Hi and welcome to Be The Flagship with our podcast host Jeff Parsons.
This is where we tackle the day-to-day talent management challenges you face.
And now over to our host.
Take it away, Jeff.
Well, hello and welcome to Be The Flagship.
I'm your host Jeff Parsons and this is where we explore all things operations.
So if you're an operational leader, this podcast is for you.
And this is episode two of the series called HR and Operations.
And so joining us again this week is guest speaker Anthony Pantaleon from Telexis.
So thank you Anthony again for joining us today.
And why don't we start by allowing you to tell our listeners how they can reach you
should they have any questions about anything we cover in this podcast.
Oh sure.
Well thank you very much for the introduction Jeff and thank you for this opportunity to
be a part of your podcast.
I know everyone's on LinkedIn so just looking for Anthony Pantaleon.
There aren't too many people with Pantaleon on LinkedIn so I think you'll find me pretty
easily.
Well again, thanks Anthony.
I really appreciate your contribution to thought leadership in the area of operations and operational
success.
So you know our goal is to provide thought leadership for operations leaders and listeners
and so that they can drive up organizational effectiveness, achieve organizational excellence
which drives business success because at the end of the day everyone within the organization
no matter what their role should be in lockstep to achieve that goal.
And that's through your processes, it's through your systems, it's through your equipment
and the heart of that organization would be your people.
One of the common things I hear is that I won't accede at the table.
I'm discouraged because they just think that I do payroll, they just think that I take
care of benefits you know and I want a seat at the table.
And part of the challenge in getting that seat at the table is being perceived by the
executive team of that you're bringing true value to the organization.
Not that payroll doesn't bring value or benefits administration doesn't bring value but that's
very transactional in nature.
You can train just about anybody to push a button in you know in ADP or one of those
other systems and do payroll or take care of benefits and sign someone up for benefits.
It doesn't take a high degree of HR expertise and that's why it's oftentimes outsourced
right because it's very transactional in nature.
So the real values in the gray area you know and as it relates to people and you know I've
always and when I've mentored and coached HR people you know one of the first things
I tell them is there are basically two types of HR people in the world you know very simple
just two types.
Their business partners and their picnic planners you know the picnic planners are more concerned
about the buzzwords of the day you know and being in line with what they see in SHRM in
terms of the buzzwords of what we should be focused on today rather than focusing on the
right thing to do for the business and contributing value to the business and coming to grips
with what my role is in working with leadership to achieve business success that I have a
role to play.
Too many HR people oftentimes focus on the buzzword of the day you know what are we focusing
on now you know and when at the end of the day it's all about talent.
It's about the talent you're just within HR that gray area where you can bring the most
value is ensuring that you bring the right talent into that organization to help operations
achieve their goals and to drive business success.
So at the end of the day Anthony it's all about talent and so in last week's episode
episode one of HR and operations we spent time discussing the selection and hiring process
and the onboarding process and how assessment can bring objective data to bear to help organizations
make a better selection and hiring decision and hire the right talent as opposed to just
good talent great talent we want the right talent to help us drive our business in the
right direction to help us achieve our goals not become obstacles within the organization
and so it's all about developing metrics and that's where HR can really brings value not
by focusing on the fad of the day or the buzzwords of the day isn't about how can we contribute
real value to the organization and thinking the way our business leaders think thinking
in terms of data right and so we talked about that last week this week Anthony I want to
focus on how we develop our leaders how we pull together a strategic staffing model but
I want to start with the idea of change and that we're changing the mindset of our operational
leaders when we talk about becoming more data driven so let's focus on change management
to begin. It's interesting on occasion you'll run into managers who are a bit resistant
to a different way of looking at selection and hiring and onboarding you know and so
there is a change management or change leadership component to implementing a strategic you
know staffing model is looking at it being willing to look at it from a different perspective
and you know and really comparing it to your business strategic plan because it drives
your goals and everything else that you know through your business and creates a dashboard
of metrics so why couldn't you do that in HR as well right and so sometimes they're
resistant to change but it's interesting to think of that and then look at the you know
the latest Gallup research where they said you know that 75% of all managers admit that
they've made a bad hiring decision so it's like okay you know at least 75% of the managers
were honest. The other 25% not sure but you know if you don't have a baseline measurement
to gauge you know organizational and I'll use a bad term at HR fit you know people misconstrue
the words fit but it's determining the right talent at that moment in time in your business
to drive that business forward and to help you achieve the goals that you want to achieve
and provide you potential growth and you know help you create a talent pipeline within your
organization which feeds into you know performance management, succession planning and those
types of things as well.
You know Jeff I mean you know we as leaders we want to be confident and that's very important
you know we all need to have that strong base of confidence and we need to keep stacking
wins to build that confidence and that's what we strive to do every day you know as leaders
in organizations and that's wonderful but we also have to do in my opinion is we also
have to be humble and knowing we need help and right so believing that you know you're
a great interviewer and you know you can make great decisions without objective data that's
an area that you know I believe in this day and age where the stakes are so high to get
it right the first time. A lot of leaders they're not using data in their decision making
process stage they should consider it because it will confirm your instincts and we all
as leaders need that confirmation and then once we have that then we can continue to
build off of that confirmed decision and make it a great decision because then what happens
after the hiring decision is once again up to the leader and the organization to retain
that person so it's not just about hiring the right person you know the first time but
it's also about retaining them creating the right environment the right engagement throughout
your relationship. Yeah so they'll grow and continue to contribute to organization perhaps
at a higher level. Exactly. And most you know when you interview a job candidate you're
seeing that candidate at their best right unless they fail the IQ test you know you're
seeing them at their best behavior right. Yes. They want a job right and that's where
a lot of bad hiring decisions come into play and you'll hear this it reminds me of you
know when you have these horrific stories you know the you know someone who a next door
neighbor who does something horrific and the neighbor says you know they were I've just
never thought they'd do anything like that you know you have the same thing in HR unfortunately
you hire someone they interviewed wonderfully and then you know two months later you're
scratching your head and saying did this person have a twin who interviewed and then he sent
his other twin in to get you know do the job or this doesn't even seem like the same person
we talked to you know and so that's just you know certainly a way to overcome that you
know and to help them feel more comfortable with your hiring decision right. Yes and I
see it a lot in working with companies Jeff and that is when you're able to use science
in your decision making process and you're able to really like open up doors that ordinarily
would be closed through a traditional method of interviewing so you're using the assessment
to be more targeted with some of your questioning and you're able to really open up some opportunities
for further clarification. This gives organizations the opportunity to look at how people reason
so is a person reasoning defensively so hey this is who I am and then they're answering
these questions in a defensive posture so that's a sign. That's right. Or are they reasoning
productively and saying yes I recognize that trait in myself, I recognize that but here's
what I do to manage it. Here's what I've learned through my career. So that is very telling
and if you're not using an assessment to be able to go down that road and get to that
granular level, it's gonna be really difficult to understand how that person operates, what
their basis is. So are they a defensive reasoner, they're a productive reasoner because I've
worked with people, I'm sure we all have, who they reason defensively and anytime something
comes up where you know maybe like there was a mistake or misunderstanding, there's defensive
reasoning, defensive reasoning versus being open and saying hey how can I learn from this?
I did create an error here, I did do wrong, we don't like to say that, right? We hate
it but it's really valuable when you can be humble and say hey I messed up here but I
recognize that here's what I'm gonna do differently moving forward and then you move on.
Well I think that's a great segue into you know the next topic of discussion and developing
organizational leaders, right? And you know how important effective leadership is, it's
immeasurable impact on employee retention and performance and you know that sort of
thing. It's one thing that you get the right talent in the door but if you have poor leadership
you know you probably have a poor culture and again you're gonna have a retention issue
and what as an HR person again to add value you will to reduce your time to hire and your
hiring costs providing a service that brings value to the organization and so developing
your leaders is important as well and again you know in my experience leaders when they're
hiring they tend to like people who quote-unquote look like them, right? You know and you know
I'm successful so this person should be successful as well going back to your earlier comments
about how complex people are but self-awareness is a huge part of developing as an individual
and developing as a leader so talk to me about a better approach I guess for developing leaders.
Sure, I'd love to and I love you know I love this topic because there's so many thought
leaders there's so much great information on this topic and you know we see it every
day whether it's social media you know whether we're reading great books about leaders you
know everything great leaders do and you know I think it's really difficult to distill it
down to just a few sentences or you know a paragraph or whatever but when I look at this
and I work with organizations you know I embrace an approach it's called the upper echelons
theory and basically that's just it's a fancy you know theory for looking at leaders and
looking at leaders from a potential standpoint and a performance standpoint and I'm fortunate
what we do at Telexis is we're able to help organizations measure potential so understanding
how this individual is wired towards leadership a leadership type role and then we could also
measure leadership performance real time and understand how this person is manifesting
in their role and then what type of insights can we provide for course correction so it's
extremely valuable and I love leaders who come to the table with an open mind and a
positive attitude because you know that's like that's paramount you know that has to
be the starting point because if our mind isn't open if we're not a growth minded individual
then you know we're never going to benefit from this type of experience you know so if
we have that box checked then everything else will fall into place.
Yeah I mean I've utilized the 360 instrument multi-source feedback instrument to help create
self-awareness in the past with the executives and doing executive coaching and their reactions
oftentimes are defensive you know they give you reasons why they be you know that or they
begin to say well I know who said that right.
Worst case scenario you go on the vendetta right to so and that's worst case I have seen
it and some get very emotional and crying you know but you get the real benefit from
people who want to increase their level of self-awareness they want to know how people
feel about them how they're perceived in the organization because you can't get better
if you're not aware of the gaps right and so it's a matter of to your point they really
need to be they need to understand the purpose of it and of the assessment and they need
to understand what they can gain from it.
So Jeff I pretty recently heard or I'm sorry I pretty recently read a statistic from Gartner
and they said that 73% of HR leaders feel their leaders and managers aren't equipped
to lead change.
I would believe that yeah.
And in this day and age in the marketplace and business we all have to be super adaptable
and we need to be able to lead change in our organizations but it's in my opinion there's
a lot to that you have to there's a lot to unpack when it comes to leading change and
I would say you know based on you know our kind of conversation right now and our limited
time that you know that's really about communication and having that empathy and understanding
of your people how do people react to change and how you communicate that change to individuals
and how do you help them with that change.
So if we go through a process of some type of self-awareness and we're able to go through
that process of self-awareness through an assessment that provides us with something
tangible something objective then I believe that helps us improve self-efficacy.
Okay.
Right, so having self-awareness is one thing but having self-efficacy is another thing
because then that's what we know what to do with it and when we know what to do with it
then that's when we could make progress.
So that would be I think a great example in terms of how you can use an assessment to
provide data to provide baselines, it's tangible, it's concrete and then individuals can then
really put some thought behind what they can do more of less of and begin doing differently
to for example lead change.
Okay.
If that's an overarching theme of an organization then every result should be focused on how
do I do that, what is my like playbook for doing that because I'm different than my peer.
Right.
So, if I understand self, I understand my people through an assessment process and I
can be a very unique leader towards my team then I have that playbook for each person
to help them cope and lead that change.
Got it.
Thanks Anthony and if you don't mind let's take a quick break.
At Flagship Talent we work with our clients to find and place the right talent.
What do we mean by the right talent?
We mean we find talent who will commit to your organizational goals and align with your
values and behavior expectations.
Talent who will perform to your expectations.
Talent who will stay and grow with your organization.
How are we different from our competitors?
We offer the lowest fee structure in the industry.
We offer the best talent guarantee in the industry.
We provide selection and interviewing support to our clients at no additional fee.
We want to save you money, deliver high quality talent, become an extension of your organization
and be your preferred provider of talent acquisition solutions.
To learn more contact Jeff Parsons by email at jeff at FlagshipTalent.com or by phone
at 1-800-530-4189 extension 101.
Okay, we're back with Anthony Pantaleon from Tellexis.
We're getting near the end of our time.
I do have a question for you because there are some HR professionals who get nervous
over assessments when they hear the word assessments, right?
And what would you say to that listener who says, well, you know, assessments can get
us into trouble.
You know, I'm concerned about using assessments within our organization.
What would be your words of wisdom for that person?
Well, I've been doing this for 30 years so I'm biased.
I'd like to provide an unbiased response and you know, we all as human beings have our
own unconscious bias believe it or not and that factors into our decision making.
So an assessment would help provide more objectivity in that whole decision making process.
So it provides a common measuring device in an organization and it provides common language
and a common point of reference so that we can take that unconscious bias out of the
picture and have more accountability to each other because now if I'm involved in a hiring
decision and I'm about to hire someone now, it's very subjective and the person really
isn't going to be a great fit.
And let's just say we have an assessment now that's part of that process where the assessment
is going to tell us that this person doesn't have a good fit and this hiring manager wants
to move forward, well, why?
So now we can challenge that and that's okay, right?
It's okay to have a constructive challenge in an organization and the assessment would
help.
So I would say that it's a real concern and it's a concern that you know, I hear a lot
when I'm working with organizations and when you're using an assessment as part of a decision
making process, not the part of a decision making process, it's actually recommended
by the office of personnel management.
So the government has a guidebook on assessments and they actually recommend using assessments
because-
I mean, they use assessments as well, right?
Yes, exactly.
And I was even talking with a government contractor yesterday and they were thrilled with using
an assessment and working with me and us because they were able to write that into their bids
so that they can win these contracts because they'll be more efficient in their project
and the management of the funds that the government gives them.
So yes, to your point, assessments are real, they've been around for a long time.
You need to partner with the right company, the company that's gonna work with you.
You need to have an assessment that they're gonna work for the organization and the application,
needs to be accurate and reliable and if you check a lot of those boxes, then you shouldn't
be able to use an assessment with a high degree of confidence and make sure that your team
is using it correctly.
So when we work with companies, we go to great lengths to work with the hiring managers in
addition to HR so that the hiring managers are knowledgeable about how to use the assessment
and they don't shy away from it, but they embrace it and they use it correctly.
Right.
Well, using it correctly is important.
Number one, making sure the hiring managers are educated on how to interpret the assessment
results and how it should be used and that sort of thing is important.
The validity of the instrument is important.
The concern oftentimes is, well, I don't want to be sued by someone who says, we've used
an assessment to discriminate against that person based on some protected class.
So the key thing is that the assessment is shown to be valid, that you can prove that
it's valid and that it's a valid measure of success within your organization.
That's really all you have to do, right?
And the job profiles and those types of things you create as a part of this is job specific,
right?
And so you're assessing versus real world job expectations, job description expectations
or whatever, but it's related specifically on that job.
You're not like testing a person and saying they have to have a 12th grade level of English
comprehension when all your procedures are written in fourth grade level.
You're not doing that.
What you're doing is really matching what is required for the business and with the
candidate and how closely they fit with those expectations, right?
And that's how you overcome the fear of going to be sued.
You know, no, you look at the benefits over the risk and it's about showing that you're
using it as a part of the hiring decision.
As you said, not a pass fail and as the only thing for the hiring decision because there
is complexity to it and that the instrument itself has proven to be valid and relates
specifically to your job.
That's the key.
No matter where you live in the country, that's the key to it, right?
Absolutely, Jeff.
You really summarized it nicely.
When you look at an assessment, you know, when I work with organizations, you know,
we talk a lot about when you look at predicting success on the job, you can look at like
samples of like how someone has exhibited a level of expertise, you know, level of competency
to do the job and that a lot of times is difficult unless you go through like, you know, work
simulations, you just don't have the time for that.
Right.
So, a lot of times a more efficient way of predicting success is to look for signs and
that is what are the indicators of future success?
So, what are those traits?
What are those aptitudes?
What are the interests or temperament of a person?
How is that going to correlate with success?
And that's where an assessment gives you those signs.
Yeah, right.
And it allows HR and the organization itself to focus not only on the current state of
your business and the current needs of your business but again, the value add in earning
that seat at the table is when the C-suite people see you as an actual contributor to
their success and that you're as concerned with their future success as you are with
being successful today and bringing the right folks and right talent will build that company,
not just current state but would prepare them to meet their future challenges and things
of that nature.
That's why that's so important.
So, for all the HR people, if you're on the earth, seat at the table, show value.
And you know, we're very well said and I was just contacted about a week ago by someone
that I used to do business with my previous assessment company and she's with a new company,
I'm with a new company but she reached out to me because I was able to demonstrate how
I was able to help her shine in her organization by using our assessments and that's always
kind of come natural for me, Jeff, but being able to you know, partner with HR and to help
them be successful by having these desired outcomes through the implementation of an
assessment process, I mean, that's really the you know, what you're striving for.
That's what you're working towards.
That's right.
So, having that kind of that right partner to work with you is really important.
Yeah, I agree with you wholeheartedly, Anthony.
And having said that, we're unfortunately at the end of our time but thank you again,
Anthony, for your kind contribution, your thought leadership regarding how HR can become
a more valued member of the organization and earn that seat at the table.
So thanks again for joining us.
Thank you, Anthony.
I appreciate it.
Can you tell us one more time of how people can find you?
Sure.
Pretty easy to find me on LinkedIn, Anthony Pantholeone.
So that's pretty easy or my email is Anthony at telexis.com and that's T-A-L-E-X-E-S.com.
So Anthony at telexis.com.
So I told you Anthony was an expert.
Thanks again, Anthony.
Oh, my pleasure, Jeff.
Thanks for having me.
Hope to talk with you again soon.
My pleasure.
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