1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,320 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:03,600 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,920 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and I'm so excited to be on the show today because I 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:13,560 have with me a wonderful academic physician, scientist, administrator. 15 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,280 Oh my goodness, she wears so many hats. 16 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:20,720 Actually, I should add to that changing the world one student at a time. 17 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:22,800 She's doing so much, Dr. Leonor Corsino. 18 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,280 Leonor, welcome to the show. 19 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:27,720 Well, thank you so much for having me. 20 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,920 I am so excited to be joining you today for this conversation. 21 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,800 I'm looking forward to talk to you about our journeys. 22 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,840 Yes, the pleasure is absolutely mine. 23 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:43,800 Leonor, would you introduce yourself to our audience, especially with regard to your path 24 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:45,400 as a clinician researcher? 25 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:46,400 Yes. 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:48,400 So I'm Leonor Corsino. 27 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,840 I'm an associate professor with tenure in the Department of Medicine at Duke University. 28 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,560 I'm also an associate professor in the Department of Population Health Science. 29 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,720 As you mentioned earlier, I hold other roles in our school. 30 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:06,280 I'm the co-director for the CTSI Community Engagement Court, and I also work as an associate 31 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:08,480 dean for students' affairs. 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,240 I also have a small role as the associate director for a master's degree in our school, 33 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,440 which is the master of biomedical sciences. 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,080 And I still do a little bit of research too on this side. 35 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:21,840 Wow. 36 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,960 So Leonor, you do a lot. 37 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,720 Now you didn't start out doing this much. 38 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,840 So tell us a little bit about your journey, because I think when you started, you were 39 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:32,660 a lot more research intensive. 40 00:02:32,660 --> 00:02:37,160 So how did you kind of come in this direction to where you're still doing research on top 41 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,400 of all these other things that you're still doing? 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:40,400 Yes. 43 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,160 So I actually started my journey at Duke in 2006. 44 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:50,080 So I joined Duke as an endocrinology fellow with the notion that I wanted to pursue a 45 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,680 career as a physician scientist. 46 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,600 So I was in a T32 grant for my last two years of fellowship. 47 00:02:55,600 --> 00:03:00,160 So I did a three-year endocrine fellowship and simultaneously completed my master of 48 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,400 health science in clinical research. 49 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:07,300 So my goal was to be a clinician scientist doing mostly research. 50 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:16,040 And that's what I did from 2009 to 2015 as a junior faculty, I had 75 to 80% of my time 51 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,500 covered by research grants. 52 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:24,640 And then it was not until 2015 that I got invited to actually join some of these educational 53 00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:26,080 leadership roles. 54 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:32,320 And that's how I transitioned a little bit from a pure physician scientist to more roles 55 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,500 as a leader and educator. 56 00:03:34,500 --> 00:03:37,120 My research interests are still the same. 57 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:42,920 My interest is diabetes and diabetes-related comorbidities with a special emphasis in health 58 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,800 disparities and the Hispanic and Latino population. 59 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,680 But also along those lines, I've been trying to do some work in bias, implicit bias in 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,760 patient provider communication and patient's outcomes. 61 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,220 Well, that is so awesome. 62 00:03:59,220 --> 00:04:03,720 One of the things you speak to that I do want you to come back to is that you started off 63 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,920 pretty research intensive. 64 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:11,000 Now many times, I think for junior faculty that are coming in right now, many times they'll 65 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,240 say, well, I just want to be 50-50. 66 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,480 So that's how I want to start out. 67 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,320 Could you speak to the advantages of starting out a lot more intensively research? 68 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:26,360 Or could you speak to the benefits or the disadvantages of trying to start out kind 69 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:31,440 of in a 50-50 or more clinical research split type role? 70 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,920 Well, this is my personal opinion. 71 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:39,840 But I think if you are really committed to be a physician scientist, less than 75% of 72 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:43,400 research might not get you where you need to be. 73 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:50,160 We all know that 50-50 is probably like 80 patient care than 20% research because always 74 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,520 your patients will come first. 75 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,800 And the reality is that you really at the beginning of your career, if you're really 76 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:02,880 serious about it to get your papers, your grants, you really need that protected time. 77 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,200 And I don't think 50% is enough. 78 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:06,800 But that's my personal opinion. 79 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:12,320 I have to say I was blessed that I was able to secure that from the beginning to be able 80 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:13,640 to achieve a lot of this. 81 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:19,200 I know that it's not possible for a lot of junior faculty to actually secure that amount 82 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,160 of funding for research. 83 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,480 And they have to start with whatever they can until they get to that level of getting 84 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:32,080 their first K or their first R. But I have seen a lot of my colleagues and friends struggle 85 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,480 with that 50-50 exactly because patient care will take over. 86 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:42,920 And at the end, your research or your paper gets derailed from timelines because everything 87 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:44,280 else takes over. 88 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:47,720 Leonor, thank you so much for that perspective. 89 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,360 And that's something that I think is important for people to know. 90 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,920 I think, and maybe you could speak to this, it's not about giving up patient care. 91 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,400 It's not about saying, well, I'm not seeing patients anymore. 92 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:03,300 It's recognizing that you don't have the skill set and what it takes to build the skill set. 93 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:07,260 And so you can always go back to more patient care if that's what you choose. 94 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:10,360 But it is harder to make the transition the other way around. 95 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:14,760 If you want to speak to why do you need so much time, what are you doing? 96 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,360 It's just research. 97 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:22,200 Well, I think once again, I think I mentioned earlier, one thing is you need time to get 98 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:23,600 those papers out. 99 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:28,180 And papers, if you're like me, they take long. 100 00:06:28,180 --> 00:06:29,880 They don't, I'm not a natural. 101 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:36,080 So in order to do it well, you need that time of relaxation where you can put your brain 102 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,080 in a relaxed mode to write your thoughts in paper. 103 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,280 And that's one of the parts. 104 00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:49,240 The other thing is you also need time without distraction to think about your next ideas. 105 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:55,480 And to be honest, I don't think I ever had enough time to do that because I was always 106 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,540 writing something or in a meeting or doing the research. 107 00:06:59,540 --> 00:07:06,080 And I think you need to be intentional about blocking those two hours a day, three hours 108 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:11,200 a day, whatever you can to just generate the ideas for your next grant. 109 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:16,920 That's the way I learned from mentors that are very successful in this path. 110 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,200 That's how they get to that next big R1 or that next big thing that is going to get their 111 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,380 career into the next level. 112 00:07:24,380 --> 00:07:28,700 And sometimes as junior faculty, we don't incorporate that into our day by day. 113 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:34,760 And that's where we get overwhelmed because sometimes we have ideas that are not fully 114 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,440 developed and we try to write a grant when we're not ready. 115 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:40,440 Right? 116 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,800 Or the idea is not ready. 117 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:44,800 Thank you. 118 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:45,800 Thank you for sharing that perspective. 119 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,540 Because what you were talking about is thinking as work. 120 00:07:49,540 --> 00:07:53,600 And so sometimes if we're not busy doing something, we feel like, well, we're not doing anything. 121 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,840 And to be honest, we live in an environment or even in academia, we were like, well, what 122 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:58,840 did you do? 123 00:07:58,840 --> 00:07:59,840 What are you doing? 124 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:00,840 How many patients are you seeing? 125 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:01,840 What's your RV use? 126 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:07,560 But in reality, the ability to sit down and really hash out an idea and create something 127 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:12,440 that you're going to actually continue to recreate over time, that does take time and 128 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,160 it is work. 129 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,800 And if people are questioning how much time you have available, because people will say, 130 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,180 oh, you clearly have Thursday mornings free. 131 00:08:21,180 --> 00:08:24,360 Why don't you see one or two extra patients? 132 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:29,160 Thinking is intensive and it needs time to be done well. 133 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:30,160 Yes. 134 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,160 Yeah. 135 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:37,200 I felt that pressure because I've never had more than 25% patient care. 136 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:38,760 Not because I don't love patients. 137 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:45,280 I love seeing my patients, but I realized my style is someone that wants to get my notes 138 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:46,480 perfect. 139 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,160 I want to know it all. 140 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:49,920 I want to have it all done. 141 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,040 And I realized it was taking so much time. 142 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,960 It still takes a lot of time, even though I don't see a lot of patients. 143 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:05,120 I still have a whole day of patient care where I try to do my notes and have everything ready. 144 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:10,240 And if you add Cali four clinics a week, there goes your week. 145 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,960 So you really need to actually be protective of time to generate ideas. 146 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:17,740 Absolutely. 147 00:09:17,740 --> 00:09:22,280 And I think, Leonor, one of the things that people don't know when they're early career 148 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,760 and they're just starting is there's not an awareness about how much time it actually 149 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:27,760 takes. 150 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,560 And it's one of those unconscious where you just don't know what you don't know. 151 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:36,400 And to be honest, as you said earlier, there's so many faculty who are starting out without 152 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,080 any protected time. 153 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:39,480 And it really does make it hard. 154 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,540 I wonder if you could speak about strategies to succeed when you don't start out with that 155 00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:45,800 level of protection. 156 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,560 I think it's extremely hard to achieve anything if you don't have protection. 157 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:57,840 What I share with my advicees or my mentees before you sign a contract, you actually need 158 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:06,320 to figure out how to get that protected time because it's like signing for failure. 159 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,220 If you don't do your due diligence ahead of time, it will be really hard. 160 00:10:10,220 --> 00:10:15,920 And I think I'm grateful to my mentor because when I was transitioning from being a fellow 161 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:24,000 to a faculty, it was clear that my mentor actually helped me negotiate the time that 162 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,540 I needed. 163 00:10:25,540 --> 00:10:32,920 And I can attest as someone that was relatively successful as a physician scientist that without 164 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:38,560 that advice from my mentor, I don't think I would have been able to do much because I 165 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:44,120 have seen that happen to some of my colleagues that didn't have the same type of mentorship 166 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:50,220 that actually signed to do 50-50 or 80% clinical, 20% research. 167 00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:56,720 And then their research career goes downhill because they didn't have that time. 168 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:02,180 So if research is really what you want to do, I question not to sign any contract that 169 00:11:02,180 --> 00:11:05,800 doesn't have any protective time for research. 170 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:10,120 Thank you, Leronora, and I'm so happy that you said that because sometimes here's the 171 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,360 thing about us as physicians, we've been doing the impossible from the beginning. 172 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,600 From day one, we've been doing impossible things. 173 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,940 And so there's this idea that we're going to be able to do it. 174 00:11:17,940 --> 00:11:21,000 And to be honest, research is just, it is a skills deficit. 175 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,160 I mean, PhD scientists go to school for six, seven years. 176 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,560 They're just doing research for the most part. 177 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,040 They don't have clinical care responsibilities, all of that. 178 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,520 It's a skillset you're building and it takes time to build skills. 179 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,800 But if you don't even have the time to build a skill, where is it going to come from? 180 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,160 And that's why people are miserable, trying to live life on the margins, taking your nights 181 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:46,000 and your weekends to accomplish something that is really a full-time daytime job. 182 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,000 So thank you. 183 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,280 Thank you so much for sharing that. 184 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaking about the things that you love. 185 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:57,740 So Leronora, one of the things I know about you is that you have not followed what people 186 00:11:57,740 --> 00:12:01,960 say you should do as much as you followed what you want to do. 187 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:03,840 Now could you speak about that? 188 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,840 Because that's not a very common perspective in academia. 189 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:07,840 Yes. 190 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,000 So I'm glad you're asking that question because I feel like a lot of people, when they look 191 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:19,520 at my trajectory, here I do, especially because that's the only institution I know, they wonder 192 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:23,240 what happened to this person. 193 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:28,200 Because to be honest, I never follow a straight line. 194 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,900 I never follow the traditional path. 195 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:36,280 And it's not that I'm a rebel and I want to do things my way. 196 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:38,360 That's not how I am. 197 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,160 Actually, I like to follow rules. 198 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:48,840 But I realized early in my career that I really wanted to do things that bring me joy. 199 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:54,240 And if it was like being an advisor for the Latino Medical Student Association for free, 200 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,280 I was going to do that because that was something that brought joy to my life. 201 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,320 And I felt like I don't want to be miserable doing this type of work. 202 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:07,180 Or if it's mentoring undergraduate students or high school students, I was going to go 203 00:13:07,180 --> 00:13:15,280 for it even if it was at the price of sacrificing maybe free time to generate my ideas and writing 204 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:16,560 my papers. 205 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:22,280 And I encourage people to do the same because when I was doing this, I got a lot of pushback 206 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:29,560 from people that I consider traditionalists that felt that by just following my heart 207 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:35,360 and doing things that I really enjoy, I was not going to be able to make it because I 208 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:42,560 was not building my niche or I was not getting like my K or I was not getting my R. And the 209 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:49,040 reality is that not that I didn't care, but I felt like why would I want to pursue that 210 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:55,000 if I'm going to be unhappy and not making a difference the way I see I want to make a 211 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,640 difference because that's also very personal. 212 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,360 How do you want to make a difference? 213 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,520 It's very individualized. 214 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,760 So I just, every project that I do has to be something that brings me joy. 215 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:11,240 If I don't see that as part of the process, then I won't do it. 216 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,960 It's not going to be on my list of to do things. 217 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,280 And I don't know if I answered your question correctly, but that's how I see my enrolling 218 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:19,280 academia. 219 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:25,720 Just having fun while I go and I work a lot, but I do things that bring me joy. 220 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:32,520 So it's more like joyful working, not stressful working, if that makes sense. 221 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,080 No, it's, it perfectly is understandable. 222 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,280 I mean, I appreciate you saying that because here's the thing you said, you're working 223 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:40,280 hard. 224 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:44,000 So you're not saying I do the things I enjoy in life as a walk in the park. 225 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,480 You're still challenged. 226 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,260 It's still hard. 227 00:14:47,260 --> 00:14:53,080 And so what makes sense to me is that if you're going to work really hard and it's still going 228 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,800 to be a challenging path, then why wouldn't you work in the things that you actually want 229 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:57,800 to do? 230 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,600 Why would you accept misery on top of how hard it is? 231 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,120 Can you speak to some of that? 232 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:09,160 Because there's a lot of people around us who do that and somehow they're successful. 233 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:10,800 Yes. 234 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,600 And they are very successful. 235 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,040 I think we are surrounded by a lot of people like that, right? 236 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,840 That you see them and you're like, Oh my God, they're doing all these wonderful things. 237 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:27,000 But the reality is that you don't see that joyful person or their face does not reflect 238 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,840 really how much passion they have on the work they do. 239 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,520 I think I got that from my parents. 240 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:38,000 Both of my parents were hard workers, but they always pursue something that brought 241 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,280 them joy. 242 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,520 So I have good role models and I also have mentors too here at Duke that I saw that are 243 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,280 people that are really enjoying what they do. 244 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:53,080 And you want to surround yourself with people like that because it's a tough role of things 245 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,080 that we have to do. 246 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,560 I'm sorry, I think I derailed from your question, but it. 247 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:58,960 No, that's perfect. 248 00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:59,960 That's perfect. 249 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:00,960 It is. 250 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:01,960 It is because that is what I'm saying. 251 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:02,960 It's possible. 252 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,320 The reality is the advice that people give, like follow, maybe they say, follow this one 253 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:08,560 mentor, just do what they do. 254 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,240 Just keep going until you get the K, the R, everything, and then you can do what you like. 255 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:18,440 It kind of is a trap because the moment you're successful, people expect that's all you do. 256 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,240 And it's possible to have everything, all the accolades, all the awards and be really 257 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:24,600 miserable. 258 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,000 And at least for me, and it sounds like for you, Leonor, it's not worth it. 259 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,800 And each person needs to decide whether they just want all the glory or they want to have 260 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:35,600 joy in the journey. 261 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,360 And I think you can have both if you're strategic. 262 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:39,360 Yeah. 263 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:45,280 I want to add to that because I think a lot of everybody's different. 264 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:50,440 I didn't enter this space because I wanted the glory or the awards. 265 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:58,840 I know I have received that as recognition of my work, but I never pursue that as my 266 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,200 main goal. 267 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:06,440 And I think that's where some people get derailed sometimes between the joy and the work because 268 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,840 they focus too much on the awards, the Ks, the recognition. 269 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,680 And believe me, when you do things with passion and love, those recognitions will get, you're 270 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:17,680 going to get them. 271 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,120 People are going to notice that you're doing it. 272 00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:27,240 And maybe it will take longer because you might be working behind the scenes and people 273 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,440 might not realize all the things you're doing, but it will happen. 274 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:38,500 So for junior faculty specifically, just do what you love and people will see it. 275 00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:41,960 Maybe not today or tomorrow, but it will happen at one point. 276 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,480 The rewards are going to be there. 277 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:46,480 Thank you, Lenore. 278 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:48,620 You point out that it is the harder path. 279 00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:53,520 The path of doing what you enjoy, what brings you joy, what you're passionate about is the 280 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,880 harder path because it's not as well worn, but the rewards are great. 281 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,800 And so it's worth sticking with it. 282 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:00,800 Yeah. 283 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:07,680 Let me ask you this, Lenore, you're someone who I think has been very strategic. 284 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:12,080 And for everyone who's listening, I've known Lenore since I was, I think a med student. 285 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,900 I think she was a fellow med student. 286 00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:16,900 And so I've known her for a long time. 287 00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:17,900 You're giving up on eight. 288 00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:20,220 Well, she's very beautiful, very young looking. 289 00:18:20,220 --> 00:18:22,600 You should watch the video. 290 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:23,600 She's beautiful. 291 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:24,600 Yes. 292 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,360 Lenore, you've been very strategic, right? 293 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:31,400 Can you talk about some of the strategic moves you've made in this process? 294 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,960 Yes, I am very strategic. 295 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:40,920 My students will say that I always use that word when I'm advising my medical students 296 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,280 and I'm very organized. 297 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:50,960 Some thing that I encourage everybody to do is know what is expected from you. 298 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:56,640 So I knew that I wanted to do things that brought me joy, but I also knew that I have 299 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,240 to fulfill certain expectations to be able to move up the ladder. 300 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,320 So I started as a medical instructor. 301 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,760 And from the first day I signed my contract as a junior faculty, I already knew what was 302 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:14,000 expected from me to be able to move to assistant professor. 303 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:20,080 So I knew I had to get whatever number of papers, whatever grants I had to do. 304 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:26,440 I put it on a place where I can revisit on a regular basis to make sure I was on track 305 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,800 of achieving those expectations. 306 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,320 The same when I was trying to get tenure. 307 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:38,120 I knew that my career has shifted to a different direction, but I was very clear that the expectations 308 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:42,640 for the institution that I worked at were like I had to get my papers, I have to get 309 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,320 my grants, I have to get my national, international reputation. 310 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:53,560 So I work in parallel while I was doing my joyful work, I was also working on the things 311 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:58,560 that were expected, which was getting all my papers out and getting certain presentations 312 00:19:58,560 --> 00:19:59,720 and stuff like that. 313 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:07,400 And I think that's the only way you can actually be successful and not get derailed. 314 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:14,800 Because it is very easy to just follow your path and do everything you find joyful and 315 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:20,280 then not pay attention to the things that are going to really count towards your success 316 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:21,280 and moving up. 317 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:27,880 And I, of course, people, I actually print out the promotion and tenure documents for 318 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:28,960 my institution. 319 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,920 I have it in a folder in my office. 320 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,440 And once in a while, I will look it up, I'll make sure am I on track? 321 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:37,760 What am I missing? 322 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,760 What are the things I need to do? 323 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:45,400 I also reach out to the individuals at my department that are responsible for promotion 324 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:46,400 and tenure. 325 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,080 Once in a while, I ask them, can you look at my CV and I'm on track? 326 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:51,080 What am I missing? 327 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,040 What are the things I need to do? 328 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:59,200 And that's being very strategic on my part because I know I can get very distracted, 329 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,080 something that I have to share. 330 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,400 I cannot do one the same thing all the time, so I can be very distracted. 331 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:15,400 But I also know myself that that will be a downside if I don't keep an eye on the long-term 332 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,840 goal, which is getting full professor with tenure. 333 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:24,080 That is awesome and thank you so much for sharing that, Leonor. 334 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,560 I feel like you just gave a master class. 335 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:32,680 That was just so perfect because the key is that in the academy, there are things that 336 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,280 are valued and those things don't change going from institution to institution. 337 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,120 People value publications and they value grants. 338 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:45,720 And for many faculty, as you look through your appointment and promotions and tenure 339 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,080 documents, those are things that feature quite consistently and not just those things. 340 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:55,120 You talk about international reputation, national reputation, giving talks, that kind of thing. 341 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,000 They're all pretty well detailed. 342 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,840 And so as you're doing the things you love, yes, you want to make sure that you are layering 343 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:07,000 your interest over what the institution values so that at the end, it double counts. 344 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,760 It counts for your joy and it counts to give you credit that you've been doing work well. 345 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:12,760 So that was fantastic. 346 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Thank you so much for laying that out. 347 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:19,960 Well, that requires intentionality. 348 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,200 It doesn't happen. 349 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,200 You have to be strategic. 350 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:24,680 Yes, yes. 351 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,760 And you talk about involving people too. 352 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:30,760 So it's not just you saying, I'm meeting the metrics. 353 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,480 It's you asking other people objectively and saying, hey, how does this working? 354 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:40,400 You gave me that advice and that really helps me because early on I was having meetings 355 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,000 with a person who's in charge just saying, hey, here's my CV. 356 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:46,000 What do you think? 357 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,000 Here's my statement. 358 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,000 What do you think? 359 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,800 And that really helps me start being intentional about shaping what the statement is going 360 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,520 to look like looking forward rather than trying to look backwards and make it all fit. 361 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:57,520 Yes. 362 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:04,000 And that's also an advice I give to junior faculty all the time because we want to have 363 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,200 resistance against assistance. 364 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,200 Right? 365 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,480 We're like, why do I have to do it this way? 366 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,840 Well, you nicely alluded to the fact that academic institutions have rules of what is 367 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,920 expected and I don't see that changing much. 368 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,920 It's not our institution thing. 369 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:25,120 It's institutions that have the same expectations. 370 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:31,040 And the earlier you know that and the earlier you have your allies and people that are going 371 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:39,240 to advise you how to fulfill them in a proactive way, the easier the journey will be. 372 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:44,640 I think sometimes it's like we want to resist until we get to the point, oh, I want to go 373 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,080 to associate professor and then you look back, you're like, oh, but I don't have all the 374 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,360 papers I'm supposed to have. 375 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:53,280 Or I didn't do all the talks that I was supposed to do. 376 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,800 And then that's where the frustration comes because you feel like you wasted your time. 377 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,920 But if you do it early, then you know what you're aiming for, what your goal is. 378 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,480 So it's not as hard. 379 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:10,640 I'm not saying it's going to be easier, but it's less stressful. 380 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:11,640 Thank you. 381 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,640 Thank you. 382 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,640 I love the way you put it. 383 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:14,840 It's like we want to be resistant. 384 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,040 We want to resist, you know, the powers that be. 385 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:23,320 But as long as we're in a system, it is worth knowing all the rules and then you can decide 386 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,600 strategically which ones you follow, which ones you don't, but you got to know them. 387 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:28,920 And then you've got to be strategic. 388 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,360 You can't just pick and choose. 389 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:33,560 And then you might get to the point where you're like, well, you can't move forward 390 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,560 in the way you want to. 391 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,320 So I really appreciate you saying that. 392 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:37,320 Thanks, Leonor. 393 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,320 You're welcome. 394 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,440 So we're kind of getting closer to the end. 395 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,120 And I have two more questions for you. 396 00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:45,280 Hopefully we can get to those. 397 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,760 But one question is that at some point you decided to make that transition away from 398 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:50,960 research. 399 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,720 Could you tell me about what that transition looked like and how you set yourself up to 400 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,200 be where you are today and still keep some of that research? 401 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:05,160 Yeah, it was a very serendipitous situation for me. 402 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:11,960 In 2015, I was actually on a, I don't want to call a gap, but I took three months off 403 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,880 to deal with a lot of personal challenges I was facing. 404 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,960 And during that time, I received an email from a colleague who invited me to join the 405 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:27,160 Duke Master of Biomedical Science as one of the executive team members and an advisor. 406 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,280 And it was funny because I got the email and it was like, you know, this sounds great, 407 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,680 but right now I'm going to leave and I will be back in January. 408 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,120 Is this an opportunity that can wait until I get back so we can see it and talk about 409 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:45,060 and see if this is really in alignment with what I want to do as I move forward? 410 00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:49,600 So that person was kind enough to say, you know what, there's no rush. 411 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,720 Whenever you're ready, when you get back here in January, we'll meet in person, we'll talk 412 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,640 about it and see. 413 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,280 And then that's how it happened. 414 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,320 We met, I interviewed with the rest of the members of the executive team and it was a 415 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,320 match. 416 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:09,920 We actually, I think I found my tribe of people that I actually love to work with that are 417 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:15,140 extremely supportive, very interprofessional and collaborative environment. 418 00:26:15,140 --> 00:26:17,400 And I was like, yeah, I'll take the job. 419 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,400 That's great. 420 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:23,960 And that's how I actually started taking some of the leadership educational roles. 421 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:28,360 And I've been in this role for 10 years and it's been the best thing. 422 00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:33,800 I learned from the best in our school in education, I have to say. 423 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,880 And that's where I realized, you know what, this brings me more joy than submitting my 424 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,680 next K or getting rejected for my next paper. 425 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,840 And I started that transition. 426 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,000 So as part of that role, in addition to being a member of the executive team, I also advise 427 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,200 students that are doing the post-bacc or the master's degree to get to medical school. 428 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,160 And I realized that that worked very well with my personality, like helping others achieve 429 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:06,640 their goals and helping people identify resource and all of that. 430 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:12,360 And then when the opportunity was open to submit applications to be an associate for 431 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:17,240 students affairs, to be honest, I felt like I was not ready. 432 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,760 That was four years ago. 433 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:24,560 And I got so many emails from older people here saying, Leonor, you need to apply, Miss 434 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,400 Royce for you. 435 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,960 And I was like, oh, I don't know. 436 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,120 Sometimes we are like that as junior faculty, we are like, oh, I don't deserve it or I'm 437 00:27:33,120 --> 00:27:34,120 not ready. 438 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:40,320 But because I got at least 10 emails from senior individuals saying like, go for it. 439 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,760 Well, I submitted my application. 440 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:49,640 I went to all the eight panels of the interviews, which was the most intense interview process 441 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,880 I've done in my life. 442 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,520 And then when I got the call from our vice dean of education saying, well, Leonor, everybody 443 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:57,520 seems to like you. 444 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,960 I want to offer you the job. 445 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:05,320 I accepted the job without asking, which is, remember my first advice to all of you, you 446 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,920 not sign anything without knowing what you're getting into. 447 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:09,920 But I say yes. 448 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,160 And I don't regret it. 449 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,360 It was the best decision I made. 450 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:19,520 And then my other leadership role being the CTSI came from works that I was doing with 451 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:20,960 one of our colleagues here. 452 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,680 I was the director for one of her projects, a population health mapping project. 453 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,480 And then that project went very well. 454 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,120 It was for her and the chancellor. 455 00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:34,480 And then when the opportunity came for the CTSI, she was like, oh, Leonor, do you want 456 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:39,840 to join the CTSI as the associate director of the community engagement core? 457 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,040 And I say yes. 458 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,720 And then that's how I ended transitioning to leadership and education versus fully research 459 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:47,720 work. 460 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,760 That is so awesome. 461 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:55,520 You know, one of the things that comes up in your story, Leonor, is that you saw, well, 462 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,440 actually, you were in the right place at the right time. 463 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,840 So you're connecting with the right people, doing the right things. 464 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,820 And then when an opportunity comes up, somebody invites you to it and you are paying attention 465 00:29:04,820 --> 00:29:08,840 to opportunity and recognizing a good opportunity when it comes. 466 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,560 And I think I appreciate that you share that because to be honest, that's how many of our 467 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,820 careers are serendipity. 468 00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:16,140 But it's not just luck. 469 00:29:16,140 --> 00:29:21,640 It's that because I'm showing up, because I'm clear about what I value, what I'm interested 470 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,560 in, the moment I'm showing up so people are able to offer me opportunities, but also when 471 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,640 the opportunity comes, I recognize it as an opportunity because I've been doing the work 472 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,920 of clarifying what I want to do. 473 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:39,000 And so it's beautifully said, because I think sometimes there's frustration from those of 474 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,480 us who are early career looking ahead saying, but how did you figure it out? 475 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:43,920 How did you get here? 476 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,720 And there's not necessarily like a puzzle that you're putting together to get here. 477 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,600 You're literally just taking one step at a time and the road is becoming clear in front 478 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:53,600 of you. 479 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,400 I wonder if that's fair to say. 480 00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:02,520 Yes, I think you nicely summarize exactly how I feel about my journey. 481 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:08,160 I feel that I'm very open to change. 482 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,200 I'm not afraid of change, which is something you have to embrace in academia because change 483 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:19,080 is inevitable, especially in the times we live where things are changing constantly 484 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,520 and embracing change with joy. 485 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:27,520 I think all our conversation today, joy will be the word and the feeling that I hope everybody 486 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,880 take and I put all my energy and effort and a hundred percent to it. 487 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,680 And people notice, I also share that with my students. 488 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:43,760 So I have done so many free things here at this institution that people were like, why 489 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,920 are you giving your free labor here? 490 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,920 And the reality was because I enjoy it. 491 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:55,360 And that free labor actually opens a lot of doors for me. 492 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,640 And I know as junior faculty, sometimes you will get the advice of learning how to say 493 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:05,920 no, but I actually changed that advice a little bit and say, learning how to say yes to the 494 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:11,280 right opportunities that are right for your values that are aligned with what you want 495 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,600 to do. 496 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,320 Because even when they are for free at the beginning, they will open a lot of doors that 497 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:25,120 will co-work effort and salary support, but you have to be open to embrace them. 498 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:32,320 I'm not asking every junior people that are listening to the podcast to just do free comedies, 499 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:33,320 every comedian. 500 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:34,840 That's not what I'm saying. 501 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,720 What I'm saying is that if an opportunity comes your way that is in alignment with what 502 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:45,280 brings you that joy that I keep talking about, take it because at the end you're going to 503 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,000 do a good job and people are going to notice. 504 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,720 And then when opportunities come with salary support and effort, you will be the first 505 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,720 name in their head. 506 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,520 And that's my whole story. 507 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,400 People knew I was doing things and when opportunity came, they were like, oh, Leonor will be great. 508 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,400 And then I will say, okay, now I need effort. 509 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,360 Do you have money to pay for my effort? 510 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:11,360 And they will say yes. 511 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,360 But if I haven't done the other free things before, I don't think people will have their 512 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,200 mind and their minds to consider. 513 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:26,040 That is so beautifully said, Leonor, and again, you speak to showing up and however you show 514 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,840 up and showing up joyfully and that helps people know that I like to work with Leonor. 515 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:31,840 How can I make it? 516 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,640 I got to make this more concrete and that those are opportunities that have come. 517 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,640 That's so awesome. 518 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,640 Wow. 519 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,880 We are at the end of this episode and to be honest, I wish we could keep going because 520 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,920 you've got so many amazing gems that you've just been dropping all along the way. 521 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,560 I have to go back and reflect on this episode. 522 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,640 But I do want to ask though, if there's anything you feel like we've left unsaid over the course 523 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,080 of the episode, what would you like to share with our audience as we close? 524 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,320 Yes, I can believe that time went so fast. 525 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,720 I also enjoyed this conversation a lot. 526 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:13,880 I want to make sure people don't misinterpret my joyfulness with not having faced struggles 527 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,880 because I think that's also really important. 528 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,600 It hasn't been an easy journey. 529 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:20,600 I had to work a lot. 530 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:29,160 I have neglected a lot of my personal life in a lot of ways, which I regret. 531 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,160 But if I go back, I don't regret it. 532 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,880 I think I'm being able to achieve a lot. 533 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,720 But at the end, you will have to sacrifice. 534 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:47,520 There's always this journey, no matter if we sing a cadena or whatever journey you pursue, 535 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,200 you will have to make sacrifice. 536 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:58,480 And what is important to think is, are the sacrifices are making worth making for what 537 00:33:58,480 --> 00:33:59,920 I'm going to get at the end? 538 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,520 Because I don't want this episode to be all like Leona is joyful. 539 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,320 She does whatever you enjoy. 540 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,560 It's true, but I have challenges. 541 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:15,640 It hasn't been an easy journey for me as an individual from a minority background with 542 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:22,680 a big accent in an institution where I was very the minority when I got here. 543 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:27,800 I don't want to say I've been lucky, but I've been blessed to have good mentors that actually 544 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:28,800 helped me. 545 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,680 So this journey, but every day I encounter challenges. 546 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,320 It's not that I don't. 547 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,040 And I don't want to make sure I want to make sure people realize that. 548 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,880 You can still embrace the challenge and enjoy it. 549 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,120 Recognizing that it's part of life. 550 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,520 It's not only at the beginning. 551 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:49,520 Living comes with challenges. 552 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,800 You just need to learn what to do with them and keep going. 553 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,360 So I don't know if that's the end you wanted to get for your. 554 00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,560 It absolutely is. 555 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,060 It's beautifully said. 556 00:35:01,060 --> 00:35:05,240 It's beautifully said because it's like, it's going to be challenging no matter what you 557 00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:06,240 choose. 558 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:11,280 So if you choose a challenge that you actually will feel at the end, you're like, okay, that 559 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:12,760 was a challenge I worked through. 560 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,840 I feel good about that rather than a challenge where you're like, what was the point of that? 561 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:24,960 I think in retrospect, you want to look back and say, okay, it was a hard journey, but 562 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:31,560 I feel proud of myself that I was able to overcome any challenge and I feel joyful and 563 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,560 didn't lose myself in the process, which is actually what I hope for everybody pursuing 564 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,200 this career in academic medicine. 565 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,520 And that is the last word. 566 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,880 I want to thank everybody for listening. 567 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,000 That was such a powerful episode. 568 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,520 Please share this with others who want to live joyfully within the academy while also 569 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:52,640 navigating challenges. 570 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,800 Leonor, thank you so much for being on the show. 571 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:56,920 Thank you for having me. 572 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,720 Have a wonderful rest of your day. 573 00:35:58,720 --> 00:35:59,720 I will you too. 574 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:00,720 All right, everyone. 575 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:15,840 I'll see you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast. 576 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:21,200 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast where academic 577 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:26,600 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 578 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,000 have a mentor. 579 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,960 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 580 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:35,840 Someone else needs to hear it. 581 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,900 So take a minute right now and share it. 582 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:45,360 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 583 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:58,880 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health