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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Well hello everyone, welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and I am super excited to be talking with you today.

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Thank you so much for tuning in.

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Today I am bringing you an episode from a recent coaching conversation that I had with

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my clients, excited to share this one with you, and enjoy listening.

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Welcome and thank you for being here today, and for everyone who's catching the replay.

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Hello.

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So today I'm talking about looking for academic jobs.

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I'm talking about looking for academic jobs and maybe...

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I'm back.

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Yes, welcome back.

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All right, so I'm talking about looking for academic jobs, and maybe it's not so much

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looking for academic jobs as looking for jobs overall.

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Many of us will kind of want to look for just academic jobs, but I do want to talk about

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the breadth and the depth of what is available as far as the jobs want.

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Alison, welcome.

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I'm talking about looking for jobs.

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Okay.

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So I will say that when I started looking for jobs, I had my big decision.

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I definitely want to stay in academics, and to be honest, the academic decision was made

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for me the moment I started medical school.

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I just knew that the medical school environment was the environment I wanted to stay in, and

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so I knew I was going to do very much an academic job.

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But I think the next big decision, other than academics, was that I wanted...

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We were pretty particular about location, because at the time we had one child who was

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maybe one and a half years old, and we realized that we just wanted to be supported as much

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as we could.

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And so we were either going to stay where we were at the time in Chicago, where we already

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had a community, or we were going to move to North Carolina, which is where we had family,

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and we had kind of like a ready-made community.

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So we were pretty big on where we were going to stay or we were going to move to.

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And then I wanted to do research, and I knew that I was staying in academics so I could

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do research.

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That was like number three, actually.

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It probably was more number one, because it was my driving force.

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I assumed that academia meant a research job.

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That's what I assumed.

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And so I was surprised when I started looking for jobs, and what people were offering me

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was pretty much a full-time clinical, wow, you've got a lot of patients, and you're pretty

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much just going to see patients all the time, jobs.

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And I was so surprised, because most of my mentors who at the time, they're in their

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70s, one of them in his 80s, was very much like, you have to make sure you accept a 75%

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protected time job.

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All of that, and that's what I was looking for, but nobody was offering it to me, which

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is interesting.

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Anyway, so I ultimately selected a job that didn't necessarily give me the protected time

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I wanted, but had the promise of protected time.

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And I didn't realize that was a fallacy when I first started, the whole idea that you're

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going to come from clinical training, and you're going to be able to accept a research

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job in academia.

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And I'll talk about that in just a little bit.

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But so I ended up actually accepting the job I didn't want.

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And I think at the time, I thought when they were offering me 20% protected time, and that

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was truly protected time, 20% time in an 80% clinical role is really just administrative

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time, because everybody needs administrative time, and administrative time to catch up

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on notes, make phone calls, all of that, that's not protected time.

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I didn't recognize that.

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I took the job I didn't want.

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Anyway, so I was seeing patients five days a week, and then I got pregnant with my second

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child.

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And it was just rough.

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It was so rough, because I'm the kind of person who really loves to sit in corners and think,

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I don't mind seeing people talking to them as long as I can go back to a place to rest

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and recover.

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And I was doing a job where I was doing aphoresis specifically, which I think that our job in

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aphoresis is to say no as much as possible, unless the other person can figure out a way

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to convince you to say yes.

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So it's very, it was just, it was kind of job that at the end of the day, I always wanted

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to recover from.

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And there really wasn't a space for recovering.

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I was a miserable person.

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And then when it came to negotiating my first job and negotiating salary, I had no frame

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of reference for what my salary should be.

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I accepted whatever it is that they gave me as the anchor.

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And I mean, I negotiated up because people always said women don't negotiate.

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I did negotiate, but I think I wasn't prepared for the fact that it was such a low ball offer.

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My negotiation was pretty silly.

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Anyway, I know better now.

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So here I am to share some thoughts with you about what you should be thinking about as

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you're looking for jobs.

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Okay.

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I do think the most important thing about looking for jobs is always start with what

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you want.

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Start with what you want.

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Many times I hear people looking for jobs and they'll say, oh, we'll just see what's

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available.

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We'll just see what's available.

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And I want to say at the end of the day, the truth is you are not necessarily, I mean,

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you're not the one offering yourself a job.

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So yes, you are going to shape what's available to yourself, but you can't start with what's

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available.

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You have to start with what you want so that you can understand the gap between what you

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want and what you're being offered.

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And that's important because to be honest, most of us, for example, the job I have today

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looks nothing like the job I started with.

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And I'm at the same institution, but knowing what you want allows you to continue to shape

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and shape and shape until you're like, yep, this is the job I want.

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Right.

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And just as you change, your needs and your wants will change as well.

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But the most important place, number one, like without question, is start with what

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you want.

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Don't say, oh, we'll just see what's available.

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Start with what you want.

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And the reason it's important to start with what you want is because if you are not happy

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in your job, I mean, it's just, it's a problem.

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You spend a lot of time working.

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You spend a lot of time with your colleagues.

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And if you don't have a job that you want, it'll be miserable.

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And there is no, in medicine, I think we've been in our training where we spend a lot

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of time being miserable and there's no need to continue to perpetuate the misery.

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And at some point you do need to stop.

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And I think training is a good time to stop being miserable, to say, you know what, I'm

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not just here for the glory of this institution and its beautiful name.

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I'm here because of what I want to build.

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And so I think the harder thing for us to do is to be very clear on what you want.

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Because to be honest, in our training, we've never thought about what we want.

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We're always, for the most part, we're big on like, well, okay, well, I need internal

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medicine training.

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This is one of the institutions that does it really well.

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Okay, let's go here.

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And a lot of what we wanted is driven by what the institution has available.

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And we have the sense that the institution makes us because it's, you know, the institution

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has a name.

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At the end of the day, you are the one who makes the institution the institution and

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you're the one bringing your skills and expertise to the institution.

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The institution doesn't make you.

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You make the institution.

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And so you are the gift to the institution.

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It's important to know that.

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So what does it take to know what you want?

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It takes thinking about it and talking to people and thinking about what is important

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to me.

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What are the things that I like about my job or I like about medicine?

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What are the things I hate?

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And how can I minimize the things I hate so I can maximize the things I like?

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I think all along I said I wanted to do research.

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And what I realize now is that I'm not sure it was necessarily research that was my goal.

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As much as I really like the idea of academia for being able to really think clearly and

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think long and deeply about things.

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I love to think and I love to teach.

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Research has those opportunities.

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And so research makes sense to me.

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And even now research makes sense to me in a way that it didn't when I first started.

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But it's important to know who you are.

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I'm the kind of person.

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I'm an introvert too.

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I love to be around people.

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I think people think I'm mostly extroverted.

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But I need times to recover.

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And the whole idea of just being on the run every day without fail is just very hard for

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me.

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There needs to be space for me to recover.

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So knowing yourself is important.

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But number one is to start with what you want.

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And that really starts with understanding who you are and how you want to live your

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life.

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It's not even so much how you want to practice, what patients you want to see.

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It's just who do you want to be?

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How do you want to feel at the end of the day?

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Because all the rest of the stuff is negotiable.

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You can decide I want to see only patients with lymphoma.

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You can decide I only want to do MDS.

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And ultimately you can shape your clinic experience.

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You can shape your faculty experience.

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And if you're in an academic medical center, there's a whole range of jobs you can do.

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And your job is going to be changing over time.

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So first of all, start with what you want.

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That's number one.

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Number two, think about location.

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Okay, so for many of us in our medical training, we just went everywhere.

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Wherever it was like, oh, Duke is the best.

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I'm going there.

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That's where you went.

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I do think that the more seasoned you get, I think it becomes important that you are

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surrounded by communities that support you.

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It's kind of like if you played basketball at the high school level and it was hard at

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high school, then you go to the big leagues.

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You know, and that's when you start your faculty positions, like the big leagues where people

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don't, they're not there to cheer you on.

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Some people are there to like destroy you for whatever reason, right?

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I mean, there are people who just for whatever reason, they don't want you to succeed.

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Think of it as a ball game.

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There's the side that's cheering for your team and the side that's not cheering.

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You're not playing on home territory.

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And people have different reasons or different ideas about who they think should be successful.

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Some people are going to be downright evil to you.

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They're just going to be.

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And it's not even a thing to be sad about.

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It's just to be like, oh, okay.

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I've identified you as one of those people who's going to be evil to me.

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Thank you so much for showing yourself.

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And so to be able to play at the level, you really need to be surrounded by a community

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of supporters who believes in you no matter what.

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You can build that for yourself wherever you go.

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Absolutely can't, but you do need to be intentional about it.

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And so you need to think about location.

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Where are there going to be people who love me, who support me, who encourage me, where

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I can go and meet my people?

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Because when you're at work, you're on.

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I mean, some people are in environments where it's totally nurturing, totally supportive.

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I want to say most people are not.

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If you come into any environment and you have any idea that's different from the status

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quo, either you want to do research that nobody else is doing, or you feel like things in

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medicine are not equitable and need to change, anything at all you think about that deviates

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from the status quo, you will find that you will make enemies very quickly.

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Because there are people whose lives depend on nothing changing, everything staying the

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same.

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So everywhere you go, people will say, well, you want change.

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We want everything to be different.

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And in reality, people don't want change because change means they have to change.

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Nobody wants change.

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They lie to you if they say they don't, they want change.

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Most people don't because it really takes a lot of work in terms of personal development

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to be someone who embraces change.

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And so to be honest, if you want anything at all in medicine to be different, and I

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believe that most of us do, you will find that there will be opposition.

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And so it's okay to have opposition.

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Many of us already know what that feels like, but you can survive better, you can do better

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knowing that you have a community.

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Now do you have to have the community in that geographic location?

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Not necessarily.

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Now, especially post COVID, many of us have virtual communities and we can build those

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virtual communities if we don't have them.

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But I want to say that one of the biggest threats to mental and emotional health is

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isolation.

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I want to say that again, one of the biggest threats to mental and emotional health is

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isolation.

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And so what you want to make sure is that you're not going to be isolated.

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Whatever you need to do, I want you to think about that as you look for jobs.

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And it's so important because honestly, I mean, there are going to be times where people

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are going to bait you because they want you to get mad.

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They want you to self-destruct.

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They're going to trip you up intentionally so that you can fall.

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And it's different.

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It's different from the supportive communities you came from in training and residency and

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med school.

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And you want to know that you can find people who will encourage you and support you as

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you navigate that.

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You are more than capable, absolutely more than capable, but you want to be supported

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as you navigate that.

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So number two, number two is really think about location and not so much geographic

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location though I do mean that too, but really communities that are going to nurture you

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so that you can continue to thrive.

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All right.

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Number three is the job.

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Job is not number one or two, but number three is the job.

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Here's the truth.

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Most of the jobs that you first of all find are not going to be exactly what you want.

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What you're going to do is shape them over time to be the kind of job you want.

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So what you're really looking for is you're looking for the seed of goodness, right, in

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the job that you're going for.

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You're not necessarily looking for the perfect job.

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You may not find the perfect job though rarely you could, but what you're looking for is

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is there opportunity to change, shift, adapt?

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Is there opportunity to move things a little bit?

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And then, and you'll have a sense of that.

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Who's your division chief or your division director?

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How open are they?

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You'll get a sense of just the community, the vibes of the place that you're in as you

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share the ideas that you have.

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So number three really is the job, but also seeing to what extent is that job movable

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rather than being set in stone?

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That's number three.

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As part of number three, what you want to do is you want to go find their metrics for

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promotion.

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Now, I think institutions are becoming more clear about what promotion metrics are, but

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for the most part you have to go find it and say, okay, here are the metrics for promotion.

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Now some people are like, I don't even care about promotion.

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I just want to say that if you're in an academic medical center, you do need to care about

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promotion.

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You may decide I don't want to be promoted, but you do need to know exactly what it takes

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to be promoted.

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Whether you choose to do it or not, it's fine, but you do need to know so that you can actively

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say don't even want to do that even though I know it's necessary for promotion.

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You want to know what I think the challenge is that people say I don't care and they don't

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know.

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And then when they finally are like, wait a minute, I do care.

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Then it's like, oh, now I'm just starting to figure it out.

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The reason you want to know upfront before you even accept the job offer is you want

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to know what they value.

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Here's the challenge that happens for a lot of physicians.

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Many times people, even in academia, are growing, growing more towards just full-time clinical

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work for academic physicians.

295
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So it's like you don't get to pay a private practice, but you're working like a private

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practice doc.

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It's becoming increasingly common.

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However, as much as they put you to work in clinical full-time, then they also are grading

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00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,140
you on the metrics of academia.

300
00:15:57,140 --> 00:16:02,120
So it's like, oh, your publication record, your reputation, which is like you have no

301
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,120
reputation unless you're publishing or giving talks.

302
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,240
They grade you on research and you may not necessarily be the one leading research, but

303
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,560
are you part of collaborative research teams?

304
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:12,560
Do you do team science?

305
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:13,840
That kind of thing.

306
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:20,820
So if they are grading you based on academic work, but you have no space in your schedule

307
00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:25,680
for said academic work, they are setting you up to be not promotable.

308
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That's really important.

309
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,840
Now, does that mean, oh, there you go.

310
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,080
You only give me clinical work.

311
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,680
I have no space to be promotable.

312
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:33,680
I'm not coming to this job.

313
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:34,680
It doesn't mean that.

314
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:39,040
But it does mean you get to say, because the ball is in your court when you're negotiating

315
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:43,800
your job, you'll get to say, hey, here I see you put me in clinic for days a week.

316
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:44,800
Okay.

317
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,040
I can manage that, I think.

318
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,000
But I'm also seeing here that you need me to have published 10 manuscripts to be able

319
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,960
to move from assistant to associate.

320
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,040
Where is the time and effort for this piece?

321
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,120
That's just an important question to ask.

322
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,200
So people can really start to say, can they be honest with you?

323
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:03,640
Then you say, well, you know what?

324
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,360
Actually, we don't want clinicians to be promoted.

325
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:08,960
Then you know, you're going to be like, okay, maybe this is not the space for me.

326
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,160
Or you can say, yeah, yeah, yeah, the money is good.

327
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,320
I don't care about that.

328
00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:13,720
But you get to choose.

329
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,720
And so it's important to get the metrics for promotion, see what they value.

330
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,400
And every institution has different tracks for promotion now, I think.

331
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,320
There's tenure track, there's non-tenure track.

332
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,680
But no matter the track, reputation still matters.

333
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:30,960
Scholarly productivity still matters.

334
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,440
And you want to make sure that if those things are valued, because they put them in the promotion

335
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:42,360
and tenure materials, that you also have the opportunity within your job description to

336
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:43,360
do them.

337
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:46,080
And if you don't ask the question, why?

338
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:47,080
Okay.

339
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,040
So that's really about the job and the environment for the job.

340
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:52,440
That's number three.

341
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,360
Number four, okay, you got to think about money.

342
00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,280
You absolutely need to think about your salary.

343
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,080
One of the things that physicians don't do well is think about money.

344
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,000
Because to be honest, in our training, I mean, medical school, you're just looking for how

345
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,120
do I pay my medical school debt, right?

346
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,420
Many people take out loans, not everybody.

347
00:18:09,420 --> 00:18:10,420
Most of us take out loans.

348
00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:12,520
So we just always think about giving, giving, giving, right?

349
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:13,720
We're applying for medical schools.

350
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:15,480
In the past, we fly all over the country.

351
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,800
We're spending our own money trying to get into medical school.

352
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:19,800
You get to residency.

353
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:21,840
Well, you're not negotiating salary.

354
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,400
It's just PGY4 is PGY4.

355
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,000
Sorry, here's what you get.

356
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,560
Here's what you get.

357
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:27,960
You get to fellowship, it's the same thing.

358
00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:28,960
You're not negotiating anything.

359
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:33,480
You get to your faculty job, it's the first time you're expected.

360
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,200
There is an expectation for negotiation.

361
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:37,680
Expectation.

362
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,480
And so you've got to be prepared to negotiate.

363
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,120
I will say don't negotiate alone.

364
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:44,120
I did that.

365
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,760
I was totally like, okay, well, I'm supposed to negotiate, but I had no idea what I was

366
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:48,760
supposed to negotiate.

367
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,600
I negotiated by myself and I ended up with a very, very, very bad deal.

368
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,360
It took them years to, it took me years to unravel the bad deal, you know?

369
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:59,280
And I'm still figuring it out.

370
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,440
But it's really important to negotiate.

371
00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,920
No matter how great the offer, you're like, oh my gosh, this money is so stupid.

372
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,080
Oh my gosh, I love it.

373
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,680
And even accept at face value.

374
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:17,520
At a minimum, what you need to do is find the AAMC salary compensation report.

375
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,440
They print it annually.

376
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:25,560
As long as your academic medical center contributes to that data, you get the report for $60.

377
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,600
Don't say I don't have $60.

378
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,680
Is very, very important.

379
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,700
And if you don't have $60 or you don't have access to it, because if you are not part

380
00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:37,560
of an institution that contributes to this data, then you pay $1,500 for the report.

381
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:38,560
I have the report.

382
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,480
At a minimum, just ask me.

383
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,080
We will look it up together and I'll say, this is a salary based on the part of the

384
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,440
country you're in, blah, blah, blah.

385
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,760
There's 10th percentile, 25th percentile, 50th percentile.

386
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,800
At a minimum, aim for the median as like, this is what I want.

387
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,800
And you know what the thing about negotiation is?

388
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,480
As long as you have a clear justification for what you're negotiating, you have every

389
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:05,120
right to ask for it.

390
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:11,920
All you have to say is that the median salary at the AAMC benchmark across institutions

391
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,760
that are private in the Southeast United States is $353,000.

392
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,200
You don't have to ask any questions.

393
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,160
And they can argue that.

394
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,120
They can come and say, well, we don't really do the median, blah, blah, blah.

395
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:28,400
Then you can say, well, if you don't do the median, how will you make up for this for

396
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,400
me?

397
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:30,680
What are the other benefits?

398
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,640
So it's hard to do because we don't do that.

399
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,200
You had no practice for 10 years.

400
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,120
You've been just doing stuff and accepting at face value what people give you.

401
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:46,540
But when you go for your first faculty position, don't be desperate.

402
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:50,720
Take all the time you need, but you need to negotiate.

403
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,720
Now one of the things that's challenging is that we tend to be desperate when we come

404
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,600
to our faculty jobs because we're just like, I just need to pay off my student loan debt.

405
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,240
I just, I need to start this job yesterday.

406
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,320
Like I finished fellowship July, June 30th.

407
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,600
I need a job July 1st because I can't afford life without the job.

408
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,000
Don't be desperate.

409
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,880
You are full fledged attending once you finish residency.

410
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,360
Even if you didn't finish residency, you can still work.

411
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:22,060
Go find a locum's job and do it until you feel like you have the position that you really

412
00:21:22,060 --> 00:21:27,520
want or the salary that makes sense for you or the benefits that make sense for you.

413
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,400
Don't accept a job out of desperation.

414
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,280
Whatever they give you, review it with a team.

415
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:38,840
Now let me tell you that when academic institutions are negotiating with you, they're negotiating

416
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,040
as a team.

417
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,920
No division chief makes a decision by himself.

418
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,120
He takes whatever it is you say you want, takes it to like a team and then they say,

419
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:49,920
oh no, we don't want to give her this much.

420
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:50,920
No, no, no.

421
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:51,920
This is what we want to do.

422
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:52,920
This is what we want to do.

423
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:53,920
And then they come back to you.

424
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:59,040
So if this big bad institution has been around for hundreds of years is negotiating as a

425
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,360
team, please don't do it by yourself.

426
00:22:01,360 --> 00:22:05,560
At a minimum, find someone who's senior who you can just talk with and be like, hey, what's

427
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:06,560
your salary?

428
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:07,560
How did you negotiate this?

429
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,760
How can I negotiate it?

430
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,540
And do the negotiation, but don't do it by yourself.

431
00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:14,080
They're not doing it alone.

432
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,540
You don't do it alone.

433
00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:17,720
You have someone look at the contract with you.

434
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:19,240
You have someone help you.

435
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,240
And one of the things that I worked with a mentor when I did my second negotiation, I

436
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:29,640
didn't do the first one with anybody, but I would get it and she would say, great, is

437
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,640
this what you want?

438
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:31,640
What's the median salary?

439
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:32,640
I was like, I don't know.

440
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:33,880
Go find out the median salary.

441
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,360
What kind of support is expected for someone who's studying research?

442
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:37,400
Go find that out.

443
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,440
What is common as far as research package?

444
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,780
Go find that out and then write a letter.

445
00:22:41,780 --> 00:22:46,540
So for each phase of the negotiation, that was she wouldn't allow me to do anything verbal.

446
00:22:46,540 --> 00:22:48,840
I would always respond with a formal signed letter.

447
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,320
I would say, thank you so much for the offer that I see, blah, blah, blah.

448
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,040
Here's where I want to, you know.

449
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,680
And then, you know, they can talk and you think you're talking to friends, but it's

450
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,720
a formal contract negotiation and that is exactly how you should treat it.

451
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,280
Again, you're not used to doing that.

452
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,680
So don't try to do it by yourself.

453
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,400
I really, really, if you do, if you learn nothing at all, I, every job search should

454
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,040
always be done with someone supporting you, someone in your court, preferably a team,

455
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,560
but at least one more person other than you.

456
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:18,760
So that's the salary.

457
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:23,140
Number four, the reason you really want to negotiate the most, the highest salary you

458
00:23:23,140 --> 00:23:28,280
can get for the work you do is because to be honest, you're trading life years for money.

459
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,000
You are, you know, you spend a lot of time working.

460
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,000
You absolutely do.

461
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,960
What you want to do is you want to make sure you command a salary so that you don't have

462
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,280
to go find, you know, have to find the moonlighting job to make up your salary.

463
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,400
And a lot of people do that.

464
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,920
And to be honest, gosh, that's more time.

465
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:44,920
Kills you.

466
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,200
And, you know, earn the highest you can and then decide I want to go part time and earn

467
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,880
a third of it, whatever.

468
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:56,040
But just make sure that you get maximum value for the time you invest.

469
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,360
And especially if you're underrepresented, if you're a woman, people will do their best

470
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:04,560
to give you less than is standard.

471
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,360
That's why you do need to work with somebody to make sure that you get the maximum value

472
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,200
for the money that you have.

473
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:16,120
I will tell you that as a physician, your capital is an opportunity to invest so that

474
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:22,640
you can ultimately become financially independent, you know, and so the more you have to be able

475
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,000
to invest, the better it is for you.

476
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,560
And that's why it is really important.

477
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,480
Don't let anybody tell you it's not important.

478
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,480
Absolutely is important.

479
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,800
So please think about that.

480
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,600
The fifth thing and the last thing that I would say about what you should be thinking

481
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:40,720
about in the job is to be thinking about like what package would you negotiate for yourself?

482
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,260
Definitely, even if you're just coming out as a full time clinician, the question is

483
00:24:44,260 --> 00:24:48,160
what support do you have for the job you're being hired to do?

484
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,480
I, oh my goodness, I took a clinical job.

485
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:57,240
I didn't even have an administrative assistant, didn't have an MA I would work with.

486
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,960
I didn't, I had no support.

487
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,600
So I wasn't even resourced to succeed at the job I took.

488
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,000
And that's a problem.

489
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,920
If somebody says, I want you to come be a full time clinician, you want to know that

490
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,360
you have the full time clinician support to be successful at that job.

491
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:13,660
Otherwise you fail.

492
00:25:13,660 --> 00:25:18,200
So that's part of your negotiation is do I have what it takes to succeed?

493
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,080
For example, let's say they take you on in a research role and they say we're going to

494
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,200
give you 75% protected time for three years.

495
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,800
And in three years, we expect that you're going to be able to make the transition.

496
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:33,000
Now I have to tell you that PhD researchers who've done seven to 10 years of research

497
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:38,440
as part of their PhD training and their postdoc, they still need career development awards

498
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,960
to be able to like transition to independence.

499
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,000
So for any MD three years is actually not enough because you have much, much less clinical

500
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,640
training relative to a PhD researcher.

501
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,240
Now most people are going to give you only three years, but what I'm saying is that you

502
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:59,080
want to make sure that you are optimally resourced at the end of those three years to run, right?

503
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,120
You don't want to be at the end of three years saying, well, what, what just happened?

504
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:05,020
Three years will go by very quickly.

505
00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:10,940
What you want to do is say, if you're hiring me to succeed in research, where are the resources

506
00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:12,800
to help me succeed?

507
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,960
Where's my clinical research coordinator who's paying for that?

508
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,080
Where's the biostatistician I'm going to work with?

509
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:19,440
Who's paying for that?

510
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,520
Where's the grant writing sessions that I'm going to have access to?

511
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Who's paying for that?

512
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,280
You got to ask those questions because at the end of the day, if you don't succeed,

513
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,240
you know, they'll say, oh, what a waste of time.

514
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,960
But if they didn't resource you to succeed, then you weren't set up to succeed in the

515
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,320
first place.

516
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:40,120
But at the end of the day, it's up to you to be clear about what resources you need

517
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:41,120
to succeed.

518
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:43,440
And that's what you should negotiate.

519
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,280
So before ever you even start looking for the job, write a list of all the things you

520
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,920
need to succeed clinically and a list of all the things you need to do to succeed as a

521
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:53,260
scholar.

522
00:26:53,260 --> 00:26:54,360
Write them down.

523
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:59,920
And when they say, oh, I'm so sorry, we know the meeting is $350,000, but we can only offer

524
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:00,920
you $325,000.

525
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,960
And you can say, okay, can I get $25,000 worth of a research assistant?

526
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:07,960
You know?

527
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,600
It's not salary because they don't want to commit to this, you know, extra of $25,000

528
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:14,600
every year.

529
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,600
But it can give you something that helps to resource you so you can succeed.

530
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:20,600
Okay.

531
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,600
So that's it.

532
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:22,600
Those are the five points.

533
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,960
And if I remember correctly, number one was to start with what you want.

534
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,480
Number two is to be clear about community, the location that you're going to be.

535
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,000
Number three is then the job.

536
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,160
Like does it even have a semblance of the kind of job that you want?

537
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,400
Number four is salary.

538
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,040
And number five is what's the package that's going to support you in the job that you're

539
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,040
taking?

540
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:45,040
Okay.

541
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:49,120
I think I would just say that the big, the summary of it all at the end of the day is

542
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:52,920
that you are, you're coming into the job to succeed.

543
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,720
If you do not succeed, you disappoint the people who hired you, you disappoint yourself.

544
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,200
So be very clear about what success looks like and be very clear about what you need

545
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,620
to succeed.

546
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:05,620
That's what you negotiate.

547
00:28:05,620 --> 00:28:07,800
You negotiate what is needed to succeed.

548
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,280
It's not just salary.

549
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,320
It's the whole benefits package around how you succeed.

550
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,520
Salary is important because if they don't give you a certain salary, you can negotiate

551
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,920
other things, but you do need to know what you're negotiating and don't do it alone.

552
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,480
Make sure you do it as a team.

553
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:23,480
All right.

554
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:24,480
Excellent.

555
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,160
I'm going to stop recording and then I would love to hear your thoughts.

556
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,080
Well, there you have it.

557
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,280
I hope that was helpful to you.

558
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,360
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.

559
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:45,440
Thank you for listening.

560
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,800
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

561
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:56,040
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

562
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,600
have a mentor.

563
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,560
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

564
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,440
Someone else needs to hear it.

565
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,480
So take a minute right now and share it.

566
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,960
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

567
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:27,840
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.