like, you know,

01:48:05.060 --> 01:48:07.960
between Schindler and Eichmann and Israel itself

01:48:07.960 --> 01:48:12.119
and these sort of people who make deals to save

01:48:12.119 --> 01:48:14.520
certain people and not other people and contribute

01:48:14.520 --> 01:48:17.420
to the machine in other ways and whatever. I

01:48:17.420 --> 01:48:19.079
think one of the scenes that's really interesting

01:48:19.079 --> 01:48:23.100
in Schindler's List is the scene at the hospital

01:48:23.100 --> 01:48:27.600
during the... Liquidation. Liquidation, yeah.

01:48:28.460 --> 01:48:32.000
Where what the doctors do is, yeah, they kill

01:48:32.000 --> 01:48:34.699
the patients through non -painful methods that

01:48:34.699 --> 01:48:37.479
they won't be shot. And that's a lot of what

01:48:37.479 --> 01:48:39.760
Eichmann kind of was trying to organize. You

01:48:39.760 --> 01:48:43.000
know what I mean? It's like... You know, if if

01:48:43.000 --> 01:48:44.840
what you're talking about is like, yeah, you're

01:48:44.840 --> 01:48:46.699
sending these people to their deaths or whatever.

01:48:46.819 --> 01:48:48.279
It's like, yeah, this is a horrible person. But

01:48:48.279 --> 01:48:50.420
like, are those two Jewish doctors horrible people?

01:48:50.479 --> 01:48:53.359
No, they're they're, you know, doing something

01:48:53.359 --> 01:48:55.840
horrible, like gassing people. But like in a

01:48:55.840 --> 01:48:57.760
situation where alternatively they're going to

01:48:57.760 --> 01:49:00.319
be shot to death or whatever. And that's that's

01:49:00.319 --> 01:49:02.600
like part of this. I don't know. I think it's

01:49:02.600 --> 01:49:05.890
interesting because like. Spielberg shows us

01:49:05.890 --> 01:49:10.189
all of these sort of negative attributes of all

01:49:10.189 --> 01:49:12.109
these people, whatever, but then he also motivates

01:49:12.109 --> 01:49:13.869
all of them and stuff. You know what I mean?

01:49:13.930 --> 01:49:19.310
Like there's some justification of things in

01:49:19.310 --> 01:49:21.909
this movie that like, I mean, not justification

01:49:21.909 --> 01:49:23.149
of the Holocaust or whatever, but justification

01:49:23.149 --> 01:49:27.869
of people's like inherent, like reactions in

01:49:27.869 --> 01:49:31.909
the moment or something that allows it to kind

01:49:31.909 --> 01:49:34.960
of be a more nuanced, kind of thing than just

01:49:34.960 --> 01:49:37.340
I don't know the straightforward like this guy

01:49:37.340 --> 01:49:39.460
was a racist and so he did all these things or

01:49:39.460 --> 01:49:42.159
Schindler was a great man and so he saved all

01:49:42.159 --> 01:49:44.420
these people like yeah I mean you're sort of

01:49:44.420 --> 01:49:46.579
in this position you're sort of in this position

01:49:46.579 --> 01:49:52.279
where like the inherent outcome um of the like

01:49:52.279 --> 01:49:56.159
once the terms are set It's just, like, so unfathomably

01:49:56.159 --> 01:49:58.760
destructive. Like, no matter what you do, how

01:49:58.760 --> 01:50:02.140
you try to save, you can't help but, like, bring

01:50:02.140 --> 01:50:05.960
about the apocalypse if these are the terms.

01:50:06.199 --> 01:50:07.720
If the wheels are in motion. If the wheels are

01:50:07.720 --> 01:50:09.979
in motion. The machine is running. And these

01:50:09.979 --> 01:50:13.760
are the terms. And the only thing that can save

01:50:13.760 --> 01:50:16.840
anyone is just, like, basically unconditional

01:50:16.840 --> 01:50:20.319
surrender. You know, that's what they're all

01:50:20.319 --> 01:50:23.770
sort of like. waiting for just biting the time

01:50:23.770 --> 01:50:27.989
for the clock to run out um and that's just um

01:50:27.989 --> 01:50:31.670
you know i mean it's kind of it's an unescapable

01:50:31.670 --> 01:50:35.170
metaphor for what's happening with the entire

01:50:35.170 --> 01:50:38.470
global system right now in terms of the whole

01:50:38.470 --> 01:50:41.949
thing being turned into a vision of this sort

01:50:41.949 --> 01:50:44.890
of like plantation economy this sort of slavery

01:50:44.890 --> 01:50:49.210
economy um just endless extraction for the benefit

01:50:49.210 --> 01:50:54.409
of these mutant freaks um and like you know em

01:50:54.409 --> 01:50:58.149
on goeth uh but You know, Amon Goeth to the end.

01:50:58.609 --> 01:51:00.810
Yeah, like, Amon Goeth, except maybe not as,

01:51:00.869 --> 01:51:02.770
like, overtly violent, but, like... You could

01:51:02.770 --> 01:51:04.890
also just say Schindler. Like, you know what

01:51:04.890 --> 01:51:06.630
I mean? Like, he's just, like, psyched to get,

01:51:06.729 --> 01:51:09.430
like... 12 secretaries that he can fuck like

01:51:09.430 --> 01:51:12.250
as often as he wants and like to get to take

01:51:12.250 --> 01:51:14.770
over this person's apartment who's like you know

01:51:14.770 --> 01:51:17.189
royalty jewish royalty but then you know they're

01:51:17.189 --> 01:51:19.149
out and he's like this is fucking nice you know

01:51:19.149 --> 01:51:21.130
let me get some like 18 year olds in here let

01:51:21.130 --> 01:51:23.649
me get some good caviar like this is where it's

01:51:23.649 --> 01:51:26.489
at yeah but you're we're still talking about

01:51:26.489 --> 01:51:29.229
schindler before he goes through his arc right

01:51:29.229 --> 01:51:32.989
exactly um but that's only it's only if you think

01:51:32.989 --> 01:51:36.340
he goes through the arc man Well, that's okay.

01:51:36.500 --> 01:51:39.159
That's what I'm trying to get to by teasing out

01:51:39.159 --> 01:51:41.359
the arc a little more, which is that Spielberg

01:51:41.359 --> 01:51:45.439
makes a decision to give Schindler an arc in

01:51:45.439 --> 01:51:49.119
this movie from someone who's motivated by capitalistic

01:51:49.119 --> 01:51:51.500
gain and fame or kind of just, you know, whatever,

01:51:51.699 --> 01:51:56.500
to someone who is actually going broke to save

01:51:56.500 --> 01:52:00.279
a bunch of Jews, like that he's obligated to

01:52:00.279 --> 01:52:02.340
do it for whatever reason. Or he's just buying

01:52:02.340 --> 01:52:06.020
his Oompa Loompas, dude. Like these people worked

01:52:06.020 --> 01:52:08.159
for him the rest of his life essentially through

01:52:08.159 --> 01:52:10.220
like charity and whatever and allowing him to

01:52:10.220 --> 01:52:14.119
exist with failing businesses. I mean I do think

01:52:14.119 --> 01:52:17.399
that that is a sort of – that's a very powerful

01:52:17.399 --> 01:52:22.859
interpretation of – a man who is like that sort

01:52:22.859 --> 01:52:25.420
of capable of reading the direction that the

01:52:25.420 --> 01:52:29.460
wind is blowing. And, um, and I do think, I mean,

01:52:29.500 --> 01:52:31.699
that, that, that's ultimately why, you know,

01:52:31.699 --> 01:52:34.020
it's a masterpiece is because I actually think

01:52:34.020 --> 01:52:37.579
it does beautifully hold that ambiguity. And

01:52:37.579 --> 01:52:40.699
there totally is like a modeling or, or, or,

01:52:40.699 --> 01:52:43.460
or sort of a more sentimental read where it's

01:52:43.460 --> 01:52:46.659
just like, Hey, you know, he did have this kind

01:52:46.659 --> 01:52:50.930
of awakening. And at the end of the day, why

01:52:50.930 --> 01:52:53.630
not both? Like, is it not the case that that's

01:52:53.630 --> 01:52:56.510
how life actually is that you have an awakening,

01:52:56.630 --> 01:52:59.529
but it's also opportunistic. You realize, Hmm,

01:52:59.630 --> 01:53:01.869
whatever it is, even if it's not like apocalyptic

01:53:01.869 --> 01:53:04.789
evil, it's just like, Oh, huh. I could do that.

01:53:04.829 --> 01:53:07.930
Wait a minute. Maybe that's who I am. And, and

01:53:07.930 --> 01:53:10.510
you're like, Oh, actually this is my place in

01:53:10.510 --> 01:53:12.810
the order of all things. This is, this is my

01:53:12.810 --> 01:53:16.020
destiny. This is my calling into. it comes from

01:53:16.020 --> 01:53:19.020
the same impulse, which is being a good listener

01:53:19.020 --> 01:53:21.680
for opportunity. And like in the, in the opening

01:53:21.680 --> 01:53:24.579
of the film, the opportunity was to make an enamelware

01:53:24.579 --> 01:53:27.020
factory with Jewish money and Jewish labor. And

01:53:27.020 --> 01:53:29.520
then by the end, the opportunity is to actually

01:53:29.520 --> 01:53:33.140
become this like eternal. for the Jews and be

01:53:33.140 --> 01:53:37.340
lionized for all of time. And that, like, that's

01:53:37.340 --> 01:53:40.060
a type of transformation as well that's facilitated

01:53:40.060 --> 01:53:42.720
by the same impulse into, like, intuitive listening.

01:53:42.880 --> 01:53:47.420
But ultimately, like, the where of the war, I

01:53:47.420 --> 01:53:51.159
think, can't be, you know, written off. Like,

01:53:51.159 --> 01:53:55.800
being with this degree of, like, pathological

01:53:55.800 --> 01:53:58.560
sickness, like so many people being murdered,

01:53:58.659 --> 01:54:01.979
having But undeniably, like, a real relationship

01:54:01.979 --> 01:54:04.920
with Itzhak Stern, who even if he is, like, a

01:54:04.920 --> 01:54:08.279
bit of an Eichmannoid, also is clearly someone

01:54:08.279 --> 01:54:11.140
who Oskar Schindler admires a lot because he

01:54:11.140 --> 01:54:13.159
can actually do shit. To a certain degree, yes.

01:54:13.239 --> 01:54:16.600
But also, like, he's not—the movie doesn't really

01:54:16.600 --> 01:54:19.039
tell us. And when he finally finds Itzhak Stern

01:54:19.039 --> 01:54:21.260
on the train, when he's like, he's on this train,

01:54:21.319 --> 01:54:23.239
I'm going to find him, he finds him, Stern comes

01:54:23.239 --> 01:54:26.000
out, he's just like— what if I had come here

01:54:26.000 --> 01:54:28.039
five minutes later? Then where would I be? Right.

01:54:28.600 --> 01:54:31.300
That's, he doesn't, I mean, you could say this

01:54:31.300 --> 01:54:34.479
is like, this is a buddy comedy, I mean, a buddy

01:54:34.479 --> 01:54:36.340
trope where it's like, oh, buddy, like, where

01:54:36.340 --> 01:54:38.560
would I be with that? Like, you know, don't kill

01:54:38.560 --> 01:54:40.199
yourself because then my life would be, it's

01:54:40.199 --> 01:54:42.539
like, no, but like, I think that the movie goes

01:54:42.539 --> 01:54:44.319
out of its way. That's another thing too, where

01:54:44.319 --> 01:54:47.760
in the book, Ixchak Stern just sees the good

01:54:47.760 --> 01:54:49.640
in Schindler right off the bat as well. And so

01:54:49.640 --> 01:54:51.539
he has an arc in the movie as well where he comes

01:54:51.539 --> 01:54:55.159
around. to seeing schindler as a good man yeah

01:54:55.159 --> 01:54:57.460
well he's indoctrinated the way that he eventually

01:54:57.460 --> 01:54:59.920
has the drink with like he by the end of this

01:54:59.920 --> 01:55:03.500
thing is willing to stand up for the idea like

01:55:03.500 --> 01:55:06.920
in spite of all of the like that he was like

01:55:06.920 --> 01:55:10.359
literally standing next to goeth and drinking

01:55:10.359 --> 01:55:12.859
with him every night and like hanging out with

01:55:12.859 --> 01:55:15.020
this guy who was like joyfully killing all these

01:55:15.020 --> 01:55:17.880
women all over the place like and we don't see

01:55:17.880 --> 01:55:20.619
him I mean, there's a little bit of, like, yeah,

01:55:20.659 --> 01:55:22.340
well, what if you tried and, like, not shoot

01:55:22.340 --> 01:55:24.939
them? And, you know, he tries and whatever. But

01:55:24.939 --> 01:55:29.039
there's not much the movie gives us of Schindler

01:55:29.039 --> 01:55:31.359
being upset. Yeah, he tries to suggest he doesn't

01:55:31.359 --> 01:55:34.319
shoot them. He, like, he makes them water the

01:55:34.319 --> 01:55:36.880
train cars so that they get drinks. Yeah, yeah.

01:55:36.920 --> 01:55:39.699
Even though Amon says that's even more cruel.

01:55:39.840 --> 01:55:42.600
Right. Yeah. Giving them hope. Yeah, totally.

01:55:43.149 --> 01:55:44.989
Totally. Giving him hope. Exactly. But it's a

01:55:44.989 --> 01:55:48.850
thing. Smashing him to pieces. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

01:55:48.850 --> 01:55:51.289
No, they, yeah, there is, there is, they, they

01:55:51.289 --> 01:55:55.529
really do such a great job. The film does such

01:55:55.529 --> 01:55:59.539
a great job of like. making this atrocity feel

01:55:59.539 --> 01:56:03.000
like so banal in certain moments there there's

01:56:03.000 --> 01:56:05.619
at one moment the like a high -ranking nazi i

01:56:05.619 --> 01:56:07.460
can't remember his name but he says like you

01:56:07.460 --> 01:56:09.340
know that the jews don't have a future here it's

01:56:09.340 --> 01:56:11.000
no longer that's no longer just like phoning

01:56:11.000 --> 01:56:13.699
mouth anti -semitism like that's policy and just

01:56:13.699 --> 01:56:16.319
like the way in which that line is like calmly

01:56:16.319 --> 01:56:19.420
delivered as like this is just like this is just

01:56:19.420 --> 01:56:23.060
the inherent certainty of the death machine is

01:56:23.060 --> 01:56:28.569
um I do think it's masterful. Well, that's why

01:56:28.569 --> 01:56:31.550
there's so many mentions of lists and paperwork

01:56:31.550 --> 01:56:34.489
all over the place in the movie, too. Because

01:56:34.489 --> 01:56:40.109
when he goes to find Stern on the train, they're

01:56:40.109 --> 01:56:41.710
just like, well, he's on the list, and the list

01:56:41.710 --> 01:56:45.770
is ironclad and whatever. And when he gets Stern

01:56:45.770 --> 01:56:48.310
out of there, they're just like, you know, it

01:56:48.310 --> 01:56:50.630
doesn't really matter who he is, what Jew he

01:56:50.630 --> 01:56:52.270
is. It's just like an inconvenience to the list.

01:56:52.329 --> 01:56:54.210
It's the paperwork. Right. And then there's like

01:56:54.210 --> 01:56:57.350
the scene where Amon is describing just like,

01:56:57.369 --> 01:56:59.350
do you know how annoying it is to set up a concentration

01:56:59.350 --> 01:57:02.630
camp? Just like all the paperwork and just bringing

01:57:02.630 --> 01:57:04.369
in the engineers and like all this stuff. He's

01:57:04.369 --> 01:57:08.329
just like 25 miles of barbed wire fence and just

01:57:08.329 --> 01:57:10.189
like he's just going on and on and on or whatever.

01:57:11.869 --> 01:57:14.149
There's so many moments like that in the movie.

01:57:14.470 --> 01:57:17.569
And then the Jews sort of like sorting out all

01:57:17.569 --> 01:57:20.960
the treasures. Right. And stuff like that. There's

01:57:20.960 --> 01:57:23.380
just such a like bureaucratic banality to the

01:57:23.380 --> 01:57:25.020
way all of it's happened. A hundred percent.

01:57:25.060 --> 01:57:27.680
And that's like what the movie is expressing.

01:57:27.760 --> 01:57:30.739
It's not expressing like, again, yeah, you see

01:57:30.739 --> 01:57:33.380
murders, you see, you see individual pathology.

01:57:33.439 --> 01:57:35.619
I mean, you have Amon Goeth, you have a lot of

01:57:35.619 --> 01:57:38.819
like. Amon Goeth, the like frontline guy who

01:57:38.819 --> 01:57:40.760
has been like surrounded by this real violence

01:57:40.760 --> 01:57:42.800
to a level where he's not talking about Eichmann

01:57:42.800 --> 01:57:45.100
anymore. He's like a different type of Nazi.

01:57:45.159 --> 01:57:47.640
Oh, totally. Yeah. He's a freak. He's a freak.

01:57:47.680 --> 01:57:50.039
But like, there are probably lots of, russian

01:57:50.039 --> 01:57:51.760
freaks on the ost front too and they're probably

01:57:51.760 --> 01:57:54.500
a bunch of american freaks on the front too just

01:57:54.500 --> 01:57:57.079
like being a young man and they're young fucking

01:57:57.079 --> 01:57:59.199
men they don't know shit that you put you put

01:57:59.199 --> 01:58:01.539
a gun in their hands and like this is just what

01:58:01.539 --> 01:58:03.920
happens after enough years of war it's like he

01:58:03.920 --> 01:58:06.760
almost has less to do with like nazism or anything

01:58:06.760 --> 01:58:08.720
in particular as he just has to do with like

01:58:08.720 --> 01:58:11.880
the spirit of the war machine like yeah the thing

01:58:11.880 --> 01:58:14.739
that inhabits people since the beginning of time

01:58:14.739 --> 01:58:17.079
at the front lines this demon that turns them

01:58:17.079 --> 01:58:18.779
like you know i mean that sort of thing yeah

01:58:19.390 --> 01:58:21.890
Yeah. Well, he's also like, he's frivolous and

01:58:21.890 --> 01:58:25.170
he's like, he's like Schindler in a lot of ways

01:58:25.170 --> 01:58:27.090
that he just likes the spoils. He likes women.

01:58:27.170 --> 01:58:29.149
He likes drinking. He likes having a good time

01:58:29.149 --> 01:58:31.529
and all this sort of stuff. He likes being rich

01:58:31.529 --> 01:58:33.689
and he likes the money. But, but, but he's not

01:58:33.689 --> 01:58:36.310
smart, but he, but he's undeniably. Yeah. Yeah.

01:58:36.390 --> 01:58:38.789
Less intelligent. But that main difference between

01:58:38.789 --> 01:58:41.449
them about what they think power is, you know?

01:58:41.449 --> 01:58:44.109
Yeah. And he, and there's just no question that

01:58:44.109 --> 01:58:48.800
he is just like boorish. and nowhere near as

01:58:48.800 --> 01:58:53.020
like subtle and refined as Oskar Schindler is,

01:58:53.140 --> 01:58:55.300
which I think is like, you know, an appropriate

01:58:55.300 --> 01:59:00.140
expression of what Nazism really did, what it

01:59:00.140 --> 01:59:07.060
was based upon was this kind of like this brash

01:59:07.060 --> 01:59:12.199
sort of capitalizing on this political cohort

01:59:12.199 --> 01:59:18.560
of sort of like brash like loud young men who

01:59:18.560 --> 01:59:20.779
like were like determined like like they weren't

01:59:20.779 --> 01:59:23.579
pretty they were rough around the edges but they

01:59:23.579 --> 01:59:25.319
were like they would get they would kick the

01:59:25.319 --> 01:59:28.779
doors down of like corrupt jewelry and they would

01:59:28.779 --> 01:59:31.880
like get the country back on track by being like

01:59:31.880 --> 01:59:36.800
action oriented as opposed to more kind of you

01:59:36.800 --> 01:59:40.569
know thoughtful and subtle And I do think that

01:59:40.569 --> 01:59:45.890
Oskar Schindler represents the subtler mind of

01:59:45.890 --> 01:59:49.170
the German industrialist who like comes to understand

01:59:49.170 --> 01:59:53.270
actually this Nazism thing is really economically

01:59:53.270 --> 01:59:55.710
valuable, like economically and politically valuable.

01:59:58.539 --> 02:00:01.859
at this moment and is willing to work alongside

02:00:01.859 --> 02:00:04.779
it for the common ends of like, you know, the

02:00:04.779 --> 02:00:08.319
spoils of war basically. But there's always a

02:00:08.319 --> 02:00:12.560
disjunction in the Reich between like the frontline

02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:15.619
Nazi fanatics who are just these like, yeah,

02:00:15.680 --> 02:00:17.720
they're fucking, they're bored. They're kind

02:00:17.720 --> 02:00:20.760
of just like, yeah, they're dumb and they're

02:00:20.760 --> 02:00:24.039
racist and they're super aggressive. Um, and,

02:00:24.079 --> 02:00:26.619
uh, and the, the power structure that sees them

02:00:26.619 --> 02:00:30.829
as, ultimately politically expedient in terms

02:00:30.829 --> 02:00:33.470
of first getting rid of getting rid of the communists

02:00:33.470 --> 02:00:36.649
but then also just creating wartime economy that

02:00:36.649 --> 02:00:41.149
is so conducive to like you know uh insane uh

02:00:41.149 --> 02:00:45.270
yeah privateers but also the secrecy of the final

02:00:45.270 --> 02:00:47.449
solution and how kind of like it didn't become

02:00:47.449 --> 02:00:52.090
policy until way later, like way after ghettos

02:00:52.090 --> 02:00:54.949
were being formed. It was a slow burn. I guess

02:00:54.949 --> 02:00:57.050
we're talking it's like six years or something,

02:00:57.130 --> 02:00:59.569
but it's still kind of a slow burn. It was done

02:00:59.569 --> 02:01:01.770
incrementally. It's incremental adjustments.

02:01:02.069 --> 02:01:05.189
Done incrementally. It's like the frog that boils

02:01:05.189 --> 02:01:07.710
or something. But apparently it isn't true. I

02:01:07.710 --> 02:01:08.609
think frogs get out of the woods. So I think

02:01:08.609 --> 02:01:10.890
part of it is Schindler just doesn't, like everybody

02:01:10.890 --> 02:01:13.270
else, understand the magnitude of what's actually

02:01:13.270 --> 02:01:15.810
happening yet. And as the movie goes on, he,

02:01:15.949 --> 02:01:19.819
I think, he does realize the cruelty. He does

02:01:19.819 --> 02:01:23.220
realize just how far they're willing to go and

02:01:23.220 --> 02:01:24.819
all this kind of stuff and that he really is,

02:01:24.819 --> 02:01:26.939
like, saving these people by having them work

02:01:26.939 --> 02:01:29.279
at the factory when that wasn't really a concern

02:01:29.279 --> 02:01:30.760
before. He was just trying to get cheap labor.

02:01:30.899 --> 02:01:34.159
Right. You know? Right. Why would I hire Poles?

02:01:34.159 --> 02:01:36.779
They're more expensive. Right. That's the only

02:01:36.779 --> 02:01:39.359
justification is a capitalist justification,

02:01:39.899 --> 02:01:44.539
neoliberal justification. But his transition

02:01:44.539 --> 02:01:48.449
happens because, like, Regina Perlman comes and,

02:01:48.449 --> 02:01:51.630
like, asks for him to get her parents into the

02:01:51.630 --> 02:01:54.590
factory. And, like, he kind of yells at her.

02:01:54.649 --> 02:01:56.029
He's like, it's not what I do. He's like, you

02:01:56.029 --> 02:01:58.350
won't entrap me and all this stuff. And then

02:01:58.350 --> 02:02:00.470
the next scene, he's, like, complaining to Stern

02:02:00.470 --> 02:02:02.229
about, like, they're saying it's a haven. No,

02:02:02.329 --> 02:02:04.130
it's not an enterprise or whatever. So he's like,

02:02:04.229 --> 02:02:06.409
this is the part where he sort of, like, goes

02:02:06.409 --> 02:02:08.390
through transition because he actually defends

02:02:08.390 --> 02:02:11.609
Goth. Yeah. He, like, defends Goth as someone

02:02:11.609 --> 02:02:13.569
who wouldn't be this bad in normal civilized

02:02:13.569 --> 02:02:16.800
society. And that, like, it's all just circumstance

02:02:16.800 --> 02:02:19.579
and stuff. And I think that gets to the core

02:02:19.579 --> 02:02:22.579
of it. It's just, like, the idea that it's just

02:02:22.579 --> 02:02:24.960
convenient for Oscar to start doing that at that

02:02:24.960 --> 02:02:26.720
point. He's like, wait, if this is what this

02:02:26.720 --> 02:02:28.439
is, if this is the haven for these Jews, and

02:02:28.439 --> 02:02:30.579
that's, like, what's coming naturally, and this

02:02:30.579 --> 02:02:32.239
is just what's working out, I am in the position

02:02:32.239 --> 02:02:34.800
where I can do this. I didn't, like, try to get

02:02:34.800 --> 02:02:36.539
into this position. I didn't ask for this, but

02:02:36.539 --> 02:02:38.760
I'm here, so I guess I'm going to make this decision.

02:02:39.399 --> 02:02:41.840
And that decision, once he sees the writing on

02:02:41.840 --> 02:02:45.359
the wall of the cruelty... of Amon and the whole

02:02:45.359 --> 02:02:47.659
entire Nazi regime, he sees the writing on the

02:02:47.659 --> 02:02:49.760
wall on that point and knows that, oh, this money

02:02:49.760 --> 02:02:53.279
is going to be worthless and it would be more

02:02:53.279 --> 02:02:57.520
convenient to invest in this human labor and

02:02:57.520 --> 02:03:00.020
I'll buy all this good faith. You know what I

02:03:00.020 --> 02:03:01.640
mean? It's already been brought up before how

02:03:01.640 --> 02:03:03.819
much good faith came to Schindler because of

02:03:03.819 --> 02:03:06.979
these decisions. And how he's protected from

02:03:06.979 --> 02:03:09.439
the gallows for being a Nazi collaborator and

02:03:09.439 --> 02:03:11.899
whatever. Right. And it's the only currency that

02:03:11.899 --> 02:03:15.300
survives being taken over by the West. Yeah.

02:03:15.899 --> 02:03:19.659
Is like the goodwill. He specifically tells Rudolf

02:03:19.659 --> 02:03:21.880
Haas after giving him diamonds, we're all going

02:03:21.880 --> 02:03:24.119
to need portable wealth. Yeah. I mean, and that's

02:03:24.119 --> 02:03:25.840
and it's the same with the earlier conversation

02:03:25.840 --> 02:03:28.880
about no money isn't money anymore. I think there's

02:03:28.880 --> 02:03:31.899
a lot in this movie about I mean, there's specifically

02:03:31.899 --> 02:03:34.539
like on the on the Nazi side of things. There's

02:03:34.539 --> 02:03:36.659
the transference of people into wealth, the concentration

02:03:36.659 --> 02:03:39.319
of this wealth from, you know, like all the teeth.

02:03:39.479 --> 02:03:42.619
Yeah. I mean, the gold, whatever it is. but it's

02:03:42.619 --> 02:03:45.399
also the transfer of wealth into people. This

02:03:45.399 --> 02:03:47.319
watch could have gotten another thing. Yeah,

02:03:47.380 --> 02:03:50.800
that's super deep. I like to think of this movie

02:03:50.800 --> 02:03:52.880
as, like we were talking about Ikemen in Jerusalem,

02:03:53.079 --> 02:03:56.880
I think of this as Schindler's List, a report

02:03:56.880 --> 02:04:01.539
on the banality of good and evil. These are both

02:04:01.539 --> 02:04:08.840
motivated by the same things and stuff. The saving

02:04:08.840 --> 02:04:11.260
of these Jews is very similar to the accumulation

02:04:11.260 --> 02:04:13.279
of this wealth through like the cooperation.

02:04:13.500 --> 02:04:15.819
Like, you know what I mean? But just to, to,

02:04:15.819 --> 02:04:17.819
to, and there is some good being done there.

02:04:17.880 --> 02:04:20.180
There is. Well, but at the end of the day, like

02:04:20.180 --> 02:04:23.380
if the ultimate takeaway of the movie, if, if

02:04:23.380 --> 02:04:26.359
Schindler's like moment of revelation, um, where

02:04:26.359 --> 02:04:31.180
he is saved to history, um, is realizing actually

02:04:31.180 --> 02:04:35.220
like it's not simply that these are interchangeable

02:04:35.220 --> 02:04:39.420
forms of wealth, like the Reichsmarks versus

02:04:39.420 --> 02:04:41.880
like Jewish goodwill, Jewish lives. It's not

02:04:41.880 --> 02:04:43.880
simply that they're interchangeable. It's that

02:04:43.880 --> 02:04:47.220
one is actually supreme. And that, and that like

02:04:47.220 --> 02:04:51.180
goodwill is actually the ultimate currency of

02:04:51.180 --> 02:04:54.020
history. And it's the ultimate currency of transformation

02:04:54.020 --> 02:04:58.859
and good and life on planet earth. And that actually

02:04:58.859 --> 02:05:01.659
the Reichsmark is like so many other things,

02:05:01.739 --> 02:05:05.760
just like a passing thing coming and going. But,

02:05:05.840 --> 02:05:09.039
but like eternity, the currency of eternity is

02:05:09.039 --> 02:05:12.159
goodwill. And that's, that's not actually a cynical

02:05:12.159 --> 02:05:15.210
message. No, I feel that. That's, that's. in

02:05:15.210 --> 02:05:17.029
a way a hopeful message. And if that's your takeaway,

02:05:17.149 --> 02:05:19.529
it's like boys and girls make sure to be good

02:05:19.529 --> 02:05:21.789
because your money's actually no good in the

02:05:21.789 --> 02:05:24.569
longterm. What's actually good is like getting,

02:05:24.649 --> 02:05:26.569
you know, getting like incurring the goodwill

02:05:26.569 --> 02:05:29.510
of humanity, you know, or, or the juice of the

02:05:29.510 --> 02:05:35.449
juice. I absolutely agree. I think like, um,

02:05:35.569 --> 02:05:38.680
Steven Spielberg is a. I feel like he's an earnest

02:05:38.680 --> 02:05:42.319
filmmaker, and he has a heart. He's not a complete

02:05:42.319 --> 02:05:46.520
cynical filmmaker, but I do think he's more intelligent

02:05:46.520 --> 02:05:50.000
than... The people who complain about this movie's

02:05:50.000 --> 02:05:52.819
sentimentality aren't really seeing that there

02:05:52.819 --> 02:05:54.739
are all these other intellectual levels to it

02:05:54.739 --> 02:05:58.000
that call just a little bit of question and nuance

02:05:58.000 --> 02:06:00.220
to the way it's being presented to you and stuff

02:06:00.220 --> 02:06:03.199
like that. I think, like you said before, it

02:06:03.199 --> 02:06:07.050
is a both -and, where Chandler... can both be

02:06:07.050 --> 02:06:10.189
like doing this thing of goodwill that is beautiful,

02:06:10.310 --> 02:06:13.369
but that it's also sort of making the, the, the

02:06:13.369 --> 02:06:16.029
banality of good, uh, argument that like, well,

02:06:16.090 --> 02:06:17.550
it's just kind of because he was in the position

02:06:17.550 --> 02:06:19.789
to do so. He had to, in order to survive, like,

02:06:19.930 --> 02:06:23.210
you know, and that, that led him to doing really

02:06:23.210 --> 02:06:24.750
bad things. And that led him to doing really

02:06:24.750 --> 02:06:27.229
good things. And it's led him on Goeth to do

02:06:27.229 --> 02:06:29.069
bad things. And it's led his extern to think

02:06:29.069 --> 02:06:30.750
he was doing a bad thing, but it turns out he

02:06:30.750 --> 02:06:33.470
was doing a good thing. Like, but these are all

02:06:33.470 --> 02:06:36.670
people who are just sort of like, The kind of

02:06:36.670 --> 02:06:39.010
depictions of the banality of evil like or just

02:06:39.010 --> 02:06:41.329
banality in general like because Oscar Schindler

02:06:41.329 --> 02:06:44.829
or it's extern specifically like he thinks he

02:06:44.829 --> 02:06:48.229
is selling out the Jews to Oscar Schindler for

02:06:48.229 --> 02:06:51.689
most of the movie. I mean, he says later in the

02:06:51.689 --> 02:06:53.710
movie, I know the destination. I have to help

02:06:53.710 --> 02:06:55.810
organize the shipments and put myself on the

02:06:55.810 --> 02:06:58.229
last train. Right. Yeah, he knows what's going

02:06:58.229 --> 02:07:00.489
on. I mean, that's that's like, you know what

02:07:00.489 --> 02:07:04.479
I mean? Almost. Yeah. That's true banality. But

02:07:04.479 --> 02:07:06.479
then it turns out that it happens to be for a

02:07:06.479 --> 02:07:08.180
good cause, to save these people. And it's kind

02:07:08.180 --> 02:07:10.000
of the same with all of Schindler's Motivation.

02:07:10.079 --> 02:07:13.659
But I would say it does produce real good that

02:07:13.659 --> 02:07:15.279
lasts for generations and that sort of thing.

02:07:15.319 --> 02:07:17.880
There is something superior to that type of wealth

02:07:17.880 --> 02:07:20.520
accumulation as opposed to the accumulation of

02:07:20.520 --> 02:07:23.300
Reichsmarks or whatever. That's the difference

02:07:23.300 --> 02:07:25.199
between Schindler and Amon. That's the difference

02:07:25.199 --> 02:07:26.180
between Schindler and Amon. And the difference

02:07:26.180 --> 02:07:27.979
in power. That's the difference. Yeah, exactly.

02:07:28.100 --> 02:07:30.380
That's the difference between a hero's journey

02:07:30.380 --> 02:07:33.840
and like a villain's descent into... ignominy

02:07:33.840 --> 02:07:36.300
you know what i mean it's like i think that spielberg

02:07:36.300 --> 02:07:38.699
chooses to have his final like breakdown situation

02:07:38.699 --> 02:07:42.720
happen in a way where like he describes everything

02:07:42.720 --> 02:07:46.039
in purely economic terms yeah like he's like

02:07:46.039 --> 02:07:48.420
he the whole breakdown is like it's kind of a

02:07:48.420 --> 02:07:50.420
beautiful scene that gets you worked up and makes

02:07:50.420 --> 02:07:53.439
you you know it's it's a tearjerker but it's

02:07:53.439 --> 02:07:57.180
almost like comedically satirically like just

02:07:57.180 --> 02:08:00.539
on like people as commodities like my watch is

02:08:00.539 --> 02:08:03.359
worth it is worth five jews exactly like it is

02:08:03.359 --> 02:08:05.920
almost comedic it's it's horrible and he's finding

02:08:05.920 --> 02:08:07.899
the irony in that and just seeing all that whatever

02:08:07.899 --> 02:08:10.899
but like it's also just like this is as far as

02:08:10.899 --> 02:08:13.640
his mind can go almost or it's like he's just

02:08:13.640 --> 02:08:15.600
like no but they're commodities they're just

02:08:15.600 --> 02:08:17.279
like all the other commodities that i've been

02:08:17.279 --> 02:08:19.500
like and i could have traded this for that and

02:08:19.500 --> 02:08:20.800
this would have been a good deal i missed out

02:08:20.800 --> 02:08:22.739
on a fucking good deal you're you're so you're

02:08:22.739 --> 02:08:25.579
so he's upset that he's missing out on a good

02:08:25.579 --> 02:08:27.970
deal yeah I also like that right before that

02:08:27.970 --> 02:08:29.989
he admits to being a criminal to all of them.

02:08:30.090 --> 02:08:31.750
And that he's going to have to flee. And then

02:08:31.750 --> 02:08:33.869
he gives the soldiers an opportunity to kill

02:08:33.869 --> 02:08:39.770
the Jews. It's crazy. But he's like, or you could

02:08:39.770 --> 02:08:40.850
go home as men and not murderers. That's a really

02:08:40.850 --> 02:08:43.989
different ending to this movie. Yeah. He's just

02:08:43.989 --> 02:08:46.729
like, guys, go ahead if you want to. And they

02:08:46.729 --> 02:08:48.069
just kill them all. It's like, Jesus Christ.

02:08:48.350 --> 02:08:52.300
Yeah. bluffing guys yeah yeah really really playing

02:08:52.300 --> 02:08:54.979
with fire there dude oh right 100 you probably

02:08:54.979 --> 02:08:57.140
would have been like you need to get me 500 you

02:08:57.140 --> 02:08:59.479
gotta replace those jews yeah yeah because i

02:08:59.479 --> 02:09:01.520
can save those yeah yeah exactly because this

02:09:01.520 --> 02:09:04.399
goodwill stock is that's going i got you gotta

02:09:04.399 --> 02:09:09.449
buy now no no i mean i I totally acknowledge

02:09:09.449 --> 02:09:13.010
that dimension and especially the parallelism

02:09:13.010 --> 02:09:15.550
with the golden teeth, like the gold teeth earlier

02:09:15.550 --> 02:09:19.590
in the movie. And this idea of gold and Jewish

02:09:19.590 --> 02:09:22.569
life and money and the Holocaust and all this,

02:09:22.729 --> 02:09:28.989
that alchemy. And I... Yeah, 100%. That ambiguity

02:09:28.989 --> 02:09:31.869
is there. That conversation has to be there.

02:09:32.010 --> 02:09:35.430
This is like an incredibly... Well, it's an incredibly...

02:09:35.979 --> 02:09:38.100
deep and subtle masterwork but it's also about

02:09:38.100 --> 02:09:41.420
like the most important and confounding questions

02:09:41.420 --> 02:09:44.779
in human affairs which is the question yeah like

02:09:44.779 --> 02:09:47.819
this question of like economy versus human life

02:09:47.819 --> 02:09:50.600
and how do we come to terms how do we how do

02:09:50.600 --> 02:09:53.319
we hope to understand the scope of these horrors

02:09:53.319 --> 02:09:57.279
that have been perpetrated um you know and that

02:09:57.279 --> 02:09:59.380
just seemed to be like what the moral reality

02:09:59.380 --> 02:10:02.140
is of anything. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

02:10:02.359 --> 02:10:05.439
And so to really like honestly ask that question

02:10:05.439 --> 02:10:08.260
to just have that revelation around like gold

02:10:08.260 --> 02:10:11.939
and like Jewish life. It doesn't necessarily

02:10:11.939 --> 02:10:15.859
mean that it's not genuine, but that it's just

02:10:15.859 --> 02:10:18.920
both. It's just all of the things. It is, like,

02:10:18.920 --> 02:10:21.079
genuine, but it's also, like, it ultimately,

02:10:21.159 --> 02:10:25.979
like, betrays this really sick world order, which,

02:10:26.079 --> 02:10:28.460
like, you know, continues to be fucking sick.

02:10:28.619 --> 02:10:32.789
You know, the war never ended. The war never

02:10:32.789 --> 02:10:35.989
ended. I mean, the Nazis as an ideology were

02:10:35.989 --> 02:10:38.449
like officially defeated, but it continues. They

02:10:38.449 --> 02:10:40.130
just moved over to NASA, dude. Yeah, they just

02:10:40.130 --> 02:10:41.810
moved to fucking NASA. They just started their

02:10:41.810 --> 02:10:44.029
new techno -utopian ideal, like, you know what

02:10:44.029 --> 02:10:46.350
I mean? It was slightly less racist, I guess,

02:10:46.390 --> 02:10:48.989
but it's the same. Yeah, but then honestly, like

02:10:48.989 --> 02:10:52.649
a lot of the neo -Nazis in Latin America that

02:10:52.649 --> 02:10:54.710
the U .S. Empire was supporting throughout, and

02:10:54.710 --> 02:10:56.550
it continues to basically support until this

02:10:56.550 --> 02:11:01.699
day, but throughout the 70s, 60s, 70s, 80s. 90s

02:11:01.699 --> 02:11:05.399
the dirty wars are like i remember some there

02:11:05.399 --> 02:11:08.899
was some like ex -cia official who had like you

02:11:08.899 --> 02:11:11.819
know a come to jesus moment um who said something

02:11:11.819 --> 02:11:15.159
like if you were an alien species examining the

02:11:15.159 --> 02:11:17.699
world in the 1980s and you like saw what was

02:11:17.699 --> 02:11:20.000
going on in latin america you naturally would

02:11:20.000 --> 02:11:21.699
have thought that the nazis won world war ii

02:11:21.699 --> 02:11:23.439
right like that would have been the inescapable

02:11:23.439 --> 02:11:26.819
conclusion um and and you know in the end like

02:11:26.819 --> 02:11:30.850
um it was just kind of it was Like, supremacist

02:11:30.850 --> 02:11:33.729
oligarchic infighting is really what it was.

02:11:33.909 --> 02:11:36.430
I mean, and also the Brits were the quote -unquote

02:11:36.430 --> 02:11:39.270
victors of World War II. And at the time, they

02:11:39.270 --> 02:11:41.270
were committing this, like, unimaginable atrocity

02:11:41.270 --> 02:11:44.109
in Bengal. And, like, the forced famine killed

02:11:44.109 --> 02:11:46.489
millions of Indian people. I mean, it's always

02:11:46.489 --> 02:11:49.369
been fake, man. The narrative that the Allies

02:11:49.369 --> 02:11:51.369
were just the good ones and the Reich were the

02:11:51.369 --> 02:11:53.590
bad ones. And, like, all this stuff is just bullshit.

02:11:53.750 --> 02:11:56.510
And that's the whole thing of, like, going back

02:11:56.510 --> 02:11:59.850
to just, like, the stuff in Oppenheimer and this

02:11:59.850 --> 02:12:03.649
whole idea of the narrative and of the historical

02:12:03.649 --> 02:12:08.829
record and what's left behind, I think Spielberg's

02:12:08.829 --> 02:12:11.569
movie does a really interesting job at calling

02:12:11.569 --> 02:12:14.390
attention to that because of the way it treats

02:12:14.390 --> 02:12:18.029
the source material, which... claims to be some

02:12:18.029 --> 02:12:20.270
kind of accurate account of Schindler's life,

02:12:20.430 --> 02:12:22.010
even though it probably isn't. It's probably

02:12:22.010 --> 02:12:24.289
more like a piece of propaganda. Right, right.

02:12:24.449 --> 02:12:26.189
And then it's all kind of like, do we even really

02:12:26.189 --> 02:12:29.250
know this true story of Schindler? Because apparently

02:12:29.250 --> 02:12:32.149
in historical records, Schindler had nothing

02:12:32.149 --> 02:12:34.470
to do with the list at all. So the entire thing

02:12:34.470 --> 02:12:37.649
is kind of just like a weird made -up fantasy,

02:12:37.869 --> 02:12:40.630
maybe. You know what I mean? No one really knows.

02:12:41.510 --> 02:12:43.729
Like, Goldberg is the one who wrote the list.

02:12:44.069 --> 02:12:47.119
It was Goldberg's list? It was Goldberg's list.

02:12:47.220 --> 02:12:50.800
Goldberg and Stern and someone else are the ones

02:12:50.800 --> 02:12:53.300
who wrote it. Stern did write the list in the

02:12:53.300 --> 02:12:58.520
movie. The idea that there was Schindler standing

02:12:58.520 --> 02:13:01.020
there remembering all the names of his Jews and

02:13:01.020 --> 02:13:06.060
making the list is a fantasy. Stern grabbed all

02:13:06.060 --> 02:13:08.819
the Jews in the first place in the movie. He

02:13:08.819 --> 02:13:12.399
got the ones at the beginning. And I guess, like,

02:13:12.500 --> 02:13:14.960
the whole last thing where, like, the girls go

02:13:14.960 --> 02:13:16.960
to Auschwitz and he saves them, too, is, like,

02:13:17.020 --> 02:13:19.359
that is another moment that, like, adds more

02:13:19.359 --> 02:13:24.479
complexity because he really is trying to get

02:13:24.479 --> 02:13:27.380
those specific girls. And that's why he says

02:13:27.380 --> 02:13:28.840
you shouldn't get hung up on names or whatever.

02:13:28.979 --> 02:13:31.239
It's, like, he offers him, like, a whole other

02:13:31.239 --> 02:13:33.399
train car of Jews. Like, he could have just saved,

02:13:33.460 --> 02:13:37.550
like, the exact amount, if not more people. but

02:13:37.550 --> 02:13:40.949
he just wants his Jews. Right, exactly. And then

02:13:40.949 --> 02:13:43.909
Haas says that's going to be a lot of paperwork.

02:13:44.800 --> 02:13:47.840
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. It is kind of funny

02:13:47.840 --> 02:13:50.659
that it's like, I think it was Kubrick. Kubrick

02:13:50.659 --> 02:13:52.439
said something about this movie. It's like, dude,

02:13:52.520 --> 02:13:54.680
no, like you think this movie is about the Holocaust?

02:13:55.039 --> 02:13:57.380
Like the Holocaust is about success is about,

02:13:57.380 --> 02:14:00.880
is about like 6 million people who died. Like

02:14:00.880 --> 02:14:02.579
Schindler's List is about like 600 people who

02:14:02.579 --> 02:14:05.600
didn't, you know? Right. And, and, and, and I

02:14:05.600 --> 02:14:11.880
do feel that, that that is like this, this crazy

02:14:11.880 --> 02:14:16.909
backdrop to the movie. That is that is also definitely

02:14:16.909 --> 02:14:20.569
reminiscent of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate

02:14:20.569 --> 02:14:23.949
Factory. This feeling that like these were the

02:14:23.949 --> 02:14:28.340
chosen ones, but like. just unfathomable numbers

02:14:28.340 --> 02:14:30.819
who are just passed over unfathomable numbers

02:14:30.819 --> 02:14:33.760
who like didn't get chosen by, by, by, by this

02:14:33.760 --> 02:14:36.619
Moses. Um, and it's the same as Charlie bucket.

02:14:36.720 --> 02:14:39.500
Who's like, happens to be, you know, the, like

02:14:39.500 --> 02:14:42.140
the lucky one who gets saved from like grinding

02:14:42.140 --> 02:14:45.659
poverty, but like, and so he loves Wonka, right?

02:14:45.720 --> 02:14:47.899
Yeah. And so he loves Wonka. And so he loves

02:14:47.899 --> 02:14:50.460
Wonka. Even though the other seven got murdered

02:14:50.460 --> 02:14:52.140
in front of him. Right. That's why the ending

02:14:52.140 --> 02:14:55.289
of she knows this is even more. Is he like, The

02:14:55.289 --> 02:14:57.069
ending of Chandler's List is kind of comical

02:14:57.069 --> 02:14:59.090
as well when he actually has the real survivors

02:14:59.090 --> 02:15:01.350
put all those rocks on his grave because it's

02:15:01.350 --> 02:15:06.489
such an over -sentimental procession. And then

02:15:06.489 --> 02:15:10.449
the very last thing it says in text is, in memory

02:15:10.449 --> 02:15:14.460
of the six million Jews that died. Right. It

02:15:14.460 --> 02:15:17.100
feels like such a weird punchline to parade out

02:15:17.100 --> 02:15:19.739
the few survivors and then say in memory of the

02:15:19.739 --> 02:15:22.180
6 million Jews that died. I think that's what's

02:15:22.180 --> 02:15:23.479
interesting about this movie is we're talking

02:15:23.479 --> 02:15:27.340
about the 6 million who died or the 600 who lived,

02:15:27.479 --> 02:15:30.680
but we're talking about them very similarly.

02:15:31.079 --> 02:15:33.579
You know what I mean? The reason that these 600

02:15:33.579 --> 02:15:36.579
were saved is very similar to the reason that

02:15:36.579 --> 02:15:39.420
the other 6 million were killed. Really banal

02:15:39.420 --> 02:15:42.119
-ass reasons of a bunch of people who were enjoying

02:15:42.119 --> 02:15:46.010
war. And like trying to survive the end of the

02:15:46.010 --> 02:15:48.829
war. Yeah. Yeah. And I do think that that is,

02:15:48.829 --> 02:15:51.189
that's definitely like the linchpin moment there.

02:15:51.409 --> 02:15:54.250
This like, like dichotomy that, that, that sheds

02:15:54.250 --> 02:15:57.369
light on, on Kubrick's insight when they're all

02:15:57.369 --> 02:15:59.630
in the gas, the quote unquote gas chamber versus

02:15:59.630 --> 02:16:02.630
shower together. Because I remember when I saw

02:16:02.630 --> 02:16:04.869
that, even when I saw it this time, I saw it

02:16:04.869 --> 02:16:06.210
not too long ago. I saw it like two years ago.

02:16:06.289 --> 02:16:08.149
I was mind blown by it. And then I saw it again,

02:16:08.170 --> 02:16:09.369
like, you know, these past couple of few days

02:16:09.369 --> 02:16:14.840
I watched it. And, and like, There is so much

02:16:14.840 --> 02:16:17.859
tension in my body when they are being herded

02:16:17.859 --> 02:16:20.140
into the gas chamber and then the door is locked.

02:16:20.260 --> 02:16:22.479
And it's just like this unescapable feeling of

02:16:22.479 --> 02:16:26.239
like just unfathomably many people who heard

02:16:26.239 --> 02:16:28.439
the fucking shower door lock and that was the

02:16:28.439 --> 02:16:30.199
end for them. And the screaming that followed

02:16:30.199 --> 02:16:33.100
that and how established that is in the cultural

02:16:33.100 --> 02:16:35.379
memory, but also just in like the living memory

02:16:35.379 --> 02:16:40.170
of Jewish. minds and bodies um that that like

02:16:40.170 --> 02:16:42.409
i was feeling all this like tension in my body

02:16:42.409 --> 02:16:44.829
i had forgotten that it actually turns out to

02:16:44.829 --> 02:16:46.690
be the showers i mean it's just like it's the

02:16:46.690 --> 02:16:48.450
showers it's like this gotcha moment it's like

02:16:48.450 --> 02:16:51.829
haha this movie's not about those juice this

02:16:51.829 --> 02:16:54.450
movie's about the special that's exactly what

02:16:54.450 --> 02:16:56.590
i'm saying yeah exactly so like that that was

02:16:56.590 --> 02:16:58.610
like that was my old critique with that scene

02:16:58.610 --> 02:17:00.489
yeah i think it's exactly what you're saying

02:17:00.489 --> 02:17:04.030
yeah yeah yeah completely completely yeah it's

02:17:04.030 --> 02:17:06.709
not about those juice it's about the banality

02:17:06.709 --> 02:17:09.010
of this good thing that happened it works so

02:17:09.010 --> 02:17:12.010
well on rewatch knowing that it's not actually

02:17:12.010 --> 02:17:14.489
a gas chamber just like it all just plays so

02:17:14.489 --> 02:17:18.350
well yeah it does it doesn't need to be an actual

02:17:18.350 --> 02:17:21.309
tension building thing like For it to work so

02:17:21.309 --> 02:17:23.889
well. Right, 100%. And then I think what you

02:17:23.889 --> 02:17:26.350
said, the line that you brought up earlier, Tony,

02:17:26.409 --> 02:17:29.829
is so on point, is so necessary, where Oscar

02:17:29.829 --> 02:17:32.629
Schindler's like, I'm a presentation man. Because

02:17:32.629 --> 02:17:35.729
at the end of the day, this film is like an incredibly

02:17:35.729 --> 02:17:38.850
sumptuous and cinematic expression of the Schindler

02:17:38.850 --> 02:17:42.049
myth, and that actually this is the final and

02:17:42.049 --> 02:17:44.790
finest product of his life's work, is like...

02:17:44.950 --> 02:17:48.969
this is best picture. This is $350 million, uh,

02:17:49.129 --> 02:17:52.090
like in box office receipts worldwide. This is

02:17:52.090 --> 02:17:56.069
this name that is forever hallowed. And, and

02:17:56.069 --> 02:17:57.750
what you say about the name, I think is also

02:17:57.750 --> 02:17:59.569
really interesting and important because they

02:17:59.569 --> 02:18:02.149
bring up the name Schindler's name. They like

02:18:02.149 --> 02:18:04.030
create this tension around Schindler's name in

02:18:04.030 --> 02:18:05.930
the, in the first scene of the movie where like,

02:18:05.950 --> 02:18:07.790
they don't say his name until they're ready.

02:18:07.829 --> 02:18:09.489
Who is he? Who is he? Who is he? They don't say

02:18:09.489 --> 02:18:11.489
their name, his name until he's ready. And it's

02:18:11.489 --> 02:18:13.930
like, Oscar Schindler, this is the name that

02:18:13.930 --> 02:18:16.709
will, reverberate throughout history for all

02:18:16.709 --> 02:18:19.450
time. And that, that, that on some level, another

02:18:19.450 --> 02:18:22.290
name is called out. It's like, it's, it's for

02:18:22.290 --> 02:18:23.430
the same thing. It's like, Oh, your name is going

02:18:23.430 --> 02:18:26.049
to go down on the list. Yeah. In the books on

02:18:26.049 --> 02:18:27.969
the list. If you don't give me these guys and

02:18:27.969 --> 02:18:30.110
you're going to be in Siberia, if you don't agree

02:18:30.110 --> 02:18:32.090
with me, it's next turn. Then like, who knows

02:18:32.090 --> 02:18:34.309
what I said after we cut there. Like, you know,

02:18:34.309 --> 02:18:37.870
you need to get your Jews to support me. Right.

02:18:37.930 --> 02:18:39.709
Right. This is, this is, this is the arc. This

02:18:39.709 --> 02:18:42.069
is the arc of history. This is the arc of redemption.

02:18:42.889 --> 02:18:46.610
Um, uh, it's so funny, actually the arc of redemption,

02:18:46.729 --> 02:18:48.670
like the, the, the word play there, like the

02:18:48.670 --> 02:18:51.370
idea of fucking Schindler's arc or Schindler's

02:18:51.370 --> 02:18:54.030
arc. It's like his character arc, how he redeems

02:18:54.030 --> 02:18:56.350
himself. But it's also this idea of like the

02:18:56.350 --> 02:18:58.610
arc, the arc of redemption itself is an arc that

02:18:58.610 --> 02:19:00.590
you can climb into to survive, to survive the

02:19:00.590 --> 02:19:03.770
stores. Yeah. The storms of, of, of war. They

02:19:03.770 --> 02:19:05.670
weather the storm. Yeah. And he weathered the

02:19:05.670 --> 02:19:08.350
storm. And, and, and so what's, what's incredible

02:19:08.350 --> 02:19:11.590
about this, about this work is how, yeah, it

02:19:11.590 --> 02:19:14.229
reaches. back into history and the very question

02:19:14.229 --> 02:19:17.649
of filmmaking myth making what is this as the

02:19:17.649 --> 02:19:20.649
final product being that of like the cultural

02:19:20.649 --> 02:19:24.590
imagination and like that's who schindler is

02:19:24.590 --> 02:19:27.629
he like is just he is a kind of like a movie

02:19:27.629 --> 02:19:31.069
man you know he's like he's presentation he's

02:19:31.069 --> 02:19:32.969
so dashing he's so handsome he says everything

02:19:32.969 --> 02:19:34.829
at the right time he like lights your cigarette

02:19:34.829 --> 02:19:37.149
just when you need it to be lit he's like he's

02:19:37.149 --> 02:19:39.190
like he's subtle he's masterful he gets all the

02:19:39.190 --> 02:19:42.350
sexy ladies all this business And like his final

02:19:42.350 --> 02:19:46.110
work in the world is this piece of this, you

02:19:46.110 --> 02:19:48.790
know, this this this this piece of propaganda

02:19:48.790 --> 02:19:52.770
to burnish the cult of his own personality, which

02:19:52.770 --> 02:19:56.409
is like, you know. Like there are 6 ,000 plus

02:19:56.409 --> 02:19:59.270
Schindler Jews who are living in the world who

02:19:59.270 --> 02:20:01.370
are forever be known as like the Schindler Jews,

02:20:01.450 --> 02:20:03.409
like Schindler's Jews. Just as its own kind of

02:20:03.409 --> 02:20:06.049
like, what? It's crazy. It's like Oompa Loompa.

02:20:06.309 --> 02:20:08.110
It's like Oompa Loompa shit. I went and I saved

02:20:08.110 --> 02:20:10.149
them from the fucking whatever the fuck, like

02:20:10.149 --> 02:20:12.590
crazy evil place that they came from. And now

02:20:12.590 --> 02:20:15.809
they work for me for forever. Right, right. You're

02:20:15.809 --> 02:20:17.989
right. It's so. I actually thought there was

02:20:17.989 --> 02:20:20.829
something like oddly ominous and freaky about

02:20:20.829 --> 02:20:22.989
the shot where all the Jews are walking over

02:20:22.989 --> 02:20:25.399
the horizon. Yeah, and the Oompa Loompa music

02:20:25.399 --> 02:20:29.079
starts playing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It

02:20:29.079 --> 02:20:32.000
is weird, dude. It's a weird final scene. Right

02:20:32.000 --> 02:20:33.340
before that, they're all, like, laying on the

02:20:33.340 --> 02:20:34.860
ground, right? And, like, the guy approaches

02:20:34.860 --> 02:20:37.180
on the horse, and they're like, where can we

02:20:37.180 --> 02:20:39.100
go? He's like, you are liberated. And they're

02:20:39.100 --> 02:20:40.579
like, where can we go? And he's like, well, don't

02:20:40.579 --> 02:20:42.340
go east. They hate you there. He's like, but

02:20:42.340 --> 02:20:44.200
isn't there some town? He's like, isn't there

02:20:44.200 --> 02:20:47.040
some town over there? And that's a huge moment

02:20:47.040 --> 02:20:51.940
in the movie. And it looks like they're wandering

02:20:51.940 --> 02:20:54.139
through the desert. And it's like, well, where

02:20:54.139 --> 02:20:57.319
are they wandering to? And then it's the whole

02:20:57.319 --> 02:20:59.799
fucking trauma cycle all over again. I think

02:20:59.799 --> 02:21:02.159
that allows you to tie Schindler to Israel and

02:21:02.159 --> 02:21:04.600
Israeli leaders because the Israel thing is all

02:21:04.600 --> 02:21:06.600
discussed at the end of the movie as this sort

02:21:06.600 --> 02:21:10.000
of final thing. And like, that's, that's why

02:21:10.000 --> 02:21:11.879
I think there's the connection between Schindler

02:21:11.879 --> 02:21:14.780
and Eichmann and Schindler and Israeli leaders

02:21:14.780 --> 02:21:17.120
at the time and that sort of thing. Like, I think

02:21:17.120 --> 02:21:19.879
this is part of the, and he kind of fills in

02:21:19.879 --> 02:21:22.500
that last Israeli puzzle piece there, like at

02:21:22.500 --> 02:21:25.239
the very end, kind of being like in this. It's

02:21:25.239 --> 02:21:27.520
kind of like his ending of Munich. At the end

02:21:27.520 --> 02:21:29.739
of Munich, it talks about the nine out of 11

02:21:29.739 --> 02:21:32.840
guys that died or whatever. It's got the twin

02:21:32.840 --> 02:21:35.360
towers in the background or whatever. He also

02:21:35.360 --> 02:21:37.840
has Eamon. Eamon has that whole speech where

02:21:37.840 --> 02:21:40.430
he says like... about Krakow. They came here

02:21:40.430 --> 02:21:42.450
with nothing and they flourished for six centuries.

02:21:42.809 --> 02:21:45.209
There's been a Jewish Krakow. This evening, all

02:21:45.209 --> 02:21:47.350
six centuries are a rumor. They never happened.

02:21:47.469 --> 02:21:51.629
Today is history. Yeah, that was an absolutely

02:21:51.629 --> 02:21:53.629
blood -chilling moment. That was a blood -chilling

02:21:53.629 --> 02:21:56.229
moment in the film. Really, really powerful.

02:21:57.670 --> 02:22:02.090
Yeah, yeah. I mean, for me, it's like... I know

02:22:02.090 --> 02:22:04.909
that it couldn't have been intentional exactly,

02:22:05.030 --> 02:22:08.790
but watching this movie in 2024, like, how can

02:22:08.790 --> 02:22:11.790
you not see Palestine? How can you not see Palestine?

02:22:12.069 --> 02:22:14.590
Yeah, I know. How can you not see Palestine?

02:22:14.850 --> 02:22:17.709
I was worried that would come up. Yeah. I'm just

02:22:17.709 --> 02:22:20.549
kidding. I'm just kidding. And I'm allowed to

02:22:20.549 --> 02:22:22.350
say it. I'm allowed to say it. And I don't, like,

02:22:22.370 --> 02:22:25.989
I'm not joking, fellas. I might ask. for you

02:22:25.989 --> 02:22:28.629
to cut this from, from the back and forth, because

02:22:28.629 --> 02:22:31.870
I do want to, I hope not. I, I, I, I hope not.

02:22:31.930 --> 02:22:34.350
I, I, I don't think I will, but I do want to

02:22:34.350 --> 02:22:37.690
share this with my peeps. And, and like, I, I,

02:22:37.690 --> 02:22:42.079
I do like, these are some really. potent words

02:22:42.079 --> 02:22:44.780
that could really, really hurt some feelings

02:22:44.780 --> 02:22:47.020
of, of Jewish people who are deeply beloved to

02:22:47.020 --> 02:22:50.659
me. So I want to be like sensitive to that fact.

02:22:50.739 --> 02:22:53.100
Um, and just like, absolutely. Yeah. And just

02:22:53.100 --> 02:22:55.459
acknowledge and like acknowledge the, like the

02:22:55.459 --> 02:22:58.899
depth of the pain and like the screaming of the

02:22:58.899 --> 02:23:01.920
ancestors in our bones. And like all that, like

02:23:01.920 --> 02:23:06.799
all that fear and reactivity is all like so justified

02:23:06.799 --> 02:23:10.620
historically. And yet it's super important for

02:23:10.620 --> 02:23:12.459
us. to see the deeper patterns at work here,

02:23:12.479 --> 02:23:15.000
the patterns of empire and trauma cycles playing

02:23:15.000 --> 02:23:18.559
themselves out. When Oskar Schindler moves into

02:23:18.559 --> 02:23:20.559
this Jewish person's house and they're just,

02:23:20.620 --> 02:23:24.219
like, gone, and you talk about 600 years of Jews

02:23:24.219 --> 02:23:27.360
in Krakow, now just a memory, just a rumor, I

02:23:27.360 --> 02:23:30.440
mean, like, you can't not see Palestine. You

02:23:30.440 --> 02:23:32.879
just can't not see it. The fucking project of

02:23:32.879 --> 02:23:35.040
making it like, oh, actually, the Palestinians

02:23:35.040 --> 02:23:37.940
are some weird historical rumor. Like, that's

02:23:37.940 --> 02:23:41.680
the idea. It's like, oh, and, like, I'm super,

02:23:41.959 --> 02:23:45.149
I've got some Zionists, like, I've got... Zionists

02:23:45.149 --> 02:23:47.250
in my family who I'm like incredibly, incredibly

02:23:47.250 --> 02:23:53.149
close to and and like listening to their understanding

02:23:53.149 --> 02:23:56.430
of like the Palestinian people, like the story

02:23:56.430 --> 02:23:58.329
of the Palestinian people, because of the sort

02:23:58.329 --> 02:24:01.489
of the the mythos that they've imbibed as like

02:24:01.489 --> 02:24:06.520
really like avid ultra Zionists is. so confused

02:24:06.520 --> 02:24:09.120
it's like literally like oh they're actually

02:24:09.120 --> 02:24:11.440
Palestinians are actually some sort of like historical

02:24:11.440 --> 02:24:14.000
rumor there was never such a thing as Palestine

02:24:14.000 --> 02:24:16.500
it was never a real thing it was just like oh

02:24:16.500 --> 02:24:18.520
yeah it was like some people from Jordan who

02:24:18.520 --> 02:24:21.020
like came to work there because like there were

02:24:21.020 --> 02:24:22.920
Jews there creating like lots of jobs and lots

02:24:22.920 --> 02:24:24.819
of work so like that's why there were Palestinian

02:24:24.819 --> 02:24:26.319
people there in the first place was because the

02:24:26.319 --> 02:24:28.500
Jews made this like a place of economic activity

02:24:28.500 --> 02:24:31.540
but basically the whole message being that they're

02:24:31.540 --> 02:24:34.159
actually a weird historical rumor which is just

02:24:34.159 --> 02:24:37.459
like exactly what fucking Amon Goeth says 600

02:24:37.459 --> 02:24:40.319
years of course it's more than that in the case

02:24:40.319 --> 02:24:43.940
of the Levant but it's just like yeah how could

02:24:43.940 --> 02:24:46.219
you not how could you not see it I don't know

02:24:46.219 --> 02:24:49.700
it's like I don't I don't suppose that this is

02:24:49.700 --> 02:24:51.840
what Spielberg was intending I'm not going to

02:24:51.840 --> 02:24:55.219
suppose that but I do believe that you know with

02:24:55.219 --> 02:24:59.059
eternal masterworks and genius of his order like

02:24:59.059 --> 02:25:00.959
you're touching into something that your mind

02:25:00.959 --> 02:25:05.399
can't comprehend and like it's just unavoidable

02:25:05.399 --> 02:25:08.399
it's just an unavoidable fucking parallel to

02:25:08.399 --> 02:25:11.159
watch this movie in 2024 i mean i i think that

02:25:11.159 --> 02:25:14.459
you know a lot of that that we see in 2024 i

02:25:14.459 --> 02:25:16.520
think was already evident in the 90s and 100

02:25:16.520 --> 02:25:21.040
oh 100 but like spielberg is a guy the best for

02:25:21.040 --> 02:25:23.139
me is you know like i was talking about the ending

02:25:23.139 --> 02:25:25.899
of munich implicating that like 9 -11 is what

02:25:25.899 --> 02:25:28.340
comes from this sort of thing whatever um the

02:25:29.370 --> 02:25:31.370
Blu -ray of Munich. If you put it in, it starts

02:25:31.370 --> 02:25:33.250
with Spielberg giving you like an introduction

02:25:33.250 --> 02:25:35.930
where he specifically says, like, I just want

02:25:35.930 --> 02:25:38.299
everybody to know. don't make the mistake that

02:25:38.299 --> 02:25:40.700
I'm not being critical of Israel. He says like

02:25:40.700 --> 02:25:42.059
a double negative or whatever. He's like, I'm

02:25:42.059 --> 02:25:44.059
totally not being critical of Israel. But he

02:25:44.059 --> 02:25:47.319
says it in a weird double negative way. He's

02:25:47.319 --> 02:25:48.540
like, just don't make the mistake that I'm not

02:25:48.540 --> 02:25:51.079
making the mistake about being critical of Israel

02:25:51.079 --> 02:25:53.620
in this movie because in no way am I not doing

02:25:53.620 --> 02:25:58.180
that. It's very funny. But it is like in order

02:25:58.180 --> 02:25:59.440
to release a movie like that. The war in Lebanon

02:25:59.440 --> 02:26:03.979
had already began before that too. So Israel's

02:26:03.979 --> 02:26:06.319
history has always kind of been a little bit,

02:26:06.709 --> 02:26:11.049
Oh, no, no, no. The Nachbat is not dissimilar

02:26:11.049 --> 02:26:13.030
to the liquidation of Krakow, is the God's honest

02:26:13.030 --> 02:26:15.549
truth. I'm not sure of the Nachbat. That happened

02:26:15.549 --> 02:26:20.870
six years later. That happened six years later.

02:26:21.389 --> 02:26:24.010
It's like it's actually it's crazy. It's actually

02:26:24.010 --> 02:26:27.030
unfathomable. But the Nachba looked like, you

02:26:27.030 --> 02:26:29.889
know, like there were ways in which I mean, there

02:26:29.889 --> 02:26:32.950
were obviously they're obviously different. But

02:26:32.950 --> 02:26:36.350
but in terms of the scale, for sure, the Nachba

02:26:36.350 --> 02:26:39.270
exceeded that of the liquidation of Krakow. But

02:26:39.270 --> 02:26:43.549
also the Holocaust also exceeds the scale of.

02:26:44.700 --> 02:26:47.479
of the crime of whatever, not the scale, whatever,

02:26:47.559 --> 02:26:49.659
you know, these are, it's grotesque to even compare

02:26:49.659 --> 02:26:52.200
these. These are both crimes of the highest order.

02:26:52.260 --> 02:26:54.739
So let's just leave it at that. Well, so crimes

02:26:54.739 --> 02:26:56.979
against humanity, right? That term had to be

02:26:56.979 --> 02:27:00.000
invented after the Holocaust. That's something

02:27:00.000 --> 02:27:03.500
that Hannah Arendt gets into in her book as well.

02:27:03.799 --> 02:27:05.559
And that's even something that gets brought up

02:27:05.559 --> 02:27:09.059
in this movie when like Schindler. says, like,

02:27:09.100 --> 02:27:11.299
you'll get special treatment, and Stern's like,

02:27:11.520 --> 02:27:14.219
I hear a lot about special treatment these days.

02:27:14.260 --> 02:27:15.819
He's like, okay, preferential treatment, what?

02:27:15.940 --> 02:27:17.420
Do we have to invent a new language? And he's

02:27:17.420 --> 02:27:19.819
like, I think we do. Yeah, right, right, 100%.

02:27:19.819 --> 02:27:21.700
And it's like, yeah, this idea of, like, Amon

02:27:21.700 --> 02:27:23.739
Goth was hanged for crimes against humanity.

02:27:23.840 --> 02:27:27.200
Like, it's a thing that didn't exist before the

02:27:27.200 --> 02:27:28.840
Holocaust, and, like, this whole international

02:27:28.840 --> 02:27:32.659
community came together and tried to, like, invent...

02:27:33.180 --> 02:27:37.219
um the the international rules of law yes that

02:27:37.219 --> 02:27:40.020
like can't be enforced and to this day are being

02:27:40.020 --> 02:27:42.639
today are being tested oh yeah i mean that's

02:27:42.639 --> 02:27:44.920
the hilarious thing that they're also being dismantled

02:27:44.920 --> 02:27:47.899
by the quote -unquote jewish state like the the

02:27:47.899 --> 02:27:51.120
last vestiges of their legitimacy are being completely

02:27:51.120 --> 02:27:54.159
dismantled by the jewish state so it's funny

02:27:54.159 --> 02:27:56.680
because they developed in response to the jewish

02:27:57.120 --> 02:28:00.020
uh genocide the jewish holocaust but they're

02:28:00.020 --> 02:28:02.020
also now being like full i mean which i mean

02:28:02.020 --> 02:28:03.860
they kind of developed in response to but they

02:28:03.860 --> 02:28:06.979
kind of developed in coordination with i mean

02:28:06.979 --> 02:28:09.340
when they chose the people who were allowed to

02:28:09.340 --> 02:28:11.760
come to israel yeah of our agreement and stuff

02:28:11.760 --> 02:28:15.299
i mean the people who start that are are not

02:28:16.010 --> 02:28:18.090
of the Holocaust, right? I mean, I guess they

02:28:18.090 --> 02:28:19.829
are survivors, but they didn't go through the

02:28:19.829 --> 02:28:22.909
Holocaust. Yeah, they escaped. And then they

02:28:22.909 --> 02:28:25.190
got a lot of reparations after the Holocaust

02:28:25.190 --> 02:28:28.190
to create an entire country. But, you know, who

02:28:28.190 --> 02:28:29.790
didn't get the reparations were all the Jews

02:28:29.790 --> 02:28:32.510
that were sentenced to death. All the people

02:28:32.510 --> 02:28:34.229
who, you know what I mean? A lot of that money

02:28:34.229 --> 02:28:36.590
went to, you know, these Israeli leaders that

02:28:36.590 --> 02:28:38.209
then created a country and then had their own

02:28:38.209 --> 02:28:40.549
Holocaust. Right, right, right. We could say

02:28:40.549 --> 02:28:43.450
there are differences and whatever, but I think

02:28:43.450 --> 02:28:46.389
that part of the thing is that These are not

02:28:46.389 --> 02:28:49.610
necessarily the same people who, you know, were

02:28:49.610 --> 02:28:53.610
in the concentration camps in, you know, Poland.

02:28:53.889 --> 02:28:55.590
You know what I mean? No, they were not. And

02:28:55.590 --> 02:28:58.590
then it's a famous fact that like Holocaust survivors

02:28:58.590 --> 02:29:01.850
in Israel to this day are often like living in

02:29:01.850 --> 02:29:06.069
poverty, et cetera, et cetera. That's wild. I

02:29:06.069 --> 02:29:09.489
did not know that. Yes, it's true. I mean, they're

02:29:09.489 --> 02:29:13.079
just. You know, for all of the ways in which

02:29:13.079 --> 02:29:15.579
the Holocaust is used as like the central historical

02:29:15.579 --> 02:29:19.299
justification for the state of Israel, the actual

02:29:19.299 --> 02:29:22.680
Holocaust survivors are not en masse treated

02:29:22.680 --> 02:29:25.559
as well as you would expect them to be treated.

02:29:25.600 --> 02:29:27.959
A lot of them are living in poverty. They're

02:29:27.959 --> 02:29:30.020
not just getting all of the reparations straight

02:29:30.020 --> 02:29:34.840
to them and allowing to divide it up. poor in

02:29:34.840 --> 02:29:36.680
a society that got all the reparations for what

02:29:36.680 --> 02:29:38.680
they went through yeah and for what like yeah

02:29:38.680 --> 02:29:41.040
for their own particular project and for their

02:29:41.040 --> 02:29:43.719
own you know particular political ends right

02:29:43.719 --> 02:29:46.159
yeah i mean yeah no i mean it's it's it's it's

02:29:46.159 --> 02:29:48.760
it's it's hard to say what like steven spielberg

02:29:48.760 --> 02:29:52.659
was like is is truly in touch with when when

02:29:52.659 --> 02:29:55.139
uh like consciously well i know at this point

02:29:55.139 --> 02:29:57.040
he was rediscovering his judaism he'd just gotten

02:29:57.040 --> 02:30:01.959
with his new wife um Yeah. And she wanted to

02:30:01.959 --> 02:30:04.260
convert and whatever. And he, you know, had historically

02:30:04.260 --> 02:30:06.739
not really been super forward with his Judaism

02:30:06.739 --> 02:30:08.719
in his movies or whatever. So it's there. It's

02:30:08.719 --> 02:30:12.430
very much there. Of course. But... You know,

02:30:12.469 --> 02:30:14.709
he talks about having a certain shame about being

02:30:14.709 --> 02:30:17.170
called shmuel by like his grandfather in front

02:30:17.170 --> 02:30:18.750
of the other kids and stuff and trying to hide

02:30:18.750 --> 02:30:19.989
his Judaism and that sort of thing, whatever.

02:30:20.209 --> 02:30:22.250
And that his marriage to Kate Capshaw and her

02:30:22.250 --> 02:30:25.190
wanting to convert whatever was his like reintroduction

02:30:25.190 --> 02:30:28.229
to Judaism and this sort of spiritual thing.

02:30:28.370 --> 02:30:32.500
But I think it's it's not just like. He just

02:30:32.500 --> 02:30:35.680
got the Israeli lobbies fucking story and then

02:30:35.680 --> 02:30:37.620
converted that into a movie. Like, you know what

02:30:37.620 --> 02:30:39.280
I mean? This is like, this is a very nuanced

02:30:39.280 --> 02:30:41.680
and like learned approach to the Holocaust. It's

02:30:41.680 --> 02:30:44.379
like as nuanced as you can have a conversation

02:30:44.379 --> 02:30:48.379
about this. It contains all of these contradictions

02:30:48.379 --> 02:30:50.780
and weird things that speak to so many bigger

02:30:50.780 --> 02:30:53.559
psychological things that, I mean. You don't

02:30:53.559 --> 02:30:55.860
have the story of the Holocaust because, like,

02:30:55.940 --> 02:30:57.819
there's just so many fucking stories. And, like,

02:30:57.899 --> 02:30:59.120
it's kind of the same with this, where it's like

02:30:59.120 --> 02:31:00.680
you don't really have this, but there's so many

02:31:00.680 --> 02:31:03.280
things that it talks about. Its connections to

02:31:03.280 --> 02:31:06.000
capitalism, its connections to Israel. Similarly

02:31:06.000 --> 02:31:09.139
with Eichmann in Jerusalem, everything that Hannah

02:31:09.139 --> 02:31:11.260
Arendt talks about in relation to the Holocaust

02:31:11.260 --> 02:31:15.159
is only something that stems from a direct connection

02:31:15.159 --> 02:31:18.100
to Eichmann or what was brought up at the trial.

02:31:18.829 --> 02:31:20.889
And she ends up going into so much more about

02:31:20.889 --> 02:31:23.389
the Holocaust, specifically because of the nature

02:31:23.389 --> 02:31:26.250
of the trial, trying to pin so many crimes against

02:31:26.250 --> 02:31:29.110
humanity, actually crimes against the Jews specifically,

02:31:29.290 --> 02:31:33.409
they say in that trial, on Eichmann, and bring

02:31:33.409 --> 02:31:37.790
up so many Holocaust survivors to give testimonies

02:31:37.790 --> 02:31:39.250
on their experiences, even though they have nothing

02:31:39.250 --> 02:31:43.229
to do with Eichmann. And so her like... her account

02:31:43.229 --> 02:31:45.129
of the trial ends up being, like, a pretty amazing

02:31:45.129 --> 02:31:47.229
account of the Holocaust, even though it's only,

02:31:47.290 --> 02:31:49.309
like, the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. You know?

02:31:49.409 --> 02:31:52.129
Yeah. When you really think about just, like,

02:31:52.209 --> 02:31:53.829
and it blew my mind this time reading it, just,

02:31:53.889 --> 02:31:55.950
like, how many fucking countries were involved,

02:31:56.270 --> 02:31:59.049
how many people had to be complicit in actually

02:31:59.049 --> 02:32:01.030
going along with the shit. Yeah, like, remediation.

02:32:01.030 --> 02:32:03.790
Like, while a two -front war is going on, like,

02:32:03.790 --> 02:32:07.170
it's the most insane, like, confluence of circumstances.

02:32:07.629 --> 02:32:10.129
Yeah. That's, like, basically unfathomable and

02:32:10.129 --> 02:32:14.110
impossible to totally suss out. Yeah, yeah, totally.

02:32:14.530 --> 02:32:17.270
And, like, Romania. Romania, like, killing its

02:32:17.270 --> 02:32:19.469
Jewish population before Ikeman even gets there.

02:32:19.989 --> 02:32:22.549
I know, yeah, dude, Romania was evil. But then

02:32:22.549 --> 02:32:24.690
they changed. Like, Schindler, they all of a

02:32:24.690 --> 02:32:26.790
sudden, like, have a change of heart when it

02:32:26.790 --> 02:32:29.770
becomes policy. Yeah. Like, when the Nazis tell

02:32:29.770 --> 02:32:31.809
them to do it, they don't do it. And the genuinely

02:32:31.809 --> 02:32:35.469
hopeful notes about the lowland countries, like,

02:32:35.510 --> 02:32:38.979
or, like, I think it was Denmark. Was it Denmark?

02:32:39.059 --> 02:32:41.440
Denmark. Denmark saved their Jews. Denmark saved

02:32:41.440 --> 02:32:44.059
their Jews because of, like, sustained, like,

02:32:44.139 --> 02:32:49.719
organized moral outrage. And all that is actually,

02:32:49.760 --> 02:32:52.000
like, being, yeah, I mean, that's, like, the

02:32:52.000 --> 02:32:56.700
inescapable conclusion, I think, of Hannah Arendt's

02:32:56.700 --> 02:33:00.899
work is that, like, it's about the conditions.

02:33:01.420 --> 02:33:04.340
And it's about, like, what the conditions, what

02:33:04.340 --> 02:33:06.600
the social and cultural and economic conditions

02:33:06.600 --> 02:33:09.790
yield. what that's the sort of people who are

02:33:09.790 --> 02:33:12.770
created sort of monsters that are created during

02:33:12.770 --> 02:33:16.639
these times that we are fundamentally like I

02:33:16.639 --> 02:33:18.639
mean, it's such a deep, it's such a deep revelation

02:33:18.639 --> 02:33:20.639
about the nature of human life and identity,

02:33:20.700 --> 02:33:22.760
but that we are ultimately like expressions of

02:33:22.760 --> 02:33:25.579
culture, ecology, and community. We are not these

02:33:25.579 --> 02:33:28.739
unitary bulbs. I am, you know, heavy meadow.

02:33:28.739 --> 02:33:31.100
And I'm just like, not to be like, I'm just like

02:33:31.100 --> 02:33:33.620
this insulated ball bubble that'll like move

02:33:33.620 --> 02:33:36.239
through my life as no, it's like, I'm a swirling

02:33:36.239 --> 02:33:39.940
vector of complexities and inputs and throughputs

02:33:39.940 --> 02:33:43.899
and outputs. And, and that, um, you know, when.

02:33:44.489 --> 02:33:47.649
The conditions are right for people to, like,

02:33:47.690 --> 02:33:51.229
resist and organize moral outrage in functional

02:33:51.229 --> 02:33:54.530
and impactful ways. Like, that is how you save

02:33:54.530 --> 02:33:58.350
Jews. You don't, like, really save Jews. Yeah,

02:33:58.450 --> 02:34:00.090
like, I mean, that is how you... I don't want

02:34:00.090 --> 02:34:01.940
to just say... Save Jews. That's how you save

02:34:01.940 --> 02:34:04.719
lives. That's how you... That's how you save

02:34:04.719 --> 02:34:06.979
Jews. Yeah, yeah. And that's actually... Save

02:34:06.979 --> 02:34:09.360
us, save us. I wanted to just, like, just note

02:34:09.360 --> 02:34:11.079
that weird thing about, like, crimes against

02:34:11.079 --> 02:34:13.399
Jews versus crimes against humanity that they

02:34:13.399 --> 02:34:16.100
sort of, like, centered in the Eichmann trials,

02:34:16.319 --> 02:34:18.200
that Israel centered in the Eichmann trials.

02:34:18.280 --> 02:34:20.959
Like, that's the whole thing that creeps me out

02:34:20.959 --> 02:34:23.879
so foundationally about Zionism, removing Jews

02:34:23.879 --> 02:34:26.739
from humanity. Yeah. Like, I'm sorry, but I'm

02:34:26.739 --> 02:34:30.430
a fucking human. Like, I'm sorry, Zionists. Zionists.

02:34:30.430 --> 02:34:33.350
I'm sorry, Nazis. I belong to humanity. There

02:34:33.350 --> 02:34:34.829
is no difference between them and the people

02:34:34.829 --> 02:34:36.690
who are saying Jews are lizard people. Yeah,

02:34:36.690 --> 02:34:39.569
yeah. At that point, the conspiracies are the

02:34:39.569 --> 02:34:42.610
Zionist viewpoint. And it's so crazy. It's so,

02:34:42.629 --> 02:34:44.889
yeah. It's just like you guys get along with.

02:34:45.649 --> 02:34:49.069
Yeah, I mean, they're inalienable. I mean, you

02:34:49.069 --> 02:34:51.209
need one for the other. Like the political project

02:34:51.209 --> 02:34:54.870
needs this like vision of like the ultimate.

02:34:55.319 --> 02:34:57.780
the ultimate monstrosity of like the Jews not

02:34:57.780 --> 02:35:01.760
belonging anywhere. And yeah, I mean, I'll just,

02:35:01.840 --> 02:35:04.440
yeah, I can't like, I am a person who absolutely

02:35:04.440 --> 02:35:07.000
believes that, you know, if you're a Jewish person,

02:35:07.040 --> 02:35:11.000
you should be able to live safely anywhere in

02:35:11.000 --> 02:35:14.159
this world, which of course includes somewhere

02:35:14.159 --> 02:35:17.479
between the river and the sea. So like, like

02:35:17.479 --> 02:35:19.360
live with the matriarchs and the patriarchs.

02:35:19.360 --> 02:35:22.739
There's no question that our people. like develop

02:35:22.739 --> 02:35:25.159
their foundational practices and ways of being

02:35:25.159 --> 02:35:28.979
in that land. And if you feel called to be there,

02:35:29.120 --> 02:35:31.780
you should be safe living there. And if you're

02:35:31.780 --> 02:35:34.959
a Palestinian, you should be able to be safe

02:35:34.959 --> 02:35:36.659
living there, or you should be able to be safe

02:35:36.659 --> 02:35:39.680
living anywhere because like, that's the ultimate

02:35:39.680 --> 02:35:42.340
dream of a healed earth. Like us actually like

02:35:42.340 --> 02:35:46.879
being safe. where we are, not just having these

02:35:46.879 --> 02:35:49.879
conditions within which, these certain parameters

02:35:49.879 --> 02:35:52.799
within which we can be safe. We can only be safe

02:35:52.799 --> 02:35:56.219
behind these walls. Behind these walls, yeah,

02:35:56.299 --> 02:35:58.979
the nation state, the borders. You really are

02:35:58.979 --> 02:36:02.940
arguing for a much broader perspective than the

02:36:02.940 --> 02:36:05.760
movie maybe gets into, but I totally agree that

02:36:05.760 --> 02:36:09.100
the whole conflict and all these things really

02:36:09.100 --> 02:36:12.670
do speak to that at the most deep level. just

02:36:12.670 --> 02:36:14.889
this idea of where you feel like you're at home

02:36:14.889 --> 02:36:17.809
and where you feel safe. And does it make sense

02:36:17.809 --> 02:36:21.969
that we have like this one fixed place we call

02:36:21.969 --> 02:36:24.350
home or is the earth our home and is every person

02:36:24.350 --> 02:36:27.549
our brother? And it's like that kind of constant

02:36:27.549 --> 02:36:31.209
like battle and dichotomy. Yeah. Yeah. And I,

02:36:31.209 --> 02:36:33.090
and I want to, yeah, totally. And I, and I agree

02:36:33.090 --> 02:36:35.940
that on the one hand, Schindler's List isn't

02:36:35.940 --> 02:36:38.280
really asking those questions and it isn't really

02:36:38.280 --> 02:36:41.500
going there. On the other hand, my own personal

02:36:41.500 --> 02:36:44.840
belief about the Jews and our story and, like,

02:36:44.860 --> 02:36:47.959
what our story can offer the rest of humanity

02:36:47.959 --> 02:36:52.000
as a cautionary tale and as a hopeful tale is

02:36:52.000 --> 02:36:56.899
this foundational reality that, like, you know...

02:36:57.159 --> 02:36:59.700
as a stateless people, as a people who were stateless

02:36:59.700 --> 02:37:03.200
for the vast majority of our... And a victimized

02:37:03.200 --> 02:37:08.000
people. Yeah, stateless and marginalized, that

02:37:08.000 --> 02:37:12.680
truly a safe world for us, the canaries in the

02:37:12.680 --> 02:37:17.059
coal mine, is a world where there are not states.

02:37:17.180 --> 02:37:21.229
There are not regimes. of militarized borders,

02:37:21.729 --> 02:37:26.250
you know, within which there is a single, you

02:37:26.250 --> 02:37:29.489
know, bureaucratic mechanism of violence. Like,

02:37:29.489 --> 02:37:34.930
that is not a world that is safe for Jews or

02:37:34.930 --> 02:37:38.569
ultimately anyone else, you know, with the Jews

02:37:38.569 --> 02:37:41.799
as the canaries in the coal mine as we... always

02:37:41.799 --> 02:37:45.719
were and and and and really today man and today

02:37:45.719 --> 02:37:48.659
it's like that's the yeah like all of israel

02:37:48.659 --> 02:37:51.360
is being used since world war ii as the canary

02:37:51.360 --> 02:37:53.739
it's like little open wound in the middle of

02:37:53.739 --> 02:37:56.239
like the hotbed of everything so that like you

02:37:56.239 --> 02:37:58.420
know, we can test out our weapons there and we

02:37:58.420 --> 02:38:00.479
can figure out surveillance things and we can

02:38:00.479 --> 02:38:03.200
do it. And anybody who's really mad at America,

02:38:03.319 --> 02:38:04.780
they're probably going to come at Israel first.

02:38:04.920 --> 02:38:06.420
Right, right, exactly. You know what I mean?

02:38:06.620 --> 02:38:09.360
And then do all the bad work, which is basically

02:38:09.360 --> 02:38:12.159
what the fucking Nazis did to the Jews. That's

02:38:12.159 --> 02:38:13.680
what the Nazis did to the Jews. That is what

02:38:13.680 --> 02:38:15.520
that is. I mean, this is, Hannah Arendt writes

02:38:15.520 --> 02:38:19.639
about this, writes about the court Jew volubly

02:38:19.639 --> 02:38:21.750
when she, I think she. Yeah, I think it's an

02:38:21.750 --> 02:38:23.770
origins of totalitarianism. She writes about

02:38:23.770 --> 02:38:26.090
the court show this like like structural fact

02:38:26.090 --> 02:38:28.549
of like the Jews, like there were always Jews

02:38:28.549 --> 02:38:31.610
who in exchange for like at least temporary,

02:38:31.709 --> 02:38:34.090
at least the illusion of safety would do the

02:38:34.090 --> 02:38:37.250
dirty work of the empire, would do like run the

02:38:37.250 --> 02:38:40.180
finances of the empire so that. when shit goes

02:38:40.180 --> 02:38:43.360
down, no, and people start raising the pitchforks

02:38:43.360 --> 02:38:45.620
instead of any kind of structural transformation.

02:38:45.979 --> 02:38:48.620
The King just says it was the Jews fault. The

02:38:48.620 --> 02:38:50.940
Jew corrupted society. And then they just like

02:38:50.940 --> 02:38:53.840
kill. He made the atomic bomb. Yeah. Then they're

02:38:53.840 --> 02:38:55.979
just, then they'll just do a pogrom and kill

02:38:55.979 --> 02:38:58.680
like, you know, like 10 ,000 Jews, get it out

02:38:58.680 --> 02:39:00.700
of their system, expel the Jews from Spain, expel

02:39:00.700 --> 02:39:02.739
wherever the fuck, just get it out of their system.

02:39:02.780 --> 02:39:05.040
And then there can be another cycle of like,

02:39:05.040 --> 02:39:07.639
like corruption. Yeah. Yeah. Bringing in. Yeah.

02:39:07.700 --> 02:39:10.510
And so that, that this is like this and that,

02:39:10.530 --> 02:39:12.950
and that Israel is the ultimate embodiment of

02:39:12.950 --> 02:39:15.110
that shape, the ultimate embodiment of that shape.

02:39:15.329 --> 02:39:17.370
And then that's exactly what like, and so it's

02:39:17.370 --> 02:39:18.889
just, what's so heartbreaking and horrifying

02:39:18.889 --> 02:39:21.489
about what's happening in the world right now

02:39:21.489 --> 02:39:23.690
is that, is that, yeah, like that, that this

02:39:23.690 --> 02:39:28.110
process is, is still very much so underway. And

02:39:28.110 --> 02:39:31.790
like the Jew has through pursuing or this group

02:39:31.790 --> 02:39:34.780
of Jews through pursuing this, like, perceived

02:39:34.780 --> 02:39:39.219
vision of like safety has actually created the

02:39:39.219 --> 02:39:42.719
conditions for a global type of antisemitism

02:39:42.719 --> 02:39:47.379
to rise that probably exceeds anything that humanity

02:39:47.379 --> 02:39:51.139
knew before because of how like imperative it's

02:39:51.139 --> 02:39:54.139
been for Israel to wire up all these fucking

02:39:54.139 --> 02:39:57.559
connections all over the world to make viable

02:39:57.559 --> 02:40:02.129
its inherently unstable, unsafe, insecure project.

02:40:02.430 --> 02:40:05.850
And so now it's... Israel is like ironically

02:40:05.850 --> 02:40:08.030
counterproductive to the safety of the Jewish

02:40:08.030 --> 02:40:10.489
diaspora. Oh, a hundred percent. And in this

02:40:10.489 --> 02:40:14.049
way, it is this like embodiment of Hitler's worst

02:40:14.049 --> 02:40:18.090
vision for what the Jews were as these like,

02:40:18.190 --> 02:40:20.809
you know, these actors that like, you know, are

02:40:20.809 --> 02:40:23.510
trying to, they have dual loyalty and they're

02:40:23.510 --> 02:40:26.469
trying to wire up the world to be, you know,

02:40:26.469 --> 02:40:29.500
in service to this like political pride. in this

02:40:29.500 --> 02:40:32.620
incredibly, like, potent corner of the world.

02:40:32.799 --> 02:40:37.639
And so, yeah, it's just what is so weird about

02:40:37.639 --> 02:40:40.579
and so horrifying about this moment right now

02:40:40.579 --> 02:40:43.440
of ultimate, like, cultural awakening and reckoning

02:40:43.440 --> 02:40:47.979
is this, like, it's almost like the second, I

02:40:47.979 --> 02:40:49.719
mean, it is the second chapter of the Holocaust.

02:40:49.979 --> 02:40:51.840
It really is the second chapter of the Holocaust,

02:40:51.979 --> 02:40:54.540
one with the genocide against the Palestinian

02:40:54.540 --> 02:40:58.239
people, but then also with, like, How it has

02:40:58.239 --> 02:41:00.979
in so many ways. I like I don't want to like,

02:41:01.040 --> 02:41:04.350
you know, overstate the case, but like has. just

02:41:04.350 --> 02:41:08.049
dehumanized a lot of Jews, has inured them to

02:41:08.049 --> 02:41:10.510
the unimaginable like suffering that this political

02:41:10.510 --> 02:41:13.790
project is causing. And like, I've just seen

02:41:13.790 --> 02:41:16.950
a lot of Jews express disdain for disdain for

02:41:16.950 --> 02:41:19.709
Palestinian life, which I can only describe as

02:41:19.709 --> 02:41:22.469
like inhuman callousness, you know, just like,

02:41:22.469 --> 02:41:25.450
like, like, of course, they're Jewish people,

02:41:25.510 --> 02:41:28.530
some of whom I love with all of my heart, like

02:41:28.530 --> 02:41:30.409
the people most important to me in my entire

02:41:30.409 --> 02:41:33.540
world. But, like, there's, like, this dimension

02:41:33.540 --> 02:41:36.360
of inhumanity there where it's just, like, this

02:41:36.360 --> 02:41:38.920
callousness of just, like, dang, that is just,

02:41:38.979 --> 02:41:43.200
it's like a mutant. It's, like, monstrous. That

02:41:43.200 --> 02:41:46.340
is born of, like, such unimaginable historical

02:41:46.340 --> 02:41:49.959
trauma that has been capitalized on by the Empire.

02:41:50.479 --> 02:41:52.200
But it also comes from being in the middle of

02:41:52.200 --> 02:41:54.059
a hotbed and stuff. You know what I mean? It

02:41:54.059 --> 02:41:56.500
comes from just being in a war zone. That's how

02:41:56.500 --> 02:42:00.530
you get a name on Goth. Yeah, totally. You get

02:42:00.530 --> 02:42:02.850
young men in a situation where they can rape

02:42:02.850 --> 02:42:04.170
and kill all these women, they're going to do

02:42:04.170 --> 02:42:06.430
it. They're going to turn into fucking monsters.

02:42:06.790 --> 02:42:10.510
And it doesn't really matter. Unless you're racist

02:42:10.510 --> 02:42:12.250
enough to think that the race matters somehow,

02:42:12.409 --> 02:42:13.729
then the race doesn't really matter. It's going

02:42:13.729 --> 02:42:15.090
to happen to everybody. Yeah, the race doesn't

02:42:15.090 --> 02:42:18.110
matter at all. Germans do it, Jews do it, Africans

02:42:18.110 --> 02:42:20.809
do it. It's almost hard to believe that a character

02:42:20.809 --> 02:42:23.889
as terrible as Amon Goethe would exist, but apparently

02:42:23.889 --> 02:42:25.889
he was even worse than he was described in the

02:42:25.889 --> 02:42:28.579
movie, or portrayed in the movie. But seeing

02:42:28.579 --> 02:42:32.139
these IDF soldiers just TikTok their atrocities

02:42:32.139 --> 02:42:34.540
and laugh about it is some pretty crazy stuff.

02:42:34.639 --> 02:42:37.239
You're just like, oh, wow. There actually is

02:42:37.239 --> 02:42:42.399
a serious full metal jacket dehumanization to...

02:42:43.120 --> 02:42:45.600
the horror and pain you inflict on others. That's

02:42:45.600 --> 02:42:48.219
very real. It's just like, yeah. And a dehumanization

02:42:48.219 --> 02:42:50.340
that gets you to that point. And then there's

02:42:50.340 --> 02:42:52.219
a dehumanization that takes you from that point.

02:42:52.319 --> 02:42:53.420
Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

02:42:53.440 --> 02:42:55.319
well, and that's of course the irony that's just

02:42:55.319 --> 02:42:58.579
like the sort of like the, the, the poetic heartbreak,

02:42:58.639 --> 02:43:01.659
the poetic tragedy is that like, however much

02:43:01.659 --> 02:43:06.100
you dehumanize, like the other that you are like,

02:43:06.180 --> 02:43:09.200
like participating in the extermination of is

02:43:09.200 --> 02:43:11.260
the degree to which you dehumanize yourself.

02:43:11.780 --> 02:43:14.270
And just, like become just this mutant to the

02:43:14.270 --> 02:43:17.450
world. I was just like, who the fuck are these

02:43:17.450 --> 02:43:20.389
people? And it's, it's, it's a really, yeah,

02:43:20.489 --> 02:43:23.850
it's a very hard thing to be a Jewish person

02:43:23.850 --> 02:43:27.510
and see it happening at this sort of scale, you

02:43:27.510 --> 02:43:30.450
know? Um, and in this, and, and, and in this

02:43:30.450 --> 02:43:34.090
sort of like in such brazen ways, in such brazen

02:43:34.090 --> 02:43:37.750
terms, I'm like, yeah, I, it's, it's hard to

02:43:37.750 --> 02:43:40.190
say. It's hard to know what to say other than

02:43:40.190 --> 02:43:44.469
to just like, you know, try to stay open to the

02:43:44.469 --> 02:43:47.809
historical lesson and know that, like, that these

02:43:47.809 --> 02:43:50.090
are cycles of suffering that, of course, did

02:43:50.090 --> 02:43:53.389
not end with the end of World War II and Hitler,

02:43:53.450 --> 02:43:55.989
like, turning his gun on himself. Like, these

02:43:55.989 --> 02:43:58.549
are cycles of suffering that are inherent to

02:43:58.549 --> 02:44:05.040
our mode of, like... accumulation, economy, human

02:44:05.040 --> 02:44:10.440
affairs, and that there's kind of no way out

02:44:10.440 --> 02:44:14.260
other than to actually do the deep work of transformation

02:44:14.260 --> 02:44:17.799
at the individual and community and ecosystem

02:44:17.799 --> 02:44:21.020
level. It's like the hardest thing of all time,

02:44:21.200 --> 02:44:24.399
but we don't have a choice because the world

02:44:24.399 --> 02:44:33.500
is dying. They're all doing it by the book. Well,

02:44:33.500 --> 02:44:35.399
thank you so much for sharing all that, man.

02:44:35.540 --> 02:44:37.600
I appreciate your perspective. We don't usually

02:44:37.600 --> 02:44:39.680
get into current events on this podcast, but

02:44:39.680 --> 02:44:42.520
I think you're right that all that really does

02:44:42.520 --> 02:44:46.780
relate very deeply to this movie and the subjects.

02:44:47.200 --> 02:44:49.840
I mean, funny that Willy Wonka, like how far

02:44:49.840 --> 02:44:53.559
we came from that, but like it's all very connected.

02:44:53.559 --> 02:44:55.719
It is all very connected. It is all very connected.

02:44:55.860 --> 02:44:57.819
It's a big conversation that continues to go

02:44:57.819 --> 02:45:00.100
on and on. Yeah, yeah. And I think ultimately,

02:45:00.860 --> 02:45:03.260
The tie -in is, like we said earlier, it's the

02:45:03.260 --> 02:45:06.879
banality of evil. I mean, fucking... And it's

02:45:06.879 --> 02:45:10.860
so foundational to how the world works, the banality

02:45:10.860 --> 02:45:13.260
of evil, that actually you put these two movies

02:45:13.260 --> 02:45:15.709
next to each other and they're like... There's

02:45:15.709 --> 02:45:20.209
insane resonance and overlap. Because it exists

02:45:20.209 --> 02:45:22.989
in capitalism. It exists in Nazism. It exists

02:45:22.989 --> 02:45:26.670
in any office environment. Any tower of power.

02:45:26.809 --> 02:45:30.090
In every insurance agency, it exists at the TSA.

02:45:30.329 --> 02:45:35.209
Yeah, exactly. Especially at the TSA. The totally

02:45:35.209 --> 02:45:38.290
banal, dehumanized person who's just like a cog

02:45:38.290 --> 02:45:40.510
in a machine, just like processing your information

02:45:40.510 --> 02:45:42.610
because that's just what you... to have to do.

02:45:42.649 --> 02:45:44.729
Yeah. And it's your job. Totally. Putting you

02:45:44.729 --> 02:45:47.229
on a list. Yeah. And we're just getting more

02:45:47.229 --> 02:45:49.469
and more into like this globalist surveillance

02:45:49.469 --> 02:45:52.270
state shit too, which is part of it, but a whole

02:45:52.270 --> 02:45:54.229
nother conversation. Yeah. That also starts in

02:45:54.229 --> 02:45:59.190
Israel. Yeah. We tested that shit out in Israel.

02:45:59.389 --> 02:46:02.190
Yeah. Or being the canary in the coal mine. Yeah.

02:46:03.290 --> 02:46:06.950
Absolutely. Well, you guys have any final thoughts?

02:46:07.270 --> 02:46:10.250
Are you feeling good? No, I think it was a really,

02:46:10.329 --> 02:46:14.129
it was, really interesting it was really interesting

02:46:14.129 --> 02:46:18.930
to compare these two movies it was really like

02:46:18.930 --> 02:46:23.250
that was very valuable and just unlocked a lot

02:46:23.250 --> 02:46:25.069
yeah i really i really can't believe how many

02:46:25.069 --> 02:46:27.510
hitler's connections there were in walker that

02:46:27.510 --> 02:46:29.909
i didn't even notice yeah that's just so crazy

02:46:29.909 --> 02:46:37.559
dude it's rife with them that's crazy But no,

02:46:37.659 --> 02:46:39.620
I think that does it for me. It feels like that

02:46:39.620 --> 02:46:44.000
was definitely a really satisfying conversation.

02:46:44.100 --> 02:46:45.940
And at the end of the day, it's just like, yeah,

02:46:45.959 --> 02:46:50.819
the unescapable conclusion that our structures

02:46:50.819 --> 02:46:56.079
of human organization, they are foundationally

02:46:56.079 --> 02:46:59.260
based in the banality of evil. And we need to...

02:46:59.939 --> 02:47:01.860
reimagine these structures we need we need to

02:47:01.860 --> 02:47:05.719
dismantle and and compost these structures or

02:47:05.719 --> 02:47:08.239
it's just fucking curtains and like it does feel

02:47:08.239 --> 02:47:12.299
existentially imperative um so that to me is

02:47:12.299 --> 02:47:14.379
like the hopeful like it to to put some sort

02:47:14.379 --> 02:47:16.940
of like hopeful spin on it you know you take

02:47:16.940 --> 02:47:19.219
these two movies that couldn't be kind of more

02:47:19.219 --> 02:47:22.440
different in terms of their pretensions but they're

02:47:22.440 --> 02:47:25.680
actually about like the same like satanic wish

02:47:25.680 --> 02:47:30.700
at the heart of our uh death machine And, you

02:47:30.700 --> 02:47:33.319
know, that just leaves you with this feeling

02:47:33.319 --> 02:47:37.159
that like, this can't be it. Like we need, like

02:47:37.159 --> 02:47:40.000
there needs to be other ways. There just needs

02:47:40.000 --> 02:47:43.639
to be other ways of doing things, you know? Yeah.

02:47:43.760 --> 02:47:48.399
Yeah. Amen, man. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Well, dude,

02:47:48.500 --> 02:47:50.280
I can't thank you enough for joining us. It was

02:47:50.280 --> 02:47:53.969
really like a blessing that you could. Get involved

02:47:53.969 --> 02:47:57.229
on this one. I thought you brought so much to

02:47:57.229 --> 02:47:59.569
the table. It was really valuable. Thanks, homies.

02:47:59.809 --> 02:48:02.329
So thank you so much for being here and talking

02:48:02.329 --> 02:48:04.069
to us about this. Yeah, I really appreciate y

02:48:04.069 --> 02:48:06.549
'all. Thank you for giving me the space to talk

02:48:06.549 --> 02:48:09.950
about these thorny things that are loaded as

02:48:09.950 --> 02:48:15.629
fuck and really hurtful. Yeah, dude, it's a tough

02:48:15.629 --> 02:48:18.889
world out there. Yeah, no doubt. But on that

02:48:18.889 --> 02:48:20.790
note, would you say that's that, Mattress Man?

02:48:21.309 --> 02:48:58.639
okay for season one i'd say that's that you Thank

02:48:58.639 --> 02:48:58.739
you.