Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
program.
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you
right now.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
I am excited to be bringing you today's episode about broadening your circle of influence.
Again, broadening your circle of influence.
And I'm so excited to bring this episode to you because it comes from a recent experience
I had of sitting in a room.
Actually, it was a virtual room, a virtual room full of physicians, women physicians,
who are working to improve their financial knowledge.
And I joined this community about a year ago today, and it never ceases to just change
my mind because I have to tell you that as an academic physician, I don't talk about
many very much.
I just, in general, we talk about money, not at all.
Sometimes we talk about a raise, maybe, you know, for the most part, it's just not part
of our conversation.
And I don't know about you, but as a medical student, as a resident, as a fellow, nobody
was talking about money.
And if they were, they were talking about it kind of on the, you know, in secret as
if it was something to be ashamed about.
And I know that the experience can be different for women versus men.
So I don't know what your experience was.
But in general, I think our society doesn't talk openly about money.
We do gripe about it.
We complain about it, but we don't always talk openly about strategies to improve our
lot.
Now, this episode is not about money, but I share my experience in this community to
say that every time I'm around this group of women, my mind is blown because I'm like,
oh my goodness, is that a strategy?
What?
And I'm always surprised.
And what's really cool is that because, you know, it's money, so you don't have to necessarily,
you know, have your own special specialty to be part of this group.
It's very much a multi-specialty, multidisciplinary group.
For that reason, I interact in this group with more people than I do, more people outside
my specialty than I do at work.
Because at work, I'm a hematologist, I hang out with the hematologist, and sometimes I'm
consulting for maybe the surgeons or the internist.
But there are people in the hospital I'll never meet because you know what?
We just don't have any reason for us to run in the same circles at work.
So it's been a real pleasure to be part of this group.
And just for in the interest of full disclosure, and because I really value this group, it's
Money Fit MD group with Dr. Latifat.
She just does a great job.
I mean, she's outstanding.
You should look her up.
Absolutely.
She's been on the podcast before.
So if you haven't already, look up her episode.
But I share that to say that it is so vital, so important for us to step outside of our
circle of influence.
Because the only way we ever broaden our own influence is by broadening our circle.
And in broadening our circle, we also broaden our circle of influence.
Now I'm advocating that we think about ways in which we can up the ante in exposing ourselves,
and I mean that in a good way, to people who are not like us.
Like I don't talk to GI doctors, those proceduralists always scoping.
I don't do scoping.
I'm an E&M doc, right?
There's no reason I would run into a GI doc unless they were consulting or something like
that.
But in these circles, everyone's talking about money, everyone's concerned about money.
And so the GI docs are there.
They have a different perspective.
They have different strategies they think about.
And so I realize that by being in a circle of people who think differently from me, who
approach life differently, who solve problems differently, I get strategies that help me
in my E&M medicine world.
And now I'm not just talking with regard to finances or clinical work.
I'm just talking in general that every time you're in a space, you're exposed to other
people, something changes.
And so that's what I'm here to talk about.
Okay.
The first thing I want to share is that it broadens your perspectives.
So you're a cool person.
I don't know who you are listening to me right now, but I just need you to know you're super
cool.
I know that because first you're listening to me and cool people recognize cool people.
Haha.
But also you went to medical school.
You took this crazy leap of faith and you throw away your 20s.
And you decided it was a worthy investment to serve humanity.
And that makes you super cool.
You've learned a lot.
You had a lot of experiences.
You came out on the other side of your training, totally different than how you walked in.
You are super cool, super cool.
And you could be cooler still because there are so many cool people you haven't even met
yet who will broaden your perspective, who will show you that in fact, your view of the
world is kind of small.
As a case in point, I had a meeting with statisticians today and this was a particular statistical
collaboration that's coming to an end.
And I remember thinking, I remember where I was before I met you in this collaboration.
I knew very little about statistics.
Now I've taken all those statistical courses that you've probably taken too, statistics
one and two, advanced statistics.
And I still am no nearer to being a statistician than I was when I didn't take any statistical
courses.
Right.
And my conversation with them on a weekly basis transformed my understanding of statistics
because they broaden my perspective.
And to be honest, what I realized is that I did not have respect for statisticians like
I should have, but now I have a great deal of respect.
What I realized is that they have knowledge gaps about clinical medicine, but I have knowledge
gaps about that statistics.
And so it has been a wonderful exchange of clinical for statistical knowledge.
They have broadened my perspective.
They're like iron sharpening my iron.
So together we're sharpened.
Sparks fly, sometimes there are fires, but we are both better at the end.
And so whoever is in your circle right now, you came into the circle, right?
You didn't used to be in medicine.
You came into clinical medicine.
You were up shoulders with all these amazing physicians that you work with.
That's great.
And now there's opportunity for more.
You didn't used to do research in health services and then you came into health services research
research.
You had all these collaborators that you've been working with and there is more.
There is more opportunity to broaden your networks and don't be afraid to lean into
it.
Don't be afraid to step into it.
Don't be afraid to do the impossible, to do the unthinkable.
And I mean that in a good way, but definitely you want to broaden your perspectives because
it changes who you are as a scientist.
It changes who you are as a clinician.
And it's absolutely important.
Number two goes without saying, networking opportunities come from interacting with people
that you usually wouldn't interact with because honestly, people are the only people that
open doors for other people.
Yes, I know that is all circular, but in life, the difference maker will always be, has always
been people.
Like the people who, the things that really make you mad, people.
The things that really bring you joy, people.
The things you love so much, people.
These people.
And so whenever you can broaden your networks of people, that's another opportunity for
an introduction to the next thing or the next thing or the next thing after that.
I'll give an example.
I got an email today from someone who was like, we think you're an expert who can speak
to blah, blah, blah.
And in my mind, I'm first of all like, well, yeah, I can see that I'm, well, I don't know.
I'm not even, I didn't even feel so confident I was the expert they were looking for.
But my first thought was where, how did you find me?
I don't know you.
How did you find me?
I mean, but clearly it's a legit, legit request, but I didn't know this person.
But I don't know how they got my information, but clearly it has to come from someone else.
So people knowing people, knowing people, knowing people.
People is how you grow your networks.
People is how you have opportunities.
People is how you have access to opportunities.
So whatever it is that you don't have within you, and you got a lot within you, it exists
in somebody who is already within your circle.
Whatever you need already exists in you or in somebody that surrounds you, right?
Or someone who's connected to someone in your circle.
And so networking opportunities abound when you leave your safe space and go occupy space
elsewhere.
And now this is something I want to point out.
You know, I don't know about you, but I've done all these career development type things
where you go and you're together with a group for a weekend and you have such a blast.
You're like, oh my gosh, you are so cool.
The weekend is over and that's it.
It's like, well, you know, the weekend's over.
You never connect again.
And I want to say that there is something to be said about being in community routinely,
consistently over an extended period of time.
And that's something that I've found to be really beneficial because sometimes the treasure
that is in people takes time to be revealed.
And so, you know, many times we talk about networking, about going to conferences and
meeting people and I tell you that that's good.
And I totally recommend and encourage that.
What's important is to establish relationships, establish long-term opportunities for connectedness
because more important than the one-off meetings at meetings, at conferences are the relationships
that are sustained even if they're not deep relationships.
The women I meet with in this group, we meet once a week.
That's it.
We meet once a week.
We're not best friends, but when we do get together, we have a great time and we're able
to think about each other because we kind of meeting routinely.
Right.
And so there's more opportunity for connections to occur because it's a long-term, long-term
relationship or long-term community.
So I just encourage finding community, real community as you're building and expanding
your networks.
Okay.
So networking opportunities, number two.
Number three is learning and growth.
I already talked about, you know, my experience with statisticians.
I, you know, I feel like I know a thing or two about statistics, but there's a lot I
don't know.
And so being in a constant, constant experience, constant community with statisticians over
the course of a year or two years, three years, I've really learned a lot.
I've expanded.
I have a new appreciation for statisticians and the work they do.
I have a new recognition of how long it really takes to give me that simple page of statistics
I think I want.
I'm learning.
I'm growing.
In fact, I can speak statistically now.
Actually, to be honest, I can't still, but what happens though is now when they're having
conversations, I just don't feel like I'm lost, right?
Now I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, regression, of course.
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, I know what that means.
Where before it was like, what are they saying is this English?
And so there's opportunity for learning and growth that comes from leaving your circle
to meet new friends, to meet new colleagues.
Number four is innovation and creativity.
Innovation and creativity.
So here's the thing.
There's nothing new in this world.
Nothing really.
What we're doing is we're borrowing from other fields and bringing them to our field.
And then it's like, oh, this is innovative.
Yeah, innovation is just about borrowing what somebody else is doing, a way they've solved
their problem to solve your problem.
It's a new way of looking at really old problems, right?
Innovation, creativity, it's applying your knowledge to creating new things, right?
And so when you go elsewhere, you're like, oh, okay, they solved it this way.
That's interesting.
It makes you think differently about the problems you're looking at.
And that is so wild as a scientist.
So awesome.
Because what are we doing in science?
We're solving problems.
And then somebody else has already solved a problem or at least has got further than
we have in their sphere.
And then we connect with them and we think, wait a minute, we could apply that to our
sphere of research.
And what would that break?
And so it spurs innovation and creativity.
And it's funny.
It's like they've been doing it before.
So it's not like it's new to them.
It's new to you.
It's new to your field.
It changes the way you think.
It is so awesome.
Like when the light bulb moment you have when you want somebody else solve a problem that
you have and you're like, wait a minute, you mean I could do X, Y, Z. It is so powerful.
Doesn't happen in the circle of friends that you know and love and are safe and comfortable
with.
It happens when you expose yourself to people who think differently from you, people who
have problems that are different from your problems.
So taking the time to step outside of your comfort zone and going and immersing yourself,
especially longitudinally in a community that's different from yours is so helpful because
it transforms the way you think.
All right.
That is innovation and creativity.
Number five is career advancement.
Yes, career advancement.
So you know the thing they tell you where you come, you put your head down, you work,
work, work, work, work, you meet the metrics, you get promoted, all of it is a lie?
Actually I walk that back.
I walk that back.
They're not lying to you.
They just are not giving you the whole picture.
I'm only just realizing now that doing all of that hard work is fine, and please do it,
but that there are people who don't do that and they still advance like they're crazy.
And it's like, wait a minute, I have more publications than you.
How are you further ahead than me?
And please don't do that.
Don't compare yourself to other people because it's always a losing battle.
Talk to us.
What I'm saying is that you realize that when you want to compare papers to papers, grants
to grants, many of the people who are moving ahead at a pace that's faster than you would
expect them to move.
If someone has published 3,000 papers, you're like, of course, I expect that you're a full
professor with tenure and three endowed chairs because you've done this crazy stuff.
So those people we get were like, yeah, you definitely got above and beyond.
You totally deserve all that.
And then there's some people who are like, oh yeah, I don't get it.
Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
And I realized that many times, not always, but many times the difference maker is that
they have networks and relationships.
You know what, if you're going to invite someone to come give a talk at your institution and
you had a choice between famous guy, so famous, but you don't even know who he is and not
quite so famous, but your buddy from med school, who are you going to invite?
Yeah, okay.
That's exactly how people think.
People want to connect with people they already are connected with.
Here we are talking about leaving your connections, like going outside.
And in reality, people like to stick with people they already know.
And so many times when we talk about this whole need for national recognition, for people
to invite you for talks, well, you think that the more papers you publish, the more invitations
you get.
It's like the more people know you, the more invitations you get.
And if they know you because you were connected in high school or you went to some one year
longitudinal career development program together, same difference.
You've taken 20 years to build your portfolio and now they know you.
Or it's been 10 years or five years in your portfolio, but they still know you.
People want to connect with people they already know.
And so all those things about national reputation and international reputation, it all comes
from people you know.
I'll tell you that I was recently putting together materials for promotion and I found
out as I was in researching metrics that were going to help explain my impact beyond the
H index, I found out that I had published over 50% of my papers with international collaborators.
Was it 38%?
It was a high percentage where I was like, what?
Who do I know who's international?
And it turns out that I have an international collaborator I've worked with long term, but
they weren't international technically when they started because we were working at the
same place.
But I was like, oh yeah, this person is international, but I hadn't really thought about it.
But now I go to get promoted and that matters.
All of a sudden it looks like, I mean, I do, but it looks like I have international connections
and I do have international connections, but not in the way I'm thinking about, right?
Because I'm thinking, yes, they know me because now my papers are circulating the world.
Most people's papers will not circulate the world until long after their death, but your
friends will circulate.
So many of the things that go into promotion are really based honestly on who knows you.
The more people you know, especially outside of your little sphere, the more you are able
to succeed in the things that people think we're supposed to put our head down and write,
write, write, write, write, and publish, publish, publish.
Don't get me wrong, all those things are important and good.
That's all you're doing.
You are playing a losing game.
And I say that kindly, I hope you receive it as kind because that's what I learned a
few, actually it wasn't even that long ago.
And they were like, Toyosi, this is one of my colleagues who may be listening.
And he was like, Toyosi, Toyosi, Toyosi, if you are putting your head down doing all this
work, it's not the way it works.
And I appreciate him.
Usually a guy, I feel like who has the inside information.
It's like, wait a minute, where was I when you were getting all this information?
Anyway, but no, no, no harm, no foul.
It's all good.
But I do want to share with you that if you are really serious about advancing, and some
of you don't care to advance in the academic environment, that's fine.
But if you are interested in advancing, you're going to want to broaden your circle for sure.
You don't want to do it in a way that's organic and natural to you, not feeling like, oh,
must make friends, must connect, must do mentoring and networking.
Don't think of it that way.
Just relax.
You're good at making friends.
You've been doing it all your life.
This is the same thing.
Just make sure you put yourself in spaces where it becomes easy to do that, rather than
the drive by during conferences.
Oh, wait a minute, can I shake your hand as you're running to the next thing?
So anyway, I feel like I've said, I've talked about that a lot.
So career advancement.
Number six is support and mentorship.
Now I don't know what it is about our own institutions, but many people are invested
in keeping the status quo.
And sometimes the status quo does not support early career faculty.
And I'm not sure why that is, but it is.
It is what it is.
The status quo doesn't always favor early career faculty.
And even though your mentors are lovely, and I have and have had lovely, lovely mentors,
many times people at your own institution, whether they know it or not, unconscious bias
is a real thing.
They're trying to maintain the status quo.
And so when you come with your brilliant ideas and you're like, oh, this is what I want to
do, they're like, yeah, we've never done it like this before.
And they support you, but they're kind of lukewarm about it.
Right?
They are.
Because you're threatening the status quo and people are people.
They like things to stay exactly the same, even when everything is changing, they're
going to hold on to their little corner of sameness.
I'm like that too.
So this is not a judgment on people.
It's just the way it is.
Right?
But it's a challenge for you because you're coming in with new ideas and innovations and
you want to advance things and you want to transform things.
You're pushing hard.
Now some people have great mentorship and everybody loves the new ideas that they bring,
which is great.
Most of us don't have that.
Right?
So one of the things that you can do is break outside of your institution.
And it's so important actually to cultivate a network of mentors and sponsors outside
of your institution.
So what's the difference between a mentor at your institution versus a mentor at another
institution?
Location.
Yes.
All politics is local politics.
Right?
If you are trying to advance in this way, somebody else is seeing you as threatening to their
position in your institution, the person at the other institution couldn't care less
how well you advanced.
Right?
Like, well, we don't care because your management doesn't affect me.
So they're more likely to be open.
They're more likely to share with you things that your mentors might not share with you
because they kind of are biased or they have conflict.
Right?
And so if you only have mentors at your own institution, you are doing yourself a disservice.
And even if your mentors are great, you're doing yourself a disservice because what you
need is a diversity of mentors and you need mentors who are outside your institution.
So you want to cultivate your network of mentors and sponsors outside of your institution.
As much as you have great people at your institution, please make sure that you are cultivating
outside of our institution.
Okay?
All right.
That's number six.
Finally, number seven has to do with increased influence.
The more people know you, the more people know you.
And the more people know you, the more people who know you are impressed by how many people
know you.
And they're like, well, I don't think much about her, but all these other people from
all these other institutions are saying she's great.
Maybe there is something to be said for that.
People just don't think much about the people they already know.
Nobody can be great in their own family in the way that they're like, wait a minute,
I changed your diapers.
What do you mean you're like top dog and I should look up to you with respect?
People are just people.
Right?
And it's fine.
It's the way it is.
It's your institution.
Until somebody else comes and says, this person's really, really cool.
And they're like, huh, this person?
And then they look at you with new eyes.
So it increases your influence.
All right.
Seven things I'm going to recap.
Number one, broadens your perspectives.
Number two, gives you networking opportunities.
Number three, it helps you learn and grow.
Number four, gives you innovation and creativity.
Number five, career advancement for sure.
Number six, increases your support and mentorship networks.
Number seven, increases your influence even within your own institution.
I hope you will consider, and I'm inviting you to consider, what are some spaces that
are open to you that are not the people you typically hang out with that you will pursue
this week?
Maybe it's a career development award opportunity.
Maybe it's just a professional development opportunity.
Maybe it's a career development opportunity.
Whatever it is, what circles can you insert yourself into?
Longitudinal, not talking about the drive-by networking thing.
What longitudinal circles can you insert yourself into in the next week or apply for or put
on your list of things to apply for that gets you connected with people who don't think
like you, don't look like you, don't walk like you, don't talk like you?
I invite you to think about that this week.
And then I'd love for you to tell me about it because I'd love to hear how your expanded
networking is transforming your career, especially as a clinician researcher.
I want to say that it's been so fun talking with you today.
I was so excited to talk about this topic and I'm so glad that you stayed till the end.
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.
Thank you for listening.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast where academic
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