1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,400 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,400 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:07,840 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a privilege to be here. 14 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,880 It's such a pleasure because I have the amazing Dr. Betty Pace. 15 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,240 Betty, welcome to the show. 16 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,440 Thank you, and thank you so much for having me. 17 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:23,840 I don't know if I've ever told you, Betty, but you transformed my life because you were 18 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,200 director of the Pride program. 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:31,840 You are the director of the Pride program at FT in Augusta, and that was the first time 20 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,120 I ever really had anybody tell me about what it meant to succeed in academic medicine. 21 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,520 So I want to say thank you for that, and I want to thank you on behalf of all of us who've 22 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,560 come through Pride and been touched by you. 23 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:44,940 Thank you. 24 00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:49,340 So if you would please introduce yourself to the audience, how did you come upon this 25 00:01:49,340 --> 00:01:56,920 journey of being a clinician turned researcher and a badass one at that? 26 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:03,800 Well thank you so much for kind introduction and the vote of confidence for what I do. 27 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:10,240 But my journey started a long time ago as a teenager when I came into contact with someone 28 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:15,560 with sickle cell disease and that impacted me so much that I wanted to do research in 29 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,040 sickle cell disease and take care of individuals with the disease. 30 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,080 So from that point on I worked very hard in high school, college. 31 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:30,440 That goal in mind is to go to medical school and take care of patients with sickle cell 32 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:31,840 disease and do research. 33 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:38,960 It's a long road, a long road, medical school and residency and then pediatric hematologist. 34 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,400 I'm a hematologist, so another year, three years in that. 35 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:50,880 And then I did a post-doctoral for four years because in order to be competitive at research, 36 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,440 bench research, I felt I needed more training. 37 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:58,000 Even though I trained as a medical doctor, I didn't have the bench research training. 38 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:08,680 So after the four-year post-doc, I then said I'm ready and I started my lab, seeing patients, 39 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,600 I wanted to have a teaching lab. 40 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,440 So I think that's kind of where the teaching, mentoring part of it came along. 41 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:22,520 I made it so I was doing the research I wanted to do, but then I also wanted to develop my 42 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,240 other talent, which would be for teaching and mentoring. 43 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:31,640 So I started off with dress-styled students in my lab who rotate through the lab, medical 44 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:32,640 students. 45 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:33,640 You know, we always had a lot of people once. 46 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:36,000 It's been a summer in the lab. 47 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,880 And then in 2006, said, okay, let's start a formal training. 48 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,000 And I applied to the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute. 49 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,600 And we were funded to start the PRIDE program. 50 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,080 I have to say what it means. 51 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:58,440 Program to increase diversity in the health related research. 52 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,880 And we have been going ever since. 53 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,880 We're in our 15th year. 54 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:10,080 We focus on mentoring and training young people like yourself, underrepresented junior faculty, 55 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:19,440 teaching you how to develop a career plan, research, balance between your clinical and 56 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:24,800 research, and apply for grants so you can become independent investigators. 57 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,200 So after 15 years, we've been very successful. 58 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:37,880 We've trained 114 mentees, and they're all, the majority, doing very well with grant funding, 59 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,000 K awards, R01, they're all amos. 60 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,520 Very, very impressive. 61 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:45,520 But I wouldn't change anything. 62 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,680 It's a lot of work, but I love doing it. 63 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,720 And seeing young people flourish, they give me such a great pleasure. 64 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:02,280 So today, coming back and talking with you and your success, I do remember our conversations 65 00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:04,640 about what you should do. 66 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:10,200 I think it's about the mentoring and instilling the confidence that you can do this. 67 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:15,480 And we don't have that as underrepresented, especially underrepresented. 68 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:21,600 So I think that that is what drives me to do this, and I'll keep doing it. 69 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,360 Well, thank you for your work. 70 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,760 And one thing that you said, you've been very successful. 71 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,880 I love the way you own it. 72 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,480 And you have been very successful. 73 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:36,320 This is nationally known that among programs throughout the country that are focused on 74 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,640 increasing representation in research, you have been one of the most, if not the most, 75 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,320 successful program. 76 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,160 What is your secret sauce? 77 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:54,280 I think it comes from within, and your dedication and genuine, my genuine desire to see young 78 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:58,120 investigators be successful. 79 00:05:58,120 --> 00:05:59,640 And that makes me happy. 80 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,160 So I work really hard. 81 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:08,440 And when that happens, and that gives me the fuel to keep going and do it again. 82 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:13,000 Sometimes some of the young people say I was a taskmaster. 83 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,760 I worked them a little too hard. 84 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:20,760 But sort of like your children, it's hurting me more than it hurts you kind of thing. 85 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:27,120 But I think it is really the caring, I try to communicate to the trainees that I really 86 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,160 care about you and your success. 87 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,920 And when you're successful, I'm successful. 88 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:35,800 That's the way I view it. 89 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,960 And so I think people really can pick up on that. 90 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:44,720 And the long-term relationships, I still communicate with people who first turned in the first year 91 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:45,720 in 2007. 92 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,680 We're like a family, a network. 93 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:52,360 And so I think you get a lot out of it. 94 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,320 They saw the value. 95 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,280 And it's interesting you should ask about that. 96 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:59,840 I just saw an article yesterday that was published from NCI. 97 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:08,520 It's still talking about how underrepresented faculty, they do not have mentoring opportunities. 98 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:09,520 Same story. 99 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:10,600 Same story. 100 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:16,400 So NHLBI had a lot of insight when they started the PIAD program. 101 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,720 It is very successful, not just my program, but all the other programs that are funded 102 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:21,720 too. 103 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,120 There's eight other programs. 104 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:28,160 And I think NHLBI is in it for the long haul and really want to increase diversity. 105 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:33,440 So secret sauce is love, I guess. 106 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:34,440 I love it. 107 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:39,640 You know, I was going to ask you next, what is the biggest challenge that you see for 108 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:45,480 increasing representation in science? 109 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,040 It is hard work. 110 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:54,920 You have to, when the young people come into my program, I think it's the lack of confidence 111 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,360 that they can do it. 112 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:02,320 And so if you don't have someone encouraging you and teaching you at the same time and 113 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:08,480 mentoring on how you can be successful, then you just, you know, stop out and say, I can't 114 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:09,480 do this. 115 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:14,960 And, you know, I'm not saying that just going and taking care of patients is less important, 116 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,320 you say, I'm going to do what I can do best. 117 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,720 I'm going to go see patients and become a clinician. 118 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:26,360 But for the research part of it, you have to steal the confidence that they can do it. 119 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:27,800 And I think that's really important. 120 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,400 And if you don't get mentoring, where is it going to come from? 121 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,200 You know, most people in your family don't know anything about research. 122 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,680 And you can't talk to family members, you know. 123 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:43,600 I try to describe my research and be like, what's this? 124 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:53,120 So I think the early on mentoring, even high school undergraduate and instilling in underrepresented 125 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,680 students and STEM students that they can do it as well. 126 00:08:56,680 --> 00:09:01,760 And keeping that confidence going, even through junior faculty, because you still need the 127 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,320 support for sure. 128 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,440 But I think that is a key problem. 129 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,640 The resources and mentoring is just not there. 130 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,240 It isn't. 131 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:20,480 One thing that I see that's unique about your program is that you take on faculty who have 132 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,160 already started, have maybe even been on faculty for a few years. 133 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:28,280 And many times I hear the sentiment that, well, if you finished your fellowship and 134 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,800 you didn't get the research training, it's too late for you. 135 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,840 Can you speak to that? 136 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:39,040 That's a very good question and probably sort of lose what I was saying previously. 137 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:44,760 When I finished my fellowship, I myself felt I was not ready to compete as a faculty member. 138 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,560 So that's why I was fortunate enough to get Harold Ames funding and to do a postdoctoral 139 00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:53,120 fellowship and get more training. 140 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:58,880 So if you want to do be a physician scientist and have like a research lab, independent 141 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:03,920 lab and CLC patient, you really do need more training. 142 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:10,040 And I recommend that for people who really want to dedicate their career to be a research 143 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:11,040 scientist. 144 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:16,600 However, there are other areas that you can go into and be very successful doing clinical 145 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,880 research, which you probably don't need more postdoc. 146 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,680 You can get a master's and enhance your ability there. 147 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:29,080 So there's many ways for MD by training to expand their capability to do research. 148 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,280 It doesn't have to all be bench research. 149 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,880 Now the implementation research, all these types of research are very valuable. 150 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,320 So you can become a more general clinician scientist. 151 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:47,120 You know, physician scientist traditionally refers to people who want to do the bench 152 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,080 research, but there are many tracks that you can go on. 153 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:57,280 But the key is when you get your first faculty position is negotiating to have the time to 154 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,160 continue to develop. 155 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:05,440 And that's the one thing that I think is a weakness of the program is that NHLBI does 156 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,080 not allow us to recruit fellows. 157 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:15,680 If we can get a third year fellow, help them negotiate the package, find their faculty 158 00:11:15,680 --> 00:11:21,080 position, I think we have a jumpstart in the process. 159 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,640 But you know, when you all came to us, you've already got your faculty position. 160 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,160 Look, you're already stuck with a bad package. 161 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,840 So what can we do? 162 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:35,320 You know, 90% club going, 10% research time, oh, yay. 163 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,180 But you know, we still try to work with other people like that in the prior program. 164 00:11:39,180 --> 00:11:45,640 They were not as successful, but I think it will still be valid to get that experience, 165 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,800 to feel like they're a part of a network. 166 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,560 So there's more that comes out of the prior programs and, you know, always getting a grant. 167 00:11:53,560 --> 00:11:57,720 But both people, even when they didn't get grant, they learned better, they learned how 168 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:04,200 to operate better, and they got the promotions, you know, so they were better positions and 169 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:05,520 able to compete better. 170 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:10,080 So there are a lot of different things that can come out of the program. 171 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:11,920 Now let me ask you this. 172 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,560 For, and you mentioned something about kind of the, you already have the faculty position, 173 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:19,120 you're stuck with a position that doesn't support research. 174 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:25,360 Who are the people who succeed versus those who struggle in the pride program? 175 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:33,040 The most successful mentees are those who have protected time. 176 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:39,920 When they come to the pride program, then they have the time to really spend in pride 177 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:44,880 learning what they need to learn, doing the grant writing, publications. 178 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,400 We have some extra training opportunities we have now for pride, taking advantage of 179 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,280 their pride mentor, there's extra expertise. 180 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,120 So they have the time to make it happen. 181 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:03,480 So the most ideal training would be an MD who has a 70-30, 70% protected time. 182 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,800 And we have MDs like that. 183 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:06,800 I'm very impressed. 184 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:13,060 They negotiate nice packages and have 70% protected time for three to five years. 185 00:13:13,060 --> 00:13:17,760 So if they can build, get that K award, get the research going, et cetera. 186 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:22,480 And some are doing bench research and some are doing clinical research. 187 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:30,200 The most challenging is the basic scientists who's at the teaching faculty, teaching institution, 188 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:31,200 I should say. 189 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:32,400 And they do a lot of teaching. 190 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:38,600 So their duties are look at doing all kinds of coursework, different courses, three or 191 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,240 four courses a semester, and then you can't do anything. 192 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,800 You're always teaching and grading to us and taking care of the students. 193 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,440 So those trainees tend to have more challenge. 194 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:55,440 But I would say whether you're doing bench, clinical, it's having protected time. 195 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,360 And number two, some financial support. 196 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,000 A startup package to help you get your program going. 197 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:10,320 We hire some people to help you as hard as a startup program and you're the only person 198 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,920 underneath the research assistant associate something to help you no matter what your 199 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:15,920 focus is. 200 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,160 So having protected time, funding. 201 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:25,440 And then key is that you're in a department where your leadership, whether it's your division 202 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:32,760 chief or chair of PEEDS or medicine, they really want to see you succeed and you're 203 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:33,760 in a good environment. 204 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,680 You can come to all the private programs in the world, but if you go back home and no 205 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:44,440 one's supporting you, we just put you right back into the same environment. 206 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:49,320 And unfortunately, that happened with several of our private mentees as well. 207 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:53,080 So it's complicated. 208 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,080 It is. 209 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:55,080 It is. 210 00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:00,520 I will tell you that I was one of your mentees who joined at 80% clinical time with 20% protected 211 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,760 time. 212 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,720 And it's definitely been a journey. 213 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:06,720 And I would say that- 214 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:07,840 Well, remind me what year did you- 215 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,800 I was in 2015, the year my life changed forever. 216 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,960 It doesn't seem like it's been eight years. 217 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:15,960 Wow. 218 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:21,600 So talk a little bit about what your success has been too and what you got out of the pride. 219 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:22,600 Absolutely. 220 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,600 So I think the biggest thing I got out of the pride program was just awareness. 221 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,120 I think nobody tells you what you're supposed to do as a faculty member. 222 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:32,880 I didn't even really realize I wasn't ready. 223 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:33,880 I was a clinician. 224 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:38,320 I figured being a clinical person and doing research, it was going to be okay. 225 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:46,120 And I came to my faculty position and I wasn't felt to be qualified to get a research supported 226 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:47,120 position. 227 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,400 And so I got the 20% protected time and I thought, well, okay, I can make this work. 228 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,120 And what I didn't realize was it was not a setup for success. 229 00:15:55,120 --> 00:16:00,440 And so I was doing these projects and really running with them, trying to move them forward. 230 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:06,300 And when I came to the pride program, I remember you just laid out for us what we should be 231 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:09,440 pursuing as a faculty member. 232 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,400 And I remember that whole week, it was probably two and a half weeks, I feel like. 233 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,800 And I was like, oh my gosh, it was like you blew my mind. 234 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,240 I was like, nobody told me. 235 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,960 How is it that nobody told me that this is what I'm supposed to be doing? 236 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,560 And I remember asking you, you may not remember, you've had so many of us, but I was like, 237 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,640 why is nobody telling me that this is what I'm supposed to do? 238 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,840 And I said, but what if we're not supported to do that? 239 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,240 And you said, you're going to have to start to have those conversations. 240 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,520 And so I went back to my institution and I said, hey, this is what I'm supposed to be 241 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:39,520 doing. 242 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,360 I was supposed to be submitting a K. And I think people were like, you're not ready. 243 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,920 I'm like, no, I need to submit it now. 244 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:45,920 Yes. 245 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,680 They were the worst case ever, but they got me started. 246 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:51,680 Yes. 247 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:52,680 Yes. 248 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,080 And it gets you on the right track. 249 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,480 And you're fortunate you had people who supported you. 250 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,120 Now that doesn't excuse the fact that they were not mentoring you. 251 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,000 You know, it is what it is. 252 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,900 One of the things that you mentioned earlier is caring, right? 253 00:17:07,900 --> 00:17:14,400 And I think what I've run into in my experience, and I'm glad to be where I am, is that if 254 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,720 people don't believe you can, then there's no energy to help you. 255 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,240 They say, well, you just can't do it too bad. 256 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,260 But there's something else, you know, and then they send you off to do the work you 257 00:17:24,260 --> 00:17:25,260 can do. 258 00:17:25,260 --> 00:17:30,560 And that's where I found myself, where I felt like I didn't have people who believed I could. 259 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:36,480 And you were the first person who believed I could and gave me the tools I needed to 260 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:37,980 move forward. 261 00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:39,440 And so it took me a long time. 262 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,280 I was doing heart transplant research when I met you. 263 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:43,280 I'm a hematologist. 264 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,360 I was doing heart transplant research. 265 00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:47,920 And it was a few grants. 266 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,360 Actually, I probably put in the AMOS maybe three or four times. 267 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:56,720 And it was one, some of the feedback I finally got where it was like, but what is a hematologist 268 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:57,720 doing? 269 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:58,720 I know. 270 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,760 Heart transplant research. 271 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,720 And it was, you know, I was doing other research on the side. 272 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,200 And then it was the first time I said, well, let me just bring the stuff I've been doing 273 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,120 that I care about and make it into a project. 274 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,480 And that was what got me the AMOS. 275 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:15,520 And along the way, I had started getting support. 276 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:17,360 So I started on a K-12. 277 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:18,560 I got the AMOS. 278 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,400 And since then, I've gotten some other foundation awards. 279 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,040 But it's really been a journey. 280 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:25,040 It's been a journey. 281 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,040 And many doors were closed because I was the phenotype of people who don't succeed. 282 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:30,040 Right. 283 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,240 But it really did take you jumpstarting me. 284 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:33,600 And that really made a difference for me. 285 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,200 But that's interesting because I think in your case, I always viewed it as you would 286 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:43,520 do your hematologist doing cardiac, you know, transplant research. 287 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,160 But it was what was available to you. 288 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,760 It was what you could actually move into. 289 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:50,920 No one else was competing. 290 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:52,040 No one else wanted it. 291 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,920 So you took it and made it into something. 292 00:18:54,920 --> 00:19:01,680 And you're still doing hematology type of research, but it was with cardiology patients. 293 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:07,920 But I think that so often as young faculty, no one's basically sitting down and say, okay, 294 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,080 what do you really, what do you want to do? 295 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:13,080 What type of research? 296 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,880 What kind of career path development you want to have? 297 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,320 And then developing and supporting what's in your heart. 298 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,480 And most people don't get that. 299 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,480 Well, you know, you've been successful. 300 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:26,960 You've been able to take that. 301 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,280 And I thought very interesting research. 302 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:30,280 I think it's kind of cool. 303 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,200 You're a hematologist doing this kind of research. 304 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,880 And you've been successful in the field and leading in the field. 305 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:44,720 So often young people basically end up doing what samples are available that they can analyze 306 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,000 or what can get them started. 307 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,160 And I think doing that is better than just sitting and not doing anything. 308 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,880 And you know they'll love you to go to clinic and see patients. 309 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,520 There's never a shortage of patients in clinic. 310 00:19:58,520 --> 00:19:59,520 Never. 311 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,440 So you really have to be determined. 312 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:07,760 If you don't get the protected time in the first five years of your career, you have 313 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:13,360 to try to steal time from different places and be successful because after you've gone 314 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:16,760 five years, it's so hard to get started that late. 315 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:23,920 You know, it's already too late as far as I'm trying to become competitive on a national 316 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,000 basis if you sit and see patients for five years. 317 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,960 So you got to hit the ground running. 318 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:30,960 Yeah. 319 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:31,960 Yeah. 320 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:32,960 Wow. 321 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:33,960 I want to. 322 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:34,960 Oh, yes. 323 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,800 I want to talk about the pride program. 324 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:38,800 How do people apply? 325 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,040 How do they hear about it? 326 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,200 How do they get in on it? 327 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,040 So we're currently in between funding cycle. 328 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,880 Usually the program is funded for now five years. 329 00:20:51,880 --> 00:21:01,600 So starting in 2024, once we receive our notice of award, which I'm confident we will receive, 330 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,360 then we'll open up for recruitment. 331 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:10,120 And that's where previous trainees become so critical and getting the word out that 332 00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:12,880 we are recruiting for the program. 333 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,560 We have a centralized database where applicants would fill out their application, upload their 334 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,440 CV and letters. 335 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,620 And then after a pre-screen, those applications are sent to us. 336 00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:26,620 We have an admissions committee. 337 00:21:26,620 --> 00:21:32,400 We view the application and decide which applicants have the right type of research. 338 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:38,240 It needs to be heart, lung, and blood focused research or sickle cell disease. 339 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:43,320 A lot of young people doing sickle cell disease research. 340 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,880 And then whether or not they have the environment and support at their home institution, this 341 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:49,880 is critical. 342 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:56,000 So we ask the chairperson to put in writing that this trainee is going to have to protect 343 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:01,520 the time to be able to participate in the pride program 100%. 344 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,120 And it's a year long program. 345 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:07,400 And if they pass all of those things, then we do a... 346 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:08,880 We do a Zoom interview. 347 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:15,240 And once we say, this is a good person to possibly recruit, after that our admissions 348 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,040 committee makes a recommendation. 349 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:25,280 And hopefully, if I present, we'll start recruiting in the winter of 24 or the summer of 24. 350 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,380 So it's really short. 351 00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:29,400 That first year is a quick turnaround. 352 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,800 And so people being able to make the commitment on the first year of training, summer institute 353 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:41,400 is two weeks, and then they have a mentoring on networking, peer mentoring throughout the 354 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:42,400 year. 355 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:47,960 And then they come back the subsequent summer for a second summer institute, which is shorter. 356 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,320 We just see 10 days. 357 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,880 We're playing around with whether the second institute will be virtual, because it is hard 358 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,760 for individuals now to stay for that long. 359 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,860 And after COVID, everybody's pretty much gone to some type of virtual. 360 00:23:03,860 --> 00:23:09,600 So you get an in-person interaction, which is so important to get to know your mentee 361 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,800 colleagues. 362 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,840 And then the second summer, maybe do a little bit of virtual mixed in with it. 363 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:24,880 And then after that, you get a certificate of completion from Dr. Gibbons at NHLBI. 364 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:32,880 And since after you trained, starting with the last cohort, they now give pilot funding. 365 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:40,820 Yes, stats for research pilot project to help jumpstart the mentee's training. 366 00:23:40,820 --> 00:23:42,840 So we're very excited about that. 367 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,920 We now have four cohorts who have been funded through NHLBI. 368 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:53,080 And we're waiting to see if it translates into more grants and funding. 369 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,680 But it's wonderful to have a little bit of money to get started. 370 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,960 It's not quite as much as like K-12. 371 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:04,360 And I think it's wonderful to have that pilot funding, so you get training and you get a 372 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:05,360 little money. 373 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:06,360 That's pretty awesome. 374 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:07,360 That's pretty awesome. 375 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:11,240 Well, tell us, what's the inclusion and exclusion criteria? 376 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,200 Okay, it's for underrepresented junior faculty. 377 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,240 You have to have a faculty position. 378 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,480 So you can be finishing your fellowship. 379 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,560 And if you have your letter of offer signed, we can take you. 380 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:32,040 And underrepresented is defined based on NIH definition, African-American, Hispanic, Native, 381 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,680 Islanders, et cetera, that definition. 382 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,680 You have to be a U.S. citizen. 383 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:39,680 What else? 384 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:40,680 You have to be committed. 385 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,280 You have to commit to spend and have the protected time to participate. 386 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:51,080 And disabled junior faculty, we're actually looking to help train some disabled faculty. 387 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:56,680 If you have a disability, you can be any race, doesn't have to be underrepresented. 388 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,200 So those are the main criteria. 389 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,240 Assistant professor level is what we most commonly see. 390 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:08,880 Occasionally, we'll have been an associate professor, but in general, assistant professor 391 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:15,520 instructors for the bench research and research scientists, they have a faculty position. 392 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,440 I think that's mostly K. Did I miss out? 393 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,800 Did I leave anything out? 394 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:26,560 Do they have to be a research one institution to participate? 395 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,160 A research one institution? 396 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,960 Like a research one institution. 397 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:31,960 No, no. 398 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:41,120 The pride program is there to help anyone who wants to improve their skills, experience 399 00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:44,520 mentoring and be successful in their career. 400 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:55,440 Our mentees have come from the Ivy League institutions, Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, 401 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,600 all the way down to the community colleges. 402 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:03,240 The community undergraduate colleges where they teach, they have a chance to do some 403 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,960 bench research, our PhDs. 404 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,400 And we've been able to turn some of those people, their careers around and they get 405 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,640 funding and they do better and be able to get more protected time. 406 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:20,880 But we really look at each individual candidate, their potential to be successful, how much 407 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:26,120 they want it and if they have the support at the institution. 408 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:33,000 So I would say we go this full spectrum and across the country, we have people from all 409 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,760 the way East Coast, New York, all the way down to San Diego. 410 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:46,880 But the majority of our trainees come from around Augusta, the Georgia area. 411 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:52,400 And then a lot come from the Midwest. 412 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,200 Is this only MDs or is this PhDs as well? 413 00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:03,480 You have any degree, it could be MD, MD PhD, straight PhD, veterinary medicine, we've had 414 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:10,840 people in that, nurses, PhDs, we have a really strong cohort of nurses who are doing research. 415 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:20,400 DO, so as long as it's a recognized faculty position, I would say about 50% of our trainees 416 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:26,000 are bench researchers and about 50% MDs. 417 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,760 So it's a pretty hefty split, equal split between them. 418 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,120 But then the majority of our trainees are doing either bench research or clinical research 419 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:37,360 related to sickle cell disease. 420 00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:39,800 Now I want to ask you about the peer mentoring program. 421 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,040 You have a pretty unique component with the peer mentoring. 422 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,960 Do you want to speak about that? 423 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,280 It is wonderful. 424 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:52,120 We started the peer mentoring program with our last round of funding for Pride III. 425 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:56,280 And we just started off experimenting, I did some reading on it and kind of the pros and 426 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,740 cons of peer mentoring and so forth. 427 00:27:58,740 --> 00:28:02,880 But in general, I thought it was more positive than negative. 428 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:09,560 And so we teamed up with our education institute on campus and we used that faculty who has 429 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,720 some expertise in it to actually set up a peer mentoring program. 430 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,800 I can't remember, did you have peer mentoring during that? 431 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:16,800 Yes, I did. 432 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:17,800 Great. 433 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,120 I think I may have been the first cohort. 434 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:21,700 Okay, okay, very good, very good. 435 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,880 And it was so overwhelmingly successful. 436 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,440 Everybody thought it was just awesome. 437 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,600 And you need many different types of mentors. 438 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:36,760 You have your environment, your institution mentor to help you with your promotion package 439 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,840 and help you with your career development. 440 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:45,280 And your institution, you have research mentors who help you and know expert in your research 441 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:46,840 area. 442 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,800 And then we have the peer mentoring. 443 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,840 They're experiencing the same thing as you. 444 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:58,160 Even though they have a different perspective that they can give to their peers and make 445 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:03,840 you more comfortable talking more freely with your peer mentor, then you might feel talking 446 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,080 to your research mentor or someone in your home department. 447 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:14,680 So I think when you put that all together, we call that a mentoring team, different components. 448 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:21,120 Research mentor, academic development, career development mentor, peer mentor, and we always 449 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:26,360 include the whole research or advisor as well. 450 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,040 So we have four members of the research team. 451 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,200 And Pride actually supports someone who's a leader in the field. 452 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,680 Our mentors in Pride are top notch. 453 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:40,040 One part of it, you know, it's wonderful. 454 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,800 They have never had anyone turn me down to be a mentor. 455 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,280 But I've been invited to the program who I felt could contribute. 456 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:54,680 We have people like, I think, Mohan and Aria, who have been a mentor in the Pride program 457 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:55,680 since 2006. 458 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:56,680 Wow. 459 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:57,680 Wow. 460 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:05,400 Because, you know, he's popular every year and he always participates, very strong supporter. 461 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,200 And so we have a cadre of mentors with different expertise. 462 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:14,960 So we try to build a team so that you can get everything you need. 463 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,640 And so we've continued the peer mentoring program, we actually had our first publication 464 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,360 on it, which was wonderful. 465 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,400 And thank you for congratulations. 466 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,280 And so that we will keep. 467 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:32,000 We decided to formalize it, keep it as part of even the next round of funding and see 468 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,480 if we can kind of expand it. 469 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,480 But overall, it's very successful. 470 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,040 And that's based on the response of the mentees. 471 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,040 That's wonderful. 472 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,040 That's wonderful. 473 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,040 Wow. 474 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,520 I feel like I've asked you as much as I can remember to ask you. 475 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,880 What haven't we talked about, about the Pride program that we should mention? 476 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:57,720 I've talked everything about the program with the teaching faculty, but I've been amazed 477 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:05,960 at how dedicated faculty have been to the Pride program and their willingness to come 478 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,080 back the next year or the next year and support it. 479 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:15,720 I think it gives them a sense of accomplishment and they've contributed to something that's 480 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,200 important. 481 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,120 So from our teaching faculty, we have people who've been teaching a certain topic since 482 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,480 2006, coming every year and teaching it faithfully. 483 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,640 We have mentors like Dr. Narla. 484 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,840 And then we have our staff, which is wonderful. 485 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:42,160 Natasha Alford, who is our program coordinator, and Mayoko Takazaki, who is our research coordinator. 486 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:43,480 They are absolutely wonderful. 487 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,200 I always say they run the program. 488 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,120 Our program is unique, which we haven't talked about. 489 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,240 And maybe you can comment on that as well. 490 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:58,200 Our Summer Institute is a combination of didactic and bench research. 491 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,480 So when you go into the lab and actually conduct some bench research. 492 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:07,640 And we always have people who want to apply say, well, is that going to be useful for 493 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:08,640 me? 494 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,960 I'm a clinician and I want to do clinical research. 495 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:18,680 And I always say you learn how to do structured research, which can then help you do even 496 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,080 better in your clinical research, taking care of your patients. 497 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:28,480 You learn appropriate approach, learn how to read the literature better. 498 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:29,480 What's a good study? 499 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,560 What's not a good study? 500 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:37,200 And even though you may not continue to use that laboratory technique, it expands your 501 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,200 experience. 502 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,200 It really does. 503 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,040 It makes you appreciate the person who's doing bench research. 504 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:52,160 You know, where they collect data for five years and get one. 505 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:58,840 Everyone that was concerned when they applied, always come back and say, wow, that was a 506 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:00,000 great experience. 507 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,280 Don't take it away. 508 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,680 Just a little, you know, just to get them introduced. 509 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,120 And then of course, you know, the bench researchers love it. 510 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:13,300 So we have the balance between our clinical and our basic science people. 511 00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:14,300 So there's something for everybody. 512 00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:20,320 So we do the fact that now we've expanded and we try to address what research is relevant 513 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,320 at the time. 514 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:27,040 So for instance, 10 years ago, implementation research wouldn't have been relevant. 515 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:34,120 Now the health services research, implementation signs, public health research, we now, health 516 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:40,200 equity, we now try to cover those topics for whatever our mentees need and what the area 517 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,280 of specialty is. 518 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,720 So we're ever changing programs as far as the focus is concerned. 519 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,560 But all we do is sickle cell disease. 520 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,280 You wonder why that is, right? 521 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:57,640 Maybe because I attract a lot of sickle cell disease researchers, that's my field, that's 522 00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,200 what I love. 523 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:04,440 And then actually having an African American director as a role model as well. 524 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,560 I think that that's very important in the program. 525 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,880 And then one other thing that we've tried to change, the majority of our trainees are 526 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:13,880 women. 527 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:19,800 Over the 16 years, about 16 to 70% women. 528 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,400 And so we really want to try to get more men involved. 529 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,640 So that's where we spread the word around and get more men to participate. 530 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,320 But it's not just our program, it's all the private programs. 531 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:36,360 The trend in medicine, I think, and research. 532 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,760 Can you speak to that a little bit? 533 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:39,800 What is going on? 534 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,520 Why do we have fewer men interested? 535 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,560 It's a bigger issue in medical school. 536 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:52,440 If you look at the numbers for the AAMC, there are more women who apply, more women who are 537 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,540 admitted to medical school, and you're feeding that pipeline. 538 00:34:56,540 --> 00:35:02,000 So it's just going to continue further down the pipeline. 539 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,000 It's interesting, in the beginning it seemed like the men are not getting the support or 540 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,920 the women are more ambitious and motivated. 541 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,400 I don't know which one it is. 542 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,480 Probably a little bit of both. 543 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:17,560 But however, it flips when a male gets a faculty position. 544 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:26,240 An underrepresented male will have more chances for mentoring than an underrepresented woman. 545 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:34,200 And I myself, I was fortunate to have one person who cared about my career and helped 546 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,120 me go along and stay on the right path. 547 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:43,040 But I hear so many women talking about they don't have mentors in their institution. 548 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,840 So I think that it's just a trend. 549 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,040 There are more women than men. 550 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,480 I think the numbers are not quite equal. 551 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:56,080 And we're hoping that there's a lot of effort to turn it around though, to get more men 552 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:57,240 involved. 553 00:35:57,240 --> 00:36:01,400 I did a little more heavy promising to men. 554 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:08,040 They participated in the pride program, you know, give them a little extra kind of thing. 555 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,120 It actually helped. 556 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:14,520 So in the last couple of cohorts, we have a good three or four men out of a total of 557 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,180 about 10 trainees. 558 00:36:17,180 --> 00:36:25,320 So we're turning it around, but it is a concerning trend that's going on. 559 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,760 Well thank you for everything you do to increase diversity in research. 560 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,640 And you've been so successful and I appreciate all the work you've done. 561 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,000 Do you have any closing comments for our audience? 562 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:44,120 Well I think that you asked me what would be a burning question for me related to mentoring 563 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:51,200 and what I've been able to accomplish in the pride program is I would ask the public, even 564 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:59,680 when I received my award for leadership and diversity for ASH, my plea to the ASH, a 565 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,560 leadership is everybody needs to mentor. 566 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:12,280 Everybody should have some degree of commitment to mentoring the younger generation because 567 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:17,800 if we don't do it, no one will and the younger generation will not have the keys they need 568 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,760 to be successful. 569 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,320 So there are faculty I know who've never mentored anybody. 570 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,560 They're very successful, big grants, big labs. 571 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:33,560 They only mentor maybe a postdoc, but they don't take to heart other junior faculty 572 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:39,040 and they build strong programs, but they don't reach back in, kind of pay it forward to the 573 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:40,040 next generation. 574 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:48,320 So I'm very concerned and always making a plea for people to be more sensitive to mentoring 575 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:54,400 and be more dedicated to mentoring throughout their career. 576 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,240 I just don't think that we have enough people who want to train a mentor. 577 00:37:59,240 --> 00:38:02,800 Why do you think that is? 578 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:08,560 It is hard work. 579 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,040 It's like a new baby in a diaper. 580 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,240 It's like having a house full of children. 581 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:22,360 Yeah, especially something like a pride program where you'd be a mother figure to attend junior 582 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:29,240 faculty a year and they always, even though I might not be there assigned a research mentor, 583 00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:33,840 it's sort of like a given fact that Dr. Pace, everybody's mentoring and they feel they can 584 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,160 call on me at any time. 585 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:43,720 And I try to answer because once you become a part of the pride cohort and the village, 586 00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:44,920 we're always there for you. 587 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:46,720 That's what we tell people. 588 00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:53,120 But I remember early on I was like, can I do this? 589 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:59,120 The first funding cycle, it was so hard, the amount of planning and arranging for the summer 590 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,360 institutes and support. 591 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,320 You know how we waited on you all hand. 592 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:04,320 Oh, you too? 593 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,320 You got the royal treatment. 594 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:07,320 Yeah. 595 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,320 We want our to be the best. 596 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:14,040 It's like, I'm not going to do it if it can't be the best. 597 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,880 And so it's a lot of work and then keeping it up in between the institutes. 598 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,840 Some years we have two sets of cohorts, you know, up to 20 trainees. 599 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,760 The whole month of July is like training people. 600 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:33,320 And I did get discouraged in the first round of funding and say, can I do this? 601 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,200 And then you haven't seen the fruits of your labor yet. 602 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:42,520 The trainees need time to see that they're going to get the grants, get the promotion. 603 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,960 So and then, you know, like with everything, there are some trainees who were a little 604 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:52,720 bit ungrateful for their experience, but it is what it is. 605 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:58,840 So I think it took time for me to say, I'm doing this for me. 606 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,200 That it's important that I do it because I love doing it. 607 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,080 And don't expect any praise or thanks or, you know, just do it. 608 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:12,920 It's nice when people say thank you, like, you know, you show your appreciation. 609 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,400 So at least you say, okay, I'm accomplishing what I need to accomplish. 610 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:23,760 However, you can't be in this business looking for someone to praise you and to motivate 611 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,280 you along and has to come from within. 612 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,080 So, but it is hard work. 613 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,080 It really is. 614 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,160 How do you do a lot of mentoring? 615 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,040 Well you know, this podcast is part of one of my efforts because what I see is that there's 616 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:39,800 such a gap in knowledge. 617 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,000 And like you, I feel that if people just had information before they started the faculty 618 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,080 position, so much harm would be avoided. 619 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,860 But I still think people can turn it around too. 620 00:40:50,860 --> 00:40:53,680 And so a lot of it is getting information out there. 621 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,840 So yes, but you know, I feel like, I mean, outside of a training program, you can't, 622 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,320 there's not that many you can mentor at one time. 623 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:01,320 Yes. 624 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:06,360 Well, I still do my one-on-one, you know, in the lab, not as much because the pride 625 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,080 program has kind of consumed my effort for mentoring. 626 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,760 But if a student want to do some research with us, we actually had a medical student 627 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:19,600 who was funded by ASH to spend a year doing some, a short research project with us. 628 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,600 So I still do that. 629 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,360 I'm not no longer training any more PhD students. 630 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,640 I graduated my last PhD students, so you can mentor in that way. 631 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:29,960 But yeah, you're right. 632 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,320 It's more difficult if you're not having the time one-on-one. 633 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,320 And I'm also faculty in the graduate school. 634 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,880 And that's where the majority of the training will come from. 635 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:44,080 I mean, medical, you're just going to have the fellows and they tend to be a different 636 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:45,080 type of mentoring. 637 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,080 Sure. 638 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:54,040 Yeah, one thing I've done more of is coaching because I can't mentor as many people intensely, 639 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,960 but I can coach people through and connect them to resources. 640 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,800 So what is the difference between coaching and mentoring? 641 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:08,560 Wow, so I feel like if I say mentoring is more like, to some extent, it's more like 642 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:09,560 mothering, right? 643 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,000 It's the labor pains of bringing people forward. 644 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:16,000 Coaching, I think, is more, you do the work. 645 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,880 If you want to do it, you do it. 646 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:23,600 But helping you figure out what resources do you need to access so you can move forward. 647 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,840 So it's very much dependent on the person to move forward. 648 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:27,960 Interesting. 649 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,160 So I guess that means I'm both a mentor and a coach. 650 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,000 Yes, you are. 651 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:38,040 And that's, you know, as part of some of the training I did, it's to be able to mentor 652 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,040 as a coach. 653 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,360 You know, one of the things you said in the beginning that really resonated with me is 654 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:47,600 that we start from what people love to do, not having people say, can you just follow 655 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:48,600 me? 656 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,400 Just do what I do, which, yeah, you'll succeed, but you won't be happy. 657 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:58,760 And so the coaching piece allows people to say, you tell me what is the future that gives 658 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,000 you joy? 659 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,760 Just help you create that. 660 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,040 And I think mentors could do that too. 661 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,200 And maybe over time, we'll have more mentors who are coaching too. 662 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:08,200 Sure. 663 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:13,120 And even more important, when you see a young person going down the wrong path, you say, 664 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,800 you know, maybe you should consider doing something else. 665 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,080 I've coached in that way as well. 666 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,080 And it turned out successful. 667 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,080 Sure. 668 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,760 But it's sometimes just having that insight and working with the young faculty. 669 00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:31,520 You know, not that you want to burst their bubble and, you know, seal the dreams, but 670 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,320 with that experience, you can kind of steer them in a better direction. 671 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,320 Yeah. 672 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:37,320 Yeah. 673 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,880 I think ultimately it's caring enough about the person to get to know what they need so 674 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,760 that you can help them get there. 675 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:43,760 Yeah. 676 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:44,760 No, it's wonderful. 677 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,880 I really have enjoyed speaking with you. 678 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:48,880 Thank you. 679 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:49,880 Thank you. 680 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,880 And congratulations on your effort and podcast. 681 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:52,880 Thank you. 682 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:53,880 Perfect fit. 683 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,280 So let me know when it airs so I can listen. 684 00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,920 And then just send me the information on, you know, when your podcast airs, I can listen 685 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,240 in and learn something as well. 686 00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:06,240 You never stop learning. 687 00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:07,240 Sure. 688 00:44:07,240 --> 00:44:08,240 Really appreciate your time. 689 00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:09,800 No, it's been my pleasure. 690 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:10,800 All right. 691 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,760 For everyone who's been listening, you've heard Dr. Pace, if when it's time, if you 692 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:19,360 are eligible for the Pride program, please, it is a phenomenal program. 693 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:20,360 It will change your life. 694 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:25,320 And even if you feel like you're not eligible, still apply and you'd rather be turned down 695 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,600 than to actually not applying you all along where eligible. 696 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:29,600 All right. 697 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:39,600 And you can go to our website, www.edagusta.edu slash pride. 698 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:40,600 All right. 699 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,320 I'm going to put that in the show notes. 700 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,520 So please check the show notes so you can get that information. 701 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,320 And if they're looking for you, how can they find you? 702 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:54,720 See as in boy pace at a desk, that idiot. 703 00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:55,720 Very simple. 704 00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:56,720 You can put that there as well. 705 00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:57,720 So I'd love to hear from you. 706 00:44:57,720 --> 00:44:58,720 Thank you so much for being on the show. 707 00:44:58,720 --> 00:44:59,720 It's been a pleasure to have you. 708 00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:16,360 Thanks for listening to this episode of the clinician researcher podcast, where academic 709 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:21,440 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 710 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,120 have a mentor. 711 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:29,080 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 712 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:30,960 Someone else needs to hear it. 713 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,020 So take a minute right now and share it. 714 00:45:35,020 --> 00:45:40,480 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 715 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:46,520 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.