1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,200 Now introducing your host, Tracey Onwemona. 12 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,080 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:07,440 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to have you on the show. 14 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,640 Today, I'm especially excited because we have a very special guest, Dr. Robert Winn, and 15 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,400 he's got so many, so many wonderful things to share, so many deep insights. 16 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,920 I can't wait for him to share them with you. 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,120 I just want to say, Dr. Winn, welcome to the show. 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,600 Yo, you know what? 19 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:25,960 Thank you for having me and appreciate it. 20 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:27,440 Oh, it's our pleasure. 21 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:33,040 So, Dr. Nguyen, there's so much I could say about you, but I'd love for you to introduce 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:40,280 yourself, but not just you as the researcher, as the very successful scientist and leader, 23 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:46,760 but introduce yourself even from your early beginnings in academic medicine and the secret 24 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:51,000 sauce that brought you to this spot where you are today. 25 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,600 So it's a little bit like, you know, we used to say, you know, I didn't look for thug life, 26 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:56,600 thug life found me. 27 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,560 Well, I ain't looked for medicine. 28 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,600 It literally found me. 29 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,520 And what I mean by that is that I'm the example of when people see things in you before you 30 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,520 even recognize them within yourself. 31 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,720 And so, you know, I always sort of say to people, they look at me now and they say, 32 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,280 oh my God, you must have been always, you know, focused and, you know, knew you were 33 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:16,280 going to do this. 34 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,360 And they say, I did not. 35 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:25,560 But what I was, was curious enough to understand what an opportunity not to say no. 36 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:30,840 And so the story goes that, you know, as I was growing up, I really wasn't thinking about 37 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,280 becoming a doctor, let alone doing research. 38 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,240 I mean, I literally was focused on trying to, you know, make some cash and, you know, 39 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,960 I was thinking about working at GM and, you know, being the youngest formed over at GM 40 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,840 and luckily that did not work out. 41 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:48,880 You know, there were other plans and those other plans were that, you know, I'd wind 42 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,800 up going to, you know, University of Notre Dame. 43 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:58,340 And then I'd run into amazing people who actually, again, got me on a different path because 44 00:02:58,340 --> 00:03:03,600 I was maybe suspect that they saw something in me, but not actually resistant. 45 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:09,120 It's a common theme for me in the context of, you know, wanting to do research, basic 46 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:10,200 science. 47 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,480 This was not something that inherently I grew up with or even was exposed to. 48 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,620 But I think when I got my first taste of it and having, you know, people around campus 49 00:03:18,620 --> 00:03:22,600 at that time, University of Michigan, Francis Collins was there, there was a significant 50 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:29,320 influence on sort of saying, huh, it's interesting that I could actually help out my people and 51 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:30,320 do research. 52 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:35,360 And by the way, instead of just helping out the patient in front of me, if I came up with 53 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:41,640 something, right, I could really help communities times a hundred or a thousand. 54 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:46,760 And so that really kind of got me into the, you know, the mindset that I could become 55 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:47,760 a researcher. 56 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:49,960 And I'm so glad I did. 57 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:55,120 Not because it was just purpose of just generating paper, because it gave me not only a way of 58 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:00,160 thinking, but a lifestyle, a lifestyle of not only being curious, but a lifestyle of 59 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:05,600 being analytical in that kind of sense of being able to be critically minded. 60 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,960 And when I actually think about certain things, which is extended, interesting, all the way 61 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:14,360 into my work, into this sort of community to bench model where we really put community 62 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:20,880 first, the scientific principle and the scientific approaches are still really, really relevant 63 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:27,480 as I run a cancer center or when I'm out doing community based participatory activities. 64 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:32,340 So it's interesting that in my life, it is not so much that I found it as if the steps 65 00:04:32,340 --> 00:04:39,680 were ordered so that it, in this case, science would find me. 66 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,600 And so, I mean, as usually the best way to put it, you know, I mean, I, you know, I am 67 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,520 the product of what happens when you have federal programs from like Head Start at a 68 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:53,320 teenage mom to, you know, the minority supplement awards that came with NIH to all of those 69 00:04:53,320 --> 00:05:00,360 things that when you invest in us, the ROI can be great. 70 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:05,160 And so again, you know, that's my story and I'm straight up sticking to it. 71 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,440 Thank you, Dr. Nguyen. 72 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:08,760 That was super awesome. 73 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:09,760 Thank you. 74 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:10,760 Thank you for sharing. 75 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,840 Because what I hear in that is the legacy piece. 76 00:05:13,840 --> 00:05:17,080 Like I can contribute to something greater than myself. 77 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:24,840 I think many young people and especially underrepresented faculty in the academic medicine want to have 78 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:28,560 that same kind of impact, but they experience barriers. 79 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:33,480 And I, you know, I think every generation feels like them barriers are more significant 80 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,840 than the generations that came before them. 81 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:41,320 But there is a sense that there is less incentive and less investment in clinicians today in 82 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:42,320 becoming researchers. 83 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,200 Can you speak to that? 84 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,560 What's different today compared to when you came up in research? 85 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:49,560 I think it's a mindset. 86 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,320 Actually, I started thinking about the money. 87 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,280 And if you look at the money, right, the gross amount, some money that are being spent right 88 00:05:56,280 --> 00:06:00,920 now versus what was being spent, I'm not quite sure that the money's not there. 89 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:07,140 But what I'm sure is that the mindset and the, and really the focus, right, there was 90 00:06:07,140 --> 00:06:12,900 once upon a time where we really focused on understanding that there were lower numbers 91 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:17,200 of minorities that were part of our medical school and lower numbers of minorities that 92 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:19,180 were part of the science field. 93 00:06:19,180 --> 00:06:24,680 And then there was a societal sort of center, we should do something about that. 94 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,440 What's eroded isn't the money. 95 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:33,520 What's eroded is that ethos of making sure that we included diversity and that it was 96 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,200 good for all of us. 97 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,840 You know, the funny part is I used to talk about, you know, generation, you know, one 98 00:06:40,840 --> 00:06:44,160 of my ex, whatever the hell, you know, but I'm definitely not a millennial. 99 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:45,160 I know that. 100 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,360 So it was either ex or wherever in that zone, that early ex, whatever that was. 101 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,960 And we, you know, we always dogged out, you know, the millennials and everything that 102 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:52,960 came after. 103 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:53,960 I don't even know where you're at. 104 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,040 X, Y, Z, A, I don't know. 105 00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:01,120 But whatever is after us, we have done, I think all of us are dissatisfied by the following 106 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,400 narrative. 107 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,200 You guys are softer. 108 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,280 Here's the reality that I was just talking with Dr. Vivian Penn, who's also a giant in 109 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:15,520 our field, and without folks like Vivian Penn, I don't have a foundation to then stand on 110 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,720 to take things to the next level. 111 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:21,360 She and I were talking and she said something that was really just made a light bulb. 112 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,560 She said, now listen, you know, the difference is that our generation, meaning the baby boomers 113 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,800 and the exes, we didn't know what better looked like. 114 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,080 It wasn't there. 115 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,740 We were all struggling to quote get there. 116 00:07:35,740 --> 00:07:43,040 But generations that came after us actually had a taste of what good was. 117 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,920 And in front of your eyes, you're seeing it eroded. 118 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,240 Now when we talk about that, we don't really talk about these generational differences about 119 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,200 what makes it different when I don't expect that anybody's going to give me anything. 120 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:02,060 When I expect that there's going to be obstacles, because I assume that no one, even in getting 121 00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:07,240 as a 10 year old chocolate from a white store that when I went into a neighborhood and being 122 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,240 able to be like shook, you know, shaking down and like, yo, why you in here buying a snicker 123 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:12,240 bar? 124 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:13,240 I'm like, because my daddy gave me a quarter. 125 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:14,240 You know what I'm saying? 126 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:19,680 That was an expectation that there was going to be obstacles and that there wasn't anybody 127 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,120 that was going to set up something for me. 128 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:22,120 I was like, what? 129 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,680 You know, people would say, well, don't you expect that they're going to... No, my expectation 130 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,880 was that there was going to definitely be like, that's not you, you don't belong here. 131 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:30,880 That was, I mean, it's straight up. 132 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:32,880 I can't even lie about it. 133 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,680 So I had to change my mental and say, but what if I grew up in generations where the 134 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:42,880 expectation was that things weren't supposed to be the same and that we, as a result of 135 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:47,720 the previous generation, had a more of a taste of that, right? 136 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:54,240 What then happens is if in my lifetime, I'm now seeing things roll back. 137 00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:02,080 That mental allows for a sense of saying that you're seeing loss as opposed to understanding 138 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:07,680 that we already were in the negative column and people were going to keep you in the negative 139 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:10,520 column and that was just normalized. 140 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:15,800 What actually happens in the generations that followed when that wasn't the mindset that 141 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,820 not having was normalized and having was to say, yeah, we're supposed to? 142 00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:26,160 So I'm actually sort of saying to you in a very roundabout way that I think when we come 143 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:31,600 to obstacles, we have to actually have grace for one another in our cultures and our generational 144 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:37,000 differences in a sense of younger people recognizing that people from the ex generation, particularly 145 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,760 early ex, I can't speak for them later exes. 146 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,040 The later exes, I can't speak for them. 147 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,840 I'm talking about the ones right in that baby boom to the early ex. 148 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,840 I can tell you for real, for real that that generation was like me sort of saying that 149 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,080 we were being the last generation of forced busing where we were being integrated and 150 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,520 where we actually were in communities where people didn't want us. 151 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,120 It was an assumption that people didn't want you. 152 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:06,080 It was an assumption that things weren't going to be fair and it was an assumption that there 153 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:07,560 was always going to be obstacles. 154 00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:13,600 So once that's your normal, you're like, yeah, all right, but what would it be like if I 155 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,760 didn't have that mental where I assumed that there was going to be an obstacle and all 156 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:22,800 of a sudden in my mind and in my lifetime, we were seeing those things eroded. 157 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,680 That is a different sort of mentality and that is something that I think when we talk 158 00:10:25,680 --> 00:10:31,360 about intergenerational, I hope we in the future are able to start those discussions 159 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,760 so that the younger generations can have a little bit more grace for the older and that 160 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:40,240 our older sort of generations can have a little bit more grace in understanding what's going 161 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:46,000 on with the framework and the mental of the millennials and all. 162 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,360 So I think that that's an important thing that in a black community in particular that 163 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:54,760 we are not doing that I hope to have future conversations on what that looks like because 164 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,400 I think that there goes the rubs because when I think of obstacles, I'm like, yeah, of course 165 00:10:58,400 --> 00:10:59,400 there's obstacles. 166 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,240 I mean, we were like, well, what do you think about the obstacles? 167 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,440 I mean, I don't know where it was. 168 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:06,440 So, right? 169 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:07,440 I love it. 170 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,400 I appreciate you talking about that. 171 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:12,400 I want to, you know, it's interesting. 172 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,960 So I'm going to go back 10 years when I first started as an early career faculty and there 173 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,200 were these obstacles that I wasn't expecting. 174 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,080 And so when you're speaking, it really speaks to me because I'm like, I was not expecting 175 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:24,080 those obstacles. 176 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:25,300 And you know why? 177 00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:28,040 Because throughout undergrad, I was supported all the way. 178 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,360 And then in medical school, I was mostly supported. 179 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,240 In fact, I was in residency and even in fellowship. 180 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,600 And then I got to the faculty position. 181 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:40,440 And that was where it became clear that there are a lot more obstacles than I had ever experienced. 182 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,680 And when I talk to someone- 183 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,600 So that meant that the early work that we put in was working. 184 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:47,600 That's a great point. 185 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:48,600 That's a great point. 186 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,880 To lead a medical student and to get the residencies and the fellowship supported because my generation, 187 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,080 that was not an easy, like, support of what? 188 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,020 They would be like, man, we hope you go. 189 00:11:59,020 --> 00:12:00,020 We hope you fail. 190 00:12:00,020 --> 00:12:01,020 Right? 191 00:12:01,020 --> 00:12:02,800 It was like, and they were pretty straight up with it. 192 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:03,800 You don't belong here. 193 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,440 And I was like, you're right, but we're going to finish anyway. 194 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,360 So you are right. 195 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:14,960 But what happened was, to your point though, that because of work, we made progress. 196 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,140 Then what happens is that we need to actually make more progress. 197 00:12:18,140 --> 00:12:22,960 But in the current age and what you're getting at is that some of the progress being made, 198 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,640 when you see that roll back, that has to actually hurt in a different way. 199 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:28,640 Okay. 200 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,760 So tell me now, how do we solve this problem? 201 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,200 Because you're tackling this problem at many different levels. 202 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,520 And I'm connected with you because I'm a member of the Wynn Career Development Award. 203 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:40,520 You can say that again. 204 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:41,520 I mean, open it up. 205 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:42,520 You don't know me. 206 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:43,520 You don't know me. 207 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:44,520 I'm a weirdo. 208 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:53,400 So I see you just working hard to remove these obstacles, at least give people tools to 209 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:54,400 scale these obstacles. 210 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,520 But I want you to speak to kind of your general perspective. 211 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:05,160 And maybe if you want to speak for even your generation to the extent that you can, what 212 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:10,320 are the things that you're doing to help us from a younger perspective understand the 213 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,840 sacrifices and the investments that you're continuing to make to move us forward? 214 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:15,840 You know what? 215 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,480 And you just hit the nail on the head, right? 216 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:22,680 There is a level of mission generated that while I think they use a young folks term, 217 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:29,200 I'm into myself, there is a danger of being so much into yourself though that you become 218 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,800 a me as opposed to a we. 219 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:37,760 By the same token, the other philosophy of that there is no me, it's all we, right? 220 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,280 I'm always giving allows for people to be burned out without even knowing. 221 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:47,480 So there's this wisdom that interestingly that I've been watching about how do we move 222 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,120 the needle forward about balance. 223 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,800 Not balance, lifestyle balance and all this stuff. 224 00:13:53,800 --> 00:14:02,040 So you can say what you want to say, but at some point, you ain't going to always be balanced. 225 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,120 Like keeping balanced diet, that takes a lot of strictness and I ain't that strict, right? 226 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,320 So there's some days I'll be like, you know what? 227 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,720 I know that pound cake ain't right, but I'm going to eat it. 228 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:14,720 That's what's going to happen. 229 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,120 I'm going to limit it to one, but I'm going to have a slice of that pound cake, right? 230 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,280 So the reality is that's like life. 231 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:27,000 So as we're talking about how do we move things ahead, it is interesting because the formula 232 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,480 has not changed. 233 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,680 The formula has not changed. 234 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:35,920 It is making sure that we are not only at the table, but having opportunities to set 235 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:36,920 the table. 236 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,440 And what I think we need to do better on is how do we take care of our leaders once they're 237 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,920 there and then how do the leaders take care of our younger generations as they're moving 238 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,080 through to open up doors. 239 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,800 You know, we, you're talking frankly, y'all know what's up. 240 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,600 I mean, sometimes you get one brother, one sister there, they're like, listen, I'm the 241 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:56,600 one. 242 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,040 You know, what's the rest of y'all, right? 243 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:04,200 But then you actually have folks who sort of say we never get to the tables. 244 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,780 And that's the one thing I think we have to continue to fight. 245 00:15:07,780 --> 00:15:08,780 How do we do that? 246 00:15:08,780 --> 00:15:14,440 I do think that there will become a need over the next several years and probably over the 247 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:20,360 next six months and certainly over the next year to double down in being deliberate about 248 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:25,200 being seen, about being at the committees that are making the decisions. 249 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,120 And by the way, I've always, you know, this is straight up hood. 250 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,520 I'm like, if you ain't gonna let me at your table, I'll create a table and we're gonna 251 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,000 actually come with it enough that you're gonna want to be in mine and then we'll figure it 252 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,000 out. 253 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:38,000 That's right. 254 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,560 I do think that this sense of, you know, I mean, not to get all barby like and all the 255 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,640 rest of that, but we do have to wake up to that we have models and we have frameworks 256 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,320 that have already been shown. 257 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:53,840 The problem is that most of those we haven't been passed down and we haven't been taught. 258 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,640 And so I have made it a deal to make sure that I stay in contact with people like Charles 259 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:05,080 Thomas, Theodos Brawley, Lucille Elms-Campbell, Asanya Springfield, the Tom Hage Kings, because 260 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,400 the reality is that there are frameworks that based on their wisdom that they weren't able 261 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:15,680 to do that they would say, if I had an opportunity, here's a model that I would use and I'm, aha. 262 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,640 So I do think that how we're gonna do it, I think we need to have more intergenerational 263 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,120 conversations than we are having now. 264 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,720 And not the kind that are blaming like, ah, you know, I mean, it's true. 265 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:33,780 You know, we, our generation, the baby boomers and the Xers were probably much more in line, 266 00:16:33,780 --> 00:16:38,720 I think, with the experience of having to be super adapters to pain. 267 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:43,840 That is one of the elements that I think as an African American that we have actually 268 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:49,280 become super or have, for whatever reasons we've had to, right, for survival, have to 269 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:56,000 become super adapters to pain, which brings about its own pathology. 270 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,760 And so I readily admit that. 271 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,920 However, what I can say is that you can't be crying if somebody ain't letting you in 272 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:02,920 the door. 273 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,480 They're like, that door wasn't meant for you. 274 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:09,200 So at some point you like, and then when you get there, you're like, oh, I'm all uncomfortable 275 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:10,200 with these people. 276 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:11,800 Of course, but I mean, what the hell? 277 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,520 The dead man's place wasn't made for you. 278 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,760 We have to get there, set the table and say, this is what we're gonna do and this is how 279 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:20,760 I'm gonna do it. 280 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,920 And to be quite honest with you, the whole concept of black excellence and your authenticity 281 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,380 in doing it is scary, right? 282 00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:34,200 Because to make it in those early years, we do have to be able to adapt, not get assimilated. 283 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,400 You see, I ain't saying get assimilated, because some folks get assimilated so much, you're 284 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,120 like, well, come on back. 285 00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:44,760 I wanted to make sure that they understood at all times that the excellence that they 286 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:47,840 were seeing is from me. 287 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,640 And this is the way I came with whatever swag, whether they liked it or not. 288 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,160 And in fact, people say, have you always quoted hip hop artists? 289 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,280 I was like, yeah, since the day I was a woman, Tim's and mine was a resident with a bow tie 290 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,280 and a suit. 291 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,840 And people were like, those are construction, but I was like, don't call them construction 292 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:02,840 boys, they're lieutenants. 293 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:07,960 And in fact, I got my clinical Tim's and then I got the Tim's that I wear when I make rouse, 294 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,760 so they're playing with me, right? 295 00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:14,240 So that sense of pride of I'm bringing all of me. 296 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,920 And because when you see that at the end of the day, when I was a resident, I became resident 297 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:24,680 of the year or intern of the year, that they also saw that I could learn and be me. 298 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,080 And there was a sense of liberation in that. 299 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,520 So how do we get there? 300 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:33,840 More conversations, inter-general conversations, but making sure that we are deliberate in 301 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:39,760 figuring out what are the committees of impact that when we show up, we not only show out, 302 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,880 but we make room for other people to bring them up. 303 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,880 That's what our grandparents taught us. 304 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,840 The reality is we have had various levels of successes of that because sometimes you 305 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,160 can get intoxicated once you get to the tables and figure you the one. 306 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,080 All of a sudden you have all this praise on you, you're this and you're that. 307 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,600 And then all of a sudden you recognize that you're lonely as hell. 308 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,680 Because we have not done what our ancestors and what our grandparents and parents taught 309 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,880 us is that when we come at those tables, we shouldn't just be sitting there. 310 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:17,280 We should be setting part of that table up and bringing our folk up with us. 311 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,720 And I think that that is something that needs to be re-looked at how we can do that. 312 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,880 And the pride of just sort of saying, I understand people like we're just all human beings and 313 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,280 I don't see color, but I'm like, well, like Tiger Wood, everybody else sees it except 314 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,280 for you. 315 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,120 But I mean, you can do what you want to do. 316 00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:37,400 But in this state, in this country, people see it. 317 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:43,520 So why not embrace it and understand that let's lean into it and say, I am this, but 318 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:44,960 also these other things. 319 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:50,520 And this level of Andrew's Lord, I think the poet Lord, we talk about all that stuff about 320 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,680 the intersectionality of things. 321 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:59,360 I am more than just being an African-American, but by and large, I want to make sure that 322 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:01,520 folk understand that I am that. 323 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:02,960 I'm not all of that. 324 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,720 I'm much more than that. 325 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,480 I'm the son of people that lived in rural areas and blah, blah, blah. 326 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,400 All these other things come with it too. 327 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,820 But the fact of the matter is that that's my income and that's where I start from. 328 00:20:13,820 --> 00:20:16,800 And so again, you asked me, how do we make this work? 329 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,440 We know how to make it work. 330 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:19,440 We work hard. 331 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,440 We communicate more. 332 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,480 We need the network better, and we need to make sure that when we're at the tables, we're 333 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,440 now already thinking about not only how long you're going to be there, but who else comes 334 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:30,560 to follow you. 335 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,960 And so instead of just bringing one, how do you bring three? 336 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:33,960 You know what I'm saying? 337 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,520 Kanichi was who take you want to meet all day long. 338 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:38,520 I love it. 339 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,120 I also love the analogy is about grandparents. 340 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:42,640 Because I think about I'm a parent of young children. 341 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:43,640 I think about this a lot. 342 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,320 I think about the grandparents and they don't have the stress that they had when they were 343 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:48,320 parents. 344 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,600 And so I think it's very difficult to teach the younger generation something that perhaps 345 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,040 the parents are too busy right now to teach. 346 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,120 And so I love the idea of the conversations of the older and the younger generation because 347 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:03,280 this idea of like, you expected to be taught is something that I do wish people had shared 348 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:04,280 with me early on. 349 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,420 So I wouldn't have been surprised when these obstacles came. 350 00:21:07,420 --> 00:21:09,440 And so I love what you shared. 351 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,320 And I hope that there are so many more of these opportunities that we can take advantage 352 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,320 of in making these connections. 353 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,440 Oh, well, thank you so much. 354 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,080 Well, you know, I do think that they're important conversations. 355 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,520 And I got to tell you what trips me out is when I'm somewhere and everybody's nice to 356 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:25,520 me, I'm like, what the hell? 357 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,520 Stop it. 358 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:27,520 I mean, hold on. 359 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,360 I'm like, oh, don't somebody go down. 360 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:37,000 I'm like, it's so but that I have to laugh at myself because that is my generation of 361 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,000 how I grew up. 362 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,520 Because when you like, yeah, I know that with the exit. 363 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:43,520 Yeah. 364 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,160 And my sense of the exit, I mean, sometimes I'll be like, literally a case in the room 365 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:49,480 these days, like, where's the exit? 366 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,760 So these people be too damn nice. 367 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,240 What's up? 368 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,420 And so it's wonderful, though, to see that we can change. 369 00:21:56,420 --> 00:21:59,920 But I think that we have the elephant in the room is that we have to recognize that we 370 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:06,960 have also live in a generation now where there is a actual push to go backwards. 371 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:13,640 And part of that is a fear of change, and part of that is a fear that we have not always 372 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,840 as we've risen, made sure that we made sure that we've made sure that everyone is still 373 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,400 visible. 374 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,740 We have invisible communities, which is why I work so hard and making sure that as we're 375 00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:29,940 pushing the science and we're pushing the clinical trials and we're pushing these things, 376 00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:35,320 that we also are not locked in into just pushing it for our communities, but making sure that, 377 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,800 for example, rural underserved communities, which are not just all white, but even those 378 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:45,360 that are homogeneous white within the eastern parts of Kentucky benefit from our science. 379 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,360 The truth of the matter is that if it only benefits the people that come to my hospital, 380 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:52,880 then we fail because most people aren't getting to our hospitals. 381 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:59,840 And so the question becomes, how do we make communities, just like Brother Hampton said, 382 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,800 that Brother Hampton was one of my... 383 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,120 I mean, listen, I know I'm talking Panther. 384 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:08,720 But if I had to pick a Panther, it was Fred Hampton because Fred Hampton was the first 385 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,720 that sort of said power to the people. 386 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,640 It wasn't just power to black people. 387 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:14,640 It was power to the people. 388 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,480 And the first Rainbow Coalition before there was a Jesse Jackson was with Fred Hampton, 389 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:25,140 who understood the power that we all actually have sometimes similar struggles and we should 390 00:23:25,140 --> 00:23:26,400 benefit from those things. 391 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,160 In our case, people should benefit, all people, from our medicines. 392 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,400 And all people should benefit from our research. 393 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,640 And all people should benefit from the molecules that becomes medicines, that become trials, 394 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,160 that become really extension of healthcare to make people's life healthier. 395 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,360 And that philosophy, I think it was not new. 396 00:23:45,360 --> 00:23:49,680 That's not a new 21st century philosophy or post Obama and all the rest of that. 397 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,680 I mean, I never bought it to the post-racial thing anyways, but for sure this wanting to 398 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,880 be that we are the world, we are one is okay. 399 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,520 But understand, we don't have to be all of that and still not be us. 400 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,000 It's my responsibility as a cancer center director to make sure definitely that the 401 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,120 science that I do actually helps hopefully to inspire and hopefully impact African-American 402 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:12,120 communities. 403 00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:17,120 But if it's not actually hitting Asian communities, Latino communities, rural communities, and 404 00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:24,000 even urban, very rich white communities, then I'm not doing my job. 405 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,320 So this is a wonderful thing of being both, right? 406 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:30,960 That both can exist at the same time, which I'm really digging. 407 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:37,800 I think, and you set up the stage perfectly for us to talk now about the Robert Winn Diversity 408 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,000 in Clinical Trials program. 409 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,560 And can you just speak about that program? 410 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,880 How does it fit within all that you've been sharing? 411 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:45,880 What is this program? 412 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:51,640 Yeah, I learned from John DeMonte, you know, saying from Maya Angelou, and that is that 413 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,240 to change the system, you just can't do something different. 414 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,540 You have to do a different thing. 415 00:24:58,540 --> 00:25:00,200 So here was the deal. 416 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,520 We know that we have people who are very good people in outreach and engagement, but most 417 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:10,340 of those folks are not aware of the difficulties and the pain or the knowledge and the expertise 418 00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:13,520 of how do you get a molecule to become a medicine. 419 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,400 So that's a weakness. 420 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:22,280 Then you have people who are physicians, well-intended clinical trialers who want to make high impact 421 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,640 trials or doing basket trials or pragmatic trials or doing all these things. 422 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,320 But we ain't got no freaking clue about the, I didn't just say outreach and engagement. 423 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,160 I said the science of outreach and engagement. 424 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:41,600 The program was meant to recognize that there was a big hole since the advent of clinical 425 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,080 trials that we did not develop a quarterback for clinical trials. 426 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:51,520 And what I mean by that is that someone who had knowledge of both how to design and implement 427 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:58,160 a high impact trial and also that same person may not have the complete expertise, but was 428 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:04,560 aware and had some expertise in the science of outreach and engagement. 429 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,120 And why do I say the science of outreach and engagement? 430 00:26:07,120 --> 00:26:11,720 Well the science of outreach and engagement or the science of community-based type approaches 431 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,960 means that it is built on literature, which there's a 40 plus year history on this. 432 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:21,840 It also is built on frameworks so that when I design and implement my trials, the goal 433 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,760 was to not only have someone design the arm one and arm two and we're going to have these 434 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:33,640 two arms, but as they're developing their protocols, that at every step of the way, 435 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:39,200 they're developing also a parallel protocol on how they're going to get more people from 436 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,520 challenged backgrounds onto those studies. 437 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,680 You know, my dream was to actually have one of my scholars, if you will, actually come 438 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,000 up with a protocol that looked like not just here's a protocol of how we get more people 439 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,320 on to clinical trials or say in this case African-American to rural or here's an event 440 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:01,520 this is my trial, but to imagine a world in which we challenge the entire world of doing 441 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,080 something different. 442 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,840 And we actually meld with those two that as the same time we were actually designing and 443 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:14,040 implementing a trial for getting rural patients with GLEO, you know, with GBMs, how do we 444 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:19,360 get them onto trials that we would actually also be solving the problem of, yeah, here's 445 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:26,160 a wonderful high impact trial for GBMs and other neurocancers, but we were also putting 446 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:32,520 equal amount of attention to how do we leverage communities to help us get more people on. 447 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,720 How do we connect with primary care doctors? 448 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,560 How by the way, when we communicate, what's the effect of communication? 449 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,180 How do we use asset maps, both functional, which is a new word, functional asset mapping 450 00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:46,520 and asset mapping? 451 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:52,160 How do we put all of those, so not that it exists in one person, but that they are aware. 452 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,000 For example, a quarterback of a team or a point guard has to know all the other positions, 453 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,000 they don't play all the other positions, but they have to be aware of how things work so 454 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,920 that they can get from point A to point B to make a play. 455 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:12,120 We did not have that person in any of our clinical training period. 456 00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:18,280 So I said, well, since I don't see it, I ain't asking no questions, let's just do it. 457 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,800 And in fact, people would say, well, that's, wow, that's going to be a lot of work and 458 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:22,800 it's crazy. 459 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,220 You're like, yeah, it's a lot of work, but every big thing is going to be a lot of work. 460 00:28:27,220 --> 00:28:30,920 So it really is trying to make sure that the first and the second and the third pancakes, 461 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:35,560 they get better and better with iteration on what does it look like when you have someone 462 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,320 who actually not only understands regulatory and how to get things from a molecule to a 463 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,920 medicine into a trial and all the arms of a trial, but also they're understanding the 464 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:50,240 difficulty and saying, yep, this is what we'll have to do operationally and from a protocol 465 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,680 wise for this trial to actually have this percentage or to have this many people from 466 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:56,920 the rural area. 467 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,200 This is what I'm going to have to integrate into my protocol and take into account to 468 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,840 get that outcome. 469 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,960 Now that is a new idea. 470 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,240 Back in the old days, up in the 80s and 90s, we'd be saying like, that's fat, but I'm going 471 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:11,720 to be like, yo, that's hot. 472 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,640 So that's what we're going for. 473 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,520 Now the reality is, will we get there immediately? 474 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,520 We won't. 475 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:22,120 But just like everything, to get to the moon or to get to immunotherapy, nobody cries and 476 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:28,720 we talk about it took 125 years from Cooley to all these other things to get to the checkpoint 477 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,800 inhibitors, nobody cried that it took 125 years and there were some setbacks. 478 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:40,200 So quit playing with me that this concept of having a group of, for the first time, 479 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:46,280 first trained people in the country and maybe actually in the world, because I've checked, 480 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,600 who are being taught and tried to train and what happens when you are skilled and you 481 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,360 have two kids and extra teeth in both, what happens? 482 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,480 I think it's going to be a game changer. 483 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,560 That's going to take a while, but that's why, look here, Dr. Ode, this is why I'm so proud 484 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:04,560 of you. 485 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:08,200 I'm like, girl, listen, listen, you don't know how, look, I'm smiling ear to ear. 486 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,200 My heart, you know what I'm saying? 487 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:15,120 It's big, I'm just saying, because y'all will make the difference and be the game changers 488 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,240 and really sort of set it off in a way that I'm just excited about seeing how that's going 489 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,240 to go down. 490 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,200 I'm excited to be part of the program. 491 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,320 I thank you for your vision and building it together, because one of the things that I 492 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:34,080 see is that there is an expectation that clinicians are going to finish clinical training and 493 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:39,520 then all of a sudden be experts in research and not even to talk about being the science 494 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,120 of community engagement. 495 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,040 And I love that you emphasize that as well. 496 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,720 It's like, well, clinical training should be about clinical training, but then the next 497 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:52,000 step of training so that we can build diversity in clinical trials, actually it needs to happen. 498 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:57,560 And so it's almost like, you know, the program is novel, it's amazing. 499 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,280 And it's also like, but why haven't we been doing this all along? 500 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,440 Why have we assumed that it was just all going to work out? 501 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,240 And so I just want to thank you. 502 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,400 You're a trailblazer in so many ways. 503 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:16,280 And I mean, thank you. 504 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:17,280 You know what I want to say? 505 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,080 I want to say you're not just reaching out, you're not just reaching physicians, you're 506 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:23,760 going further back. 507 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,560 Talk about the CIPP pathway. 508 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,800 Well, you know, it's going to be, you know, the reality is this is all about the phase 509 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:31,800 game. 510 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,240 So we have it moving forward and moving back. 511 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,040 We actually recognize, and at some point we'll get into the high schools and middle schools, 512 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,500 but you know, right now you got to take a step at a time when you're building this program. 513 00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:44,520 We have a component of taking those young, those young minds, people in medical school 514 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,360 who haven't even thought about careers in oncology or haven't thought about careers 515 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,760 in cardiology or haven't even thought about being clinical trialists. 516 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:57,000 They just, and being able to expose them to you guys and expose them to the science and 517 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,840 expose them to the importance of having a life of academic relevance. 518 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,040 I say the people that my first half of my life was signatured by just pursuing academic 519 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,240 excellence because that's what I was taught. 520 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,960 But at some point I had to transition from chasing academic excellence and making that 521 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,880 excellence turn into being academically relevant and ultimately looking at just from innovation 522 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,040 to actually having a life of impact. 523 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,040 And when you start putting that in front of these young people, and all of a sudden light 524 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,320 bulbs go on and that's like the most amazing thing to see. 525 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,080 By the way, the wonderful thing about this program is that it's growing in ways, leaps 526 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,840 and bounds that I did not expect, you know, when I came out with this. 527 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,720 I mean, sometimes, you know, some of y'all didn't know that this was supposed to be only 528 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,040 a pilot grant for VCU. 529 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,600 That's how it started. 530 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,680 And then after George Floyd, John DeMonte, who is from Bristol Mines Squibb Foundation, 531 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,680 called me up and said, Dr. Wynn, we need to go big. 532 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:52,880 And we did. 533 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,880 By the way, that's one of the people you want to talk about a game changer when it comes 534 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:00,480 in the context of Canton, the context of how foundations can give resources to change the 535 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:01,480 world. 536 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,720 Before there was a PEPFAR and all the rest of these things, there was a John DeMonte 537 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:12,080 who got Bristol Mines Squibb Foundation before there was anyone else to actually get into 538 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,840 Africa and give HIV drugs and figure out how to do that. 539 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:16,840 That was John. 540 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:22,520 And in fact, there have been several prime ministers who've gotten up and said that John 541 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:29,360 DeMonte from Bristol Mines Squibb Foundation has saved generations of young Africans because 542 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:30,360 of his work. 543 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,640 There are men like that that come in your life and people like that, Catherine Grimes, 544 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:39,120 John DeMonte and others who come into your life who you just sort of say, yo, let's go 545 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,820 do this. 546 00:33:40,820 --> 00:33:47,300 So in addition to having a medical student program, we now have for the Wynn CDA scholars 547 00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:54,800 another three-year program and being part of what we call the cooperative group trials 548 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,280 and cancer cooperative group trials. 549 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,920 Also we have now developing with a group of cardiology within the AHA that there's an 550 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,000 additional three years of additional training. 551 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,200 And we're about to actually play with the concept of we know people are going on a form 552 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,960 of two, how do we give opportunities and exposure to that? 553 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:18,040 So my job is really just to say we about training the next generation with one caveat that I'm 554 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,240 not just training somebody who just do clinical trials. 555 00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:24,600 We talk in clinical trials plus. 556 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:30,560 And the plus is how do we get the best, most effective clinical trials and how do we get 557 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:37,240 the most number of people from diverse backgrounds onto those trials? 558 00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:40,880 And that is a science and that is a skill set. 559 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,320 And that is something that as you guys even perfect, I think that you will be the first 560 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:51,020 generation of people who will be widely recruited in the context of your ability to do that. 561 00:34:51,020 --> 00:34:52,020 Because you know what? 562 00:34:52,020 --> 00:34:56,280 Turns out the FDA and other people are going to expect big pharma companies and others 563 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,460 to actually have diversity on a clinical trial. 564 00:34:58,460 --> 00:35:03,220 So interesting, it's building the workforce that we are going to need for tomorrow. 565 00:35:03,220 --> 00:35:05,440 That's the best part of this. 566 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,440 That's beautiful. 567 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,000 That's so awesome. 568 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000 And the innovation of it is awesome. 569 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,800 Actually, as you were talking, I'm like, you're kind of building the bridge as you are like 570 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,800 speeding on it. 571 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,800 But I got y'all. 572 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:21,800 Y'all make me look good. 573 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,120 Y'all be coming up with these trials. 574 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,120 The other day I saw I was actually one of the scholars was actually doing his work and 575 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,280 he said, and so I automatically had this thing about I wanted to get more African Americans 576 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,000 on it because this trial of prostate cancer until in my head I was doing this protocol. 577 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,880 And so I integrated the protocol with my protocol. 578 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,160 Now I don't show that to you know the drug, but I'm just showing you Dr. Wynn that here's 579 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,200 from the very first step I was like, well, these neighborhoods I've had obstacles and 580 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,840 so this is what I've not needed to do. 581 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,880 And I said, you should write a paper about that. 582 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,640 That is the beauty of what's going down. 583 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:55,640 Yeah. 584 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:56,640 Yeah. 585 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:57,640 Y'all doing it. 586 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,360 You know me, I'm just, you know, I just, you know, I set it up. 587 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,440 I ain't the one, you know, I like Moses. 588 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,440 I ain't going to get to the promised land with y'all. 589 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,960 Y'all gonna get there, but I'm going to be so proud when you do. 590 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,720 And it's, it's what you're speaking to is that just the power of community and all our 591 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:16,320 different roles, but how important we all are in moving the workforce. 592 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,320 No, it's phenomenal. 593 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,320 I'm telling you it's like Wu-Tang. 594 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:20,320 It ain't about me. 595 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,320 It's Wu-Tang. 596 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:22,320 Oh, he talk about all day. 597 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:28,440 Oh, Dr. Wynn, it's been, it's been such a pleasure talking with you. 598 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:29,920 We're coming to the end of the show. 599 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,920 And I want to ask you, we've said a lot and then there are things we haven't even talked 600 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,880 about, but you know, just thinking about just wrapping up our conversation. 601 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:46,280 What is one thing that you feel like is left unsaid that you want to share with our audience? 602 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,880 Drake started from the bottom. 603 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,880 Now we're here. 604 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:50,880 You know what I'm saying? 605 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,680 He started from the bottom, now the whole crew's here. 606 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:54,920 Like let's rise. 607 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:56,240 We turning it up. 608 00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:57,240 Let's make it happen. 609 00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:01,560 And the reality is I ain't worried about a little white noise and all the other stuff 610 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,800 and the distractions. 611 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:03,920 Let's get focused. 612 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:04,920 Let's get locked in. 613 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:09,960 Let's understand that the success that we have is being watched and the success we have 614 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,320 will build on other successes of the future. 615 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,320 And in fact, to do that, one must have courage. 616 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,600 And with courage comes vulnerability and sometimes risk. 617 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:20,940 But so what? 618 00:37:20,940 --> 00:37:24,960 Because if somebody had to have courage for us to get us this far, somebody had to have 619 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,860 the courage to say something to make sure that our medical schools and our residencies 620 00:37:28,860 --> 00:37:30,400 and our fellowships are better. 621 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,100 Let's continue that courage. 622 00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:33,100 You know what I mean? 623 00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:35,320 Stand up, stand strong, show up. 624 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:36,320 Let's do it. 625 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,480 Because actually our people in our communities are banking on the fact that we can do this. 626 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:44,680 So you know, I'm just like, let's get it done. 627 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,600 That's a perfect place to end. 628 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,240 And I feel like you should stand up now and take a bow. 629 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:54,640 Girl, look, I'm just a little fella trying to do a little something. 630 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:55,640 So that's all. 631 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,560 Dr. Nguyen, thank you so much for being on the show. 632 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,680 It's been a pleasure to have you. 633 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:01,680 You know what? 634 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:02,680 Thank you for having me. 635 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,920 You know, much respect and I'm honored to be on the show and looking forward to the 636 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,720 great things that you're going to do. 637 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:09,720 Thanks, Dr. Nguyen. 638 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:10,720 All right, everybody. 639 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:22,120 We'll see you next time on the Clinician Researcher podcast. 640 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,480 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic 641 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:32,920 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 642 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,280 have a mentor. 643 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:40,240 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 644 00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,120 Someone else needs to hear it. 645 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,160 So take a minute right now and share it. 646 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:51,640 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 647 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,600 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.