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Welcome to the first podcast hosted by the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency, sponsored

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by Bracewell LLP.

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Today's topic is the ugly truth about crypto, decrypting gender disparity.

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The Association is a global professional network of women and male allies around the world

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who advocate for the equitable inclusion of women in the future of digital finance, blockchain

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technology and web 3.

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The views of the speakers are their own and do not necessarily represent those of the

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Association, its sponsors or its board of directors.

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This podcast is our opportunity to showcase the incredible work being done by our members

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around the world in the crypto, blockchain and web 3 industries.

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I'm your host, Amanda Wick, founder and CEO of the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency.

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And I'm incredibly excited to not only be hosting our first podcast, but also to be

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talking with two incredible women in the industry.

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Lili, Tara, I won't do you justice because you're both incredible.

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So introduce yourselves and tell the world who you are.

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Lili, let's start with you.

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Hi, everybody.

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My name is Lili.

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I am a CEO, currently CEO of Cat Labs, which is a startup that is fighting crypto crime

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or building tools to fight crypto crime.

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And in my previous life, I was a special agent with Department of Justice, DEA, and I pioneered

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one of the early task forces for cryptocurrency enabled crimes that focused exclusively on

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crypto and dark web enabled crimes.

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And just last year, I was the lead agent on the case that took down Hydra market, which

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was the largest dark web market in the world and accounted for about 80% of all cryptocurrency

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dark web transactions.

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And now I just left the government and building a startup.

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Just left the government and changing the world.

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It's amazing.

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Tara, let's go to you.

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Hi, everyone.

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I'm also fighting crypto crime.

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So a nice common theme here.

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So I'm previously elliptic, where I headed up technical advisory and been in crypto now

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for about eight years, which feels like a lifetime.

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Before that, I was in the world of TradFi and then dusted around a number of crypto

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startups.

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I'm soon going to be in the institutional staking world heading up product for TwinStake.

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And outside of that, I have a crypto book, a crypto game, a crypto advent calendar.

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And you can find me writing, thinking and dreaming about all sorts of crypto metaverse,

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crypto crime topics.

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I have to say, I really want to see the advent calendar.

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I have a godson who is obsessed with them.

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And the idea of a crypto advent calendar is quite possibly the coolest thing I've ever

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heard.

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So very excited by both of you.

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And Tara, you point out something that I didn't realize, which is all of us have this background

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in crypto crime.

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I think it's a common thread about why we both love the industry and we love the potential

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for what it can do.

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But I think we've all seen also the negative that can be done with it.

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And so I think it makes us very objective and nuanced in our feelings about it.

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And I've noticed that between all of our posts is that we all see the good but we're all

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very cognizant of the bad.

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And I think coming from that shared perspective gives us a lot in common when we're talking

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about this.

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But today, we're talking about a different aspect, which I know all three of us are really

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passionate, which is the issue of gender disparity in crypto.

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And I do want to jump right in and talk about, I think, maybe a spicy topic first, which

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is the connection between crypto, toxic masculinity and something called the Manosphere.

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And Tara, I want to start with you because you recently wrote a report titled Crypto

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and the Manosphere, Exploring the Overlap Between Toxic Masculinity and Digital Assets.

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Now, I know you wrote that in your personal capacity, I think while you were at Elliptic,

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a blockchain analytics company that many of us are quite familiar with.

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But can you tell us like what was the impetus for that?

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What made you write the report and look into that issue?

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Yeah, definitely.

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So it wasn't actually any like trigger event with a toxic male in the space that I was

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like, you know, I'm going to research into this.

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It was actually my twin sister who is actually secretly Gen Z. She's not a millennial at

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all.

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Like everything she does is watching like YouTube, like mega podcasts that take like

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four hours.

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And she's super plugged into that space.

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And she said to me a couple of months back, she was like, my gosh, I can't believe how

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many of the Manosphere guys are talking about crypto.

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And obviously, I was like, what's the Manosphere?

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And so she kind of opened my eyes.

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That was literally my question was what on earth is the Manosphere?

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When you said that I had heard cryptosphere, I had heard toxic masculinity, but Manosphere

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was definitely new to me.

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Exactly.

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And it was brand new to me.

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So I was like, send me some videos.

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I want to see what all this is about.

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And the term was actually defined in 2009.

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So it's a pretty old term.

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But what it encompasses is four groups within the kind of like toxic male system, very specifically.

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So it's an umbrella term.

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And it's worth saying here, it's not the kind of bro culture.

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This is four really specific groups.

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So it's men's rights activists.

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And there's a lot of fantastic men's rights activists.

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But there's also a very like toxic branch of it, which is actually super against feminism,

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anti-female policies.

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So it's that branch of the male rights activists.

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There's also men going their own way.

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And that's a category of men who literally hate women.

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They think they're toxic.

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They don't want to be friends with them.

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They don't want marriage.

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You've then got the pickup artists, and these aren't like the kind of embarrassing guys

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you meet at a bar with, like, hey, did you fall from heaven?

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No, it's not those kind of men.

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Well, wait, I think I've used that one.

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Let's go gentle on that one.

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Well, luckily, it's not those kind of people.

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It's the pickup artists that believe in things like negging, which is where you insult a

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woman to try and bring her down.

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So it's that kind of brand of pickup artists.

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And then it's a really kind of scary group called the incels, which are involuntary celibates.

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They believe that kind of women are conspiring against them, that they have a right to have

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sex with women, and how dare they kind of take that away from them.

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So those four groups are under the term, the manosphere.

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And it's really worth saying here, it's really centered on hatred for women.

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So this isn't those men that are like, oh, women, yeah, they're a bit stupid.

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The comments you see, the videos you watch, and I've seen some horrific things and read

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some really awful things researching for the report.

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And it's around hatred, it's around inciting violence, it's against seeing women as real

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like low class.

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Some of the quotes in my report are actually quite hard, I think, to read, because it is

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pure hatred.

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And so that's what we're kind of talking about with the manosphere.

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And there's a growing group of manosphere influences, primarily slightly kind of the

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younger generation, very much millennial gen Z.

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There's a couple of like OG guys who are a bit older, but they're really prevalent on

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TikTok, on YouTube, on Twitch, for instance.

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And as my sister showed me, they're starting to get into the crypto space.

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So what my report was doing was an investigation into how exactly they're getting into crypto.

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Are they holding crypto?

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Are they doing crypto projects?

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Are they leading crypto courses?

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So in the report, I dig in and we can maybe talk in a bit about all the very different

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touch points they have with crypto.

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But what was really scary is to see that they have huge followings, millions and millions.

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And in some cases, like people like Andrew Tate have billions of video watches.

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And what they're espousing is hatred against women.

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It's really derogatory and really damaging.

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And then they're starting to get into the kind of crypto world.

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And you think, my gosh, that's absolutely not the people that we want coming into the

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industry.

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It's not the views we want coming into the industry and polluting those who maybe have

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in a crypto brew tendencies to start with, or maybe those that could be influenced that

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way.

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So that was very much the impetus for the report of just learning this word and being

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like, right, how big of a problem is this?

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I got to investigate it.

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I will say I don't usually talk about my past life in the last year that often.

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But there were shades of your report that talked about the overlap with hate groups

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and how it kind of blurs not just into issues with women, but also with race and homophobia

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and some other things.

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And the last year of my life that I spent on the select committee in the house, and

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there was echoes of that, that was kind of terrifying.

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But I will say, I was surprised when I read your report, because that part of the industry

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seems very foreign to me in the sense of like, I know about it.

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And I was a little bit thinking about crypto world culture and where did it overlap with

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the manuscript.

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It feels like such a small sector of the industry that a lot of us what I think of as professionals

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don't really pay attention to because it's like that Peter Pan syndrome area where they

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like, oh, don't want to grow up, right.

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And they just want to be little boys.

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But I feel like a lot of us spend time and like compliance and crime fighting and on

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all of this stuff.

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And we're building real things and we're solving real problems.

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And that feels like the previous version, like the early iteration of crypto.

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But you in your conclusions in the report, we're really concerned that there is in fact

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a risk of for lack of a better word, contagion between the manuscript and crypto.

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I definitely want to talk a little bit more about that because I feel like the naive part

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of me thinks that nobody takes that crowd seriously enough anymore for it to have actual

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risk of spreading.

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But you see that risk.

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Yeah, definitely.

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Because you've got and I'm sure we've all come across them, right.

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Like I referred to them as the DeFi frat boys, like the hype, hype, hype.

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You walk into a conference and they immediately like mansplain something to you that you could

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like and I enjoy like just ripping them to shreds on anything they say technically incorrect

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because my background is the kind of tech protocol level of things.

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So there's that kind of like group of people already in crypto.

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But what I worry about more is looking at the growth of the Manosphere at large.

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There's huge kind of, I almost don't want to call it recruitment drive, but a lot of

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the disenfranchised youth Gen Z kind of age coming in are really attracted by the hustle

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culture entrepreneur.

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And that's actually one of the real challenging things when you look at the content that these

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Manosphere influencers are creating.

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A lot of it is really good advice.

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Like for instance, like within the men going their own way, there is a really strong focus

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on mental health and they give great advice.

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Look after your mental health, don't work too hard, work life balance.

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And you're like, yeah.

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And then they go and women are evil and you're like, no.

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And so that's the challenge.

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Yeah, they like interweave these narratives.

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And so if you think of like Fresh and Fit, for instance, so they do these podcasts all

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about working hard, you know, respect other guys, like loads of really like strong, like,

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yeah.

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They do podcasts about money management, where they teach you about taxes, they teach you

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about investing and you're like, yeah.

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And then they also do the After Dark podcast where they bring in a load of women.

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They essentially make them fight against each other.

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They're really derogatory.

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They have topics like where there's a couple of men and they'll talk about who's the fattest

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chick you've ever banged, like really awful content.

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And they interweave it all.

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And the problem is you've got young guys listening to the content and they can't extrapolate

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what's good advice from what's really toxic masculinity.

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And so that's why I really worried that we've got this band of young men primarily being

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taught that the women are awful alongside, you know, make sure you put money into your

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pension and because they can't like tell the difference between them, they bring those

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who's in.

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And so that's what I'm really worried about in the industry because I think we have some

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really bad guys in the industry.

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Yeah.

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But like I think maybe we've found fairly rarely come across them or at least I do.

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I can put them in on one hand, the really bad ones I don't like, but it's this kind

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of influx I think we're going to see coming from the likes of these mannish for influencers

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who are getting into crypto from their podcasts and their videos.

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Why does it feel like what you just described is very effective brainwashing?

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Like when I read about kind of cult behaviors where it's like, don't start with something

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negative, start with something positive and then just kind of weave in the end, you know,

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this is the horrible thing in here surrounded by wonderful things.

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And I think that's the most terrifying thing.

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I also think that one of the areas that it seems riskiest to me in terms of like that

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crypto bro culture or maybe even the manuscript having an actual impact on the industry and

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not just being some YouTubers and crypto enthusiasts is venture capitalism or some people call

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it VC culture.

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A couple of weeks ago, I was at a summit in Paris called the Investor Summit where we

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talked about the horrifically low rates of venture funding for female founders globally,

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which I think globally the numbers at or below 2%.

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And it's even lower for people of color, it's even lower for women of color.

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And there's numerous studies showing the bias in VC funding in the process, the pitching

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process, the process that determine who gets funding.

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Lili, I know earlier you said you're the CEO and founder of Cat Labs, you're VC funded,

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you've seen that process firsthand.

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I'm curious if you're seeing any of this, do you see issues in that sector that support

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Tara's conclusion and my concerns about the Manosphere contagion, for lack of a better

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term.

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But do you see any parallels there?

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I think that for me, I had some issues, but there were enough investors out there.

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Thankfully, I had a good network and good mentors that were able to introduce me to

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many of the investors that are on my cap table now that don't succumb to the Manosphere and

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have nothing to do with that world and don't hold those kind of preconceived notions or

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unconscious biases about women and when they're hearing pitches.

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So I think for me, it wasn't that bad, but there were some issues that I experienced.

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For example, some of the investors would ask me questions such as, how are you going to

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be a CEO and a mother at the same time?

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What are you going to do with your daughter?

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And they would never ask this of a man, of course, but it's one of those things that

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it's just so tone deaf.

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And I just have to explain to them that I'm a big bad special agent right now and my schedule

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right now is probably a lot crazier than any CEO that you will ever know.

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And I'm probably having to juggle.

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But I think framing the issue is very important when you are trying to affect change here.

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So I don't like to be extremely confrontational in these kinds of situations.

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I like to enact the Socratic method if I have time or if the situation presents itself where

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I can actually ask questions and reframe the individual's state of mind and cause self

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reflection on their part.

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So I think that's a better way of affecting change or changing someone's mind.

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But a lot of times you just can't change someone's mind and you just move on.

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And there are plenty of people out there that are aware of unconscious biases and they actively

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try to fight them.

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And the investors on my cap table right now, I have many, I have, I think 12 right now

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investors on my cap table.

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And they were all super supportive and both men and women.

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So it was...

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Oh, that was going to be my next question.

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Are there women on your cap table?

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Absolutely.

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Yes.

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Several women on the cap table.

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And I'm curious, did you see any difference in terms of how like male versus female VC

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funders, like did you notice anything different in the process or the experience?

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No, not really.

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One thing that I did notice, and this is something that I talk about a lot and it's unfortunate,

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is that I actually got a lot more mentorship and support from men during the fundraising

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process than I did from women.

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And especially from women that would promise and do a lot of lip service to helping other

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women, being the champion for other women, promising that they would introduce me to

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investors or they would do this and that and it would never materialize and it was kind

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of disappointing at the time.

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So I did notice that trend that I actually got a lot better mentorship with men, unfortunately,

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during this process.

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So you have to navigate the process.

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You have to learn the game.

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And that's also on us on women, right?

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We have to...

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One of the main actually issues of why women don't get funded as much is women have higher...

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There are higher expectations that are put on women.

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And it's actually also true with women in leadership of why women don't get promoted

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as much to senior leadership is because there are higher expectations of performance.

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And I saw this too, as you know, in my previous job in a very, very, very male-dominated field,

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probably more than even tech, right, in federal law enforcement.

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I saw this a lot where women tended to work like twice as hard just to get recognized

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for the work that they do because they had to basically prove themselves and overcome

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this notion that, oh, well, this is not really a woman's job.

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And to prove to me that it is a woman's job, you have to do, go above and beyond.

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So there was this kind of background noise or I don't know how to put it in terms of

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just this notion, right, that women aren't supposed to be here, right?

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To the point where actually, I'll give you a crazy example.

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When I was doing my PT test, right, a physical fitness test, just to get hired, the instructor

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00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:23,360
that was administering my test told me that it's unfair that women have lower standards

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in physical fitness tests.

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For example, they have to do less push-ups, right, or they have to run the mile in less

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time.

304
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:31,760
Yeah, it's like slightly modified, right?

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00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:32,760
Right.

306
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Yeah.

307
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You know, they said because we're doing the same job.

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So he was, and you know, this guy was very, very against just women being on the job.

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And that was, and you can imagine, I'm already nervous trying to take this test.

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And he's telling me this, like, oh, women aren't supposed to be here.

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It's so unfair.

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You know, if they can't do the same physical activities as men, they shouldn't be on this

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job.

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You know, meanwhile, after you'd finished the academy, we never get tested for our physical

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fitness and everybody gets fat anyway.

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So, you know.

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I do want to pick on one thing that you said, draw out something that you said in there,

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which is something that comes up over and over at our association events, which might

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00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,440
be a topic even spicier than we were talking with.

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00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,360
And I think that's a good point, too, Sarah, which is that we don't talk enough about how

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00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:22,960
women can be an even bigger part of the problem than we like to admit, that we talk about.

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I know you and I have had these conversations, but that issue of women not only failing to

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support other women, but often actively sabotaging them.

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That is one of the issues that we hear from women at association events around the world.

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And I mean, across all cultures, you can be from Southeast Asia, you could be from Africa,

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you could be from the United States.

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The single common theme that we hear is that, in fact, for most women, is that their worst

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professional experiences are often from other women, and men are actually some of their

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biggest supporters.

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I know this was true for me.

331
00:18:56,500 --> 00:19:01,080
It sounds like it was true for you, or at least in certain situations.

332
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,080
Tara, I'm curious, because I know Lili and I probably align on that.

333
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,400
But would you agree, disagree, like what your experience has been with that?

334
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:15,040
So from my personal experience, I've come across some of the most incredible women in

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00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,040
this space.

336
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I've got a group of people from...

337
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,120
Okay, well, you work with Liatch.

338
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You work with Liatch, that's right.

339
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,320
So that's not entirely fair.

340
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:29,040
Because when you work with an angel, yes, it obviously is going to bias your view of

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the most incredible women in the world.

342
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Exactly.

343
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I mean, she's one of the people I'm thinking of.

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We've got this group who we meet all the time, we're like each other's height people.

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If anyone ever said to me, like, oh, I need someone in crypto who works in HR, I'm like,

346
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you need to speak to Lily Fish.

347
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There's just this group of women who are just all about helping each other.

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I think I've been lucky by the sound of it compared to some of your experiences.

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But I genuinely am sitting here struggling to think of a woman I've come across who I'm

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like, oh, she was actively out to get people.

351
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:07,600
The only bad experiences I can think of in crypto are with men.

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I can't think of any with women.

353
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Well, that actually gives me a lot of hope.

354
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:17,540
But I will say it also does explain, I think, some of the reactions that we see at the association.

355
00:20:17,540 --> 00:20:22,800
So some women, because they've had the experiences that Lili and I have, they are so excited

356
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when they find a group of women who...

357
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,280
So we have two roles in the association.

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We say this at all of our events.

359
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The first rule is no mean girls, which sometimes they have to translate into foreign languages,

360
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which is hilarious because mean girls as a concept doesn't necessarily translate.

361
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But once you explain what it is, like mujeres malas, then they're like, oh, okay, I know

362
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what you're talking about.

363
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That's the first rule.

364
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And the second rule is whether you're male, female, we want you so long as you believe

365
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:02,280
in supporting women and equitable inclusion of women in the future of digital finance

366
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and militantly advocating for it.

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00:21:04,860 --> 00:21:09,040
And I think what's amazing is that when women find that space, and it sounds like you found

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that space, which is awesome, because so many of us have that issue in our past, it does

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lead us to that.

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00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:17,100
It feels different.

371
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When we say this at association events, it's so funny because I tell people when I say

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the no mean girls rule, two things happen.

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I look around the room and there's women who are like, yes, all right.

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And then sometimes there's women who are like, and you just see this eye shifting and I'm

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00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:31,880
like, oh, found one.

376
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,600
Okay, you know, I know.

377
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,360
Because like, like, Lili smiling because she knows we know who they are.

378
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:39,440
Like they know who they are.

379
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,440
We know who they are.

380
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,440
Right?

381
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:42,720
Like, that's the first step.

382
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,400
The first actually the fact that they know who they are.

383
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:50,760
That means they're not in denial, which is, which is a first step is acceptance, right?

384
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,120
Maybe they're on their way to change.

385
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:59,400
I like to say, look, I want all the Regina Georges after they've been hit by a bus.

386
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:04,360
I just don't want Regina George before she's been hit by a bus.

387
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,040
I think everybody's capable of change.

388
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,640
But at the same time, we all know what happens, like, especially if multiple of them get together

389
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,640
and they start a click and it's just toxic.

390
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,240
And you see this in some women's groups where there's like a queen bee and there's women.

391
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:18,760
And this is very real.

392
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,040
Like it's there's a reason there was a movie and a musical like this is a very real aspect

393
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:24,200
of female culture.

394
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,960
And it's funny because we just had events in Madrid, we had this incredible brunch and

395
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,260
drinks but the brunch was really kind of like the session where we talked about building

396
00:22:33,260 --> 00:22:34,260
a chapter there.

397
00:22:34,260 --> 00:22:38,320
And culturally, the women were like, this is very real.

398
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,760
Globally you can go anywhere in the world.

399
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:46,220
And when you find women who support other women, something magical happens because we

400
00:22:46,220 --> 00:22:49,080
talked about historically actually was interesting.

401
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,080
Why was this not the case?

402
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,300
And if you go back hundreds of years, it's because women had to compete with each other

403
00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:57,280
for the resource that was meant because we were owned.

404
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,240
We were literally property and we competed with each other to be owned by the best owner.

405
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:03,240
Right?

406
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:08,880
So literally hundreds of years of baking competition for quote, limited resources.

407
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,600
And undoing that and undoing like the cycle of that, it requires effort.

408
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,000
Like I find that you kind of have to consciously talk about it and think about it.

409
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,520
It seems like we should be hundreds of years past that.

410
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,720
But frequently the reality is they're not.

411
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:23,260
Yes, but that's the thing.

412
00:23:23,260 --> 00:23:27,720
We have to be introspective in terms of, okay, what is it that's driving us?

413
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:34,640
And is this drive necessary in our day and age because our instincts don't necessarily

414
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,740
catch up with reality in a timely manner.

415
00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:38,840
And it's the same...

416
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,080
It's also very, very true for men, right?

417
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,360
Men because they want the best females, right?

418
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:49,340
They want the best mates and the most, you know, the highest number of mates.

419
00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:52,480
They are always in pursuit of power and resources.

420
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:58,480
So that goes back to, Tara, your report and the Manosphere and why the Manosphere world

421
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,880
got into crypto is, well, it was because of the bull market.

422
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,120
And I think the bear market is going to solve this problem because crypto is fast money

423
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:11,120
and men are attracted to that creation of wealth, right?

424
00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:12,120
Instinctually.

425
00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:17,000
So I think that being introspective and knowing what drives you both for men and women and

426
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:22,400
actually having that power to change those drives based on your reality and based on

427
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,120
the world we live in now is very important.

428
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:31,440
So in terms of that introspective and kind of like thinking about your almost animalistic

429
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,800
urges, what's really interesting when you listen to a lot of these Manosphere kind of

430
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,840
content producers is that they're basically saying, don't fight that.

431
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:40,840
That's who you are.

432
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,280
So when they talk about, you know, men wanting younger women and they talk about this idea

433
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,020
that when you reach 26, that's basically your peak.

434
00:24:48,020 --> 00:24:50,720
After that, you know, you're done as a woman.

435
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,560
And that they're basically telling men like, just embrace that, embrace the animalistic

436
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,240
tendencies that you have.

437
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,160
And that's actually one of the really damaging things about it is that they're just kind

438
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,600
of saying to these like men become Neanderthals again.

439
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,080
And then they're also saying to women, you can't fight your animalistic urges, but your

440
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:13,120
animalistic urges are that you're, you know, sexually promiscuous and that's bad, that

441
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,140
you just crave being pretty because you're simple, you're less intelligent, like all

442
00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:20,080
of those kind of really negative buckets of it.

443
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:25,920
So whilst I think introspection can be really good, actually what I see about the introspection,

444
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,600
the Manosphere is really, really bad.

445
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,800
Well, so here's where I would challenge that.

446
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,640
Because I find this interesting in that recently I read this incredible book called The Power.

447
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,240
I think it was by, what's her name, Naomi Alderman.

448
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,240
Don't quote me on that.

449
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,560
It came out like six years ago, I want to say, so I'm a little behind the curve.

450
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,480
They made it into a show on Amazon Prime.

451
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,920
But what I find absolutely fascinating about this book is that basic premise, all across

452
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:56,320
the world, one day, 15-year-old girls develop an organ that gives them the ability to electrocute

453
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,880
people, which suddenly shifts the balance of power between men and women.

454
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,260
And all of a sudden, women are literally just as empowered as men.

455
00:26:05,260 --> 00:26:10,080
And what's fascinating about the book is that what I love is that she talks about how a

456
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,520
lot of the things that we say are, quote, gendered, like what you were just saying,

457
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:14,520
right?

458
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,040
I think it's actually not male.

459
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:18,600
It's empowerment.

460
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:24,040
It's that historically one gender has, in fact, been empowered and has taken most of

461
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:25,040
the power.

462
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,520
And what you do with power is actually the question.

463
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,440
With great power, you know that expression from Uncle Ben, with great power comes great

464
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:33,440
responsibility.

465
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,400
And the question is, what do the genders do with that responsibility?

466
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,000
And her book, it's fascinating how she's fiction, obviously.

467
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,160
Sorry, I don't know why I said that as if someone around the world is growing this organ.

468
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,480
But it's fascinating because she really breaks down the difference between what we think

469
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:49,480
is gendered.

470
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,120
And this pisses me off all the time when people say that certain skills or traits are masculine

471
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:56,740
or feminine, when in fact, they're just skills or traits.

472
00:26:56,740 --> 00:27:01,480
And we can talk about how society has disincentivized or incentivized those.

473
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,760
That probably could have been its own podcast.

474
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:09,520
But I think we just have to be really careful when we talk about, and especially when we

475
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:14,800
use the terms masculine and feminine, for things that are just traits, right?

476
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,000
Like assertiveness, aggressiveness, confidence, self-assuredness.

477
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,640
I would not say any of these things are inherently masculine or feminine.

478
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,280
They're skills or traits that you can have, whether you're male or female.

479
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:32,080
So there's literally a Fresh and Fit podcast.

480
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,120
It's an after dark one.

481
00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:35,940
So with a bunch of women on there as well, where they discuss this.

482
00:27:35,940 --> 00:27:40,400
And they have a number of women who are very much aligned with one view, which is like

483
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,040
women are X, men are X.

484
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,040
There's some women and they tend to get kicked off the podcast, I don't know why, who have

485
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,680
the view which is more aligned with you, Amanda.

486
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,400
And then they have a couple of men on the podcast who obviously all believe that men

487
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,240
are men and women are...

488
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,200
And it's really interesting listening to that.

489
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,080
And I'm really hard to listen to it certainly with the views I have, which I think I'm much

490
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,100
more aligned with what you're saying, Amanda.

491
00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:06,120
But it's really interesting, this is a debate in the Manosphere as well.

492
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:07,960
Like they're having these debates.

493
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,460
Their conclusions are of course, like all the good traits in the world are dominated

494
00:28:12,460 --> 00:28:17,120
and naturally owned by men and all the bad ones are owned by women.

495
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:21,140
But a lot of these conversations, and this is what I come back to before about a lot

496
00:28:21,140 --> 00:28:24,180
of the Manosphere content is like interesting.

497
00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:27,800
Some of it's good advice and good content, but then it's interwoven with a lot of this

498
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,140
misogyny and toxic masculinity.

499
00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:34,360
And that's where it was researching this was really interesting because I listened to podcasts

500
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:39,160
where I was like jarred by some of the stuff they said was just like, wow.

501
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,600
And then I listened to other stuff and I was like, oh, that is a really good debate.

502
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,880
And then the influencer comes in with all women are hoes and you're like, oh, okay,

503
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:45,880
I'm there, finish.

504
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:46,880
It's an interesting debate.

505
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:47,880
Yeah.

506
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:48,880
Wait, what?

507
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:49,880
Yeah.

508
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:55,480
Just to challenge you guys a little bit and not too much because I do align with most

509
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:56,880
of what you just said, Amanda.

510
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:03,360
The only thing I don't align is, is I do believe that there are traits that are more masculine

511
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:08,540
and more feminine or that women possess more often and men possess more often, but it doesn't

512
00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:13,720
necessarily mean that a woman can't possess those more traditionally masculine traits.

513
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:14,720
Right?

514
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:19,080
So like, for example, myself, I think that I have more masculine traits than probably

515
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,480
the average woman.

516
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:25,880
But I think that things, you know, there is biology and we have hormones and there are,

517
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,760
you know, there are certain things in our bodies that dictate certain temperaments or

518
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,600
the proclivity towards a certain temperament.

519
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,300
For example, women have more connections between the left and the right hemisphere.

520
00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:38,600
It helps them multitask more.

521
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,200
I mean, there are certain things that are just biologically true and it doesn't necessarily

522
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,480
mean that there aren't men that can multitask.

523
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:46,480
Of course there are.

524
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,320
It's just kind of like an average.

525
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,960
And I feel like we can't deny this and we can't say, no, no, no, we're just a hundred

526
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:52,960
percent everything.

527
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:53,960
It just blanks late.

528
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,680
You know, it just depends on your personality.

529
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,440
There are some biological drivers for certain traits.

530
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,640
Aggressiveness, for example, you know, testosterone is responsible a lot for aggressiveness as

531
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:04,640
well.

532
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:05,800
You know, the trait of aggressiveness.

533
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:12,200
And I think the issue is here is that we tend to glorify traditionally more masculine traits

534
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,400
and say, okay, well, these traits are the ones that are going to make you successful.

535
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,840
Whereas a lot of the traditional feminine traits are not being glorified, which I think

536
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:27,520
are extremely important to emphasize when we talk about power.

537
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:28,520
I get what you're saying there.

538
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,640
I think one of the things, I think the thing that I would pick out of that and a hundred

539
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:38,240
percent agree with is that we need to emphasize like the value of certain skills and traits

540
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:39,240
more.

541
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,920
One of the things that was really interesting at the investor summit that came up to your

542
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,960
point was that they have done these biological studies and women and men, like their brains

543
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:48,560
are literally different, right?

544
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,840
And they found that men tend to be tunnel thinkers and women tend to think more in like

545
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,600
webs and connections and kind of like seeing different possible connections between people.

546
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,920
And you could see right where for a CEO or a founder, that would be incredibly useful.

547
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,240
And the discussion was, well, if the pitch process as we currently see it for VCs is

548
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,960
currently incredibly limited in terms of the skills that it assesses, right?

549
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,800
In terms of, okay, you get X amount of time, you pitch your company, right?

550
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:21,000
And to a certain extent, it rewards a lot of narcissism, self-assurance, bravado, right?

551
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,080
Like certain things where you're kind of like, okay, he talked the talk.

552
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,200
And for, yes, for some VCs, there's probably a lot of, you know, a lot more exploration

553
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:29,200
there.

554
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,440
But generally like the average pitch process values a very limited set of traits.

555
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,840
And so their point, which was interesting was, well, what if we change the pitch process

556
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:41,520
and made it so that it recognized like questions that talked about your ability to empathize

557
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,160
or longer like exposure, like taking a walk together.

558
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,480
Like basically changing the process to recognize that there are other skills and traits that

559
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,080
would make you a good leader long term, other than just this ability to convince people

560
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,200
to give you money in like a five-minute period, right?

561
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,120
Which is insanely narrow.

562
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:04,020
I will say one of the things that I heard from VCs, because I've talked to some of them

563
00:32:04,020 --> 00:32:08,160
on the side under Chatham House rules, because that question of how is it on earth that we

564
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,760
don't have more funding than 2% of women globally.

565
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,880
Obviously, I think everybody I've talked to has agreed that there's a pipeline problem.

566
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,720
We need more women with entrepreneurial spirits who are willing to take risks.

567
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,600
And that's a whole nother discussion we can have about women and how they assess risk

568
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:30,120
and why more women aren't willing to kind of start companies, start things, right?

569
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,960
But there is, and I've talked with VCs about this, sometimes a substance problem where

570
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:39,700
women founders don't have those skills of confidence, self-assuredness, empowerment.

571
00:32:39,700 --> 00:32:42,480
And I'm not even talking about the narcissism or kind of like the bravado.

572
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,040
I'm talking about the things that a person would need to feel in order to feel comfortable

573
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,480
giving another human money and investing in that.

574
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,560
Now, Lili, I've watched you.

575
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,280
You're a force as a founder.

576
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:59,880
You've successfully raised what your seed round of $4.3 million and a bear market is

577
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,440
a feat for Cat Labs.

578
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,000
And some of the VCs I know would say, okay, look at her.

579
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,000
Of course she raised money.

580
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,960
She's a baller, former DEA, doesn't take no for an answer.

581
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,320
I forget the term you used earlier, hotshot DEA agent.

582
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,520
If all women were like her during the pitch, the number would skyrocket up from 2%.

583
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,480
I have to say I struggle sometimes because I don't disagree with that.

584
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,800
Like to your point earlier, sometimes I think, and I think Tara mentioned this too, we're...

585
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,300
Some people say, oh, we're required to be exceptional.

586
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:31,760
But there are some things that I'm like, but some people would say those are fundamental

587
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:32,760
things.

588
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,920
You need confidence, self-assuredness, empowerment.

589
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:35,920
And I know there's bias.

590
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:36,920
I'm not saying there's not bias.

591
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,000
And I'm sure there are women who have those things that are not getting funded.

592
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,360
But I saw some of the women who were founders at that conference had conversations with

593
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:44,360
some of them.

594
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,360
And they didn't have those skills.

595
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:46,960
They didn't present themselves that way.

596
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,900
And I wouldn't have given them money, which I felt terrible about.

597
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,560
But I think we really have to talk about that, right?

598
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,600
I mean, you can't have people who say like, well, women should...

599
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,840
You have to have substance there, right?

600
00:33:58,840 --> 00:33:59,840
I mean, maybe I'm...

601
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:00,840
I don't know.

602
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,280
Maybe I'm just being too harsh.

603
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:03,280
And sometimes I am.

604
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:09,320
But I sometimes look and say, and I know I'm guilty of this, when a woman gets up and doesn't

605
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,480
crush it, sadly, she makes it harder for everyone else.

606
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:19,200
Because everyone will watch that and say, well, that was their token woman and the woman

607
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:20,680
didn't perform.

608
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:24,480
So that's why I don't know that we should have women speaking in a conference.

609
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:25,480
I've actually heard...

610
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,720
I've actually had men say this.

611
00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:30,800
Meanwhile, I've seen a lot of lackluster white men kind of get up and do average or below

612
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,160
average performances.

613
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,880
And then the lady afterwards says, I don't know that we want to have white men in a conference

614
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:35,880
again, do we?

615
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:36,880
Like, I...

616
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:41,680
Tara, you laugh, but literally when I say this to people, some men are like, oh, yeah, no,

617
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:42,680
that is...

618
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:43,680
Hmm.

619
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:44,680
Yeah.

620
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:45,680
For women, the stakes are high.

621
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:46,680
Yes.

622
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:48,600
Because when we succeed, we represent women.

623
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,720
And actually, so I was going through this in my previous job as an agent.

624
00:34:53,720 --> 00:34:58,480
I was mentoring a new agent who was a female, and she was making a lot of mistakes.

625
00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:59,960
She was messing up a lot.

626
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:06,200
She, you know, she would like wear flip-flops to surveillance, or she would forget her handcuffs

627
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,760
when we would go arrest people, things like that all the time.

628
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:16,560
And I would try to mentor her, and I would tell her, look, you can't afford to do this.

629
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,400
You literally have to be perfect for all of us.

630
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,280
Because if you are not perfect, it's going to reinforce the belief that women don't belong

631
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:24,280
here.

632
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,480
If a man forgets his handcuffs, nobody's gonna think twice.

633
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,120
If a woman forgets her handcuffs, that's it.

634
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,080
Oh, that's because women shouldn't be doing this.

635
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,600
Of course, she forgot her handcuffs.

636
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:39,720
You know, so it's a very pervasive problem, I think, in a lot of industries, male-dominated

637
00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:40,720
industries.

638
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:43,960
And, you know, we have to change that mindset.

639
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,720
We have to change that mindset.

640
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:51,080
And we have to do it in a very structured way, right?

641
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,120
Psychologically, yeah.

642
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,200
I agree with that.

643
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,240
I will say I struggle with that.

644
00:35:56,240 --> 00:35:57,240
I catch myself.

645
00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:59,320
I don't know if this has ever happened to you guys.

646
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:05,360
But I catch myself where I'm literally judging a woman for exactly that reason.

647
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:10,280
Because I know I watch them stand up at a conference, and if they bomb, I think of all

648
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,880
the conference planners that I'm going to talk to who are going to say, well, we have

649
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,040
this one woman, right?

650
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,280
Because exactly what you said.

651
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:22,920
But at the same time, I know that for, you know, women who come after, like, for true

652
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:29,840
equality and for it to be equitable, women should be allowed to be average and subpar,

653
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:30,840
just like men.

654
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:35,080
You know there's guys running around and flip-flops out on surveillance and forgetting their handcuffs,

655
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:36,720
and they're going to do just fine.

656
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:41,720
And there's a part of me that wants to say, but women should be allowed to be subpar,

657
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:42,720
too.

658
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:45,360
But to your point, I know the reality of what happens.

659
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:51,300
And I find myself in this constant internal struggle of wanting to both make the situation

660
00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:56,040
better in the broken game that we're playing, while also simultaneously trying to fix the

661
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,480
rules of a broken game.

662
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,360
And it is a constant cognitive dissonance and struggle that I face.

663
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,560
And I'm curious, do you, like, really, it sounds like you, I don't, do you guys feel

664
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:07,560
that?

665
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Like, do you ever have that experience?

666
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,000
Because I'm with you.

667
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,400
I just find myself struggling to be like, yeah, I want you to be below average and still

668
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:15,400
succeed.

669
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,760
I just don't, that's just not the world we live in right now.

670
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,840
I think the trick here is to, and I use this all the time in my daily life and business,

671
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,560
is to know the rules of the game, know the rules of the current game, and know how to

672
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,600
play the current game perfectly.

673
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,000
And this is where my mentorship to this woman comes in.

674
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,920
I'm not going to tell her you should be allowed to be average.

675
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,160
No, I'm going to tell her you can't mess up, you have to be perfect.

676
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,720
Okay, but at the same time, I go to the men and I say, look, you've forgotten your handcuffs.

677
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:48,720
Right?

678
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:51,360
It's okay that you forgot her handcuffs.

679
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:52,360
You've forgotten your handcuffs.

680
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,240
So you have to play both sides.

681
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:59,720
You have to know the rules of the game and play the current game while in the background

682
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:03,080
making slow and efficient change.

683
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,080
Right?

684
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:10,120
And change those mindsets and change those, reveal a lot of the cognitive biases that

685
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,840
we live by, unfortunately.

686
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,580
So just playing both sides, I think, is very important here.

687
00:38:15,580 --> 00:38:17,920
You have to kind of be a little conniving.

688
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,440
Yeah, I had a friend say to me one, and I don't know where she got the phrase from,

689
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:28,240
but it was, we'll know we have equality when useless women are in charge, or incompetent

690
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:29,240
women, I think it was.

691
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,280
And I was like, oh, that's such a good way of phrasing it, right?

692
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,980
Because like, as we're talking about here, you know, you've got a load of men that would

693
00:38:35,980 --> 00:38:38,600
forget their handcuffs or men that would mess up on stage.

694
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,360
And that's allowed, it's fine.

695
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,160
You're kind of like, oh yeah, of course it happens.

696
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,400
The moment you have a woman mess up, it's like, oh no, oh my gosh.

697
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,440
So I think that will be almost a positive.

698
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,600
We almost kind of want to say, yeah, kind of, it's okay to keep messing up because that

699
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,920
will be a mark of equality when the women that mess up are somehow leading stuff and

700
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,560
you're like, oh, she shouldn't be in charge.

701
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,320
But okay, at least we've got more women.

702
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,640
So yeah, I think that I loved when she said that phrase to me.

703
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:08,720
It really like stood out as a mark of like, oh yeah, that really is the balance of things.

704
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:09,720
Yeah.

705
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:13,240
And you know, to something that Lili said a moment ago, it's funny, I came out in the

706
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:17,840
same place and I tell people this all the time because I literally at the conference

707
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:23,600
on my panel, I said, I am now in a place where I want to change the rules of the game and

708
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,440
the association's mission is militant advocacy, right?

709
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,400
Sometimes to the point, like literally where I see something, say something, organization.

710
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,120
But I will say that I also say that for the women who are playing the game right now,

711
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,360
while the rules are broken, to Lili's point, why not try to be Serena?

712
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:47,560
Like if yes, should you be able to be an average or below average player and win just, and

713
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,320
that would make equality to men a hundred percent, but that's not the game that we're

714
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:52,320
playing.

715
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,520
So if you want to win now, this is what you have to, Lili's point, this is what you have

716
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:56,520
to do now.

717
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,400
And it's not fair, but I tell people like you can choose to be a better player because

718
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,400
you want to win or it's totally fine.

719
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:09,800
It's not worth winning and just do your life and be happy and try to fix the rules of the

720
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,200
game for the next generation.

721
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,100
I will say that one of the things that Lili said that I also kind of want to like pick

722
00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:21,400
out on is that we are always inclusive and we encourage men to come to our events because

723
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,280
of exactly that, working both sides.

724
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:29,000
And I'm always excited and thrilled when men come because it's always an empathy building

725
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:30,000
exercise.

726
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,560
Well, when I talked to male conference planners, I had a male conference planner, I put forward

727
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:40,520
a woman and he said, oh, I don't know that she, she had the title, but he said she looked

728
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,640
too young and he wasn't sure if she was senior enough.

729
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,080
And I said to him, I was like, but you frequently have their 20 something year old CEO who looks

730
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:53,640
like a man child speak, but he has the title and he looks young, but she has the title

731
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,440
and she looks too young to speak.

732
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,040
And he actually caught himself and was like, oh my gosh, I never noticed I did.

733
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,040
You're right.

734
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,120
It was such an interesting, and we have men that come to events.

735
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,240
I had one guy that came to an event and we have facilitated networking and the guy was

736
00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:11,720
sitting at a table and another man was there and the other guy didn't follow the instructors,

737
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:15,320
just launched into a thing, just started like explaining something in crypto.

738
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:20,040
And the other gentleman came up to me afterward and said, this is what it's like for you at

739
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,080
conferences and things like that.

740
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:27,280
It's just like a man just sits there and just suddenly it starts explaining things to you.

741
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:33,400
And I looked at him, I said, does a man explain, does a man's plane, does a man's planning

742
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:34,400
happen?

743
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,400
Yes.

744
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:40,680
But the thing is, is that in your day to day life, if you don't see it, right, this is

745
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,040
why I say, see something, say something, because so many men, it's unintentional.

746
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:45,040
They don't see it.

747
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,640
But the minute that you pointed out to them, once they see it, they can't unsee it.

748
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,520
And this guy was like, when I, he's like, I'm sitting here thinking of a lot of work

749
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:54,520
meetings.

750
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,920
I see, like I am seeing it differently now because he was the minority at a meeting of

751
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,000
so many women and experiencing that was a huge thing.

752
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:08,440
So the importance of the empathy and the reason I bring it up is because I think it leads

753
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:13,040
to one of the most important topics that I'm super passionate about, which is Tara, while

754
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,680
we talked about how men and the manosphere can absolutely be part of the problem, I think

755
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,800
to Lili's point and something I feel strongly about, they have to be and often are a huge

756
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,760
part of the solution, right?

757
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:30,240
It's why we are inclusive of men in the association, why they were some of our earliest sponsors

758
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:31,280
and supporters.

759
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,600
I talk about male allyship all the time.

760
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,560
I'm a broken record about it.

761
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,480
And I'm curious how you guys feel about it.

762
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,880
Is it more or less equally important?

763
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,720
Lili, I know you touched on this, Tara, if you have thoughts, I'd love to have them.

764
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:50,280
But I feel like I'm a broken record about male allyship, but maybe I'm alone in that.

765
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:51,280
I don't know.

766
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,600
Yeah, I think it's super important.

767
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,080
And I remember actually back in, I would say it was like maybe 2017.

768
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:03,280
So women of Silicon Roundabout did a conference and one of the final speakers said, look around

769
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,240
the room, it's just women.

770
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:09,520
And she was like, in the nicest possible way, this conference has been women complaining

771
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,560
about problems to other women who already know the problems because they're women.

772
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,840
And she was like, next year, I want every woman to bring a man with them.

773
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:23,520
And I've seen conferences do similar things where they'll offer free tickets to men.

774
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:29,280
And I love a free conference ticket for stuff, but I think for many conferences where it

775
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,160
is about females in the space and they're very focused on getting women into crypto,

776
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,920
you have to be pushing to get more men there because otherwise it's women complaining to

777
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,080
other women in a room of women.

778
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,640
And that's never going to make a difference.

779
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:46,920
So yeah, I think it's super duper important to have male allies to exactly as you said,

780
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:51,480
to change people's perspectives, approaches, open their eyes to these things, because that's

781
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,920
the only way you're going to get change.

782
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,080
And I can think of a number of the problematic men that come to mind in crypto.

783
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:04,040
Actually the scary thing is a lot of them will say, oh, I really support women in crypto,

784
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:05,520
really, really for it.

785
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:11,800
And then they do stuff and you're like, that is so unhelpful to me personally, but other

786
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:12,800
women in crypto.

787
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,640
And I think the only way you can kind of get them past that stage of holding up the banner

788
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,200
of like, who are women in crypto to actually like helping is by getting them along to more

789
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,080
events, educating them much more about the challenges.

790
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,560
But also just, I think a lot of this comes down to exposure.

791
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:34,240
They just need to see there are kick-ass women in the industry who understand the industry,

792
00:44:34,240 --> 00:44:37,200
who can raise a shed ton of money in a bear market.

793
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,280
You've done incredible things to catch crypto criminals as we kind of all have, who can

794
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,040
speak super technically about things and actually a conference today.

795
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,800
And there's a whole bunch of women in the room.

796
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,720
There's a whole bunch of women speaking.

797
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:51,440
We've got, you know, Matt's formula on screen.

798
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,160
Like it's super duper technical.

799
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,520
And I wish more of the men that kind of weren't fully subscribed to the idea of women in crypto

800
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,880
could see that because if they could see more of these amazing women, I think maybe that

801
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:04,520
would change their perspective on things too.

802
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:05,520
Yeah.

803
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:11,640
And I think also about changing perspective, we need to use a more targeted strategy.

804
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,480
I guess that's worked for other people in the past.

805
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:20,800
So you can try to affect change by yelling and screaming and saying, this is wrong.

806
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:21,800
You guys suck.

807
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:26,800
You know, you're all misogynists and toxic masculinity and all this stuff, right?

808
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:33,000
But a lot of times this kind of approach that only relies on this kind of activism, so to

809
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,480
speak, is not very effective because a lot of times it'll alienate the group that you're

810
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,040
trying to convince, right?

811
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:42,640
And they start feeling defensive.

812
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,080
They actually get desensitized to the problem.

813
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,200
A lot of the times.

814
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:53,560
And I like to bring in one of my idols that I really respect is RBG, right?

815
00:45:53,560 --> 00:46:02,280
RBG is five foot negative hundred pound woman on whose shoulders we all stand today.

816
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,320
And she was just absolutely incredible at changing people's minds.

817
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:08,320
And she's a lawyer.

818
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:09,320
And Amanda, just like you, right?

819
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:10,320
She's a lawyer.

820
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,720
She was a lawyer.

821
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:15,960
And she knew how to argue and she knew how to strategically change people's minds without

822
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:17,400
just screaming, this is wrong.

823
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:18,400
This is wrong.

824
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:23,200
And I think she kind of used a three prong approach, which is she knew how to frame the

825
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:29,080
issues to her audience, framing it and making people understand it if they don't understand

826
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,400
it the way that you're presenting it.

827
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:37,380
So an example would be how she framed discrimination on the basis of sex or on the basis of gender.

828
00:46:37,380 --> 00:46:45,600
She actually changed the word sex for the word gender to be, I guess, more general.

829
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:52,260
And one of her first cases that kind of sprung up and caused a lot of the changes in legislature

830
00:46:52,260 --> 00:46:57,560
was actually discrimination against a man where there was social security benefits that

831
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:03,800
a man, a widower didn't get because he was a man because of the way that the legislature

832
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,760
was structured at the time.

833
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:13,240
So she actually used that case to illustrate to the all white male judges, right, in the

834
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:17,260
Supreme Court that this needs to change, that we shouldn't be discriminating on the basis

835
00:47:17,260 --> 00:47:19,320
of sex or the basis of gender.

836
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:24,000
And so framing the argument is very important.

837
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:28,280
Another thing that we can do is build relationships and we as women know how to do that.

838
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,600
I know you don't think that there's male and female qualities, but I think women do tend

839
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,560
to be very good at building relationships.

840
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:42,280
And building relationships, same thing, RBG was friends with Justice Scalia.

841
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:47,920
And even though they disagreed on a lot of the issues, but she still respected him and

842
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,800
they respected each other and it wasn't like an us versus them, right?

843
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:57,560
So just understanding the perspective and where the other party is coming from is really

844
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:58,560
important.

845
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,520
And then the last stage is the Socratic method, which I love, right?

846
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:08,840
It's basically asking questions to change someone's mind and framing questions in a

847
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:14,480
way that forces people to reevaluate their belief systems and understand that they have

848
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,040
certain biases.

849
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:22,120
And this can be like, for example, one of the main biases in VC is pattern matching.

850
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:30,100
When you are an investor and you are watching a pitch, if the person looks like Mark Zuckerberg,

851
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:34,600
you automatically are a lot more likely to invest in them just because they look like

852
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:38,800
Mark Zuckerberg.

853
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,240
Our brains are naturally...

854
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:43,240
We have heuristics...

855
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:44,960
Wires to short circuit for efficiency.

856
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:45,960
Yeah.

857
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:46,960
Right.

858
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:47,960
Yeah.

859
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:48,960
We have heuristics, right?

860
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,600
We have kind of boxes that we put things into that help us make decisions.

861
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,800
And these heuristics are amazing because obviously you can't...

862
00:48:55,800 --> 00:49:00,160
If we had to...every time we had to make a decision, we had to kind of gather information

863
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:01,880
all from scratch, right?

864
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,360
That would be extremely inefficient.

865
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,600
So that's why we have these heuristics that our brain uses.

866
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,000
But unfortunately, that creates a lot of unconscious biases.

867
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:16,880
So breaking down those biases and making people understand that they have those biases, right?

868
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,320
Just the fact that I'm looking at someone that looks like Mark Zuckerberg doesn't mean

869
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:25,120
that they're gonna be a good investment and they're gonna be just as successful, right?

870
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,040
So it's...

871
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:32,120
I think having that 3-pronged approach is very effective.

872
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,400
And this is how RBG changed the world, I think.

873
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:40,640
And that's how we can change the world in a less aggressive manner.

874
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:45,000
And I also like to give an example of the vegan movement.

875
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:48,840
How the vegan movement is not very effective because they're just screaming at the top

876
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:54,560
of the lungs and deal-tripping people saying, you eat meat, you're a bad person, you're

877
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,080
killing animals, etc., etc.

878
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,920
It's not the best way to go about it and it alienates a lot of people.

879
00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:06,320
But there is a guy, there is a vegan activist named Earthling Ed, who uses the Socratic

880
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:07,320
method.

881
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:13,580
He literally goes out to like campus, college campuses and just on the street.

882
00:50:13,580 --> 00:50:19,880
And he makes a statement in a banner and then he allows people to come and debate him.

883
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,880
And it is incredible.

884
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,360
You see somebody like, ah, you're a stupid vegan, you're crazy.

885
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,880
And then by the end of the discussion, they're like, oh, yeah, maybe you're right.

886
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,280
He uses these very empathetic questions.

887
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:40,680
And based on how the person responds to those questions, he just tweaks his next question

888
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,600
to kind of make the person understand where he's coming from about the vegan movement.

889
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:49,840
I would highly encourage, even if you don't care about veganism, whatever it is, just

890
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:51,960
watch the way he debates with people.

891
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:52,960
It's incredible.

892
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,440
He has so much empathy.

893
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,640
He has so much understanding for people's point of view.

894
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,200
Only you could get me to watch a video that advocated for veganism.

895
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,960
You know, you know how much this girl loves her meat.

896
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:10,640
Like, so I will, I will watch Earthling Ed just because I 100% agree with you.

897
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,920
And it's something we do at the association all the time.

898
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:19,820
I mean, I will say, I think people know because I say it exhaustively that I'm militant about

899
00:51:19,820 --> 00:51:26,720
the advocacy, but I really think militancy and aggressiveness are very different, right?

900
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:31,440
So I think like going back, so I want to try to thread together some things that you said

901
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,440
because we're kind of running out of time.

902
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:38,140
But I love, I think a lot of, I think so much of what we said ends up on a similar page

903
00:51:38,140 --> 00:51:39,800
of Tatara's point.

904
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:44,640
There's a toxic aspect, right, of certain parts of the culture.

905
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:49,480
Obviously not all men are doing this, but there are people who are taking good things

906
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,640
and are doing them badly, right?

907
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,880
Or are doing them for their own purposes that we have to be really careful about.

908
00:51:54,880 --> 00:52:00,080
And we have to be really careful that we acknowledge that yes, statistically there are certain

909
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:01,440
things that men do more.

910
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,740
There are certain things that women do more.

911
00:52:03,740 --> 00:52:06,800
But at the end of the day, some of them are just traits and skills.

912
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,240
And for those of you that are playing in a rigged game that want to be the best and want

913
00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:15,280
to win, to Lili's point, you're going to have to be better at getting some of those skills

914
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:20,660
and traits that you might not statistically be the likely gender to have, 100% agree.

915
00:52:20,660 --> 00:52:23,860
But then taking it all back to we would all benefit more.

916
00:52:23,860 --> 00:52:25,720
And I 100% agree.

917
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:29,520
And I think the association strives to do this with whether you're male or female having

918
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:35,860
the skill of empathy and not being confrontational in this, but having a Socratic discussion

919
00:52:35,860 --> 00:52:40,840
and questioning and bringing nuance back to civilization, which has been unfortunately

920
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,040
ripped out.

921
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,360
And I think that that is all such good advice.

922
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:50,080
And I love it because the original topic was decrypting gender disparity.

923
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,000
And I think those are all fantastic suggestions.

924
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,120
I know I'm going to take some of them back to the association.

925
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,160
Tara, I know it came up at investor summit that there was like one or two men in the

926
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,960
room and how we all wanted to have more men there.

927
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,920
So I will say to the men listening, to the women listening, get more men to listen to

928
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,280
this, share it with your favorite man.

929
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,520
Even if you don't know that he's an ally, I will say the number of men who come to our

930
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:18,320
events who have daughters, granddaughters, nieces, they want the world to be better for

931
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,640
them, for their wives.

932
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,100
And I think they're some of our biggest supporters.

933
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:27,840
So I will just end this on Lili, Tara, I can't think of two women who would have been better

934
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:29,320
to have this discussion with.

935
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:33,520
I appreciate all the incredible work that you guys are doing in this space, not just

936
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,580
incredible to have you for our inaugural episode, but to discuss such important topics with

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00:53:37,580 --> 00:53:39,360
two people who are so in it.

938
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:45,000
We want to say a huge thank you to our sponsor Bracewell LLP and everyone listening who hopefully

939
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,520
came with open hearts and minds.

940
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,760
Positive or negative, we welcome your feedback and we hope you'll rate us online.

941
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,680
Let us know if you have comments, questions or thoughts for future podcasts.

942
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:59,560
For anyone who is interested in learning more about the association, our global events or

943
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:04,020
the initiatives we're working on to increase inclusion, check out our public LinkedIn page,

944
00:54:04,020 --> 00:54:11,360
our Twitter or Instagram pages at AWIC Global or our webpage at www.womenincrypto.org, which

945
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:13,600
is also where you can sign up and join.

946
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:34,640
Thanks again for tuning in and we hope to see you next time.