1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,180
program.

7
00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,220
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

12
00:01:01,220 --> 00:01:06,820
Welcome to today's episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast.

13
00:01:06,820 --> 00:01:08,640
It's a pleasure to be talking with you today.

14
00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:10,460
Thank you so much for tuning in.

15
00:01:10,460 --> 00:01:16,940
I'm excited to be talking today about fear, fear in academia, and the importance of banishing

16
00:01:16,940 --> 00:01:17,940
fear.

17
00:01:17,940 --> 00:01:22,020
Specifically, I'm talking about not being afraid of what you do not know, do not be

18
00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:24,840
afraid of what you don't know.

19
00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,780
The reason this episode comes is because of a recent conversation I had with a young person,

20
00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:33,500
early career, and this person is still a trainee.

21
00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:38,940
I remember we were talking about a paper that this person's writing, and this is their first

22
00:01:38,940 --> 00:01:41,020
paper, and I forgot that.

23
00:01:41,020 --> 00:01:44,820
You know when you've done a lot of writing or you've published a lot of manuscripts,

24
00:01:44,820 --> 00:01:51,940
at least relatively speaking for me, and I forget what it is like to write that first

25
00:01:51,940 --> 00:01:58,860
manuscript, how hard it is, and how little time we have to dedicate to that manuscript

26
00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:01,900
because dedicating time to writing is not what we do.

27
00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:03,260
I forgot that.

28
00:02:03,260 --> 00:02:06,780
And I remember I was saying, great, so this is where you are right now, what I need is

29
00:02:06,780 --> 00:02:09,660
a title page and I need an outline.

30
00:02:09,660 --> 00:02:12,380
And then I paused and I was like, oh, wait a minute.

31
00:02:12,380 --> 00:02:15,860
Someone hasn't done this before.

32
00:02:15,860 --> 00:02:20,780
And not in a bad way, not in a judgmental way, but as a reminder to myself that wait

33
00:02:20,780 --> 00:02:25,500
a minute, if someone hasn't done this before, you can't have an expectation that they know

34
00:02:25,500 --> 00:02:33,500
what to do, and my job is to step in and to give them resources to be able to move forward.

35
00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:40,420
And I think it's so important that I was able to acknowledge that, especially because I

36
00:02:40,420 --> 00:02:44,180
think in that moment, this person was feeling like, well, I should know.

37
00:02:44,180 --> 00:02:50,180
I mean, clearly I've come very far in my education and in my training and how can I say I haven't

38
00:02:50,180 --> 00:02:51,860
done this before?

39
00:02:51,860 --> 00:02:56,020
And so they didn't want to ask me questions because they were expecting that they should

40
00:02:56,020 --> 00:03:00,140
know the way we behave in medicine where we're like, well, we don't know, but we're going

41
00:03:00,140 --> 00:03:02,060
to go study about it when you'll find out.

42
00:03:02,060 --> 00:03:04,180
And then we're going to come back and know.

43
00:03:04,180 --> 00:03:07,100
I just want to say that that's not healthy.

44
00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:11,420
The whole idea that you should go to a corner and find out all the answers before you come

45
00:03:11,420 --> 00:03:12,420
out.

46
00:03:12,420 --> 00:03:13,780
To be honest, there isn't even time for that.

47
00:03:13,780 --> 00:03:16,060
We need help and we need help now.

48
00:03:16,060 --> 00:03:19,140
And we need people to help us cut short the time.

49
00:03:19,140 --> 00:03:23,540
So all the time we invest in going to look stuff up, we need to cut it short by just

50
00:03:23,540 --> 00:03:27,660
asking questions.

51
00:03:27,660 --> 00:03:34,620
And so that fear, the fear of being judged, the fear of shame, the fear of not knowing

52
00:03:34,620 --> 00:03:40,620
and being exposed for not knowing overwhelms so much of what we do and keeps us focused

53
00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:45,500
on what we already know and keeps us hiding and running away from the things we do not

54
00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:46,500
know.

55
00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:55,020
So I want to talk about why we or the strategies that we need to help us really grow and expand.

56
00:03:55,020 --> 00:03:59,600
One of the things I talk about quite often is that clinical training is not research

57
00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:00,600
training.

58
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,180
It absolutely is not research training.

59
00:04:03,180 --> 00:04:08,020
And I don't care if you had two whole years of fellowship time, nobody has two years,

60
00:04:08,020 --> 00:04:12,980
maybe you had 18 months of fellowship time to do research, that's still not really sufficient

61
00:04:12,980 --> 00:04:14,780
research training time.

62
00:04:14,780 --> 00:04:20,500
PhD researchers get at least six years just in the course of doing their PhD.

63
00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:24,220
And okay, so they'll say, okay, it was not exactly six years, but just the bottom line

64
00:04:24,220 --> 00:04:25,980
is not the number of years.

65
00:04:25,980 --> 00:04:31,860
It's that those who get training to do research get a lot of years invested in research.

66
00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:38,560
And after they do their first degree, I mean, they get their PhD, then they also do more,

67
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,620
and then they do more, and then they do some more.

68
00:04:40,620 --> 00:04:44,800
And so it takes a long time to learn to do research well.

69
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,560
And if you're a clinician who's done all the things, you've gone through your clinical

70
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:54,180
training, even if you've done your fellowship and you had time to do research and fellowship,

71
00:04:54,180 --> 00:04:58,700
you still don't have near enough research training.

72
00:04:58,700 --> 00:05:04,740
And this is not a ding against MDs or those who are only clinically trained.

73
00:05:04,740 --> 00:05:07,900
It's just saying, hey, you don't have the skillset and that's okay.

74
00:05:07,900 --> 00:05:13,280
What you're going to do is grow the skillset, but you can't be ashamed of not knowing what

75
00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:14,500
you were not taught.

76
00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:19,780
And you cannot live in fear that someone's going to expose you for not knowing because

77
00:05:19,780 --> 00:05:23,500
you're not supposed to know and it's okay.

78
00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:28,620
So I want to talk about seven things specifically that can hold you back from growing in the

79
00:05:28,620 --> 00:05:32,140
way you're supposed to grow as a scientist, as a researcher, especially when you don't

80
00:05:32,140 --> 00:05:38,380
have the strong foundation of training that someone else's your counterpart might have.

81
00:05:38,380 --> 00:05:41,500
The first thing I want to share is that you have to banish shame.

82
00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:47,860
And I don't want to say you have to, should, or these terms that might suggest that you

83
00:05:47,860 --> 00:05:49,620
must do something.

84
00:05:49,620 --> 00:05:54,940
I'm saying that if you're going to succeed, shame cannot be part of your picture, not

85
00:05:54,940 --> 00:05:55,940
at all.

86
00:05:55,940 --> 00:05:58,780
See, the thing about shame is that shame is a trick.

87
00:05:58,780 --> 00:06:02,900
Shame is a trick to keep you from growing and expanding in the way you should.

88
00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:04,140
It's a trick.

89
00:06:04,140 --> 00:06:07,540
How can you grow if you're ashamed of what you don't know?

90
00:06:07,540 --> 00:06:11,300
How can you ask questions when you're ashamed that someone's going to figure out that you

91
00:06:11,300 --> 00:06:13,140
don't know?

92
00:06:13,140 --> 00:06:15,300
But in reality, you don't know.

93
00:06:15,300 --> 00:06:17,960
And it's okay that you don't know.

94
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:18,960
It's okay.

95
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,940
But shame is a trick because we're ashamed that someone's going to find out that we don't

96
00:06:23,940 --> 00:06:29,300
know, meanwhile, they kind of already know that we don't know, or maybe they don't, but

97
00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:30,340
we don't know.

98
00:06:30,340 --> 00:06:35,120
And so we're hiding something that's true, but is nothing to be ashamed of because the

99
00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:41,060
fact that we don't know opens up a door of opportunity for us to know.

100
00:06:41,060 --> 00:06:46,460
And it gives the person before us an opportunity to help educate us if they choose.

101
00:06:46,460 --> 00:06:48,140
And in medicine, there is a lot of judgment.

102
00:06:48,140 --> 00:06:53,900
So sometimes instead of educating us, people may actually say things that are hurtful.

103
00:06:53,900 --> 00:06:56,340
And that's happened too.

104
00:06:56,340 --> 00:07:01,380
But it does give them an opportunity to say, oh, you don't know, let me help you learn.

105
00:07:01,380 --> 00:07:07,460
And I would venture to say that many people around you have that heart, have that desire

106
00:07:07,460 --> 00:07:08,620
to help you.

107
00:07:08,620 --> 00:07:12,020
Once they figure out you don't know, they do want to help.

108
00:07:12,020 --> 00:07:16,660
But most of the time, we're so busy being ashamed of what we don't know.

109
00:07:16,660 --> 00:07:19,740
We don't give people opportunity to help us.

110
00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:21,900
And that is why shame is a trick.

111
00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:25,060
Shame tells you that you are protecting your self image.

112
00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:29,300
Meanwhile, it's holding you back from getting the help that you need.

113
00:07:29,300 --> 00:07:33,700
And so I want to encourage you for whatever reason you're like, well, I'm not very good

114
00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:35,160
at writing any scripts.

115
00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,660
I don't even know how to write a grant.

116
00:07:36,660 --> 00:07:37,660
Don't be ashamed of that.

117
00:07:37,660 --> 00:07:39,000
Of course, you don't know.

118
00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,260
You weren't taught.

119
00:07:40,260 --> 00:07:42,180
It wasn't part of your training.

120
00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:44,460
No, you don't know how to write a grant.

121
00:07:44,460 --> 00:07:45,460
That's okay.

122
00:07:45,460 --> 00:07:48,500
And you can be like, well, my mentor tried to show me.

123
00:07:48,500 --> 00:07:49,500
No.

124
00:07:49,500 --> 00:07:53,220
It takes years to learn to know how to be a good grant writer.

125
00:07:53,220 --> 00:07:56,100
It takes time to get really good.

126
00:07:56,100 --> 00:07:59,380
And yes, you may have written one or two grants in fellowship.

127
00:07:59,380 --> 00:08:03,340
That's not near enough experience to get really good.

128
00:08:03,340 --> 00:08:05,500
Look, this is not you.

129
00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:06,500
It's not your fault.

130
00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:08,760
You're not a bad person.

131
00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:09,760
You're not obtuse.

132
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:10,900
You're not dense.

133
00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:15,700
You are somebody who really wants to learn and you have not had opportunity.

134
00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:16,700
Here's the other thing.

135
00:08:16,700 --> 00:08:17,700
You're a great learner.

136
00:08:17,700 --> 00:08:21,340
You are great at learning, getting good at skills.

137
00:08:21,340 --> 00:08:24,980
You're great at that, if given the opportunity.

138
00:08:24,980 --> 00:08:27,500
And so don't be ashamed of what you don't know.

139
00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:29,900
You just don't know and it's okay.

140
00:08:29,900 --> 00:08:34,100
Imagine a kid who's trying to learn to walk and we're yelling at them saying, I can't

141
00:08:34,100 --> 00:08:35,380
believe you can't even walk.

142
00:08:35,380 --> 00:08:36,620
What's wrong with you?

143
00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:38,780
We don't do that.

144
00:08:38,780 --> 00:08:41,300
We don't do that.

145
00:08:41,300 --> 00:08:43,300
We encourage them.

146
00:08:43,300 --> 00:08:47,540
And we say, hey, good job.

147
00:08:47,540 --> 00:08:49,340
We encourage them.

148
00:08:49,340 --> 00:08:53,020
If they're crying and we're like, hey, kid, it's okay.

149
00:08:53,020 --> 00:08:55,900
Let's do this again.

150
00:08:55,900 --> 00:09:02,200
And so it is so important that we do not allow shame to keep us from growing and expanding

151
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,820
in the way that we need to.

152
00:09:04,820 --> 00:09:08,860
The second thing I want to share is that it's time to remove judgment.

153
00:09:08,860 --> 00:09:12,060
And I'm not just talking about judgment of others.

154
00:09:12,060 --> 00:09:16,500
I'm talking very specifically about judgment of yourself.

155
00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:19,760
It is time to stop judging yourself.

156
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,900
We look down on ourselves and we're like, I can't believe I don't know how to write

157
00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:23,900
a paper.

158
00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:25,940
I can't believe I don't know how to write a grant.

159
00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:27,940
I can't believe I can't finish this on time.

160
00:09:27,940 --> 00:09:29,900
I can't believe I can't make the deadline.

161
00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:37,780
And it's like, no, it's not expected that you start writing grants today and you know

162
00:09:37,780 --> 00:09:44,380
that, wow, this seemingly small application actually has 25 pages to it.

163
00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:49,260
It's not expected that you would know if you've never done it before.

164
00:09:49,260 --> 00:09:55,980
And every time you look at yourself in judgment, you shrink under the weight of that judgment.

165
00:09:55,980 --> 00:10:00,740
So it's not just others that judge you that causes you to shrink.

166
00:10:00,740 --> 00:10:07,180
It's you judging yourself that keeps you from thriving in creativity.

167
00:10:07,180 --> 00:10:09,340
Encouragement helps you do better.

168
00:10:09,340 --> 00:10:12,700
And there is no greater space for that encouragement than you.

169
00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:18,300
And sometimes you're looking at your mentor to encourage you and they may or may not.

170
00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:22,700
But we don't need to wait for the mentor to encourage us.

171
00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:25,020
We don't need to wait for somebody else to encourage us.

172
00:10:25,020 --> 00:10:30,780
We are the ones to encourage ourselves to stop being self-deprecating, to stop calling

173
00:10:30,780 --> 00:10:36,160
ourselves abusive names, to stop saying, oh, if only I knew better.

174
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,620
It's just not helpful.

175
00:10:38,620 --> 00:10:39,620
It's not helpful.

176
00:10:39,620 --> 00:10:45,520
Criticism doesn't help anybody grow and criticizing yourself is a problem because it doesn't give

177
00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,460
you room to thrive.

178
00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:53,540
And so one of the most important things you're going to do if you're going to succeed as

179
00:10:53,540 --> 00:10:58,780
someone who has not done this before, who's not written papers, who's not written grants,

180
00:10:58,780 --> 00:11:04,460
who has not submitted proposals before, figured out what proposals to submit, is to remove

181
00:11:04,460 --> 00:11:11,140
judgment from yourself and to just accept what is.

182
00:11:11,140 --> 00:11:14,860
Like, oh, okay, I haven't done this before.

183
00:11:14,860 --> 00:11:20,460
I'm going to need to do this for the first time without judgment, without criticism,

184
00:11:20,460 --> 00:11:21,460
without harshness.

185
00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:24,740
I'm just talking about not judging ourselves.

186
00:11:24,740 --> 00:11:27,500
But I'm also talking about not judging others.

187
00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:31,540
And this is something that, oh my goodness, was so hard for me to learn because I would

188
00:11:31,540 --> 00:11:37,100
look around at the people around me and I would say, you should have helped me.

189
00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:39,020
You should have known I didn't know this.

190
00:11:39,020 --> 00:11:41,540
You should have given me more of your time.

191
00:11:41,540 --> 00:11:45,460
And honestly, nobody owes me anything.

192
00:11:45,460 --> 00:11:52,220
Anything I receive from everybody, from anybody around me, mentor, division director, dean,

193
00:11:52,220 --> 00:11:54,600
all of it is a gift.

194
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,820
And if they don't give it to me, they don't have to give me any gifts.

195
00:11:58,820 --> 00:12:00,620
But if they do, I am grateful.

196
00:12:00,620 --> 00:12:03,560
And if they don't, I don't judge them for it.

197
00:12:03,560 --> 00:12:08,340
And the reason we have to let go of judging others is because, to be honest, judging others

198
00:12:08,340 --> 00:12:11,380
is a sign of how harshly we judge ourselves.

199
00:12:11,380 --> 00:12:13,020
Yep.

200
00:12:13,020 --> 00:12:18,020
And if we would let go of judging ourselves, then we would let go of judging others as

201
00:12:18,020 --> 00:12:19,020
well.

202
00:12:19,020 --> 00:12:23,500
And so I want to invite you to stop judging yourself first.

203
00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:30,460
But I also invite you to practice not judging others as well, no matter how badly they

204
00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:32,060
behave.

205
00:12:32,060 --> 00:12:34,780
Take whatever they give you as information.

206
00:12:34,780 --> 00:12:37,260
Use it to make your next best decision.

207
00:12:37,260 --> 00:12:40,060
Okay, this mentor tends to yell a lot.

208
00:12:40,060 --> 00:12:41,060
Okay.

209
00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:42,060
All right.

210
00:12:42,060 --> 00:12:43,060
Don't be angry.

211
00:12:43,060 --> 00:12:44,060
Don't be mad.

212
00:12:44,060 --> 00:12:45,700
Just decide, are you going to stick around for it?

213
00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:47,980
Are you going to find yourself a new mentor?

214
00:12:47,980 --> 00:12:50,180
How are you going to work yourself out of the situation?

215
00:12:50,180 --> 00:12:52,180
Just use it as information.

216
00:12:52,180 --> 00:12:54,460
But remove judgment from your experience.

217
00:12:54,460 --> 00:12:55,840
It doesn't help you.

218
00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,200
The energy of judgment doesn't allow you to move forward in the way you want.

219
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,580
It actually inhibits your learning.

220
00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:09,660
So remove judgment if you're going to advance in the space of your academic growth as a

221
00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:10,660
researcher.

222
00:13:10,660 --> 00:13:17,580
The third thing I want to share is that in as much as you're no longer judging yourself

223
00:13:17,580 --> 00:13:21,540
or others, don't accept others' judgment of you.

224
00:13:21,540 --> 00:13:23,460
Okay, it's medicine.

225
00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:25,260
There's so much judgment everywhere.

226
00:13:25,260 --> 00:13:28,460
We judge each other so badly.

227
00:13:28,460 --> 00:13:34,060
But in reality, anybody can say anything and if you don't receive it as such, then it didn't

228
00:13:34,060 --> 00:13:35,060
happen.

229
00:13:35,060 --> 00:13:40,540
If somebody looks at you and they sneer and you don't accept it as a sneer, then it just

230
00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:42,300
it's like it didn't happen.

231
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:46,180
If somebody says something that's a judgment against you and you don't receive it as a

232
00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:49,780
judgment, it's as if it didn't happen.

233
00:13:49,780 --> 00:13:54,140
And so don't accept judgment from other people.

234
00:13:54,140 --> 00:14:01,660
Let's say you've never written a manuscript and you write one and it's not a great draft.

235
00:14:01,660 --> 00:14:05,220
You don't even know how bad the draft is, but you wrote the draft and you're like, oh

236
00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:06,660
great, well, here's a draft.

237
00:14:06,660 --> 00:14:17,160
And you present it to someone who's mentoring you in this area and they say, this is terrible.

238
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:18,160
Don't accept the judgment.

239
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:22,540
Say, okay, it looks like this could be better.

240
00:14:22,540 --> 00:14:23,900
Don't accept the judgment.

241
00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:26,140
Don't accept the shame that comes with the judgment.

242
00:14:26,140 --> 00:14:29,500
Don't accept the feelings that come with the judgment.

243
00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:33,340
Just say, oh, okay, well, I thought it was good, but I guess not.

244
00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:34,340
Okay.

245
00:14:34,340 --> 00:14:35,340
Don't accept the judgment.

246
00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:39,220
Don't accept those negative feelings that make you feel like I will never do this again.

247
00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:44,260
Why I will never put my foot forward in this way anymore.

248
00:14:44,260 --> 00:14:45,660
Don't do that.

249
00:14:45,660 --> 00:14:47,040
Don't accept the judgment.

250
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,260
People have judgments and for better or for worse, maybe they're trying to help us improve

251
00:14:52,260 --> 00:14:57,180
in medicine, we haven't always learned how to encourage people.

252
00:14:57,180 --> 00:15:03,980
But no matter how people come at you, if it feels like they're saying something bad about

253
00:15:03,980 --> 00:15:05,660
your work, don't accept it.

254
00:15:05,660 --> 00:15:08,900
And here's the flip side of that though.

255
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:13,940
It's easy to say, don't accept the bad judgment, but don't accept the good judgment either.

256
00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:17,940
Don't let someone look at the very first manuscript you've ever written and tell you, this is

257
00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:19,940
fantastic.

258
00:15:19,940 --> 00:15:20,940
Don't accept that either.

259
00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:23,540
And what do I mean by not accepting that?

260
00:15:23,540 --> 00:15:25,780
Don't just say, oh, okay, great.

261
00:15:25,780 --> 00:15:28,220
And pat yourself on the back and feel good.

262
00:15:28,220 --> 00:15:31,580
Say, oh, okay, what's great about it, right?

263
00:15:31,580 --> 00:15:35,220
And by not accepting judgment, what you're asking for is unbiased feedback.

264
00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:37,120
You're like, no, no, no, don't tell me it's great.

265
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:38,120
Don't tell me it's terrible.

266
00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,480
Tell me how to make it better.

267
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,020
Tell me how to improve it.

268
00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:45,860
If it's already great, as you're saying it is, well, tell me what's already good about

269
00:15:45,860 --> 00:15:46,860
it.

270
00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:48,260
So I know what to do again.

271
00:15:48,260 --> 00:15:49,940
Because you're not here for praise.

272
00:15:49,940 --> 00:15:51,740
You're not here for criticism.

273
00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:52,740
You're here to grow.

274
00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:53,740
That's it.

275
00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:54,740
You're here to grow.

276
00:15:54,740 --> 00:15:56,580
And what helps you grow?

277
00:15:56,580 --> 00:15:58,540
Feedback that is actionable.

278
00:15:58,540 --> 00:16:00,020
End of the story.

279
00:16:00,020 --> 00:16:01,020
Terrible.

280
00:16:01,020 --> 00:16:04,180
That's feedback that's not actionable, not useful.

281
00:16:04,180 --> 00:16:05,860
Don't accept it.

282
00:16:05,860 --> 00:16:07,180
Amazing.

283
00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:10,100
That's feedback that's not actionable.

284
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,240
Don't accept it.

285
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,820
And by don't accept it, I'm not just saying just block it out of your ears and say, la,

286
00:16:15,820 --> 00:16:16,820
la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.

287
00:16:16,820 --> 00:16:17,820
I can't hear you.

288
00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:18,820
Don't do that.

289
00:16:18,820 --> 00:16:20,540
But ask questions.

290
00:16:20,540 --> 00:16:22,260
Don't settle for what they told you.

291
00:16:22,260 --> 00:16:24,560
Like, OK, I hear that you don't like it.

292
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,820
What is it about it that you don't like?

293
00:16:26,820 --> 00:16:29,620
Or I hear that you think this is really amazing.

294
00:16:29,620 --> 00:16:32,140
Tell me what it is about it that could make it better.

295
00:16:32,140 --> 00:16:33,140
Right?

296
00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:35,340
You're asking for feedback that's actionable.

297
00:16:35,340 --> 00:16:38,000
It's the only way you grow.

298
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,300
Don't take any of it personally.

299
00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:45,020
But don't accept what they give you without pushing back and saying, I can see that this

300
00:16:45,020 --> 00:16:46,820
paper is annoying.

301
00:16:46,820 --> 00:16:49,620
I can see that.

302
00:16:49,620 --> 00:16:55,560
Tell me how I can actionably, reasonably improve it.

303
00:16:55,560 --> 00:16:59,380
Push back and let people give you feedback that's actionable.

304
00:16:59,380 --> 00:17:04,480
And if you are in a situation or in a mentoring relationship where your mentor cannot give

305
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,780
you feedback that's actionable, that is not a mentoring relationship that you want to

306
00:17:08,780 --> 00:17:13,620
continue in, no matter how amazing that mentor is on paper.

307
00:17:13,620 --> 00:17:18,220
Any mentor that cannot give you feedback that's actionable, that allows you to grow, is not

308
00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:20,180
a mentor for you.

309
00:17:20,180 --> 00:17:24,380
They may be great and give other people actionable feedback, but if they can't give you actionable

310
00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:27,620
feedback that you can grow, they are not the mentor for you.

311
00:17:27,620 --> 00:17:33,180
So do not accept the judgment of others, whether good judgment or bad judgment.

312
00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:38,180
The fourth thing I want you to share is that it is so important for you to prioritize learning.

313
00:17:38,180 --> 00:17:43,180
And this is why we do the work of removing the shame and the judgment associated with

314
00:17:43,180 --> 00:17:46,780
this whole process, because we're here to learn.

315
00:17:46,780 --> 00:17:48,460
We're already really good clinically.

316
00:17:48,460 --> 00:17:50,500
We spent 10 years doing the clinical stuff.

317
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:51,500
We're good at that.

318
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:57,460
What we're not good at is writing papers over and over and over again, shepherding them

319
00:17:57,460 --> 00:17:59,860
through the manuscript publication process.

320
00:17:59,860 --> 00:18:02,580
We're not that great at writing grants.

321
00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:03,580
And that's okay.

322
00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:08,180
We are getting better, but we're not the best yet.

323
00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:10,100
So we prioritize learning.

324
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:14,260
We prioritize learning, and that's why we remove all the stuff that keeps us from learning

325
00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:17,900
so that we can learn, so that we can improve.

326
00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:20,980
We're not improving to impress other people.

327
00:18:20,980 --> 00:18:21,980
We're not.

328
00:18:21,980 --> 00:18:22,980
We're improving so we can grow.

329
00:18:22,980 --> 00:18:27,580
We're improving so we can grow and start to stand independently by ourselves to do this

330
00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:28,580
work.

331
00:18:28,580 --> 00:18:33,060
So we don't need to come every day to the office to say, mentor of mine, please edit

332
00:18:33,060 --> 00:18:34,060
my work.

333
00:18:34,060 --> 00:18:35,060
Right?

334
00:18:35,060 --> 00:18:40,780
So that we can do it on our own and get to the place where we can actually teach others

335
00:18:40,780 --> 00:18:43,020
so that they can do the same as well.

336
00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:46,420
So we can reproduce the skills we have in others.

337
00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:52,060
So prioritizing learning is so important, and that's why we reject the shame that keeps

338
00:18:52,060 --> 00:18:54,540
us from asking the questions that allow us to grow.

339
00:18:54,540 --> 00:18:59,120
We reject the judgment that keeps us from getting feedback that's actionable.

340
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:05,700
We reject judging ourselves so that we can thrive so that we can prioritize learning.

341
00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,840
At the end of the day, this is about our growth.

342
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,660
We're already good at other things, but if we just stayed at what we were good at, then

343
00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:15,900
we would just be one-sided.

344
00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:17,280
But we want to expand.

345
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,160
We want to have skills that we didn't have before.

346
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,940
We want to be able to write in a way that's compelling.

347
00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:27,420
We want to be able to sell our science for better or for worse.

348
00:19:27,420 --> 00:19:33,780
We want to be able to write a six-page research strategy and get a couple of hundreds of thousands

349
00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:34,780
of dollars.

350
00:19:34,780 --> 00:19:42,060
We want to be able to do that well, and therefore we embrace the opportunities to learn.

351
00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:47,140
The fifth thing we want to do in order for us to learn is to ask questions.

352
00:19:47,140 --> 00:19:48,500
Okay.

353
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:54,860
So I think the whole process of being pimped in medical school and pimping when you became

354
00:19:54,860 --> 00:20:00,060
maybe the senior resident is that asking questions seems to be a bad thing.

355
00:20:00,060 --> 00:20:01,420
It's like, oh, what is she thinking?

356
00:20:01,420 --> 00:20:02,420
What is she thinking?

357
00:20:02,420 --> 00:20:03,420
What's the right answer?

358
00:20:03,420 --> 00:20:07,860
What if I don't have the right answer in the stress that comes out of asking questions

359
00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:08,860
sometimes?

360
00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:16,780
But I want us to step away from the stress of asking questions that comes with our spaces

361
00:20:16,780 --> 00:20:21,700
in the clinical space and go back to when we asked questions when we were kids.

362
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:26,060
Remember that time when we didn't even know we were annoying our parents and we asked,

363
00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:29,660
why is the sky blue?

364
00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:30,660
But why?

365
00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:31,660
And we keep asking.

366
00:20:31,660 --> 00:20:32,820
We're not asking to be annoying.

367
00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:34,780
We're asking because we really want to know.

368
00:20:34,780 --> 00:20:35,780
We have no idea.

369
00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:38,620
We have no clue, but we want to know.

370
00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:41,220
We are curious people.

371
00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:43,020
We want to know.

372
00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:48,300
And I want to invite you back to that beautiful space of just asking questions and just asking.

373
00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:49,620
Say, I just want to know.

374
00:20:49,620 --> 00:20:50,960
I don't know.

375
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,900
Why is it that we have to write the title page in this way?

376
00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:55,900
Ask questions.

377
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:58,020
Now, here's the thing about asking questions.

378
00:20:58,020 --> 00:21:02,740
There are going to be some people who love your questions, who welcome them, and who

379
00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:04,140
answer them all the time.

380
00:21:04,140 --> 00:21:07,660
They are the people who are going to say, okay, this is a great question.

381
00:21:07,660 --> 00:21:10,620
You should read this paper that's going to answer three or four of the questions you

382
00:21:10,620 --> 00:21:13,380
have right now, and then let's talk about it next time.

383
00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:14,380
And that's okay.

384
00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:18,300
You're also going to get to the people who are like, don't ask me any more questions.

385
00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:23,060
And that's okay too, because in the way they respond to your question asking, they're giving

386
00:21:23,060 --> 00:21:24,060
you information.

387
00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:27,980
They're saying, I am not the kind of person you can ask questions of.

388
00:21:27,980 --> 00:21:30,940
I'm not someone who can help you grow and learn.

389
00:21:30,940 --> 00:21:35,460
Or they're saying, I just don't have bandwidth to help you grow in this way.

390
00:21:35,460 --> 00:21:36,460
Go to someone else.

391
00:21:36,460 --> 00:21:38,420
They're giving you information.

392
00:21:38,420 --> 00:21:44,780
But for you, your job is not to tiptoe around people who may not want to answer your questions.

393
00:21:44,780 --> 00:21:50,220
Your job is to ask and to find the people who are so excited when you ask.

394
00:21:50,220 --> 00:21:55,700
You think about those teachers in early kindergarten, I hope you remember, who were so excited about

395
00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:57,100
your love for learning.

396
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,900
They just loved how much you wanted to learn.

397
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:03,100
Those are the people you look for.

398
00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:07,300
And if you're not finding them in your immediate environment, you've got to go further to find

399
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:08,300
them.

400
00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:13,900
But your questions are beautiful, because they represent someone who wants to know more.

401
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:19,180
And people who are excited to teach learners want questions like the ones you have.

402
00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:27,540
And I just want to invite you to not take any curmudgeonly answers, any curmudgeonly

403
00:22:27,540 --> 00:22:33,900
people around you, and to find the people who want to answer your questions so that

404
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:35,980
you can keep on asking.

405
00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:38,760
The sixth thing I want to invite you to do is to push for more.

406
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,460
Don't accept what you already know.

407
00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:46,700
Sometimes I come across clinicians who say, you know what, I'm already a good clinician.

408
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:47,940
I don't need all this.

409
00:22:47,940 --> 00:22:55,180
And it's like, yeah, you are a good clinician, but you want more out of your experience.

410
00:22:55,180 --> 00:22:57,660
Don't settle for what you've been given.

411
00:22:57,660 --> 00:22:58,660
Push for more.

412
00:22:58,660 --> 00:23:02,820
No, you don't know how to write manuscripts really well, but you want to learn because

413
00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:05,520
of how it helps you develop as a writer.

414
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:06,520
Push for more.

415
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,700
No, you don't need to spend all this time asking for grant funding.

416
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:13,140
You just want to be able to settle your salary and go home.

417
00:23:13,140 --> 00:23:18,180
But there's a reason why you want to do more than what you're already doing because what

418
00:23:18,180 --> 00:23:24,360
you're doing right now does not satisfy that longing and the desire in you for more.

419
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,100
Push for more.

420
00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:27,980
Please don't settle.

421
00:23:27,980 --> 00:23:32,920
You can never be happy or fulfilled if you settle.

422
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,780
You settle for less than your best, settle for less than your potential.

423
00:23:36,780 --> 00:23:40,300
And I'm not even saying everybody has to be a scientist.

424
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:45,100
I'm not even saying that, but I'm saying if it is in your heart to do research, if it's

425
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:51,340
in your heart to write papers, to publish, to be a scholarly person, even when you meet

426
00:23:51,340 --> 00:23:54,820
opposition, you should push for more.

427
00:23:54,820 --> 00:24:01,700
And the reason you push for more is that your highest self depends on you actualizing your

428
00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:03,700
full potential.

429
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:06,900
And pushing for more allows you to do that.

430
00:24:06,900 --> 00:24:08,940
And that brings me to number seven.

431
00:24:08,940 --> 00:24:13,620
As you're pushing for more, it's going to be uncomfortable for you, maybe for other

432
00:24:13,620 --> 00:24:16,900
people as well, but mostly for you.

433
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:20,460
And it's going to be okay to sit with discomfort.

434
00:24:20,460 --> 00:24:21,460
That's going to be okay.

435
00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:22,460
It's going to be hard.

436
00:24:22,460 --> 00:24:24,980
It's going to be important for you to do that.

437
00:24:24,980 --> 00:24:29,860
You're going to ask a question and someone's going to look at you like, wait a minute,

438
00:24:29,860 --> 00:24:38,100
anybody, anybody with head, I don't even know what expression I'm trying to say.

439
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:39,820
You know, like anybody should know that.

440
00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:41,540
How come you don't know that?

441
00:24:41,540 --> 00:24:43,340
Like a first year PhD student would know that.

442
00:24:43,340 --> 00:24:46,660
How come you don't know that, doctor?

443
00:24:46,660 --> 00:24:49,060
Just sit with the discomfort of, well, I don't know.

444
00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:52,220
And I'm asking you, what do you want to do about it?

445
00:24:52,220 --> 00:24:57,260
And I'm not saying that you should do it with attitude or ugliness in any way, but just

446
00:24:57,260 --> 00:25:02,580
recognize that sometimes people are not used to people who are open and honest about what

447
00:25:02,580 --> 00:25:04,860
they don't know, especially in medicine.

448
00:25:04,860 --> 00:25:06,540
We're always hiding what we don't know.

449
00:25:06,540 --> 00:25:14,100
And so when you say, I don't know how to do this, and then you pause and it looks uncomfortable.

450
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:18,580
You give the other person the opportunity to say, well, who will I be in this, in this

451
00:25:18,580 --> 00:25:19,580
moment?

452
00:25:19,580 --> 00:25:23,580
Am I going to be ugly and, and, and berate you?

453
00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:26,660
And maybe they will sit with that.

454
00:25:26,660 --> 00:25:32,180
They're going to be many uncomfortable moments, but they're going to be important and defining

455
00:25:32,180 --> 00:25:33,820
moments.

456
00:25:33,820 --> 00:25:38,180
When you learn to sit with discomfort, you learn to expand who you are.

457
00:25:38,180 --> 00:25:40,240
You learn to expand your tolerance.

458
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,060
You learn to be more.

459
00:25:42,060 --> 00:25:48,860
I invite you to sit with discomfort, especially as you're pushing for more.

460
00:25:48,860 --> 00:25:52,820
And so those are the seven things that I wanted to share with you today.

461
00:25:52,820 --> 00:25:54,020
Number one is to banish shame.

462
00:25:54,020 --> 00:25:56,100
Number two is to remove judgment.

463
00:25:56,100 --> 00:26:00,740
Number three is not to accept the judgment of others, whether good judgment or bad judgment.

464
00:26:00,740 --> 00:26:02,700
Number four is to prioritize learning.

465
00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:04,740
Number five is to ask questions.

466
00:26:04,740 --> 00:26:06,780
Number six is to push for more.

467
00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:11,180
And number seven is to learn to sit with discomfort.

468
00:26:11,180 --> 00:26:16,300
I hope that you will consider these things on your quest on learning to grow as a scientist.

469
00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:19,980
You didn't have the training, not the extensive training that you could have.

470
00:26:19,980 --> 00:26:20,980
And it's okay.

471
00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:21,980
That's in the past.

472
00:26:21,980 --> 00:26:24,660
What you're doing is you're getting the skills today.

473
00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:29,300
And I want to invite you to do everything you can to grow and expand the someone who's

474
00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:34,060
learning in this space, even if you didn't have the training or the experience that you

475
00:26:34,060 --> 00:26:37,380
should have had by now, but don't judge yourself.

476
00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:39,180
Don't judge others.

477
00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:44,780
And if you need someone to help you walk through as you're learning to stop automatically judging

478
00:26:44,780 --> 00:26:47,620
things, I'd be happy to be there for you as your coach.

479
00:26:47,620 --> 00:26:53,780
But I encourage you to think differently about your experience and to enjoy this journey

480
00:26:53,780 --> 00:26:56,460
because the journey is the gift.

481
00:26:56,460 --> 00:26:57,460
All right.

482
00:26:57,460 --> 00:26:58,860
It's been a pleasure talking with you today.

483
00:26:58,860 --> 00:27:09,980
I look forward to talking with you again next time on the clinician researcher podcast.

484
00:27:09,980 --> 00:27:15,340
Thanks for listening to this episode of the clinician researcher podcast where academic

485
00:27:15,340 --> 00:27:20,620
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

486
00:27:20,620 --> 00:27:22,140
have a mentor.

487
00:27:22,140 --> 00:27:28,220
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

488
00:27:28,220 --> 00:27:29,980
Someone else needs to hear it.

489
00:27:29,980 --> 00:27:34,020
So take a minute right now and share it.

490
00:27:34,020 --> 00:27:39,500
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

491
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:59,540
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.