Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
program.
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you
today.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Today, I'm talking to you about why you may be struggling to find a research mentor.
Again, that title is why you may be struggling to find a research mentor.
And I want to say that, honestly, you may be struggling to find a research mentor at
any point in your career, but usually, when people are struggling to find a research mentor,
they're early on in their career.
So they may be still residents or fellows, and they may be early career faculty, but
it's usually kind of early on in your career when you're really looking for a research
mentor.
And so I want to say that that's the group I'm speaking to today, while also acknowledging
that there are people that may not consider themselves early career who are also looking
for research mentors.
And I'm going to say, I think that some of these things that I'm going to talk about
today are applicable to you, but don't fret if they are not.
If for whatever reason you find a residence and you don't consider yourself early career
faculty, please let me know.
Reach me on LinkedIn.
Or if you don't find residence and you're mid-career faculty, or you don't consider
yourself early career faculty, shoot me a message as well.
Because I want to understand how this may be helpful to anybody who's beyond the group
that I think I'm talking to today.
Okay.
Thank you for indulging me.
So I think one of the reasons this is an important topic, apart from the fact that it was my
personal experience, is that many people come and they complain about not being able to
find a research mentor.
So this is a ubiquitous problem.
And it's happened to enough people such that I feel like it's important for me to help
people understand what some of the issues may be.
Now, I want to say that this is not your problem in the sense that it's not your fault.
It's a systemic issue.
And understanding what the systems are that can sometimes prevent you from finding a mentor
are helpful because it could allow you to become innovative about the strategies you
identify to help you overcome what is a hurdle.
So for me, when I started out, actually, when I was trying to do research as an undergrad,
that wasn't so hard.
There were actually a preponderance of opportunities available where I could go and ask a mentor
if I could work with them in their research program.
And there was the expectation that I would just be there for the summer.
I would be there for the semester.
And that wasn't too difficult.
And that was helpful because in applying to medical school, research is one of those things
that's recommended.
And so not so much a problem when I was in my undergrad, not a problem really when I
was in medical school too.
So in medical school, we had an opportunity to do a year long period of research, actually
about 10 months.
And there was a wealth of faculty members that we could go to.
And depending on our interests, we would interview different people and people were always welcoming
us with open arms.
At least it seemed so that way.
But then I got into my faculty position.
Actually, I'll go back and say even in residency, there seemed to be a little bit more openness
to allowing residents to work in the program and people actively seeking residents to work
in their research program.
But then when I got to become a fellow and a faculty member, it just seemed to be getting
harder and harder and harder.
And so I definitely would say that I struggled to find a research mentor.
And now that I'm a research mentor myself, I have a sense of why that struggle exists
and why it probably is not going to go away anytime soon.
And that's why I'm here to share some of these insights with you.
So let's get started.
The first thing I want to share is that one of the biggest challenges may be that you
don't understand what is required to really be able to find a research mentor.
And what do I mean by that?
You may not understand what investment is needed from the perspective of the faculty
member.
And so I don't know, you may have heard people say, don't ever go to someone and say, will
you be my mentor?
And that may be the kiss of death.
And you will certainly rarely find anyone who will say yes to that question, especially
initially.
Most of the time people recommend that you just kind of get to know them and think of
it as like building relationships rather than looking for a mentor.
And part of that is because being a mentor has a lot of components to it.
And I'm talking very specifically about being a research mentor because if you've been following
me for any length of time, you know that I don't believe in the one mentor.
I believe in networks of mentors.
And I recognize that there is not one one-size-fits-all mentor.
But I am very specifically focused right now on research mentoring.
Because when you're looking for research mentoring, you're seeing I lack a set of skills that
are needed to grow a research program.
And I'm looking to fill those skills.
Now that's what I mean by understanding.
Because sometimes what people are coming to me right now that I'm a research mentor, when
I was going and looking for research mentors, what I was thinking was, I'm looking for a
publication or two.
And you know, I'd love to learn the skills and all of that, but I'm just really looking
for a publication or two.
That's how I was looking at it.
And what I didn't realize is that research mentors, especially those who have research
programs, whether they're thriving research programs or they don't feel like they're thriving,
they're looking for a body of work.
They're creating a body of work.
And their trajectory really spans over time.
They're not just looking for one or two publications.
They're creating a body of work that's going to contribute significantly to the literature.
And their team helps them achieve that.
And so when you come along and you don't recognize that they're building something for the long
haul, hopefully, and you just show up and say, I'm just looking for a paper or two,
to some extent, you're not understanding the bigger enterprise and what's really required
within that mentor's program.
And so that mentor is probably looking for funding, always looking for funding to fund
the team.
That mentor has a body of work that's already been established.
Another body of work that maybe is new and currently being established.
And maybe one body of work that may be being phased out.
And so research mentors are typically long-term thinkers.
And they're thinking about, okay, how do we wrap up projects we have currently?
How do we open up new doors to investigation?
And how do we look ahead to see what are opportunities that we can take advantage of as funders are
making decisions about what they fund?
Those kinds of things.
So there's a lot of thought going to the research mentor's mind.
And if you show up and you don't have an understanding of what the ecosystem looks like, who else
is within the program?
What are their needs within the program?
So you're just coming from the perspective of, this is what I need.
And not really thinking about what do they need in their program?
How do you fit?
How might you fill a gap?
Then you might struggle.
You might meet with a lot of people who say, great, good luck in your search.
And they don't say, I will be your research mentor.
Will you join my program?
Now how do you manage that?
So one way you manage that is by recognizing that they're building something.
And so when you come to the conversation, don't start with, I need, don't start with
you, start with them.
Say tell me about your program and tell me what are your priorities?
What are your program priorities?
What are your big projects that you're working on?
What do you see changing in your research program down the line?
How do you see an early career faculty member fitting into that?
Where are some spaces in which you feel like an early career faculty member may sit?
Do you see that that's a little bit of a different conversation than I'm looking for a mentor,
I need publications, I need?
At the end of the day, you're kind of still saying the same things, but now you're focused
more on the mentor and what they need.
And the reason you want to do that is because it's their program.
And I'm not saying that to say, oh, you have to flex to who they are or what they're doing.
But I'm saying you need to understand if this is the right environment for you, because
you, even though you are looking for a research mentor, you are choosing, not a desperate
person.
You're not just trying to get any research done and just say, Hey, I checked it off my
box, you're not looking for just any experience, you're looking for a place where you can grow
your skills as a researcher and establish yourself so that you can go on to lead your
own research program.
So you are looking for a specific set of skills and a specific environment that can support
you.
Red flags, you send them an email, they don't respond for three weeks, or you set up a meeting
and they cancel three or four times.
You know, and these are the things that you start to look at to make decisions.
You don't say, Oh, well, you know, I desperately need a role.
So let's just ignore all of that.
You ask yourself, is this an environment in which I will thrive?
So number one is not understanding what's required.
And part of that is framing the conversation in terms of the mentor and their needs so
that you understand if this is the right person to contribute to your research development.
And if their lab environment is also the ideal environment to help support you.
Remember, although the conversation is not about you, you want to know about them so
that you can make the decision as to whether it's an environment that will support you
or not.
Okay.
Now, the second thing is not recognizing your skill level.
So I call this one actually minimal research skills.
Now if you're a clinician, if you're an MD or MBBS, one of those clinical focused degrees,
your training was about clinical medicine.
How do you take care of a patient?
How do you do right by the patient?
How do you recognize a sick patient?
How do you prevent disease?
How do you help them manage disease?
Very focused on the clinical aspect of medicine, which is great.
That's exactly what you came to do.
It's a very hard thing to do.
But what you have to recognize is when you now say, well, I'm looking for research mentorship,
what you don't bring is all the skills that would really help you contribute significantly
to their research program.
So in a way you're showing up as like a needy person saying, well, I have no skills and
I want to be a research program and I have no research skills.
And let's say, you know, if you are an MD, you probably do have a little bit of research
training, right?
You maybe did some pipetting as part of somebody's lab when you were in undergrad trying to get
into med school.
You've done a thing or two, you know how to write.
Maybe you've written a manuscript or two.
So I think what I'm saying here is recognizing your skills gap.
What do you have?
What have you done?
Maybe in a former life, you are a lab technician.
You're like, I have a lot of these lab technician skills.
In fact, I've helped on this.
I've done that.
I've done this.
Great.
If you have skills, you want to talk up your skills because otherwise there is the assumption
and usually right that MDs or MD trained individuals are mostly skilled in clinical training.
And yeah, they can understand research to some extent, but they don't have the skills
that can help a program get off the ground.
So for somebody who's looking at you as a potential contributor to their research program,
they're looking to see, well, how many skills do you already come with?
How many am I going to have to train you to do?
Right.
That's very important.
Is there bandwidth to do the training?
Is there support to do the training?
And is there time to do the training?
Are you going to be around long enough to be able to grow from the training and then
begin to contribute meaningfully?
Because every research mentor is looking for meaningful contribution to their research
program.
They are not looking for people to be part of their research program who don't produce
anything, right?
Because it takes time to produce any body of work that's good and that's going to move
the field forward.
And they're looking for people who can contribute to the field, to their work so that they can
contribute to the field.
And if it turns out that you don't have the skills that they need, then what they have
to do is decide if it's worth making that investment to give you the skills so that
finally with the skills, you can now contribute to the research program.
And that's why number three is important, minimal time commitment.
So here you are, wonderful MD that you are.
You've got great clinical training.
You understand the research enterprise, even if you have minimal research skills.
And you're like, yeah, I'd love to be in your research program.
And I have about three months for this project.
You know, that changes the equation a lot.
It's one thing to say, I'm going to commit two to three years to your research program.
And even though I have zero skills, I'm willing to learn, I learn fast, and I will be able
to get on my feet and start contributing as best as I can, as soon as I can.
That's a different conversation when you have a three-year investment, as opposed to when
you have three months.
It's like, well, what can you learn in three months?
And in three months, to what extent can you contribute to the program?
So again, think of it like a baby who is absolutely 100% needy and comes to a new parent family,
right?
And you're like, I'm going to leave you in three years.
You're not going to be able to contribute anything between now and the three-year period.
In essence, you are literally not a contributing member.
Your parents, so to speak, are investing as much as they can.
You're not really bringing any output.
But what you're saying is that I want to be in the research program and I'm looking for
a research manuscript, which is great, but most research manuscripts don't arrive in
three months.
Like, if you can even get a draft together in three months, you'd be doing really well,
right?
Depending on how far the research has already gotten by the time you get to this three-month
period.
But when we factor in submitting to the journal, getting the feedback back, maybe even the
rejection once or twice and going through other journals and then finally getting revisions
that you can act on and then resubmit and then wait to get the feedback, that's already
five, six, seven months.
And you've just been navigating through the publication process.
You haven't even created anything significant.
So do you understand that it takes a long time?
And so if you have minimal time commitment and you're saying to a research mentor, please
invest in me, give me the skills that I need and I have three months for you, you're not
going to get a lot of cash.
You're not going to get a lot of traction with that.
That's what I was looking for, traction.
Because it just is not a very great value proposition.
I'm going to invest all this time in you.
You're not going to be able to invest back in my program and then in three months you
want a paper and then you're out?
No, thank you.
Many research mentors are really looking for commitments greater than a year.
And really I'm thinking about two years.
I've heard people consistently say, I need two years of your commitment.
And it's too a magic number, not necessarily.
It's that it really takes time to build research skills.
And most people are sharp, they're bright, they can learn really quickly.
But you're going to want to see the fruit of your labor turn around to be an investment
in the program and then to have work come out of your investment.
And so I think two years is a fair window.
One year probably would be minimal.
I think one and a half to two years is at least important in terms of actually gaining
skills to be useful and then putting those skills to use.
So minimal time commitment may be one reason why you're struggling to find a research mentor.
Number four is short-term thinking.
And that goes back to the minimal time commitment issue, but it's bigger than that.
It's when you're like, I'm just here for publications.
I just need a grant.
And so I'll be in your program until I get the grant.
It's kind of short-term thinking.
I mean, in general, everybody knows that you're not going to be in one person's research program
forever and ever and ever.
Amen.
You're there to learn and then to move on to something else.
You're there to grow, you're there to expand.
No one should put you in a box and you should not allow yourself to be put in a box as well.
And short-term thinking is just, I'm just here for this product.
And I will say that I've been guilty of that because I didn't understand.
I just wanted to come get what I needed and say goodbye.
But the mentor is looking to see, well, how will my research program benefit?
So what are some ways that the research program can benefit so that you benefit as well, right?
It doesn't have to be win-lose.
It should be win-win.
So here you are and your goal is a grant.
Great.
You should achieve that goal.
But in the process, how will you contribute to the program?
How will you train other people with the skills that you're learning so quickly?
How will you contribute in a way that allows great papers to come out of the lab?
What are you going to do that's also going to help the program succeed while you're getting
your needs met?
So a win-win at the end is you getting your needs met, they getting their needs met as
well.
You don't know what those needs are until you ask.
But many mentees, like children, are very focused on themselves.
This is what I need.
And they're not asking, hey, research mentor, what do you need and how do I fit into that?
And so short-term thinking of just being there for what you want can limit your ability to
find a research mentor who does not see you really contributing meaningfully to their
program.
And for that reason, they decide to maybe go with somebody else.
Okay.
So that was short-term thinking.
Number five is unclear mentoring expectations.
And I really do mean that term unclear.
You're not sure what you want.
Now, remember, I think it's really important that you have more than one mentor because
you've got a lot to learn.
For someone who, and I'm talking to clinicians here, has barely really had much by way of
research experience, you need a lot of research experience and you don't have it and it's
okay, you're going to get it.
But you want to be very clear what you're getting from this mentor and why this mentor
is the person to give you what you need.
What is this mentor doing for you that you cannot get elsewhere?
Really important because you need a lot of things.
If you're a clinician who's just new to the research enterprise, you got to learn to write
grants because it's not something you've done very much.
You got to learn to write manuscripts and maybe you've written a scientific manuscript
or two.
Some people have written a lot more.
Good for you.
But many of us don't have that skill set.
We've written case reports, we've written clinically focused manuscripts, but not research
oriented manuscripts or manuscripts that really converts with the scientific literature.
And so that's the skill that needs to be built.
And then you're looking for skills in identifying funding opportunities or identifying a good
match between your research question or your research project and or your research program
and what the funders want to fund.
Or even the skill of being able to ask a research question.
I mean, that is a skill.
It takes time to be able to really focus it down, to be able to generate hypotheses that
you can test.
That is a skill.
What is this mentor going to do for you?
And what can you get from someone else that this mentor will not necessarily give you?
And so some people come into the mentoring relationship, they have no clarity around
what they actually need.
They're just like, mentor me.
And it's like, mentor you in what?
Well, in research, but in what aspect of research?
And so part of your being savvy is to say, well, what are my gaps?
What are my skills gaps?
What am I going to need from this mentor?
Why this mentor is compared to someone else?
So if you're like, well, you're the only mentor in the division, it's a bad answer.
Wrong answer.
Because if they're the only mentor in the division, guess what?
Everybody and their brother and sister want them to be their mentor.
And so on the good side of that is that, well, they have a lot to choose from.
But on the bad side of that is that, wow, they're very overwhelmed by requests for mentoring.
And so if you are not clear what this person can do for you and why they're the right mentor
compared to a different mentor, then you don't have enough specificity to really get what
you need.
And then you go in there and you're just expecting, it's not clear what you're expecting.
And whatever they give to you, you're not satisfied because you don't have an expectation
that they can actually fill.
But if you're very clear on your expectation for that mentoring experience, like I want
to know how to write grants because you are awesome at writing grants.
Great.
Case settled.
This is very focused on writing grants.
Bring your ideas, help them in different ways, and they help you write grants.
You know that's a very specific focus.
Now, one of the things you want to ask is, is this the best person to help me on my grant
writing?
So this may be the best person to help you with this scientific method.
And maybe you go to a grant writing program at your institution to learn grant writing.
So be clear about what this particular research mentoring experience will give you.
Be very clear about it, what your goal is, so that when you get it, you know that you're
getting it.
You're getting it, you know that as well, and you can help to manage expectations.
Don't be like me where I was just like mentor me, and I was like, I don't know if I'm getting
everything I'm supposed to because I had no clue.
Be clear about what it is you need, and then be clear about what this mentor will do for
you and make sure that you are able to communicate that need and why they're the specific mentor
to do that because it helps them to recognize that they have a very specific role that they
can play in your research development.
And that's very satisfying, and you know this is what they need, this is what I can supply,
it's a great relationship.
Here's the thing, you'll get a lot else beyond just what it is that you're focused on.
Okay, they may just be the research methodologists, but they also write grants, so they've got
that skill.
And along the lines of you've been focused on a certain thing, you'll get other things
as well.
So it's really important for you to be specific, knowing that you're going to get other general
things but making sure that what you really want is what they can provide for you and
helping you communicate that expectation so that they can give it to you.
Okay, number six is that your focus is too narrow.
What do I mean by that?
Okay, so you're a hematologist like me.
You're just looking at your division across the hematologist and you're like, well, no
research mentors here, or oh, there's only one.
And I just want to say that the world is your oyster, and you don't have to look only within
your division.
If you are at an academic medical center, there are many people doing research.
Some are MDs, some are MD-PhDs, some are PhD only, but all of them are potential mentors
for you.
Again, you don't need the one mentor who looks like you, who knows clinical things like you
do.
It's like, what do you need?
And who are the mentors who may be able to be best suited to serve you in that way as
you serve them as well?
And so if your focus is too narrow, where you're just looking at your division and you're
looking across the seven faculty, or maybe you have a bigger division, you have 70 faculty,
and you're like, oh, there's just two people.
I guess I'm stuck with these two.
You're not stuck.
You got a big, big environment in your academic institution.
If your academic institution is bent on scholarship, they're going to be people who are going to
be able to facilitate that scholarship, look around and say, well, what can this person
give me?
What can this person give me?
And realize that what you need, you can get from more than one source.
Don't focus only within your own department or only within your own school.
Think broadly.
Look at NIH Reporter to see what people are publishing on.
What do you want to do for the people who are already doing it?
And where can you find them beyond just your division or your department or your immediate
school?
And I wouldn't stop at just your institution.
I would look beyond the institution to say, who are the people around the country who
are doing this work, who I would love to partner with?
Now, life is always easier when you're in close proximity with somebody who's mentoring
you.
You don't have to be in close proximity to allow mentoring relationships to work.
You can have mentoring relationships across geographic boundaries, across international
boundaries.
You can get what you need from wherever you want as long as you are open-minded and thinking
beyond just the narrow confines of the people who immediately surround you.
So think broadly.
Don't narrow your focus.
Think about every possible person who might be able to support you and think about how
do you open the door to a conversation that doesn't start with, please be my mentor, right?
A conversation that allows you to begin to form a relationship that's going to be beneficial
to both of you in the long term.
Remember, always think, win-win.
Number seven is maybe you finally find the mentor and you have a conversation with them
and they're like, yeah, great, see you later.
Sometimes it's because your interests are divergent and that's okay.
So you've got to recognize that even when you find the greatest of mentors and you feel
like you have a great connection and you feel like they absolutely should be your mentor
and they say no, thank you, it's not personal.
It's not because of you.
It's because there's probably differences that may not be explicit.
Now if you don't know, ask.
Say okay, I think we seem to be a great fit and it sounds like we have a great rapport
and I'm curious to know why you don't think this may make sense for you.
And it may be that it's not the right time for them because it really does take some
intensive mentoring to be able to get an early career person on their feet and up and running
independently.
And it takes time and bandwidth and energy and effort.
And if they don't have that bandwidth, they don't want to make that investment because
then you'll just find yourself sitting on the sidelines wondering where did my mentor
go and feeling abandoned.
So what you want to do is you want to make sure that they actually have time for you
and actually have space for you.
They have a project that you can work on.
And it may be that you're really interested in, let's say you're interested in the diversity
bonus, right?
And that's really what you want to study and they really end up in a basic science lab
and they're only interested in Drosophila.
Now it's a little bit divergent and yes, they could mentor you in grant writing, they could
mentor you in your career, but in the research, you're not aligned.
And so the divergent interests, the lack of alignment sometimes will affect your ability
to have that person be a research mentor.
Okay.
So I said seven things I'm going to just recap.
One, understanding what's required, not being too you focused and not thinking about what
they need.
Two, minimal research skills.
Three, minimal time commitment.
Four, short-term thinking.
Five, unclear mentoring expectations.
Six, narrow focus and seven, divergent interests.
So those are seven reasons why you may be struggling to find a research mentor.
Remember that this is about you, but it's also you finding a space to fit in somebody
else's program, really somebody else's life in some way.
And it's like, how do you frame the conversation so that you're clear where you can fit and
you help them see that value proposition?
And I want to say look far and wide, don't limit yourself.
The sky is no limit even for you as you want to lead a research program.
So I hope that this has been helpful to you.
As always, if you're looking for a coach who can support you as you make the transition
from clinician to scientist, I'd love to be there for you.
Let me know and send me a direct message on LinkedIn and I'd be happy to reach out and
support you.
Okay.
It's been a pleasure to talk with you today.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic
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