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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you

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today.

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Today, I'm talking about money.

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Specifically, I'm talking about questions you should be asking about money.

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And the reason this topic is fresh on my mind is because I'm part of a coaching group, so

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I work with Dr. Latifat, who has a money school for women in medicine, for physicians specifically.

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And so we meet once a week, and we talk about money.

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And we talk about strategies, and we talk about what people are doing, and what syndication

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deals people are looking at, what investments people are making.

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And it's just so phenomenal because I have to tell you, I've never been in circles where

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we just talk about money.

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And every time I'm in these meetings, my awareness has just expanded.

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I learned things that I'd never understood before, because there I am at today's meeting

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saying, but what is a syndication deal?

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And I don't think I'm ready to do one today, but what I am is informed, because now I have

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information that I didn't have before.

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But yeah, so this particular conversation prompted me to decide to record today's episode.

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But before that, there was another story that prompted my thinking a little bit more about

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money than I usually do.

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Okay, so a couple of days ago, I was representing my society, the American Society of Human

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Technology on Capitol Hill.

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And I am a member of the committee and practice.

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And once a year, the committee and practice will go to their legislators on the hill and

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will present issues that the society has decided are pressing issues.

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Okay, so one of the issues that we had on our list is the issue of physician payments.

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And so if you are aware, the system regarding physician payments is broken, and I'm talking

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about physician payments from Medicare, such that even though every year, inflation is

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increasing, physician payments are decreasing every year.

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And there have been some stopgap measures to try to decrease the amount by which it's

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decreasing.

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I will tell you that it's an interesting phenomenon that it's decreasing every year.

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I'm sure that there are some more economic strategies to share exactly what's going on

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and the specificities of that.

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I cannot tell you, but simply the money is going down every year.

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And the strategies that they have to fix it right now are to decrease the amount by which

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it decreases every year.

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That's better than it decreasing by a more significant amount every year.

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But the issue is that while inflation is increasing, physician payments are decreasing.

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Okay, so that was one of the issues that we brought to Congress.

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And what's interesting is that, so we're a hematologist and we had one representative

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from Indiana, one representative from Illinois, and I was representing North Carolina.

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We were sitting waiting for our next appointment and we looked across the table beside us and

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there is a group of rheumatologists.

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And we're like, oh, what issues are you taking to your legislators?

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And they're talking about, guess what?

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The Physician Payment Act.

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In fact, the graph that shows how physician payments are decreasing while all other things

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on a fee schedule are increasing is a ubiquitous graph.

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Everybody has this graph.

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In fact, the graph is so ubiquitous, all the legislators know the graph.

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It's like, oh yeah, yeah, we know about this problem.

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It is a problem everybody knows about.

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And so then the question in my mind is like, well, if the problem is known and has been

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known for so long, why hasn't it been fixed?

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And I know that there are some of you who are legislative wizards out there and you

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can tell me exactly what's happening, but from my very simple understanding, it's like

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if payments should be increasing over time, but instead they're decreasing while inflation

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is rising, which means they're significantly decreasing, why can't it be changed?

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And what are the big barriers for change?

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Anyway, so I'm not here to answer that philosophical question because that's a huge question and

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not one that I believe I can answer.

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But the question I do want to answer is, well, if they're not going to fix it, what are you

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going to do about it?

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And I'm asking that question of me because if over time the reimbursement to physicians

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from Medicare, one of the largest payers in terms of the healthcare system, most of our

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patients are older and on Medicare, then what's going to be happening?

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So what's happening over time, and we're feeling the pinch of the need to do more clinical

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work just to make the same amount that used to be made.

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And so if you're an academic medical center, you may not feel the pinch as much, but if

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you are in private practice, for example, if you have a small practice, you're going

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to feel the pinch because this is money that helps you pay yourself.

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And so I think it made me stop and say, hey, who's in charge of the finances?

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Who's asking the questions about whether I'm able to be independent financially ultimately

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or not?

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So it got me thinking.

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And that's why having this meeting that I just stepped away from where we're really talking

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about taking ownership of our finances was huge, right?

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Stepping out of this meeting where we're all talking about taking ownership of our finances

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is a big deal.

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That's why I wanted to come talk to you about it today because I want you thinking about

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it too.

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I think one of the challenges for us, especially as academic physicians, is that we are so

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focused on all the stuff, seeing patients, writing our manuscripts and submitting grants

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and just doing all the things that are associated with being an academic physician.

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But here's the thing about being an academic physician, it will end.

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A day is coming when you're going to retire.

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You're going to walk away from the hallowed halls of the academic institution.

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And then what are you going to do?

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And will you be financially prepared for that moment?

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Some of us will not wait until retirement before we leave the hallowed halls with the

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academic institution for better or for worse.

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And are we prepared for that moment when it comes?

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Okay.

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So that's what I wanted to share.

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But I want to talk about seven questions you should be asking.

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Okay.

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About money specifically.

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This is about money and it matters because although really I'm really big on you being

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kind of the academician, the scholar, the clinician scientist, the clinician researcher

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that you need to be, I also recognize that if you cannot afford your life, that's a problem.

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And so I'm not here to talk to you about budgeting, not even really here to talk to you about

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investment.

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I just want to ask seven questions that I'd like you to consider asking yourself.

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Okay.

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So number one, how do I make money?

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How do I make money?

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Why is this question important?

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This question is important because whether you know it or not, how you make money drives

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your experience in the academic medical center.

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For example, when I first started, I was fully clinical, which meant it was 80%, but I was

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seeing patients five days a week.

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But how I made money actually is seeing the patient and writing the note, closing the

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chart.

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Until the chart is closed, money is not made.

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Or at least there's no bill generated so that money can be made.

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And so every time I was not very good at closing charts, every time I got the notification

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that, hey, you didn't close your charts, that was the sign that someone was like, hey, you're

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seeing patients, but we're not making money.

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Can we fix that?

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And it was a source of stress to me.

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I just thought that there was this principle they had and charts needed to be closed.

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What I didn't realize is that charts being closed means the institution makes money or

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at least can generate a bill so that money comes in.

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And so when I didn't close charts, I was playing with somebody else's money.

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Mine too, but mostly somebody else's money because they get more of it than I do.

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Right?

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But if I understood that, then it makes sense that I'm being badgered, I'm being bugged

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and people are like, you haven't closed your charts.

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You haven't closed your charts.

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You haven't closed your charts.

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Because what I realized is that that's how I make money.

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The moment I close a chart, money is made and it goes somewhere and there's some credit

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that comes to me, but that is the final denominator.

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But what goes into closing a chart?

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Well, first of all, you got to see a patient.

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Right?

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So prepping my notes before clinic doesn't earn me money.

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Seeing the patient is part of earning money, but it doesn't earn me money.

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I can see patient, charts not closed or money is not earned.

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Or I can see the patient, write the note, close the chart and then money is earned.

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Okay.

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Why is this important?

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This is important because you will live a happy life and no one will ask you questions

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as long as the math equation works between where all your funding comes from and your

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clinical revenue such that your salary is covered.

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Okay?

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The moment something happens and your salary is not being covered, let's say you haven't

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seen the requisite number of patients, you will hear about it.

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You absolutely will.

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Somebody will let you know.

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In academics, we talk about money indirectly.

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And so people will talk about charts being closed and your professional responsibility

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and it's not okay that you saw 50 patients and you've only closed three.

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They will talk about all that and you'll feel guilty because you're very good at feeling

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guilty.

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But the bottom line is that, hey, CES, if you did not close charts, that means bills

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were not generated and you are not making your salary.

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Okay.

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So I just wanted to talk about that in the context of the clinical picture because I

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think we understand it a little bit better in the context of writing grants.

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No funding means no protected time.

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It's very simple.

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But understand how you make money in terms of funding.

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So what gets you funding?

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Well, you have an idea and then you write a grant and you submit the grant.

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Great idea, grant not submitted, no money can come.

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Great idea, grant submitted, opportunities for money can come.

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But it's important for you to understand how do you make money?

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What part of your salary is covered by grants or part of your salary is covered by clinical

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effort and what aspects of those things actually bring you money?

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Okay.

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So if I have 300 meetings and some of them may be related to research, some of them may

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not, but if any of them, of any of those meetings don't move my research forward, don't increase

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my ability to write the next funded grant to write for more money, it's not helping

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me make money.

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Okay.

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So I'm not trying to be mercenary here.

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Why is this question important?

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This question is important because it helps you focus.

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It helps you align your focus.

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It helps you really think about the 20%.

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What are the things you do that create the highest value for you and the highest value

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for your employer?

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Because your employer needs you to generate money.

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It's the only reason you've been hired.

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You're a physician.

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Physicians are good generators of money and they leave you alone to the extent to which

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you're actually generating the money you're supposed to.

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You can generate excess money.

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They won't tell you too much about that, but if you generate too little, they want to know

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and they will let you know indirectly.

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So what it allows you to do, understanding how you make money, it allows you to prioritize

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what is it about what I do that creates the most value and you focus on that.

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A lot of things might fall by the wayside, but the things that fall by the wayside will

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not be the highest priority things.

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Right?

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So to be honest, I didn't used to think that writing notes was an important priority, but

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once I understood that, oh, it's not about the notes, it's about generating bill, then

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I can clarify, okay, how do I increase my efficiency?

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So I can close charts and people don't bother me because this is a thing that creates value

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in this space.

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So question number one is ask the question, how do I make money?

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And that gives you opportunity to maximize it so that you spend less time doing stuff.

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If you know that calling a prior authorization doesn't make you money, well, now you can

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negotiate who helps you call that prior authorization.

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And I'm glad that there are a lot of people working towards helping us so that we're not

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doing that kind of stuff all the time, but recognize that the more you understand how

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you make money, the more you can prioritize what is most important and see how you can

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delegate the things that are not important.

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Okay.

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I feel like I beat that one today.

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I've beat it enough.

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How do I make money?

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Okay.

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Question number two, where am I working for free versus where I'm working for pay?

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Why is this important?

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In our lives, we will not always be paid for the work we do and that's okay.

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Like I'm a mom, nobody pays me for that work or my pay is kind of more in kind, you know,

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like the joy that I get from serving as a mom, but it's not something for which anybody

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writes me a check every month.

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Would be nice, but it's not something I get a check for.

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But whether I get a check or not for being a mom, I love being a mom.

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I'm good with doing that work for free because the benefits I get are intangible.

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I value that.

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Okay.

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What else do I do for free?

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Well, I'm giving a talk to students who are interested in medicine and they're in high

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school and all they know about medicine is that you can be a nurse or a doctor.

241
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I'm going to come talk to them about being a hematologist.

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I found out I'm the only hematologist on the panel to talk to these students.

243
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I'm super excited because I need them to know about hematologists.

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Am I getting paid for this talk?

245
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No, but I'm choosing to do that because it is meaningful to me to pour into the next

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generation like that.

247
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Okay.

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Now, as a physician, I get paid for a certain amount of work that I do and I'm on a salary.

249
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So usually I think I probably work more than I get paid, which is fine.

250
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That's how salaries work.

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It also means on the months where I don't work as hard, I still get paid.

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So that's the benefit of the salary.

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But then there are parts of the extra stuff that I do, sometimes we'll talk about, is

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it a 40 hour work week or a 60 hour work week?

255
00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,340
Because if we can make it a 60 hour work week, then we can allow you to work harder and it

256
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not count as extra.

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Anyway, I say all that to say that it's okay to work for free if that's what you want to

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do.

259
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But if for any reason there are parts of your life where you're like, no, unless I don't

260
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,360
want my work for free, just make it explicit and clarify.

261
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So when somebody says, hey, I'd like you to please take a couple of three weeks of extra

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coal because you know, there is nobody to do it.

263
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You know, three people just quit.

264
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You can say, oh, I know the goodness of my heart.

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I want to do this.

266
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And how much is it going to be compensated?

267
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How is my time going to be compensated?

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And I know that's almost like a math amount because in medicine we don't talk about that

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kind of stuff.

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But I just need you to know that you might say, I choose to work for free.

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I'm going to take these three weeks of coal and I'm doing it out of the goodness of my

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heart.

273
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I'm working for free.

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And if that's your choice, that's your choice.

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Or you might say, I don't want to work for free.

276
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How is this extra time investment going to be compensated?

277
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And then you get to negotiate that.

278
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And it could be that you're like, can I, I want to get paid financially for it.

279
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I want money for this.

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Or you could say, hey, if I'm doing three weeks this year, I'm not doing three weeks

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next year because these three weeks need to count.

282
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But that's an opportunity you have when you know where you work for free and when you

283
00:17:06,120 --> 00:17:07,680
don't work for free.

284
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So you can be very clear who is paying for this time, who is paying for this time.

285
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,200
And it could be that I'm paying for it.

286
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That's okay.

287
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,040
Here I am up late recording this episode for you.

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I'm choosing, I'm paying for this time.

289
00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:29,080
So what question I want you to ask is where in my life am I working for free versus working

290
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for pay?

291
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Make the distinction.

292
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You don't have to do anything with the information, but be aware.

293
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Don't be in ignorance about how you're using and spending your time.

294
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All right.

295
00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,640
Number three, what do I want money to do for me tomorrow?

296
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I'm talking about retirement.

297
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What do I want money to do for me tomorrow?

298
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Talking about retirement.

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And to be honest, for most of us, we start, actually I shouldn't say most of us because

300
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,760
I don't know where you are, but for me, I'll speak about me.

301
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,520
I started, they told me I had to put money in retirement.

302
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:03,520
I'm like, sure.

303
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,640
They put it for me in target date funds.

304
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:06,640
I was like, great.

305
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:07,640
Okay.

306
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,360
What am I supposed to do with that?

307
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:13,120
Over time as I began to listen and learn, I was like, okay, let's look at the expense

308
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:14,120
ratios.

309
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:15,960
Is this how I want to invest my money?

310
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,240
Let's look at the performance.

311
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:18,640
Is this how I want to invest my money?

312
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,160
And I've changed my investments.

313
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,040
I no longer invest in target date funds.

314
00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,920
I'm not here to say that target date funds are problematic.

315
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,000
They're not.

316
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,880
It's just making active choices because I'm thinking about what do I want money to do

317
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:31,880
for me tomorrow?

318
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:32,880
I'm thinking about tomorrow.

319
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:33,880
I'm thinking about retirement.

320
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,980
And I'm like, what are my plans?

321
00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:36,980
What is my goal?

322
00:18:36,980 --> 00:18:42,520
And now I'm making choices that affect what tomorrow looks like.

323
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:43,520
Do I control tomorrow?

324
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:44,520
Absolutely not.

325
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:50,400
But I'm making the choice I can make because I recognize that tomorrow, the day of retirement,

326
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,340
or leaving this place, is coming.

327
00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:56,800
And it's an opportunity for me to really think about what does tomorrow look like?

328
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:57,800
When is tomorrow?

329
00:18:57,800 --> 00:18:59,840
Like, when is that day of retirement?

330
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:00,840
When is it coming?

331
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:01,840
When do I want it to come?

332
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:07,520
Am I just going to accept that I'm going to be here until 90 or 100?

333
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,600
All things working well?

334
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,720
Or do I want to be done with this at age 62?

335
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,440
We get to decide.

336
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,880
But part of thinking about what do I want my money to do for me tomorrow affects what

337
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,080
you do with the money today.

338
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:22,760
Okay.

339
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,600
Question before is what do I want money to do for me right now?

340
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,040
Now you can look at that in two ways.

341
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,960
One you can say, well, if I want money to do this for me tomorrow, what do I need to

342
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:31,960
be doing with money today?

343
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,400
So that tomorrow it does this for me.

344
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,400
Right?

345
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,080
What do I need to do with my money today so that in retirement it gives me the returns

346
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:40,080
that I want?

347
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,080
Right?

348
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:42,080
No guarantees.

349
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,600
But how do I prepare today for tomorrow?

350
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,000
That's one aspect of what I want money to do for me today.

351
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,160
But the other aspect is how do I want to live today?

352
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,360
I mean, you could totally like lock up all your money and just put it into the future.

353
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:57,920
Actually you couldn't because there are limits on how much you can invest, but there are

354
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,000
opportunities to invest in different things.

355
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,680
So it's not just your retirement accounts.

356
00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,800
You can invest in a syndication deal.

357
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,800
You can invest like an active real estate.

358
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:09,400
There's so many options for investment.

359
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,560
So it's not as if your retirement account is the only place for an investment.

360
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:15,800
So you could invest all your money.

361
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,280
You just put it all in savings, investments.

362
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,360
You do all that stuff and then you don't have enough money for yourself or you're paying

363
00:20:22,360 --> 00:20:27,000
off your student loan debt and you live like a pauper or maybe not a pauper.

364
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,000
You live frugally.

365
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,000
How about that?

366
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:30,480
That feels a little bit better.

367
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:31,480
Frugally.

368
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:32,480
But is that a choice you're making?

369
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:37,840
Are you actively making that choice or are you just kind of letting life carry you?

370
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,280
It's like, oh, this is the amount people pay on their student loans.

371
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,800
Therefore, I guess I do this.

372
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,400
Or when you are overwhelmed or feeling like, I don't like the way I'm living.

373
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,280
I can't go on vacation.

374
00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,920
But it's just, what do you want money to do for you right now?

375
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,360
And how do you free up money to do that for you right now?

376
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:57,680
What do you need to let go of so that money can do what you want money to do for you right

377
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,600
now?

378
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,240
What do you want money to do for you right now?

379
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:08,040
An important question so that you can make sure that you are achieving your goals and

380
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:14,320
living the life you want while also building your legacy in your research, in your scholarship,

381
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,200
your academic work, and also in your future.

382
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,240
So you're taking care of all those things, making sure that also you're living the life

383
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,560
you want to live today.

384
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:24,960
Okay?

385
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,720
Question number five, how can I reach my financial goal sooner?

386
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:29,720
Okay.

387
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,480
You know you love this positioning.

388
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,480
You love this positioning thing.

389
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,960
You're going to do it forever and ever.

390
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,600
Even then a day is coming where you're not.

391
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,040
It's not possible that you want to wait until 90 to retire.

392
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,760
I mean, once you get to age, I believe it's like 73 and some change, you start to make

393
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,880
these, you know, like required distributions from your retirement accounts.

394
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,920
But is that the age at which you want to retire?

395
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:54,920
Would you want to retire sooner?

396
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:59,520
Would you want to retire while you still have the great health to do the retirement thing?

397
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:04,920
Or do you really want to wait until like your old, older, and maybe suffering challenges

398
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,480
that are associated with aging?

399
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,680
You get to decide.

400
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,600
But the question is, if you want to, how can you reach these goals sooner?

401
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,240
Maybe you've resigned yourself to the fact that it's like, nope, I already have $300,000

402
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:18,240
worth of debt.

403
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,800
I have another couple of hundred thousand in this home that I bought.

404
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:21,800
I'm going to be in debt forever.

405
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:22,800
I'm going to be okay.

406
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,200
I've just resigned my life to this.

407
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:31,040
And I've heard some say that to me, but I'm saying, hey, what if, what if, let's just

408
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,560
imagine for a moment, what if it were possible?

409
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,760
For you to have a different outcome, what if it were possible for you to achieve your

410
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,680
financial goals sooner?

411
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,520
How might that change the way you show up?

412
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,800
Just a thought, just a thought experiment.

413
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:46,800
Don't get too excited.

414
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,320
But what if you could reach your financial goals sooner?

415
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,320
Would you want to?

416
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,840
And what would you do if you did?

417
00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:01,400
It's a question to ask so that you can take charge and change the way you behave today

418
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,840
to achieve the outcome that you want tomorrow.

419
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:04,840
Okay.

420
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:13,080
Sixth question is what's my current salary relative to my position and level of experience?

421
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,080
Okay.

422
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,080
Another one that's a little bit tense.

423
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,920
I like, I can feel the tension building up in my belly even as I talk about it, because

424
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,080
it's like an academic talking about salary.

425
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,480
Oh, no, we don't talk about that.

426
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,600
And I want to say it's time to talk about it.

427
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:26,800
It is time to talk about it.

428
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,680
For many of us who are underrepresented in the academy in any way, whether we're women

429
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:38,920
or whether we're a gender or sexual or ethnic minority or racial minority, it is possible

430
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:44,640
and quite likely that there may be some inequities in our pay.

431
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:45,880
I'm not saying definite.

432
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,080
I'm saying possible, maybe likely.

433
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,920
You don't know.

434
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,520
You don't know until you start asking questions.

435
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,400
And you may not want to do anything about it.

436
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,240
You may be like, oh, I know there's inequities, but how much is the inequity?

437
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,200
Or you may be like, oh, no, I'm fine.

438
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:03,640
Yeah, to what extent are you fine?

439
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,960
And I'm not asking you to say, well, what is that person earning?

440
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:11,280
And am I earning something relative to that person, which, you know, it always starts

441
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,580
its own kind of controversy.

442
00:24:13,580 --> 00:24:18,400
The question is not compared to others as much as it's like, well, for me today, as

443
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:24,040
an associate professor who has been in this role for the last four to five years, how

444
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,800
much should I be earning?

445
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:28,800
Ask that question.

446
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,320
And maybe it's not a question that you ask yourself.

447
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,720
As much as it's a question you can ask your division chief, like, oh, I want to make sure

448
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,360
that I am benchmarked correctly.

449
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:44,040
What are the benchmarks of someone who is at my position and has been in this role for

450
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,520
the past couple of years?

451
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,760
Ask the question and see what answer you get.

452
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:50,760
It'll be interesting.

453
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,200
It'll definitely be interesting.

454
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,400
But if you don't ask, you don't know.

455
00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:00,160
I want to invite you not to be afraid to ask because information helps you make decisions.

456
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,400
So ask, ask that of yourself.

457
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,160
To what extent can you answer the question?

458
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,200
But then ask that of the people who actually know.

459
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,240
Now see to what extent they can answer the question for you.

460
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:11,800
Again, you don't need to do anything.

461
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:12,800
You don't need to put up a fight.

462
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,480
You don't need to be angry.

463
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,560
Just get the information, just the information.

464
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,000
All right.

465
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,920
Number seven, what will it take to get the financial information that sets me free?

466
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,240
This is a question that I actually I'm asking for myself.

467
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,240
I'm already kind of in the process of getting information that sets me free.

468
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,200
That helps me think differently about my finances.

469
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:40,440
What I find about many of us academics, and I will speak for myself, is I'm so busy going

470
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,520
from one manuscript to the other manuscript, one grant to the next grant, that to be honest,

471
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,080
there isn't really time to stop and think about, wait a minute, what do I want to do

472
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,640
with my financial future?

473
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,040
Because it just doesn't feel normal, right?

474
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,120
In medicine, that's not something we really talk about.

475
00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:57,060
But it is time to start talking about it.

476
00:25:57,060 --> 00:25:59,000
It's time to start thinking about it.

477
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,760
And what will it take to get the information you need?

478
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:05,600
And I hear some of you say, but I'm so busy.

479
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:06,960
It's like, yes, you are busy.

480
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,440
And I'm so excited for you that you're busy.

481
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,800
And you can never be too busy to take charge of your financial future.

482
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,060
You can never be too busy to sit and think about, well, what are the financial goals

483
00:26:19,060 --> 00:26:20,060
that I have?

484
00:26:20,060 --> 00:26:21,920
How do I reach them?

485
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,700
How do I reach them sooner?

486
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:28,160
What will it take to live the kind of life I want to live today and the kind of future

487
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,160
I want to have tomorrow?

488
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,000
What will it take to accomplish that?

489
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,440
These are questions I'm still asking myself.

490
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,520
I'm going to summarize in just a little bit.

491
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,120
Number one, how do I make money?

492
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,680
Number two, where am I working for free versus working for pay?

493
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,880
Number three, what do I want money to do for me tomorrow?

494
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,680
Number four, what do I want money to do for me right now?

495
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,760
Number five, how can I reach my financial goals sooner?

496
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:55,040
Number six, what is my current salary relative to my position and level of experience?

497
00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:00,320
And number seven, what will it take to get the financial information that sets me free?

498
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:07,240
I tell you that this journey of academia or scholarship is about your whole life.

499
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,320
It's not about just grants and manuscripts.

500
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:15,120
And we would be remiss if all we focused on were the things that may not take us the distance

501
00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:16,520
that we need to get to.

502
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,840
I know it's important to focus.

503
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,280
And I'm always a big person on telling you to focus.

504
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,600
It's a thing.

505
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,240
You should focus.

506
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,280
And you should make sure that you do not focus on your career to the detriment of your financial

507
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,760
future.

508
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,920
Both should go hand in hand so that you can work your career to give you the financial

509
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:39,480
future that you desire.

510
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,480
All right.

511
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,680
I'm going to have more thoughts on it in the future.

512
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,560
But today, thank you for listening to what I do have to share.

513
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,560
As always, if you are looking for a coach, definitely reach out to me.

514
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,880
You can find me on Instagram, find me on LinkedIn, and on Facebook as well.

515
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,040
I look forward to hearing from you.

516
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:04,240
And I am so thankful that you will, I ask, share this with somebody else who would benefit

517
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,400
from thinking and talking about money.

518
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:07,480
All right.

519
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,760
Have a great rest of your day.

520
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:21,000
And I'll see you next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.

521
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,360
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:31,600
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,120
have a mentor.

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00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:39,240
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

525
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,000
Someone else needs to hear it.

526
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,040
So take a minute right now and share it.

527
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:50,480
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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00:28:50,480 --> 00:29:03,360
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.