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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you

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today.

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Thank you so much for tuning in.

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Well, today's episode, I'm going to be talking to you about my stages of growth in research.

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And actually, to be honest, it's kind of my stages of growth and research, and it's not

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exactly linear.

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I've really been thinking about it over the past few days as I have thought about my transition

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over the last few years to lead a research program.

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And I think it's taken a while to grow into the identity of the leader of a research program,

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because when I started, I just wanted to do research.

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Eleven years ago, a new faculty member, I just was like, I just want to do research.

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And they're like, well, what do you want to do research in?

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I don't know.

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I just want to do research.

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I just want to do research.

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And then I start to do research and I realized that, oh, all research is not created equal,

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and I don't want to do all research equally.

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And so there is a journey that you go through.

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There are phases that you go through in your being drawn to research.

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And I recognize that because I feel like I've entered into a new phase recently.

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And I'll tell you that when I first started, sometimes you just start where you are and

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you're just like, well, this is the project that's in front of me.

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Let me do it.

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And it may not even be the project you want to do.

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And then you start to succeed.

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And then people are like, well, this is what you do.

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And you're like, no, that's not really what I wanted to do.

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I was just trying to get some practice.

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And here I am.

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But then you end up with all these projects that are succeeding, but they're not the thing

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you want to do.

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And so over time, as I've started to shift toward the thing I really want to do, and

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to be honest, it took me a long time to figure it out.

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And I finally got to a place where I was like, OK, well, now that I figured out this is what

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I want to do, how about I put these other projects aside and I go all in on this project?

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And so I finally feel like I got to a point where I've given everything else away.

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I've tucked some things in.

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I've tidied up some stuff.

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And I'm like, you know what?

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Now I want to really focus here.

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This is the thing.

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This is the thing I really want to contribute to.

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And so it's a journey to get there.

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And so I want to talk about stages of growth.

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And I want to talk about it.

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And I hope that as I speak that this might resonate with you on your journey.

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And the reason I think it's important is because sometimes we're going through things and then

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somebody names them for us and we're like, yes, yes, this is it.

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This is exactly what I'm feeling.

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And it just is so affirming and it's validating.

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Or it may be that you're listening, oh, yeah, no, that doesn't resonate with me at all.

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But it may resonate with someone else that you are critical to.

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For example, maybe you're mentoring people and they're going through these phases and

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it's important for you to help them grow and develop.

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And so this may be relevant.

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And again, the reason I want to share it is because I'm a clinician who said I want to

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lead research.

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And I was at a point in my career where people felt like, well, you haven't really done much

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in terms of research.

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So I don't think you really want to do this.

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We're not really sure we can support you to do this.

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And I think many clinicians find themselves in that space.

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So I want to just share some language for you to think about and whether it applies

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to you or whether it may apply to somebody that you mentor.

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OK?

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All right.

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So the first thing I want to talk about is the call.

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The call.

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But I do think it's important to talk about the call, like hearing the call to lead research.

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Now being a scholar is part of academic medicine.

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You as a scholar in academic medicine, you think about it critically, you read the articles,

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you quote the articles maybe, you teach.

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Scholarship is just part of what we do.

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But when you say, I don't just want to be someone who's studying or who's understanding

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an area of scholarship.

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I want to be someone who's leading an area of scholarship.

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That's different.

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It's like, OK, you want to lead.

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What do you mean?

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Well, I want to lead a research program.

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And say, OK.

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That's a call because everybody's contributing to scholarship.

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Everyone's part of the scholarship environment.

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But few people are leading an area of scholarship.

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When you say, I want to lead, I want to be the person who asks questions.

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And then I want to be the person who develops the experiments to answer those questions.

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And then I want to be the person to decide what the next set of questions that need answering.

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I want to lead this program of scholarship.

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That is different.

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That is different.

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Especially when we think about the fact that if we have a clinical background, we were

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trained to take care of patients.

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That's what clinicians are trained to do, take care of patients.

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Yes, study the literature, know what's the best evidence based strategy to take care

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of your patient.

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But our goal is to synthesize what's already there.

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When we say, well, I want to be the person leading the data that's being or the data

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generation that others are needing to synthesize to care for patients.

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That's a different space.

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And it requires a different set of skills.

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And it requires something different.

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And so to some extent, it is a call because it's different from what everybody else around

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you is doing.

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And it may mean that you have to put in more beyond where you are to succeed in that way.

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And so it is a call.

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And the first thing is, are you called to do it?

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And I think it's important because it's especially because we're in environments of scholarship

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and depending on the academic medical center you are in, people expect different things.

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Like maybe there's an expectation that everybody should be publishing, everybody should be

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writing grants and all of that.

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And so sometimes there's the whole idea that everybody should do it, especially in the

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more intensive research institutions.

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But everybody does not want to.

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I mean, people will play the game.

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It's like, oh, is this what's required to make an A?

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Sure, I can do this.

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We're good at doing that.

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We're clinicians.

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We did the whole thing for med school, residency, fellowship.

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But is it what you want to do?

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Is it what you want to do?

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And so everybody is not necessarily feeling the pull to do it, but some people are.

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And so it's like, do you have the call?

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And if you don't have the call, it's okay.

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If you don't feel like this is what you want to do, it's okay.

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Contribute to scholarship.

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There's always going to be room for contribution.

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But when you want to lead, not just contribute, but to lead an area, that's something that

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I think people are called to do.

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And that's something that I think is important to recognize that there is a call.

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And sometimes if you're having a conversation with a young person whose early career is

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to find out what is driving their need.

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Some people just want a publication and that's okay.

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Find them a way to get published.

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Find them a way to be a co-author on a publication.

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But when people say, I want to lead research, that's different from just having your name

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on an authorship byline.

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That's different.

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But everybody doesn't feel called to do that.

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People might say they feel called to do that just so they can get into the program, but

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everybody doesn't feel the call.

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And I think the important thing is number one, do you feel like this is what you're

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supposed to be doing or you want to do?

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Okay.

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So clarifying the call.

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Number two is answering the call.

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I think this is really important because just because you want to do something doesn't mean

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you end up doing it for different reasons.

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Life.

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Life comes at you and you're like, oh, you know, I always thought I wanted to lead a

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research program, but you know what?

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Right now I just need to pay off student loan debt.

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Bye.

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And it's okay.

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Not everybody answers the call.

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And I think that in thinking about whether you answer the call or not, you do have to

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sit down and count the cost because like anything else in life, there's a price to be paid for

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the end goal.

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And the question is, are you ready to pay the price?

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Are you willing to pay the price?

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Because if you're a clinician, you've invested your life, your 20s in medical school and

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residency and maybe even in fellowship and you studied so hard and you've just, you've

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done a lot of investment and then you do all of that, you're a faculty member and then

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there's like, oh, here's the other set of investments that you need to make if you're

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going to lead a research program.

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Some people may say, no, thank you.

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How about I just quit all of this and go make a lot of money elsewhere doing something different?

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And some people make that choice and it's not good.

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It's not bad.

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It's just you.

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We don't all answer the call, but if we're going to, we should ask ourselves, well, what

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does it cost?

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Like, what is this thing about?

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And then ask whether we want to pay the price.

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And sometimes we don't even really know what it costs, right?

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For those of you who got into medical school, you remember life before medicine, you had

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no idea what you were really getting into.

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And then life post-medicine or at least in the middle of medicine, you're like, oh, if

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only I had known that this is exactly how what it costs.

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I don't know if I would have made the same decisions.

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Sometimes it's like that in research.

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But again, there are some things that you can tell upfront and you decide whether you

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want to be the person who's writing grants all the time or publishing all the time or,

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you know, you decide.

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And some people answer that call and some people don't.

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But number two is answering the call.

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Number three is finding the right environment.

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Now this is the space where people talk about mentoring and the importance of a primary

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mentor and how, oh my gosh, you've got to find the right mentor.

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And as much as I am an evangelist for having mentoring teams rather than just the one person,

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I do think that when you're starting out, you really need an environment of support.

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I think that's what's most important, not so much the right mentor, because the thing

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about the mentor that people don't talk about is that the mentor comes with resources, not

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just money in their research program, but people who surround their research program,

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who are also part of your environment of training or also part of the culture of learning.

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Now do you have an environment that supports you to succeed?

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When you're a clinician and you're like, well, instead of seeing patients eight days

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or eight hour, eight sessions a week, and, you know, just driving clinical care, I want

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to be the person leading a program of study.

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Well that means you have to do things a little bit differently to be able to carve out the

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time to succeed as a researcher.

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And that means maybe you're not going to be as immersed in the clinical space, not in

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the same way that other people who are primarily clinicians are going to be.

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And it's hard because you're going against the grain of the people who surround you.

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You need support.

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Otherwise you're going to not succeed in answering this call.

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And so finding the right environment that acknowledges your deficits, I mean, I don't

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want to say deficits because it's like, oh, something wrong with you.

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It's just that you don't have the skill set built up yet.

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So you are not yet skilled in this research pathway.

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Do you have the right environment that supports you to build the skills?

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And to be honest, every environment is not the right environment.

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There are environments where they're like, oh yeah, you can go in research after you

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finish your eight hours of clinic daily for five days a week.

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Oh, you can do your research.

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That's not going to be an environment in which you're going to be able to grow skills.

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It's not likely, right?

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The environment you want to find is an environment that says, oh, building research skills takes

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time and energy and effort and you need time and space to do it.

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How can we support you to find the time and space to do it?

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That's the kind of environment you want to be in.

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And the other environment is also the environment of like, okay, well, let's take the time to

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help you grow in the skills.

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Let's not berate you, call you names, tell you you're not worthy, make you feel bad for

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skills that you don't have yet.

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It's like yelling at a kid who can't walk or it's like, well, I'm just a year and a

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half.

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I don't know how to walk yet.

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Do you have the right environment that supports you, encourages you, and nurtures you to succeed?

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That is finding the right environment.

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And the benefit for many of us who have great mentors or great mentoring is that it's not

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just the primary mentor.

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It's that they come with a whole cadre of individuals.

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There's the senior postdoc.

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There's the earlier career postdoc.

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There's the graduate student, the senior graduate student.

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There's the med student in the lab.

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Different people at different career stages speaking the same language, being immersed

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in the same culture of investigation and inquiry and hypothesis generating and hypothesis testing.

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It's a beautiful experience in the right environment.

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And there's the environment that's toxic.

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And people yell at each other and steal each other's data and make each other look bad

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and do some things that are questionable ethically.

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And there are different kinds of environments.

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If you're going to succeed, if you're going to thrive as a leader of a research program

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that you're proud of, you're going to want to find the environment that nurtures you

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and supports you.

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And if you can't find the environment, you're going to think about how do I create for myself

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an environment that nurtures and supports my growth as a researcher.

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So number three is finding the right environment.

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Number four, it's a theoretical knowledge.

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Now this is where it does matter that you take coursework.

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And I'm not talking about coursework so you can get a grade.

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And it's helpful to have a degree, but not always necessary.

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But there is a foundational theoretical knowledge that helps you be refined in the work you

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do.

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You can get a lot of practical knowledge, but the theoretical knowledge is helpful too

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because what it does is it helps you put your practical knowledge into context.

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And for many of us, it is relevant.

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It is important.

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So maybe we don't get a PhD, maybe we get the master's in clinical investigation.

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That's my master's in clinical investigation.

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But those foundational body of knowledge that helps you grow as a researcher, that's so

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critical, that's so important.

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Now this knowledge doesn't have to come out of a classroom where you sit in a lecture

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hall for hours and hours on end.

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It can come from the practical environment of your research environment.

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That's where you are attending lab and people are giving presentations on their project

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and there are updates in their project like, okay, this is where we are, this is what we're

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doing.

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These are my updates, those are my updates.

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And then you're like, oh, okay, this is how you did this project.

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And people ask questions.

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And there's a whole culture of learning that comes with that.

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That's actually theoretical knowledge because you're not working on their project, but as

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they're presenting the challenges of their projects, you're learning and you're growing

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in that way.

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And so it's how can you immerse yourself in an environment where you're growing in theoretical

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knowledge as well as you are in practical knowledge as well.

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Okay, so gaining theoretical knowledge is the fourth stage.

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The fifth stage is gaining general skills.

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Now when you first start and you're like, well, I just want to do research.

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That's where I was when I started 11 years ago.

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I was like, I just want to do research.

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And I had areas of interest, but I was like, I just, the area of interest in me is not

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as important as the fact that I just want to do research.

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And I think that's so important because many of us don't know.

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It's like asking a five-year-old, what do you want to be when you grow up?

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It's like, well, I don't know yet.

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And that's a fair answer.

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Though when we are early career and we're saying, I don't know yet, it doesn't look

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good, but it's true.

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It's like, well, I haven't even really been exposed to different analytical methods or

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to different ways of testing hypotheses or to different disciplines.

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I'm not sure yet what program of study I want to lead.

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I have a general idea, but what matters early on is gaining the general skills.

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It's not so important what the project is.

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And so many times people are like, oh, I want to find the right project, but it's not so

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much the right project as much as it's the right environment.

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The right project in the wrong environment is the wrong project.

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The wrong project in the right environment will always help you grow.

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And so it's not so much the right project as much as are you gaining the general skills.

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It's not so much what grant am I applying for, but are you applying for grants and applying

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and gaining the skills in grant writing?

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It's not so much, oh, what manuscript or what journals are you submitting to?

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It's as much as are you going through the process of submitting high quality work that

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can be accepted or at least favorably reviewed by high quality journals.

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It's the skills that you're growing in that matter really early on.

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And that's why at the beginning, the project is not as important as the fact that you are

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just working and moving things forward.

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It's helpful if you already have an area of expertise or an area that you're interested

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in.

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But oftentimes for us as clinicians, we kind of do need to be expedient and say, okay,

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well, what am I really good at?

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What do I really enjoy clinically and how can I layer my research interests on top of

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my clinical interests?

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So it's helpful to move that forward.

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But early on, don't focus as much on the project as much as you're focused on what you're growing

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in, what skills you're building and making sure that you are growing in the skills.

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And so this is where it's important to have a peer network too.

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They're saying, well, what skills are important?

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Or having mentorship models where people can say these are the skills that you need to

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grow in to succeed in this way and then making sure that you are gaining those skills.

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And so that the specific, oh, this is what I'm contributing to, may not be as important

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as learning the skills and growing in your research skills.

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Okay.

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So that's number five is gaining general skills.

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Number six is discovering a passion.

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I think that's so important, but it's not where I started.

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I believe in passion.

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I think it's so important to do the things that really speak to your heart, the things

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that really motivate you because life is lived differently in the space where you actually

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feel like you're contributing significantly.

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Like you just show up differently in that way.

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But more important than discovering the passion is getting on the journey that takes you to

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discover a passion.

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It's one thing, for example, going back to when you're five years old and people ask

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you, what do you want to be when you grow up?

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Well, if you've never left your house, your home, where maybe mom and dad are farmers,

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you don't know that there's anything else you like besides maybe milking cows.

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You don't know yet because you haven't really been exposed to that.

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But as you leave the house and you go around and you fly planes and you are in different

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environments, you're like, I could be interested in that.

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And so passion is born out of exposure.

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You don't always know what you're passionate about until you've been exposed to enough

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things that generate your interest.

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And so that's why discovering a passion is not actually the number one.

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It's not the most important because it takes a while to grow passion.

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It takes a while to grow skill.

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And sometimes you like an area, but you don't have skill yet.

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And the fact that you lack skill in the struggles you have with building the skills may make

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the area not feel so attractive.

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But the moment you acquire the skills that you need, and sometimes there's a sense of,

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okay, well, now I have the skills, I can focus on what I like.

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And so discovering a passion takes time.

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And for some of us, we find the passion early on, we're like, oh, no, no, no, no, I came

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from the very beginning to do research in X, Y, Z. I'm very clear that this is what

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I want to contribute to.

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And that's great.

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But many people don't have that.

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Many people take time to discover, grow, and nurture their passion.

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And I want to say that discovering a passion or working in the area of your passion may

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not be as important as first of all, just growing in general skills.

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And then using those skills, applying those skills to an area of passion.

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And that's why sometimes where you start is not as important as the fact that you do start.

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Where or who you work with may not be as important as the fact that you have someone to work

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with.

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And so gain the skills and the passion will find you or you will find it as you have exposure

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to different environments.

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Okay.

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Finally, number seven is leading the program.

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And so it's like, okay, you have acquired theoretical knowledge.

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You've acquired practical knowledge.

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You've grown in skills.

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You know how to write grants.

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You know how to publish manuscripts.

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Take them all the way through the publication process.

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You know how to work the publication pipeline.

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You know how to write consistently.

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Do all the things that are habits of a successful researcher.

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And I'm going to reference a prior episode where I talk about habits, seven habits of

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a successful researcher.

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You've leveraged all those things and now you're leading.

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Now you're the one saying, this is what we're going to study.

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These are the questions that we're going to answer.

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This is how we're going to answer those questions.

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You get to choose that.

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And it's a really beautiful thing, but it takes time.

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It takes time.

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And sometimes you're leading and you don't even feel like you should be the leader.

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And sometimes people tell you, you should be leading.

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You're like, no, no, I just want to, I just want to stay here in this one space.

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No, don't make me the leader.

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But the reality is you came to contribute.

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You didn't just come to contribute to other people's work.

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You came to contribute as the leader of a body of work.

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That's an important and powerful thing.

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And it takes time to get there.

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And it's important to recognize that it's not easy to make that journey.

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And maybe you're kind of way, way already on the way to that journey.

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Maybe you're leading already.

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It's like thinking about the people around you.

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What do they need as you're mentoring, as you're bringing people up?

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What stage are they in?

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Are they in the stage where they're just gathering general skills?

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Are they in the place where they're discovering their passion and what they really want to

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lead?

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And so it's important to think about what stage are the people you support in or what

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stage are you in?

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I'd love to hear about it.

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Please send me a direct message.

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I am usually a LinkedIn.

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And I would love to hear about your process as you kind of come through in your research

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career, especially for those of you who are clinicians working to lead a research program.

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All right.

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It's been a pleasure talking with you today.

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Again, I'll summarize that we talked about, first of all, hearing the call, verifying

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the call, number two, answering the call, number three, finding the right environment,

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number four, gaining theoretical knowledge, number five, gaining general skills, number

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six, discovering a passion, and number seven, actually doing the leadership.

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And so I would love to hear about your process or I'd love to hear about how this podcast

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has been helpful to you.

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00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,640
And I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.

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00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:25,360
Thank you for listening.

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00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:30,680
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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have a mentor.

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If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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No one else needs to hear it.

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00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,400
So take a minute right now and share it.

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00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:54,880
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:14,920
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.