1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.

7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:59,680
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

12
00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,240
Well, hello, everybody.

13
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,300
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

14
00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:12,200
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is a pleasure to be talking with you today.

15
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:18,600
So I have shared my story before, and I'm not sure if you've heard it, but I want to

16
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,720
share it again, just in case you haven't heard it.

17
00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,440
But I always wanted to lead research.

18
00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,120
I did.

19
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:36,120
And even going through medical school, I wanted to be in an academic medical center, and leading

20
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,620
research was kind of just a natural part of doing that.

21
00:01:40,620 --> 00:01:46,200
And what I didn't have was access to the research training that got me there.

22
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:53,080
What I was instead doing was doing a clinical program, but I wanted to be a clinical researcher,

23
00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,320
a clinician scientist.

24
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,680
And so the clinical piece was important.

25
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:04,840
What I didn't recognize was that nowhere in the clinical training was research training.

26
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,240
Well, I went through medical school, and I had the opportunity to do research.

27
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:11,240
It was great.

28
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,320
I actually led a program of research.

29
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,360
It was a very small program, but I still led it.

30
00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:22,880
I did a prospective study to evaluate a new, new-at-the-time technology called cone beam

31
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,400
CT in patients with breast cancer.

32
00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,800
And so it was looking at accelerated partial breast irradiation, which was also a new technology

33
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,880
in radiation oncology at the time.

34
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:42,400
And it was an important paper, and that paper actually had been cited over 100 times.

35
00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,160
So it was an important study, my first prospective study.

36
00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:51,760
And if I ever had the bug as far as being bitten by the bug of research, maybe that

37
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:52,760
was it.

38
00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:59,240
It was awesome to develop my own protocol to recruit providers who would be part of

39
00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:00,240
that.

40
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,480
And by providers, it was the radiation therapists who were administering the radiation.

41
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:10,320
And then to recruit patients to the effort as well, it was such an amazing opportunity.

42
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,920
And I think one of the things it did for me was it pulled together my love for organizing

43
00:03:14,920 --> 00:03:17,920
and collaboration and synergy.

44
00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:20,760
And I got to do that when I was a medical student.

45
00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:27,440
And that was my first, first journey to research, my first journey to leading a research program.

46
00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,760
While I made it through medical school, residency, as you probably experienced, was super busy.

47
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:38,320
And yes, there was a little bit of time in there for research, but to be honest, there

48
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,280
was mostly time for being a great clinician.

49
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,280
And then I went to fellowship.

50
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:52,400
And fellowship is supposed to be the time when you are able to put aside all the clinical

51
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,160
stuff and really, really focus in on a research question and answer it, especially in a second

52
00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:58,160
and third year.

53
00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,000
Well, I didn't have that opportunity.

54
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,880
And our training program in particular was very big on making sure we had all the clinical

55
00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:08,080
training that we needed.

56
00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,000
And so we had three half days of clinic during the week.

57
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:16,920
And I have to tell you that three half days of clinic does not leave much room to grow

58
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:17,920
a research program.

59
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,800
And when I went around to different mentors, and especially when I went around to, well,

60
00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:28,520
potential mentors, especially the PhD mentors, they would say, oh, yeah, so when are you

61
00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:29,520
going to be in the lab?

62
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,480
And I would say, well, I have three half days of clinic.

63
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:37,640
And that would kill our potential mentor mentee experience.

64
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,040
He's like, nope, you're not going to be here.

65
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,400
There is no point.

66
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:42,400
And I didn't get it at the time.

67
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:43,400
I was so frustrated.

68
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,560
I remember a time I broke down and started crying.

69
00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,000
And I was like, I wish I had never come to this fellowship program.

70
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,800
I was so, so, so disappointed.

71
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,960
Anyway, I made the most of my fellowship program.

72
00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,800
I ended up getting a master's in clinical investigation, which turned out to be the

73
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,640
right thing to do.

74
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:04,000
And I did get some manuscripts written.

75
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,360
And I also did apply for funding.

76
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:11,360
And at the time, I got a clinical research training investigator award, CRTI.

77
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,480
I'm sure the I is not for investigator.

78
00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:14,480
I don't know.

79
00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:17,880
I come to these podcast episodes and I forget, like, key things.

80
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,600
But anyway, it was the ASH CRTI.

81
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,560
And I got that.

82
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:23,560
OK.

83
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:25,120
So that's all I had.

84
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,440
Going to my faculty position.

85
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,360
And then I finally got to my faculty position.

86
00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,480
And only to find out that, you know what?

87
00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,560
This research career you want to do, you're not actually qualified to do it.

88
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,120
And I'm like, what?

89
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,120
I'm not qualified?

90
00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,880
They're like, yeah, we can't really make a case for you because, well, you don't have

91
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,800
much publication record to your name.

92
00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,480
You don't have any grant funding.

93
00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,000
So how are we going to make this case?

94
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,000
I mean, they didn't say that at the time.

95
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,560
I now can say that in retrospect because I understand what that means.

96
00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,240
I understand that when a faculty member comes looking for a job, people are asking, well,

97
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,360
what skills do they already have?

98
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,320
Not what future skills do we think they'll acquire, but what do we know they can do right

99
00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,200
now in terms of supporting the institution, right?

100
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,920
Every institution runs based on funding.

101
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,120
And as a clinician, you are able to support your institution because you bring in clinical

102
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:20,120
revenue.

103
00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:26,200
And when you say, I want to actually work towards bringing in research revenue, then

104
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,560
people start to look at your qualifications.

105
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,200
And they're like, hmm, no manuscripts published.

106
00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,920
Hmm, no grants ever acquired.

107
00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:42,320
Hmm, yeah, no.

108
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:43,320
So that was me.

109
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:51,480
So I started my career as a faculty member doing 100% clinical.

110
00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,120
And they would tell me that it was 80% clinical, but I was seeing patients five days a week.

111
00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,640
So to be honest, I was spending all my time doing patient care.

112
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,000
And it wasn't just my eight to five from Monday to Friday.

113
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,200
It was my eight to five on Saturday and Sunday too.

114
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,200
Oh, and the night times.

115
00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,000
Oh, yes, middle of the night too.

116
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,360
Because at the time I had a young baby.

117
00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,920
Wow, it was challenging.

118
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:23,280
But they told me that, you know, you take this clinical position, you do all this clinical

119
00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:28,240
work and we will support you the moment you start getting research manuscripts out the

120
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:29,240
door.

121
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,280
The moment you get funding, you'll get the support you need.

122
00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:38,760
And what I didn't realize is that that transformation does not happen.

123
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:44,320
You do not become a research leader by doing clinical care.

124
00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:45,520
You don't.

125
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:51,680
Clinical care can give you ideas to lead a research program, but clinical care and

126
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:57,840
the whole infrastructure of clinical care is not the same infrastructure that leads

127
00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,160
you to leading a research program.

128
00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,600
Okay, I didn't know this.

129
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,040
And so when I signed on, I was clearly naive.

130
00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:14,480
And I think that while my case always felt unique at the time, I realized that more and

131
00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:20,120
more clinicians are here in this boat where you want to lead a research program, but you're

132
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,400
coming just with years and years of clinical training.

133
00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,720
No one really believes that you can.

134
00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,680
And honestly, no one really supports you to do it.

135
00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:29,680
So what do you do?

136
00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,800
How do you make that transition?

137
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,040
How do you, while being a full-time clinician, make the transition to leading a research

138
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:38,040
program?

139
00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,320
Well, that's the answer that I came to share with you today.

140
00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,560
Or actually, I didn't come to share answers with you as much as that I came to ask you

141
00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:47,560
questions.

142
00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:54,640
I'm going to talk to you today about five questions that you should ask on your journey

143
00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,320
to becoming a clinician scientist.

144
00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:57,680
Like, do you want to do this?

145
00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:01,520
And these are the five questions you should ask and answer.

146
00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:07,600
So you're going to answer the questions to determine whether you should take this step

147
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:13,200
or not, whether you should do the impossible and make the transition from clinician to

148
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,000
clinician scientists.

149
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:21,120
The first question is to ask yourself, what do I care about?

150
00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,480
What do I care about?

151
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:31,880
And this may be the most important question that you need to answer before you move forward.

152
00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:40,320
It's an important question because in our clinical training, actually, I can say our

153
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,140
because I know this was your clinical training too.

154
00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:47,200
You did what you have to do, whether you liked it or not.

155
00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,400
It was just part of your training.

156
00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,400
You went to medical school and they told you you had six major rotations you needed to

157
00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,000
finish by the end of the year, right?

158
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,840
By the end of your clinical year.

159
00:09:57,840 --> 00:09:59,520
For many of you, that was your third year.

160
00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,960
For me, that was my second year.

161
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,880
And it's pediatrics, it's surgery, it's internal medicine, it's psychiatry, it's obstetrics

162
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:08,280
and gynecology.

163
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,900
These are the required rotations.

164
00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:14,520
And then maybe you have one or two electives in there, things you choose.

165
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,240
For the most part, there's a very, very, very specific core curriculum that you need to

166
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,880
go through as a medical student.

167
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:28,220
And whether you love surgery or not, you wake up before AM, you do the surgery things, right?

168
00:10:28,220 --> 00:10:32,080
You don't say I care about surgery or I don't care, I'm not going to do this part of the

169
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:33,080
curriculum.

170
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:34,080
You just suck it up.

171
00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,760
You show up and you be the best surgeon that you can be.

172
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,080
And that is the challenge of our training.

173
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:44,240
I mean, it was important and I'm glad we did it.

174
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,520
And we are better physicians for all the things we did that we hated to do.

175
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,760
But it's just not the way we live life.

176
00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:56,440
It's the training, but it's not the way life is lived.

177
00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,880
All the stuff you had to do is no longer relevant when you start to move into someone who's

178
00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,000
shaping your own career into a faculty position.

179
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,880
Now you stop doing things just because you're obligated to.

180
00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,480
To be honest, there are not many things you're obligated to do anymore.

181
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,320
But you start doing things because you care.

182
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,320
Like, no, this is what I care about.

183
00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,000
The electives, this is my life now.

184
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,240
I do elective.

185
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:22,240
Elective time.

186
00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,240
This is your elective time.

187
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:27,800
All the elective time you didn't do in your training, this is your elective time.

188
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,120
So what do you care about?

189
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,880
And this is a hard question because you've been so used to doing things you have to do.

190
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,080
And because you've done that for maybe 10 years of your life at least, now you're like,

191
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,160
well, this is all my life.

192
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:41,640
I only do things I have to do.

193
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,480
And the reality is you don't have to do things you don't care about.

194
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,040
What you should do, what you need to do.

195
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,180
I mean, in reality, you live in a community that cares about certain things.

196
00:11:51,180 --> 00:11:56,280
You should know what things are required in your institution for forward motion.

197
00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,920
You should align the things you care about with those things.

198
00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,280
And you can always make it work.

199
00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,480
For example, if scholarship is important in your institution, well, do scholarship on

200
00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,120
what you care about.

201
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:15,000
If international renown or being known nationally is important in your institution, well, be

202
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:16,760
known nationally for things you care about.

203
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:18,680
Do you see what I'm saying?

204
00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:24,560
So yeah, there are things you have to do, but you make your own curriculum and you do

205
00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:29,400
the things you care about and make them count for the things you have to do.

206
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,880
But that's the first question you have to answer.

207
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,120
What do I care about?

208
00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,440
Because it is time to stop doing the things you hate.

209
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:42,440
Because you cannot sustain a 30, 40 year career doing things you hate.

210
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,800
You can do it for a six week rotation.

211
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,240
You can do it for a 12 week rotation.

212
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,360
You can even suck it up and do it for a year.

213
00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:55,320
You cannot spend your entire career doing things you hate.

214
00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,440
So what do you care about?

215
00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,720
Answer the question.

216
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,120
Number two is commitment.

217
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:05,800
Am I committed to research leadership?

218
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,280
This is a really important question.

219
00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,280
Am I committed?

220
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:15,240
You know, research leadership is kind of like a marriage relationship or maybe people would

221
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,400
say a strong committed like time relationship.

222
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:19,760
It really is.

223
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:23,920
It's like, look, I mean, it's great that you love me and all, but are you committed to

224
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,960
me like, you know, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse and sickness and in

225
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:29,960
health rate?

226
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,760
Are you committed?

227
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,520
The funding comes through, it doesn't come through.

228
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,560
Are you committed?

229
00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:37,560
People support you.

230
00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:39,000
They don't support you.

231
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,520
Are you committed?

232
00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,080
The mentor shows up, the mentor doesn't show up.

233
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:44,080
Are you committed?

234
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,640
And that's an important question.

235
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,600
Sometimes I hear people saying, well, I just want to try and see if I like it.

236
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:57,160
It's like, yeah, no.

237
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:03,400
Sometimes this journey is hard and there are real roadblocks along the way and there are

238
00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:07,800
real people who don't want you to win for whatever reason.

239
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,640
And so it's not the kind of thing for the faint of heart, but it is the kind of thing

240
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:18,680
that people who are committed can see it through because you're like, yeah, I'm not here for

241
00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:19,960
the flowers and the roses.

242
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,600
I mean, I love those, but you know, I can get through because I'm committed to this

243
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,140
journey.

244
00:14:26,140 --> 00:14:27,700
So are you committed?

245
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:33,760
Because research leadership is a commitment and you only start the journey if you're committed

246
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,760
to seeing it through.

247
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,880
And I think this is so important because everybody doesn't have to lead a research program.

248
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,560
You don't have to lead a research program.

249
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,840
You can participate in research.

250
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,440
You can work with a group of other investigators and just contribute as needed.

251
00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:51,440
You can do that.

252
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:56,880
But if you say I'm leading a research program, it is a commitment because what you're doing

253
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:02,480
is you're building an infrastructure where people come and they contribute to a program

254
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:08,240
of research that you've conceived, that you are building, that you are funding, you are

255
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,400
leading, and therefore you're making a commitment.

256
00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,280
And answer the question, am I committed to research leadership?

257
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,820
And if the answer is no, then don't do it.

258
00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:20,820
You don't have to.

259
00:15:20,820 --> 00:15:24,160
There are other ways to succeed.

260
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,000
But if you are committed, then you're ready.

261
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,680
You're ready for the journey.

262
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:37,260
Number three, I'm calling classified information, is that there is information you don't have

263
00:15:37,260 --> 00:15:39,240
access to.

264
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,800
And I know this because you're a clinician and your clinical training was about being

265
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:44,880
a great clinician.

266
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,040
It was not about being a great researcher.

267
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,800
I always talk about the fact that PhD scientists actually do research training.

268
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,040
Research training is about getting a PhD.

269
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,320
It's just part of their training, right?

270
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:04,040
And there is a certain set of tools for success as a research scientist.

271
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,080
It's a very clear set of tools.

272
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,760
It's not even really a secret.

273
00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:14,460
It kind of sort of is to MDs because here you are in clinical land and you're feeling

274
00:16:14,460 --> 00:16:20,440
like this is a ripe field for research and it kind of sort of is because clinical care

275
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,040
is the foundation for the work we do as researchers.

276
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,560
But let's just say your clinical training doesn't really give you these research skills,

277
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:29,560
right?

278
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,560
And there are many of them.

279
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:31,560
I've talked about them in prior episodes.

280
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:37,120
But you don't have access to the information you need to succeed as a researcher until

281
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,040
you've gone to where there are researchers who are succeeding and found out what they

282
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,200
do.

283
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,760
And by the classified information, what I'm saying is one of the things they do in secret

284
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,160
where nobody can see them, that fuels their success.

285
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:57,800
How much time are they actually spending writing every day?

286
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,960
How many times are they submitting grants?

287
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,480
What grants are they submitting?

288
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,040
What research skills do they have?

289
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,640
What kinds of commitments are they making to their writing?

290
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,080
You know, I will tell you a couple of weeks ago, a group of collaborators and I sat down

291
00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,040
and we paid a boatload of money.

292
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,600
I call it a boatload because it was an hour and a half.

293
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,840
And actually, I'll just tell you, it was an hour and a half and it was $2,500.

294
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:30,600
We sat down with an expert writer to go through our writing.

295
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,840
And I will tell you that everybody doesn't do that.

296
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,080
And I'm not necessarily here to say you should go do that.

297
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,800
But I'm telling you that there is a certain kind of commitment that people are making

298
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,280
to become good at what they do.

299
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,000
It is not an open thing.

300
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,000
It is a secret, right?

301
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,320
Secret because it's hidden from you.

302
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,880
That's why it's classified information.

303
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,040
But what classified information do you need access to?

304
00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,240
What is needed to succeed in research?

305
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,280
What are people doing who succeed?

306
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,980
It's not common knowledge.

307
00:18:03,980 --> 00:18:07,520
But there is a clear set of tools for research success.

308
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:14,160
And the way you find out is to ask research scientists what these tools are.

309
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:20,000
So answer the question, what classified information do I need access to?

310
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:24,920
Question number four is creating structures.

311
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,320
What structures do you need to create to guarantee your success?

312
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,520
Ask that again.

313
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:37,880
What structures do you need to create to guarantee your success?

314
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,180
And the reason this happens, this is an important question, is because success does not happen

315
00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:45,740
in a vacuum.

316
00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:49,480
Success does not happen because you kind of woke up and you got lucky and you're like,

317
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,480
oh, look at you, you got successful.

318
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,680
Yay, yay, yay.

319
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,640
It was like when people told me when I started, they were like, yeah, well, go be a full-time

320
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:04,040
clinician, and whenever you can make the manuscripts happen and the grants get funded,

321
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:05,840
then of course we'll support you.

322
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,160
Like, it's not the kind of thing where you roll over in bed one day and you're like,

323
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:15,540
oh my gosh, I made it happen, everybody, I'm so lucky.

324
00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:19,760
You create the structure that is necessary to guarantee your success.

325
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,360
So what structures do you need to create?

326
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,020
What structures are you missing?

327
00:19:24,020 --> 00:19:25,160
You now know, right?

328
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:29,440
Because if you answer the information about the classified information thing, you go create

329
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,160
a structure, right?

330
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,640
What's the structure you have, number one, for consistent writing?

331
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,880
I've talked about the skills that you need to build as a research scientist.

332
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,580
What structure do you have for consistent writing?

333
00:19:43,580 --> 00:19:45,840
What structures do you have to improve your writing?

334
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,640
Yeah, your writing's good.

335
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:53,680
And what structures do you have in place to take it to the next level?

336
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,440
What structures do you have in place for accountability?

337
00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,080
Because no one's going to come knocking at your door saying, oh my gosh, did you submit

338
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,080
that grant?

339
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,800
Yeah, most of the time they don't do that.

340
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,400
But they'll come knocking at your door if you don't show up to clinic.

341
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,520
So what structures do you need to create for accountability?

342
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:17,940
What structures do you need to create to get access to information you need so your mentor

343
00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:21,160
doesn't show up to your mentoring meetings or your mentor doesn't give you information

344
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:22,560
that you feel like you need?

345
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:27,360
Who else can you go to to get the information you need?

346
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:34,560
What structures do you need to create that guarantee your success?

347
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,080
That's the next question to answer.

348
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,360
Question number five is your clinical expertise.

349
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,960
If you're going to be a clinician that's going to succeed as a scientist, then you've

350
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,460
got to make sure that your clinical expertise and your research overlap.

351
00:20:47,460 --> 00:20:49,000
They just have to.

352
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,440
Sometimes I see people say, well, my mentor is a breast cancer radiologist.

353
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,040
I guess that's what I do now.

354
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,360
And no, it's not what you do.

355
00:20:58,360 --> 00:20:59,760
Because remember, we started with care.

356
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,040
What do you care about?

357
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,480
If you don't care about it, please do not.

358
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,480
Oh my goodness.

359
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:05,480
Oh my gosh.

360
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,240
I've got to stop because this is about to get in a soap box now.

361
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:16,120
Many other people who build their careers around mentors' lives.

362
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:19,680
They're like, well, I don't care about this, but my mentor is super successful.

363
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,400
And if I want to be super successful, I want to do what they do.

364
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,800
And please do not do that.

365
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,920
Because your mentor's career birthed probably 20, 30 years ago is a different career from

366
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,040
your career.

367
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,640
And they've been successful.

368
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,800
And congratulations to your mentor.

369
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,200
You are building something new.

370
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,000
And the thing you're building is for this generation.

371
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,000
It's for now.

372
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,320
It's starting 20, 30 years later.

373
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,400
And you've got to care about what you're doing.

374
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:58,040
And it's got to really be the area in which you have strong expertise and you care about.

375
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,720
So you want to make sure they overlap.

376
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:06,320
Don't go changing what you're doing just because it makes sense.

377
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,680
It makes sense this moment.

378
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,760
It's short term gain.

379
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:15,440
But long term, that probably doesn't get you to where you need to be.

380
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,360
So those are the five questions.

381
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:22,400
I'll tell you that I actually have seven.

382
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,280
But I think it's good to stop at five.

383
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,720
If you want to hear the other two, you should come to our upcoming webinar where I talk

384
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:39,560
about how clinicians can transition to research leadership.

385
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:46,440
And I'm doing that on November 20th, Monday, November 20th at 6 p.m. Eastern time.

386
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,120
You are invited.

387
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:53,640
For more information, you should visit our podcast website, ClinicianResearcherPodcast.com.

388
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,720
But I'm excited because this is my dream.

389
00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,320
It's my vision is to see more clinicians lead research programs.

390
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,520
And I think it's challenging.

391
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,520
It's difficult.

392
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:09,680
But I absolutely know it can be done because I'm doing it and I'm helping other clients

393
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,320
do it as well.

394
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,960
And I know that if it is your dream, you can do it too.

395
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,880
So to summarize, five questions you need to ask yourself on the journey to becoming a

396
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,160
clinician scientist.

397
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,720
Number one, what do I care about?

398
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,520
Number two, am I committed to research leadership?

399
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,040
Number three, what classified information do I need access to?

400
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,320
Number four, what structures do I need to create to guarantee my success?

401
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,520
Number five, what is my overlapping area of clinical expertise?

402
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,440
Those are the five questions today.

403
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,640
I want to thank you so much for taking the time to listen.

404
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:53,680
And I look forward to talking with you again the next time.

405
00:23:53,680 --> 00:24:02,400
Take care.

406
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,720
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

407
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:13,200
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

408
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,520
have a mentor.

409
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:20,640
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

410
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,360
Someone else needs to hear it.

411
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:26,440
So take a minute right now and share it.

412
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,880
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

413
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:37,520
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health

414
00:24:37,520 --> 00:25:05,520
care.