1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,100 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,100 --> 00:01:03,160 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,320 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you 14 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:08,320 today. 15 00:01:08,320 --> 00:01:10,400 Thank you so much for tuning in. 16 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:17,280 I want to give a shout out to those who are suffering from the ravages of the storm that 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,280 came through this weekend. 18 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:26,280 I hope that you are alive and healthy and well and safe, and for those who have had 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:34,880 damage from the storms or have had any loss of property or family, I just want to let 20 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:42,520 you know that I'm sending you my well wishes and hoping for a good outcome for all that 21 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,640 has happened. 22 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,320 So I want to thank everyone for listening. 23 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,160 Thank you all for tuning in today. 24 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:57,640 Today I want to talk about the things that we can't make excuses about. 25 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,600 And I have to say, as I say the title of the podcast episode, I think, hmm, will this be 26 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:02,600 the final version? 27 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:04,320 I'm not sure. 28 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:10,160 But the reason I have this particular episode in mind is because I just came back from a 29 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,800 conference and it was a non...well, I can't say it was a non-medical conference because 30 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,880 it really was for women physicians specifically. 31 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:29,840 And it was the Wealthy You conference that was hosted by Dr. Latifat Akintade of MoneyFitMD. 32 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:35,280 And it was a gathering in Atlanta, well, at least close to Atlanta, and it really was 33 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,600 a weekend really focused on topics and issues regarding building wealth. 34 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:45,160 And what was awesome is that we didn't just talk about building wealth financially. 35 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,680 We talked about the importance of building wealth socially, relationally, and through 36 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,000 the kind of life that we live. 37 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,000 And so she talked about three, actually four kinds of assets. 38 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:00,480 One, you know, we all think about the fact that we should buy assets and assets put money 39 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:05,180 in your pocket if you remember, or it's dad, poor dad versus liabilities, right? 40 00:03:05,180 --> 00:03:07,160 So buying assets is important. 41 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:13,280 But what Latifat talked about was the importance of being an asset, recognizing that you are 42 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:14,280 the asset, right? 43 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:19,480 You're the income generating asset and how important it is to protect that asset that 44 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:20,800 is you. 45 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:26,400 And then the other thing is building a life that is an asset and then creating assets 46 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:27,780 as well. 47 00:03:27,780 --> 00:03:34,720 So while I think a lot of people focus on wealth building as buying assets, it really 48 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:39,160 is important to think of yourself first as the asset and then the life you're living 49 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:44,640 or the life you're creating as the asset and the opportunities you have to create assets. 50 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,820 So it's a really, really powerful experience. 51 00:03:47,820 --> 00:03:52,040 But what it led me to think about, because I'm not really talking about finances today, 52 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,840 is I think about all the things we didn't learn in medical school or in residency or 53 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:58,640 fellowship training. 54 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:04,520 So for many of us who went through the process, we will hear said over and over again that 55 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,360 we were not taught about the business side of medicine. 56 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,920 On this podcast, I talk a lot about how we are really not exposed to research. 57 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,480 And so what is the expectation that you're going to succeed as a researcher where you 58 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,640 have not actually had the research training and now in your life you're not given the 59 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,560 space to learn the research skills? 60 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:32,200 And one thing I'm discovering, especially as I'm expanding my horizons, is that, wow, 61 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,400 we are not taught very much else as clinicians. 62 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:41,240 Okay, let's just respect our training here and respect the fact that we are taught to 63 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,620 be excellent clinicians. 64 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:49,140 And I have to say that by the time we are done with our training, we are pretty good. 65 00:04:49,140 --> 00:04:54,900 And I know it can't be universal because everybody, you know, we have different challenges in 66 00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:55,900 different spaces. 67 00:04:55,900 --> 00:04:58,280 But let's just say we learn a lot. 68 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:06,180 And at the very end of our training, we are so focused on, so focused on clinical work 69 00:05:06,180 --> 00:05:09,400 that we really haven't learned much else. 70 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:14,000 If we're going to own our own practices, we haven't learned to run those practices. 71 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,880 If we're going to do research, we haven't learned to, you know, lead those research 72 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,080 teams. 73 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:25,960 If we're going to do anything else besides doctoring, wow, we haven't learned very much. 74 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,480 And this is not for judgment. 75 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,360 It is not for shame. 76 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:34,080 It's just to say that, wow, learning clinical medicine, learning how to care for patients 77 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:38,100 is time-intensive, and it really sucks up everything. 78 00:05:38,100 --> 00:05:44,240 And so for those of us who came to medicine after another career, we realized that there 79 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,560 was so much more to life beyond medicine, right? 80 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,300 Actually all of us came to medicine from a different career. 81 00:05:51,300 --> 00:05:53,720 Maybe we were students and we came to medicine. 82 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,840 I know that we were students, continuing to be students while we were in medicine, but 83 00:05:57,840 --> 00:06:00,040 it was a different trajectory, right? 84 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,800 So if your friends had summers, you did not. 85 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:09,040 Your colleagues started earning money very early, you did not. 86 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:14,360 So definitely there's like, you know, you go in a different direction in medical school 87 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:19,760 that you were not in or a direction you were not going in when you started. 88 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,840 And so clearly for many of us, we came to medicine as full-grown adults. 89 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,680 And even though we didn't have a career, we at least had a full life before we came to 90 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:28,680 medicine. 91 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:34,320 And then we go into medicine and it feels as if medicine just sucks up everything. 92 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:35,840 Clinical medicine does at least. 93 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:41,920 And if we are going to have any meaningful experiences outside of clinical medicine, 94 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,960 wow, we have to give time, energy, and attention to these things. 95 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,280 And that is what I'm here to talk about today. 96 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:54,320 The importance of broadening our horizons so that we are not just very focused, so focused 97 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:55,320 on clinical medicine. 98 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:56,320 Okay. 99 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,520 I'm going to talk today about seven areas in which you really do need to broaden your 100 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,320 focus and not just be focused on clinical medicine. 101 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:11,540 And I think this is so important because we are taking advantage of sometimes in many 102 00:07:11,540 --> 00:07:14,200 arenas because of lack of knowledge. 103 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,880 And unfortunately, many times we're so busy and it's like, well, I'm too busy. 104 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,960 Can you take care of that for me? 105 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:27,080 And that would be okay if the people we're asking to take care of things for us are trustworthy 106 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,440 or have our best interests at heart. 107 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,000 But many times, let's just say it's not that they're malicious. 108 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,220 It's just that nobody cares about our business like we care about our business. 109 00:07:37,220 --> 00:07:43,640 So I just want to talk about seven places in which we could absolutely expand our experience. 110 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,740 And perhaps I'll talk a little bit about how you might do that. 111 00:07:46,740 --> 00:07:52,000 So the very first thing I'm going to talk about obviously is research. 112 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,920 So this is the Clinician Researcher podcast, right? 113 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,920 And so I'm very big on research. 114 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:02,300 I also recognize that when I say research, I do mean research and it could be basic science 115 00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:05,480 research or health services research or clinical research. 116 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,920 There's so many options, qualitative research. 117 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:14,840 But what I'm talking about really is the bigger focus of scholarship and the importance of 118 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,280 scholarship as clinicians, right? 119 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:23,320 And in reality, sometimes we're so focused on our work clinically that there isn't room 120 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,520 for scholarship of any kind. 121 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,840 And it is a problem. 122 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,920 And I know, I know, just hear me out. 123 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,520 Don't judge me just yet. 124 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:40,040 It's a problem because if all we're doing is focused on doing, the reality is that the 125 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,760 data, the evidence for the work we're doing is changing. 126 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:49,600 And if we are not paying attention, then the evidence is moving forward while our clinical 127 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,080 practice is staying the same. 128 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:57,680 And so scholarship is important, not just to the extent to which we contribute to scholarship, 129 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:04,100 and that's important as well, because in contributing, we have to apply ourselves to understand more, 130 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:07,760 but also in consuming scholarship as well. 131 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,960 And honestly, for those of us who try to get CMEs completed at the end of the year, if 132 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,720 we're not doing it consistently throughout the year, you realize that sometimes it's 133 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,080 just you're scrambling to get the education in. 134 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:26,620 And what's realistic is to get the education in routinely as part of your normal practice. 135 00:09:26,620 --> 00:09:31,520 And so if you're looking up data routinely as part of your constant practice, that is 136 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:33,840 a form of scholarship that helps advance you. 137 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:38,640 It helps you take better care of your patients because you're keeping track of the evidence. 138 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,880 So that's like, to me, the bare minimum of involvement in scholarship is that you are 139 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:49,600 at least learning enough to keep your practice moving forward with the current data, the 140 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:50,860 current evidence. 141 00:09:50,860 --> 00:09:53,120 So that's kind of, I think, the bare minimum. 142 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:58,800 And then all the way to the other extreme is where research is really the major part 143 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:00,200 of your practice. 144 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:05,000 And I recommend that because research is a full-time job. 145 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:09,160 And to be honest, anything short of full-time research is part-time research. 146 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:14,280 And you know how you do on a part-time job, you make a part-time income. 147 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:20,240 So it's that if you really want a fully-fledged research program, it is hard to get there 148 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:27,440 on a part-time schedule, especially if you've not really had the training and research as 149 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,180 your PhD colleagues. 150 00:10:29,180 --> 00:10:32,640 And so if you're going to be someone who's going to be leading in research, leading in 151 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,240 scholarship, you do need to create space for it. 152 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,820 And the very beginning of that is learning research methodology, partnering with people 153 00:10:40,820 --> 00:10:45,960 who have the research methodology expertise so that you can bring your clinical expertise 154 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,320 and add synergy to the team. 155 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:54,100 And so for those of us who are pursuing this track as research scientists, in addition 156 00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:59,580 to being clinicians, it is an ongoing struggle to grow the skills that you really didn't 157 00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:02,700 learn in your clinical training. 158 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:08,880 And it's important to be strategic about learning what you need, but also partnering with those 159 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:14,000 who already have the knowledge but are looking for a clinical partner in their research endeavors. 160 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,040 Now, you have to be careful because it depends on what you want to do. 161 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:22,820 If you want to lead a research program, then you have to really gather the skills for leadership. 162 00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:26,600 If you're just looking to participate, oh, there are so many people who would love to 163 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:31,400 have you participate in one way or the other, but you do want to have enough knowledge so 164 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,760 you can be a full-fledged participant really contributing significantly. 165 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:36,760 Okay. 166 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:41,480 So the first thing that I think is important for clinicians to use to broaden their scope 167 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,440 beyond just their clinical work is research. 168 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:45,440 Okay. 169 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:46,880 Number two is finances. 170 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:51,760 So yes, I did talk about coming from a financial conference, and so finances are pretty much 171 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,840 top of mind right now. 172 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:59,520 And I have to say that I'm speaking, again, in general about finances. 173 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:04,560 And so I hope that we learn to manage money before we went into medical school. 174 00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:09,720 For many of us, though, we didn't really know very much, right, because we went through 175 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,720 education to the next...one educational level to the next educational level. 176 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:18,360 And for many of us, we didn't even really have a chance to have a job. 177 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,160 Now if you went straight through medical school and you supported your medical school with 178 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:28,640 loans, then you were probably also taking up loans to pay for medical school. 179 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,040 And maybe you had some financial training at the time, but probably not, because it's 180 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:34,520 not part of our clinical training. 181 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:39,280 And yeah, people are willing to borrow you a lot of money, but not necessarily give you 182 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,820 the tools to manage that money wisely. 183 00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:47,160 And so here we are on the other side of our training, and we do need to know how to manage 184 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,440 finances. 185 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,900 We need to know how to manage finances if we need a clinical unit. 186 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:57,440 And so yes, we might have an MBA who is working with us to be able to manage the financial 187 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,760 unit, but it is so important for us to be educated as well. 188 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:06,280 And so I know physicians who've gone on and got MBAs or who've gone on and done some additional 189 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,640 financial certification, and that's great. 190 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,120 But whatever you do, you need financial knowledge. 191 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,680 You need financial knowledge in your personal life, right? 192 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:19,200 You need financial knowledge if you're leading a division. 193 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,500 You need financial knowledge. 194 00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:25,980 If you're leading a research program, because budgets and administering the funds that you've 195 00:13:25,980 --> 00:13:28,540 received are part of that process. 196 00:13:28,540 --> 00:13:32,140 And then you need financial knowledge for your life, for wealth building, for retirement 197 00:13:32,140 --> 00:13:38,560 planning, because as a clinician, you have come to the game later than your peers, right? 198 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:42,680 There are people who graduated with you from high school who've already made a million 199 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:45,520 or two, right, in their retirement funds. 200 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,920 And you are maybe a little bit behind them. 201 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:52,240 Perhaps you've caught up already, but you need to understand strategy to say, well, 202 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,080 how do I make up for the lost time? 203 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,960 Oh, that's not really taught in our clinical training. 204 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,740 And again, that's okay, because clinical training is not supposed to teach you that. 205 00:14:01,740 --> 00:14:06,140 But what it's supposed to help you recognize is that, okay, well, this is an area in which 206 00:14:06,140 --> 00:14:09,700 you are lacking in a skill. 207 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:14,680 And that's okay, because you are great at learning new skills. 208 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:18,660 And those skills do really need to continue to be built up. 209 00:14:18,660 --> 00:14:25,580 And so financial training, financial education is an important component of our lives, no 210 00:14:25,580 --> 00:14:27,420 matter what we do. 211 00:14:27,420 --> 00:14:32,280 Whether we stay in the clinical space only, or we branch out and do different things like 212 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:39,220 administration or research leadership, finances are so, so important. 213 00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:46,880 And I want to just recommend that we think about how can I go get the financial education 214 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,840 that I need? 215 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:49,840 Okay. 216 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:52,200 Next to that is business education. 217 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:58,280 Okay, so I don't want to lump financial education and business education together. 218 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,080 They do go together clearly, but they're different. 219 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,680 So for those of us who are thinking, okay, well, we want to go maybe establish our own 220 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,820 practice or be part of a practice, understanding business principles or entrepreneurial principles 221 00:15:10,820 --> 00:15:12,660 are so important. 222 00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:16,860 To be honest, entrepreneurial principles show up in research as well. 223 00:15:16,860 --> 00:15:23,200 Because for example, I think the easy connection is basic science research. 224 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,800 Let's say you've been working on this molecule that has therapeutic properties, right? 225 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:32,740 You finally get to a point in your research where, oh, this looks promising. 226 00:15:32,740 --> 00:15:36,440 The preliminary data shows that perhaps it could go to clinical trials. 227 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:47,280 Okay, well, how do you take a molecule that is now showing promise and take it to where 228 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,440 it is commercially viable? 229 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,020 And you may be like, that's not my problem. 230 00:15:51,020 --> 00:15:54,480 My problem is just to do the work in the lab. 231 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:55,960 But how do you do that? 232 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,960 If you want to, do you have the knowledge? 233 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:05,240 And again, I'm not asking you to drop everything and go find our entrepreneurial education, 234 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,640 go get entrepreneurial education or go get a business education. 235 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:10,320 I'm not saying that. 236 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:15,840 I'm just saying that as part of your clinical work, there are opportunities to understand 237 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,400 entrepreneurship, to understand business principles. 238 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:25,360 And yeah, we didn't learn them in our clinical training, but holy cow, it is kind of important. 239 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:30,880 Because when we go and we're advocating for things that we need, whether clinically or 240 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:35,320 in the research space, many of the times we're talking to business people. 241 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:36,320 They're MBAs. 242 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,880 They're running our organizations, whether we like them or we don't like them. 243 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,960 For whatever reason, we may or may not like them, but there they are. 244 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,600 They're the people with the financial background. 245 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,000 They're the people with the business degrees. 246 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,600 They're running your unit. 247 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:57,160 And once in a while, you're going to need to talk to them, especially if you're moving 248 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:58,480 into leadership in any way. 249 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,600 If you're leading large grants, wow, it matters. 250 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,200 If you're leading a division or you're leading a department or maybe you even want to be 251 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,920 dean, wow, you got to deal with these people. 252 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,840 And if you're going to, and I don't mean these people like, oh my gosh, those people, but 253 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:18,320 just you got to deal with people who are business savvy, who think in business terms, who think 254 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,960 of people as units producing dollars. 255 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,920 And this is no judgment of them. 256 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,640 It's just, that's the what they've been brought up to. 257 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,060 They've been brought to think that way. 258 00:17:29,060 --> 00:17:32,320 And so when they look at your unit and they're like, well, I don't understand why none of 259 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,480 these doctors are making any money. 260 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:41,560 Can we fire some of them? 261 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,840 You need to understand that they think differently from you. 262 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:51,960 And if you had the language to be able to talk to these business oriented people, you 263 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:57,740 might be able to make a bigger impact than if you just went there whining and complaining. 264 00:17:57,740 --> 00:18:06,160 If you understand the language of pro forma or making a case and looking at the profit 265 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:12,100 and the loss, you may be able to get through to them a little bit more efficiently compared 266 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:14,400 to if you just came and said, this is horrible. 267 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,480 The way you're treating patients is the wrong thing. 268 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,480 You're going to burn for this. 269 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,240 Oh my goodness, I'm getting carried away. 270 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:27,480 But you know, it's very emotional because we really care about our patients. 271 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,040 We are here to take care of our patients. 272 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,400 And for many of us, the way we've been brought up in medicine, we're ready to die to care 273 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:34,400 for patients. 274 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,320 Please don't die to care for patients. 275 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,320 I want you to live another day to care for patients. 276 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:44,760 Well, I'm saying that we are very oriented towards patient care and not really considering 277 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,920 the business of medicine. 278 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,680 And unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on what way you want to look at it, the business 279 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:54,680 of medicine drives our experience of medicine. 280 00:18:54,680 --> 00:19:01,440 Now, I recognize that I'm talking, I think, to mostly clinicians who are doing research. 281 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,000 And so you may be like, oh, the business of medicine is not my problem. 282 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,320 But that already you know is a fallacy, right? 283 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,360 The business of medicine, whether you get money through grant funding or you get money 284 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:16,480 through clinical work, or you get money through a dedicated educational activity, or you get 285 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:21,600 money through administrative work that you do or for your administrative work, money 286 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:22,600 is money. 287 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,280 And institutions, businesses run on money. 288 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:34,680 And so it is important for you to understand business principles so that you can have good 289 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:40,520 conversations that are effective and help you advocate well for the people that you 290 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,400 work with or for the groups that you lead and you serve. 291 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,200 Okay, so there you go. 292 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,640 We talked about business knowledge. 293 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:57,800 The other knowledge that I think is so important is managerial knowledge. 294 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:03,400 Okay, so this I separate from leadership, because to be honest, physician training is 295 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,600 leadership, right? 296 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:10,840 You are leading, you are standing up and saying, I think this patient has a diabetic foot ulcer, 297 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,400 I believe we should get a CT scan, let's have the transport person come and get the patient 298 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:21,040 to take them to the CT to have a look at those, those to take, you know, look at the legs, 299 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,000 let's make sure ortho is called, you're leading a team. 300 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,280 And usually you're leading a multidisciplinary team, especially as you rise up in your training. 301 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,400 So leadership really is a part of clinician training is something we've done a lot of. 302 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:42,680 And so I don't, I didn't list leadership there, but I did list management, management of people 303 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:43,680 and relationships. 304 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,720 Ooh, very, very challenging. 305 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,200 That is something we're not necessarily taught managing the people side of things. 306 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:57,760 So yes, we've led, we've, you know, we've, we've, we've led teams, we've done so successfully. 307 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,120 We've led teams to be able to care for patients. 308 00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:05,840 We've led families to be able to come to difficult conclusions, but what we haven't learned is 309 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,800 how to manage people and what we begin to recognize in our roles, in our clinical roles. 310 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:12,800 Wow. 311 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,280 We're managing relationships with nursing staff or allied health staff, or perhaps it's 312 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,680 your advanced practice provider. 313 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,400 You're managing those relationships. 314 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,480 And many a physician have I heard from who said, I had no idea. 315 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:28,480 They were so upset. 316 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,360 In fact, I've had, I've had issues too, where I was like, oh, really? 317 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:33,720 They were mad and complaining about me. 318 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,240 How is it that I had no idea? 319 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:41,320 There are many managerial issues as far as managing people that really we don't get any 320 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:42,320 training for. 321 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,040 Meanwhile, it's an inherent part of the work we do. 322 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,120 So you don't escape if you're like, oh yeah, I don't really do clinical. 323 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:50,240 I don't have to manage people. 324 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:51,300 Yes, you do. 325 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:56,000 As you're building a research program, you start to have staff that work for you. 326 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,800 I hope they are working for you as you're getting grants and funding people to be able 327 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,640 to work within your research program. 328 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,040 And then all of a sudden you have to learn to manage them. 329 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,840 And all of a sudden there's a person who doesn't show up for work three weeks in a row. 330 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,280 Meanwhile, you are paying them every week. 331 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,020 What do you want to do about that? 332 00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:15,320 How do you handle it? 333 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,160 Who do you talk to? 334 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,040 And for many of us, it's like, wait a minute, I'm focused on my research. 335 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,400 I don't have time for this. 336 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,040 And yeah, you don't have time for it, and yes, you must address it. 337 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,160 Where do you get the education you need to manage people? 338 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:30,160 Okay. 339 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:35,560 So I'm just sharing areas that you need to think about and address, though I'm not necessarily 340 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,160 telling you exactly where you go get this information. 341 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:45,200 But yes, so the fourth thing we talked about is the importance of management. 342 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:51,840 The fifth thing that I want to talk about is the importance of relationships. 343 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,200 So this one's a little bit different because to be honest, we've been doing relationships 344 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,300 all of our lives. 345 00:22:57,300 --> 00:23:09,800 But I think the aspect of it I want to talk about is the fact that when you finally transition, 346 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,680 well first of all, to be honest, let's go back to the very beginning. 347 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:18,080 Who you were before you went into medical school is completely different from the other 348 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,640 person who showed up on the other side of medicine. 349 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:25,000 And so if your parents knew you at the very beginning or your family members knew you, 350 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:30,280 let's just say that you were a very different person at the very end and you continue to 351 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:31,760 transform. 352 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,800 And one of the ways in which you've changed is how busy you are and how you don't have 353 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,620 as much time perhaps compared to other people to do the things that people your age do. 354 00:23:41,620 --> 00:23:47,600 So let's say for example, your friends on the weekends will go skiing maybe every other 355 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:55,640 weekend or go to the mountains for a nice guy's trip or a girl's trip. 356 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,280 And your schedule doesn't allow you to do that that often. 357 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:03,360 And in fact, maybe financially you can't do that as often right away because you're taking 358 00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:05,160 time to build it up. 359 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:11,320 And so to some extent, there are expectations of relationships around you or of people around 360 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,880 you who maybe used to know you or who don't even really know you but are in community 361 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,240 with you. 362 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,200 And there is a difference in expectation. 363 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,160 And sometimes you feel that tension because people feel like, well, you should be in the 364 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,160 same group as us. 365 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,160 You should be doing this. 366 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,320 You should be available for golf on Monday mornings. 367 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,720 And maybe at some point in your life, you will be available for golf on Monday mornings. 368 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,680 But that likely is not you at this point in your career. 369 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,640 How do you manage those relationships? 370 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,300 How do you manage those expectations? 371 00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:44,600 How do you manage those? 372 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,840 Now I'll say personally for me, one challenge I've had is people schedule meetings at night. 373 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,440 I am an early morning riser. 374 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,440 Now that doesn't so much have to do with my clinical training as much as that, you know, 375 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:01,080 if I'm on call, I haven't slept for the week before because I've been on call. 376 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,720 I just I want to catch up on sleep the next week for sure. 377 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,000 And so when people are like, oh my gosh, we have a party, it's coming up and we'd love 378 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,000 you to come. 379 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,880 How do you navigate those relationships and those expectations? 380 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:14,800 Now you may say, hey, that's common sense. 381 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,040 And I just want to tell you that it is not common sense. 382 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:23,580 It takes tact and wisdom and grace to be able to manage these. 383 00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:26,320 Now I'm even talking about relationships outside of work. 384 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,520 But let's even talk about relationships at work. 385 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,360 How do you manage your division chief who says you should take this role, it's gonna 386 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:33,880 be great for your career. 387 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,240 And you're like, I hate that role. 388 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,040 I know it's gonna suck. 389 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,460 No thank you. 390 00:25:38,460 --> 00:25:44,000 How do you politely say to somebody who is higher than you in the hierarchical order 391 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,040 that no, thank you. 392 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,800 I don't care for your recommendation. 393 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,520 And some of us have no challenges doing that to say, hey, this is a really great opportunity, 394 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,320 but I don't think it's for me. 395 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,320 But some of us struggle. 396 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,840 Some of us struggle where we're like, well, I don't want to make this person mad. 397 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,560 Why don't I just say yes? 398 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,060 And then we end up saying yes to things that we don't want to say. 399 00:26:05,060 --> 00:26:10,000 And so yeah, we need coaching to be able to help us manage those relationships, especially 400 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,860 the hierarchical relationships that maybe make us feel as if we are not choosing but 401 00:26:15,860 --> 00:26:17,880 that others are choosing for us. 402 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,580 Now in the research space, it's the mentor mentee relationship where you feel like you 403 00:26:21,580 --> 00:26:22,920 owe the mentor. 404 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,880 So whatever they ask you, you're like, of course I'll do it. 405 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,180 Not because it's something you want to do. 406 00:26:27,180 --> 00:26:30,880 But now you feel the obligation of, wow, this person is invested in me. 407 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,600 How can I say no? 408 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,720 Just because they've invested in you doesn't mean you don't get to say no. 409 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,040 But I can see that there is a challenge because there's a power differential. 410 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:45,700 And sometimes mentors are not such great people in terms of how they treat people or how they 411 00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:47,040 take no. 412 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,600 And I'm not calling out mentors specifically or wanting them to look bad. 413 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,480 I'm just saying our parents struggle with that too. 414 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:58,600 The moment you look to be growing up and saying, I don't want to do this thing you're recommending, 415 00:26:58,600 --> 00:26:59,780 parents struggle with it. 416 00:26:59,780 --> 00:27:01,440 It's a similar issue. 417 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:06,080 And so yeah, people, people relationships hard. 418 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,880 And you might say, oh, I should know how to do this. 419 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:08,880 I'm an adult. 420 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:13,380 But I have to tell you that it's a skill that needs to be learned. 421 00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:15,640 And just because you don't have the skill doesn't make you a bad person. 422 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,320 But it does mean you need the skill. 423 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,240 So think about that and think about going to get that skill. 424 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:25,560 Okay. 425 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,720 Number six is planning for retirement. 426 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,480 I know I talked about finances and number two. 427 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,200 And here I am talking about planning for retirement. 428 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,520 So I'm not going to talk too much about it. 429 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:40,160 But just saying that you love to work and you see yourself working forever and ever 430 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,520 and ever, which is fine. 431 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,480 But are you thinking about what, you know, when you finally do decide to throw in the 432 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,480 towel on your clinical work, what does the rest of your life look like? 433 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:50,920 How do you get there? 434 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,320 How are you doing retirement planning? 435 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,600 And it's a really important conversation to have. 436 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,400 It's a really, it's an important thing to think about. 437 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,120 Some of us outsource these decisions. 438 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:07,120 I'm going to say even when you outsource them, you should be aware, you should be savvy in 439 00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:10,640 thinking about what do you want your life to look like? 440 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,160 Do you want to wait until retirement for your life to look like that? 441 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:19,440 And having conversations around what are the appropriate strategies for wealth building. 442 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:20,440 That's important. 443 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,600 And we're not taught in med school or in our clinical training, but we do need to understand 444 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:25,600 this. 445 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:32,400 And then it's also important, especially for those of us who are employed as academic faculty, 446 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:38,320 because sometimes, especially compared to our compadres in private practice, we make 447 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,840 a lot less. 448 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,200 And so it's like, well, you're making a lot less. 449 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:43,200 This is great. 450 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:44,800 You have such great flexibility. 451 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,080 What does that say about your retirement schedule? 452 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:52,080 So you had said at 65, you want to retire based on what you're earning right now. 453 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,440 Or you can be able to retire at 65, or you can need to push it to 78. 454 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,960 That sounds awful. 455 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,600 But these are the important things to realize and to think about, because you understand 456 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,840 that you're doing certain things for a certain benefit today. 457 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,760 But you do want to recognize how they fit in the context of your bigger life. 458 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:11,760 Okay. 459 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,080 Number seven is legacy. 460 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,160 How do you leave a legacy? 461 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,720 And now this is the kind of thing I feel like people are like, well, when I'm 80, I'll think 462 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:20,720 about my legacy. 463 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,160 When I'm 70, I'll think about the legacy I want to leave. 464 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,200 And I would say that if you're thinking about legacy building when you're older, I hope 465 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,560 you'll have the time to really build the legacy you want. 466 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,680 But the reality is that the legacy you're building starts now. 467 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,600 And building legacy is something that we don't authentically, immediately, automatically 468 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:40,600 know how to do. 469 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,800 We need help to learn how to do that. 470 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,440 And if we were thinking in terms of building legacy right now, it might change the way 471 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,040 we interact with mentees. 472 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,040 It might change the way we interact with people around us. 473 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,360 It may change the kind of work we do. 474 00:29:55,360 --> 00:30:03,680 Because when we ask ourselves, hey, 20, 30, 40, 50 years from now, when I am no longer 475 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,200 here, what will be left? 476 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,300 What will be the evidence that I was here? 477 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:09,300 What is the evidence? 478 00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:15,280 And that's so important because I have to say that many times we as clinicians, we love 479 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:16,520 to give to our patients. 480 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,420 We absolutely do. 481 00:30:18,420 --> 00:30:23,120 And in reality, we will always have people who remembered how well we cared for them 482 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,520 and how much we loved on their kids. 483 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,200 But for some of us, there is a need for more tangibility to that legacy. 484 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:35,200 It's not just how many patients did I serve, but like, what is the mark, the indelible 485 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,400 mark I left on my community? 486 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,960 What is the indelible mark I left upon my family? 487 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,900 And you may think this is something that should just come naturally as you age, but it doesn't. 488 00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:50,800 It takes time to consider legacy, to begin to ask yourself, am I going to be able to 489 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,520 leave this legacy if I'm working the way I'm working now, or if I'm doing the kinds of 490 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,840 things I'm doing now? 491 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,080 Legacy building is not an accident. 492 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,020 It doesn't just happen. 493 00:31:02,020 --> 00:31:09,160 It is an intentional strategic move or a series of intentional strategic moves that people 494 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:15,040 make to get to the intended destination of building legacy. 495 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,720 So those are the things I just wanted to share for you to consider as things that we didn't 496 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,000 learn as clinicians, but are super important for our future. 497 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:29,680 And for that reason, I want you to be thinking about it and to see how can you get a little 498 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,600 bit of an education or maybe a lot? 499 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:34,600 Where can you go? 500 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:35,960 What circles can you go to? 501 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:39,800 What communities can you be part of so that you can get the knowledge that you need? 502 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:45,360 Okay, I'm going to summarize those seven, research, finances, business, management of 503 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,480 people, relationships, retirement, and legacy. 504 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,440 Those are the seven areas that I think, I mean, they're not exhaustive, right? 505 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,080 This is not, oh my gosh, you need these seven areas and you're done. 506 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,240 It's just easy, right, to give you a list of seven. 507 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,420 There are other things beside this list that you should be thinking about. 508 00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:08,760 But I want to say at the end of this that just because you weren't taught in medical 509 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,120 school, just because it wasn't part of your clinical training, doesn't mean it's not important 510 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,120 for you. 511 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:19,760 And just because your faculty appointment or your academic institution doesn't give 512 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:24,500 you these opportunities for development in these areas, doesn't mean you shouldn't go 513 00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:26,720 out and get them for yourself. 514 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:32,320 And so whatever opportunities you have to grow in the area in which you desire, go out 515 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,320 and do it. 516 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:34,320 Don't wait for permission. 517 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:35,320 Go out and do it. 518 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:40,400 And don't say I'm too busy, because what you're really saying is I don't prioritize it. 519 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,160 You will always be too busy to do the things you don't prioritize. 520 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,700 And so I invite you to think about what are the priorities for yourself, for your life? 521 00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:51,840 What is the legacy you want to leave? 522 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:59,440 And are you doing the things to get you to the destination you want to go to? 523 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,800 Or are you kind of just floating with a plan to end up at a destination if somebody else 524 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,480 is choosing? 525 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:06,480 All right. 526 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:07,480 It's been a pleasure talking with you today. 527 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,440 Thank you so much for listening. 528 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,120 I look forward to talking with you again the next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast. 529 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:22,680 Thank you for listening. 530 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:28,040 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic 531 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:33,280 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 532 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:34,860 have a mentor. 533 00:33:34,860 --> 00:33:40,960 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 534 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,720 Someone else needs to hear it. 535 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,760 So take a minute right now and share it. 536 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:52,220 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 537 00:33:52,220 --> 00:34:05,120 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.