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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is an absolute pleasure to be talking with you today.

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Thank you for tuning in.

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Thank you for listening.

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I'm excited to bring you today's episode titled, How to Be a Good Mentor.

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The title of the episode is, How to Be a Good Mentor.

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The title of this episode comes from a recent conference that I attended.

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It's a workshop of like-minded individuals who want to advance diversity in clinical

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trials, and we had a session on mentoring, which is awesome.

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I'm really excited when conferences are dedicated to career development.

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She stepped up to the podium and she asked a question, how do you become a good mentee?

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And I remember when I heard that question, my heart sank and I had this weird pit in

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my stomach because I thought, I'm like, no, please, are you asking that question?

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And so I do want to share just to give you full disclosure that no matter what you're

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thinking, this episode is not going to turn out exactly as you thought, because I have

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some thoughts about that question that I'm going to break down.

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But before I start it, if I start the episode, before I start telling you how to be a good

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mentee, or at least my thoughts about it, I need to first share with you my history.

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It's just going to be short.

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It's not my life history, but it's going to be short.

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I grew up as a goody two shoes.

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I don't know if you have ever met people like me.

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I am the kid who would study the landscape, figure out what the adults wanted, and I would

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do it to a T. I was the one everybody called a good girl.

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I was just so good at it because, you know, adults were so easy to please.

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They would want a certain thing and I would just give it to them.

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And consistently, so in my culture, I'm Nigerian, the women, girls greet on their knees.

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And you know, we're kind of like, we don't, I think now in the 21st century, people don't

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really do that really much anymore.

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But there's like a kind of like an ode that we, let me say, like you genuflect in a sense,

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like you kind of like bob a little bit as like, oh, yes, this is how I greet.

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This is how I say hello.

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And so anyway, so now people culturally don't get on their two knees, for the most part.

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But you know, there is kind of like a symbol of like, okay, I may not be getting on my

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two knees, but I'm coming down a little bit just to say it's a sign of respect.

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So you know, I'm Nigerian, but I'm originally Yoruba.

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So it's very specific to the Yoruba culture.

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Okay, so, but adults would get so tickled when I would go down on both knees, which

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is like, oh my gosh, this girl is so respectful.

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Oh my goodness.

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And so the first time I tried it when I was a kid, and you know, the adult I did it for,

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gosh, so much.

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I was like, oh, is this it?

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This is what makes them so happy.

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So I was the kid who would get down on both knees to say good morning and they loved me.

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I mean, I just, I was, oh my gosh, people loved me.

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Anyway, I'm getting carried away by my goody two shoes-ness.

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But anyway, I think I say all that to say that at the end of the day, the adults were

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so tickled about me, but how did it move me forward?

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How did it move me forward in service to humanity?

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I developed a great people pleasing strategy.

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I would figure out what people wanted and I would do it.

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And I have to tell you that that's what I carried into my faculty career.

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I would figure out what the, you know, the senior people wanted and I would do it.

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And so that was me studying how to please people.

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And so I got very good at it.

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So when I am asked the question, how to be a good mentee, I will tell you that culturally

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and personally, I can do that.

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I'm very good at it.

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And now I'm going to talk to you about my ideas about how to be a good mentee.

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So I, I'm not talking here about culture.

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I want to focus on how to be a good mentee.

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But what I want to tell you is that if you are somebody who's going to come and make

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a difference and make an impact, you don't ask, how do I please you?

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You ask, how do I advance in the thing for which I came to do?

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Okay.

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I'm going to say that again in a different way.

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If you're going to be someone who's going to make an impact in the world, you're going

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to transform the lives of patients.

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You don't ask, what do I do to make everybody around me happy?

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Even if they're senior mentors who are doing excellently, you ask, what do I need to advance

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so that I can accomplish this?

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Now if you're in the academy just to get along, if you're in the academy just to have a good

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job, if you're in the academy just so you can check boxes, then please by all means

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study how to be a good mentee.

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This is not going to be the episode for you.

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And I have to apologize if my title misled you into this, you know, false sense of security

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that I was actually going to tell you that I value, you know, that question of how to

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be a good mentee.

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So please accept my apologies and it's okay if you want to drop off right now.

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But for everybody else who's intrigued, you know, there are many times in life that we

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just go through the motions.

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And I want to say that the academic career is not the right place for going through the

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motions of life.

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It's just not.

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I want to say that it cost a minimum of 10 years, and that's not counting all the time

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you put in trying to get into medical school.

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It cost most of us a minimum of 10 years to go through medical school residency fellowship,

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for those of you who went through fellowship.

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And then some more.

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I have one of my classmates who probably spent like four or five years in fellowship.

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And so there's been a lot of investment in this career to become a clinician and a clinician

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scientist.

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And if at the end of that journey, what you want to do is just make people around you

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happy, I want to say that that's probably not the greatest of goals.

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And I will also say it actually is the hardest goal.

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You will never succeed.

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Okay.

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As a clinician, you have many, many people, many bosses, right?

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You have the people in clinic who need your close charts, see as many patients as possible.

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Their priorities for you are different from your mentors who want you to succeed in research,

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who wants you to move their research program forward for some mentors who are very focused

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on still kind of like advancing their careers really early on.

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Their focus is on you doing the work.

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And then you have the education component, right?

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Their focus, the CME or the GME group, their focus is on getting you to help train as many

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trainees as possible.

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And they would love you to just give lectures every day, day in and day out.

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Well, just put those three things together, the research, the education and the clinical,

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and they're already in conflict with one another.

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You cannot please people.

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If you're going to be a good clinician, a good researcher and a good educator, you're

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going to have a lot of conflict in life.

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And I know this is the foundation of all academic medical schools that everybody has to be great

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at all things.

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And it's a fallacy, right?

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You are great at one thing and then other things follow.

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They can be a close second and third, but you can't be great at so many things at the

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same time.

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Okay.

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I hope I'm not going off.

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I'm sorry, I'm a tangent.

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But clearly you can tell I feel a little bit strongly about this particular question.

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Okay.

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I want to talk to you about five things.

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If you're asking the question how to be a good mentee, I want to give you five things

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to think about, okay?

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I'm not going to answer the question about how to be a good mentee because I'm not sure

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it's useful, but I am going to give you five things to think about.

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Thing number one is that your job, if you're going to be a clinician scientist leading

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a research program that impacts patients, your job is not to be a good mentee.

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Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity.

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Okay.

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I want to say that again.

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If you are a clinician who is transitioning to research or you're already a clinician

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scientist, you're owning your place as a clinician scientist, even if you have not done this

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before and you need someone to show you the way, your job is not to be good.

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It's not to be a good girl.

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It's not to be a good boy.

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It's not to accept anybody patting you on the head and saying, oh my gosh, you're so

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good.

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Even though it feels so good.

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It feels so good when they do that, but that's not your job.

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Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity because you know and I know we've

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both been in the clinic.

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We've both been in the hospital and you know that there is so much further that we can

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go in healthcare.

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Yes, we've made many breakthroughs.

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Oh my goodness.

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Imagine life today without penicillin or antibiotics.

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Oh my goodness.

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Imagine life today with our cardiac catheterizations.

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Oh my goodness.

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Imagine life today without transplant surgery.

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We have made incredible advances in healthcare, but we know we are not done yet.

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I'm at a conference this week that talks about how do we close to the disparities in access

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to clinical trials.

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There's so much to be done.

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And so if you are going to move forward work that serves humanity, you don't ask the question,

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how am I going to be a good person?

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How am I going to be a good mentee?

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How am I going to be a good mentee to my mentor?

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You ask the question, how do I advance this career that's going to transform the way we

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do healthcare?

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That's the question you want to answer.

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And if that's not the question you want to answer, then okay.

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It's okay.

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I'm speaking to a very specific audience today.

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I'm speaking to people who came to make a transformation.

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And so your job is not to be a good mentee.

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And if you are asking the question, how do I become a good mentee?

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You're asking the wrong question.

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Because becoming a good mentee can mean many things to different mentors.

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But does becoming a good mentee serve your purpose of advancing your career, making the

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kind of impact that changes humanity?

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And I think the answer is no.

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Okay.

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All right.

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That's my first thought.

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My second thought is that your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do.

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So it's an interesting perspective.

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I sat through the mentorship program and so many people at the end were like, oh my gosh,

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I was so good.

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And it was good.

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I'm not denigrating it, please.

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I have a different lens, clearly, because someone who has struggled kind of in the area

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of mentoring.

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I think that people feel like mentors are these great people who have the answers, the

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key to all of life.

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You know, like, you know, when you're looking for the elixir of life or the holy grail,

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like, okay, the mentor has the keys, the keys to the kingdoms.

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And if I just do well, if I just get to the place where at the end they can pat me on

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the head and say, hey, you've done great there and give me these keys that my career is going

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to be so much better.

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And I just want to say that your mentor is not God, could never be.

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And so don't ask mentors to be superhuman.

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Don't ask them to be gods.

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Mentors are just people.

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They're people who've gotten insight and knowledge that has really helped them advance their

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career and they do have insight and knowledge that will help you to advance your career,

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but they cannot give you, they cannot own your career for you.

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They cannot tell you where you're going, you have to decide where you're going.

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Because where you're going is the sum of all the experiences you've had, the places you've

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been, the things that matter to you.

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You know, one of the panelists at this conference was asked, why do you do health disparities

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work?

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And she was like, what kind of question is that?

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My whole life.

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My whole life has the lens of disparities.

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It's the only thing I can see.

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So her experience is so different from someone who grew up in an area that was not diverse

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at all and they've never really understood why there are gaps in how people are treated.

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But her lens has been a lens of disparity since she was born.

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And that's what she said.

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She said, I was born this way.

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And so how can she have a career that's going to look the exact same as a mentor who is

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absolutely well published, probably has a Nobel Prize or two, but has never had that

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same lens?

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And so if she goes and she goes to her mentor and says, my job is to make you happy, guess

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what she's going to do?

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She's not going to be able to serve her desperate need to move forward research, science that

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advances that closes the disparity gap.

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And so your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do.

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Your mentor actually serves as a platform for you to realize and achieve your career

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dreams.

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And so I want to say that if you are having conversations with mentors about your future,

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your job is not to say what projects do you have to work on so that I can work on those

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projects.

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Your work is to first of all, clarify for them where you're going.

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Your job is to first of all, clarify for them where you're going so that they can tell you

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what tools they have within their program that serves your need.

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You are not there to serve your mentor.

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Your mentor is there to serve you.

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And if we flip it around, we think about the whole parenting thing.

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So either you have been a kid or you have kids, either way you've experienced parenting

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to some extent, either on the reverse side or on the side of being a parent.

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You recognize that kids are not there to make their parents happy.

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They're not there to serve the needs of their parents.

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Parents are there to serve the needs of their children.

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And then you consider that when it comes to mentoring, your mentors are there to serve

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the needs of your career.

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It is not the other way around.

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They are the platform upon which you launch your career.

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And to be honest, as they are the platform for you to be launching, for you to launch

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your career, it is such a rewarding thing for mentors.

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It absolutely is.

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And any mentor who says it is burdensome to be a mentor is a mentor who does not care

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about that mentee to the same extent as they care about other mentees.

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And it's just the way it is.

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It's hard to care about other people's kids in the same way as you care about yours.

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And the difference between your kids and other people's kids is just that you own them, right?

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You may not have birthed them biologically, but you're like, I own these kids.

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It's my own.

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That's all you have.

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That's the minimum, minimum qualification to be a parent.

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It's like, I own this kid, right?

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Whether you adopted the kid in whatever way the kid came to you, you say, I own this kid,

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right?

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But the kids you don't own, you don't have to make an investment.

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You can be like, oh, such a burden to care for this kid, right?

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So if you're a mentee and your mentor is like, this is so hard.

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I'm just too hard to care for you.

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I just need you to recognize that that's a red flag.

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And you should find mentors that actually want you to succeed and do not think it's

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a burden to serve your needs.

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OK, I'm going to come down from that.

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I feel very strongly about this.

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Can you tell?

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OK.

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Number three is that until you understand your destination for your career, your interaction

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with mentors will take you to the wrong destination every time without fail.

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I'm going to say that again.

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Until you understand your destination, your interaction with mentors will take you to

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the wrong destination every time.

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It may be a beautiful destination.

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You may be on an Alaskan cruise.

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You may be in Hawaii.

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Maybe you're even on the Galapagos Islands.

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But if it's not your destination, it is not your destination.

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If somebody who is interested in health disparities research is partnered with a mentor who doesn't,

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want to have any disparities focus in their research, you are going to have great publications.

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You're going to even have a grant or two.

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You're going to have plenary sessions at major meetings.

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And you're going to be miserable because you didn't come to serve a population that doesn't

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have health disparities.

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You didn't come to have a research program that doesn't help close the gap because of

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the lens through which you look at the world, because of the lens through which you look

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at the world.

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And so you'll get to some incredible destination.

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And I see people all the time.

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They're like, oh my gosh, I'm so successful.

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I have all this grant funding and they are so miserable because they are so far from

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where they really want to be.

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And that's why you don't start with a mentor on what they have.

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You start with you and where you're going.

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And you're going to find who allows you, who you allow to get on your boat to help guide

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you to your destination.

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Okay.

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Number four is that your job is to take the time to understand your destination.

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And I won't tell you that this will be the hardest thing you will ever do.

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And the reality of it is that it is a longitudinal journey.

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It takes time to figure out where you're going.

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It absolutely takes time.

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And your job is to figure it out.

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And I will tell you that coaching is the strategy that has really helped me and has helped so

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many people.

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And I would say that every clinician and every clinician who's making the transition to lead

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a research program really needs to have a mentor.

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I really feel that strongly about it.

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Every great player has a coach.

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You may have raw talent.

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You may have learned the game of, you know, since you were a child.

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But no matter what, everybody who's ever achieved greatness in sports, greatness in a game,

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greatness in tennis or in soccer or in football had a coach.

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And I don't know how anybody feels like they're going to be able to really achieve their game

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without someone to help them kind of like maximize their talent.

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Yeah, I feel personally about this.

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And clearly I'm a coach, right?

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But I also experience coaching like weekly.

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Actually, honestly, if I put it all together, it's probably daily coaching.

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And I'm not even kidding.

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I know.

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I know you're like, no way.

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I have a peer coaching group.

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I have a peer mentor that we connect with.

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I connect with regularly.

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I have an executive coach that I work with.

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I even now have a health coach.

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I am that big on coaching.

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Anyway, so if you're looking for a coach, you should reach out to me so we can talk.

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But anyway, I don't want to digress, but I want to tell you how hard it is to figure

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out where you're going.

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And it's going to take you some time.

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And you know, there's some of us who know from the beginning like, oh, no, no, no, no.

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I came to Madison to solve the problem of health disparities.

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You are so clear.

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I just am so excited for you.

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Kudos to you.

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But for people like me, remember my people pleasing background.

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It's very hard for us to step away from the people pleasing to say, what do I really want?

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And that is one of the most important things that you will do on this journey to becoming

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a clinician scientist.

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So please pause.

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Stop going around looking for mentors until you're very clear where you want to go.

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Because only when you're clear about where you want to go, can you now be ready to ask

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someone to show you how to get there.

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OK.

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The fifth thing I want to tell you is that once you've figured it out, and you don't

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have to wait until you figure it out, once you've figured out, well, you don't have to

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wait until you figured out the whole piece, right?

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As long as you have a couple of things that you feel certain about, then you can go looking.

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But when you go looking for a mentor, you're not now saying, well, which mentor is successful?

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Take me to your success destination.

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Now you're going to say, what is it with this mentor that serves my purpose?

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What is it that this mentor has that will help me get there?

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And it may be that you don't know, because sometimes some of us make decisions about

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mentors just based on people we like, or people who look like us that we resonate with, somebody

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who smiles at us.

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You're like, well, none of the attendings have smiled at me, but this attendee actually

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smiles like he cares about me, sure.

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Why don't I connect with them?

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So yeah, many of us start that mentoring journey with just somebody who would give us the time

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of day.

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And it's OK.

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We find mentors in different ways.

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It's like love.

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You just never know where that next connection will come from.

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It's the chemistry.

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What can we say?

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And so for some of us, there's the chemistry that leads us to the mentor.

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And then for the rest of us, sometimes there's a formal program, like, OK, I'm connecting

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you to this person.

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But whatever way you get to your mentor, the first conversation you should start with is

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not what projects are you doing that I can jump on, but to really start with what you

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want to do.

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And that is one of the most important conversations you have.

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And what you want to get out of your mentoring program.

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I hear people talk about establishing mentoring contracts.

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And it's a good idea.

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I do laugh because if contracts were the answer to all things, then nobody would ever be angry

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enough to sue anybody in court, right?

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Because contracts can be broken.

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And at the end of the day, humans have to make the decision to commit.

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And contracts don't necessarily enforce that commitment.

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I mean, it can force people to do things they don't want to do, but it can't force them

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to do it well.

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Anyway, so but even the idea of the contract, I think, is reasonable in thinking about,

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like, what do you want to get out of this?

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And that is, oh my goodness, it's the most important question a mentor can ever ask you.

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What do you want?

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And I want you to be wary of any mentor that doesn't ask you that question.

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I really do.

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And in reality, and this is my experience now as a mentor, is that many clinicians just

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don't know what they want.

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And it does break my heart.

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Because it's like, oh, you don't know what you want.

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But it's not a thing of judgment.

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It's just a thing of, like, well, you spent 10 years of your life, at least, not knowing

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00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:08,980
what you want, just doing what you're told or doing what is necessary.

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And now to come to a place where you get to choose, it's very hard for many of us.

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It was hard for me, and so I don't judge it.

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And I do think that your journey and your journey of mentorship is to clarify.

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Because sometimes when mentees don't show up, when they don't deliver, it's not because

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they're not reliable.

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It's because they don't resonate with the work.

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And I think it's important to recognize that and to set people free.

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I will tell you, I'm one of those mentors.

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I don't force you to do what you don't want to do, because this is not about you just

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moving work forward.

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It really is about you coming into your destiny.

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It's about you coming into your own.

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It's about you having a career that really feels tangible, like really feels satisfying

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to you, fulfilling.

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Because I want to see clinician scientists thrive.

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I do.

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And so you want to identify what part of your mentor serves your purpose.

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All right.

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Those are five things I shared with you.

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So yes, it was a bait and switch.

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00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,480
I told you I would answer the question of how to be a good mentee, and then I turned

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around and gave you five things to think about, about why you should not be asking that question.

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And the first thing is that your job is not to be a good mentee.

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Your job is to advance your career in service of humanity.

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00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,800
Number two, your mentor does not exist to tell you what to do.

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They are the platform to launch your career.

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00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,160
Number three, until you understand your destination, your interaction with mentors will take you

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to the wrong destination, even if it's a beautiful one.

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Number four, your job is to take time to uncover your direction, to uncover your destination,

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to uncover where you're going.

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Number five, then you can meet with a mentor to identify what part of them you want to

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take with you.

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What part of them will serve your journey.

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00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,440
All right, controversial topic.

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You probably have some ideas about it.

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00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:12,200
Please share them with me.

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00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,240
You can do it in three ways.

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00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,240
Number one, you can send me a DM through social media.

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00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:19,960
I am on Instagram.

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00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,400
I'm on Facebook and on LinkedIn.

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00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:29,440
You can send me a podcast voicemail through our podcast website, clinicianresearcherpodcast.com.

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00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,520
And number three, you can send me an email, info at coagcoach.com.

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Let me know what you think.

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00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,640
I'd love to share your thoughts in a future episode.

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00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,040
It has been a pleasure talking with you.

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00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,480
Now, if you have ideas for episodes that I should record, please share them with me.

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00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,200
I'd be happy to record an episode especially for you.

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00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,560
All right, it's been a pleasure talking with you today.

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Thanks for taking time to listen.

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00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:05,640
Enjoy your day.

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00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:11,000
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:16,280
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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have a mentor.

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If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,640
Someone else needs to hear it.

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00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,680
So take a minute right now and share it.

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00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:35,160
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:56,200
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.