1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.

7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,040
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

12
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,840
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

13
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,720
I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is a pleasure to be talking with you today.

14
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:08,720
Thank you for tuning in.

15
00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,640
Today I'm going to be talking about how to find opportunities to mentor others.

16
00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:24,200
Now when I was maybe three to five years into my first faculty appointment, and I was struggling

17
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,640
with mentoring experiences, and so I'd had a variety of experiences.

18
00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,640
I'd had the mentor that I was afraid of.

19
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:36,360
I'd had the mentor who I didn't feel like really gave me very much, and I kind of just

20
00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,400
felt like I was struggling, and I was like, where can I find a mentor?

21
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,040
Where can I find the mentor who will help me?

22
00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,080
And so I had this whole sense of just lacking a mentor.

23
00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:50,360
And so whenever I would go places and people would ask, hey, so who's your mentor?

24
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,080
Who's your primary mentor?

25
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:57,400
It really was a question that caused me pain, because I was like, well, I don't have a mentor.

26
00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:58,400
Stop asking me that question.

27
00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,880
I mean, you always have mentors.

28
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,120
You have lots of mentors.

29
00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:06,680
Just in the way in which I wanted to move forward in my research, I didn't have a mentor

30
00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,600
that was like the primary person that I could turn to, that I felt like I could trust to

31
00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,240
really direct me, lead me in the right direction.

32
00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,840
Anyway, there I was just struggling over how I felt like I didn't have enough and I needed

33
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:19,840
a mentor.

34
00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,040
And you know, my life, I feel like, was consumed by looking for the mentor.

35
00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:25,160
You know the one?

36
00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:30,600
The one who loves you, the one who thinks you're like a star, the one who sets up opportunities

37
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:36,500
for you, the one who is always asking about your welfare, wants to know about your family,

38
00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:39,280
the one who is always giving you opportunities.

39
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,280
You know, that mentor?

40
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,640
The one that most of us have found does not exist.

41
00:02:45,640 --> 00:02:46,640
Yes, that mentor.

42
00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:48,800
Anyway, so I didn't find that mentor.

43
00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:53,320
And so I was always looking and clearly struggling to find the mentor.

44
00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:58,240
And finally, I had an opportunity where I had someone come up to me who was a medical

45
00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,720
student at the time.

46
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:03,440
And I was again, three, four years into my faculty position and they asked, hey, can

47
00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:04,440
I work with you?

48
00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,440
And I was like, well, me, I need a mentor.

49
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:07,440
What do you mean?

50
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:08,440
Can you work with me?

51
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,480
But you know, they were sincere and earnest.

52
00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:16,660
And I was like, well, I do have some projects that I need someone to help me work on.

53
00:03:16,660 --> 00:03:20,440
And that is how our relationship started.

54
00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:28,560
And so many mentees beyond that first experience, what I realized is that being a mentor really

55
00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,800
helped me grow.

56
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:36,160
And it would have been nice to feel like I had the mentor who supported me or was there

57
00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:37,700
for me in every way.

58
00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:39,880
And I don't feel like I have that.

59
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,120
But by becoming a mentor, I really had to grow.

60
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,560
You know, it's one of those things where it's like, well, someone's down depending on me

61
00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:47,280
to help set their direction.

62
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,840
Well, I better figure it out for myself.

63
00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,560
And so it was really a great opportunity.

64
00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,800
And I'm inviting you to step into that space to become a mentor.

65
00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:01,800
And I'm going to share with you five ways to find opportunities to become a mentor,

66
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,080
sort of mentor others.

67
00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,680
And I think before I start, it's really important to know that you have something to teach others.

68
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,880
You have something to show.

69
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:17,400
No matter how far behind you think you are compared to your peers, there is always someone

70
00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:22,880
that could benefit from the information and the experience that you have.

71
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,840
And so it's important to stop thinking about yourself as someone who doesn't have enough

72
00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:31,160
and to start thinking about, well, what do I have to give?

73
00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:36,080
And as you think about it that way, it becomes more evident how you can support the careers

74
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:41,600
of people who are younger than you, or even, I would argue, people at your career stage

75
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:47,240
and really help them move forward because of the expertise and the experience that you have.

76
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,800
So let's talk about how to find opportunities to mentor others.

77
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,720
So I think the first thing that's most obvious is to look behind you.

78
00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:01,720
And in general, I do mean trainees because I am talking to a faculty audience, but it

79
00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,240
doesn't have to be a faculty member looking to trainees.

80
00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,880
It could even be the trainees looking to the med students.

81
00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:09,880
So let's say you're a fellow.

82
00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,760
It's like, OK, well, you can support residents in their development.

83
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:15,920
If you're a resident, you can support a medical student.

84
00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:20,020
So just looking behind you, who is the next step after you?

85
00:05:20,020 --> 00:05:22,600
And how could they benefit from your support?

86
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:27,080
Who's the next person that you could help enhance their careers?

87
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,600
And now the challenge sometimes with people who are, let's say, a step behind you, and

88
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:32,800
I don't mean beneath you.

89
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,080
I don't mean below you.

90
00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,520
It's really just behind, right?

91
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:36,960
You're five years ahead.

92
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:42,120
You came to the game five years earlier than the people behind you.

93
00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,480
And so they're behind you in terms of just the timeline.

94
00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,960
It doesn't mean they're inferior to you in any way.

95
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,120
It doesn't mean that you're superior to them in any way.

96
00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:55,280
It just means that you are, in a sense, fast-tracked forward because you came first in time.

97
00:05:55,280 --> 00:05:59,440
And so it's looking behind you at people who are just immediately in the place that you

98
00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,800
were two, three years ago and saying, well, how can I benefit them?

99
00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,440
Now, the thing about, and I was saying earlier, the thing about people who are a little bit

100
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,080
behind you is that they really are looking to have a real big delta between where they

101
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,180
are and the mentor that they have.

102
00:06:13,180 --> 00:06:18,600
And sometimes you recognize that, yeah, those senior mentors really have a lot to offer

103
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,640
in a way that perhaps mentors who are earlier in their career may not necessarily be able

104
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:24,640
to.

105
00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:33,040
But one thing that's different is the time that earlier mentors have to invest in someone

106
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:38,160
who's coming along behind them compared to, say, a senior mentor who, yeah, has a lot

107
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:42,320
of experience, has a lot of value, but may not have as much time.

108
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,920
And mentees may feel like they're lost in the system just trying to get an appointment,

109
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,700
trying to get on the schedule, trying to get these weekly mentoring meetings that we're

110
00:06:50,700 --> 00:06:53,360
told is the Holy Grail, right?

111
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:59,600
Anyway, so just saying that it is true that many people who are maybe a couple of years,

112
00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,080
a couple of steps behind you feel like, oh, no, I want someone who's more senior, more

113
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:05,080
experienced.

114
00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,600
And they may not necessarily look to you to be their mentor.

115
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:09,960
And that's OK.

116
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,480
The reality, though, is that there are many people who look to you to be a mentor.

117
00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,120
And it's to those people that I want you to give your attention.

118
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,760
Because, you know, we're seeking the people who don't care for us.

119
00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,240
And it's a lot of energy invested.

120
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,360
And they really don't want our help.

121
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,080
And so it's important to just acknowledge those who don't want your help and let them

122
00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:30,080
go.

123
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:31,880
But recognize that there are people who do.

124
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:32,880
And find them.

125
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:33,880
Seek them out.

126
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,080
I mean, they might come seek you out.

127
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,360
The opportunity would likely present itself.

128
00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,280
But just make sure that you recognize that there are people who value your expertise.

129
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,960
There are people who value your stage of career.

130
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:55,000
And those are the people to whom your experience is beneficial, your leadership is important.

131
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,280
Those are the kind of people to whom your leadership is important.

132
00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,040
So definitely look behind you.

133
00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:03,040
Who's coming along?

134
00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:04,040
Who needs help?

135
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,400
Who actually wants your help?

136
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:06,400
Right?

137
00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,560
So there's the place of you wanting to be a mentor.

138
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,160
There's the place of the person actually wanting you to mentor them.

139
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,400
And I would say that this is not something to take personally.

140
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,240
People who want your expertise, who want your help, will benefit the most from you because

141
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,720
they actually want what you have.

142
00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,440
As opposed to people about whom you think, well, you know, this person could use my help.

143
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,640
But they're like, oh, I don't want you.

144
00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,880
They could use your help for sure.

145
00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,320
But if for whatever reason they decide that you're not the person to move them forward,

146
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:39,320
then you're not.

147
00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:40,320
And it's okay.

148
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:41,320
It's okay.

149
00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,120
But the first one is to look immediately behind you.

150
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:49,480
And that's usually if you're an early faculty member, that's, you know, a couple of years

151
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:50,480
behind you.

152
00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,240
So someone's still in training, but it doesn't have to be like faculty to trainee.

153
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:59,320
It could be trainee to trainee, medical student, being mentored by a resident or fellow mentoring

154
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,320
a resident.

155
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:01,680
There are many opportunities.

156
00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:05,960
So definitely look behind you because you have something to teach and there's someone

157
00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,920
who is it's going to benefit really from what you have, no matter how little you think it

158
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:11,920
is.

159
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:14,320
And what's interesting is that you don't know how much you know, you don't know how much

160
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,080
experience you have until you actually start to share it.

161
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,520
And that's one of the reasons that mentoring is so powerful and mentoring as early as possible

162
00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:22,520
is important.

163
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:23,520
Okay.

164
00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,760
The second thing is to look around you, peers.

165
00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:32,440
So one of the most valuable things I have come to understand is just the value of peer

166
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:33,440
mentoring.

167
00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:39,000
And I think some people may use the term near peer mentoring, meaning there are peers that

168
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,120
are absolutely your peers, you're all kind of in the same group.

169
00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,600
You've come on board at the same time.

170
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,240
You've had the same number of years of experience in academia.

171
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,840
Or it could be a near peer mentor, someone who's just a year ahead or just two years

172
00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:54,840
ahead.

173
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:56,200
Like they're literally close to you.

174
00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,620
They're not that far ahead, but they've had a little bit of experience with some things

175
00:09:59,620 --> 00:10:00,840
that you may not have.

176
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:06,680
For example, you're at an institution and you've been there maybe three months.

177
00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:11,680
The person who's been there a year has navigated some of the new faculty challenges that they

178
00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:14,800
could help you and they could have helped mentor you in.

179
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:19,200
And so yes, when I'm talking about the peers, I'm talking about your peer mentors and your

180
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:20,200
near peer mentors.

181
00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:26,200
That's someone who's exactly at the same level as you in terms of time in the academy and

182
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,760
also someone who is, well, maybe a year or two ahead of you.

183
00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,560
Those are your peer mentors.

184
00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:40,560
And I think the peer mentoring network is so valuable because your peers, first of all,

185
00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:48,720
they are less likely to have grandiose views of themselves and feel as if they must dispense

186
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,040
to your advice that has to be taken no matter what.

187
00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,000
Sometimes mentors feel like, well, I gave you advice and you didn't take it.

188
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:56,000
How dare you?

189
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,640
I'm the expert.

190
00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:04,280
And let's just say that with mentors who are at your level or near peer, they're less likely

191
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,280
to have those kinds of attitudes.

192
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,560
And so there's more safety around peer mentors.

193
00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:14,600
There's opportunities to talk about things that are really, really relevant because they've

194
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,400
just passed through something or they're currently going through something that you're experiencing

195
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:23,960
currently as opposed to sometimes the senior mentors where they did this thing you're doing

196
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:28,680
right now 20 years ago and times have changed, experiences have changed.

197
00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:33,800
And they may not be able to mentor you in detail in that thing that matters more to

198
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:34,800
you.

199
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,520
For example, your mentor who's 20 years ahead may no longer have little ones at home.

200
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,320
And so even though they remember vaguely what it meant to have little ones at home, it's

201
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:47,000
going to be a different kind of mentoring you get from someone who's like, oh yeah,

202
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,200
my kids were three and four years old just last year.

203
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:55,180
So it's a very, very powerful experience to be mentored by someone who's a peer and to

204
00:11:55,180 --> 00:11:56,360
provide mentoring.

205
00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:57,880
So it's two-way street, right?

206
00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,740
You are seeking mentoring among peers, but you're also mentoring them as well.

207
00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:07,560
And some of that can be very organic, but it's important also to be intentional about

208
00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:08,560
it.

209
00:12:08,560 --> 00:12:14,240
It's like, OK, we may not have a senior mentor that is the senior mentor that everybody recommends,

210
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:15,320
but we have each other.

211
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,200
How can we support each other?

212
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:22,040
And you'll find that some peers have written certain grant applications that you have not

213
00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:28,520
yet had the opportunity to write, or some peer mentors have been successful in a certain

214
00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:30,720
thing that you have not yet been successful in.

215
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,000
And vice versa, right?

216
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,200
You could be the person who's had experience with this particular grant.

217
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,880
You can support your peer mentors to do that.

218
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:46,240
So definitely look around you at your peer or near peer mentors and receive mentoring

219
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:50,120
from them and then offer them the opportunity to be mentored by you too.

220
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,440
So it's not the traditional hierarchical mentoring model, but still a mentoring model that's

221
00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,480
helping you to grow in your skills as a mentor.

222
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,240
All right.

223
00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,160
So number three is to look in front of you.

224
00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:06,160
Now, this is interesting.

225
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,080
Now, when I say look in front of you, it's like, who are those who've gone ahead of you?

226
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:16,160
Yeah, the people we traditionally call mentors who are like 20, 30 years ahead of you.

227
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,200
And sometimes there's a sense that, well, what can I teach them?

228
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,200
They know everything.

229
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,040
And I would just say, hmm, you want to be careful there.

230
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,520
I think senior mentors have a lot of experience, but there are a lot of things that are changing

231
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,480
that they may not know.

232
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:38,000
For example, now as an attending who rounds every couple of months in the hospital, it

233
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:45,520
feels as if there's always a new scoring metric or a new probability weight or some new

234
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:52,240
technique or some new tool that's being used to stratify patients, to make decisions about

235
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,240
who gets what therapies.

236
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,080
And if you are not, especially in internal medicine, if you're not keeping track of the

237
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,880
literature, you could miss a lot.

238
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:07,320
And so some of your trainees are able to mentor you in some things that you thought, well,

239
00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:08,320
you have no idea about.

240
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,240
It's like, oh, this is interesting.

241
00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,120
What is this new score?

242
00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:13,560
How is it applied?

243
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:15,160
And so vice versa.

244
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,600
So when you think about yourself and you think about yourself and the people who are 20,

245
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:24,120
30 years ahead of you, maybe some of them are not so well versed in the new technological

246
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:25,480
things that are rising.

247
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,200
OK, maybe it's about being on social media and it's becoming important for all faculty

248
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:31,200
at your institution.

249
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,840
And you're able to provide mentoring to people who are ahead of you.

250
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:40,200
OK, so it's just seeing that there is value that you provide as well and there's value

251
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,600
that you can provide to senior mentors as well.

252
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,760
I think in general, medicine is hierarchical and there's this sense of like, oh, no, I

253
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:53,520
can mentor someone who's behind me a few years, but I'm not going to attempt to mentor somebody

254
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:54,520
who's ahead.

255
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,360
I think it's thinking differently about mentoring.

256
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,400
It's not necessarily that you're taking this person, meeting with them, meeting with them

257
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,440
weekly, asking them to do things specifically.

258
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,240
But it's just seeing in every interaction, how can you serve in every interaction?

259
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,080
How can you benefit them in every interaction?

260
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,600
How can you support them as they need to?

261
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:18,760
And mentors improve because their mentees support them to improve.

262
00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:24,960
So sometimes part of, you know, serving as a mentor to your mentors is helping them mentor

263
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,520
you better.

264
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:33,440
It's finding the opportunity to say, you know what, when you said blah, it didn't really

265
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,560
help me move forward in the way I thought it might have.

266
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:41,040
And maybe next time if you had done X, Y, Z, that would have been more helpful.

267
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:48,880
So it's really important to recognize and own your place as an individual who's worthy

268
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:55,320
of respect and able really to manage how they are managed, right?

269
00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,360
How you want to be managed.

270
00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:02,040
Because the person who's the expert in how to treat you well and with respect is you.

271
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,840
And sometimes people don't know how to treat you with respect.

272
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:11,360
And it's your responsibility, your job, your obligation to help them do better.

273
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,720
And this may be with even peer or near peer mentors or even with mentees that you have,

274
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:23,040
but even looking ahead to your mentors by helping them support you best, you are also

275
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,200
helping them to become a better mentor.

276
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:30,000
And so recognize that you also can look in front of you to people who are ahead of you

277
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,320
and you can help mentor them.

278
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:37,760
Again, not in the traditional sense of the word mentor, but help them advance in some

279
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:45,200
way in a way or in a sphere in which you already have expertise, whatever that expertise is.

280
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,840
Okay, we used the example of social media.

281
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,520
That's quite believable.

282
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,880
But even in the example of helping them to treat you respectfully or in a way that's

283
00:16:53,880 --> 00:17:00,480
meaningful to you, for you to be able to pause long enough to say, hey, when you call me

284
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,760
by this name, it actually doesn't feel respectful.

285
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:06,960
What I would prefer is this name.

286
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:13,640
You know, whatever you, I mean, I'm just throwing phrases out there, but really, you know what

287
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,560
would be meaningful to you in terms of helping someone serve you better.

288
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,440
And that's an important piece of mentoring as well.

289
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:22,800
There we go.

290
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:28,400
Number four is to consider, actually is to make sure that you are in a relationship of

291
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,000
equals, and this is so important.

292
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,800
Many times, again, medicine is hierarchical and there's a sense of like, well, the mentor

293
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:41,800
is God and you are lucky to have, you know, an audience with this person.

294
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:48,880
And I will say that mentors are busy, absolutely, and their time is valuable and so is your

295
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:49,880
time.

296
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,160
And so it's important to recognize that it's a relationship of equals.

297
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:58,560
Yes, they are ahead of you, maybe by three or four years or even five or 20 years, but

298
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,360
you are worthy of being treated with respect as they are worthy of being treated with respect.

299
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:08,800
And so you don't want to come into any of your relationships thinking, well, I'm superior.

300
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:14,480
Let's say you're in the mentoring role or the more obvious mentoring role or I'm inferior

301
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,700
when you're in the more obvious mentee role.

302
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:18,700
It doesn't help.

303
00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,560
It's not helpful to have that kind of feeling of like, well, I'm not enough.

304
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,520
I am in this role because it doesn't help you get what you need.

305
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:32,200
And the purpose of any mentoring relationship is really to benefit the mentee.

306
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,880
I know, I know we talk about how well, you know, the mentor has to benefit.

307
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,200
And yeah, the mentor always will.

308
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:44,180
But the mentee is really the primary recipient of benefit in any mentoring relationship.

309
00:18:44,180 --> 00:18:50,100
And so it's important, though, that the mentee doesn't feel like they're not enough or that

310
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:54,680
there's something wrong with them coming from a deficit mindset, because it affects the

311
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,360
way you can extract benefit from your mentor to benefit you.

312
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:04,760
And so recognizing that, yeah, you're a few years behind in terms of the timeline, but

313
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:10,880
you are still worthy of respect, worthy of honor, worthy of being spoken to carefully.

314
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:16,080
And if some mentors don't know that, you have the opportunity to help them grow that way.

315
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:23,080
And again, the same comes from you being a mentor of a mentee who's a more obvious mentee.

316
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:24,560
You're not superior.

317
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,280
You're not, you know, you're not all that.

318
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,600
You are, you know, equally worthy of respect as they are worthy of respect.

319
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:35,600
And so it's just important.

320
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:41,640
I think we have a lot of examples where people don't treat people well, or they demand respect

321
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,480
or they demand subservience, and it's not respectful.

322
00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,440
So we're surrounded by those kinds of examples all the time, and it doesn't mean we have

323
00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,040
to subscribe to them.

324
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:58,080
And part of not subscribing, part of opting out of that is to treat the people who are

325
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,360
your mentees well.

326
00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:04,360
And you do that by recognizing that, hey, it's a relationship of equals.

327
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:06,760
It's a relationship of equals.

328
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,180
And we are all deserving and worthy of respect.

329
00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:14,000
And so we start by respecting them so that they can also respect us.

330
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:19,360
But then even if they don't respect us, we also have the opportunity to continue to respect

331
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:20,360
as well.

332
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:25,000
OK, so make sure that you're in a relationship of equals, whether that is you as the mentor

333
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,000
or you as the mentee.

334
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,600
And then the last thing I want to share is to ensure that the mentoring situation is

335
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:31,600
win-win.

336
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,320
And this was something that I struggled with when I first started mentoring.

337
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,120
It was just the sense of like, OK, what do you what does my mentee need?

338
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:39,120
What does my mentee need?

339
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:40,880
Let's make sure they get that.

340
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,040
And anything that your mentee is winning in that doesn't also help you move forward is

341
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,320
just an opportunity squandered.

342
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:53,640
For example, let's say you have manuscripts you want to move forward and you accept someone

343
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:59,040
to become a mentee, then it's fair that they help you move the manuscripts forward and

344
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,560
you both get authorship.

345
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,120
You as senior, they as a primary or a first author.

346
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,120
That's great.

347
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:12,000
But for I mean, this is less likely to happen for you to be a mentor and they're the primary

348
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,240
author and they're the second and they're the corresponding author.

349
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,900
It is beneficial to the trainee or to the person who you're mentoring.

350
00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:23,620
But perhaps that's a position you wanted for yourself.

351
00:21:23,620 --> 00:21:28,680
It's worth stepping up and saying, hey, this should be win-win for you.

352
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,960
You can take the lead as the first author and I'll take the lead as a senior author

353
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,580
and also be corresponding.

354
00:21:33,580 --> 00:21:34,800
So that's just an example.

355
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,240
I'm not saying that's the way it has to be.

356
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:42,400
What I am saying is that it is beneficial when your mentoring moves your mentee forward

357
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,520
and moves you forward as well.

358
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,640
And so you don't want to go out of your way to provide projects that the mentee benefits

359
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,780
from but you don't benefit from.

360
00:21:51,780 --> 00:21:57,680
And to be honest, the same goes with when you are the mentee working with a senior mentor,

361
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,440
like they win, you win, you win, they win.

362
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:07,360
And so you always want to structure the relationship in such a way as to make sure that they win

363
00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:10,080
when you win and you win when they win.

364
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,800
So the win-win is so key.

365
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,240
It's so critical.

366
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,800
You absolutely want to win and you want your mentee to win as well.

367
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:23,160
Okay, so the five things I said, look behind you at trainees or someone who's even just

368
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,000
two, three years behind you.

369
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,680
Look around you, your peers, both your peer mentors and your near peer mentors.

370
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:31,680
Now look in front of your mentors.

371
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:37,600
They look like they have no needs, but there's always a way that you can serve them in the

372
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,380
things that they are not as comfortable with.

373
00:22:40,380 --> 00:22:43,520
And so you have the opportunity to mentor your mentors.

374
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,780
Number four, you want to make sure that you're in a relationship of equals.

375
00:22:46,780 --> 00:22:48,160
You are not inferior.

376
00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:49,400
You are not superior.

377
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,580
You are both worthy of respect and honor.

378
00:22:52,580 --> 00:22:55,760
And so in making sure you're in a relationship of equals, you don't come from a deficit

379
00:22:55,760 --> 00:23:01,240
mindset, but you also don't encourage any feelings of inferiority around people around

380
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:02,640
you at all.

381
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:03,640
Okay.

382
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,000
And then number six is ensuring that the mentoring is win-win.

383
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,840
When you win, they win as well.

384
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:14,280
Okay, so I am inviting you this week to look around and find someone to mentor today.

385
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,440
Find someone to mentor today.

386
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:17,920
Don't wait till tomorrow.

387
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:22,200
You see the med student who keeps looking for someone who will support them in writing

388
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,720
a manuscript and you know that you have a manuscript that needs to be written, step

389
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:33,960
out, step out and be bold and confident and courageous and find someone to mentor today.

390
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:41,160
Because as you mentor, you definitely become a stronger mentor and you stop thinking of

391
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:47,440
yourself as someone who is lacking things or has specific deficits because you are someone

392
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:52,720
who has a lot that you can share with another generation of providers and it's important

393
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,320
for you to step into your boldness and your confidence to do that.

394
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:57,320
All right.

395
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,680
It's been a pleasure talking with you today.

396
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,160
I look forward to talking with you again the next time.

397
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,440
And remember, if you are looking for a coach, especially if you're a clinician who's trying

398
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:12,360
to make the transition to becoming a researcher, please reach out to me by direct message or

399
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:17,800
even on our voicemail on our website, clinicianresearcherpodcast.com.

400
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:23,680
Love to hear from you and hear about your successes and challenges as you navigate this

401
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,320
amazing journey called academia.

402
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,320
All right.

403
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,800
It's been a pleasure talking with you.

404
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:38,320
I look forward to talking with you again the next time.

405
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,640
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast where academic

406
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:49,120
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

407
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:50,460
have a mentor.

408
00:24:50,460 --> 00:24:56,560
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

409
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,320
Someone else needs to hear it.

410
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,360
So take a minute right now and share it.

411
00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:07,820
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

412
00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:13,760
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.