1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,180 program. 7 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,100 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,100 --> 00:01:03,300 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:07,020 I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to be here today. 14 00:01:07,020 --> 00:01:13,320 I'm especially excited because I have a very, very, very special guest on today. 15 00:01:13,320 --> 00:01:15,220 She is not a physician. 16 00:01:15,220 --> 00:01:20,440 She's a pharmacist, or I should say she was a pharmacist, because right now she is president 17 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,020 of Albany College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences. 18 00:01:24,020 --> 00:01:29,120 Dr. Tofade, or should I say President Tofade, welcome to the show. 19 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:30,620 Thank you for having me. 20 00:01:30,620 --> 00:01:35,340 Dr. Tafade, one of the reasons I asked you to come here is because you are one of my 21 00:01:35,340 --> 00:01:41,360 mentors and sponsors, and you've been a coach to me in many things. 22 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:46,560 I consider myself very fortunate because not very many people have presidents as mentors 23 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,600 or sponsors. 24 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:53,040 But we're here today to really talk in general about mentorship and sponsorship, and even 25 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,040 across disciplines. 26 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:59,360 But before we get started, I want you to just help our audience. 27 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:05,560 We're clinicians, scientists, help our audience understand your journey to where you are today. 28 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,020 Well, thank you. 29 00:02:07,020 --> 00:02:11,040 Thank you so much, and greetings to everybody who's listening to this podcast. 30 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:16,760 I'm Toyin Tofade, and I started my journey being a pharmacist, actually. 31 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:23,680 I did my master's in PharmD at UNC Chapel Hill, and I also practiced as a pharmacist, 32 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,440 a clinical specialist at UNC hospitals for several years. 33 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:34,640 Then moved to Raleigh in North Carolina at the Wake Area Health Education Center, which 34 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:40,040 is where I served for about nine years, first doing some continuing education work in addition 35 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:45,520 to practicing on the WakeMed physicians training team. 36 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:51,160 And so that was a great experience to be able to teach physicians some of the ways in which 37 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:57,440 we use drugs in patients, while at the same time having residents, fellows, students on 38 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,880 the pharmacy side co-learn in such a teaching environment. 39 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,320 So that was fantastic. 40 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:09,040 And then moved into more of a leadership role as associate director or pharmacotherapy services 41 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:17,720 director by creating experiences for our students in the Wake County region, about a nine-county 42 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:18,720 region. 43 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,040 That's how UNC train their students, similar to how they train the physicians on clock 44 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:23,040 shifts. 45 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:29,920 And so after that was done, we were able to have this opportunity to do the same thing 46 00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:33,680 at a different state, so University of Maryland Baltimore. 47 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:39,160 I was there as associate director and then eventually assistant dean, so about over four 48 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:40,160 years. 49 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:46,280 I was really growing the experiential component of the student pharmacist learning opportunities 50 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,200 there and that scope covered the entire state. 51 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:54,800 So that was a privilege to be able to serve the institution in that way. 52 00:03:54,800 --> 00:04:01,880 And after completing that, I had the distinct opportunity to serve as dean of Howard University 53 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,480 College of Pharmacy for about six years. 54 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,240 So that was in DC and then came here. 55 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:13,640 Not too long, so six years after completing dean, I had the opportunity to come to Albany 56 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,200 College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences to serve as president and professor. 57 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,240 So it's been a journey. 58 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,280 It's been just a privilege to serve people all through that journey. 59 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:26,280 Yeah. 60 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:34,200 Dr. Safade, thank you so much, and as you are sharing your journey, I'm struck, I think, 61 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,120 by the number of institutions that you've had the opportunity to serve. 62 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,120 Now sometimes people talk about when you stay at the same institution, there are advantages, 63 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:43,120 right? 64 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,800 Because there's deep knowledge of the institution, there's so many people you know, you've had 65 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,080 the opportunity to move from place to place. 66 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:53,400 Talk about some of the advantages in your career of doing these moves and some of the 67 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,840 disadvantages you feel like may have come from moving. 68 00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:03,200 Some of the advantages of staying in the same location is the upward mobility that it might 69 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:10,480 provide, and really just growing roots, strengthening the work and the projects you might have done 70 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,080 there. 71 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,840 And one of the things that my dad always told me is, you know, when the applause is loudest 72 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:19,760 and that's when you have to consider leaving. 73 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,880 I think what that translates to is you have to assess yourself and the accomplishments 74 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:32,920 that you have, you know, been able to establish right in that location or institution or committee 75 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,280 or wherever it is you're referring to. 76 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:39,280 And ask the question, am I done? 77 00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:45,160 Done not in the sense of frustration or done in the sense of, ugh, let's go. 78 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,560 But thinking about, can I outdo myself here? 79 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:54,460 At least that's the question that I ask myself is, is there anything else? 80 00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:56,440 How can I top this? 81 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,200 Because I'm very goal driven. 82 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,640 I try to serve the institution with all my heart, soul, and mind as much as possible. 83 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:09,560 And so there comes a time when you realize, you know, A, there might be somebody who can 84 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,600 do better here and I don't have that skill set to take it to the next level that I think 85 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:22,600 it needs to go, or I have maxed out what I believe my capacity is able to accomplish 86 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:32,560 and in alignment with long-term goals and long-term impact, it is a mutually win-win 87 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,840 benefit to move to a different institution. 88 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:38,520 For everybody, that's different. 89 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,920 For everybody, it varies. 90 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:49,680 So I'm grateful that for me, for each move, it has aligned nicely with what was necessary 91 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:56,880 and it was very positive actually for everyone that I have served so far. 92 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:01,340 And I'm just grateful and honored to have served each and every one of these institutions 93 00:07:01,340 --> 00:07:08,840 to the best of my ability and to leave it in a place where you can say was better than 94 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:12,720 when you met it. 95 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:13,720 I love it. 96 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:14,720 Thank you for sharing that. 97 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,960 What I hear also in what you're sharing is even if we don't think about it as leaving 98 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,340 institutions, I mean, even within institutions, people move from position to position and 99 00:07:24,340 --> 00:07:29,480 thinking about have you maxed out the benefit in that position and is it time to move to 100 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:30,480 the next position? 101 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,080 So even if you're not moving institutions, it sounds to me like it's a great, it's always 102 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:40,000 great to assess and say I've been doing this for a long time, what's the next level and 103 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,720 am I the right person to bring this position to the next level? 104 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:45,480 So thank you for sharing that. 105 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:46,480 My pleasure. 106 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:47,480 Okay. 107 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:52,880 So I want to get into a story in my life where you were very crucial and I've talked about 108 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,240 it a couple of times on this podcast episode. 109 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,360 So my audience is somewhat familiar, but I got to a place in my career where I was ready 110 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:04,840 to quit medicine or at least I was ready to quit all of academia. 111 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,200 And we had a conversation, that was a very pivotal conversation. 112 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:12,360 And I have to say, I want to say that at the time that I was experiencing all these challenges, 113 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,760 I didn't think, oh, I have a mentor who at the time you were dean, I didn't think, oh, 114 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,880 I have a mentor who's dean of the college of pharmacy. 115 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:22,320 Why don't I go talk to her? 116 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,560 Because it didn't seem to me as if you, I mean, it was clinical medicine, but it became 117 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,140 really important and relevant because in your journey in academia, you've had challenges 118 00:08:31,140 --> 00:08:32,140 too. 119 00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:36,560 So you shared challenges with me that changed the way I thought about my challenges. 120 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:42,640 So the first question I want to ask you to speak to or answer is this whole concept of 121 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,720 mentoring across disciplines. 122 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:50,560 How should people really be thinking about their network of mentors, sponsors, and especially 123 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:58,400 in terms of thinking about the transdisciplinary mentorship or across professions? 124 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:04,320 So there are certain fundamental challenges that every discipline will face. 125 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,960 And it comes to a point in your journey or growth in your career where it's no longer 126 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:18,720 about the science or the fundamental knowledge of medicine or pharmacy, in my case, that 127 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:24,000 is determining what you're facing, that you call challenges. 128 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:30,280 And when we're able to sort of separate those two, your fundamental training as an MD versus 129 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:38,160 a PharmD or perhaps an engineer even, and the root cause of the challenges, which many 130 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:44,360 times are very different from the training, then you cease to see yourself as, oh, their 131 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:45,820 medicine, their pharmacy. 132 00:09:45,820 --> 00:09:54,920 You see yourselves as co-leaders growing on a ladder, and in each rung of those ladders, 133 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:59,280 there are challenges you are going to face that will be common all across the board, 134 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,660 regardless of whether you're a lawyer or what. 135 00:10:02,660 --> 00:10:10,000 And the trick is really your interactions with people and how successful you are with 136 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,840 that because IRN is going to be similar, right? 137 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:20,240 The challenges with offers, benefits, those kinds of things, the details might be different, 138 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,800 but how you approach those would likely be similar, right? 139 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:29,200 Then when you get to how to manage people in an organization, people are people are 140 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,620 people are people. 141 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:37,080 And if we knew people fully, there'll be no wars in the entire world, right? 142 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:38,900 But that's why we have to keep learning. 143 00:10:38,900 --> 00:10:43,400 That's why we have to keep sharpening our knowledge around dealing with conflict, dealing 144 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:50,360 with challenges, dealing with managing envy, sabotage, or the four horsemen, for example, 145 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,280 really just dealing with people. 146 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,400 It's people. 147 00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:00,080 And people challenges in every single institution is similar. 148 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:06,280 And so it's a matter of then separating that out and saying, hmm, what am I dealing with 149 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:07,280 here? 150 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,840 And as you, a physician, you try to diagnose what the situation, what's the people challenge 151 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,560 that I'm facing here. 152 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:19,720 And when you can identify what that people challenge is, then you can approach it with 153 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:27,000 the same way you would approach it, whether it be an engineering or lawyer fields that 154 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,280 presents itself because people are still people. 155 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,760 Yeah, no, that's really good. 156 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,280 It's really good because I think that we do think very siloed and there's this sense that, 157 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:39,280 well, you're not a physician. 158 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,580 You can't understand my problems. 159 00:11:41,580 --> 00:11:46,040 And yes, the details are different, but the general challenges are similar. 160 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:51,000 And so maybe this is a good time to speak about how should people be thinking about 161 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:56,040 curating their network of sponsors, of mentors, because I meet a lot of faculty who say, I 162 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:57,600 don't have a mentor. 163 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,520 And maybe what they're saying is I don't have a research mentor. 164 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:05,720 I don't have a mentor who's exactly my discipline, but nobody comes as far as you come without 165 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:06,720 mentors. 166 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,140 And so maybe speak to how should people be thinking about curating their networks of 167 00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:11,560 mentors and sponsors? 168 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:18,240 One of the advice that I give our students and anyone I get a chance to meet, young professionals, 169 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,280 is to have at least six to eight mentors. 170 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,600 What that means is you have to be able to build relationships. 171 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:28,920 If you can't build relationships, you're dead in the water because it's the people that 172 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:30,720 you interact with. 173 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:38,080 It's the people who care about you, the people who see your work, your growth that will eventually 174 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:46,000 choose to either guide you, show you where the stones are, so to speak, or say, oh, I 175 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,320 know this individual. 176 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:53,080 She's nice and she's very accommodating and she's brilliant and she would be good for 177 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,480 X or Y or Z. Those are your sponsors. 178 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:01,480 Those people who will speak to your capabilities when you can't be there. 179 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:07,880 But if you haven't already built that network over the years, then it won't be able to 180 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:09,920 serve you when you actually need them. 181 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:18,640 So the advice about curating those, to curate that network of mentors and sponsors is think 182 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:28,440 about everybody in front of you as a potential person who either you are meant to serve or 183 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,760 they might be there to serve you in the future. 184 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:37,000 If you see everybody in front of you and every relationship as critical, that there's a reason 185 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:42,480 for it, there's a purpose for it, you will be intentional about how you interact with 186 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,280 people generally. 187 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,720 Now you don't want to talk to folks because you think, oh, can you be my mentor? 188 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:53,220 I remember I was in that phase at one point in time and I thought, oh, I need a mentor 189 00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:57,560 and I was really desperate to try to get a mentor. 190 00:13:57,560 --> 00:14:01,880 And then I began to learn that that's not how it works. 191 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:08,640 In fact, most people are spooked by the word mentor because they feel like there is this 192 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:13,840 huge responsibility that they have to accomplish and they have these expectations. 193 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,860 And you know, academics too, we can layer on top of it. 194 00:14:17,860 --> 00:14:20,680 First month you do this, second month you do this, third month you do this, otherwise 195 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,280 you'll be evaluated and you're going to be, you know, maybe you've done a bad job. 196 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:29,320 And then people are just like, I'd rather have nothing to do with that. 197 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,240 My advice to many of the people that I've interacted with is just build relationships. 198 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:34,320 Don't label it. 199 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:35,520 Do not label it. 200 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,720 Don't put pressure on it. 201 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,740 It's almost like dating in many ways where the moment you start putting labels on things 202 00:14:41,740 --> 00:14:45,440 and things start falling apart, don't put a label on it. 203 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:46,440 Just build a relationship. 204 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:47,440 If it's happening, it's happening. 205 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,440 If it's not happening, it's not happening. 206 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:50,440 Don't worry about it. 207 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,080 I've had, I'm going to give a couple of examples. 208 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:59,520 One example, I had a meeting with the vice president and one of my institutions in the 209 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:01,720 past, and I hadn't even met her before. 210 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,760 This was the very first time I'd just been promoted to assistant dean and I was trying 211 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,660 to do a job and I needed to meet her to learn something to get the job done. 212 00:15:10,660 --> 00:15:17,840 And so I sat in her, in her office and she was about to share with me and give me insights 213 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,720 into the task and the project I was working on for the first 30 minutes of that meeting. 214 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:23,760 She's retired now. 215 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,700 For the first 30 minutes of that meeting, she was just downloading about how to be an 216 00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:32,920 executive and how to be successful as an executive female. 217 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:38,280 And I just took my notepad and my pen and I just kept writing pages and pages before 218 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,040 we even got down to business. 219 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:47,560 And that was the season when I actually was thinking about, oh, I need a mentor. 220 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:48,560 I need a mentor. 221 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:49,560 I never met her before. 222 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:53,720 I didn't even, I can't even remember her name now, but that was it. 223 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:58,400 That was the opening into here is information you've been looking for. 224 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,440 Now I'm a person of faith, so I had been praying about this, obviously, to say, Lord, please 225 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:05,440 help me. 226 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,920 And I remember that word that came, which was I am that I am. 227 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,200 I will be your mentor. 228 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:16,080 Now that sounds crazy, but that relaxed me to see that I needed to just open my mind 229 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,560 to understand that the people that I thought would be my best mentors or that would be 230 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,960 a best fit for me may not necessarily be the ones that will give me the information that 231 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,000 I needed. 232 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:32,400 And I tell you, after she was, she told me conferences I needed to attend, ways I need 233 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:36,000 to posture myself, how I needed to present. 234 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,000 I was full. 235 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:38,520 30 minutes, I was full. 236 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,120 Then we went to business, we were done. 237 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,280 Shortly after that, she retired. 238 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,560 We got maybe one other chance, I took out to lunch just so that I could learn some more. 239 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:54,520 Mentors, you have to notice and make sure you're serving them for them to serve you. 240 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,720 So you don't have a sense of expectation or entitlement. 241 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,080 They're giving you valued time. 242 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,040 So you have to think about that. 243 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,340 Can you take them out to coffee and have a conversation? 244 00:17:05,340 --> 00:17:08,480 You don't have to put too much, but learn about what they care about. 245 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,560 And then before you know it, they start sharing things that you need. 246 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:17,360 The second example that I will share, I was at a conference in Croatia and I was with 247 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:20,560 this colleague, friend is how I will call her. 248 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,000 She was a systems leader and she was also at that conference. 249 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,040 She's from Australia. 250 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,160 And we were supposed to go into a session and I had just gotten my role as dean and 251 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,880 I was just casually sharing the news that, oh, you know, that, you know, dean now and 252 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,160 so on and so forth. 253 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:42,320 Meanwhile, before that time I had met with, because it was a new role for me, I just randomly 254 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,360 five minutes would meet with people who I knew were deans and just ask them simple questions. 255 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:52,720 And I say, knowing what you know now, what do you wish you knew before becoming a dean? 256 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:59,740 And I tell you that opened up a whole set of tips and tricks that 20 deans were able 257 00:17:59,740 --> 00:18:00,740 to share with me. 258 00:18:00,740 --> 00:18:02,580 I'll just meet them casually one on one. 259 00:18:02,580 --> 00:18:06,560 That didn't require a whole mentoring protocol. 260 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,580 It was information that was going to solidify my foundation before getting into the deanship. 261 00:18:11,580 --> 00:18:15,400 And it was so valuable because there were 20 different deans, male, female, different 262 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,020 races, you know, that were sharing with me. 263 00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:20,120 And I valued that. 264 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:21,960 So back to the Croatia example. 265 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,480 So when I went there, I just, you know, told her, oh, this is going on and so on and so 266 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:26,480 forth. 267 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,940 Somebody I respect so much internationally known. 268 00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:31,600 And she said something. 269 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,680 And here's the trick about mentorship, right? 270 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,280 You have to know when it's about to happen and you have to be willing to sacrifice whatever 271 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:44,200 necessary to get what is about to happen and position yourself for what's about to happen 272 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:45,640 to you. 273 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,320 And so she said, we're about to go into the next session. 274 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,120 We're going to coffee break, you know, 15, 20 minute coffee break. 275 00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:53,520 We're about to go into the next session. 276 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,880 I said, would you like to take a few minutes and I could just spend some time with you? 277 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,920 And I was thinking like, what? 278 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:01,400 Yes, ma'am. 279 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:02,400 Absolutely. 280 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,120 And so I just stayed. 281 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,080 We were right there on a bistro table. 282 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:07,920 The session had resumed. 283 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,680 And I kid you not, we were there for at least an hour. 284 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:12,680 At least an hour. 285 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,520 She was willing to, let me tell you, if I had to pay for that session, I don't know 286 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,320 how much it would have cost, but she was willing. 287 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,040 Time and opportunity. 288 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,280 You have to know when it's happening and make sure your position to receive whatever is 289 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:25,400 there for you. 290 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:30,560 And I sat there and we stood initially, then we had to move a location to sit because it 291 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,360 was getting so good. 292 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:40,080 And for a whole hour, she just started downloading examples, experiences, how to, and she pretty 293 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,920 much laid the landscape, how people will approach me in my beginning weeks and so on and so 294 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,800 forth and how to not take the first impressions that you get from your new role. 295 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:51,760 Very valuable wisdom. 296 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:58,840 Eventually, she offered that because one of the tips they tell you is you technically 297 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,920 want to be careful about sharing details, particularly if you're in a decision-making 298 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:08,120 type of role like Adine, with individuals in the exact same institution you are because 299 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:09,200 it's going to spread. 300 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,180 People will talk about what you're saying to other people. 301 00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:15,680 And so being that she was in an institution that the likelihood of her knowing anybody 302 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:21,240 in the institution I was in was slim, it was a safer bet to have somebody like her. 303 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:22,980 And she offered herself. 304 00:20:22,980 --> 00:20:30,560 So 6 p.m., 7 p.m. in Eastern time was 9 a.m. or 8 a.m. early morning in Australia time. 305 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,520 And we will meet every other month just to debrief if there were any challenges that 306 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:40,160 I had, I could bring it to her and she would help tease it out based on her experience 307 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,480 because she'd been doing this a minute. 308 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:48,800 I am grateful, grateful to God for people like that who just offered their time. 309 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:54,420 And said that there are individuals who are available to mentor you for a fee and there's 310 00:20:54,420 --> 00:20:58,720 nothing wrong in that. 311 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:04,480 Value their time, respect their time, bring the questions you have to the session so that 312 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,840 you can get the value that you need. 313 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,300 I've had to do that as well, to have a coach type individual. 314 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:13,360 So it was almost like a coach slash mentor. 315 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:20,400 Because they've done the work right, they can help you tease out and really give you 316 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:25,040 the 10,000 foot view you need to have concerning what you're doing. 317 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,880 So I'm going to stop there, but it's a lot. 318 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,040 It's very important. 319 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:30,460 Make sure you have mentors. 320 00:21:30,460 --> 00:21:35,200 Make sure you are sensitive to when somebody is trying to give you wisdom. 321 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,560 Don't think you're smarter than anyone. 322 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:45,280 You'll be surprised what kinds of information is out there that can make your work go faster. 323 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,280 Thank you. 324 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,280 Thank you. 325 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:48,280 I got so much from what you said. 326 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:49,680 I just want to make some of those things explicit. 327 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:54,160 So one of the first things I got is the sense of not being desperate, not feeling like there's 328 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:55,800 only one person for you. 329 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,280 And so you go with that desperate energy to scare people out of your path. 330 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,600 It's just really thinking about the fact that you're cultivating relationships and you're 331 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,140 thinking in every relationship, how do I serve this person? 332 00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:09,000 This person may be here to serve me. 333 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,840 How do I meet my end of the bargain rate? 334 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:13,640 Because that's what I'm in control of. 335 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,560 And so really thinking of people as just how do I build good relationships? 336 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,280 And that takes the pressure off those, I need you to be my mentor. 337 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,880 And it allows you to be a more normal human. 338 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,200 You didn't say that, but that's what I got out of it. 339 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,680 And then the other thing that I also hear is that it seems as if people in these positions 340 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,680 are wanting to pour out. 341 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,160 And they're just looking for people who are open and available. 342 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,880 And I will want you to speak in a few minutes about whether that had anything to do with, 343 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,560 because you talked a lot about women, I heard. 344 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:50,240 And so I wonder if perhaps you had some male examples or whether there was a sense of this 345 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:55,680 person is kind of sharing the same experiences as me and therefore I feel like I really need 346 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:56,680 to invest. 347 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,000 So I wonder if there's some of that. 348 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:04,080 But it does sound like people who are in positions ahead of us, mentors that we're looking to, 349 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:05,800 are really looking to pour out into people. 350 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,480 And the moment they have opportunity, they want to do that. 351 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:14,320 And we have to be willing to recognize it and to be available to take advantage of that. 352 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,720 And then I think the third thing I heard you say is just the openness of mentoring can 353 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,720 happen in different ways. 354 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,040 And if you're just in a one track mind of it has to be a meeting with this person every 355 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:30,120 week, you may miss mentoring opportunities that may be one-off mentoring opportunities, 356 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:34,920 that may be invitations to have continued relationships of mentoring, but mentoring 357 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,800 can come in different formats and so people should stay open. 358 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,360 So you said a lot of things, but those are three things I wanted to say. 359 00:23:40,360 --> 00:23:44,360 And I don't know if he wanted to just reflect or share any thoughts that come from that. 360 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:45,840 I think that's concise. 361 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,120 That's very good. 362 00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:54,880 So the one thing you mentioned around whether individuals are open to mentoring, it depends. 363 00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:00,600 There's some folks who are at a stage in their life where they are ready to leave a legacy 364 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,960 and they're hoping to identify proteges that will be willing to take on the mantle, so 365 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,000 to speak, to take that baton and go to the next level. 366 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:17,720 And they will be intentional about identifying said individual or individuals to mentor in 367 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,880 a very deliberate way. 368 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:25,000 Maybe they're going to end up being the next VP or the next president or the next name 369 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:26,000 that title. 370 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:35,040 There are other folks who have that grace, so to speak, or skill set of just raising 371 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:36,720 leaders. 372 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,920 They know how to do it. 373 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:44,520 They identify potential leaders and they just pour in generously. 374 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:50,000 Not too many people are like that, but when you encounter one of those, just be grateful 375 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:55,700 and don't compare yourself with the other person who they might be mentoring as well. 376 00:24:55,700 --> 00:25:03,320 Because the historical way of succession planning has been there's one person who's going to 377 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,180 take over the company and then everybody is scrambling to be the one. 378 00:25:08,180 --> 00:25:12,520 And that creates envy and that creates a lot of toxicity in the environment. 379 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:18,840 I encourage leaders, my approach is really to share generously because you never know 380 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,680 who is going to apply the information that you are sharing. 381 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:29,780 But if you share generously, then every single person, it's like the tide that raises all 382 00:25:29,780 --> 00:25:32,160 boats, so to speak. 383 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:38,480 If everybody gets to the level of superstar leader, the organization benefits tremendously. 384 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:43,120 But if you pour and spend all your energy on one person and that person disappoints 385 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:48,440 you, then you've wasted your time in the sense that that person is not going to work out. 386 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,800 Now the organization is still where it was before. 387 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:59,160 So I encourage all leaders to have the mindset of raising leaders, period. 388 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:08,460 Now, when you get to the point of how do I begin to identify potential succession individuals 389 00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:17,200 you have to have a knack for talent and leaders have to observe and really be intentional 390 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:22,200 about encouraging individuals to attend more training. 391 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,440 Now you can offer someone training, but if they don't think they need training, then 392 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,440 they miss out. 393 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,200 So it's a very complex field if you think about it in that way. 394 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,320 You might see 10 people who have potential and you share with them and say, look, there's 395 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:44,000 this training opportunity in X institution that would like you to attend. 396 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,320 And the individuals, maybe only two of them attend. 397 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,880 Whereas you identify 10, guess what? 398 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:55,320 Those two have distinguished themselves to be at a different caliber than the ones that 399 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,760 you had identified though in the same class, so to speak. 400 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,440 Now that's one thing that many rising stars don't realize. 401 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,640 Follow instructions. 402 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,540 Listen to the leaders who've been there, done that and are telling you things. 403 00:27:10,540 --> 00:27:16,080 Even if you think it's minute and insignificant, there is a reason why they are sharing what 404 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,280 they're sharing with you. 405 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,280 I've learned that. 406 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:19,520 I've learned that. 407 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:25,200 And I take very seriously every single piece of advice that my mentors have provided me 408 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:26,200 over the years. 409 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:27,200 I write it down. 410 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,920 I go back before I go back to meet my mentor, whoever I've identified as a mentor, even 411 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,200 before they call themselves my mentor. 412 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,560 And I've seen that, look, here is something regular coming from this individual. 413 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,280 I make sure to be accountable. 414 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,480 I go back to them and I say, you told me during our last minute to read this book. 415 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:44,560 I read the book. 416 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:45,740 I thank you. 417 00:27:45,740 --> 00:27:50,360 This is what I learned from it so that they can see that the investment of time in my 418 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:52,960 life is worth it. 419 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:58,080 So that next time they would consider something else that they want to add value for me. 420 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,200 So I encourage mentors to think about that. 421 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,680 I mean mentees, excuse me. 422 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,080 You want to be a star mentee? 423 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,320 Listen to that mentor. 424 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,800 Hold yourself accountable before your next meeting. 425 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,480 Let them know what you have done since the last time. 426 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,960 Don't waste anybody's time. 427 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,240 Please don't tell them from the last time we met, you told me this, this, and this. 428 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,800 This is what's been going on. 429 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:20,920 This is what has happened. 430 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:21,920 This is what I've done differently. 431 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:26,240 I'm teaching my boys the same thing, you know, that when they meet with folks to make sure 432 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:33,240 that they follow the instructions that whoever is mentoring them is sharing with them. 433 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,600 Thank you. 434 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:36,600 Thank you. 435 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,120 That's really valuable and thank you for sharing so much wisdom. 436 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:46,040 I want you to talk about obstacles now because, you know, in my conversations with you over 437 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:51,800 the years and even in the last few years, you know, you seem to indicate that obstacles 438 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,800 are part of the course, they're part for the course. 439 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,240 And so where I think I felt like, oh my gosh, this is too hard. 440 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,280 It was like, oh yeah, this is the way it is. 441 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,240 Can you just speak to obstacles and the role that they have to play, especially the, I 442 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,000 don't want to say people obstacles because I mean, all obstacles really are, are really 443 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,120 about relationships, I think. 444 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,480 But can you speak to their role in our growth and development and how we should be looking 445 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:22,320 at them, especially for, for people who feel like this is not working and I want to quit? 446 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,080 Yeah. 447 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:31,040 So the obstacles that you face, they say, you know, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. 448 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:32,040 Yes. 449 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,080 Obstacles can help us build resilience. 450 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:40,920 It also helps us build experience and it helps us learn and that learning can eventually 451 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,840 become wisdom. 452 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:49,560 So for example, you face a situation, maybe it's a difficult employee, employer, peer, 453 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:57,240 whatever that is personality, and you're just wondering how in the world am I going to survive 454 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:02,440 with said individual in my life or in this job. 455 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,960 If you want to quit because of somebody, let me tell you, when you go to the next place, 456 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,080 you might find five people worse than that individual in that job that you think is better 457 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,660 than the one you have. 458 00:30:11,660 --> 00:30:14,960 Because during the interview, you're not going to know every single person you're trying 459 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,920 to interact with. 460 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:22,800 And so the approach that I have taken, particularly when it becomes people challenges is to try 461 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:32,360 to understand, seek to understand, try not to get sucked up in the emotional approach, 462 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:38,360 presentation of the individual triggers, try to focus on what's objective. 463 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,840 What are they trying to tell me? 464 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,560 What feedback are they giving me? 465 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:47,920 I remember a lady who many people in one of the organizations had been married when the 466 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,740 organization had said so many negative things about. 467 00:30:51,740 --> 00:30:57,560 And the feedback I received from the individual was valuable, so much so that it seemed like 468 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,600 they would always come off negative and so on and so forth. 469 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:08,520 And I just would think, okay, if this were 2% true, that's one of the things they tell 470 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,720 us in our coaching classes is think about the 2% truth instead of just writing off the 471 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,320 feedback you're receiving is what's the 2% truth here? 472 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:19,960 That way you're not taking it personal. 473 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,560 You're trying to be as objective as necessary. 474 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:29,480 And after looking at things in that way, I found that when we would have meetings, I 475 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,840 would ask the question, what could go wrong? 476 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:37,280 And I could count on this individual to name at least a few things that would go wrong 477 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,120 in the plan. 478 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,400 But what I also did was it allowed my plan to be better. 479 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:44,400 Why? 480 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:51,040 Because you have included the reasons for it to go wrong and you have come up with solutions 481 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,440 for those reasons for it to go wrong. 482 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:58,440 So next time you have what people consider a naysayer, they might be the ones that are 483 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,080 going to strengthen your plan the best. 484 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,620 So that way you've had the positive outlook of what your plan is, what could go right. 485 00:32:06,620 --> 00:32:08,800 This has such great potential. 486 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,120 That's good. 487 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,400 And then you look at it on the other side of things to see what could go wrong. 488 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,720 So that's where you start strengthening the risky parts of your plan. 489 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:20,720 And don't give up. 490 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,440 It's like, okay, what is the solution to that? 491 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,760 Well, the sky is going to fall and everybody, okay, how can we keep the sky from falling? 492 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:33,840 Or if the sky is going to fall anyway, how can we create, is it umbrellas or is it a 493 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:39,740 little shed to make sure everybody's protected, to think about the contingency plans to whatever 494 00:32:39,740 --> 00:32:41,520 it is that comes forth. 495 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,440 And it just makes you a better administrator because you've thought of it from the positive 496 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,200 extreme and you've planned through the negative extreme as well. 497 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,760 And in the process, you've included the ideas of the individuals. 498 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,400 And so it's a little bit more robust in terms of the plan that you have. 499 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:00,400 Wow. 500 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,400 Wow. 501 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:02,400 That's really, really powerful. 502 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,400 Thank you so much. 503 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:04,400 That's so insightful. 504 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,640 So here are a couple of things that come out for me. 505 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:13,320 But one is that I hear you saying that the agent who needs change is you. 506 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,960 Where if someone, even if they're so negative, is sharing something that's upsetting, it's 507 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,720 like, well, what are they saying that I can actually make use of? 508 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,160 And let's focus on that. 509 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,960 And where I think our tendency, at least I'll speak for myself, my tendency is to say, well, 510 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,080 look at the 98%, this person is clearly awful. 511 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,960 But to say, okay, well, this 2%, how do we use this to our advantage? 512 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:37,680 And so I hear you talking about opportunities to say, well, if someone is entirely negative, 513 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,440 how can you take advantage of that negativity to say, well, tell me all the negatives so 514 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:42,440 I can prepare? 515 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:43,440 Right? 516 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:49,680 And it's just, how do you best manage yourself so that you're able to really help people 517 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,720 serve you to their best advantage? 518 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,240 Whether other people might see it as negative, you're able to use the negative to your advantage. 519 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:57,240 That's amazing. 520 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:02,440 And I think that's an opportunity to grow, to be able to say, well, what can I take from 521 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,040 this person even if most of it feels like it's negative? 522 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,040 So that's one thing. 523 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:14,600 I think another thing that I hear you saying is kind of the importance of wanting all the 524 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,600 sides. 525 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,240 And so it's not wanting people who are always saying, well, great, everything is going great, 526 00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:25,440 but really soliciting, and sometimes you don't have to solicit it, it comes free of charge, 527 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,240 but soliciting feedback from people who do have negative things to say, because it allows 528 00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:35,960 you to really build a more realistic real world plan that is able to withstand either 529 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,560 extremes, the extremes of great or the extremes of not so great. 530 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,820 And then I think the third thing I heard you say is that, wow, if you think that you're 531 00:34:43,820 --> 00:34:48,000 having a challenge with someone in one place, you have to recognize that that person is 532 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,720 going to be at your next place, even if it's not that same person. 533 00:34:51,720 --> 00:34:55,160 And so you have to ask, well, how do I manage that person here? 534 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,820 So then I know I'm equipped to manage the other person there. 535 00:34:57,820 --> 00:35:02,980 But I also hear you saying in the background of that, do not quit a job because of a person, 536 00:35:02,980 --> 00:35:05,440 because that's not a great reason to do that. 537 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,760 Do you want to speak more about that? 538 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,400 Yeah, the question to ask is, what am I supposed to learn here? 539 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,200 What am I supposed to learn in this scenario? 540 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:20,560 I remember feeling that someone was trying to sabotage my work, at least that's the perception 541 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,280 that I had in one of the institutions I had. 542 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,320 That was the view that I had, and I had to go search. 543 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:31,160 How do you deal with saboteurs in an organization? 544 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:36,960 And the message from it, and I think it was HBR, one of those really wonderful newsletters 545 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,640 or so, was that you focus on your work. 546 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,660 Just stay focused on your work. 547 00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:47,800 Don't get sucked into what the person is doing or not doing or how they're trying to pull 548 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,600 things down, so to speak. 549 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:50,600 Just stay focused. 550 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:55,380 And when you get results, the results will speak for themselves. 551 00:35:55,380 --> 00:35:58,760 And that's what I've learned all through the years, and I've found that I've been able 552 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:08,080 to mentor individuals because of that experience that I've had, to say, don't get sucked in. 553 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,420 You focus on your work. 554 00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:11,420 Get the results. 555 00:36:11,420 --> 00:36:16,600 The results will speak. 556 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:17,600 That's one example. 557 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:18,600 No, it's good. 558 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:19,600 It's good, and thank you for sharing. 559 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,740 What I hear you talking about is the importance of self-management. 560 00:36:22,740 --> 00:36:24,140 That's so important. 561 00:36:24,140 --> 00:36:28,600 And being able to be self-aware enough to say, well, okay, well, maybe I think someone's 562 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,440 sabotaging my work instead of yelling at this person or saying, you saboteur, you. 563 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,320 Saying, well, how do people manage saboteurs? 564 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:36,760 Because this is not the first time. 565 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,320 Obviously, this is happening. 566 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,160 And being kind of aware enough to say, well, let me go find out information that helps 567 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,620 you grow so that the next time you face a saboteur, you're not thrown for a loop. 568 00:36:47,620 --> 00:36:48,620 You know what to do. 569 00:36:48,620 --> 00:36:53,780 So it's kind of the importance of focusing on what you control rather than the things 570 00:36:53,780 --> 00:36:54,780 you don't control. 571 00:36:54,780 --> 00:36:55,780 Absolutely. 572 00:36:55,780 --> 00:36:56,780 You could summarize it. 573 00:36:56,780 --> 00:36:57,780 You could write a book on this now. 574 00:36:57,780 --> 00:36:58,780 Thank you. 575 00:36:58,780 --> 00:36:59,780 Thank you. 576 00:36:59,780 --> 00:37:00,780 Thank you. 577 00:37:00,780 --> 00:37:03,460 No, it's really great. 578 00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:05,140 I feel like you have so many great points. 579 00:37:05,140 --> 00:37:09,780 And to be honest, there's so many more nuances to what you're saying. 580 00:37:09,780 --> 00:37:14,260 And yeah, but those are at least some of the highlights I want to highlight for my audience. 581 00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:15,260 Wow. 582 00:37:15,260 --> 00:37:19,460 So I want to first of all say thank you so much, President Tafare. 583 00:37:19,460 --> 00:37:23,820 Your time is so precious, and I appreciate that you spent it with me and my audience. 584 00:37:23,820 --> 00:37:29,140 And I do want to ask before we close the conversation though, what have we left on set? 585 00:37:29,140 --> 00:37:35,060 What is something that's important for early career faculty to be thinking about on their 586 00:37:35,060 --> 00:37:38,220 journey in academia? 587 00:37:38,220 --> 00:37:46,500 Be humble, be willing to learn, and don't discriminate against who can teach you. 588 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:52,020 Anybody can teach you, no matter their age, no matter their experience, no matter their 589 00:37:52,020 --> 00:37:55,220 gender or identity. 590 00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:56,980 Anybody can teach you. 591 00:37:56,980 --> 00:37:58,140 Be open. 592 00:37:58,140 --> 00:38:00,680 Just be open to learn. 593 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:05,860 And if you're open to learn, you're more likely to grow as fast as you'd be surprised what 594 00:38:05,860 --> 00:38:08,980 you can accomplish when you learn from people. 595 00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:11,260 That's what I've seen. 596 00:38:11,260 --> 00:38:17,260 It's those individuals who humble themselves, receive information from mentors or even just 597 00:38:17,260 --> 00:38:20,220 general advice, hallway advice. 598 00:38:20,220 --> 00:38:25,260 Remember the advice that I received where someone said, oh, you have to make sure you 599 00:38:25,260 --> 00:38:30,780 publish two papers every, at least two papers a year, right, to be able to qualify for professorship. 600 00:38:30,780 --> 00:38:33,060 And I was like, is that right? 601 00:38:33,060 --> 00:38:34,940 So I just stuck that in my brain. 602 00:38:34,940 --> 00:38:40,300 I don't think it's written anywhere in stone, but it's that general advice people give. 603 00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:48,460 And if you build your system to the point where you're very productive with publications, 604 00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:49,740 then people notice. 605 00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:51,380 The results will show. 606 00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:56,020 You wouldn't have to lobby for, I'm worth it, it's my time. 607 00:38:56,020 --> 00:38:59,180 The results will show, and then it becomes a slam dunk in the end. 608 00:38:59,180 --> 00:39:03,260 So there's a lot to be said, but I just wanted to wrap it up there. 609 00:39:03,260 --> 00:39:04,260 Yeah. 610 00:39:04,260 --> 00:39:05,260 No, thank you. 611 00:39:05,260 --> 00:39:06,260 Thank you, actually. 612 00:39:06,260 --> 00:39:07,260 I don't want you to wrap it up just yet. 613 00:39:07,260 --> 00:39:08,260 Okay. 614 00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:14,660 What might you say differently for people who identify as women? 615 00:39:14,660 --> 00:39:15,660 Yeah. 616 00:39:15,660 --> 00:39:22,820 So one of the things I've learned by attending conferences and listening to presentations 617 00:39:22,820 --> 00:39:28,500 about scholarly activity, growth, and just general leadership and advancement for females 618 00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:36,980 is that we as females tend to allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. 619 00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:46,740 Whereas our male counterparts are more likely to take risks and to allow the good to help 620 00:39:46,740 --> 00:39:47,820 spur them along. 621 00:39:47,820 --> 00:39:56,380 So for example, if there were a job out there that a female looked at it and said, well, 622 00:39:56,380 --> 00:39:57,820 I'm not quite 80%. 623 00:39:57,820 --> 00:40:01,620 I can't do, you know, I'm maybe just 60% of this. 624 00:40:01,620 --> 00:40:07,820 You'll feel comfortable taking the job or applying for the job if she feels like, yeah, 625 00:40:07,820 --> 00:40:09,580 I can do about 80% of this. 626 00:40:09,580 --> 00:40:10,580 Let's go for it. 627 00:40:10,580 --> 00:40:12,140 Whereas a guy will say, 60%? 628 00:40:12,140 --> 00:40:13,180 Ah, let's go. 629 00:40:13,180 --> 00:40:14,180 Let's go. 630 00:40:14,180 --> 00:40:19,940 And then we find, and I'm not trying to overgeneralize, yes, there are equity issues out there and 631 00:40:19,940 --> 00:40:23,980 there's so much that needs to be fixed with pay and all that good stuff. 632 00:40:23,980 --> 00:40:29,600 But there are some observations that I have seen even as a leader for how females approach 633 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:31,440 offers. 634 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:36,060 Not many females negotiate, even the smart ones. 635 00:40:36,060 --> 00:40:45,300 Whereas some guys who may not even have the same expertise as same female believe in that 636 00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:47,260 they deserve more. 637 00:40:47,260 --> 00:40:48,260 Why is that? 638 00:40:48,260 --> 00:40:49,980 I don't have an answer. 639 00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:53,740 It's just my observation from my few years of leadership. 640 00:40:53,740 --> 00:40:59,100 So I want to encourage our females out there is to believe in yourself. 641 00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:02,860 Talk to somebody who has gone ahead of you. 642 00:41:02,860 --> 00:41:08,900 Have them coach you through what to be asking for and what to expect and what to say and 643 00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:10,740 what not to say. 644 00:41:10,740 --> 00:41:14,220 Simple advice somebody gave me is don't take the first offer that's out there, regardless 645 00:41:14,220 --> 00:41:16,100 of whether you think it's a good one. 646 00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:17,100 Don't. 647 00:41:17,100 --> 00:41:22,100 And that can be scary sometimes, but I just learned that through listening to people who've 648 00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:23,580 gone through. 649 00:41:23,580 --> 00:41:28,260 And then I strongly encourage females that you should have male mentors. 650 00:41:28,260 --> 00:41:29,860 I'm not saying you shouldn't have female mentors. 651 00:41:29,860 --> 00:41:33,580 Make sure that part of your suite of six to eight that you have male mentors. 652 00:41:33,580 --> 00:41:37,620 There's a different way that guys look at things. 653 00:41:37,620 --> 00:41:40,660 Sometimes as females we get sucked in the emotion around it. 654 00:41:40,660 --> 00:41:44,780 It makes us really good leaders actually is what I've observed. 655 00:41:44,780 --> 00:41:48,220 But there are times when you just have to do it and just have to go. 656 00:41:48,220 --> 00:41:56,220 One guy asked me this question and he said, if you didn't have to worry about anything, 657 00:41:56,220 --> 00:42:00,300 what would you do? 658 00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:02,940 I wrote it on a little sticky note. 659 00:42:02,940 --> 00:42:08,620 I put it in front of my computer and I look at it every day. 660 00:42:08,620 --> 00:42:13,260 If you didn't have to worry about anything, what would you do? 661 00:42:13,260 --> 00:42:16,660 As females many times we have the guilt problem. 662 00:42:16,660 --> 00:42:17,660 Guilt. 663 00:42:17,660 --> 00:42:24,860 We are the most sacrificial individuals I know, or species I know, and still we're feeling 664 00:42:24,860 --> 00:42:26,140 guilty about it. 665 00:42:26,140 --> 00:42:30,060 It's just amazing. 666 00:42:30,060 --> 00:42:35,420 If you have somebody to say, that's why you need those people to help keep you objective 667 00:42:35,420 --> 00:42:37,500 to say, look, look at what you're doing. 668 00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:38,500 You're amazing. 669 00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:39,600 You're doing fantastic over here. 670 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,500 This is what you need to do next. 671 00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:45,340 That individual who asked me that question was a male. 672 00:42:45,340 --> 00:42:53,340 I looked at him and after looking at that question I saw that he was trying to say that 673 00:42:53,340 --> 00:42:55,260 I was holding myself back. 674 00:42:55,260 --> 00:43:01,020 The worst challenge, the worst obstacle we have as females is ourselves. 675 00:43:01,020 --> 00:43:06,540 Let me tell you, if I were to talk to my younger self, and that's why I spend a lot of time 676 00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:10,780 with younger people is don't be so hard on yourself. 677 00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:17,260 I told a lady yesterday, a very young lady I have respect for, she's finishing up her 678 00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:18,260 undergraduate. 679 00:43:18,260 --> 00:43:19,260 Brilliant lady. 680 00:43:19,260 --> 00:43:24,340 She's going to graduate a four-year program in under four years and she's still hard 681 00:43:24,340 --> 00:43:25,340 on herself. 682 00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:28,340 I said, honey, don't be so hard on yourself. 683 00:43:28,340 --> 00:43:32,180 I know your type because I'm like that too. 684 00:43:32,180 --> 00:43:34,420 So hard on myself, have high expectations of myself. 685 00:43:34,420 --> 00:43:35,980 I said, don't be so hard. 686 00:43:35,980 --> 00:43:36,980 You're brilliant. 687 00:43:36,980 --> 00:43:38,600 You're a superstar. 688 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:44,980 We need more people to remind ourselves, to remind our females that they're superstars. 689 00:43:44,980 --> 00:43:52,100 One of the things I've had to do even as a president is I was sharing this with some 690 00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:53,460 of my female presidents. 691 00:43:53,460 --> 00:43:58,340 I'm a member of a women president's organization and they had come to my college. 692 00:43:58,340 --> 00:43:59,660 They spent time with my students. 693 00:43:59,660 --> 00:44:01,380 It was such a delightful time. 694 00:44:01,380 --> 00:44:04,820 They poured into them and the students were asking questions. 695 00:44:04,820 --> 00:44:06,500 It was just heaven on earth. 696 00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:08,500 It was beautiful. 697 00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:14,460 One of the things that we were sharing at one point, I said, sometimes with us females, 698 00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:16,100 we're the hardest on ourselves. 699 00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:21,260 You're like Wonder Woman Plus over there and still you think you're a zero. 700 00:44:21,260 --> 00:44:24,060 Seriously? 701 00:44:24,060 --> 00:44:28,080 Sometimes you have to actually type down, and I remember having to do this exercise 702 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,060 at one point, the feedback that people had given me that were positive. 703 00:44:32,060 --> 00:44:37,600 I typed it down on one of my notes and started with the words, you are. 704 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,620 You are one of the most powerful first words. 705 00:44:39,620 --> 00:44:44,700 You can put anything you put after that, negative or positive, can have significant impact. 706 00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:48,100 So try and find something positive after that. 707 00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:49,100 You are amazing. 708 00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:50,100 Okay. 709 00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:51,420 What did so and so say about you? 710 00:44:51,420 --> 00:44:52,700 So and so say you're a good cook. 711 00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:53,700 Okay, put it there. 712 00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:54,780 So and so say you're a good leader. 713 00:44:54,780 --> 00:44:55,780 Put it down. 714 00:44:55,780 --> 00:44:59,980 Write the list of everything people have told you because we are also not the ones that 715 00:44:59,980 --> 00:45:01,580 tend to give ourselves good self-talk. 716 00:45:01,580 --> 00:45:03,460 We're not. 717 00:45:03,460 --> 00:45:04,460 Not usually. 718 00:45:04,460 --> 00:45:07,900 So write down everything people have said, even the ones you didn't believe. 719 00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:08,900 Just write it down. 720 00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:09,900 Make a list. 721 00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:13,140 Keep making that list until you feel like you've captured everything people have been 722 00:45:13,140 --> 00:45:17,660 telling you that you are this, you are that, the positive things. 723 00:45:17,660 --> 00:45:19,180 Put it down there. 724 00:45:19,180 --> 00:45:27,660 And then on the day when you think the hurricane has hit and the tornado came through town 725 00:45:27,660 --> 00:45:32,620 and career-wise, journey-wise, whatever you want to call it, it looks like, ooh, it's 726 00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:34,100 one of those days. 727 00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:36,060 Go back to your notes. 728 00:45:36,060 --> 00:45:37,700 Read through it. 729 00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:38,700 See what it says. 730 00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:42,900 Remind yourself of who you are. 731 00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:48,220 And that should bring a burst of joy and a burst of confidence and a burst of positivity 732 00:45:48,220 --> 00:45:49,220 into your life. 733 00:45:49,220 --> 00:45:53,820 I also encourage females to make sure everybody actually needs this. 734 00:45:53,820 --> 00:45:55,260 Make sure you have a stress toolkit. 735 00:45:55,260 --> 00:46:00,860 Make sure you have a sunshine folder where you can put positive things to help push you 736 00:46:00,860 --> 00:46:05,620 through those obstacles, those challenges, those bad days. 737 00:46:05,620 --> 00:46:07,500 Bad days will come. 738 00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:08,500 The storm comes. 739 00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:10,700 The rain comes. 740 00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:13,260 Summer comes. 741 00:46:13,260 --> 00:46:17,140 Summer comes. 742 00:46:17,140 --> 00:46:19,580 And the sun will shine again. 743 00:46:19,580 --> 00:46:23,900 Wow, President Tawthani, thank you so much. 744 00:46:23,900 --> 00:46:25,860 It's been such a pleasure talking with you. 745 00:46:25,860 --> 00:46:27,980 I appreciate you sharing your insights. 746 00:46:27,980 --> 00:46:29,460 I mean, just so much. 747 00:46:29,460 --> 00:46:31,420 So much I still want to ask you. 748 00:46:31,420 --> 00:46:32,900 But we're going to wrap up the show. 749 00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:35,540 I'm going to allow you to go on to your next thing. 750 00:46:35,540 --> 00:46:39,780 But I want to thank you so much for being on the show and just for your words of wisdom. 751 00:46:39,780 --> 00:46:40,980 Thanks for being here. 752 00:46:40,980 --> 00:46:42,340 Thank you for having me. 753 00:46:42,340 --> 00:46:44,060 It's my pleasure. 754 00:46:44,060 --> 00:46:48,700 Well, for every member of our audience, thank you so much for listening. 755 00:46:48,700 --> 00:46:49,700 We look forward to... 756 00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:53,740 I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast. 757 00:46:53,740 --> 00:46:55,580 Thank you for listening. 758 00:46:55,580 --> 00:46:56,580 Thank you. 759 00:46:56,580 --> 00:46:57,580 Okay, don't go anywhere. 760 00:46:57,580 --> 00:46:58,580 Not yet. 761 00:46:58,580 --> 00:47:11,300 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast where academic 762 00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:16,700 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 763 00:47:16,700 --> 00:47:18,060 have a mentor. 764 00:47:18,060 --> 00:47:24,060 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 765 00:47:24,060 --> 00:47:25,940 Someone else needs to hear it. 766 00:47:25,940 --> 00:47:29,980 So take a minute right now and share it. 767 00:47:29,980 --> 00:47:35,460 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 768 00:47:35,460 --> 00:47:41,580 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.