1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.

7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,320
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

12
00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,080
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

13
00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:08,360
I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you

14
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,360
today.

15
00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:10,360
Thank you so much for tuning in.

16
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,400
Today I'm talking about the ideal mentor with a poor reputation.

17
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,360
Yep, the ideal mentor with a poor reputation.

18
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,760
What do you do when you're like, this is the mentor for me, but I don't like what

19
00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:22,760
I'm hearing.

20
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,280
And this actually comes from a recent coaching session, and this question came up with one

21
00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:33,360
of our clients who is very interested in potentially pursuing a relationship, but they have heard

22
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,380
a couple of things that are interesting about this mentor.

23
00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:38,240
So what do you do with that?

24
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:44,480
And I want to say that when I think back on my own experiences, I realized that I didn't

25
00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,000
always pay attention to my inner gut feeling like I should have.

26
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,080
I thought, no, let's just be logical about this.

27
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:53,720
Clearly this person's really brilliant.

28
00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:54,720
They succeeded.

29
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,440
They've had a lot of mentees.

30
00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,400
It must just be them.

31
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:08,320
And so I'm here to help you not make the mistakes that I have made and just help you think about

32
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:14,280
how do you strategically enter into such a relationship with your eyes wide open if you

33
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:15,800
should choose to venture forward.

34
00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:20,880
So I'm going to talk about seven reasons, well, seven things you should consider, seven

35
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:26,040
things you should consider when you find the ideal mentor who has a poor reputation.

36
00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,040
Okay.

37
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,680
The first thing you want to know is you want to take everything you hear very seriously.

38
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,720
Now take everything you hear seriously.

39
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,080
I didn't say believe everything you hear, right?

40
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,280
There are always many sides to any story.

41
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,200
So don't believe everything you hear, but take what you hear seriously.

42
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:50,100
Take what you hear seriously, especially if it's a reputation that's been built, right?

43
00:02:50,100 --> 00:02:53,240
It's one thing if one person said, eh, I had a bad experience.

44
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,360
It's another thing if people are like, no, no, no, no, no, this is a consistent thing.

45
00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:03,520
And you now have to do due diligence to understand what are the issues at play.

46
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,560
So you're taking it seriously, allows you to say, let me investigate.

47
00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,480
Let me make sure I fully understand what is going on.

48
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:17,160
What you don't want to do is dismiss it, but you don't want to do is be so desperate that

49
00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,680
you're like, well, I can't find another mentor and this is absolutely the best and most important

50
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,280
mentor and this person is the ideal mentor and I don't care.

51
00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,280
I'm just going to go forward.

52
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,040
You don't want to do that.

53
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:33,360
First of all, because you're not desperate.

54
00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:37,820
There are other mentors and even if this one is the ideal mentor, there will always be

55
00:03:37,820 --> 00:03:39,420
other mentors.

56
00:03:39,420 --> 00:03:45,880
And so what you want to do is just take a deep breath, take your time and do your due

57
00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:47,040
diligence.

58
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:52,120
So the first thing you want to do is take what you've heard seriously.

59
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,080
That's number one.

60
00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,240
Number two is ask questions.

61
00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,200
Now remember I said number one, that you don't have to believe everything you hear, but you

62
00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,120
don't want to take it seriously enough to start asking questions.

63
00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,600
And so this is important.

64
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:05,600
You're doing your due diligence.

65
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:10,480
And part of that is going and saying, hey, help me understand this mentor's specific

66
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:11,480
reputation.

67
00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,640
Help me understand what's happening.

68
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:19,140
It is helpful to ask people firsthand who had an experience of this mentor.

69
00:04:19,140 --> 00:04:25,680
Now I will tell you that if you're in academia, many people will not tell you about their

70
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,240
experience because they're afraid.

71
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,600
They're afraid of retaliation.

72
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,160
They're afraid that it will come back to bite them.

73
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,880
They're afraid that they might come across as ungrateful.

74
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,560
And so if you're going to uncover the truth, you're going to want to be strategic about

75
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:39,560
it.

76
00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:44,240
Number one, you're going to want to find somebody who actually has had the experience that is

77
00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,480
being talked about, the actual concerning experience.

78
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:53,280
But you also want to create an atmosphere of safety and confidentiality so that they

79
00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,160
can share with you.

80
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,880
Because the worst thing is to have someone show up and say, oh yeah, poor reputation.

81
00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,280
I would think twice if I were you.

82
00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:03,280
But that doesn't tell you anything.

83
00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:04,280
It doesn't tell you what happened.

84
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:06,880
It doesn't tell you what the person did.

85
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:12,160
But nobody owes you any explanation for why the relationship with a mentor turned sour

86
00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:13,800
or didn't go as it should have.

87
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:15,320
They don't owe you.

88
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,120
You're the one who's looking for information.

89
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,920
You're the one who's making a decision that impacts upon your career or your future.

90
00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,600
You're going to be the one to create the kind of environment that allows people to speak

91
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,080
freely and truthfully.

92
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:29,400
How might you do that?

93
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:36,400
Well, for one, you want to be sincere and you want to definitely make sure that they

94
00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,000
understand that whatever they tell you is going to be held in confidence.

95
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,680
And you want to help them understand why you need the information.

96
00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:48,800
I'm really considering entering into a mentoring relationship with this person or being a mentee

97
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,760
of this person because of XYZ.

98
00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,560
And I think it's important to my career in this way.

99
00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,600
For this reason, I really want to understand some of the things that I've been hearing

100
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,120
and you've had a personal experience.

101
00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,000
That's why I want to really get a sense of your experience so that I can make a better

102
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,240
informed decision about this relationship.

103
00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,200
And honestly, anybody who's been in a tight spot before with anybody, they don't want

104
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,360
anybody else to end up in the same situation.

105
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,000
And so they are likely to now share with you because they want to help you make an informed

106
00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:22,000
decision.

107
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,080
This is the point at which people will say, look, I had to take my word for it.

108
00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,520
Maybe this was just my experience, but you want to take them seriously.

109
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,920
And you want to ask the right questions.

110
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,240
So you're not just asking about their experience.

111
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:40,520
You're asking about, well, what may have been the trigger?

112
00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,440
What was the thing that may have prompted it?

113
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:44,880
What are some patterns that they've noticed?

114
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,240
What are some ways in which they wish they had been able to deal with it?

115
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,640
What were some support structures that they leaned on?

116
00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,520
You want to really ask questions.

117
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,460
Don't just gloss over anything.

118
00:06:55,460 --> 00:06:58,440
You want to really get to the bottom of it because ultimately you're going to make a

119
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,440
decision.

120
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,400
Quality information allows you to make a high quality decision.

121
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,720
So you want to understand exactly what's happening so you can make a quality decision.

122
00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:10,720
Okay.

123
00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:11,800
That's number two.

124
00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,640
Ask questions about others' experiences.

125
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:19,400
Number three, when you go to talk to someone, you want to treat them with respect.

126
00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:20,400
What do I mean?

127
00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,080
You're a respectful person.

128
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:28,280
But what I mean is, sometimes you start listening to someone's story and maybe, let's use an

129
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:33,200
example, maybe their English is not great and you're like, oh yeah, must be your English.

130
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,440
Yeah, of course this person was mean to you.

131
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,240
You don't even not speak English.

132
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:38,240
That's just an example, right?

133
00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,640
I'm not saying anybody's English is bad, but you dismiss the person or maybe something

134
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:49,680
else like, okay, well, this person may have shared with you that, well, this mentor was

135
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,840
always getting on my case about finishing manuscripts on time.

136
00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:54,880
And you're like, oh, is that it?

137
00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:00,320
Well, if you weren't so lazy, he wouldn't probably have gotten on your case like that.

138
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,880
And then you dismiss what the person is telling you.

139
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:03,880
You don't want to do that.

140
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:08,920
Don't be that person who dismisses the informant because you're like, oh, victim blaming or

141
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:09,920
anything like that.

142
00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,920
I'm not saying the victim is correct or the person is a victim.

143
00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:18,880
I'm not even saying they're a victim, but don't say, oh, that was a you problem.

144
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,720
Or it's not likely to happen to me because guess what?

145
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:27,160
If it happened to someone, it's likely to happen again.

146
00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,480
In this area, lightning can strike twice.

147
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,520
So you want to respect the person who's giving you the information.

148
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,680
Don't dismiss any of their concerns.

149
00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:41,440
Even if you feel like, well, if they had just done better, then maybe the mentor wouldn't

150
00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,320
have acted the way they acted.

151
00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,280
Remember this is a reputation.

152
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,600
That means it's likely happened to more than one person you want to take your informant

153
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:50,800
seriously.

154
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:56,040
And so treat them with respect when they share their story and they'll be more likely to

155
00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:57,080
share more with you.

156
00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,320
They may refer you to other people to talk with, but don't dismiss their story.

157
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:02,320
Don't say it was just you.

158
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:03,720
I'm going to be fine.

159
00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,760
You want to treat them with respect and give them the benefit of the doubt.

160
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:09,760
Okay.

161
00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,200
Now you've gotten all this information.

162
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,680
Number four is for you to clarify your own goals.

163
00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:17,320
Why is this the ideal mentor for you?

164
00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,360
What does this mentor do for you that you don't already have?

165
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,440
And it's a really important question to ask because sometimes in academia we have this

166
00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,520
scarcity mentality where we're like, well, they could only be one mentor for me because

167
00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,320
this is the person who wrote the textbook.

168
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,040
Here's the thing about the guy who wrote the textbook or the woman who wrote the textbook.

169
00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,680
In general, by the time they're writing textbooks, they've become pretty busy.

170
00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:45,080
And if you're an early career faculty member or you're a fellow who's barely done any research,

171
00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,080
maybe they're not the right primary mentor for you.

172
00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,460
And so the question is, well, what do you need to get?

173
00:09:51,460 --> 00:09:54,800
If you're like, oh, I've never done research and this person's like the best, so I want

174
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,280
to learn from the best.

175
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,560
I'm not saying that's not a bad thing.

176
00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:03,720
I'm just saying that you really probably want to look for someone who's going to give you

177
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,640
the time of day, who's really going to invest in you, spend time with you, go through your

178
00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,360
manuscripts line by line with you.

179
00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,720
The person has written a couple of textbooks and they probably have less time.

180
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:19,820
Now, they may have an ecosystem of senior graduate students or early career faculty

181
00:10:19,820 --> 00:10:22,560
who can help mentor you.

182
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:23,560
And that's fine.

183
00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:27,880
You want to know that they're not going to have anything to do with you or that they're

184
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:30,200
going to be hands on in your business all the time.

185
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:31,440
You want to know.

186
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,160
So you want to clarify for yourself, what do I need?

187
00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,840
And can this mentor deliver that for me?

188
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,860
If you're early on, you're starting out in research, you don't have much experience,

189
00:10:41,860 --> 00:10:44,200
you need a mentor who's going to hold your hand.

190
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:45,200
You do.

191
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,560
You need a mentor who's going to encourage you, who's going to walk you through imposter

192
00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:52,580
syndrome, who's not going to see your first draft and lose it.

193
00:10:52,580 --> 00:10:55,000
You do want that.

194
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,680
And if that's what you need, is this the right mentor for you?

195
00:10:58,680 --> 00:11:01,080
So you want to be sure what are your goals.

196
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,760
But if all you're looking for is maybe sponsorship and you just want the person to know you enough

197
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,960
to talk you up at their next meeting, great.

198
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,120
You know that's what you need.

199
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,560
So you can engage cautiously.

200
00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:17,280
Or maybe you know that, no, in this field, this person's name is so important and needs

201
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,720
to be on every paper I write.

202
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:20,720
Okay.

203
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,840
If all you need is the name on a paper, does that person need to be your mentor?

204
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,700
So do you understand why clarifying your goal helps you?

205
00:11:28,700 --> 00:11:34,600
If this person is well known for berating women, for example, and unfortunately in academia,

206
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,640
that behavior can be tolerated if someone's successful enough.

207
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:40,000
At least I've seen it happen.

208
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,760
Of course, not at my institution and probably not at yours.

209
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,800
But there's some people who are excellent in their work, not great mentors, and they

210
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,000
don't necessarily treat people well.

211
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,600
And so if you find out that maybe this is a mentor who berates women often and you're

212
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:59,640
a woman, then you can ask yourself, well, if all I need is their name on a paper, then

213
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,320
there's no need for me to do the weekly meetings with them where I may be at risk for this

214
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:04,320
berating behavior.

215
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:05,840
That's what I'm hearing about.

216
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,440
Why don't I just meet with this person when the paper is done and ready to be sent out?

217
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,140
And I'm like, hey, you look like the kind of guy who would give me great input.

218
00:12:15,140 --> 00:12:16,140
Would you like to be a co-author?

219
00:12:16,140 --> 00:12:19,080
Would it be fine if we can know that kind of thing?

220
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,240
So you just want to be clear what you're getting from the person so that you can know whether

221
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,320
you need to enter into a full research mentoring relationship with them, whether they can just

222
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:29,160
be a career advisor.

223
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:30,240
You want to know.

224
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:36,400
You want to understand your goals so that you can align your goals in the relationship.

225
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:41,000
Now if you decide that, okay, I've clarified my goals.

226
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,320
This is certainly the mentor for me.

227
00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:44,720
This is absolutely the right person.

228
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:50,080
Then you want to do number five, observe their interactions with others.

229
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,160
Now this is so important.

230
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,760
And I think a lot of people don't do this.

231
00:12:54,760 --> 00:13:00,280
They say, well, other people's experiences don't matter.

232
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,280
I'm different.

233
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,520
I'm the unicorn.

234
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,320
There's no way this thing that happened to them, they yelled at you.

235
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:12,840
Yeah, that's because you are such a scaredy cat.

236
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:18,800
You want to just observe and just see, okay, okay.

237
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,820
And the way this person talks with others, how are they behaving?

238
00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:26,120
You want to find them when they're stressed and you want to know how are they behaving.

239
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:31,040
You want to find them when they're like, you know, in the challenging times is when you

240
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,280
want to really observe someone.

241
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:36,240
So that means if you're going to observe someone, you've got to give it enough time to really

242
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:42,160
observe them at different, you know, in different modes so that you know you've seen them when

243
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:43,160
they're stressed.

244
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,180
You know, you've seen them when they're angry, when they're hungry, when they've been frustrated.

245
00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:50,320
You want to see them as much as possible in their interactions with others so that you

246
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:55,640
can judge firsthand for yourself what this behavior looks like, right?

247
00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:00,480
So that's really important for you so that you can judge what the behavior looks like,

248
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:01,480
okay?

249
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,680
So observe their interactions with others.

250
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:05,440
Make sure you have a clear picture.

251
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,560
So don't just say, I'm just going to observe their interactions with men.

252
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:11,040
It's like, no, no, no, this is a woman berating problem.

253
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,720
You're going to observe their interactions with women too.

254
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,000
So you want to observe their interactions with everybody.

255
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,680
You also want to, even if they're like their problem is berating women, you want to observe

256
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,080
their interactions with men.

257
00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,320
Well, if they treat women this way, how do they treat the men?

258
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,120
And maybe you'll uncover there that, you know, that's just how they treat everybody, which

259
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,140
is not a good thing, but still may be helpful to know.

260
00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:34,400
Or you might find out that, oh, I get it.

261
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,400
I get it.

262
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,120
It's just, men are treated differently.

263
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:39,120
Got it.

264
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:40,520
So you want to observe.

265
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,680
And there is, I mean, you know, he's being deceived by your eyes because maybe you'll

266
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,800
observe and the person will be beautiful and kind to everyone in public, but it's really

267
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,320
in the dark secret places or in the quiet of their office that they unleash their, you

268
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:56,080
know, Frankenstein.

269
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:57,480
It's possible.

270
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,600
So that's why you want to observe in as many settings as possible.

271
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,600
Okay.

272
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,440
Especially with other witnesses so that you're not by yourself with this person.

273
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:07,440
Okay.

274
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,440
So observe their interactions with others.

275
00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:10,440
Okay.

276
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:11,560
You've observed their interactions.

277
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,040
You've asked questions.

278
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,720
You're clear about your goals.

279
00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:20,520
You're now like, okay, let's say to your mentor, I'm going to ask this person to be my mentor.

280
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:21,520
It's like, okay.

281
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:27,040
If you're going to go in, let's clarify the rules of engagement.

282
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,200
What do I mean by that?

283
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:29,200
Okay.

284
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,160
So you've heard that this person, especially when they're in a room alone with you may

285
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,200
start to get to yelling, right?

286
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:41,080
So you want to be clear about, well, I know what circumstances, are we going to be alone

287
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,940
together in a room such that you feel comfortable yelling, right?

288
00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:48,920
Maybe you just have group coaching, a group mentoring meetings where you're like, okay,

289
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,560
me and the postdoc will go into the meetings together.

290
00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,960
So you always have a witness and it makes it less likely that this is going to be berating

291
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,460
happening in front of someone else, right?

292
00:15:57,460 --> 00:16:00,960
So you want to be very clear about how you're going to engage with this person.

293
00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,440
Maybe you found this person who looks, you know, is a little bit handsy.

294
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:10,800
You're like, okay, how do I make sure that I maintain sufficient distance so that hands

295
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:11,800
don't touch me?

296
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:12,800
You know what I mean?

297
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,400
And so I'm not condoning any behavior as good.

298
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,320
I'm not condoning bad behavior.

299
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,560
What I am saying is that if you decide that even after you've heard about someone's poor

300
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,560
reputation that you're in go forward, you just want to understand your stopping rules.

301
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:27,760
And that's helpful.

302
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,400
If this person does this, then I will.

303
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,440
If this person does this, then I will.

304
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,660
You also want to be clear about like, how do you engage so that you are not put in a

305
00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:41,000
compromising situation that allows you to experience whatever the bad reputation thing

306
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,000
is, right?

307
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,320
So clarify the rules of engagement primarily for yourself.

308
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,120
It's not so much for the other person because they are who they are.

309
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,240
And so if they show up and they start berating you, you don't get to say, oh, wow, they're

310
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,240
berating me.

311
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,240
I'm upset.

312
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:55,880
Yeah, no, somebody told you.

313
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,720
And don't get me wrong.

314
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,760
I'm not saying that people should not seek the help they need.

315
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:02,600
Please absolutely do that.

316
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:08,680
But if you're entering into a mentoring relationship with someone who you know expresses specific

317
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,720
poor behavior and you knowingly enter into it, you've chosen that.

318
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,840
Just want to be clear that you're making a choice here.

319
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,600
And what you want to do is say, well, if this happens, then I will.

320
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,440
You want to be clear.

321
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,680
You want to be clear exactly what the stopping rules are.

322
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,040
And if possible, have accountability with that.

323
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,440
Hey, friend of mine, I'm starting this relationship with a mentor.

324
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:39,400
Yes, it is a relationship because it's really about human relationships, right?

325
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,520
I'm starting this relationship with a mentor and I've heard that this mentor can start

326
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:49,720
to yell, would you hold me accountable to make sure that if any of these happen, this

327
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,480
is exactly what I'll do, right?

328
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,200
I'm going to let the paper go and I'm going to go to another mentor, right?

329
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,200
So clarify the rules of engagement before you begin.

330
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,280
And number seven is going with your eyes wide open, going with your eyes wide open.

331
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,360
Now, this is not the time to have rose colored glasses and say, oh, this is the best professor

332
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,920
in the world and everybody else must be crazy.

333
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,200
Don't do that.

334
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:12,720
You want to go in with your eyes wide open.

335
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:20,640
You want to say, hmm, this person has been said to have a bad reputation in X.

336
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:26,400
You want to make sure that you have the opportunity to witness them in that way so that you know

337
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,660
what to do, right?

338
00:18:27,660 --> 00:18:30,240
So you want to make sure that you're not blindsided.

339
00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,640
You go in with your eyes wide open, none of those rose colored glasses.

340
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:40,600
The world is rose and the people who see it as yellow or wrong, don't be that person.

341
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,080
But you want to be very clear.

342
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:51,160
So sometimes accountability helps you be clear because you'll say, hey, can you ask me if

343
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,080
I look sad, ask me about my relationship with a mentor or whatever it is.

344
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,160
But anyway, at the end of the day, if you decide you're going to move forward to the

345
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,760
mentor who doesn't have a great reputation, you want to make sure that you have eyes in

346
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,760
the back of your head.

347
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,280
Okay, no eyes in the back of your head.

348
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:09,440
Make sure your eyes are wide open.

349
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:14,240
All right, I've shared seven things to consider if you have an ideal mentor before you with

350
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:15,240
a bad reputation.

351
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,880
Number one, take what you've heard very seriously.

352
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,960
Number two, ask questions about others' experiences.

353
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:21,960
Get informed.

354
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,280
Number three, when informers give you information, treat them with respect.

355
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,040
Treat them with respect.

356
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,020
Number four, clarify what your goals are and whether this mentor actually is the mentor

357
00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:35,240
you need or whether you need a different kind of mentor and you only need this mentor's

358
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:36,920
name.

359
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:38,580
Observe their interactions with others.

360
00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:43,740
You want to make sure that you get to experience them in the full spectrum of when they could

361
00:19:43,740 --> 00:19:45,120
be upset.

362
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,240
And then you want to clarify the rules of engagement.

363
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,520
You want to go in with your eyes wide open.

364
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,520
All right.

365
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,600
So that's been a pleasure talking with you today.

366
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,600
Thank you again for listening.

367
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,640
And remember, if you're looking for a coach, I'm happy to be your coach.

368
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,560
Send me a DM on Instagram or on LinkedIn.

369
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,080
LinkedIn is a better place to find me and I'd be happy to connect with you.

370
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,080
All right.

371
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:07,800
It's been a pleasure talking with you today.

372
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:15,320
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher podcast.

373
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:20,280
Have a great day.

374
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,600
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast where academic

375
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:31,080
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

376
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:32,400
have a mentor.

377
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:38,520
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

378
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,280
Someone else needs to hear it.

379
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,320
So take a minute right now and share it.

380
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,760
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

381
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:55,720
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.