1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,280 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,140 Welcome to today's episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:04,140 --> 00:01:07,120 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it's such a pleasure to be here. 14 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,880 And I have to tell you that today I have a treat for you because I have an extra special 15 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:11,880 guest. 16 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,240 Her name is Sarah Dobson, and she is just a wonderful... 17 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:20,680 Actually, the word I had in mind was badass, but she's a wonderful person. 18 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:22,960 And she's just excellent in grant writing. 19 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,480 And actually, I could tell her story, but I think she tells it better. 20 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:27,960 So I'm just going to introduce her. 21 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:30,040 Sarah, welcome to the show. 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:31,440 Thank you so much for having me. 23 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,200 It's great to be here. 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:39,140 So Sarah, you are someone who's an expert in grant writing, yet you are not currently 25 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:40,840 in academic medicine. 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,300 And so I want you to just share with my audience your story. 27 00:01:43,300 --> 00:01:47,120 How do you get from where you started to where you are now? 28 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:51,200 Well, it's a long and winding path, first of all. 29 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,880 An important thing to know about me is that I am a law school dropout. 30 00:01:54,880 --> 00:02:03,960 So I did a liberal arts undergrad degree, and my plan at that time was to pursue medicine 31 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:05,720 and to head in that direction. 32 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,680 But during my undergrad, I realized, I don't know if that's the career for me. 33 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:16,280 And looking back, I think it had to do with feeling insecure that I didn't have all of 34 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:22,400 the answers, and I couldn't possibly if I even studied to become a clinician. 35 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:28,760 I don't know what that was about in my 19, 20-year-old brain, but I just felt a lot of 36 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:36,560 pressure to be an expert, and I just didn't feel confident or comfortable claiming that, 37 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:37,560 I think. 38 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,520 And so I was like, well, that's probably not the right path for me. 39 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:43,400 So what is an alternative? 40 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:50,400 What's going to allow me to do something interesting and exciting and play with big ideas? 41 00:02:50,400 --> 00:03:00,360 And so I chose law school mostly as, I think, a way to expand my options and get some professional 42 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,880 training that could then take me in a bunch of different directions. 43 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,440 And so I didn't have to figure it out right away. 44 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,560 So I was accepted to... 45 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,760 So the other thing to know about me is that I am based in Canada. 46 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:11,760 I'm Canadian. 47 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:17,720 And so all of this is happening in Canada, although I work primarily with US-based researchers. 48 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,240 That's a later part of the story. 49 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:25,840 So I was accepted to law school, and on the first day, I just had this gut feeling like 50 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,880 this is really not for me. 51 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:34,800 But I stuck it out for about 18 months, and I learned some very important lessons. 52 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:41,560 Number one about how to communicate with an audience and understanding the objective of 53 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:47,120 a piece of writing, which was a really crucial lesson that I still use every day in my career 54 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:48,640 now. 55 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:56,880 But the process of quitting law school taught me a lot about who I am as a person, and just 56 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,440 the growth that I had to go through to be able to make that decision was absolutely 57 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,760 life-changing and career-changing. 58 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,760 So that's a really important part of the story, even though it sounds like a deviation from 59 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:09,840 the path. 60 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,720 But what ended up happening after I quit law school is a friend of mine who was working 61 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:20,280 at a hospital in a pulmonary oncology clinic was like, we need somebody. 62 00:04:20,280 --> 00:04:25,160 Do you want to come in and interview for a job? 63 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:32,760 And so a little 22-year-old me went in for this job just as a clinic coordinator. 64 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:38,960 And I took the job and got introduced to the world of biomedical research, because this 65 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:45,000 pulmonary oncology clinic was doing a lot of research primarily on quality of life, 66 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,920 but they were also doing clinical trials and that sort of thing. 67 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,800 And this was my first real introduction to this universe. 68 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:58,120 And I was fascinated and got really, really interested in the work that they were doing 69 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,840 and really invested in the work they were doing. 70 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:06,280 And of course, in my actual role, I was meeting a lot of these patients and getting to know 71 00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:12,320 them, and of course, watching their decline, because this was a lung cancer clinic. 72 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:21,400 And so it was another really important growth point for me, I think, but also just like 73 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:22,400 it was just really moving. 74 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,160 It was just a really moving place to work. 75 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:34,640 And it was also the first time I was working with clinicians and clinician scientists. 76 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:41,800 And I just developed this, I think, this deep appreciation for the work that they do, primarily 77 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:51,040 because it was so clear to me that the questions they were asking were emerging from patterns 78 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:55,880 they were observing in their patients and just this desire to understand it, to help 79 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:56,880 even more. 80 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:02,760 And I just appreciated that so much about the people that I was working with. 81 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,880 And so that was a really foundational experience for me. 82 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:11,320 But what I realized in the couple of years that I was working my first real job was that 83 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,640 I wanted to enter that world myself. 84 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:25,160 And so I decided to pursue a graduate degree in population and public health research. 85 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:30,100 And so I stayed connected with the hospital and with the clinic and ended up doing my 86 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:35,360 research there, just understanding wait times. 87 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,880 And it was what I think I was most interested in and I didn't really realize at the time 88 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,680 was the more sort of qualitative aspect, like how does it really impact an individual to 89 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:49,840 have to wait for a diagnosis and a treatment plan. 90 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:53,680 But what I ended up doing was just trying to understand what are the different factors 91 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,960 that might impact the patient's wait time and whether those are really necessary or 92 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,280 not necessary. 93 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:04,800 And it was mostly just a way to stay connected to the people that I'd started working with 94 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,440 and the patients. 95 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:14,800 But it was fascinating to be in that environment for such a long period of time. 96 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:24,440 Halfway through my graduate degree, I ended up getting quite sick, and life-threateningly 97 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:25,440 sick. 98 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:31,840 So I had to put things on pause and that really I think also kind of changed the course of 99 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:32,840 where things were going. 100 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:39,200 I had fully intended to go on and do a PhD, but I just realized with what has happened, 101 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:45,280 I need to just wrap up my master's degree and then find something a little bit more 102 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,720 stable and figure out what next steps are. 103 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,160 And so I moved across the country. 104 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:59,520 I moved out here to Vancouver, British Columbia, and I ended up getting a job with a sort of 105 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:07,720 a startup research center out here that focused on medical education and so helping figure 106 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,920 out how we train the next generation of clinicians. 107 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:18,320 And so it was introduced to a whole different area of research and just different perspectives 108 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,280 on interdisciplinary research really. 109 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:27,360 But what I was doing in that context was more on the administrative side of things and on 110 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:28,680 the grantsmanship side of things. 111 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:34,160 And that's where what I do now really comes in is I started, people would just send me 112 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:39,240 their papers and their grants before they would be submitted to the different funding 113 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,440 agencies or the different peer review journals and say, hey, can you just take a look at 114 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:43,440 this? 115 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,120 And it wasn't technically, at least initially, part of my job description, but because I'd 116 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:56,040 grown up being a reader and a storyteller, I just kind of took that on as something I 117 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,600 really enjoyed doing and people seemed to get a lot of benefit out of it. 118 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,000 And more and more it became part of my role. 119 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:08,680 But to shorten this story, I just realized at a certain point that being on the staff 120 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:12,840 side at a university is not the best. 121 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:18,560 And so for me, I just decided that I was going to take what I considered then to be my one 122 00:09:18,560 --> 00:09:23,920 skill set, which was really academic editing, and kind of start a freelance career and just 123 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:28,300 go out on my own and see what I could do on my own and get away from all the bureaucracy 124 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:34,840 and all of the underestimation that was happening in the university setting. 125 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,320 And so that's what I did. 126 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:43,480 And over time, I started specializing and subspecializing in grant writing, and even 127 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:50,040 now more specifically in NIH grants, and more specifically than that in R01 or R series 128 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:51,040 grants. 129 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:52,040 Yeah. 130 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,040 So hopefully that wasn't too long winded an explanation. 131 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,960 It's a very long story. 132 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,280 It's an important story, actually. 133 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,240 So we've talked a few times and I've not heard the story this great extent of the story. 134 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,320 So I'm really glad you share it because I think I get three things from you sharing 135 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:09,320 that story. 136 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,680 Number one is that you are someone who has a clear sense of who you are. 137 00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:17,640 And even though it took you 18 months from the time you knew that you weren't supposed 138 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,600 to be in law school, you still got to a point where you made that decision. 139 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,080 And it was a hard decision because actually what would have been easier, so to speak, 140 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,960 is to keep going until the end, which is what most of us do. 141 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:30,880 And you made a change. 142 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:38,000 And then you took advantage of a situation in which you were growing as someone who was 143 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:43,880 really an expert in grant writing, and you just continued to hone in on your expertise 144 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,840 and you doubled down on it, which I think so many of us are trying to be generalists. 145 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,240 And it's like, can you find the thing that you're really good at and really make it amazing? 146 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,240 And that's what you've done. 147 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:58,360 And then the third thing I get out of that too is that at some point you recognize that 148 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,840 the value you were creating was greater than the value that was being reimbursed, if that's 149 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,360 the right way to say it. 150 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,640 And for that reason, you bet on yourself. 151 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,040 And you said, you know what, I'm really good at this. 152 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:10,040 I think it's high value. 153 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,040 I'm going to see how other people perceive that. 154 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,240 And it's been a bet that's paid off really big. 155 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:23,240 And wow, now you help so many physicians and so many scientists turn around grants. 156 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,400 And you can't even take as many people that are trying to come into your program. 157 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:35,480 So I just want to say kudos to you for making a path that's really now serving so many people. 158 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:41,440 And maybe you can just share with your audience, with my audience, what do you do as far as 159 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,480 like, how do you help people write grants or how do you help people support people's 160 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:46,480 grant writing? 161 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:47,480 Yeah. 162 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,120 So it happens. 163 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,220 So I have a business, of course, but the way that I think about it is that there are sort 164 00:11:53,220 --> 00:11:55,480 of two arms to the business. 165 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:03,280 One is more like a consulting agency where we work one-on-one with clients who are resubmitting 166 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,840 previously discussed R01. 167 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,680 So I know that sounds very specific, but we do that for a really important reason. 168 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:17,520 And that's because if we have an R01 that's been previously submitted and discussed, we 169 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:19,540 have some really important information. 170 00:12:19,540 --> 00:12:20,720 We have the summary statement. 171 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:26,960 So we have the critiques from reviewers around the scientific and technical merit of the 172 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,200 application. 173 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,760 And we also have some information about the grantsmanship. 174 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:39,280 But because the grant was discussed, we know that the critiques of the scientific merit 175 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:44,240 and the approach primarily are fairly easily addressable in the ways that a grant that 176 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,240 gets triaged probably aren't. 177 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:51,960 There's a lot more to do there on the approach side than there would be on the discussed 178 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:52,960 side. 179 00:12:52,960 --> 00:13:02,040 And so if we can help our PIs understand what it is that they really need to do on the grantsmanship 180 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:10,840 side and also they're already tackling what needs to be done scientifically, that is what 181 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,600 can help them get across the pay line. 182 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:15,480 And so that's what we're supporting to do. 183 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:20,720 And the reason that we've ended up in that place is just as you mentioned earlier, we 184 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,760 have so much demand for this service that we can't possibly help everyone. 185 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,360 And so we've had to be really selective about who we work with. 186 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:35,380 And so we're working with the PIs who are in the best position to get funded. 187 00:13:35,380 --> 00:13:40,960 And even there, it's still a pretty big hurdle to clear when pay lines are so low and the 188 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,440 success rate is so low. 189 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,320 So yeah, we're doing what we can on that side. 190 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:46,760 So that's the agency side. 191 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:53,120 And then on the other side, it's really like an online education company, a faculty development 192 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:54,320 company. 193 00:13:54,320 --> 00:14:00,920 And on that side of the business, what we do is support PIs to write grants through 194 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,960 a self-paced online course called the Grant Funding Formula. 195 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:11,880 And we have an R-series track for that course and also a Career Development Award track 196 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:12,880 for that course. 197 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,400 So it basically walks you through how to write one of these grants step by step, just to 198 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,640 understand what the process is like going through strategy and planning and actually 199 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,760 building out the argument that you're trying to make. 200 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,720 And then how do you get appropriate feedback that's going to be useful to you and what 201 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,060 you need to do to sort of fine tune the application. 202 00:14:29,060 --> 00:14:36,520 So we cover a lot in the self-paced course to help folks get these grants out the door 203 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:41,640 in a shape that is going to help the grant be as competitive as possible. 204 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:47,960 The other thing that we do on the education side of the business is we have a group program 205 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:56,560 for women faculty who are making that transition from their Career Development Award to our 206 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:02,240 level funding, primarily R01s, R35s, that sort of level. 207 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,680 And that is a really, I would say, a really delicate transition point. 208 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:13,160 There's a lot going on there that's about more than just learning how to write a different 209 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,080 type of grant, a much bigger, more all-encompassing type of grant. 210 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:27,120 There's a lot of identity stuff going on there and a lot that needs to be considered in terms 211 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,400 of setting yourself up for long-term success and not just looking at the short-term, you 212 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,600 know, how do I get this grant funded? 213 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:41,200 It's really about faculty development, career development, and making sure that you are 214 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,880 designing your career in a way that's going to be most fulfilling and meaningful to you 215 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,200 so that you stick with it. 216 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,200 Okay. 217 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,200 You've said a lot, Sarah. 218 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,160 You've told me about grant writing and then you talk about identity. 219 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:56,160 Okay. 220 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:57,600 Bring the two together for me. 221 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:58,600 Okay. 222 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,520 So there is a logic to all of this. 223 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:07,960 So I started out really just doing the grant reviews. 224 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:14,440 And what I noticed when I was working with PIs was a lot of, you know, I had a very detailed 225 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,280 process laid out so that I could do my job, right? 226 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,240 You know, I need to be able to get documents from the PIs so that I could do my review 227 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:27,240 and get them back in time so that it would be useful for them to make changes and get 228 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:28,500 the grant out the door. 229 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:30,080 And so this was all laid out in advance. 230 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,240 But what I found more often than not was PIs would come back and say, I wasn't able to 231 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,320 get that done in time and I'm not going to be able to get my documents to you. 232 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:43,200 But you know, I can't do my job if you can't get me your stuff. 233 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:52,400 And so what I realized was a lot of PIs really struggle with time management, I mean, which 234 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,940 I consider really self-management in a lot of ways. 235 00:16:55,940 --> 00:17:02,740 And I think, you know, if you're in the clinical world, in the academic world, you're almost 236 00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:05,200 inevitably an overachiever. 237 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:12,860 And by nature, you're just taking on a lot of projects because you can't be. 238 00:17:12,860 --> 00:17:16,240 People look to you and say, you know, this person can get a lot done. 239 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,980 So we're going to ask them to do even more. 240 00:17:18,980 --> 00:17:25,320 And if you're particularly early in your career, that is, I mean, it's flattering to be asked, 241 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:26,320 right? 242 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,080 And so you just take on more and more and more. 243 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:33,200 But that doesn't leave a lot of space for your own work. 244 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,720 But that work is the most important work that you can be doing. 245 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:43,200 And if you're not making space for it, and if you're not recognizing how important it 246 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:53,860 is to create space for the writing and the thinking and the preparation for the research 247 00:17:53,860 --> 00:17:58,720 you want to do and the impact that you want to make with your research, you're doing yourself 248 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,720 a disservice. 249 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:09,320 And so both the grant funding formula course and, in particular, the group program called 250 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:20,020 K to R Essentials, those were developed to support PIs in better preparing for grant 251 00:18:20,020 --> 00:18:26,800 writing in particular, but more broadly just in terms of how to think about how they spend 252 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,840 their time. 253 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:35,240 Because I think in the long run, that is one of the most important things you can do to 254 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:42,800 be successful and prolific as a researcher is to understand your own habits, understand 255 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:51,200 what your priorities are, understand what it really takes out of you to produce excellence. 256 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:56,940 And if you're just, again, looking at the short term and not being as intentional as 257 00:18:56,940 --> 00:19:03,960 you could be about all of that, it's going to be so much harder to produce a grant at 258 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,320 all, much less a competitive grant. 259 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,120 And you're going to burn yourself out in the process. 260 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:10,760 And that doesn't serve anybody. 261 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,200 Wow. 262 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:19,080 I feel like some of the, you know, as you're talking, I think what comes to mind is that 263 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,440 some of the things you're saying actually feel countercultural, right? 264 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,800 Because we're in a space where it's like, no, just get the grant out and then get the 265 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,480 next one out and then get the next one out. 266 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,080 But you don't advocate that. 267 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,440 You don't advocate just grant after grant after grant submission. 268 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,760 But there's pressure on faculty to get funded. 269 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,040 So how do you manage that? 270 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,760 How do you manage the pressure to get funded in producing high quality work that can be 271 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:44,240 funded? 272 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,000 Yeah. 273 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,340 So that is a great question. 274 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:52,180 And I think, so I'm coming at this as an outsider, right? 275 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:55,380 I don't experience that same pressure. 276 00:19:55,380 --> 00:20:00,800 And so to a certain extent, I don't relate to it. 277 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:08,240 But what I find so fascinating is that you and your institution want the same thing, 278 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,400 which is a funded application, right? 279 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:19,160 But what they are telling you to do is to just churn out application after application 280 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:22,760 with no regard to quality. 281 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,800 You know, I guess with the idea that eventually something is going to hit. 282 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,860 But that's not how I look at it at all. 283 00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:34,060 And that's the whole reason that my business exists, right? 284 00:20:34,060 --> 00:20:35,000 I don't buy into that. 285 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:42,420 I don't buy into the idea that the quality is consistent across all of these grants that 286 00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:45,900 you're churning out cycle after cycle or multiple grants in one cycle, right? 287 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:50,860 In my view, it's always, always quality over quantity. 288 00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:57,320 And the more time you can spend understanding what it is you want to do and how you want 289 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:06,380 to do it and learning how to communicate the value of your research, that is what's going 290 00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:07,400 to get you funded. 291 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,480 It has nothing to do with the number of grants you submit. 292 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,680 It has to do with the quality of the grants that you submit. 293 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,060 And yes, of course, there is some luck involved. 294 00:21:16,060 --> 00:21:21,720 And we are well aware of the systemic biases that exist within, I mean, I'm talking about 295 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,920 NIH specifically, but that's true of many, many funding agencies, right? 296 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:31,620 That but I do think that quality makes a difference. 297 00:21:31,620 --> 00:21:39,920 And what I mean by quality is that you are making it as clear and simple as possible 298 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,480 to your audience, to your reviewers, what it is that you are trying to accomplish and 299 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,960 why it matters. 300 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,840 And it's really hard to do that and to put yourself in somebody else's shoes, to put 301 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,800 yourself in your reviewer's shoes when you've got a million other things going on and you're 302 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,640 just trying to check those boxes. 303 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:06,180 You're not really giving yourself the space to think through your idea and to figure out 304 00:22:06,180 --> 00:22:10,360 how someone else might receive it for the very first time. 305 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:20,320 And so I understand that there is tremendous pressure on clinicians to submit these grants 306 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:25,760 and to generate grant funding. 307 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:36,360 But I don't think the answer is to fall prey to this false sense of urgency because I don't 308 00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:37,360 think it's serving you. 309 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:44,000 I think you're letting anxiety drive your decision making and that is not what is going 310 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,000 to get you funded. 311 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,400 Thank you for sharing that. 312 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:56,480 So what I'm hearing is really starting from a deep space of work that matters, work that 313 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:02,520 you find valuable and important and building from that rather than the sense of urgency 314 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,840 and anxiety of just get another grant out, just get another grant out, which could decrease 315 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:13,160 the quality of the work you do and also perhaps not even be satisfying because it may not 316 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,640 speak to kind of the greater good that you want to do through your science. 317 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:18,640 Exactly. 318 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,960 And I'll just add one more thing, which is that it's completely understandable that that 319 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,640 is the impulse that most researchers have because that's what they see happening around 320 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,140 them everywhere, right? 321 00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:33,480 That's just what everybody does. 322 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:40,240 You're just on this treadmill of submitting applications and rushing to resubmit the ones 323 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,600 that don't get funded and just continuing that cycle. 324 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:51,120 So it's completely understandable that that's how you think that you're supposed to do it, 325 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,200 but it does not have to be that way. 326 00:23:54,200 --> 00:24:04,880 And in fact, especially if you are just starting out in your career and you don't have the 327 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:12,880 body of work that your more senior colleagues have to draw upon to be able to write a grant 328 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,860 more quickly, you're going to think that you're doing it wrong. 329 00:24:16,860 --> 00:24:23,160 You're going to think that because it's taking you so long that you're doing something wrong. 330 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,160 But when you're in the beginning, there's so much learning that you're doing. 331 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:33,440 You're learning a new grant mechanism and all of the guidelines and hoops you have to 332 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,920 jump through administratively to get the grant out the door, right? 333 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,400 So that's one piece that you're learning. 334 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,560 You're also developing your program of research and trying to figure out what it is that you 335 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,800 want to do and how you want to get there. 336 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,880 And then you're also learning how to write this new type of application. 337 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,560 And so all of that is happening simultaneously. 338 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,000 And it's just a lot. 339 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,640 And I think people underestimate that full stop. 340 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:07,680 They just underestimate all of the different pieces that are involved in that early stage. 341 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:17,400 And I think they just underestimate how much time that actually takes to do well. 342 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:23,040 What I'm hearing you say is that it's like a plant, a seed that was planted. 343 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,840 And although you may not yet see the seed push through the surface, there's a lot going 344 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,240 on beneath the surface. 345 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,880 And it's helping people to recognize that even if they may not have pushed through yet, 346 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:40,360 there's a lot going on and to really show themselves compassion and not compare themselves 347 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:46,240 to perhaps those who are more senior and have passed that phase. 348 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,000 But that's all they may recognize as the norm for themselves right now. 349 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,720 But really to look and see how much has been accomplished and to really look on oneself 350 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:56,720 with compassion. 351 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,840 Well, yes, you said that far more eloquently than I did. 352 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:02,840 That's exactly it. 353 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:10,200 I would say compassion over anxiety, kind of driving the bus every single time. 354 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,240 So you've worked with a lot of faculty. 355 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,440 Who are those who succeed? 356 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,980 Well, good question. 357 00:26:17,980 --> 00:26:27,160 One of the things that we have observed is that the PIs who continue to advance their 358 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,320 research idea from the time they submit their initial application to the time they get their 359 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:39,560 peer review critique back, those are the ones who are most successful because they're not 360 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,840 just submitting a grant and kind of moving on to the next thing. 361 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:51,760 They're always thinking about what needs to be done to move this project forward. 362 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,220 And so by the time they get their summary statement, their peer review critique back, 363 00:26:57,220 --> 00:27:02,880 they've already very likely addressed some of the critiques that are in the summary statement, 364 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:10,520 but they're also much more nimble and prepared to answer any critiques that they had not 365 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,720 anticipated. 366 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,720 So that would be one thing. 367 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:20,480 I would say the ones who are organized and prepared. 368 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:26,040 And sometimes that means, you know, if we're talking about resubmissions, that means people 369 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:34,480 who are willing to skip a grant cycle to be able to do the job that needs to be done to 370 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,320 get the grant into competitive shape. 371 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:42,600 So if the critiques are telling you that you need more preliminary data, for example, and 372 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:49,040 there's just realistically not enough time to get that all done and to rewrite the grant 373 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:55,360 for the upcoming grant cycle, they are willing to play the long game and understand that 374 00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:05,400 it's worthwhile to wait three months to be able to do a better job on the resubmission. 375 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:14,600 And I would say more broadly, when I think about the PIs who've been successful in that 376 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:21,760 K to R transition, it's the ones who understand where it is that they're headed. 377 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,520 They understand what their vision is. 378 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,600 They understand where they want to go and where they want to make their impact. 379 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,700 And they just focus all of their energy on that. 380 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:33,320 And they just don't worry about the other stuff. 381 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:39,920 Because again, you're going to get so many requests for your time and your participation 382 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,740 and your expertise. 383 00:28:42,740 --> 00:28:48,280 But if it doesn't align with where you want to go and the impact that you want to make, 384 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,640 it's not worth your time. 385 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,560 Or I guess it's up to you to decide whether it's worth your time. 386 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:58,800 But that's a really important consideration to just think about, why am I here? 387 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,080 What am I here to do? 388 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:11,340 And how can I point all of the work that I'm doing towards that and just gracefully let 389 00:29:11,340 --> 00:29:14,840 go of everything else that comes my way? 390 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:23,560 But what that requires is a deep sense of self-trust and self-compassion and a willingness 391 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,680 to be uncomfortable, quite honestly. 392 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,000 Wow, this is powerful stuff. 393 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,520 So we're talking about grant writing, but we're not talking about grant writing. 394 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,240 We're not talking about grant writing. 395 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:41,860 And this is what I mean when I say, laying that foundation for long-term success, right? 396 00:29:41,860 --> 00:29:45,720 Because it's not just about one grant application. 397 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,720 It's about how you set up your career. 398 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:57,420 And for clinicians, that can get really complicated because there are just so many different demands 399 00:29:57,420 --> 00:29:58,420 on your time. 400 00:29:58,420 --> 00:30:05,640 And so in my view, that makes it extra important to clarify what matters to you and where you 401 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:11,960 want your impact to be, and more specifically, what you want your research impact to be so 402 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:18,760 that you're not spreading yourself too thin and you're able to really devote your time 403 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:25,280 and your energy and your focus to what is most meaningful and fulfilling to you. 404 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,280 Yeah, it's really important. 405 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,280 It's really deep and powerful. 406 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,440 I mean, the whole time you were speaking, I think the thought that came to my mind is 407 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,160 just the sense of depth, right? 408 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,720 This is not just a surface level, produce the next thing. 409 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,280 It's like, where are you going? 410 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:42,640 What are you creating? 411 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,920 What's the impact you envision for your research? 412 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,740 And start from that space. 413 00:30:47,740 --> 00:30:55,200 And because you start from that space, you're not anxious trying to just do the next thing 414 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,800 and the next thing because it's really, you recognize, you said you're playing the long 415 00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:59,800 game. 416 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,600 If you're going to play the long game, you got to work at it. 417 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,160 And whether or not people support you, you've got to move things forward. 418 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,840 So it's, yeah, it makes it all comes back full circle to what you talked about identity. 419 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,360 It's like, who are you? 420 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,240 Start from that space rather than what do you need to do? 421 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:19,240 That's exactly it. 422 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:31,200 And I think playing the long game allows you to put those disappointments in context, right? 423 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:38,920 It's, graduate writing is really challenging and the funding landscape is very competitive. 424 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,240 And so you're not going to get every grant that you submit it. 425 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:46,160 In fact, you're probably, I mean, if we're talking about NIH, you're probably going to 426 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:53,680 get 20% or less of the grants that you submit funded unless and until you really develop 427 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:58,960 that grandmanship skill set and get really solid in terms of your program of research, 428 00:31:58,960 --> 00:31:59,960 right? 429 00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:01,640 That's the beginning. 430 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:03,240 Set the bar low. 431 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:11,760 And so if you're thinking about it in terms of the long game, you're not as worried about 432 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:17,880 this one didn't get funded this time, but I know where this is going and I know that 433 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:25,520 the feedback that I'm getting can improve this for the next time. 434 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:32,040 It's easier to not take it as personally, I think, if you're focused on where you're 435 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,040 headed. 436 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:39,400 Any one of those losses is not going to matter as much because you understand what your mission 437 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,400 is. 438 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:48,080 Yeah, you know, one of the things you talked about earlier is about the need to be uncomfortable. 439 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,800 And I think to some extent, there is a feeling that there's not as much institutional support 440 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,720 for these kinds of endeavors really. 441 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,560 And I think that's some of the pressure people feel is where it feels as if, well, if you 442 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,600 don't get funded, there you go. 443 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,040 We're going to give you a lot more other work to do and now you really won't be able to 444 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,000 move your work forward. 445 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:12,680 So I think there's this sense of, well, if I don't get the support I need, maybe I can't 446 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:13,960 move forward. 447 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:20,080 Could you speak to how do you move forward even if you're betting on yourself and you're 448 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,640 not necessarily receiving the kind of support you need, but you recognize that your work 449 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,880 is important and you want to move it forward? 450 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,000 Another excellent question. 451 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:40,200 So the first thing that wants to come out is do not wait for your institution to support 452 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,280 you. 453 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:47,840 And I say that as someone who believes very, very strongly that your institution ought 454 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:54,040 to support you financially to succeed, right? 455 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:55,920 Because they're reaping the benefits of it. 456 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:59,480 I mean, again, when we're talking about NIH grants, which is what I specialize in, they 457 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:05,520 are getting massive benefit through indirect funds from that. 458 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:12,840 And so for them to just say, good luck to you, figure it out is abhorrent to me. 459 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:18,360 And yet that's what a lot of faculty experience is like, how hard can it be? 460 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,560 Just figure it out. 461 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,240 You got to do this. 462 00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:26,600 And if you can't figure it out, you're just going to be spending more of your time doing 463 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,200 clinical work and less of your time doing research. 464 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,480 And there's just nothing we can do about that. 465 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,520 So again, I recognize that pressure. 466 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:48,480 But what I would say is that if you're letting your anxiety about that dictate how you move 467 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:55,480 forward, that is just a recipe for burnout, for unfulfillment, for unhappiness in your 468 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:56,480 career. 469 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:05,600 And so if you can focus on what matters the most to you and find ways to make it work 470 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:12,100 without the success of your institution, they can't say anything to you at that point, right? 471 00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:17,720 Because you're going to be successful in spite of that. 472 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:23,800 And also, that is really useful information for you to have about your institution, right? 473 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:31,400 If they are not willing to support you to get grant funding or whatever other sort of 474 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,080 professional development you might need to succeed in your career, that's just really 475 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:46,400 good to know because that allows you to decide whether this is the right home for you. 476 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:54,920 And I mean, none of this is easy and a lot of it is really uncomfortable. 477 00:35:54,920 --> 00:36:08,200 But I think the wider your eyes are open to how institutions get away with bad behavior 478 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:18,000 and the amount of pressure that's unnecessarily on clinical faculty and research faculty, 479 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:27,120 yeah, I mean, again, I'm an outsider to this and I just find the whole thing to be baffling 480 00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,960 the way that most faculty are treated. 481 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:36,760 And so anywhere you can push back and disrupt and fight that by just saying, like, I'm just 482 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,480 going to do it my way and we'll just see how it turns out. 483 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:48,040 Yeah, that would be my approach. 484 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,920 The whole time you're talking, I'm smiling inside because I'm like, this is why I love 485 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,920 Sarah. 486 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:57,920 And it's the journey. 487 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,120 And when you shared your story initially, it's like, this is your story, the story of 488 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:09,400 not accepting the mold, not just cutting off your arms and fitting in the mold. 489 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,240 It's the story of saying, no, I don't feel like a fit. 490 00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:16,040 How do I make this work for me? 491 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:22,320 And what resonates with me and what you're saying is that the institution is here for 492 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:23,320 us. 493 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,520 We are not here as faculty for the institution. 494 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:31,200 The institution is a platform to build our careers. 495 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,480 And the institution is the institution because of faculty who have thriving careers. 496 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,800 And so even when we're feeling pressure, it's up to us. 497 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,920 In a sense, it's like a kid who just only wants to eat candy. 498 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,280 It's like, well, candy is not good for you. 499 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,080 So we're not going to let you eat it all the time. 500 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,920 In a sense, it's you standing up and saying, I know you're saying this is the path you 501 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,120 want me to take, but this is not the path you want for me. 502 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,760 You want me to be successful. 503 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,960 And therefore, I push back against this because when I'm successful and I will be, you're 504 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,440 going to benefit from it. 505 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,120 And therefore, you can support me. 506 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,120 And that's hard. 507 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,640 No, of course it is. 508 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:17,780 But institutions make you feel like you are lucky to be there and you are easily replaceable. 509 00:38:17,780 --> 00:38:20,320 And it's just not true. 510 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,920 And you have a lot more control than you think you do. 511 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:36,600 And I think the more that you can recognize that and use that, the better off everyone 512 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:37,880 will be ultimately. 513 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:46,000 I think hopefully institutions are starting to realize that the systems that they've built 514 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,760 are just not working anymore. 515 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:51,480 And we need a new way of doing this. 516 00:38:51,480 --> 00:39:02,120 We need a new way of moving through academia in a way that is more sustainable for faculty. 517 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:07,560 And that, I think, unfortunately starts with the faculty because the institutions aren't 518 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,800 going to do it. 519 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:17,480 So pushing back and saying, I'm going to do it my way, that's how it starts. 520 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,040 Yeah. 521 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,040 It's really beautiful. 522 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,040 It's powerful. 523 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,040 And it's important. 524 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,040 And it's hard. 525 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:30,080 And that's why being part of communities that support you to do that is critical. 526 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,720 It's hard to do this work by yourself. 527 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:33,720 Absolutely. 528 00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:35,320 Absolutely. 529 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,400 So what does my audience need to know about your community? 530 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,680 They're like, oh my gosh, this Sarah is amazing. 531 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,400 I want her to help me with my grant. 532 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,440 How do they connect with you? 533 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,560 Well, they can head to my website, which is sarahdobson.co. 534 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,640 So S-A-R-I-H-D-O-B-S-O-N dot C-O. 535 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,640 And they can sign up for my newsletter there. 536 00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:01,560 So once a week, I send out an email that speaks to a lot of what we've been talking about 537 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,880 on the show today. 538 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:10,800 And of course, earlier I mentioned the different ways that I serve PIs and my team and I serve 539 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:11,800 PIs. 540 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,400 And so you can find more information about that on the website as well. 541 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,400 And of course, if you have any questions, you can just reply to any one of those newsletter 542 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:25,560 emails and we're happy to answer any of those questions. 543 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:26,560 So awesome. 544 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,680 I'm putting in a plug for your newsletter because it's so powerful. 545 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,240 I love reading your newsletters. 546 00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:32,720 They're so awesome. 547 00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:38,200 You sent me so many lovely notes after your newsletters. 548 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:39,680 I really appreciate it. 549 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,840 You need to do a master class for how to write a newsletter. 550 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:43,840 You're so good. 551 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:50,080 Okay, so we're at the end of the podcast and we've said a lot, we've shared a lot, we've 552 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:51,080 discussed a lot. 553 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:52,080 Thank you. 554 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,200 What is left on set? 555 00:40:53,200 --> 00:41:00,040 What is the final parting comment that you want to share as we end the show? 556 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:09,680 I mean, I think it's just coming back to what I started with, which is I started my career 557 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:23,040 working with clinician scientists and just really deeply appreciate the inspiration that 558 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,840 clinician scientists have for the research that they're doing, which is it's just motivated 559 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,760 by a desire to better understand and better serve their patients. 560 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:39,080 And so what I want to remind your audience of is don't lose sight of that. 561 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,800 That is the most important thing that you need to hold onto in all of this with all 562 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:53,320 of the different demands coming at you and the busyness of your professional life. 563 00:41:53,320 --> 00:42:00,720 Just always try to hold on to that and why you're in this career in the first place, 564 00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:09,320 because that is what is going to help you develop those cutting edge research ideas 565 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:17,140 and it's what is going to bring enthusiasm and curiosity and passion to your grants and 566 00:42:17,140 --> 00:42:18,140 your papers. 567 00:42:18,140 --> 00:42:21,000 And that is what it's all about. 568 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,480 That's so beautiful. 569 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,480 What a way to end. 570 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,560 Thank you so much, Sarah. 571 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,680 My absolute pleasure. 572 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,200 Thank you so much for having me. 573 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:32,200 All right, everyone. 574 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,000 I don't even know what to say to add to that. 575 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,760 It's been a really amazing and powerful conversation. 576 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,120 Somebody else needs to hear this. 577 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,800 And so please don't listen and then just put your phone away. 578 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,240 Please share this with someone else, especially people you know and you know who they are 579 00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:52,880 who are struggling with the whole grant writing cycle and Sarah's team can certainly help. 580 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:53,880 All right. 581 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,800 Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you with you all today, Sarah. 582 00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,320 Thank you again for being on the show. 583 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,320 My pleasure. 584 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,320 All right. 585 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:08,400 Bye, everyone. 586 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:13,760 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic 587 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:19,520 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 588 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:20,520 have a mentor. 589 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:26,640 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 590 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,360 Someone else needs to hear it. 591 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:32,440 So take a minute right now and share it. 592 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:37,880 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 593 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:43,560 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health 594 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:44,560 care. 595 00:43:44,560 --> 00:44:00,600 Thanks, Sarah.