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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is a pleasure to be talking with you today.

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Thank you for tuning in.

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Thank you for listening.

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I am excited to announce that we will have our next webinar coming up on December 20th

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at noon.

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December 20th at noon, and we're going to be talking about what to do when you cannot

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find a mentor.

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And I'm super excited about it because I'm realizing that so many people are struggling

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with finding a mentor, and they need help.

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And this question really resonates with me because I was a mentee who struggled to find

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mentors.

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I was one of those where I would go to a mentor and they would say, well, that's such a great

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idea.

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Why don't you go to that other person?

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And then I would get to that other person and they would say, oh my goodness, that's

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so brilliant.

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That person can help you.

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There was always somebody else to help me.

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So I personally feel the pain of not being able to find mentors at different stages of

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my life, and I want to share with you what to do when you cannot find a mentor.

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So that's happening December 20th at noon.

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Please save the date.

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Okay.

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The second thing I want to share is that we are definitely open for enrollment for our

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new cohort of faculty coming through our coaching programs.

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And so we have a new cohort starting in January.

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And if you are interested, please reach out to us on our website, Clinician Researcher

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Podcast dot com, or you can reach out to us on our coaching website, GoEyeCoach dot com,

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and just sign up to be added to the wait list.

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And then what we'll do is reach out to you to set up a coaching consultation call to

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make sure that this is the right fit for you.

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And yeah, we would be excited to have you as part of the program.

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So yes.

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Okay.

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So we're going to talk today about why you should have mentors outside your institution.

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I want to tell you that I started out my career having one mentor at my institution.

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And this mentor was always very particular in saying there are too many people telling

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you different things.

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You focus on me.

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I will tell you what to do.

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I will tell you what to do.

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And honestly, I think if you have a great trusting relationship, it makes sense to just

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focus on this one mentor.

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And to be honest, I really trusted this mentor.

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So I just really focused on whatever this mentor told me to do.

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And I happened to be to accept to apply to a program outside of my institution.

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And I remember it was like the first week and a half of this program.

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It was like a summer institute.

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And I remember thinking I was like, wait a minute, no one's ever told me these things

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before.

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Why haven't my mentors told me this?

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And I started to actually mistrust my mentor because I was like, but why how come this

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mentor asked me to just listen to them, but they haven't shared all these things that

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will advance my career.

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And I remember asking, I was like, but is my mentor misleading me?

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And I think I'm very grateful for the person who was leading their program who was not

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trying to detract from the importance of my mentors.

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She was like, no, they just don't necessarily know what you don't know or they may not feel

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like you can handle this information yet.

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So anyway, I feel very strongly about the value of adding external mentors to your mentoring

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team.

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When I say mentoring team, I don't mean to your primary mentor.

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You should always have a mentoring team because you are a complex person.

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You have so many needs.

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One person cannot serve all of your needs.

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So please, please, please, please, please do what you can to have a team of mentors and

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add to your team an external mentor.

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And today I'm going to talk about why you should have mentors outside of your institution,

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why you should add to your mentoring team an external mentor.

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I'm excited about this topic.

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Okay, number one, at your institution, everybody's drinking the same Kool-Aid.

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I'll say it again.

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At your institution, everybody's drinking the same Kool-Aid.

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And you know, this is not anybody's fault.

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It's just that that's what's served in the cafeteria.

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That's what's served in the taps.

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That's what people are breathing.

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People are going, you know, through the institution.

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There is an institutional culture that everyone at your institution is immersed in.

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There is an institutional culture that everyone at your institution is immersed in.

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And especially when it comes to your mentors, especially when they've been at your institution

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a long time, they get institutional culture.

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They live institutional culture.

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They breathe it.

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They eat it.

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They drink it.

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I mean, it's just in their system, right?

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It's like fish in the water.

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And you're like, hey, how's the water today?

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And they're like, what water?

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You're just no longer aware of the environment that sustains you.

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It's like how many times do you think about the air that you're breathing?

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Not unless you require oxygen, supplemental oxygen for any reason, do you really think

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about the value or the importance of the quality of the air that you breathe, right?

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So it's the same way.

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Institutions have a culture.

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Go from one institution to the other.

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And there are different cultures.

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There are some institutional cultures where people make the lowest salaries possible for

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different reasons.

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And there's prestige that kind of can make up.

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So we hear for that low salary.

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But it's an institutional culture that people don't earn above a certain amount.

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It's not said and stone.

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You go to the next institution and they're like, oh, no, no, no.

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Our faculty earn a 50 to 75th percentile of national benchmarks.

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This is what we do.

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So institutions have different cultures.

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And culture is not wrong.

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Culture is just culture.

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It's just people have come together.

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Their minds have come together and they've kind of agreed, consciously or unconsciously,

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that this is the way we do things.

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And it makes the institution work.

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And so your institutional mentors, unless they're brand new to the institution or unless

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they're radical, if they're radical, they probably will not last long at your institution

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and tend to be your mentors.

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So the ones that are stable and conform to the culture of the institutions are the ones

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that tend to be your mentors.

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And so they are drinking institutional Kool-Aid.

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You should sort of recognize that.

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It's not bad.

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You are at a great institution.

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I bet.

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I'm at a great institution.

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And the institutional Kool-Aid we drink at my institution is pretty sweet.

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It's really good stuff.

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I mean, it's high quality Kool-Aid.

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I mean, it's Kool-Aid.

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It's not 100% juice.

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It is Kool-Aid.

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But it's really good stuff.

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And so I'm not saying it's bad Kool-Aid.

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I'm not saying that the culture at your institution is bad.

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I'm just saying that it is one perspective.

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And I've heard people say, when you've been to one major academic medical center, you've

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been to one major academic medical center.

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And yes, we're all practicing academic medicine.

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But the moment you cross the street into the next academic medical center, there's a different

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culture.

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And it's not good or bad.

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It's neutral.

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But you just want to recognize that.

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You want to recognize that because that means you're getting one perspective.

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It's the institutional perspective.

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This is the way we do it.

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And you know this.

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If you have moved from one program to another, say, from residency to fellowship, you're

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like, yeah, we did things differently at my other institution.

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It's the exact same thing.

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So everyone at your institution is drinking the same Kool-Aid.

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If you want to have diverse perspectives, you're going to need to leave your institutional

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Kool-Aid and move to the next institution and see what their Kool-Aid is like.

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Because you might like their flavor a little bit better.

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You might want to mix it in with the Kool-Aid at your institution.

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OK.

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Number two.

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Because everybody's drinking the same Kool-Aid, for anybody to suggest to you anything that's

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outside the norm of what is already done moves them to a level of discomfort.

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And most people do not want discomfort.

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And so most people are going to give you advice that fits within the institutional norms.

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OK.

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Sometimes unspoken institutional culture is that there are gender and racial disparities

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in salaries.

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And this is not a good thing.

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But sometimes it's baked into institutional culture.

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And so when you come as a gender, racial, or ethnic minority and you say, hey, I would

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like to increase my salary above this certain amount, institutional culture contrives to

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pull you within what is considered the norm, whether explicitly or implicitly.

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And so for anyone to look and suggest anything to you that is outside the norm of what is

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acceptable puts them at risk for ostracism within the institution.

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It puts them at risk to be labeled a radical.

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Clearly, I am not concerned about that.

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But many people are.

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But it's a certain measure of discomfort to suggest to you anything outside of the institution.

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For example, you've probably experienced a mentor who's extremely successful within your

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academic medical center who actually doesn't treat people well.

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This mentor is a revered member of the community.

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And for anybody to suggest that they are less than stellar is going against institutional

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culture that says that this person is widely respected and so amazing.

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And so any grad student who may have challenges in this person's lab, it's unlikely that they're

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going to be able to make significant changes because they're going against institutional

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culture.

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And so the reasons you want to be thinking about mentors outside your institution is

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that mentors outside your institution don't have a place of discomfort suggesting anything

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outside of the norm of your institutional culture because they don't know your institutional

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culture.

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And so they're not going to a place of discomfort just to save you.

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They're just telling you things that they don't even know goes against your institutional

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culture.

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So you want to make sure that you add to the team of people who want to keep institutional

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culture alive even when it's good or bad.

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You want to make sure that you add somebody external to give you a different perspective.

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That's number two.

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Number three is that mentors outside your institution have no investment in your institutional

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culture.

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They don't care about your institution.

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They're not like, oh, wait a minute.

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Let me not give you advice that they make the people at your institution feel bad.

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They have no idea.

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They don't.

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They're thinking broadly in terms of academia.

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They think their institutional culture is the default culture.

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And so they think from the perspective of their institutional culture.

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And that's where it's a platform from which they give you advice.

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They're not trying to make waves at your institution.

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They're just telling you things.

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And so they have no investment in upholding any norms at your institution.

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They're just going to tell you things like it is.

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And so when you are struggling and you're like, oh, I don't like the way this is going

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on, but my mentor is such a well-respected member of my institution, very easily an external

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mentor has no concerns about perspective, your mentor or others at your institution.

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They're just going to give you advice that's going to be helpful to you.

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And that's important.

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And then that brings me to number four.

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Mentors outside your institution, I invested only in the things that advance you.

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So they're not there to give you advice so that your institution can continue to be ranked

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one of the top institutions in the nation.

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It's not their problem.

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Their problem is you.

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They're only invested in your institution to the extent that you are connected with

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that institution.

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They're your mentors outside the institution and their job is you.

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They're like, you're the one I'm here to serve.

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So what do you need?

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And they give you advice consistent with what you need.

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It is about you.

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And I'm not saying that your mentors at your institution do not give you advice that helps

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you.

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There are excellent mentors who do that.

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But there is a conflict that exists inherently between what is acceptable in the institution

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and what you need.

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And for many of us who are young, the institutional cultures serve the people who have been there

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the longest, right?

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The senior people have the voting power.

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And so they've created a culture that serves and supports them.

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It doesn't always serve and support the younger people.

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Because your mentor is telling you things that benefit you, I bet.

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There are other people who have some thoughts about some institutional things that are not

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acceptable that are not accessible to you.

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And they can give you some ideas on how to navigate it because they're not really interested

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in maintaining the status quo.

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They're not interested in maintaining the status quo of maybe you not having access

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to biostatistical support.

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They're asking, why don't you have biostatistical support?

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Who can get you biostatistical support?

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And you know it because you roll your eyes when somebody outside your institution says,

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what do you mean you don't have this resource?

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You should go get it.

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Then you're like, you don't understand my institution.

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Yes, you want that.

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You want that.

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That brings me to number five.

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They're going to share ideas with you that stimulate your creativity.

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And they're going to share ideas with you that stimulate your creativity.

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But here's a challenge.

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Before they share ideas with you that stimulate your creativity, or at least before the ideas

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stimulate your creativity, they're first of all going to make you anxious and worried

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and afraid.

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For example, I had a conversation with someone yesterday.

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And she was talking about how, well, you know, at my institution, if I get extra money from

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a grant, but I'm already covered in another grant, well, they just keep the money.

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And my first thought was that, no, they don't.

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That money is there to serve you.

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How are you going to negotiate to make sure that that money serves you?

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Maybe it hires somebody to serve your needs.

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And it was a new thought to her.

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But the first thought she had was, is that allowed?

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So first of all, there's the panic of like, oh, my gosh, am I even allowed to be thinking

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about this?

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Is this treason?

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Is this treason?

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That's the first thought.

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And then the second thought is, hmm, that's an interesting idea.

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And then the third thought is, hmm, how can I make this true for me?

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So it stimulates creativity, but it first of all causes a little bit of anxiety because

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it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, we don't do things that way at my institution.

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Am I going to get into trouble?

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Is this going to be OK?

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And so they will share ideas that stimulate your thoughts and stimulate your creativity

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as to how do I solve this problem?

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If for example, you don't have access to biostatistical support and they're like, oh, no, no, no, no,

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the cancer center has people who are paid as part of their cancer center grant to support

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research development.

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You didn't know that.

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And now you're like, no, my mentors told me that I can't talk to the statistician.

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But now all of a sudden you're like, hmm, maybe I can't talk to the statistician.

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It changes your mind.

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The ideas that your external mentors share with you will change the way you think.

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And then number six is that external mentors challenge your assumptions.

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You assumed that because your mentor told you that you shouldn't talk to the statistician

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yet that you couldn't have a conversation with the statistician.

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You just assumed that.

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You were like, well, I guess I'm not ready to have a conversation with a statistician.

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And this external mentor is telling you, well, what makes you think you can't access a statistician

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by yourself?

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Don't you already know what questions you have to ask?

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And so sometimes they just really challenge your assumptions that they're a gateway, that

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they're gatekeepers.

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Like, this is the gatekeepers or the biostatistical resource.

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And they challenge those assumptions.

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Like, well, aren't you a faculty member?

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Oh, OK.

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And you should be able to access the resource directly.

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Have you asked?

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And then you're like, well, I haven't asked.

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I was just waiting for my mentor to tell me.

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They challenge your assumptions.

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And you need your assumptions challenged.

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Because the reality of a new faculty member, even if you've been around for a while, the

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reality when you come in is that you don't know what you don't know.

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You have no idea.

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You rely on people to tell you.

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And this is the value of institutional mentors is that their job is to tell you what you

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don't know.

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The challenge of institutional mentors, especially those who have been baked into the institution

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for decades, is that they no longer remember what is not known.

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It's like you in your clinical care.

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You have all these acronyms you use that are so, you know, they're just second nature to

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you.

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Who doesn't know that HTN is hypertension?

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Who doesn't know that?

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Well, the medical student who just started on the wards has no idea.

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But you don't even remember anymore.

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That's something that you didn't used to know.

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And you just use these acronyms without thinking.

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And somebody who's brand new is like, well, what is this?

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And they're embarrassed to ask you.

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And so if you don't know what you don't know, then you start to make assumptions.

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Or if you're only listening to one person, this main mentor who's just the only person

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you listen to, you're making some assumptions based off of what they're telling you, that

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they're telling you everything.

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But they may not even remember what they don't know, what you don't know.

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They don't remember what they haven't told you.

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You know, they're not close enough to it to remember that, oh, yeah, that did used to

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be a problem for me.

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Before I had three R01 grants, I did used to beg for biostatistical support.

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They don't remember that, you know?

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And so it is important for you to have external mentors who challenge your assumptions about

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what is true and challenge your assumptions about what's possible.

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OK.

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So I'm going to challenge your assumptions.

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The next thing is that they expand your networks.

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So you know, the people within your institution, they all know the same people, right?

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All the faculty members in your institution, they kind of have, you know, it's a known

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network.

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And it's not like it's not a vast network because it is.

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But by the time you have been hanging out with your mentor or your mentors for a while,

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you kind of get to start to have a sense of the people they collaborate with, right?

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You know their network.

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If you're going to expand beyond their networks, you're going to have to find somebody who's

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outside of their networks.

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And that typically is an external mentor.

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And so what you do when you engage an external mentor in your mentor networks is that you

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really expand your opportunities.

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You know, I happened to be at a conference while I'm recording this episode.

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And I had a mentoring session with a mentor who's outside my institution.

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I don't know that he's connected with anybody who's at my institution.

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And he helped me really think differently about the value of networking.

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He's like, you're too deeply focused in your research.

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Like this is not what's going to take you to the next level.

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What committees are you serving on?

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Do people know your name?

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Do they know the value of your work?

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And he gave me advice in a way that really helps to expand my networks that people at

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my institution have not given me and not that people at my institution, not that my mentor

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is don't care that that's don't know that that's true.

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It's just that it's just never come up in conversation.

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Why would I want anybody outside?

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Why would they want to recommend to me to expand my networks beyond the networks that

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they already have?

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They have great networks, right?

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The very suggestion that I might not have enough exposure may challenge their goodwill.

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And anyway, so just encouraging you to connect with external mentors because they expand

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your networks.

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All right, I talked about seven things.

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I talked about the fact that at your institution, everybody's drinking the same Kool-Aid.

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It's good Kool-Aid.

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It's tasty Kool-Aid.

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It may be premium quality, but still the same Kool-Aid nonetheless.

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And then number two, if your mentors are going to suggest anything outside the norm of your

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institution, it moves them into a place of discomfort.

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So they're not going to do that.

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Number three is that mentors outside your institution have no investment in upholding

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your institutional norms.

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They're not drinking your institutional Kool-Aid.

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They will tell you things that are not relevant to your institutional Kool-Aid culture.

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Number four is that mentors outside your institution are invested in only things that advance you.

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They're only interested in your institution to the extent to which it advances you.

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And for that reason, number five, they share ideas that stimulate your creativity.

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These ideas may first give you anxiety, but ultimately they're ideas that stimulate your

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creativity.

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Number six, they challenge your assumptions, things that you held to be true, that you

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didn't know didn't have to be true.

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They challenge them.

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They shake the foundation of the things you thought were true.

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And number seven, they expand your networks.

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Their networks become your networks because you've engaged them.

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So these are seven reasons why you should have mentors outside your institution.

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Okay, somebody else needs to hear this, especially somebody who is struggling right now in a

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mentor-mentee relationship.

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We don't talk enough about how many of these relationships don't work out and what people

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should do about them.

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And I've heard story after story after story of faculty members just quitting their research

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or just quitting that particular focus of their jobs just because things were not working.

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And so you know somebody else who needs to hear this podcast episode, and I invite you

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to forward it to just one person, not two, not three, not four, just one person.

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00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,040
Change the life of one person today by forwarding this episode.

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All right, it's been a pleasure talking with you today.

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And thank you for giving me your time.

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And I look forward to talking with you again the next time.

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Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:27,960
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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are a mentor.

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00:23:29,380 --> 00:23:35,480
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,240
Someone else needs to hear it.

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00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,280
So take a minute right now and share it.

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00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,740
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:59,640
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.