1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,120 Welcome to our podcast Women in Crypto, hosted by the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency, 2 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:11,220 sponsored by Bracewell LLP. 3 00:00:11,220 --> 00:00:15,520 Bracewell is a leading law and government relations firm whose award-winning teams lead 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:20,040 the market in cutting-edge transactions and litigation, regulatory matters, and government 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:21,040 relations. 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,320 You can learn more at Bracewell.com. 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,320 We couldn't do this podcast without them, and I'm very excited to be talking today about 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,800 a topic that I'm super passionate about and I know these two ladies are, which is crypto 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,040 asset recovery, something that we're all either currently involved in or, for some of us, 10 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:37,680 our past lives we're all about. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:42,040 The Association for Women in Cryptocurrency is a global professional network of women 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,440 and male allies around the world who advocate for the equitable inclusion of women in the 13 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,440 future of digital finance, blockchain technology, and Web3. 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,760 I want to make sure it's clear that the views of the speakers are their own and do not necessarily 15 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,000 represent those of the Association, its sponsors, or its board of directors. 16 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,400 This podcast is our opportunity to showcase the incredible work being done by our members 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,720 around the world in the crypto, blockchain, and Web3 industries. 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:11,480 I'm your host, Amanda Wick, founder and CEO of the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency, 19 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,800 and I'm incredibly excited to introduce you to Joanna Summers and Helen Pugh, and I'm 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:17,240 going to let them introduce themselves. 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,040 So Joanna and Helen, can you tell us a little bit about yourselves and how about Helen will 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:22,040 start with you? 23 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,080 Thank you so much Amanda for having us on the podcast. 24 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:31,440 I'm a barrister in London, so part of the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency in 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:32,600 the London chapter. 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:38,560 My background has been fraud work, insolvency, commercial litigation, until the last few 27 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:44,440 years when there's been a bit of an explosion of crypto-related litigation in the UK. 28 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:50,280 So I'm now heavily involved in that, doing fraud recovery cases where there's been 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:58,200 misappropriated crypto assets, advising office holders on insolvencies involving crypto assets, 30 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:03,720 and even things like shareholder disputes where it involves a crypto company. 31 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:04,720 Joanna? 32 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:05,720 Good morning. 33 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,240 Thank you so much for having us today, Amanda. 34 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,760 I am with Asset Reality, and we are building the world's first seized asset management 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:19,720 platform, laying the groundwork for successful asset forfeiture and recovery to help governments 36 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:25,920 and insolvency practitioners seize, manage, and liquidate both physical and digital assets. 37 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:30,560 And my background comes from the Department of Justice, US Martial Service, where I spent 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:35,840 10 years in the Asset Forfeiture Division, and I ran our complex assets unit. 39 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:42,200 So any ongoing business or complex financial instrument that was targeted for federal forfeiture 40 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:47,960 came through my team for evaluation, management, custody, and disposal. 41 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,200 And I'm Amanda, I know I worked with you while I was at DOJ, and I'm so happy that we're 42 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:57,720 together again in Women in Crypto, and I am the DC member ambassador. 43 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,440 I'm very excited to have you both. 44 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,960 I want to jump right in and touch on something that you just said, Joanna, because I know 45 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,600 we have a tendency in the US to refer to it as asset forfeiture. 46 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,320 A lot of folks abroad call it asset recovery, and I want to touch on a very basic foundational 47 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:18,120 concept, which is the difference between what we would call civil and criminal forfeiture 48 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:23,480 in the United States, but what a lot of countries would call non-conviction-based forfeiture 49 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,000 and criminal forfeiture. 50 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,240 And Joanna, I know you are working in a ton of countries around the world. 51 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,320 Can you just really quickly explain the difference so that people kind of know what it is we're 52 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,840 talking about when we're talking about asset recovery? 53 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,760 Because I know Helen's going to talk about civil cases, where there's not even a crime 54 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:45,280 involved, but can you talk about cases where there might be a crime, but it's not forfeited 55 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,680 criminally, which I think confuses people? 56 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:48,680 Sure. 57 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:55,240 So civil forfeiture or non-conviction-based forfeiture is a court proceeding that's brought 58 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,680 against the property that was derived from a crime or used to commit an offense rather 59 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,640 than the person who committed the offense. 60 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:09,360 There is no criminal conviction required, but the government is still required to prove 61 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,920 in court that the property was linked to a criminal activity. 62 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:18,440 So civil forfeiture, in my opinion, complements criminal forfeiture because it fills in the 63 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,440 gaps where criminal forfeiture is not always feasible. 64 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:28,480 So think about your cases where a defendant's a fugitive or they're deceased or maybe they're 65 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,800 unknown, which is the case in a lot of money laundering schemes. 66 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,480 And the case in a lot of cryptocurrency fraud, if you think about romance scams, pig butchering 67 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,240 schemes, investment frauds. 68 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:42,200 Those cases where maybe someone was contacted through an online dating app and you just 69 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,920 don't know who that person is on the other end of that dating app. 70 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:51,880 So civil forfeiture is particularly helpful in cases where the offense was committed in 71 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,920 a country that doesn't provide mutual legal assistance to the United States. 72 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,800 So think about a country like China. 73 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:04,080 Even if you did manage to find the criminal, it's highly unlikely you would be able to 74 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,040 drag them into a US court at a later date. 75 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:12,880 In terms of crypto asset recovery, civil forfeiture, it shows that it's all about the need for 76 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:13,880 speed. 77 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,760 It's the battle to get to the funds the fastest in crypto asset recovery. 78 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,600 And we all know here how quickly cryptocurrency can move. 79 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,440 It just takes the click of a button and criminals know this as well. 80 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:33,640 So without this civil forfeiture aspect, the funds for the victims of financial crimes 81 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,120 would quickly go to zero. 82 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,240 Yeah, I think that's something that people don't appreciate. 83 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,640 And unfortunately, I think there are groups in the United States from like a political 84 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:46,800 lobbying perspective who kind of really kind of butcher that narrative that for us, when 85 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:52,600 we're trying to help crime victims, the non-conviction based forfeiture or the civil forfeiture process 86 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:58,160 of getting the property back for the victim when we can't get a body that's a defendant 87 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,240 is oftentimes sometimes the best thing that we can do. 88 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,080 Most of my victims, when I was a prosecutor, financial crime victims would have far preferred 89 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:09,400 to have their money back, even if it meant not necessarily catching the criminal. 90 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:14,760 And so I think people don't realize how essential that aspect is for making financial crime victims 91 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:15,760 whole. 92 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,320 And Helen, we haven't really even touched on this civil side because you mentioned during 93 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:24,440 your introduction a lot of the work that you do in asset recovery that doesn't even involve 94 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,440 a crime. 95 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,120 And I'm curious if you could touch on that because I think you do both cases that where 96 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,560 a crime is involved, but sometimes a crime isn't involved at all, right? 97 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:34,560 Yeah, that's right. 98 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:40,760 So to complicate things, I would say in the UK, we have the criminal forfeiture. 99 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:47,000 We then have civil forfeiture under the Procedure Crime Act, which as Joanna said, is this setup 100 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:55,800 where if you prove 51% essentially that a crime has been committed, then you can seize 101 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,680 the proceeds of that crime, and that's a much lower threshold than proving that you're 102 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,080 sure somebody is a criminal and that the proceeds are proceeds of crime. 103 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:12,280 But then we have the third limb, which is just pure civil court actions, which are remedying 104 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:13,280 civil wrongs. 105 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:20,880 So misrepresentation, deceit, breach of contract, those sorts of things, you just go straight 106 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:22,640 to the civil court. 107 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,000 And so I do do a lot of that. 108 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,360 And actually, in terms of speed, I think, I mean, I would say this, given I work in the 109 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:36,560 field, but I do think we have the edge on the law enforcement agencies because you don't 110 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,800 have to go through layers of authorities. 111 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:47,280 If it's an overseas jurisdiction, the courts in the UK are still very open to issuing injunctions 112 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:48,280 abroad. 113 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,040 Now, whether you can enforce that abroad is a different issue. 114 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,240 But you at least have something quick. 115 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,600 You can get it in 24 hours if you need to. 116 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,320 You've got the right case and the right tracing evidence, what have you. 117 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:08,120 And then a lot of the exchanges will cooperate even if they are based overseas. 118 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:14,600 So I think often the civil route can react much quicker because it can take a while to 119 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,560 get law enforcement interested. 120 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:17,560 I have seen that. 121 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,880 And it's interesting because I've had that conversation with some lawyers in the United 122 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:26,480 States where I've said, you know, if you can find a UK tie, you guys have some tools in 123 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:28,480 your toolbox that the United States doesn't. 124 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:34,760 And to Joanna's point, when you have the need for speed, oftentimes you want what we 125 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:39,400 would call parallel investigations where you want to call law enforcement and have them 126 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,360 investigating, but you also want to work civilly just in case it can move faster. 127 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:48,520 And I find it fascinating in crypto to your point that I have seen some amazing cases 128 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:54,760 that folks in the UK are doing where in 24 hours they can get a response from a exchange 129 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:58,840 like that you said oftentimes is cooperating for whatever reason. 130 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,080 But you know, Joanna mentioned earlier when she said defendants that aren't in countries 131 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:08,040 with mutual legal assistance treaties and in our old life we called those MLATs. 132 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:13,400 But the process by which law enforcement has to go through to officially request records, 133 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:14,400 sometimes you get lucky. 134 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,560 You know, there's some state district attorneys in the US who are doing that where they're 135 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:23,680 basically like courtesy requesting freezes or requesting documents, but it's very difficult, 136 00:09:23,680 --> 00:09:26,680 especially for the feds to informally do that. 137 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:30,240 And so I think it's an interesting thing that a lot of people don't know that not only can 138 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,560 the civil go faster, but that the UK has these really unique processes that in some cases 139 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:41,040 if you can get that jurisdictional hook, you guys can move insanely fast on is it is it 140 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:42,480 because I always get it wrong. 141 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,400 It's like bankers trust or Norwich Pharmacol orders or something like that. 142 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:47,400 Right. 143 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,200 But they're two different things, but you're absolutely right. 144 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:50,560 And you normally want them both. 145 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:51,560 Yeah. 146 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:55,240 It's actually quite pleasing to hear that because usually we're looking across the 147 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:03,040 pond quite enviously at the litigation tools that are used in the US usually. 148 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,480 Well, and I think it's a combination of both. 149 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:06,480 Right. 150 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:09,520 I mean, like, you don't necessarily want either or. 151 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:15,840 I know one of my mutual friend that we have who's a former AUSA Evelyn Sheehan at Cobrain 152 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,760 Kim, I think she does very similar work. 153 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,640 And what I've heard is that it's both. 154 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:21,640 Right. 155 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,880 You want to be looking if you're doing it right, you want to be looking at the best jurisdictions 156 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:27,520 who has the best process. 157 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,880 I think some folks just don't realize that the UK is an option. 158 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,880 And I think you guys have some advantages here that the US doesn't. 159 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:36,880 Yeah. 160 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,400 Whereas you see in the bankruptcy with the FTX. 161 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,280 You saw it got anchored in the states rather than in Bahamas. 162 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,640 And the Bahamas has got similar systems to the UK. 163 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:53,240 So it just depends on which tools are best in your particular situation really. 164 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:59,360 And yes, England just have the advantage of moving fast if it's a hot pursuit case where 165 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:05,320 you're trying to freeze and exchange wallet, for example, where you've traced funds to. 166 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:06,320 Yeah. 167 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,400 So one of the things, one of the differences that I've noticed, and this is just probably 168 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,520 my own bias having been a prosecutor that tried to get other prosecutors to do asset 169 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:16,520 recovery. 170 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:21,600 I enjoy and I'm curious to get your thoughts on this, but it feels like often the focus 171 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:27,040 in the United States is on punitive measures, like getting the body, getting the defendant, 172 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,280 prosecuting somebody and putting them in jail. 173 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:34,440 While it feels like the UK prioritizes asset recovery first, some of that might be because 174 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,040 your jail system doesn't give as much time. 175 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,720 So the punitive measures are somewhat less. 176 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,600 But I'm curious to you, would you agree with that characterization? 177 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,360 And if so, how do you think that affects the outcomes of cases? 178 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:48,760 Yeah, I'll stop with that. 179 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,840 I have more questions, but we'll stop there. 180 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:56,760 Is that an unfair characterization and what do you think that leads to, I guess? 181 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,080 No, I think that is a fair characterization. 182 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:06,840 I think in the US, we do prioritize getting the individual and we focus on the punitive 183 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:07,840 measures. 184 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,120 And I understand that emotionally, a lot of the time, that's what makes us feel good. 185 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,720 We want to get that criminal and we want to see them behind bars. 186 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,280 We want to make them pay for their actions. 187 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:24,440 But when you take a step back and you look at things like non-conviction-based forfeiture 188 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,120 and you understand the differences in the two, you just come to the realization that 189 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,480 that's not always feasible and you have to think about it a little bit differently. 190 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:39,560 And in my DOJ life, working at the US Marshall Service, I can tell you for sure that taking 191 00:12:39,560 --> 00:12:44,440 away the proceeds of crime from victims, taking away the yachts, the planes, the jewelry, 192 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,200 that's really where you're hitting these criminals where it hurts. 193 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:49,920 You're taking away their toys. 194 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,200 And then transitioning over to my life at Asset Reality, I've spoken to so many victims 195 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,080 of cryptocurrency fraud. 196 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:01,520 And to your point earlier, Amanda, the first thing every victim has said to me is, how 197 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:03,200 do I get my money back? 198 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:04,720 That was my college fund. 199 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:06,220 That was my life savings. 200 00:13:06,220 --> 00:13:08,360 That was my parents' retirement fund. 201 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,360 That's what moves the needle on their life and will really make an impact on their life 202 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,800 is getting that money back and making them and their family whole. 203 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:20,320 So I think when you start to look at it from that perspective, you realize that there are 204 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:21,320 a lot of differences. 205 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,640 And Helen and I were talking about this the other week as well, that it is more of a focus 206 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:31,440 in the US, I think, on criminal than getting the asset back to a victim. 207 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,960 And I think there should be more of a focus on asset recovery itself, allowing for that 208 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,800 recovered assets to be returned to victims, especially when you look at things like the 209 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,720 IC3 report, which is put out by the FBI every year. 210 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:55,080 Cryptocurrency investment fraud rose from $907 million in 2021 to $2.57 billion in 2022. 211 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,280 That's over 180% increase. 212 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:05,280 And there were over 19,000 victims of romance scams reported to IC3 in 2022. 213 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:10,560 And those are just the victims who reported and the victims in the United States. 214 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:15,400 So I think when you start to hear these staggering numbers, you realize there's got to be more 215 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,400 of a focus on the asset recovery itself. 216 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:23,640 And Helen, I know that it just seems to me like the UK might have some more legal tools 217 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,360 to address that than we do in the United States. 218 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:27,360 Yeah. 219 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:34,760 I mean, I think the English approach to asset recovery essentially supposes that as long 220 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:39,840 as you can identify through the tracing an account which you can point to and say, this 221 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,640 is more than likely to be involved in the original wrongdoing and it's got funds and 222 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:52,440 still, then it's usually you'd think unlikely that someone who is engaged in that wrongdoing 223 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,720 will pop up and try and contest that. 224 00:14:54,720 --> 00:15:00,640 So often, although that these things are urgent and there's a lot of upfront work, once you 225 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:07,240 get to the point of having served the injunction and spoken to the cooperative exchange, it's 226 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,200 unlikely that your wrongdoing is going to pop up and say, actually, I'm going to fight 227 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,160 you over this partly because they want to protect their identity and avoid the criminal 228 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:17,560 penalties that would follow. 229 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:24,120 Well, and you raise a really several important points, one of which is this is why the importance 230 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:30,200 of having crypto tracers, like there's unfortunately a lot of companies now that are re-scamming 231 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,240 people where victims will say, I've lost my funds and then they'll go online and they'll 232 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,680 find like crypto investigators who are saying, oh, we'll find your funds for you and for X, 233 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,440 they actually charge a percentage of the stolen amount and they will re-scam people because 234 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:50,520 to your point, if they can't trace it quickly and the funds aren't there, there's nothing 235 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,000 to be collected back. 236 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,880 And it's unfortunate because I know the three of us all know really good companies that 237 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:01,160 are legitimately doing this work that will not take money from people that will say, 238 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,440 look, I can tell you with just a quick search, like whether this money is gone or not and 239 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,760 you shouldn't throw good money after bad. 240 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,640 And then there are just scam companies that are out there that are sadly like re-scamming 241 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:12,640 people. 242 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:18,400 I think that kind of like PSA message of if you're a scam victim, please, please, please 243 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:23,240 be so careful before you reach out to a company that says it can get your money back for you 244 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,440 because unfortunately so many of those are scam artists. 245 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,440 But to the other point in there, in the United States, the movement to like abolish non-conviction 246 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:36,600 based forfeiture frequently points to cases where, Joanne and I know this from our past 247 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,240 lives, but where like people get pulled over and have like a suitcase full of unexplained 248 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,240 cash. 249 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,200 Like maybe they've got like a prior record and whatever it is, there's like a seizure. 250 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:52,520 It's frequently involved seizures of cash and unexplained massive amounts of cash, right? 251 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,440 Which is not traceable. 252 00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:00,560 Whereas to your point, if you've gone through and you've traced stolen funds in crypto and 253 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:06,360 you can make that showing to a court, this is where you have an established, like a legally 254 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:10,840 established like, no, these are more likely than not or whatever the standard is in the 255 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,760 way, proceeds of a crime. 256 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,600 It's not like we're just saying, this is super sketchy that they have files of cash. 257 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:20,800 It's like a weekend actually traced back to here's where the funds were stolen in, here's 258 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,000 where they ended up in this account and whoever's controlling this account is in receipt of stolen 259 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,000 funds. 260 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,800 And I think that gets lost that you don't just like lose all due process. 261 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:35,720 When you're doing this, you're actually tracing funds to proceeds and then saying to a criminal, 262 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,000 if you're the person who stole these or if you know how these got here by all means, 263 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,840 get that forward and claim them in court and identify yourself. 264 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:48,680 And that's a very different dynamic in non-conviction based forfeiture in crypto cases. 265 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,120 And I think it is in cash. 266 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:52,200 And I think that's lost sometimes. 267 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:58,000 I will say, I also think people don't appreciate the actual traceability of crypto. 268 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:03,320 And I know this gets talked about a lot and they see haters online who don't really understand 269 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:04,320 this. 270 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,960 But Joanna, I'm wondering like if you could talk briefly and then Helen, I'd love to 271 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:14,360 know from like the civil side that the issues that people have in tracing crypto, because 272 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:19,440 I don't think it's as anonymous as some people still want to believe it is. 273 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,440 Yeah, absolutely. 274 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,960 And just backing up for a minute, I agree too, Amanda. 275 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:29,680 We've seen a lot at Asurality over the past year of unfortunately victims being re-victimized 276 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:36,840 by some of these law firms or supposed investigators who demand money upfront and claim they can 277 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,880 100% get the proceeds back. 278 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,120 And there's just so many red flags there. 279 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:45,640 Like, first off, you shouldn't be paying someone upfront and no one should be guaranteeing 280 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,960 you they can get your funds back. 281 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,800 And there are a lot of people who are very good at doing the asset tracing out there. 282 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:56,600 But unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there looking to re-victimize people who 283 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,320 are looking for help after they've just been scammed. 284 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,600 So just wanted to point out that we've seen a lot of that too. 285 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,680 So I definitely think people should be careful with that. 286 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,160 And Helen, I'm curious on the civil side, because I know Joanne and I spend a lot of 287 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,840 time or used to spend a lot of time tracing on the criminal side. 288 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,280 And there's all kinds of blockchain analytics tools that you can use for that. 289 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,920 But I'm curious, how does it work on the civil side? 290 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,680 Is the asset recovery tracing process similar? 291 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,320 I know the tools might be different, but is the process similar? 292 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:26,320 Yeah. 293 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,840 So I think from what I can gather, a lot of the software is a bit more restricted in 294 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:32,840 civil. 295 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:38,480 So I think the software providers might have extra add-on tools, which law enforcement 296 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:44,200 get access to, which we might not have access to on the civil side of things. 297 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:49,200 Essentially just responsible behavior, I think, by these software companies. 298 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:54,200 But that's not to say we don't have really extensive tools at our disposal. 299 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,480 So there's on-chain tracing that we use. 300 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:03,440 And often, certainly my experience is you're not just tracing along one branch, if you 301 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,640 like, you'll find that there are similar patterns because it's unlikely that only one person 302 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:09,080 is being scammed. 303 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:13,880 This person is often involved in multiple similar scams. 304 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:21,520 So from the analytic process of this software, you can draw patterns, you can show that funds 305 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,640 from other suspect transactions are flowing through the same wallet. 306 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,560 So that's all hugely useful and quite compelling to the court. 307 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,960 But in addition, you have the off-chain research as well. 308 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,680 So old school detective work where often through the bankers trust in the Norwich Pharmacal, 309 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,560 you can get the KYC documents from the exchange. 310 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:50,520 And then you use the old school Hercule Pro, sort of like, hmm, let's see what we can find 311 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,800 out about the KYC people on the account. 312 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:58,440 Now sometimes you'll come across a passport that's clearly not genuine and it's part of 313 00:20:58,440 --> 00:20:59,440 the fraud. 314 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:06,360 But quite often, they will have had to put forward genuine KYC documents and you can 315 00:21:06,360 --> 00:21:12,280 trace and you can ask the exchange what other accounts to these people have the KYC to and 316 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:13,600 trace that way as well. 317 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,120 So it's a bit of a mixture of both, really, just drawing the dots. 318 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:23,160 Helen, we've seen a lot of that too, where you start with a small victims case and then 319 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,200 you see the funds flowing in and out of the same wall to address and more victims come 320 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,600 forward and before you know it, it's been $10,000 through the same wall and over and 321 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,400 over again and suddenly you're up to a multi-million dollar case. 322 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,400 And I think that's where doing really good investigative research there comes in handy. 323 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,400 Yeah. 324 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,640 And I will say, I'm curious, Helen, if you've seen this, because I know I've seen in the 325 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:49,000 United States where sometimes the private attorneys that are working for one victim, 326 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:54,800 maybe a victim who loses a lot of money or has the means to try to hire a law firm to 327 00:21:54,800 --> 00:22:00,840 get it back, the law firm then basically makes a package presentation and says, in order 328 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,240 to get law enforcement, basically pick it up. 329 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,120 It's like, well, it's not just my victim that lost five, six, maybe seven digits. 330 00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:13,680 If you add, if you look at this wallet, it took all these other deposits around the same 331 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:20,280 time and you're looking at my victim times 50 times 100 because nobody ever just does 332 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:24,360 one scam, sees how it goes and then it's like, oh, I've got enough money for life. 333 00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:26,480 They blitz, right? 334 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,760 They almost like DDoS attack victims. 335 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,600 And it's like, well, let me just send this out to 200 possible victims and see, oh, look, 336 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,320 I've got 80 victim pickup rate, right? 337 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,760 It's never usually just one victim in these cases. 338 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,480 And I'm curious if folks do that on the UK side, if you see kind of, because I know 339 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,600 you guys have like a private prosecution system, it's very interesting, but I'm curious, do 340 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,440 you see like law firms able to kind of pick up and say, oh, this just went from a one 341 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,560 victim case to like a 50 or a hundred victim case? 342 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,360 Well, they're definitely trying to do that and put together group actions on the civil 343 00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:04,040 side because if you've lost 50,000, that's a huge amount of money to an individual. 344 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,840 I mean, it's like twice the average annual income in the UK or something, but you take 345 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:14,160 it to a lawyer and they say, well, that won't get you very far in the process sometimes 346 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,840 by the time you've paid for lawyers, investigators, court fees and what have you. 347 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:24,920 So if you put together the group of victims, then they only have to contribute a smaller 348 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,240 amount and then it's a many multiple claim and then you might get interest from the 349 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:30,240 investigation funders. 350 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,320 We have a very active mature investigation funding market in the UK. 351 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,400 So I definitely see that. 352 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,000 Can you explain that just a little bit just in case people don't know what a litigation 353 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:41,800 funder is for anyone listening? 354 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,000 Because I think the average person really doesn't understand that there are actually 355 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:51,520 entities that fund litigation and they think, I think a lot of people I talk to think I 356 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,600 have to pay for my own case and if I don't have money, it's hopeless. 357 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,720 But can you explain what litigation funders are and how they can sometimes kind of help 358 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,200 a case get made even if the individual person doesn't have their own money? 359 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:12,160 Yeah, so litigation funding is now permitted in the UK and there are basically these huge 360 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:19,120 companies backed by hedge funds or investors who you can approach with a summary of the 361 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:24,200 case and all the information and they will take a view on whether they think you're 362 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:30,200 going to win or not and then they'll essentially make you an economic offer and say, you know, 363 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,120 to run it to this stage, we want X multiple of the legal costs. 364 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,920 There's been an issue recently in the UK about whether you can have a percentage of 365 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:45,680 the outcome and I think you can but it's quite highly regulated so you have to get your agreement 366 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:46,680 in order. 367 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,680 So there are various different commercial economic deals that can be done. 368 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,880 There are definitely companies out there. 369 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,080 The problem in crypto is twofold really. 370 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:02,040 One you often don't have a huge amount of time to negotiate these things if you're moving 371 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:08,640 fast and so it might not be suitable for that hot pursuit case. 372 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:14,280 And secondly, they're nervous about the value of crypto because they will work on a well-it's 373 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:20,800 worth X value but we all know that the volatility in the value of a lot of cryptocurrencies and 374 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:28,240 even Bitcoin fluctuates hugely and so at the moment, I think there's a lot of appetite 375 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:34,360 to get involved but they're still trying to work out how their economic models work with 376 00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:37,760 an asset that fluctuates so wildly in value. 377 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:42,800 Yeah, that's an interesting thing because I know like Joanne and I had some cases where 378 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:50,320 it was so old where they bought it at like $600 or $1,000 and what was like maybe a six 379 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:56,600 digit crime by the time it gets prosecuted became an eight digit crime because of over 380 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:02,080 time like what it could be and conversely now, if something happens when it's at $35,000 381 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,600 and then it plummets, your point like that can really impact the... 382 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,200 Because the lip funders are kind of like gamblers. 383 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,960 They're essentially like litigation gamblers which I find fascinating. 384 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,520 It's like betting on the house. 385 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,280 That could be a whole another podcast topic but I think it's just... 386 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,520 The reason I think it's important is because I don't think a lot of people out there think 387 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,440 it's an option to get an attorney. 388 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,520 They don't know that it's always worth... 389 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,000 I think it's always worth talking to a good attorney who knows and can really tell you 390 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,280 like your chances and I think that finding crypto attorneys who actually know what they're 391 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,640 talking about can really help victims and I've had some victims that I send to great 392 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,000 attorneys and the attorney... 393 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,600 The proof of their greatness is that they look and they say, real talk, that money's 394 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:47,600 gone. 395 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:48,600 Yeah. 396 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:52,280 They say, good money after bad which is sometimes the nicest thing that you can tell somebody 397 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:57,560 is the truth and not take more of their money or a lot more of their money depending but 398 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,520 it's a very real thing. 399 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,920 I think one of the things Joanne and I'd love to go back to that you were talking about, 400 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:05,920 the importance... 401 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,280 I think we all know the importance of crypto asset recovery. 402 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,240 I think in the United States on the criminal side and frankly, I think the civil side is 403 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,920 trying but is having the speed issues but my understanding is there's a new FATIF rule 404 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:20,920 coming out. 405 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:26,000 I was wondering if you could talk about that because I think it is going to encourage everyone 406 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,000 to do this more. 407 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,080 Do I have that right? 408 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,360 Yeah, absolutely. 409 00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:37,280 FATIF just came out of a conference in October where they did a lot of discussions on strategic 410 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:43,360 initiatives to improve asset recovery and we've all known that asset recovery has been 411 00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:48,920 underperforming globally and FATIF just announced last week that they're starting the process 412 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:54,760 of improving the standards for freezing, seizing and managing seized assets. 413 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,160 We've heard this before but it's great to see a renewed focus from them on it and I 414 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,200 think that this is going to really help put pressure on countries that are underperforming 415 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:09,080 in these areas of fraud and seized asset management to ensure that they do get an effective system 416 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,840 in place because overall, that's what's going to help improve the returns for victims and 417 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,040 for their societies. 418 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:23,160 Another point that FATIF came out with was they did formally recognize non-conviction-based 419 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,400 forfeiture and they noted in their revised recommendations that they require countries 420 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:34,960 to have policies and operational framework that prioritize asset recovery and prioritize 421 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:43,480 establishing that non-conviction-based confiscation structure or framework in their legal systems. 422 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:49,080 They are promoting the non-conviction-based forfeiture as well and a lot of people are 423 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,680 following that US model of it but I think especially talking to Helen in some other 424 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,120 countries, it's great to get that global approach to it because they're different countries 425 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:03,160 doing different aspects of it very well and it's great to have a body like FATIF that 426 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,040 can sit in and kind of pull all of that together. 427 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,600 Well, I think one of the things and Helen, I want to come back to you because I know 428 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,840 I think the UK also recently passed a, is it in the process of passing the law or is 429 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:20,160 doing something to kind of like make it easier to do crypto asset seizures and recovery? 430 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,200 But I want to touch on something that you said, Joanna, which is the perception of 431 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,480 which countries are doing it well because I think there are countries that don't have 432 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,240 non-conviction-based forfeiture statutes, right? 433 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,080 They don't have the regime and they need to build that, right? 434 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,880 And I know like a former colleague of ours, Steph Cassell, I think he travels the world 435 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,400 helping countries who want to put that into place because he literally drafted the statute 436 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,040 in the United States, right? 437 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,240 And so those countries that don't have a framework not doing it well, I think one of the things 438 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:55,600 that frustrates me about the United States is that it's moving backwards whereas countries 439 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,880 like the UK are moving forwards. 440 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,600 Here in the United States, we have a massive amount of resources. 441 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:08,040 We have like the system is in place and we just don't do the best job training and requiring 442 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:13,600 prosecutors and agents to do the asset recovery as much as kicking indoors and putting people 443 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:14,600 in jail. 444 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,320 I think that's my frustration is that we have the potential to be doing it. 445 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,400 We're doing it badly for how well we could be. 446 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,440 But if you just compare countries like country outputs, yes, the US is probably here compared 447 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:32,120 to some others, but given the capabilities that the US has and what they could be doing, 448 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,520 it's incredibly frustrating to watch, especially when there are statutes that are being put 449 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,160 forward to eliminate non-conviction-based forfeiture in the UK. 450 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:46,080 I think in the UK, didn't you guys just get, there's like a statute that you guys are passing 451 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,720 to make it easier to get crypto and address the need for speed, right? 452 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,720 Did I see that come out? 453 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:52,720 Yeah. 454 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:57,560 So I think it's the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Act. 455 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,520 And I think it just came into force last week, actually. 456 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:06,600 And the idea is that, yes, law enforcement will focus more on asset recovery themselves 457 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,080 and in the crypto sphere. 458 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,720 And it gives them a few extra tools. 459 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:15,400 I mean, I might be saying something a bit controversial here and it may not, it may be 460 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:21,200 partly because it's not my area, but it looked to me like a lot of the tools already existed, 461 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:27,640 but it's more trying to encourage their use, really, and sharpening them up a bit. 462 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:33,600 I mean, again, controversially, perhaps, the problem we have in England, I think, and one 463 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:39,400 of the reasons people go down the civil recovery route is that a lot of the public services 464 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:40,880 are underfunded. 465 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:47,480 So I think, you know, police, of course we have forensic experts, of course we have digital 466 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,640 experts and asset recovery experts, but the public attitude and appetite for that sort 467 00:31:53,640 --> 00:32:01,040 of work is less than for the type of, you know, overt violence and what have you. 468 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:07,760 So I think when funds are scarcer in England for public services, I think you'll find 469 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:14,800 that victims of financial crime are perhaps not given as much of the public purse as other 470 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:15,800 victims of crime. 471 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,320 Yeah, I could second that with the United States as well. 472 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:25,320 I think funding is a major issue, especially at a state and local level because they just 473 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,360 don't have the funding to get that advanced cryptocurrency training that they need to 474 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,080 feel confident in completing these types of cases. 475 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,640 And I really do think it is an issue of you just need to do it a few times and not put 476 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,480 it in the too hard pile and give it a shot and then you'll figure it out and you'll start 477 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:43,560 to get better at it. 478 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:48,600 And I noticed this at DOJ too, like when we first started doing the cryptocurrency cases, 479 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:54,800 I worked with the same US attorney's offices and the same agents for like years before 480 00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:00,000 it branched out and I'd stopped hearing so many people say, I don't do crypto cases, 481 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,480 I don't do that stuff. 482 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:08,840 It took a really long time for just cryptocurrency training to get woven into general DOJ training 483 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,200 or into training at FLETC, which is the Federal Law Enforcement Training Facility. 484 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,440 So I think as that's been incorporated, we've seen more and more districts and more and 485 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:24,240 more special agents work those types of cases, but it's still, I think, underfunded and under-trained. 486 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,440 And I think while Federal law enforcement is doing a great job trying to get more of 487 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,640 that training, it just seems to me like more of it's needed still. 488 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:33,640 100%. 489 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:37,720 I think that's probably the one thing that if I could, and I'll ask you guys, what's 490 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,040 the note that you would end on? 491 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,440 I would be thinking about that, but I think if I could say like one of the takeaways, 492 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:50,080 if you took away anything from this, Joanna and I were part of a small, like the asset 493 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,160 recovery community in DOJ is very small and tight because not enough people know it or 494 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,160 do it, which is really sad. 495 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:02,120 And if I could say one thing, it would be that we need more people who understand asset 496 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,760 recovery both from a criminal and a civil aspect, from a conviction and a non-conviction 497 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,840 based perspective, from an international perspective of what tools the United States 498 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,200 attorneys have versus what tools the UK or Singapore or foreign jurisdictions have because 499 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,880 this technology is so globalized. 500 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,680 And so our response needs to be globalized. 501 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,840 And the ability to trace assets and follow crypto is something that we have got to build 502 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,480 more capacity in. 503 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,040 And I know that's something that all of us are really passionate about. 504 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,640 And it'll probably be the topic of another podcast that we'll do just because we could 505 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,560 spend an entire hour talking about the need for crypto investigators. 506 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,960 But I would love for you guys to have the last word Helen, Joanna, things that you 507 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,760 would want people to take away from crypto asset recovery. 508 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:48,760 Last thoughts. 509 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:53,560 My last thought would be especially in the United States, we've seen a lot of pushback 510 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,000 on the civil forfeiture route. 511 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,360 And there's a big case coming up in the Supreme Court, which if you have a chance to listen 512 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,720 to Steph Cassella's podcast on recently, they've been phenomenal. 513 00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:07,040 I would just like everyone to kind of think about things holistically. 514 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,320 And when you hear things like this happened to victims, the civil forfeiture happened 515 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,600 to victims. 516 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:17,320 Think about all of the victims that civil asset forfeiture is also helping and what 517 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,960 you'd be taking away from them without that. 518 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,520 And I think unless you look at both sides of that equation, you're not really getting 519 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:29,680 the full picture on the severity of limiting asset forfeiture in this country would have. 520 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,520 And I think that's a really good and impression point. 521 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:33,520 Helen. 522 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,960 I think for me, the fact you can recover these assets should be a key takeaway. 523 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,400 Because so often I think people think, oh, the blockchain's untraceable. 524 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,240 It's so anonymous. 525 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:46,800 I'll never get it back. 526 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:53,000 There is a way you might need to think about the economics of it in certain cases, but 527 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,280 there is often a way to get things back, particularly if you work quickly. 528 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:04,200 So I would say to people who are investing in this area, consider it like your bank 529 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,200 account. 530 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,960 If somebody steals things from your bank account, think about claims against your bank and about 531 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,440 tracing the perpetrator. 532 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:16,000 There's no reason why you shouldn't look into it for crypto as well. 533 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,120 I just think, yeah, crypto just shouldn't go in the too hard pile. 534 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:24,480 And having worked both physical and digital assets in the US, I can tell you like once 535 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,600 you get crypto assets into your custody and it's safe and secure, the maintenance on it 536 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:36,120 is a lot less than managing a boat or managing a plane and having to have all sorts of people 537 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,000 come in to maintain that asset. 538 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,960 Once you actually get into custody, it is much more like a bank account where it can 539 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,000 sit in place frozen until the case is adjudicated. 540 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,920 So I think in a lot of ways people overcomplicate the crypto asset seizures and asset recovery 541 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:52,920 process. 542 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,320 So it is quite streamlined once you start working on it. 543 00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,560 Well, I will say it helps to have two subject matter experts who make it very relatable 544 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,560 and accessible. 545 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,160 So we're super excited to have had you on the podcast. 546 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,280 I just want to say a huge thank you to both of you. 547 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,520 Helen, Joanna, thank you so much for coming on. 548 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,440 We really appreciate you sharing your knowledge. 549 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,320 I also want to say a huge thank you to our sponsor Bracewell LLP, Emily Kobroski for 550 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,600 her invaluable technical support in everyone listening. 551 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,080 Thank you for coming. 552 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,080 Positive or negative. 553 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,640 We hope to have your feedback and we hope you'll rate us online. 554 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,040 Please let us know if you have comments, questions or thoughts for future podcasts. 555 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,880 And for anyone who's interested in learning more about the association, our global events 556 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,240 or the initiatives that we're working on to increase inclusion, please check out our 557 00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:44,440 public LinkedIn page, our Twitter or Instagram pages at AWIC Global or our webpage at www.womenincrypto.org, 558 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,360 which is also where you can sign up and join. 559 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:54,200 Thanks again for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.