Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
program.
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you today.
I'm especially excited about my guest today, Dr. Martha Kenney.
Martha, welcome to the show.
Thank you.
So Martha, would you please introduce yourself to our audience?
Sure.
Where do I start?
Let's see.
I'm a clinician scientist.
Clinically, I'm a pediatric anesthesiologist.
I trained in both pediatrics and anesthesia at Hopkins, and then did a pediatric anesthesia
fellowship and then moved on from there into the clinical workforce and had kind of a torturous
journey to where I am right now.
But in addition to my clinical work, I'm a full-time, like pretty much 70% research right
now, and my research is within sickle cell pain understanding predictors of adverse pain
outcomes in adolescents and young adults with sickle cell disease.
And I also look at disparities and representation of minoritized communities within pain research,
clinical research in general as well.
And in addition to that, I'm a professional coach.
I love to work with women, especially women who are early in their careers, and help them
with career development and time management and to add everything.
You know, the icing on the cake is that I'm a mom of two young kids and a wife, and that's
my pride and joy.
Okay.
So at the beginning, you're doing it all.
I am especially intrigued.
First of all, you are doing, you're a hematologist, even though you're a pediatric anesthesiologist
and your work is in sickle cell, an adult sickle cell for that matter.
I just want to say, how did your research come to be?
What was the journey?
Because when you describe what you do, I'm thinking, I feel like the projects you have
were not handed down to you by a mentor.
I'm wondering, how did you get to be doing what you're doing?
I mean, it's fascinating.
Actually, when I went into medical school, I thought I was going to become a pediatric
hematologist.
And I think, I don't even know at what point I knew what a hematologist was, but growing
up, I knew what sickle cell disease was because of personal experiences that I had.
And also watching a childhood friend who suffered from sickle cell disease.
I'm originally from Ghana, so I saw it in various forms.
And as I got older and can make the connection between these episodes of pain, really excruciating
pain that I witnessed.
And sickle cell disease, I was like, oh, I want to do something to help people like my
friend.
I want to make a difference.
I want to make an impact.
And so the conclusion I came up with was that, well, I have to become a doctor that can take
care of people with sickle cell disease.
So throughout medical school, I thought I was going to become a P's hematologist.
I even took a year off from medical school after 30 years to do research of the NIH and
hematology research.
But towards the end, before I went from my research year, I had done an elective in anesthesia
just out of curiosity.
And I was like, okay, I don't know what anesthesiologists do.
Let me find out.
So I did the elective and I really enjoyed it.
It kind of like, I guess, connected with the side of my brain that really loves pharmacology
and physiology and all of that stuff.
It's some of the excitement that comes along with being in the operating room.
And then during my year of research, I realized that while the research year was very productive
and I enjoyed the actual research, clinically, a monk was not the path for me.
But I was very blessed to have a mentor who was invested in me, I think, as a person.
And my mentor is actually currently also had that.
He was at Hopkins at that time and he's at Duke now.
But my mentor during medical school and residency, he was like, when I said, well, I don't think
I want to do hematology anymore, I felt really bad.
I felt like I was letting down my community for many, many, many years.
I thought I was going to go into this hematology.
But then he really pointed out to me that there was a lot of gaps in care when it comes
to sickle cell pain.
And there was an opportunity for me to develop a niche within that space, whether clinically
or from a research perspective.
So this pivot would actually end up having a huge benefit for me in the long run.
And so I went down, I decided to do both training in pediatrics and anesthesia.
So I did two residencies and then did my fellowship.
And then from there, I had to kind of figure out, well, I'm done with fellowship now.
I've done all the clinical training.
How do I then carve this career that I've always dreamed about?
How do I get back into the sickle cell space and how do I begin to dive into the questions
that are important from a pain perspective?
Wow, that is so, it's a great story.
It's such an amazing story because you thought you were leading the path, but you didn't.
You actually went and created a new path.
Oh my gosh, it's so awesome.
But what I'm really sure I mean, what I, what one thing I would say is that the, the methods
were different, but all along my values were the same.
And my goals, like the values and the intent behind my goals were the same.
I've always wanted to be someone who could serve the community that I came from, help
people who are from, come from a marginalized background.
And that never changed.
So even though I didn't become a hematologist, I'm still doing research in that space because
that is my overarching goal.
That is my overarching why.
And so while the path might look a little bit different, the reason and the purpose
behind the path remained the same.
And that's really amazing.
What strikes me too is the support you had from your mentor.
And I want to just double down on that, right?
Because you said, Hey, I'm leaving the path.
Mentor, you're in hematology.
I'm leading the path.
And your mentor didn't say, Oh, wow, you wasted my time.
You, your mentor helped you see that there was still a path forward while honoring what
you cared about.
Can you speak to that?
I mean, I think being a good mentor is being somebody who's invested in the person, in
your mentee, beyond what they can give to you in that moment of the relationship.
You know, being a good mentor goes beyond this kind of, it's not a transactional relationship.
It shouldn't be that way, but it should be more, I see potential in this person and I
want to help to develop that person.
And I think that for all of us, when we're trying to identify a good mentor, that's something
that we need to look for.
What is the relationship that that person has with their former mentees beyond like
if they are, you know, if you're looking for a K award mentor or whatever kind of mentor,
some kind of career development mentor, think about the relation, ask them about relationships
they have with their former mentees.
Have their former mentees become collaborators?
How have they sponsored them in their career?
Because that is an indication of somebody that is more, will be more invested in you
as a person and wants to develop you as a person.
So that means that they will give you advice and guide you in a way that benefits your
career ultimately rather than themselves.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Now I just want to pause on this because I think that especially people who are underrepresented
in medicine, they can have a lot of mentorship struggles, but to be honest, it's not limited
to the people who are underrepresented.
I think in general, most people struggle with mentoring.
And I think there are, you know, the studies that say even as little as 20% of faculty
feel like they have adequate mentoring.
And this is especially worse for women and people who are underrepresented.
And you know, many times I think there's this advice that you should, you know, you find
the person who has the Nobel Prize or has a three R01 and that's the person who should
be your mentor.
And you're like, oh my gosh, this person is successful.
But can you speak to finding a mentor who cares about you, who cares enough about you
that they actually are going to invest in you and build your career even when potentially
could cost them?
I think the first thing is that one misconception that people have is that they're going to
find that one mentor that checks off all the boxes, right?
There isn't, that doesn't exist.
And so I think we have to think about the areas that we need to develop as a person.
You need a mentor who has expertise in the research path that you're on.
You need a mentor that can act as a sponsor.
Maybe, you know, they're kind of more senior and they're not, you know, getting as many
grants, but they're very well connected and they can connect you with other people.
You need somebody also that can also really provide kind of more of emotional support
and a safe space for you as well.
And so when you think about all of those needs, that means that you really need to focus on
building authentic relationships with people.
And it's, it can't just, it goes back to, it shouldn't just be transactional, right?
It has to be bi-directional.
And I think one of the things that I go into mentoring relationships with is that even
though I may be the most junior person ever, I have the mindset that I have something to
offer them.
If I don't, why are they mentoring me?
Right?
Why are they invested?
You know, I have maybe a unique perspective or background, or maybe, you know, I buy some
of the work that I'm doing, it also is going to benefit their career ultimately as well.
Or maybe I can provide mentorship to, or guidance to some of their other mentees, but there's
something that I am offering in that relationship in addition to them offering something to
me in that relationship as well.
So that is also the mindset that I approach it with.
And then I also look at people who I'm just genuinely interested in, not just their research,
but just them as a person.
You know, how did they get to where they are?
Because maybe they are a vision or a picture of similar to where I want to be in 10 or
15 years.
I'm interested in their hobbies, their behaviors, things that, you know, made them successful,
things that didn't work for them.
And people who are willing to be open about those things are people who I think will make
great mentors as well.
So it's really just authentic relationship, relationship building.
It can be random emails that you send once in a while, but build relationships.
And especially now, during this time in which we're still relying on remote relationships,
you have to be intentional not to just meet remotely, but also have periods where you
meet with a person in person.
Even if it means getting on a plane or flying to their institution, if they're not at your
institution, you'd also need that personal touch as well.
Your words are music to my ears.
Well, I would say, you know, you can do the personal touches via Zoom.
You don't have to fly all the way.
You don't, but I think there is, you know, the conference you planned to do that as well.
Yeah, because they get expensive.
That is true.
But your words are music to my ears, though, really, because I it's one of the it's one
of the gospels that I preach is the gospel of there's not one mentor for you.
Stop looking for that person.
And I think I don't know where this it's a nerve-ridden nudging.
I don't know where it comes from this sense that there's gonna be just one person is gonna
take you from, you know, from rags to riches.
And there is no such person.
And I'm not sure where it comes from.
And people are spending a lot of time looking for that one person.
Well, I love the way you put it, building authentic relationship, not looking for it
as a transactional thing.
I think that's a big deal.
Maybe we can talk about this transaction, because it's a habit in medicine, right?
If you're trying to get into med school, it's like, well, I need to do research, let me
go find some of your research with and then you're trying to get into residency.
It's like, well, I need to publish a few papers and go find someone to do this with.
And we live life as a series of transactions.
And, you know, it works, honestly, but then it gets to a point, especially when it comes
to building your career, where transactions are no longer the way forward.
Can you speak to how do you make that shift from just trying to get a paper, trying to
get the grant to really like doing work you love and working with people who care about
you and that you care about as well?
I mean, it's teamwork, right?
I mean, that's really what it is.
And I don't know, how do you teach someone to be genuinely interested in other people?
I think that's, I feel like that's a little bit difficult.
And I think sometimes the best way to look at it is to just take away that transaction
that you're looking for, right?
And just say that, think about, I really want to talk to Dr. So-so and so because I'm just
interested in hearing about X, I'm interested in hearing about their attorney and really
just be curious.
You have to be curious about people, curious about how they got to where they are, why
they're studying the topics that they are.
I think that curiosity can allow you to be open and really build those relationships.
And it's also important to realize that whether it's writing the papers or getting the grants,
I mean, right now, everything happens through collaboration.
You are not going to have all of the skills that you need to be successful.
It's not, it's not true.
And so you are going to be relying on people to fill in certain gaps that you don't have.
And that's the, you know, I'm not at the R01 stage, I'm on a K award.
But when you get to the R01 stage, that's what it's all about, right?
You know, you have to find a simple team that can fill in the gaps that you as the principal
investigator do not have.
And so that means that those collaborative relationships that work well, you need to
start establishing them early.
And I think you establish them early by just approaching things with curiosity and really
being curious about the person's life, their choices, their successes, things that didn't
work, etc. and just being authentic.
And sometimes that doesn't work.
So you walk away from that relationship.
I've had those kinds of mentor-mentee relationships that drain you.
And you're just like, okay, this is, you know, this person might be a big shot, but it's
not working for me.
I can't be my authentic self, you know, they don't appreciate me for my authentic self.
They don't see the value of the work that I have.
And so especially as a URM person, faculty member, so sometimes you have to walk away
from those relationships.
I remember one company.
You know, when thinking about being underrepresented in this field in general, I think the challenge
when it comes to mentorship for us, I mean, from my perspective, at least, is that a lot
of times the mentors don't come to us, right?
Because oftentimes people are drawn to people whom they have shared experiences with.
And when you're talking about the fact that like less than 5% of physician scientists
are, you know, underrepresented minorities, I think if I have that statistic right, I
know it's super, super low, then who are they going to have shared experiences with?
Usually not us.
And so they're not going to come to us.
So you do have to take the initiative to go seek it.
And in the beginning of my career, when I was 100% clinical, had no structured mentorship
after I finished when I joined faculty at my first position, the way that I took the
initiative is that I spent a lot of time with NIH reporters sending cold emails.
And the people that responded to my emails, it tells a lot about who they are, right?
They get an email from somebody who hasn't published in a long time, who doesn't have
anything important next to their name.
You can't find their name anywhere at NIH reporter, and they have assistant professor
next to their title as well.
And all I had to show at that moment was my interest and my passion.
But yet they responded to that email, and they spent time talking to me, walking me
through certain things.
That tells you a lot about that person.
And so we do have to go out and take that initiative because we often don't have access
to the mentorship that we need.
I love it.
This is so good.
And one thing that I just want to echo is that if you find yourself in a mentoring relationship
where you're trying to impress your mentor, where you're trying to make them see that
you're worthy, don't even invest that energy.
It's not the relationship for you.
It's an abundant world.
You will find other mentors.
Yeah, I love that it is an abundant world.
All right.
I want us to shift gears a little bit because you coach as well.
And I'm excited always to meet a fellow coach.
And I want to know what gaps did you see that made you say, oh, now I'm going to step into
this coaching thing because you're also a mentor.
And so you decided somehow that mentoring wasn't enough and that you were going to go
a step further and coach.
Tell me about that.
Yeah.
I mean, I started coaching because I was coached.
And when I started my faculty position, I knew what I wanted.
I knew that I wanted to really develop a research career.
And I didn't want to just dabble in research.
I wanted to become a full-time researcher.
And I knew that focus was in sickle cell disease.
But unfortunately, I was in a situation where the environment was not conducive to my goals
and my potential was ignored.
It was not recognized no matter what I did.
And so I found myself stuck and not being able to find a way out.
And I knew nothing about coaching at that time.
I thought coaching was for VIP people, people in C-suite.
I didn't know that coaching could be for people like me.
And so I spoke to a friend of mine who is an executive coach.
And I told her about what was happening to me at work and how just unfulfilled I was
and how dissatisfied I was.
And she was like, you need a coach.
And she explained to me that a coach just guides you towards self-awareness.
You as a person, when I coach clients, I believe that my client has all of the resources that
they need to solve their problems.
They're just not aware of those resources and they don't know how to tap into it.
And so you often get stuck.
And so I, as a coach, I'm helping them find the clarity that they need on their own terms
and then also helping them to really take actionable step in the context of where they
are in life and what works for them so that they can really get that transformation of
results that they're looking for.
And that is what coaching did for me.
And a mentor can give you advice, but advice is just advice.
How do I apply that advice in the context of my life in terms of what's worthwhile to
me, what matters to me?
That advice is helpful.
It's the resource, but you're handing me a resource that in this moment I don't know
how to use because I feel powerless.
I feel stuck.
I don't have clarity.
I don't even know what steps to take.
And my coach will help me take that resource and become unstuck and help me overcome mindsets
that are also keeping me back as well.
And so I have such a tremendous experience having a coach.
It really transformed my mindset.
I look at myself from four or five years ago where I am now.
I wouldn't be on this podcast.
My mindset has changed.
Like Martha is a completely different person.
Because of that impact, I'm like, I want to also create that impact for other people as
well.
I also want people to really have these aha moments to overcome these mindsets that become
roadblocks to their success.
And so that is why I also became trained as a coach.
Alice, it's really, it's funny.
Your story resonates with me in so many ways.
I was coached and coaching transformed my academic career.
I mean, I had mentors.
I also had mentors where I dropped along the way.
But coaching really helped me step in the owner's seat of my own career.
And I think that's a challenge.
And the thing that, you know, we didn't, it's kind of like the hidden curriculum.
When you think about the fact that one mentor is not going to be it for you, you're going
to need many mentors, but who's helping you navigate the many mentors that you have?
It's really you.
You're in the driver's seat of your career.
And I think the challenge with our, our academic training, right, is that it teaches us to
be dependent on the person who knows more.
And so we come through this dependency model of med students as residents, as fellows.
Ten years later, all of a sudden we're supposed to turn around and be in charge of our careers
and we don't even have the slightest clue, but everything we need exists inside of us.
We just can't see it.
And so what an opportunity to talk with someone or to have an experience with a coach who
can help you see your leadership for what it is and for you to step into the driver's
seat, become the CEO of your career, navigating these mentors.
Understanding these experiences and really building a career that's truly your own.
And so yeah, coaching is so powerful and I don't know that people understand, or I mean,
you can't, right?
Before you get into it, you have no idea how it's going to transform your life.
So what would you say for the faculty member who's like, oh, I have great mentoring.
I really need a coach.
I don't think I need this thing you're talking about.
What, how should they really be thinking about approaching coaching?
So I, you know, I, when I give talks and coaching, I have this recurrent slide and it's, it's
a picture of Serena Williams.
And it says, if Serena needed a coach, I certainly need one.
And the point that I've make is that we're talking about the best tennis player in the
world.
I don't know if someone's going to contradict me, but you know, she had incredible talent,
but talent is not enough, right?
You know, the, the point of a coach is to really help you and guide you in how you can
use that talent to get the result that you want.
And so her coach on the tennis court was helping her not dim down Serena, but take Serena's
power in her serve and all her energy, right?
And take that to get the result that she wants, which is wins, winning, winning games.
And so I think as a faculty member, you can have a lot of talent.
There's a lot of talented people.
There are a lot of skilled researchers out there, but there are going to be mindsets
that you're a mentor is not even aware of, you know, why is it that you can't submit
that grant?
Why do you keep procrastinating on it?
Why are the papers not getting in?
You know, what's happening with your team dynamics in terms of getting your studies
done?
And there's so many, it could be a mindset that's in the way.
Or why are you just not, you don't feel motivated by that particular question that you're pursuing?
Maybe it's not a worthwhile question for you.
You need clarity on it.
And so a coach is really there to help tap into your inner potential.
And there are a lot of people that go through all of the motions and they have incredible
potential, but nobody taps into it.
So they're not successful.
And it's not because they weren't talented or smart enough.
It's because they didn't have like the resource of a great coach that can really tap into
that.
So if Serena needed a coach, we certainly need one.
Absolutely.
It's unleashing your inner power, your inner fire.
Like, I mean, you may be playing a great game, but you can take your game to like another
level and having the right coach will help you do that.
I mean, it's like, it's who you are beyond even what you're succeeding in.
Okay, so you're getting all the papers in.
So you're submitting the grants and you're getting them.
So what more can you do?
And I think faculty numbers need to pay attention to the desire for more.
It's like, if you're feeling like, I want more, I want more out of my career.
I want more out of my life.
I want more.
I think it's the call.
It's the cry of, hey, I need someone to help me figure out what this more is.
And to be honest, for many times, and I want to say this again, I think this really happens
a lot for women and people who are underrepresented.
There's a sense that, well, I'm going down the motions and I'm making it, but this is
not it.
It's not fulfilling me.
And I really think that if you are not fulfilled, then you've got to take the next step to get
to where you want to be, to really start to have the career that nourishes you, that fulfills
you and then helps you feel like, wow, this is absolutely what I came to do, who I came
to be.
Exactly.
This is such a great conversation.
I wanted to go on for it.
We do need to come to a close.
And I just want to add a few.
Well, actually, I want to ask you what closing thoughts do you have for us?
And to talk to my audience about, hey, if they want to coach you, how do they find you?
Oh, great.
I mean, I think you kind of, you've nailed what I wanted to say in closing, which is
the fact that it's your career should really provide you with fire and fuel and really
fulfill you rather than train you.
And I have seen a lot of people who have all the external signs of success, but their careers
drain in them.
They feel like something's missing.
They feel very unfulfilled.
And some of it is because of a lack of clarity on what they want or because a lack or a lack
of boundaries or there's just something that is missing, something that would really add
that sense of meaning to what they're doing.
And so I think that that is how coaching can be really remarkable and really help.
I think of coaching as a form of human intervention.
We prescribe medications all the time, right?
For different developments is another, it's another intervention.
It's like, you know, some people just need to be prescribed a coach to address the issues
of the challenges that they may have.
Or even if they're not having any challenges to bring out the best in them, to become the
best version of themselves, not just the best version to offer to your career, but the best
version you can offer to your family as well.
Because when you are successful in your career, when it is like providing you with energy
and helping you to be fulfilled, you are able to become a better spouse, a better mother
or a better husband because you are able to parent from a place of joy and fulfillment
rather than resentment and bitterness because your career is draining you and draining all
aspects of your personal life.
And so I really do think that coaching can make a tremendous difference.
It's made a difference in me going from being somebody who is fully clinical and really
trying going to work every day, not because the work I was doing wasn't important, but
because it just wasn't as meaningful to me in the same way.
And I wanted to have a bigger impact.
I wanted to, you know, make an impact on people who come from my community.
And so now I am walking that talk and I'm becoming the Martha that I was meant to be
in my work that I'm doing as a researcher.
So that's what I will end with.
And if somebody was wants to touch base with me, you can connect with me on LinkedIn.
That is the best place to send me a message.
I'm very active on LinkedIn every day.
It's my fun place to be.
It's a place where I release a lot of creativity.
So just send me a connection request, DM me.
I am available and I am here to support anybody.
Thank you so much, Dr. Kinney.
That's a great last word.
I feel like from what you were saying, a question popped in my mind and I feel like it would
be a service to our community to share that.
You know, people are like, well, coaching sounds great and everything, but how do I
pay for it?
It's expensive.
Right.
Can you speak to how people can make the investment?
What shifts need to happen and where do people go find the money?
Great questions.
There's different ways.
I think the very first place to start is your workplace.
And so many of us have CME funds or we have some kind of discretionary funds, which in
most departments, they will support you and you can use some of those funds to help for
a coach because your coach is going to help you with career development and professional
development.
So that's, I think, a great place to start as well.
And then the other place is, you know, it's not even a place, but it's a thought.
You know, you are investing in yourself.
You're investing in developing yourself.
I mean, don't we shouldn't take for granted when you see an incredible leader and you're
watching that person and you're thinking, oh gosh, they're so amazing.
They're a great mentor.
They're just killing it in all these different areas.
You will not believe the amount of investment that that person has put into developing themselves.
We people don't become like that overnight.
And so you also have to be willing to invest in yourself and some of that investment is
time, is money, is energy, you know, is other resources as well.
And so you have to be the person who is going to champion yourself by investing in yourself.
If you're asking your mentors to invest in you, you also have to be willing and invest
in yourself.
You develop yourself first because you know yourself better than anybody else and you
know who you want to become.
And so that is what I will say to that.
That is a great place to end.
I feel like Dr. Kenny, you took me to church.
And now I'm going to go sit and meditate on the word you gave me.
Well, it's a pleasure.
It was a pleasure speaking with you for sure.
Absolute pleasure to have you on the show.
Everyone you've heard Dr. Kenny, I mean, she's just shared a number of gems.
Somebody else needs to hear this podcast episode.
If you're listening to it and you're like, wow, this was good.
You know somebody else who needs to hear it.
I'm inviting you right now, send it to just one person, make a difference in the life
of another clinician who's working to make this transition to become a clinician scientist.
Dr. Kenny, thank you for coming on the show.
Thank you for having me.
All right, everybody.
We'll see you next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.
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