No, no, no, man. Man… I want to make movies out of
blood, —The origin— sperm, and tears. And purpose, still a total mystery. I do believe it went out. I got- I got- I got to talking so much I clean forgot about… Dude, that doesn't make
any sense. What? I’ll dance a jig, I swear to Christ. White
lines in the middle of the road. Long as the
bar is Philadelphia. Plenty of sausage and pepperonis. Everything
but the little fishies. Okay, here we are. Welcome,
everybody, to Everything But the Little Fishies,
your favorite subversive analysis podcast. Welcome,
welcome. We're here to talk about Shampoo, 1975,
and Red Rocket from 2021. How would you like
to start this one off, Lunchbox? I mean, we should
probably start with Shampoo, right? We do a chronological
thing generally. Sure. If that's the way we do
it, that's the way we do. Let's do. Yeah, this
one was your suggestion, right? Like you'd seen
Shampoo for the first time recently. So I guess,
why was it you, I don't know, what did you think
of Shampoo? I watched Shampoo because it was
available on Amazon Prime and I, you know. I
had heard like Breddy Sinellis mentioned it a
lot. And like other directors have mentioned
this movie as kind of like a formative movie
for them. Yeah. Matthew Weiner too. Yeah. Matthew
Weiner. So it was one that was kind of just like
floating around as something that I wanted to
watch eventually. And it was like, Oh, this is
available. Cool. I'm going to do this. And I
never even knew that it was a Hal Ashby movie.
Um, and I've really liked every other Hal Ashby
movie I've seen. Which have you seen? I haven't
seen that many, but I've seen Harold and Maude,
The Last Detail. Judd Apatow's favorite comedy,
The Last Detail. And then Being There. Yeah,
yeah. Very different movies, all three of those.
Oh, yeah. But I can kind of see, that's why I
really didn't even know these were all Hal Ashby
movies. It really didn't come together for me
until I watched Shampoo and I looked at his filmography
and I was like, holy shit, this period from like...
What is it? Basically the 70s into the early
80s seems like a very pivotal point in Hal Ashby's
career. Yeah, because he died. A lot of those
movies are... Oh, yeah. Well, no, he made a few
more movies, but they're just not talked about
really. Yeah. But you're right. He did die. Yeah,
I guess that's true. I haven't seen some of these
later 80s things. But that period in the 70s
of like... I guess it starts with The Landlord,
which I've also heard people talk about. Yeah,
which I still haven't seen. That's the one I
haven't seen. Yeah, but The Landlord and The
Last Detail and Shampoo and Harold and Maude
and Being There. I was excited to watch Shampoo
because now I feel like there's only a few more
Hal Ashby movies I need to watch and I could
be a completionist about him. Oh, totally, totally.
But I love The Last Detail. Being There is amazing.
Harold and Maude is... Just like a classic dark
comedy that just has a really unique vibe. Totally.
I mean, I would also suggest Bound for Glory
is awesome. His Woody Guthrie biopic is like
really, really great from that period. And Coming
Home is like, you know, it's a sappy, you know,
movie to make people cry or whatever, but it
does that so well. Some people hate that movie
for being that sappy, but I think it just nails
its thing so hard. But I do think all of these
movies are very different from each other. And
it kind of wasn't until I was watching this and
kind of trying to think about it. Think about
Hal Ashby as an auteur. He doesn't really choose
projects that are similar. And people kind of
talk about him as the type of director who isn't
really an auteur. he does what's best for the
project sort of thing. And I think the truth
kind of lies somewhere in between those, where
I think that there are things that tie all these
movies together, but I think of them more in
thematic ways or his sort of political viewpoint
or something like that, more so than style or
format or choice of subject or genre or anything
like that. I think that he's like... He's one
of these guys who was, you know, a hippie -ass
director in the, you know, early 70s. Where he's
just, like, known for being stoned as fuck all
day long. Just, like, constantly smoking a joint
on set and stuff. And, like, that fits. You know
what I mean? But I think it fits ideologically.
Like, I think it's, like, he sides with those
people and stuff. And so, even though all of
his movies are very different, it all still comes
from, like, a stoner who's kind of sitting there,
like... laughing about it. You know what I mean?
And having a good time. Sure. I don't know. I
would say out of all the other Ashby films I've
seen, Shampoo reminds me the most of The Last
Detail. I can't quite explain why. Okay. There's
something kind of about the sadness of The Last
Detail that I feel, that I really feel in Shampoo
as well. Totally. I mean, I think there's the
same sadness in Harold and Maud and being there.
Well, this kind of feeling of failure by the
end and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being
there, maybe the end changes it, maybe it doesn't.
I had a long discussion with a friend recently
about whether being there is a cynical movie
or an earnest movie. Sure, and that's a movie
we would like to talk about eventually. Sometimes,
sometimes. But I think being there is really
a Peter Sellers project. Peter Sellers was trying
to get that movie made for decades and finally
got that movie made. Shampoo is very much a Hal
Ashby project. I'm sorry, a Warren Beatty project.
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, maybe the last detail
was more Nicholson or something. You know what
I mean? There's definitely other people that
Hal Ashby is like, he's letting them sort of
take center stage, I think, and like adapting
the whole project to fit that sort of aesthetic.
I think that many people will talk about, you
know, Warren Beatty being on set and kind of
being the director on a lot of Warren Beatty's
movies. And maybe that applies to Shampoo, too.
but I do think that like I don't know Hal Ashby
is just like the type of guy who like doesn't
need to be in charge in charge or something like
he's happy to sit back and smoke a joint this
is just the impression I get like you know what
I mean as long as it's making the movie better
he doesn't need to correct the actor and be like
no do it my way he's kind of like oh shit let's
do it that way that sounds fucking cool man like
you know what I mean it's uh So I think that
you can definitely think of it, you know, Shampoo
in Hal Ashby's sort of auteur oeuvre or whatever.
But I think that it's just as easy to think of
it in terms of Warren Beatty being in charge
and like his politics really coming through.
I mean, on top of that, also Robert Towne, the
other writer who also wrote Chinatown and, you
know, tons of stuff. He wrote The Last Detail
as well. Yeah, yeah. He wrote a bunch of the
last season of Mad Men, too, and stuff. Like,
he's a big dude. So he's a guy who's written
a couple, like, sort of, like, politically charged
movies and sort of nuanced movies that have a
lot of different... I mean, even, like, he wrote
Mission Impossible 1 and 2, and, I mean, I guess
he's, like, he's into these kind of, like, conspiratorial
movies. He's also the firm and, like... It's
kind of, it wouldn't be right to say that Robert,
Robert town is making political movies, more
like a political movies, movies that are nuanced
and like have an interesting discussion about
something. Um, your characters aren't necessarily
good people and things like that. Um, and you're
kind of just watching this scenario play out.
And in the end, it's hard to really know how
to feel about it or like who is a, well, I think
in the end, they tend to be like very cynical.
I think everybody is wrong a lot of the time
in, you know, like Chinatown or, you know, Shampoo
specifically, what we're talking about. But even
in Mission Impossible, like these are all very
cynical movies about power structures and sort
of all kind of talking about how the emperor
has no clothes sort of thing. And specifically
Shampoo. There's, well. We can get into this.
We can get into this. I think that, all right,
well, basically, like, I was listening to Warren
Beatty talking about Shampoo. And he was talking
about the concept of promiscuity, right? Like,
and that his character is this promiscuous guy.
And he's talking about promiscuity in, like,
the definitional sense of the term of, like,
making promises and stuff, right? And, like,
promises that he has no real intention of keeping.
Or maybe he does, but he doesn't. He's too banal
to... you know what i mean all he's doing is
going around and making these promises and making
these connections and becoming important to people
whatever but there's kind of nothing behind it
um he was talking um And Beatty was talking about
that as the promiscuity of the left, the promiscuity
of the free love movement and stuff, and the
promiscuity of the counterculture. And his character
sort of being representative of that. And I think
that's kind of the right way to see this movie,
where he is sort of this Democrat going around
and seducing all of these wives and women and
whatever. But he's really no threat to the Republican
establishment. And that's kind of the point in
the end, right? Like, that's why Jack Warden
lets him go. He doesn't beat him up or anything
because he's just not a threat to him at all.
He's like, oh, okay, well, yeah, we can be on
the same team. I'll buy you out. Like, I'm going
to take your woman. Like, I'm not worried. You
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And that is like
an end of the 60s thing. Like, that is a real,
like the ending of this movie and him just kind
of like. being left with nothing because he just
was trying to be everything to you know everybody
all the time he didn't have any sense of self
really um yeah that's that's a real like you
were talking about maybe pairing this movie with
easy ride or pairing this movie with i don't
know there's a bunch of but but i i think that
easy rider and this have a very similar vibe
of like yeah we we blew it dude like that if
this is all this was like it was all about just
like fucking some girls and, like, getting high,
then, like, yeah, if that's all it is, then we
blew it. And I don't think that's his realization
in the end. I think the ending really is, like,
oh, we blew it. But I think the movie begins
with George, Warren Beatty's character, George
Roundy. I think the movie begins with him realizing
that he had blown it, which is why he's sort
of now galvanized to go to the bank. to try to
get a loan so he can start his own business.
That's very, like, capitalist mindset stuff.
Right, right, right. He's trying to survive the
transition. Like, he sees the writing on the
wall for that counterculture. Totally. But, like,
that's the thing is, like, when I got through
it initially, I saw the same thing. I really
thought it was a counterculture, culture, like,
hippie straight conversation. But on the second
viewing, I really felt, like like saying that
George Roundtree represents the Democrats or
the left or something I feel like is a little
misleading I mean he even says like straight
up that like I'm not counterculture I forget
what specifically what word he uses but at the
end of the movie when Lester says is that what
you is that what you think is like being he's
not he says I'm not anti -establishment I'm not
anti -establishment. I'm not anti -establishment.
Yeah, but I think that's... I'm not anti -establishment.
That's a commentary on the left that they're
talking about that is now trying to become establishment.
I think it would be reductionist to say at that
point that the hippies and the left of 1968 don't
have any political motives or that they aren't
trying to live in... by a certain set of ideals
that are anti -establishment. But when you see
him go to that party at the end, it's like, yeah,
this is really what they're all doing. They're
just getting naked in hot tubs and smoking weed.
There's a girl there drinking a can of Coca -Cola.
I feel like that's a choice. On the Criterion
Blu -ray, the two critics who were talking about
it brought this up where they were talking about...
You know, they're at the sort of establishment
party and whatever at first, and then they leave
to go to the kind of cool hip party. And the
cool hip party also has valets and like also
is in this huge giant mansion. And also like
they're literally it's the exact same thing as
the establishment party. And that, I think, is
kind of the point that he is. He is sort of talking
about the lack of commitment to these ideas or
whatever. I mean, that that the left is not.
this thing of these real hippies going out there
trying to change things or whatever. It's really
like a thing that housewives got interested in
because they were seduced by it and they voted
against their husbands and whatever. And, but
you know, now that the sixties are over, they're
willing to kind of, or they're, they're looking
to kind of find a more stable daddy, um, which
they find in Jack Warden and, uh, and Richard
Nixon. Um, exactly. Yeah. The women in this movie
are that sort of left. But they're also just
in it for these same selfish reasons. Nobody
really cares about Warren Beatty any more than
he cares about them. I guess maybe Goldie Hawn
does until she realizes who he is. But Julie
Christie doesn't. She goes off with Lester. Lester.
I guess it all depends on how sincere you believe
Lester is. Because it's funny, I mean, by the
end, you can definitely just say, like, I mean,
even George says about himself, I fucked them
all, and that's all I was doing. It's the greatest
scene in the movie. That scene is so incredible.
Because I just wanted to fuck them. Yeah. And,
like, it's really interesting, this idea that
George would go to beauty school specifically
to be around women because he likes them. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. And that... but that Lester thinks
that this is a sign of him being gay. I really
think the way Lester and George are portrayed
in this movie is interesting because Lester is
also a dude who's committing adultery. You could
say he's a powerful money man, so he's evil by
default or whatever, but he's not really portrayed
as an evil person. No. No, no, no. Lester actually
comes off as a very honest person compared to
George. Completely. When Jackie comes in, the
first scene that Jackie comes in, when George
is in Lester's office and he's pitching him,
barely pitching him the idea of opening a shop,
Jackie comes in. And when Jackie and Lester are
talking about their affair and stuff, Lester's
not like... denying that he has a wife or something
you know like he's just he's just saying here's
the situation i'm a man in this position and
we have to keep it this way because this is just
the reality of things he's like very pragmatic
he's not promising anything He's not promising
anything, exactly, whereas George is going around
being like, yeah, this or that. He's always bullshitting.
Literally everything that's coming out of his
mouth is bullshit. He has to go because this
girl is so crazy that he just needs to help her
and whatever. They all know that he's going to
fuck them, but they all pretend like he's not
because it allows them to have this romantic
idea that's exciting for them because it's not
their boring conservative husband. But it really
is just a flight of fancy. And they don't really
have an interest in it in the end. It's not something
they're willing to commit to because they know
that he's frivolous. And he doesn't provide the
comfort and security of a conservative daddy
America. You know what I mean? Which is what
they actually want, even though this thing allowed
them to feel more free and sexy and cool for
a couple of years. Um, I think that's a really
cynical conversation about the sixties. And it's
interesting because he, well, Beatty started
writing this in 67, um, apparently, which apparently
was, it was called hair at that time. So they,
they, you know, the musical hair came out and
they had to change it to shampoo. But I think
the idea of hair is also something that really
ties into this movie too, in a whole sort of
counterculture culture sort of way. Where like
hair at that time was representative of this
sort of counterculture thing and whatever. And
also that there's sort of a queerness going on
to it. Like, you know what I mean? That it's
feminine to have this long hair, but that that's
being accepted in the 60s as this sort of countercultural
thing. But there's multiple levels happening
there. That I think that's what makes Warren
Beatty's character really interesting in this
movie. Like you said earlier that, you know,
they assume because he's a hairdresser that he's
gay, but he actually got in this to... fuck women
um apparently the character was based on john
peters and uh jay sebring um sebring's like one
of the guys yeah but john peters is the one from
um licorice pizza jay sebring was at like the
manson murders i'm pretty sure yeah jay sebring
was murdered yeah along with sharon tate right
right so these were all just it was a new archetype
sort of thing um and i think that that sort of
This queerness being attached to this sort of
anti -establishment thing is like pretty interestingly
ahead of its time. Because like we talked about
earlier, like in the Velvet Goldmine episode,
the idea of sort of the evolution of these queer
sort of archetypes and the way that those go
out into the culture. um, as sort of acceptable
and whatever. Like, I think that the long hair
thing is an early kind of on both sides of queerness
thing with that. And I think that Beatty's character
like is an ultimate straight man or whatever,
but like using very kind of gay aesthetics. Like
his hair is this big, like, it's not even like
long hippie hair. It's kind of like girly, like
lots of, you know, a hairspray and stuff like.
big beautiful like too much you know too much
effort put into it there's a name for his hairstyle
but i'm not an expert yeah yeah um but yeah very
floofy very like i mean it's almost like um it's
almost like an extension of what like the greasers
were doing in the 50s and stuff it's like when
men started to like grow their hair out a little
bit more and there'd just be more body on the
top of their heads and it'd be like curly and
sort of like done up with tons of you know, grease
and hairspray and whatever. It's very, I don't
know. Kenneth Anger would say that's a pretty
gay thing too. That the greasers have been gay
since then. Sure, there's a hyper -masculinity
thing that's like somehow gay too. But it's also
a youth culture thing. You know, that's children
with money who can think about the way they look
and what they're driving around in and stuff
and have all their needs met and all this shit.
It's like a new, kind of youth culture thing
that comes around where men are starting to focus
on their looks a lot more. Like when you look
at a greaser, it's like they're trying to convey
almost like a badass, I don't care kind of look.
But really, to have a look like that, you have
to spend so much time in front of the mirror
and really like get up early and do all this
shit. Like there's something about the amount
of care and attention it takes to care about
your looks in that way that is more feminine
traditionally or whatever. That a man doesn't
wear perfume necessarily was also a common thing.
That's why you have to call it cologne. It's
too feminine for a man to wear perfume or something.
It's not until the 70s or something, maybe even
the 80s, that they started doing that. I feel
like there's early men's perfumes in the 60s.
Yeah. They're like marketing of cologne to men
starts either like in the sixties, it starts
with like right guard and shit. Um, as like the
early, like spray deodorant stuff. And then through
the, you know, seventies and eighties, they start
the cologne thing. But yeah. Yeah. That sort
of pampering man stuff. That sort of pretty boy
stuff. And that George Roundy is very much like
this pampered male kind of vibe and going to
beauty school so he can be around women. So it's
like, That feels like a newer male strategy.
Especially if you're not gay, if you're very
heterosexual and you just want to sleep with
women. It's like the idea of you being a ballerina,
a male ballerina. Most of them are gay, but there
might be one or two who are like, actually, if
I'm a male ballerina, I'll just be around chicks
all the time. The thing that seems to happen
is that makes them less threatening. George Roundy
is just not... threatening to any of these women.
He's not masculine enough. He's not a daddy.
He's not masculine. He is in this movie, he's
a feminine archetype. And you can see that that
makes them not actually respect him. They push
him around. I don't think George is a good person
or a victim necessarily because he got everything
he asked for. The way the women talk to him in
this movie, he's literally just being, like,
nagged at all sides. And he put himself in that
situation, like, don't get me wrong. But, you
know, he doesn't have the mental capacity. Like,
he's kind of a dumb person. He's a bullshitter
and a pretty dumb guy and kind of innocent because
of that, too. But, like, he doesn't... He doesn't
have the capacity to actually emotionally and
intellectually deal with all these women and
all their problems and all the things they want
from him. And that's something Lester can manage.
Lester actually knows how to manage having multiple
relationships and a multi -billion dollar business
or something and all this other shit. What he
doesn't know how to do is to do his hair. He
doesn't know how to present himself as being
sexy to these girls or whatever. But like that
is a problem that the right has. And the left
is very good at presenting itself and doing its
hair up and doing all these things and making
all the like housewives think that like, oh,
this is a nice thing. This is cute. I like I
like being nice. And I like that they probably
like all the promises that this guy makes. But
like when it gets down to it, you know, this
is not that serious. And that like the hair doesn't
fucking matter. You know what I mean? Yeah. He's
still good. Like Lester is still going to get
the girl. You know what I mean? Yeah. He doesn't
need to. And maybe, and maybe that's like, that's
indicative of this time and this transition in
the culture and stuff. And you know, you said
that there's a gender dynamic thing going on,
which is like, you know, I, I don't make a lot
of money and yet I have a partner and a child
and somebody who chose me. So it's like, but
we're not living in 1968 or whatever. Like, and
you know, in 1968, you're going to find, people
who choose to be with like i don't know like
ken kesey had a wife you know like like there's
always going to be the women who don't need the
stability but it's sort of like a female trope
to need the stability right so you can have kids
and know they'll be taken care of and they can
have a good education and all this kind of stuff
So I think it is talking about that dynamic.
I don't think it's just a female trope, though.
I think it's also like a cultural trope, right?
And I think that it's being expressed through
the female because of that female trope. But
it is like, who do we want as a leader, as a
whole group of people? You know what I mean?
Not just the women. Not just what do the women
want, but what do all of us want? Um, going forward,
do we want to follow a how, uh, how that a Warren
Beatty, like who's just, you know, sexy and fun
and whatever, but like, isn't really ever going
to go anywhere and can't get a loan because he's
counterculture. Um, or do we just want Jack Warden
to be in charge? Because like, there's a guy
who will drive his car to him so that he can
like get to this. Like, you know what I mean?
He's got all of the things. He's so set. Well,
of course we wanted Jack Warden to be in charge,
but I think another thing that the movie sort
of explores is why does Jack Warden have what
he has and George doesn't have what he has? Is
it just that George is frivolous? Because another
thing that's similar about both characters is
that they are both a little dumb. Like, Lester's
not portrayed as like an intellectual genius,
you know? He's actually very innocent and unassuming
when it comes to the fact that George is having
an affair with his wife and daughter and mistress.
Right. He basically catches them. And this happens
too with Lester's wife basically catches George
fucking their daughter. And she knows that's
what he was doing. She knows, but doesn't lean
onto it, doesn't actually call him out or anything.
It makes her more competitive, is what it does.
It makes her want to go fuck him right now. Yeah,
and at the party, in the bathroom, and all this
shit. Just make it more and more dangerous. It's
thrilling. Just make it more and more dangerous
for George. And then she's the one who's upset.
like learning about and that's the other thing
too is like she doesn't catch lester and jackie
red -handed but less the way lester carries himself
around jackie when they all meet just like clues
clues felicia into the fact that they're having
an affair yeah so there's like that woman intuition
thing going on where the women just like know
what's going on they don't need that much information
but the men are just oblivious Yeah. I think
that's totally true because we're talking about
a realm of women. That's like where all of this,
like this whole movie is taking, and Warren Beatty
says it in his final sort of speech where he's
like, you ever fucking listen to them? I listen
to them all fucking day. And it's like, it's
so sort of misogynistic and whatever, but like
kind of like, no, that's, that's, it's his sort
of lack of respect for these women is part of
why. he's so successful with them too you gotta
keep the line going though because the rest of
the line is what most important when he says
you know what they talk about all they talk about
is how some guy fucked them over yeah and and
they're right that's all we want to do like we're
trying to nail them all the time and they like
it and they don't like it i don't know it's the
best dude it's so good yeah because it's like
because it's like the dumbest guy actually like
kind of saying everything you know what i mean
yeah yeah he's like getting to the truth and
like he actually connects to lester in that moment
too like lester This is, like, after Lester,
you know, caught him cheating, like, sleeping
with Jackie. And he shows up the next morning
with goons to presumably beat him up or something.
But they actually have kind of a nice heart -to
-heart. And Lester admits that, like... Because
all the power structure has been... Like, it's...
There's no more facade. And now it's just kind
of like, okay, so now... Now we're in Jack Warden's
territory. now we're in the realm of the men
and the men who have the power and it's not about
jealousy and and social cues and interactions
and proving this or proving that or promising
this or probably it's like no no look like i'm
not scared of you actually turns out like because
you're who you are if you were fucking my wife
basically doesn't matter like i'm gonna go off
with your girl like you know what i mean it's
it's very much like negotiation tactics and like
um and the power of like force and stuff you
know what i mean it's like manly power as opposed
to like the power of like rumors and playing
behind somebody's back and knowing who's sleeping
with who and then using that to get this like
that's where everything else is happening is
these women playing these women games with him
um but when it comes down to it and jack warden
actually knows what's going on it's like oh okay
this has all been woman stuff you're just like
another woman so like okay, nevermind. You know
what I mean? It's like, then I'm not worried
and I can actually like fund your company because
like, maybe it'll get me some more pussy eventually.
I don't like, you know what I mean? But he, he's
not threatened at all because he's basically
like, oh, you're not a man like me. You're not
going to take any of these women. None of them
respect you. Like that's, you know, you're just,
they're sort of dumb blonde. You know what I
mean? The archetypal dumb, like. you know, blonde
girl in the movie is who Warren Beatty is playing.
It's just like the dumbest. No, it's such a,
it's such a refreshing scene, such a leveling
moment. That's sort of unexpected. And I really
liked that. Lester basically admits he's a political
too. Like he mentions Nixon on the screen. He's
like, yeah, maybe he'll be better. I don't know.
They're all jerks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's,
he's not even buying into the politic game and
like the. That's also, like, feminine power.
Like, you know what I mean? All of these promises
and all of this, like, this is all kind of this
stuff that is the world that Warren Beatty lives
in. But, like, he has no real interest in because
there's no solid, like, this is what I get out
of this. Like, you know what I mean? There's
no deal happening. So it's just like, ah, that's
all just bullshit up in the air, you know? Mm
-hmm. Well, do you also remember what Les just
said to his wife at the dinner after she, like...
She calls him out for having an affair. She says,
I hope you like Mrs. Sean. She's going to be
very expensive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Lester
says something along the lines of it's all about
making the world a better place. And she laughs
at him. She thinks that's total bullshit. But
it's interesting that he specifically says that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if George's goal is to fuck
women and just be frivolous, what's Lester's
goal? I mean, in his mind, it might actually
be just to make the world a better place. Right,
right, right. Like, women are just, like, a plaything
on the side. Like, that's not his goal. That's
not what he's here to do. Right. You know? Like,
he could have any woman. He could have affairs.
He could leave them and find someone else. Like,
that's not, you know what I mean? That's not
the thing. The thing is actually about the money
and the power and, like, the influence and changes
he can make upon the world. Right, right, right.
he also is like a little bit of adult. He's definitely
not some political genius. He doesn't care about
any of that. And like he, he, he seems to understand
money in a very pragmatic way. Um, I think he
even mentions that like, it's not worth investing
in George's business because that's like a, that's
a cash business and money just disappears and
something like that. It's not really a good investment.
Right, right, right. Um, and so he has like this
pragmatic way of looking at money and like that
also, makes him banal but I don't know maybe
that's just like maybe he's in love with money
and George is in love with pussy and that's kind
of all it is and that's kind of what the right
is and the left is yeah exactly I mean it's kind
of like what we talked about in the uh the sorry
to bother you episode about just being a libtard
for pussy you know what I mean it's just like
yeah you just say these things and you you know,
pretend to fight against the system and whatever,
and then you can get some cool hip art girl to
like you. It's like, that's Warren Beatty in
this movie. In a different paradigm, there's
not that hip art girl, but it is, you know, the
rich wives of... Well, he's dating an actress.
His girlfriend is an actress. Yeah, exactly,
exactly. I mean, she's doing, like, cigarette
commercials, and she doesn't think Egypt sounds
very glamorous. Yeah. I mean, she doesn't want
to go to Egypt because she doesn't want to leave
him. Because she knows that something's going
on and shit, right? I think that's a big part
of it. I know he's probably going to be cheating
on me, right? I think that's the reason. I think
that's part of it. I think there's a thing that
she's always trying in that relationship and
he's always not trying and that's why he has
the relationship. You know what I mean? I think
that part of it is that she's really dumb. She's
the only one who's dumber than he is. You know
what I mean? Yeah. When she finds out who he
is, it's like, oh, that's actually it. Then never
mind. You can leave now. Yeah, like a couple
of Jill's, Jill's girlfriend, Goldie Hawn, a
couple of her interactions do sort of show those
like female manipulation tactics. Like she is
also a very innocent, unassuming, dumb person.
She's got borderline personality disorder. She's
afraid of being abandoned and is coming up with
catastrophes all the time and being hysterical,
basically. One thing I noticed, though, is that
early in the movie, she's having a discussion
with George about having babies. And she says,
I hear if you don't have a baby before 30, you'll
have a Mongolian idiot. And she says, my friend,
like... doesn't want to bring a baby it'd be
crazy to bring a baby into this world because
it's overpopulated and hypocritical yep yep um
and he's just like can we just talk about this
tomorrow or whatever so it's like clearly she's
in a place where she wants this to get more serious
yeah you know she's bringing up the idea of babies
and like i have a biological clock and all this
stuff but then later on when she's at the party
with the director johnny pope she's going into
this whole thing about how like well, there's
actually just too much to do before having kids
and I want to be self -realized and all this
kind of shit. She's not giving him the same spiel
of like, I have a biological clock and I'd love
to have kids soon because that scares guys away.
So there's like this, you know, there's like
this whole thing of like, she's definitely just
like playing the room in both scenarios. Like,
oh, you're someone who's like. i've been with
so there's potential so i'm gonna start talking
to you about maybes this guy i've only like known
him for a day or two and he's cute and whatever
and i'd like to see where this goes so i'm not
gonna talk about having babies you know right
we're talking about how i'm a free i'm a free
loving woman who wants to have lots of fun experiences
and like could have adventures with you and things
like that right right um giving people what they
want yeah exactly yep But I didn't think about
the Egypt thing being just, like, she didn't
want to leave him, but I think that does make
more sense than what I was thinking. I just kind
of assumed, like, Egypt just didn't sound glamorous
for whatever reason. I feel like Egypt sounds
pretty glamorous. I don't know, like, the pyramids
and shit they were going. I don't think at that
point you, like, thought of Egypt as, like, the
tourist trap of, like, McDonald's next to the
pyramids and, like, a bunch of slums and shit.
I think you thought of it as, like, glorious.
Like, when the Grateful Dead went to Egypt, it
was, like, a... big i don't know i just i feel
like people always thought of egypt as cool until
like i think i still think of egypt as cool i
don't know what what do you think is not glamorous
about egypt do you think it's just like that
she didn't like black people or something but
that like the idea is like scary well yeah it's
in africa it's it's a it's an it's an arab country
it's uh actually quite dangerous right right
to be like a woman there and whatever And then,
yeah, over the years it's become just kind of
like a disgusting tourist trap. But that might
not have been true in 68. But in 68, like, I
can't remember, man. I used to, like, kind of
know my Egypt history. But it's like Egypt has
had a lot of, you know, tumultuous times. It's
very close to the Middle East and, like. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. It, like, you know, shares a border
with Gaza and shit like that. So it's like. It's
always kind of been a – yeah, I mean, well, the
Rafah. The Rafah border is right along Egypt.
This is like the south side of Gaza. Okay. And
so there's always just kind of been a lot of
political turmoil there, and it's not always
been a very safe place to be and whatever. But
I don't know. This is just like – this is my
stupid assumption upon hearing that based on
very little. Because, yeah, I think you're right.
It's probably just like, like Egypt, you're sending
me away. It's just like the way she says Egypt,
you know. I mean, to me, it just played as the
most exotic possible glamorous exotic location
or whatever. But she was like, yeah, I don't
know, though. I've got this thing. I don't know.
And she's like not willing to commit to it because
she wants to talk to Warren Beatty first. And
like. No, that's true. That's true. She does
want to go talk to him first and get his opinion
on it. He doesn't have an opinion. He doesn't
really care. Yeah, she wants him to tell her,
I want you to stay. Exactly. And commit to something.
I want you to stay. Yeah. But you can't even
do that. He doesn't want to do that. He has no
real interest in her. I mean, he's just completely
confused in that moment. The only one he has
interest in is Julie Christie. Really. Like...
And the question is, like, does he even, like,
when he tells her that he loves her, that, like,
she's the only one that he can be himself with
or whatever. The only one he can imagine growing
old with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think that's
real? Because part of me thinks, yeah, she's
the other whore, like, in the movie. Like, you
know what I mean? She's the other one that's
like him, who, like, is going around and cheating,
like, you know, sleeping with people and cheating
on people and playing the game. No, sure, sure.
The other thing I was thinking was that, like,
I feel like Jackie Shaw. represents like a more
anti -establishment period of his life or something
like a time when he was actually having more
adventures and going to more of these kind of
counterculture parties and stuff like that um
they seem like they have a history that's very
connected to that party and the vibes there yeah
and that party sort of brings out something from
their past that they had together, and I think
he's just all wrapped up in that, you know? Yeah,
I can see that. I mean, I thought that the party,
really, the thing that was brought out was just
the dynamics that these women set up, was this
dynamic of this jealousy and this competition
and these games that they're playing that then,
you know, Jackie's just like, no, I'm going to
win. I'm going to suck his dick under the table.
Like, this is going to piss everybody. Like,
you know what I mean? Well, sure. She's just
doing that to piss off Lester, though. yeah yeah
well also Felicia Lee Grant's character like
who I think everybody knows like sure they're
like uh Lee Grant and Julie Christie are like
you know at each other's throats or whatever
over Jack Warden right but they also are doing
the same thing over over George over Warren Beatty
um and I think that her being like okay I'm gonna
go down on Warren Beatty is like just as much
of a fuck you to Felicia as it is to do the same
thing to jack wood like you know what i mean
and i think there really is something in george
that jackie loves you know and it is something
yeah something that's very like attractive to
her i mean the scene where he's doing her hair
in the bathroom and whatever like she's definitely
like kind of falling for him again but she's
also doing the whole no means yes thing and you
know he kind of comes on to her in that moment
And she's like, no, no, no. And he's like, yes,
you know, whatever. And that's like the only
time where you actually see him like go for it.
Whereas like the rest of the movie, women are
kind of just throwing themselves at him. Yeah,
yeah. And he's just like, okay, I have to do
this. Yeah, yeah. Like the daughter, man. I'm
in the middle of fucking this one, so now I have
to go fuck that one. All right, I'll be back.
And yeah, the daughter. Yeah, man, like Carrie
Fisher, man. Like Carrie Fisher's like first
role or whatever, just being a fucking Lolita.
Yeah, yeah. That was great. But yeah, she's just
like, you want to fuck? And she's like, are you
gay? And whatever. She's just trying to find
out. And it's so funny. He's not even willing
to defend his manhood or deny being gay. He's
just like, what is it? What do you want to know?
Yeah, because that gives up power. Like we've
talked about before, man, it's the thing in Days
of Confused of like, I got my own ride, but maybe
I'll see you there. You keep this sort of air
of mystery about you, and you have more power.
And that's what he's doing there, just as a reflex
or whatever. He's like, I don't know. If he was
trying to come out of this girl, that's like,
that might be a problem for you. But it's like,
if you just don't give up any of your cards,
then you're going to end up fucking this girl,
and it won't be a problem. I don't know. You
know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I think it's very
interesting that, like, He understands the dynamics
between the daughter and the mother so much better
than Jack Warden does and stuff because he's
fucked both of them. He hates her. He hates her,
dude. He hates her. He's like, why? He's like,
I don't know. Why the fuck would I know? Do you
ever listen to women? Not he. She hates her.
She hates her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She hates her.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also think that at the
party, Jackie really is going through something
similar with Lester. That Jill is with George.
Like, Jackie also wants Lester to commit to her,
you know. Jackie, like, wants to be included
at parties. That's kind of the whole, like, conflict
right at the beginning when she comes to the
office is, like, I'm just your accessory. And,
like, I can't have any of my friends over. And,
like, it's, like, just such a secret, you know.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's really, like, created
these boundaries and whatever. And she really
wants those boundaries to start opening up. Right.
And that's why he says, like, okay, I'll do something
about tonight. You'll come to this party. I'll
find someone who can bring you. But then at the
party, he's basically just ignoring her the whole
time. She's, like, throwing shit at the back
of his head, and she's just, like, getting more
and more drunk because she's just, like, annoyed
that she's not getting attention from Lester,
you know? And so she kind of, like, uses the
attention she's getting from George, or at least
the history she has with George, because George
really is, like... trying as hard as he can to
not do anything wrong at that party he's actually
like in a place where there's men who could change
his life around him and if he really plays his
cards right with lester he could actually open
his own business and all this stuff and he's
trying to do what lester told him to do which
was to like take care of jackie you know and
be her watch or whatever and then like But Felicia's
also just, like, straight up kisses him, like,
in the room in front of everybody. And I guess
Lester doesn't see that moment. Right, right.
But she doesn't give a fuck, dude. She's, like,
just perfectly willing to be out in the open.
Yep. Drag him to the bathroom to smoke a joint
and have sex there and stuff and just being totally,
like, dangerous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she
has the gall to turn around and say, I hope you
enjoyed Miss Shaw. She's going to be very expensive.
And to, like, then, like... do this whole power
trip over him at the dinner or whatever. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. The dynamics are very interesting.
Another weird part about that moment, too, when
she's saying all that to him, that's when he
says, like, some of us are trying to make the
world a better place or whatever, is the senator,
who's, like, the guest of honor, who, like, starts...
Like, I guess he's a Native American senator.
He's not actually Native American or something.
Yeah. He's some fucking white guy who's doing
some offensive -ass shit that he, like, heard.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's, like, saying some...
There's no way he's even saying any Native American
words. He's just like, hoi, yo, yo, yo, hoi,
yo. Yeah, yeah. He's just like... He does it
for, like, five minutes, too, and everybody else
has got to sit there. Yeah. Yeah, there's something
really bizarre about that moment and the kind
of... I don't know. I don't really have that
one sussed out, but there's something about that
that I find really interesting, even though I
don't know exactly what it's trying to say. I
find it pretty clownish. Yeah, it's pretty clownish.
And they all get evacuated for some reason that
they don't really go into, but I guess there's
some kind of threat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't
know. To their lives, and they all have to, like,
peace out or whatever. Yeah. Lester at the counterculture
party is hilarious, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's like, why not? Hop in the hot tub. Yeah,
he wants to get in the hot tub. He starts following
that topless woman and runs into the window.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He plays it off. He just smiles
and points at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's great.
He's having a really good time. He's so good
in this movie. And he's really likable. He is
really likable, yeah. He's, like, not an evil
guy. He's much more likable than George. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, him at the counterculture
party, the idea that he just, like, is having
a blast, that he doesn't have some sort of, like,
conservative ideals behind him that are like,
oh, this is so below me. This hippie stuff is...
It's like, no, no, he and fucking Warren Beatty
have the same love of pussy. You know what I
mean? It's just that he's not playing the games
of, like, going to that party to make somebody
jealous about this thing and cheat on this person
with that thing. Like, he's... He'll cheat on
people, he'll get pussy, but then he'll just
pay his girlfriend to not be mad about it. He's
got enough power to take care of all of these
things. This is just him on a little vacation
or whatever, whereas this is George's whole life.
This is Warren Beatty's whole life. I mean, Lester
also says to George, you have more freedom, my
life, or whatever. He doesn't go into details,
but he implies that he has less freedom than
George. That George gets to do whatever he wants,
and Lester actually is bound by lots of responsibilities.
Right. Right. Totally. Totally. But George is
bound by lots of promises he's made to lots of
women. And so if he goes to this party that like
could elevate him to some new level, he can't
because he's got all of these things dragging
him down from his past of going around and promising
all these things and never becoming, you know
what I mean? Do you think George actually has
an agenda in that last scene at all? He's bringing
her to that party to make a move on her and to
say, fuck the deal with Lester and I don't care.
I just don't know that he's actually thinking
about anything. I just think he doesn't know
what to do. He's like a bag blown in the breeze,
dude. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he really doesn't
understand anything, too. The scene of him in
the bank. You know, when that scene opens, the
banker is like explaining to him like the rising
interest rates for taking out loans and like
brings up the Federal Housing Authority and like
the rates they just set and has nothing to do
with inflation. Rates rise independently of type
money and whatever. And he's like going on this
little spiel and he can just see in George's
face that like none of it is registering. Yeah.
He just doesn't understand anything this guy
is talking about. It's kind of like Goldie Hawn's
character. would act in that same situation.
You know what I mean? It's like, what, what?
Okay. But like, you'll get me. Can I have a,
you know what I mean? And this scene actually
very much mirrors the scene where Goldie Hawn
is, um, with her producers and, and like turning
down the Egypt job or whatever. It's the whole
thing of like, you make a little bit too much
of a stink and you show too much of your, uh,
your real feelings on something. And then, and
then it shuts down the deal too early when really
you did want to take it. Like what happens with
George is he just starts yelling at the guy.
He just says like, how do you expect to loan
me money if you don't know anything about my
business? And like, and then I'm thinking like,
well, how do you expect him to loan you money
if you don't know anything about interest rates?
But the guy's just like, I don't. And he just
closes the book. It was just like, and then after
that moment, George is like, can I have one of
those financial statement sheets? which is what
he was saying. The banker was just saying that,
George, did you fill out a financial statement
form or whatever, a financial declaration form
or whatever? And George is like, what is all
this shit? You don't know anything about my business?
I have clients. That's my shit. But yeah, and
then him turning around at the end and just being
like, oh, wait. Like, he's not going to, he just
shut this down. Like, I'm not getting a loan.
Okay, I'll take a financial statement for him.
And he doesn't, and he doesn't fill it out. He
throws it away and throws the trash can and,
like, throws the trash can. And puts it back
on. And puts it back on. Very funny. I'm at the
epitome of my life. I've been disgusted with
my life. I love how he says that in the same
breath, too. That's, like, before he goes to
the bank. He's, like, the first scene with, uh.
When he goes back and sees Goldie Hawn for the
first time in the apartment, he's like, things
are going good. I'm going to go to the bank tomorrow,
and I'm at the epitome of my life. And then the
next line, he says, I've been disgusted with
my life. He's like, you just said you were at
the epitome. He's like, well, yeah, I am. So
it's like, yeah, it's very clear he's in this
place where he's like, oh, this is all over.
There's no future for me anymore if I keep doing
this. But it's like we blew it. It's too late.
You're not equipped to go to the bank and get
a loan. You can't become Jack Warden. It's not
going to happen for you. You chose now over later,
and you didn't make any investments. And I bet
you had a really, really great time, but now
you're disgusted with it. Yep, yep. And you're
not with a single person you can imagine growing
old with. And it's a dead end. It's very sad.
It's a dead end for you, Ben. It's a dead end
for the American left already by 75. I like how
the movie begins and ends with Wouldn't It Be
Nice by the Beach Boys. Yeah, yeah. Oh, dude,
I love all the Beatles shit in it, too. It's
like, I love how Ashby just uses Beatles music.
Yeah, they actually have Lucy in the Sky with
Diamonds playing in the last scene, like Sgt.
Pepper's stuff. Yeah, it's just like, I'm sure
it didn't cost anything at that point. And the
whole soundtrack's by Paul Simon, right? Is it?
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Paul Simon did the soundtrack
to this movie. I would like to double check before...
Yeah, Paul Simon was the composer. Wow, I didn't
even notice that. And Simon and Garfunkel's music
was very heavily featured in The Graduate, which
was 68, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, they
wrote that soundtrack too, I'm pretty sure. They
did original music for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The soundtrack was by Simon and Garfunkel, but
they still featured... sound of silence and yeah
a couple songs they had already i think but they
wrote mrs robinson for that movie yeah and um
and some of the interludes and stuff um sure
but i don't know why i was like um i guess the
graduate is like another movie that feels sort
of connected to this um yeah definitely definitely
same era i mean i don't know that it's As much
talking about, well, I don't know, talking about
the Beverly Hills elite in a certain way and
the male -female dynamics and the sort of powerful,
seductress, female entrapment affair scenario
and the thing of like, you know, being with the
mother but actually wanting to be with the daughter
and then in the end running. to, you know, like
the graduate doesn't have like quite as cynical
of an ending because he kind of gets the girl
and he runs away with her. But then there's that
look on their face at the end where it's like,
Oh, what did we just do? Yeah. Um, I feel like
there's a lot of similarities there as well,
but these are all like sixties movies, you know,
all these kinds of late sixties, like movies
about transitioning and growing up and what it
means to be a kid and to have ideals and to become
an adult. to throw away all those ideals for
comfort and security and whatever. And all these
things kind of run through all these movies.
No, totally. Totally. What I think is interesting
though, is shampoo is made by a guy who like
is such a leftist hippie ass dude. Like, you
know what I mean? And to be making something
that's kind of like we've done, like it, there's
like nothing Jack Warden does wrong really. Like,
and Warren Beatty is kind of the worst, like,
you know, and, The idea that Hal Ashby is making
this movie that's kind of so hard on his own
paradigm and so cynical about his side of things
is kind of awesome. Because I don't think that
he actually sides with Jack Warden. I think that
he actually is kind of like, isn't it fucked
that you have to side with Jack Warden? You know
what I mean? It's like, I don't like this capitalist
paradigm thing or whatever, but also... I guess
all of my people are worse. We also have to remember
that this movie was made in 75, so he's looking
back at 68, and there's been some hindsight.
Nixon already won, and the Vietnam shit happened,
and Watergate already happened, right? Right,
right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all the Nixon
stuff is tinged with that idea that this is wrong,
and it leads to that. Yeah, exactly. And that's
kind of the thing. But it's so hard on the other
side of things, too. It's that's the thing. I
really it's very cynical. It's very cynical.
I really like how the clip of Nixon on the television
at the end, he's saying something along the lines
of I want this to be the party that brings us
together. I want this to be the unified party,
the open party. We're going to be open to new
ideas and stuff like that. It's just like it's
like it's the kind of thing that like you don't
ever like. I mean, Nixon obviously had a lot
of speeches, so do all politicians. And, like,
the things that get cherry -picked from Nixon
that we all know about feel like paint a very
different picture than what Nixon actually was
like and a lot of the things he actually did
and said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There just seems
to be an element of that, too, where it's like,
I never would have imagined Nixon making a speech
like, we want to be the open party that's open
to new ideas because he's always kind of just
like... cast as like basically a fascist or whatever
just like an evil president who was just doing
like evil things I think there's started to be
a re -evaluation of Nixon over the past like
several years but yeah well sure sure I mean
I just listened to a pretty great podcast about
like the truth of Watergate I think it was on
Matt and Shane. Yeah, they had some conspiracy
guy on. Yeah, it was interesting. They had some
conspiracy guy on to talk about what really happened
at Watergate. And I don't fucking know, man.
But, like, it was just interesting to hear a
different perspective on how the whole thing
went down. And kind of, like, gives you a really
different perspective of Nixon. Like, I don't
know. He, like, he wasn't even talking about
a lot of the good things Nixon did that actually
did unify. Well, yeah, like ending Vietnam and
stuff, right? He brought China into the fold.
He got us out of Vietnam, didn't he? Nixon did
start to draw us out of Vietnam. So you could
say he was partly responsible. But the war didn't
actually end until 75 after he resigned. Yeah,
right. But whatever, dude. But I've heard Matthew
Weiner talk about Nixon a lot because that's
like his favorite president or whatever. um or
something like he's like obsessed with nixon
um and and just like the idea that nixon got
in trouble for having a safe of like a million
dollars is just kind of like well dude like if
you're a president you don't have a safe of a
million dollars of like hush money then like
what the fuck is this you know what i mean i
expect my president to have a million dollars
of hush money and like whatever and like the
fucking actual watergate thing is just like such
a dude this is like Shit that happened all the
time. It still happens all the time. The idea
of getting somebody for this is like, what do
you think politics is? You don't think they're
spying on each other? That's just part and parcel
with what the fucking thing is. And taking somebody
down for that is kind of like, I don't know,
taking down a president for jaywalking or getting
a prostitute or something. It's like getting
a president off for paying hush money to a...
Porn star. Yeah, do a porn star. That's what
I'm saying. You had to go that far to find something
that this guy did wrong. That's rough, dude.
That's embarrassing for you. Because you were
out there defending your president who got his
dick sucked by his secretary and then lied about
it in the Supreme Court. You know what I mean?
And now it's like, well, this guy 10 years ago
had an incident with a prostitute and then paid
her money not to talk about it or something.
You know what I mean? Okay. Never mind. This
is a whole... It doesn't matter. The point is...
Yeah, this is definitely... Nitpicking these
things is like it has nothing to do with, you
know, morals or whatever. It has to do with the
power structure. But that's why I like an ambiguous,
nuanced expression of these ideas, like in Shampoo.
I like movies where you portray people like Lester
who, in... A lot of movies, like, you know, the
big money people are just portrayed as evil fucks
who just, like, have no redeemable qualities
whatsoever. Yeah, yeah. The thing is, man, I
think Hal Ashby might think he's kind of an evil
fuck, but, like, he's not willing to portray
him as one or something. You know what I mean?
There's something, I don't know. It's like, I
feel like politically Hal Ashby is on the side
of things, but then, like, does something to
make the movie better, which is like, oh, well,
let's not make him a... you know, evil cartoon.
Let's make him a real guy. And it's like, oh,
well, actually, this... Well, he's also trying
to make a comedy. And... Yeah. It really helps
that Lester's just a funny character. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. And, like, he turns Lester into a clown,
which does undermine him in some ways. But in
the end, he still is the powerful guy who has
the money. He's the daddy who the girl goes with,
you know? Yeah. No matter how clownish she made
him look, like... He still had that power, and
he had that in the bag. Exactly. And he also
makes George look like a fucking clown, too.
So, like, they're both just fucking clowns, you
know? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely. And
he's like, yeah, I guess it really is that, like,
the Spider -Man meme where they're all just pointing
at one another. Just like, yeah, you're all Spider
-Man. You're all clowns. You're all just like...
Yep, yep. It's like, oh, it was you. It was you,
too. Oh, we all did this together. Like, it was,
you know? Yeah. I really like when Lester is
telling that blind child story, too. Do you remember
that? It's sort of out of context, but he's just
like, and then all the blind children came out
of the house. I guess they set up a pool or something.
I don't remember the story specifically because
you don't hear it, the whole story. But you get
one small segment of a story where it sounds
like Lester probably donated money to a blind
child. house or like a charity that like takes
care of blind people and he like describes watching
all these blind children run out of a house and
like trip and fall over one another like like
trying to get to this pool or some nice thing
that they set up for them or whatever and him
just like feeling just so satisfied that he'd
done something for these kids while laughing
at them yeah yeah it's really it's funny there's
a lot of moments like that yeah and I don't know
what the deal with this line is too but another
thing I wanted to just like bring up because
it's hilarious is when George says the follicle
never dies yeah yeah yeah I beg to differ my
scalp begs to differ yeah yeah yeah I love him
telling Jack Gordon. He's claiming that washing
your hair is actually good for it. Right, right,
right. I think it's pretty well known by now
that actually if you wash your hair with the
products we have pretty consistently, it actually
does a lot of damage to your hair over time.
But it may be better for the follicles to massage
the scalp. But it might be better for the follicle,
and the follicle can always, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You have to get all the dead skin off. My dad
is the least bald of all of his brothers. And
he claims it's because he, like, scratches his
head every day with his, what he, like, does
his shampoo. He, like, really scratches in there.
Oh, wow. Maybe there's something to it then.
That's his claim. He's like, no, you gotta stimulate
it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But, yeah, the other,
like, small notes I wanted to make were just
observations, like, how often people say, great.
Like, you're great, honey. He says, like, you're
great, honey, to, like, all the women. Just people
saying, like, everything's great. Everyone's
great. Everything's great. Everything's so great
in the movie. Okay, okay. I just like the idea
that that word is used so much. I could dig it.
I liked how Felicia was saying, your numbers,
when she's talking to George about all of the
women he sleeps with. It's like, your numbers,
your numbers. He doesn't understand her at first.
He's like, what? Your numbers, your numbers.
Right, right, right. Because I also feel like
that's the kind of thing that she would say to
Lester. Your numbers, your numbers, the money,
you know, like. But then I guess the other thing
was I wanted to just give a shout out to the
black hair washer whose son is in the military.
Yeah, yeah. Who dies? No, her son doesn't die.
It's the gay hairdresser whose son dies. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he doesn't
die in combat. He dies like some... He gets killed
in a car accident or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so I thought that was another interesting
thing. There's not many black characters in this
movie, and your one black character is the black
hair washer in the back, and he has a little
bit of rapport with her. He's like, how's your
son doing and stuff? She's the only one he actually
kind of talks to when he gets there, and everyone
else he's just trying to either ignore or bounce
around. Yeah, because he's not trying to sleep
with her because she's black. That could be it.
But I like just the shout -out of the sort of
like, black hair washer who has a son in the
military in vietnam you know because like they
they be the ones who are getting drafted you
know right right well i think that's there's
the the actual suffering of the people around
that like totally almost completely doesn't touch
this movie but This is happening in like a crisis
time. This is white people first world problems.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like you do see like, oh
no, just like just outside of this movie, there
are people actually paying consequences for the
things that we're seeing. And that's kind of
where I think Hal Ashby's sort of viewpoint sort
of comes through. You know what I mean? Where
like this movie may side with one over the other,
but like this is in a... political game sphere
of this like world that barely even really exists
like you know what i mean it's like this fantasy
world that the rich and powerful like exist in
and whatever the left and the right and the blah
blah blah but like the real people who are paying
for this like are still there like right outside
of that like and they're the real majority um
and and i like how little of that there is in
that movie because it allows that tiny bit to
kind of come through it's like oh This movie's
really ignoring a lot of stuff. It's also something
I think is great. It reminded me of... In Mad
Men, too. It reminded me of Mad Men. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Where, like, the occasional... The counterculture
and the black people are not the focus of the
story. It's all the white people and the people
at the top of the tree. What was the expression,
the people at the top of the tree? It's a story
about what happens to the top of the tree when
it starts to shake. Mm -hmm. I could see that.
But, yeah, and then the last thing would just
be, like, when Norman, the gay salon owner...
calls him back to be like, why aren't you collecting
money for the coffee? And George kind of pretends
that he has morals in this moment. I guess this
is one of those moments where he's sort of expressing
how he feels like it's wrong to nickel and dime
people like that in a way. But really, it's probably
just he's lazy and he doesn't want to do it and
he's overwhelmed and just doesn't feel like it.
And plus, asking all the women for the coffee
money is not sexy. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. But I love how Norm is just like, if you
don't learn how to nickel and dime people, you're
not going to get anywhere. Right. And you might
as well just be speaking to the left. Like, yeah,
yeah, yeah. And he's the gay guy. He's like,
you know, I like how there's sort of like this
gay character who's telling him he needs to be
a capitalist and nickel and dime people. But
that gay character also has a son. So likely
he has a wife. That's true. That could be true.
The question is, is he just maybe the same as
Warren Beatty? Maybe he's one step beyond Warren
Beatty of being really gay? So maybe he fucks
ten times as many women? Yeah, George just doesn't
realize he's gay yet. No, no, I'm saying this
guy, the guy who's in charge of the salon, who
clearly is gay, maybe he isn't. Maybe that's
the cover. That Warren Beatty's got of like,
oh, well, he's a hairdresser. He's gay. This
guy's like, oh, well, he talks like this and
uses the hands and does everything. So he's obviously
gay. And it's like, no, no, that guy's fucking
even more girls. That guy is like Warren Beatty
times 10. He's so gay. He's got like five sons.
He's got a kid and a wife and like several. It's
like that's real success. Of course, of course.
Yeah, you never know, though. I think there's
the ambiguity there. It's an interesting thing
to introduce him. and then say that he has a
son. If he has a son that was in the military,
because I think that was also implied, but I'm
not positive. I think his son was also in the
military, and that's why it's kind of ironic
that he doesn't die in the military. He gets
out of his tour of duty and then dies in a car
accident or something. Right, right. Just the
irony of that. But if he has a son, his son must
be at least 18, which means he had him back in
the early 50s. Right, right. And at that time,
if you were a gay guy, you were fucking women
and pretending to be straight, you know? You
were, like, trying to have a wife and all that
stuff. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. But, yeah, at this point,
I've gone through my notes. I feel like I've
said most of what I want to say about this movie.
It's a super interesting movie. And it's really
funny. I just didn't get much into just, like,
feelings about the movie and just my enjoyment
of watching it. But I really like Shampoo a lot.
It's really hardcore. Yeah, I enjoyed my second
watch of it a lot. Yeah, there's, like, a lot
of details. It's really expertly paced in the
performances and the way, like, people are talking.
It has, like, a manic, almost, like, Woody Allen
sort of, like, dialogue vibe to it where, like,
lots of people talk and talk over one another
a little bit. And there's, like, a lot of, like,
information and chaos a lot of the time. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Like almost an Altman vibe, you could
say. Yeah, yeah. Well, he was also, well, Altman
was McCabe and Mrs. Miller, right? Yeah. Yeah,
so that was also like a BD movie. Yep, yep. But
yeah, don't have much more to say. How about
you, man? Nah, let's take a break. You want to
move on to Red Rocket? Sound good, sound good.
I really got to pee, man. I really got to pee.
All right, let's go. All righty. Back from the
break. All right. So Red Rocket? Yeah, yeah,
Red Rocket. Yeah, so it was initially my idea
to talk about Shampoo, and then we had to figure
out something we could pair it with. And you
had never seen Red Rocket. It's a movie I have
been wanting to talk to you about. And for whatever
reason, just seemed like a good movie to pair
with Shampoo. And I guess we'll kind of work
through some of the reasons. Why together? Totally.
Totally. I felt this pairing. I think it makes
a lot of sense. I think both of these movies
are kind of about these walking penises. That's
true. But I think what's interesting is both
of them kind of have these walking penises in
a sort of traditionally feminine role. And that's,
I don't know. It's a weird specific thing that
both of these movies are doing. So I thought
that worked. Yeah. To me, I thought it was interesting
that they were both kind of these apolitical
movies. I don't really get the sense that Red
Rocket has very specific politics. It's just
another movie that's about politics. I think
of Shampoo as a political movie, definitely.
I don't know if I think it comes out with a...
coherent statement or whatever, but it's definitely,
to me, it's about politics. It's about the politics
of power and male -female dynamics, left -right
dynamics, culture -counterculture dynamics, that
sort of thing, which I think of as all sort of
political ideas. But I guess part of it just
depends on how you define politics. I think what's
interesting in Shampoo is you could think of
Warren Beatty's character as being somebody who
is residing in the world of politics and stuff
whereas um lester jack warden's character is
somebody who's sort of above those politics like
you said when he's talking about nixon he's like
ah who knows you know they're all shitheads or
whatever the politics don't really matter to
him because he has real power that are kind of
above politics but i kind of think of that as
a political idea too sure yeah so you know i
think that's that's part of it and i think the
red rocket It's hard to say that it has a political
statement or anything, but I think there's...
I don't know. I don't really think of it as nearly
as political a movie as I think of Shampoo. But
it does seem to think it is sometimes. Every
time you see these Trump flags and election things
in that movie, it's very similar to Shampoo having
that background of the election. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. I think Shampoo only takes place on one
night and I think maybe a little bit the next
morning. Right. Whereas Red Rocket takes place
over the course of maybe a few months or something.
But it is most certainly taking place in 2016
during the 2016 presidential election. Right.
You can see Trump signs. They're watching Trump
debate Hillary at one point. And then they're
watching the Republican National Convention at
one point. Right. Where Trump is speaking at.
And yeah, I like how both movies are sort of
taking place in the environment of a political
transition that's really big. Right. Right. And
I think they both focus on male -female dynamics.
I would agree that Red Rocket is not as much
about a hippie -straight conversation. It's not
as much about the culture -counterculture. I
think that there's something to be said for a
counterculture of pornography or something, but
yeah, it's hard to... Well, I think we can get
into it. I'm just saying, as a starting point,
I feel Red Rocket is dealing with a single world,
like all the inhabitants of Texas City in the
Gulf. That's a certain type, and they're all
kind of of that world. Whether they're men or
women or whatever, it's not a movie that tries
to have a character that's on the left and a
character that's on the right and the differences
between them and the similarities between them.
Right, right. It's more just about the... I don't
even know what you call it. Would you say...
First of all, Mikey and his... Do you think these
are Trump voters? Do you think the movie is trying
to say that this is a land of Trump? These are
people who want Trump to be in office. But we
never once show Lexi and Lil rah -rah -ing at
the television for Trump or something. Or saying,
lock her up to Hillary. They're basically just
zombies watching the TV. And they don't seem
to be having any real reaction to it, whatever.
Yeah, I mean, we see Lonnie's character, who's
dressing like he's doing Stolen Valor. um stuff
and trying to represent a certain idea of american
masculinity or whatever that he can't quite encapsulate
that seems to be on that sort of wavelength um
but to me to me i think the way you're talking
about this like the the trump stuff in red rocket
feels kind of like the um soldier stuff in shampoo
you know what i mean the sun that died or the
sun that's in like the black sun that's in the
military and that sort of thing where it's like
there is real consequences outside of this movie
to the thing that's happening in this movie.
In Shampoo, we're looking at this, like, very
specific Beverly Hills elite paradigm and how
that's kind of being corrupted by the left and
whatever so that they, you know, for a couple
of years in the 60s went along with this leftist
thing and whatever, but now they're going to
go back to the right. In Red Rocket, we're looking
at the Trump America and the way that they're
living and the paradigms they exist in. And it
seems to be trying to make this political point
with the Trump thing of, like, oh, and there's
the consequences of this that is that these,
you know, people are electing dumb people or
something. But, like, it doesn't seem to be actually
ideologically connected to that at all. So that
seems to me to be something that, like, maybe
Sean Baker thought he was saying something by
doing that, but, like, he isn't. Or maybe it's
just there for texture. Yeah. Like, I don't know.
But the thing is, like, it's just I understand
how like a liberal could take this as like, oh,
well, these are these trashy people and they,
you know, live in this way. And so they're dumb
about politics and vote against their interests
and whatever. And that's, you know, these are
the people that have caused this new political
shift. And they're all kind of these dumb people.
Like, I don't know. But the movie really. seems
separate from that like it seems like it's like
well he wanted to do that in the meta thing and
then he started talking about this guy and this
family and this girlfriend and whatever and it
becomes about that like and that's something
that's kind of similar to me with the Florida
Project and stuff where like the Florida Project
seems to be this like and you can look at the
Florida Project and think about all of its connections
to Disney and capitalism and America and all
this stuff and like and it works but I feel like
when you're watching the florida project it's
really about watching what's her name the girl
and like her friends playing and stuff like the
the what the movie focuses on is not like always
trying to make a point in every scene or whatever
it's kind of like a much more human almost um
um documentary sort of sort of aesthetic that
i think really works and gets gets you really
into this world or whatever but it also doesn't
feel like it's just an allegory or works as well
as an allegory um in the end it's kind of more
of a experience or whatever and then you can
take a step back from the experience and think
about oh well this is you know in the Florida
project this is the slums that exist right next
to Disneyland you know and it's the idea of like
the success of capitalism versus the reality
of the success of capitalism and you can think
about it in this meta thing but what does that
have to do with the scene where Lonnie's spitting
on the car like is that her name not Lonnie fucking
I don't know where the little girl's spitting
on the car um not really anything that's kind
of a you know And I think similarly in Red Rocket,
like there are a lot of these scenes that are
like really great in the context of the story
and stuff, but not necessarily a metaphor. But
the meta thing I do think is set up as this sort
of discussion of Trump's and Eric. I think that's
why Lonnie is a character in the movie. Well,
even Mikey himself, his connection to the porn
industry and his lust for the 17 year old girl
and is sort of like. dream and desire to have
like power and agency over his life and to have
his like to have his bitch by his side that he
sort of like controls her life and whatever like
there's there's something there's something about
the trump ethos that like fits really nicely
into his character as well um I mean, I feel
like, like you said, like people, liberals might
see Mikey as like a portrayal of everything that's
wrong with masculinity and everything that's
wrong about a person like Trump or whatever.
But the movie doesn't necessarily make him a
villain and also casts all the characters around
him in a similar kind of light. So you're not
really dealing with a narrative where like you
have this bad man. taking advantage of all these
good women or something. And I think the movie
is more so doing a thing where we are now living
in a time when this man feels like he has no
masculinity, feels like he has no power, feels
like he has to sort of grovel to these women
so he can have a place to stay and somewhere
to work and all this stuff. He's in a bit of
a longhouse. Yeah, he's kind of shitty and he
doesn't always treat them very well verbally
and stuff like that. And he is just playing the
game. He's trying to get what he wants. He's
trying to get whatever he can out of the situation
and then leave them behind when there's something
he can make for himself on the horizon. Right.
It's ultimate selfishness. But, like, all they
want out of him is money, too. And all they want
out of him, like, Lexi just wants, she wants
a daddy. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. Lexi has,
like. If he brings the money, everything's good.
Mm -hmm. Yeah, if he brings the money, everything's
good. But, like, as it goes on and they start
sleeping together again, you know, they're still
married. They never got divorced. But I guess
he's been gone for, like, 15 years or some shit,
like 17 years. Right. And just, like, showing
up again. But, like, once he's staying there
and he's making the money and they're having
sex again, she actually tries to entertain the
idea that he would become the father of her child
because I guess she has a kid that she's not
allowed to see. Right, right. Probably because
she's a drug addict and a prostitute and whoever
she had the kid with got custody. And maybe she
thinks that if Mikey... No, or didn't get custody.
No, no, no. The guy, because he says, where's
the dad in all this? Why doesn't he step up?
So the dad doesn't have custody either. He's
in an orphanage. He has foster care or whatever.
So the kid got taken away. It's not Mikey's kid,
but she thinks, yeah, she's trying to sort of
ensnare him in this scenario where he'd be daddy
and he would pay the bills and they could show
a court that they had a proper family unit and
maybe she'd get the kid back and whatever. So
for her, it's also just like this. using him
in, like, as a pawn to get something else she
wants, which is her kid. And, like, he's using
all them as a way to just get, like, his kid
that he fucks and takes back to Hollywood to
make a ton of money with. Right, right. But he
doesn't, though, right? And so, like, I mean,
that's ambiguous, but I doubt he does. And also,
I don't know that that look he gives at the end
is, you know what I mean? Like, that's one of,
like... what the fuck have I done? Yeah, yeah,
yeah. But is that a what the fuck have I done?
I've finally gotten what I want? Because I don't
even, I don't feel like that's as powerful as,
I don't know. Like there's, you know, the idea
of the end of the Florida Project is just this
fantasy scene. It's shot differently than everything
else in the movie and it's got music where nothing
else in the movie has music or whatever. So you
know that it's not real. They couldn't get into
fucking Disneyland without tickets. Like there's,
you know what I mean? And similarly, like, the
end of this movie where she comes out and the
music's playing backwards and shit and it's all
tripped out and she just looks like a porn star
and, like, it doesn't look like a real house
or anything. Like, it just looks like this crazy
porn set thing. Like, not even a porn set, just
like a crazy, I don't know, dollhouse set or
something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That, it feels to
me so, like, obviously this isn't how this goes.
Like, yeah, she's willing to stand by it. No,
of course not. I mean, he also doesn't have the
money, man. He doesn't have money anymore. He
doesn't really have a way to make $200. Yeah,
he's got a couple hundred bucks. It doesn't matter.
He had a few grand and they took it from him
and then Leandria... But they didn't even take
it from him, right? That was money that he owed
them and he was like, just give it back. I was
going to leave tomorrow. And they're like, no.
You were going to leave with our money tomorrow?
No, fuck you. I don't understand what the deal
was. Why does he have thousands of dollars and
then he's like, I was going to leave tomorrow.
They weren't just robbing him, were they? I think
that's $3 ,000 that he actually earned because
he has to be making a cut. off like like otherwise
he wouldn't be working for them like he has to
be making money doing that and and like imagining
that he would amass like three thousand dollars
over the course of like two months or something
is reasonable selling drugs i guess because he
is also paying all of their rent and stuff no
sure but he but it seems to me like maybe he
could amass a thousand dollars or like 500 whatever
they leave him with and instead like get a couple
thousand dollars worth of credit and stuff and
then he's i don't know whatever you can make
a shitload of money on drugs yeah yeah it's true
it's true that's you can make a shitload of money
in a very short i mean it's weed and it's i guess
2016 i guess 2016 you could still make money
on weed yeah yeah i guess certain areas like
especially texas texas golf that's not an area
that's legalizing weed right right right i think
what's the other thing that was interesting speaking
of texas is you notice um when they're out fishing,
Lonnie tells them, oh, those are the Texas killing
fields. You know what the Texas killing fields
are? Uh, no. It's apparently like a small, like,
like area of Texas, um, where like dozens and
dozens of bodies have been found. Um, all of
like women, women aged like 14 to 25 or something.
Um, yeah, that's, and I think they like never
caught the guy or the many guys or something
like, you know what I mean? But there's, There's
something in there about that that's kind of
thrown in there. But again, a lot of these things
that feel like they could be written in in the
pre -production stage to be making some sort
of point about toxic masculinity and Trump and
stuff, they don't feel like that's how it plays
out in the movie. So it doesn't kind of connect
with everything. Because I agree. I think that
all the women in this movie are using him. And
I think that he really doesn't have any real
power. He's also, I think, similarly to Warren
Beatty's character in Shampoo, he's playing a
traditionally feminine role where he's just,
like, the pretty guy. You know what I mean? And,
like, he goes to this girl's house or whatever,
he promises his stuff, and, like, it's, like,
largely it's that she just wants to fuck him,
like, too. Like, you know what I mean? It's largely
just the sexual dynamics and stuff. And same
with, like... strawberry where I think that in
the end I think if you think in the end strawberries
going with him like I just don't buy that I feel
like strawberry is like not like when she says
like I'm gonna have a fucked up summer I'm not
trying to have a fucked up life and stuff it's
like that seems like a pretty you know resolved
I'm not going with you, dude. This is fun, but
you're a loser. I'm never going to introduce
you to my parents. I'm never going to run away
with you to California. But then I guess when
she's swept up in the moment, she quits her job.
I think that his big mistake as a toxic man is
that he lets her go home. If he was going to
leave, he should have left right then when she
was still on board because no way you're going
to give her 24 hours of going back to her house
and staying with her mom and whatever and then
deciding, no, I'm going to go out tomorrow. No
way. There's no way. not actually interested
in making that mistake and he actually is and
that's kind of like the thing that i think is
interesting about their kind of sexual dynamics
is like he really needs her like this is what
he's like pinning his whole future on and stuff
is like this idea that this girl is going to
be faithful to him not faithful sexually or whatever
but like faithful to this to his pimping or whatever
um yeah he wants her to be his bottom bitch or
whatever you know what i mean but suitcase pimp
Yeah, suitcase pimp. But she has so much more
power than him. And she could just decide, oh,
no, never mind. And then he's completely lost.
Whereas, like, if he decides never mind, she's
not, I mean, she's not willing to give him the
video on his phone, right? When he's like, let's
film us having sex. She's like, well, how about
we do it on my phone? He's like, what, you don't
trust me? He's like, yeah, dude, she doesn't
trust you. Obviously. She knows that what you're
going to do is you're going to release that so
that then she already has porn out there. So
then why not? Because the consequences have already
happened. Everybody in your hometown has already
seen you fuck. So why not go with me to California
and do more of that? Sure, yeah. But instead
she's like, no, no, no. I'm not going to give
in here. And I'm not going to give in here. I'm
going to keep having fun and fuck just like I
did with that other guy. It's nothing serious.
It's just I fuck him sometimes. And she doesn't
seem to be being warped by this relationship.
She seems to be somewhat steadfast in this and
stuff. Now, the movie in the end, sort of, when
she quits the job, that already seems like manic
and almost a dream sequence. But I buy that that's
happening. I don't buy that the end could happen
in this documentary reality that they've set
up. And I don't know what that actually says
about Trump. I think it just ends up being a
more interesting kind of nuanced conversation
about male -female dynamics and stuff that maybe
resonate with Trump. I think it says about as
much about Trump as Shampoo says about Nixon,
man. I think in the end, Lester doesn't represent
Nixon just like Mikey doesn't represent Trump.
Right, right. He represents a certain archetype.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, because everything
Lester and George are doing has nothing to do
with Nixon or, like, the politics of the left
or the right, you know? Right. Like we said,
for George, it's just about getting fucking pussy,
man. Right. And for Lester, it's about making
money and making changes. And like you said,
he's above the politics. Like, he can make shit
happen regardless of who the president is. Right.
And it almost doesn't matter because they're
both going to support capitalism and whatever.
Right. And so, like, yeah, I don't think, like,
I think the presence of Nixon in Shampoo is similar
to the presence of Trump in Red Rocket, where
it really is just, like, an environmental touch
that speaks more to the environment these characters
exist in, but that their personal lives have
very little to do with that environment directly,
even though it all has to do with it indirectly.
Right, right. It's all kind of metaphorically
about similar things that resonate. I mean, watching
Red Rocket could be like, so this is why people
vote for Trump, right? Because there's people
like this, you know? Like, when you look at this
disgusting, like, oil field environment that
these people live in, it's almost like... It
reminded me so much of Red Desert, dude. The,
like, the flame at the top of the... It represents
all the, like, dehumanization of capitalism and
just, like, all the disgusting, like, byproduct
of it and whatever. You're dealing with all these
white trash people, especially the white trash
man. That's another thing I feel like Sean Baker
has been doing. And I didn't see Tangerine, so
I don't know how much that one applies. Or the
new one that just won the jury prize at Cannes.
What about it? You haven't seen that one either.
No, I haven't seen that one. I think all of these
have been about sex workers, though. The Florida
Project slightly more indirectly. The Florida
Project had, yeah. Well, here's the other thing
I wanted to bring up about Shampoo, too. Do you
think that Jackie was a sex worker? That was
implied, right? I mean... Like, because he says
to her, like, I don't have sex with people for
money. I do it for fun. And then she's, like,
offended by that. Yeah, but that's... He is saying
she's a sex worker because she is dating Lester.
Like, he's saying, like, you're fucking Lester
for money. I don't fuck people for money. I fuck
them for fun. I don't think it's implying that
she is a street -walking prostitute. I think
he's just like, you're a whore and you're different
from me because I'm not doing it for power. I'm
doing it for fun or something because I'm such
a free -spirited liberal or whatever. It's like,
no, dude, you're doing it for power, too. You're
just bad at it. But I guess what you were saying
is that they're all saying that all the Sean
Baker movies are about prostitutes. That is expanding
the definition of prostitute beyond being a literal
cash -in -hand sex worker. No, I think specifically,
Sean Baker, all of these have been literal cash
-in -hand sex workers. I think Tangerine is a
sex worker. I haven't seen that one either. Well,
no, but I'm just saying, isn't Mikey a sex worker?
Isn't he basically having sex to keep the roof
over his head? Yeah, but porn actors are sex
workers. It's part of that. No, I know he's literally
a sex worker, too, because he's in porn. I got
you. I'm just saying expand the definition and
how that, like, applies to George and how that
applies to Jackie and applies to all these people
who are using sex to try and get power or, like,
using it as a currency or whatever it is. Exactly.
Exactly. I mean, George is not successfully using
sex as a currency. He's, like, just cashing out
all the time. Right. You know, he doesn't know
how to leverage sexual attention to get something
he wants because he just blows the load immediately.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas like Mikey has more
understanding of how to like utilize like his
sexual prowess to get things he wants. Right,
right. Which is a very feminine role. Like you
said, he's kind of like using sex and his like
sex appeal and his confidence in himself and
all of that. to sort of maneuver through all
of it and get what he wants, even though he actually
has no raw power in any of these situations.
The only raw power he has is that humongous penis.
Exactly, yeah. Which, in the end, when we see
it, it's clownish. I mean, it's a repeat of the
Boogie Nights thing, you know, but seeing the
actual penis is, like, so funny. You know what
I mean? It's like, oh, that's freakish and weird.
That's hilarious. Like, it's, I don't know. It
doesn't feel like it's very it's like disempowering
to see dude running with his giant swinging penis
as opposed to being like, oh, OK. He's got such
a cool. I get it. It's like, no, no, no. It's
he's a fucking clown. That's why all of this
has been like this is he's just this walking.
giant penis and it's almost similar to warren
baity finally breaking down and shampoo and being
like i fucked all of them i vote out what do
you want from me or whatever it's like him running
with a giant penis is the same thing it's like
oh okay i get it now you're just uh that's all
you want like you don't have any brain cells
you just have a giant penis um and that's been
running all this all along but his giant penis
is kind of like you know a giant rack like you
know what I mean it's like just the bombshell
walking into some trailer home and whatever and
being able to get you know whatever she wants
because she's super like he just walks into the
trailer home with a giant penis it's it's a feminine
role traditionally for sure yeah but that connects
to shampoo and him being in a feminine role as
well and working in this political side of things
where it's it's about deception and Social interaction
stuff and whatever, as opposed to the, you know,
real power. All of the power that Mikey has in
this movie is just like goodwill of other people
that he's tricking into giving him goodwill.
And he doesn't even really trick them, I think,
is kind of the point in the end, unless you think
Strawberry goes with him. But I don't think that's
possible. No, he's not. He's not fooling anybody
in the end. Exactly. Um, just like, you know,
George isn't fooling anybody in the end of shampoo.
Yeah. It's just like, they all know he's not
serious. Yeah. The only person who thinks, uh,
Marky Mark at the end of boogie nights. Yeah.
Like Marky Mark at the end of boogie nights.
I mean, the only person that thinks, um, Mikey
is serious as Lonnie, man. Yeah. Yeah. That's
true. That's true. Which may tie into some sort
of Trump dynamic. I don't know. But I think Lonnie's
an interesting character. I think it's interesting
to include him in this movie because he is sort
of this, like, incel, modern, loser male archetype
thing. And the idea that he wants so badly to
be more masculine and cool and whatever, and
that he, like, he, like, goes along with everything
Mikey says, even though, like, he kind of seems
to be skeeved out by it sometimes. Like, you
know what I mean? Yeah. When Mikey's talking
about Strawberry and stuff, he's like... He's
like, oh, cool. Like, all right. He's like, this
guy's cooler than me, but he seems intimidated,
too. Like, he's just kind of like, oh. Yeah,
yeah. It's like, I don't think he would do that.
You know? Like, I think he's probably, like,
a better guy. And, like, he could have slept
with fucking Lexi properly plenty of times. Like,
you know what I mean? Lexi's going out when,
you know, when Mikey, like, stops giving him
attention, she goes out and she's like, okay,
I'm going to go get attention from this incel
loser and whatever. And, like... that's yeah
yeah if he wasn't that incel loser he probably
could be like oh just come over and fuck and
she probably would have but instead he's just
like she gets her she gets off on him being so
intimidated that he doesn't do anything and he
gets off on just being a loot like i don't know
there's something really pathetic about him yeah
yeah and he he actually loved he does like they
caused that giant traffic accident and he he
takes the fall he doesn't throw mikey under the
bus yeah yeah um Which is the craziest fucking
scene in that movie. Like I, I, I like, yeah,
I love that that happens. It's such a like, what
the fuck in the middle of the movie? Um, kind
of for no reason. Like it doesn't need to happen.
Like what, why, why would you, why would you
say that that's in that movie? Like what, what
changes there? I guess. Well, I mean, it definitely,
it shows that, you know, Mikey definitely has
a concern about his like, consequences for his
actions catching up with him and ruining his
life and whatever um and just like how joyous
he is when he learns that like Lonnie just completely
took the fall like he does not care about Lonnie
at all yeah yeah yeah and he never did there's
something Trump there's something Trumpian about
it too of just kind of like you go around causing
all this destruction and mayhem but never held
accountable for it right right right like build
a bunch of failing hotels that collapse as soon
as like yeah yeah yeah or like invest in real
estate deals for things that don't work and then
you collect insurance money and whatever and
that's how you make your fortune yeah that i
could i could see making that sort of connection
but again like it's it doesn't it yeah it feels
like a it feels like a stretch like But I feel
like that's kind of the same with other Sean
Baker stuff. Like at least with the Florida project,
the only other one I've seen where it's like,
I, there's so much to talk about in that movie,
but like not that much of it's really in that
movie. Like it's all kind of there as like a
texture thing that allows you to talk about it
and then be like, Oh, this is really all kind
of on subject, but like none of the actual scenes
are, or I don't know. But then when you think,
I don't know. Well, you're right there. Like
I, I think you're right that a lot of it's texture,
but it's texture that somehow speaks and creates
all these connections. But I don't think it's
trying to explicitly say that. It's a slice -of
-life movie that's an experience, like you said,
that's kind of showing you this lifestyle and
the people who exist in it. And part of that
is trying to just be like, he has a thing about
realism. He's trying to create a documentary
-style realism thing. wants to acknowledge the
existence of real things in the environment.
But making a movie in 2021 and setting it in
2016 is just as much of a choice as making a
movie in 1975 and making it about 1968. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Both of these movies
are retrospectively looking back. They're talking
about the previous presidential election. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, talking about this pivotal
transitional moment. telling a small story within
the context of that bigger transitional moment.
And like, and I don't know, like there's something
really rhymes there and something really speaks
there, but like putting it to words and yeah,
saying how it specifically plays out in every
scene, I think is difficult, more difficult to
do with this one than shampoo. But even in shampoo,
it's like, I think not every little scene in
shampoo connects to. Yeah, you could compare
the endings, for sure. Kind of like we blew at
endings. Yeah, kind of, but here's the, like,
I think that Shampoo, you can look at the ending
and think about kind of how this is representative
of Nixon, right? Like we talked about. Warren
Beatty, the left, is losing because he promised
all these things, these people who want to choose
Nixon and that type of power over the type of
power that Warren Beatty sort of embodies. But
in this one, like in the end, like all of the
women sort of went out and he's kind of left
to his own. Like, you know what I mean? I mean,
we're left with a fantasy sequence. We're left
with a fantasy sequence. But like right after
the scene where he loses everything and all of
the women have been conspiring against him all
along and shit. And like that, like. they weren't
giving up their cards they were playing the social
game far better than he was and using that sort
of feminine power more powerfully than he was
and collaborating behind the scenes in order
to like have real power over him you know but
like i don't know what that has to say about
the trump election like you know what i mean
it's like it's not like hillary won or something
it's not like there's like i don't I see how
it works in Shampoo, but in Red Rocket it kind
of seems like, well, it ended up being the ending
that this movie needed, but I don't really know
why that connects to this texture. I think both
are talking about the failure of the left and
the move towards the right because of that. I
think in a broad sense, I think that's what the
backdrop is for each one. So you think that Mikey
represents the same thing as Warren Beatty? No,
I think, like I said, I don't think there is
a Warren Beatty, I don't think there is a George
Lester dynamic in Red Rocket, but I do think
Red Rocket is painting the picture of a culture
that has become less masculine. has been sort
of like... And this comes more from leftism.
This comes more from the left and the Obama years
and all this stuff because we're talking about
the end of that. We're talking about how Mikey
is a man who's tried to make his way in the world
by being a prostitute but has failed at even
being that and has to go back home with his tail
between his legs and then gets absolutely no
respect from any of the women in his life and
stuff. You're just... Like he's the man who will
go vote for Trump because he wants to take the
power back. You know, he's, it's like, I think
so. And so is Lonnie. Yeah. And so is Lonnie.
And you're, you're, you're portraying this move
to the right. And it's not like, it's not like,
um, in the end, like. It doesn't feel the same.
Like, in the end of Shampoo, it's like, well,
Lester wins, so that's Nixon winning, and that's
the right winning and stuff like that. In Red
Rock, it's just far more, like, ambiguous, and
it's not necessarily saying, like, I mean, we
know Trump wins. That's for one thing. Right.
That is the win that's coming because of all
this. So it's like, oh, so this is how the men
are being treated. Look at this man's life, and
who do you think he's going to vote for, you
know? but like but there are more women though
it's like and who are they voting for and and
they're voting for trump too man i guess that's
so what is the dynamic what are we yeah you know
it's just yeah i guess we're just in the trump
world and so it's all representative of that
i mean you you could you could argue that you
know the situation that these women in like a
lot of that is because of the way the culture
was previously in the Obama years and stuff like
that. I don't know. I think it's interesting
to have like a, like the most powerful character
in the movie is probably a black woman, right?
The, the drug dealer, she's kind of a master
of her world and she's sort of a master of the
community, you know, she's providing the drugs
to the community. She's like, and you could,
you could see, you see like a drug Lord as someone
who's actually keeping the community down and
like, Keeping them anesthetized. She's just a
weed lord. Yeah, yeah, she's just a weed lord.
She doesn't even want to sell weed to the hardhats,
apparently, because for some reason. And her
right -hand man is her daughter. And her son.
It's a family operation. Yeah, but her son's
totally shat on compared to her daughter. Her
daughter gets no shit. I know. Her daughter runs
that show and like talks down and then like the,
her brothers too and whatever, even though they're
like bigger than her and whatever, you know,
it's like. Yeah. Yeah. They have no power. None
of the men in this movie have any respect. That
is absolutely a dynamic of this movie. Yeah.
Yeah. It's just that that is how this movie is.
We're talking about a world in which women have
the power, but they're still the victims and
the men don't see themselves as victims, but
they have no power. And like, I don't know. It's.
Well, that I think is what's interesting when
we talk about Strawberry's character, man, is,
like, there is, like, that relationship is...
Yeah, well, then there's Strawberry. It's very
easy to think of this relationship as, like,
yeah, it's a grooming situation where he finds
a young girl and he grooms her and, like, you
know, turns her to porn and whatever. It's, like,
through these various steps, he inches her along
the way or whatever. Thing is, like, I don't
think we see him inch her all the way. I think
that by the end, there's really nothing... Other
than her quitting her job to make you think that
maybe this is going to happen. I think that it's
pretty clear in all the other interactions that
she's having a fun fucking senior year sex romp
with an older guy, which is what any teenage
girl probably wants. And she broke up with her
quote -unquote high school boyfriend or whatever.
Yeah, I mean, she didn't even care about that
guy. She's just like... She's discovering her
power and sexuality, which is a thing that women
do earlier than men and stuff. Girls in their
teenage years are, I feel like, maybe today,
I don't know if it's always the case, but I feel
less likely to just want to marry their first
boyfriend. You know what I mean? Fall in love.
I feel like there's often a... I don't know.
It's a... less conservative time when it comes
to that. Um, and that, I mean, I certainly don't
see strawberry as a victim. Like it's very hard
to see strawberry as a person who doesn't have
agency. Right. And like, she's smarter than Mikey.
Oh, she's definitely smarter than Mikey. And
I think that she's definitely like toying with
Mikey. And I think that she's definitely doing
to Mikey, what Mikey does to Lottie and like
what the girls do to Mikey. You know what I mean?
Which is just kind of like use this person for
as long as they're usable and then fucking completely
forget about them because that was fun. And like,
what's next? Yeah. You've outlived your usefulness.
You can go. Right. Right. And I think that, you
know, it's interesting to see a Lolita situation
depicted where it's very much about like. This
girl has a lot of agency, actually. It is kind
of completely in control and toying with this
guy whose whole life is sort of tied up in this
lie that she's telling him. You know what I mean?
But, like, she's fucking 17. So, like, why is
she going to stick by it? You know what I mean?
She wants to go on and fuck the other kid from
her class next. Like, you're just the next thing
in a, like, series of, like, self -discoveries
or whatever. That, like, none of these people
care about each other in this movie, dude. There
is no love in this movie. These are all a bunch
of, like, self -interested, like, I mean, you
could see it as Randian virtue of selfishness
and the failures of that. But, like, it kind
of is, like, a libertarian view of relationships
or something as transactional and, like, manipulative.
It's all transactional, yeah. Yeah, yeah. There's
no love. I mean, you could say a lot of that
about Lolita, too, which was another movie that
definitely, like, the DNA of Lolita is definitely
in this movie. Yeah. I mean, Mikey is not quite
as lame as Humbert Humbert, but he's still a
cuck, basically, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like... And, yeah, when, you know, she goes to
Camp Climax for girls and... fucking is clearly
fucking all the other boys at camp. Like Humbert's
upset. She's not upset. Like she doesn't care.
You know what I mean? She's just like a fun teenager
having sex. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, uh, no, I
don't, I don't know that that's, I, I'd like
to actually read Lolita and kind of see the differences
between what Kubrick's doing in that movie and
what, you know, is actually in the book and stuff.
But, um, But yeah, I think that's definitely
the dynamic in this movie. I think that it's
kind of hard in the end to see her as like a
victim. I think that when she plays the song
and stuff, it's kind of like, oh no, she's got
like more going on. You know what I mean? And
I like. Yeah, yeah. She can play, she can play
piano. Yeah, there's just like, she has hidden
talents. Like, you know what I mean? It's not,
it's not that great of a talent or anything.
It's not like an incredible, but it's like. Nah,
she actually, she shouldn't just do porn, dude.
Like, and she knows it, right? She can play,
she can play piano. She could be an actress.
She could, I mean, yeah, exactly. She could do,
she could be Jill in Shampoo, you know? There's
something pretty, like, interesting about that
in a meta way, too. How Strawberry was, like,
this is, like, her first movie. She's, like,
basically an unknown. And they found her, and,
like, she has to do a nude scene. where she's,
like, topless playing a 17 -year -old, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something about that,
too, that just feels, like, in a meta way sort
of exploitative or whatever. Well, so apparently,
according to the trivia section on IMDb, she
was, like, so anxious about her sex scene that
she, like, apparently, what it says is, she was
so anxious about how her sex scene would play
out that she paused it to shake out her nerves
with a little dance and ended up breaking her
foot. She said, the movie's there, paws on my
breast, staring at me. I threw up on the carpet
and kept watching, man. That tells you how much
I needed to see it. Five days later, she was
on the red carpet in Cannes for the film's premiere
in a wheelchair with a cast on her foot. So apparently
she had a lot of anxiety surrounding this sort
of scene or whatever. Hearing that makes her
sound really cool and together for some reason.
Like a person who really cares about what she's
doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's a big
moment for you to do a nude scene and it's your
first movie and whatever. She's like 20 -something
or I don't know. She's significantly older than
the age she's playing. But she does such an amazing
job and yeah, I really love that scene where
she plays Bye Bye Bye by NSYNC topless on a piano.
And that choice too. Having the movie begin with
NSYNC's Bye Bye Bye, I don't entirely have that
understood either, but it's such an aesthetically
good choice for some reason. A lot of the movie
works in that way. Some of that is just like,
I think that's his auteur thing. I've seen two
of his movies, and I've heard that some of the
other ones end the same way, at least with this
sort of fantasy sequence or whatever. um it's
anachronistic to like use an NSYNC song for 2016
and whatever just like yeah yeah but it's the
same with using the choice but what's the song
they use in a Florida project um celebrate good
times come on the 80s song or whatever yeah it's
like totally I don't know it's in that one it
plays as ironic and stuff but there's Yeah, I
don't know. That, to me, in the ending of this
movie, felt like, ah, well, this is your auteur
touch or whatever, but I've kind of already seen
this. I kind of wish you gave us a different
ending or something than just doing the Florida
Project's ending again. But I guess this kind
of worked just as well as the Florida Project's
ending worked and whatever. It's like, I don't
know. I don't want to criticize him for being
an auteur or whatever, but it's like... Do you
think because the movie comes out in 2021, that
Sean Baker was already aware of the results of
the 2020 election and that there's sort of a
book ending about like how this is when he won,
but he's about to lose. Exactly. Just like Nixon.
Bye bye bye. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think
that's, I think that's part of it is we're watching
the, you know, rise of a failure thing or whatever.
Um, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Both movies really
do like, bookend the presidency's rise and fall.
I didn't even really think about that until it
just got said now, but that's kind of interesting.
Is that the same amount of years? So like 2016
to 2021? That's five years? Yeah, pretty close.
And then 68 to 75? It's a little bit more. It's
close. But yeah, as far as Susanna's son being
very nervous about her sex scene playing and
whatever, I also think there's like porn of her
sucking dick on the internet. So I don't know
if that's fake, but I, I like looked it up, but
I thought I found some that seemed pretty real.
So I, cause I was wondering if she was like an
actual porn actress and that's how he got, I
guess like he just like saw her on the street
at some point, like coming out of a movie premiere
or something and like said, I want to use you
in something and didn't call her until years
later. What is something I. Sounds like what
Mikey would do. Yeah, exactly. No, no. No, exactly.
There's something really weird. There's something
weird and exploitative about it. But that's why
I was looking up like, is she from, did she do
porn? Is that like, is this part of this reality
thing? Because in his earlier movies, like these
people were kind of real people and stuff. But
I, I mean, I found some shit. I'm not sure if
it's real, but I think it's real. I don't know
why someone would fake it that well. Like, you
know what I mean? So maybe there's some reality
there too. That's like, well, then why was she
so? Worried about her boobs being on screen.
Well, I guess it's a bigger movie. I don't know.
You know what I mean? Yeah. I guess another thing
that would be, like, a stretch to assume about
the movie, but, like, could be a thing, is just,
like, how reliable is Mikey when he tells the
story of his life? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was he really
a porn star? You know, like, or did he just do
a couple scenes? Like, what was he doing for
17 years? He won best oral. I don't think that's...
Well, he won an AVA, but he never had to prove
it or anything. He never had to show anyone.
Yeah, yeah, but, I mean... But I think he does,
like, show somebody one of his scenes, and they're
like, that's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you often
tell people to look him up and stuff. Like, I
believe that he was a porn star. I don't think
that's a lie. I don't think he's the biggest
porn star that ever lived, but who is? Like,
you know what I mean? Especially as a guy. Like,
that's... Especially as a guy doing straight
porn, you know? I mean, maybe he was doing gay
porn, too, but... Maybe he was doing gay porn,
too, yeah. Who knows? That's where the money's
at. It's the gay for pay. Gay for pay. Yeah.
That's the stuff. There just seems something
weird about, a little off about his whole trajectory.
It's like, the kind of hope he puts into Strawberry
being some kind of moneymaker for him is a little
weird and misleading. I don't know. It's like,
is that all that it takes? Is that you just need
to find... your girl and like pimp her up and
make her a huge success um like the whole like
the whole pimping aspect like he couldn't just
make it in porn as an actor doing his thing he
came back home with his tail between his legs
right like it wasn't working out for him right
this idea that he's just gonna bring this girl
out there and make her some star and not lose
her also just Yeah, not a loser too. It just
seems like such a fantasy to begin with. He seems
delusional. I mean, Lexi left him for some guy
at Brazzers or something. What did he say? At
Brazzers? They kept referencing real porn things
and stuff. It's very funny. I didn't realize
that Lexi was his girl, that she was doing porn
with him. Is that definitely established? Yeah,
yeah, yeah. That's a lot he's talking about.
early on like that they used to watch lexi's
videos at like all of the you know sleepover
parties or whatever you know like he used to
jerk off to her videos and stuff and whatever
like yeah okay yeah that's right yeah yeah yeah
yeah she's also a porn star yeah but he brought
her out to la and then she left um to be with
some other she started turning tricks did she
well that's what her mom says she doesn't want
her to go out there anymore it's dangerous like
that's what she says to him like are you really
in it yeah are you really like here for us and
whatever right because that's my baby and i don't
want her to get hurt and like she i don't want
to turn tricks anymore and whatever yeah yeah
that's right that's right but i'm talking about
when she was in la um i was just talking about
her going from his like him being in charge and
doing their porn together or whatever and then
like she went off with some other guy and then
he said like after two months she was doing like
crack again or something I don't know she was
on drugs again and like you know I had her off
drugs for like three years out there or whatever
and then like as soon as I leave she's fucking
you know Um, now who knows how reliable that
story is? Like, that's the thing we're saying.
Like, who, like, do you know how reliable a narrator
is? Well, I know that in every one of his stories,
he's a victim of like somebody else. Like the
first scene when he comes home and he's just
like talking about how. this person fucked him
over and he was supposed to stay here, but then
the cops came, whatever. And they're just like,
why were you arrested? And they're like, yeah,
I know, there's more to this story. Like, this
is not, he's just rambling right now like a crazy
person, but he's not telling us anything because,
yeah. No, that's it right there. That's a good
point, is that scene where it's like, I think
that captures Mikey, which is like, he might
be like using some elements of truth, but he's
a bullshitter, just like George. Yeah, totally.
He's just telling a bunch of bullshit to get
his way and to figure out a way to gain sympathy
or whatever it is. Lexi doesn't believe him,
but she's still willing to let him stay there
and fuck him and maybe get some money out of
it. You know what I mean? Well, the money is
what changes things. They want him to leave,
but he actually brings home some money and he
makes it rain on them or whatever and they're
like, okay, cool. Right, right. He's like, I
got the money. And they're like, okay, cool.
Like, they just, like, they change in an instant.
Yep. Like, okay, you got the money. Cool. Yep.
But there's still a freebasing crack outside.
And she's like, she can't get her medications
or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So
we need a freebase crack because she can't get
any meds. Right, right. Thanks, Obama. So, yeah,
I mean, I, the thing I was sort of thinking was,
like, Red Rocket would be. a pretty interesting
spiritual sequel to shampoo in general like i
could kind of imagine i mean they're almost the
same movie in a lot of ways man they're they're
like they're so i'm saying i could almost imagine
um i could almost imagine george like because
like i mean like things don't work out with lester
and he doesn't get money he doesn't get to start
his business and he's and then i the idea of
him actually getting involved in porn in the
70s like uh just like kind of makes sense to
me because like well i only have one talent i
love to fuck chicks so i guess that's all i have
and and he just kind of continues to do that
but he finds a way to make money from it which
is to go into the porn industry as it starts
to burgeon up in the 70s and then um you know
fails and has to reconnect with a long lost lover
or wife years later and still just doing the
same old bullshit where he's trying to find a
way to something better, but he's totally delusional
and doesn't have any real power, any real way
to do it. And kind of is just that person, you
know, like... A bullshit artist. A politician.
A prostitute. A prostitute, a politician, a bullshit
artist, exactly. And that right there, yeah,
that sort of unifies both movies in a broad way.
Yeah, one's a little more political than the
other. Yeah. Yeah. But they, but I mean, the
political like connections between the two are
pretty, like pretty interesting though. You're
right. You're right about the, like, this is
a period piece from a couple of years ago. It
happens on the election day. It's about, there's
like, it's, they are very, very connected, um,
weirdly, but yeah, I think, I think it's harder
to see more into the gender dynamic stuff. Yeah,
no, I think you're right. I think you're right.
But I also think that's what's more in the air
in 2016, you know, just like the straight conversation
is what's in the air in 68. That was this whole
last year's... Yeah, well, in 2021 when this
movie's made, yeah. But last year, too, 2023's,
like, whole fucking Oscar, like, every single
movie in the Academy Awards last year was about
that subject. Like, it was just about gender
dynamics. Even, like... Yeah, I don't know. Even
Oppenheimer and stuff. Like, even, you know,
all of them. No, yeah, you're right. Like, it's
really in the air now. And like you said, yeah,
it was all part of the Academy Awards in 2023.
But, I mean, in a way, like, it's like the May
-December thing we were talking about, about
the looking back to see the seeds of something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. um totally another another
recent period piece like uh about about a period
piece about a recent time um yeah yeah and finding
the seeds of like what we're all talking about
in the culture now and i think both shampoo and
red rocket do that it's like it's 1975 and we're
gonna go back to 68 to be able to like look at
the seeds of how we got here how we failed to
get to this point yeah yeah Yeah. And similarly
in Red Rocket, let's go back to 2016 to see the
seeds of how we got to this. Right. And does
it in a way that's very slice of life and about
the personal struggles of people as opposed to
some kind of big, overambitious, macro, political
thriller thing. You know what I mean? Right,
right, right. Like traffic. Traffic. Like traffic.
Or a contagion. contagion of trump sure yeah
exactly the contagion of trump yeah yeah um I
also liked how not self -serious it was, though.
Like, the movie is basically very dark and, like,
miserable, except that it's so much fun. Like,
you never feel any... Yeah, yeah, Red Rocket.
Like, it's not... Like, if you're thinking about
what it's talking about and what it's actually
depicting and stuff, it's, like, these really
sad people and these really pathetic, like, situations
just, like, fucking each other. But, like...
In every single scene, it's funny. He's very
endearing. He's really dumb. Specifically, connecting
this to Shampoo, too. Warren Beatty has always
been great at playing a dumb guy. I think in
real life, he's a smart enough guy to know that
he can't be a smart enough guy. You know what
I mean? He does a really good job of not being
in on the joke or something. But the movie being,
like, Bullworth is an example of, like, he's
playing, like, a dorky dude, but, like, everything
he says comes off as dumb, kind of, and funny,
but, like, also brilliant. Like, I don't know.
Another movie that sort of criticizes the left.
Oh, yeah, yeah. Huge, huge attack on the left,
Bullworth. Love that movie. But Warren Beatty
is a huge leftist. Like, you know, it's... Yeah,
exactly. He's a communist, basically. Like, it's,
you know, so... I, I love it. Like, I don't know.
Well, I guess, well, I guess, I guess the thing
is like being a, um, you love what attack? I
love that attack. I love an attack on the left
coming from like further left, you know, it's,
well, you're right. Because if you're, if you're
a true, if you're a true leftist, like our friend
heavy, who's going to join us on the next pod.
Um, You are like anti -capitalism, like you're
anti -statist. You're like anti -both political
parties. Right, right. Liberalism is not. You're
anti -democrat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leftism. Liberalism
is not leftism. And so they get conflated a lot,
especially nowadays when people say, oh, the
left, the left, the left. I conflate them a lot,
yes. Yeah, yeah. I do that. Well, it's like when
we say the left these days, like usually we're
talking about liberals. When we talk about wokeism
and all this kind of bullshit, it's like real
leftists are not actually being represented in
the culture that frequently. Right. Because there
are people who just want to tear everything down.
Right. But neither of these movies portray real
leftists. No, no, no. But what do they believe?
That's the thing. I don't know. This goes back
to the thing of are these political movies or
apolitical movies or whatever? We agreed that
both George and Lester in Shampoo end up kind
of not giving a fuck about politics. That's not
what it's necessarily about for them. And they're
not choosing teams necessarily in any kind of
deep heartfelt way. And everyone in Red Rocket
is similar. It's like, yeah, I actually ultimately
don't really know who these people would vote
for. I feel like they're all going to vote for
Trump. I feel like none of them are going to
vote. Or none of them are going to vote. They're
actually just totally checked out. It's hard
to see the Trump connection except for these
are the people that we forgot about. Because
of these forgotten people, we get Trump or something.
That's the same as Florida Project. Maybe that's
not even the thing. A lot of things. I don't
know. Well, George definitely didn't vote for
Nixon. I mean, you don't see him go to the polls
on election day. No, but they're at a benefit
for, like, the Nixon thing. No, yeah, and those
people are Republicans, but they also go to a
counterculture party, and those people aren't
voting for Nixon. They might not even be voting
at all either. Right, right. Like, just talking
about the apolitical nature of, you know, the
hippie movement in general, like, I don't know.
Maybe I'm ignorant, and I don't know a whole
shitload about it, but... I'm under the impression
that that wasn't a get -out -to -vote movement.
It was more of a, like, fuck -the -whole -system
movement. And so they're not going to go out
and vote for Hubert Humphrey or whatever. There's
different things, right? Like, at the time, there's
the Civil Rights Movement and shit, and there's
also the SDS, and then there's, like, the Weather
Underground eventually in the 70s that's, like,
the, like, super, you know, terrorist student
movement. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, like,
those all were new... powerful political and
there's the Black Panthers and stuff at that
point like there's a lot of sort of political
pushes and stuff but those are not the same people
as yeah like uh Ken Kesey or uh or uh what's
his name the Harvard guy Timothy Leary. Timothy
Leary or whatever. Those real acid guru guys
are like the Grateful Dead or something. You
know what I mean? Whatever other countercultural
– yeah, those people are not saying how important
it is to go out and vote often. I don't think
you hear a lot of interviews with Jimi Hendrix
where he's talking about needing to vote and
stuff. I don't think that's kind of the interest.
I could be wrong about... Maybe there are interviews
with some of these people, but that's... Well,
the Black Panthers weren't a get -out -to -vote
thing either, even though they're political.
It's about, like, fuck that system. It doesn't
work for us, so we're creating our own system.
That's a conservative movement. I mean, the Black
Panthers is a conservative movement. The government
needs to give us our guns. Out of all those movements,
the Black Panthers is the one that was working
the most. They actually had some kind of structure
and understanding of the thing they were fighting
against. actually trying to come up with something
that would like coexist with it to some degree
but give them more power in their communities
and stuff right which is why you know it couldn't
be allowed to exist and then they you know started
creating anti -gun laws to take down the black
you could let the hippies exist because like
they're not actually like a political movement
with any political power like they're not and
in fact you can leverage them to show that like
everything is chaotic and there's lots of unrest
and so vote for me i'm richard nixon law and
order Yeah. Totally. But it's, but it's all those
other things that are causing unrest too. It's,
you know, it's the, it's the black Panthers causing
unrest that are getting white America scared
too. And it's any of these movements that kind
of end up with me, but it is like, I don't know.
It is these countercultural movements. I think
that's, yeah, that's kind of what we see through
Warren Beatty's character. Now he's not a black
Panther. You know what I mean? Black Panther
would be. a different paradigm, much more conservative
paradigm than these others, but the leftist sort
of SDS, like get out and vote kids stuff that
is connected with like the anti -Vietnam stuff
and all of that. Um, that was a like significant
political force at the time. Um, but like not
as significant as conservative America, the,
you know, the silent majority is as Nixon called
them. Yeah. And are they still the silent majority
in 2016? It's a very different paradigm, man.
I like, I think it's, it's weird like to, to
try and look at red rockets. Like, cause yeah,
none of these people are voting. Like who you
think these people, maybe they are. Maybe the,
maybe the mom is going like, okay, we got to
go down and vote today. And she brings the daughter
and they go vote. Like, but I just like, I doubt
it. I don't know. It's like. Yeah, but I'm also
not, like, entirely convinced that Lester and
George voted. You know, even though they go to
that party, and George is invited to it from
Lester, but just because Lester's there, like,
schmoozing and stuff, because, like, he even
describes the party as that. Like, it's a work
thing for him. Like, he's not going because he
believes in anything. He's going there because
he has to, like, talk to some investors and shit
like that. Yeah, well, that's how he gains power
is through these sorts of parties, yeah. And
they make sure to note there's never a moment.
It's election day, so they would have to go to
the polls that day. There's no note of I'm going
to the polls or that's something that has to
be done today. They seem very busy. You're watching
their entire day play out. Yeah, they don't seem
to have time for the polls. What their concern
is is not getting to the polls. But who knows,
man? Who knows? Maybe Lester woke up early and
cast a vote for Nixon or whatever. But I think
both movies are similarly dealing with characters
who are a lot more apolitical in practice, or
at least in their heart, in their values. Maybe
in practice they do political things or they
choose a team or whatever they need to do to
survive and gain power in whatever moment. But
really it's just about that shit. It's just about
survival. Which is the same with all the relationships
in Red Rocket, yeah. Yeah. Sex and power underlying
the money and politics. Yeah, but I think, I
mean, sex and these relationships and these social
situations, that sort of power is not the real
power. The real power is the power that Lester
has. Right. Like that's, that's the real power
in red rocket. There's no real power, I think.
Cause it's all just sort of this relationships
and social interactions thing. It's like, it's
completely existing in that world of women that
like, uh, that, uh, Warren Beatty is talking
about in the shampoo. It was just kind of like,
do you even listen to them? Cause I'm in it all
day. And like, I, and all they ever talk about
is this. So I, I think that it's interesting
that red rocket, like he exists as kind of like
this feminine thing, but in a world where there
is no sort of masculine power, you know, maybe
the only, like, like that's like, um, the Lester
of red rocket is Lonnie. Like that's what's changed
politically. You know what I mean? Is like, that's
the conservative in this movie. It's like, that's
the guy who like, Would be the Lester, but, like,
now he's just, like, living in his parents' house
and, like, he's probably a virgin. You know what
I mean? And, like, he's going out pretending
to be a soldier and stuff. He's, like, the least
masculine, pathetic. And then he kills a bunch
of people by accident just by being an idiot.
It's, like, ridiculous. You know what I mean?
It's just, like, he's a fucking mess. Like, it's
the worst. I think Mikey grabs the steering wheel,
but yes. Does he grab the steering wheel? It's
definitely Mikey's fault. I don't know, man.
I think Mikey says right here that he just does
it. But I don't know. You sure? He doesn't grab
the wheel? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. It's one
of the two. Well, Mikey puts the pressure on
him for sure. He's like, go, go, go. It's right
here. It's that last minute thing. Yeah. But
yeah, I don't know. About power, though, if you
want to have a broader conversation before we
wrap up here. I kind of think politics is, like,
when you say Lester has the true power, the raw
power, what is that? It's not political power.
It's just the power of money. I think that's,
yeah. He's got fuck you money. He's got fuck
you money. Yeah. He's just got enough money,
and the money puts you above the politics, right?
Yeah, I mean, fuck you money, the concept of
fuck you money is, like, you got a problem? Fuck
you. And you just throw the money at it. You
know what I mean? And if you go back to like
ancient times, that translates to just having
more goods, more food, just more things you can
provide to your harem. Right. Yeah. But it's
also, it's also the power of force, man. It's
like that money, money is representative of force.
Like you were talking in an earlier episode about
like companies taking each other over or whatever,
that it's all financial, but really it's like
all done. at gunpoint like not really at gunpoint
but it's like it's all these companies are being
forced to do these things that they don't it's
it's not seduction it's force um and i think
that that's sort of like it's a stick yeah um
lester's whole world is force and like george
is existing in this seduction you know realm
um so george is the carrot and lester's the stick
I guess, I guess, I guess, but it's not, he doesn't
have to be the state. Lester's the carrot too,
man. It's like, I, he just has real power. Whereas
like all of these other things below him are
like social dynamics playing out or whatever
in this world that like Lester has created for
his harem, like essentially. And like basically
Beatty's just part of that harem. And you know,
in the end he may get invested in, right? Like
maybe. He says he's going to call him the next
day. Yeah. And then he picks up. He decides to
leave his wife and rides off in the sunset with
Jackie. It's kind of ambiguous whether or not
that deal is going to actually play out. I don't
believe it will, personally. Just like I don't
believe Mikey's going to take Strawberry to L
.A. and shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I concur. I concur.
He could just say it just to say it. He could
just say, yeah, I'll call you tomorrow just to
get him off his case. Like, yeah, like Strawberry,
exactly. Yeah, sure. Because, like, the problem
is not agreeing to it right then. And, like,
you know, George just completely just has nothing
to say in any of his negotiations with Lester
anyway. We don't even really hear George making
a case for his business or anything. It's all
the women making a case. Like Jackie walks in,
it's like, oh, he's such a great hairdresser.
It's like, well, my wife told me you were a great
hairdresser and Jackie told me you were a great
hairdresser. So I trust my women. I guess. He's
a great hairdresser because he rubs their heads
on his crotch. That's true. He does. That's why
he's a great hairdresser. You know what I mean?
I mean, I guess the hairstyles are of the time
and would have been seen as good hairstyles,
right? He gives both of the girls the same haircut,
which is funny. Having both of Lester's girls
have both been given the same haircut by the
same guy that they're both sleeping with. It's
very funny. Exactly, yeah. I mean, there is something
like kind of sexual about not sexual. There's
something kind of intimate about getting a haircut.
Yeah. Yeah. When someone's touching your neck
and your head and they're talking to you and
they're trying to make you look good and like
give you sex appeal and whatever. There's just
something very intimate about that. And if you're
if you're a woman and like, you know, a lot of
salons at that time, I guess you're most likely
going to have like a female hairdresser. And
so it might be more rare to have a man, and then
there's actual sexual tension there that's heightened
because he's touching you and listening to you,
I guess, even more importantly. Yeah. Like, there's
a man who listens to me about all the problems
in my life, and, yeah, why wouldn't he be very
sexually attractive to all of them? Mm -hmm.
But anyway, man, we should probably start to
wrap this thing up. going on a little while here
but yeah got any uh anything else to say about
red rocket maybe but at this at this point probably
should just wrap it up and i think i think we
made some fun connections and talked about the
movies themselves into themselves in a way that
was revealing at least to me so as always thank
you definitely very connected But I don't know.
Would you say that's that, Magus Man? That's
that. That's that.