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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to be talking with you today.

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Thank you for tuning in.

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Today, I'm going to talk about how clinicians can make the transition from clinician to

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researcher.

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And I want to share it with you because it's a transition that I had to make when I first

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started in my faculty career.

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Now, the ideal time to start to make the transition is really in your fellowship, for those of

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you who did a postdoctoral fellowship, because it's an opportunity for you to take two years

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of research, which is usually the case in most of these fellowship programs that have

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a research component.

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You take the two years to connect with a mentor, work in a mentor's research program, create

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opportunities for scholarly productivity, so write papers, publish, and submit grants.

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And so ideally, you're done with the fellowship and you have already a couple of manuscripts

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in hand.

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You have an area of expertise that you're building and you might have some grant funding.

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Okay, that's the ideal.

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For someone like me, it didn't quite work out that way.

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And it's not that I didn't really work hard to get some research opportunities during

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fellowship, it's that for different reasons, I wasn't able to get the mentoring that helps

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me build the research in the way I wanted to.

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And so I did apply for grant funding, I did publish a manuscript or two, but it really

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wasn't where it needed to be by the time I ended my faculty career.

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I mean, by the time I ended my fellowship.

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And the challenge is when you now go, or at least when I went to seek a clinical research

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job or a job where I could be a clinician scientist, it didn't look as if I was a serious

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person from the perspective of the hiring party, right?

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So from the academic institution trying to hire me, it was like, well, you don't look

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like someone who knows how to do this.

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You don't look like someone who can't succeed.

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And so it makes it difficult when they go to advocate for this hire, they say, well,

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you want to hire this person as a physician scientist.

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And then people, the institution asks, where is the evidence that this person is going

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to be able to do this successfully?

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The evidence they have for people like me is that, you know what, we've been doing clinical

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training for a long time and we're really good at the clinical things.

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But the research getting, the grant getting, the research structure, the creating manuscripts,

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there is not that much evidence to support that.

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And so I ended up really in a clinical job at the beginning.

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And for many clinicians, that's our trajectory.

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We start out fully clinical when we start our faculty careers, even though we want to

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succeed as researchers.

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And that's a group I'm talking to today.

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I'm talking to the group of people who didn't do all the things that were supposed to happen

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at the time that you completed your fellowship.

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And now you're a faculty member trying to build a research program, but you're really

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fully clinical or mostly clinical.

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Nobody's ever 100% clinical, at least that's what they say on paper.

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But I want to talk to you because I do think it's possible.

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I know it's possible.

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I'm living the life.

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So I know it's possible.

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I also know that it is challenging.

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And I know that if you're going to do it, you actually need direction.

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Like it's not that kind of thing that just happens by accident.

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It's the thing that happens because you are intentional about creating opportunities for

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that to happen.

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So I want to share some insights about that today.

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And I also want to share with you that you can.

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You can succeed no matter what anybody says.

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You are qualified.

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As someone who has come through medical training, you've already done the impossible.

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You can do it again.

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And so if anybody ever tells you you can't, you're not qualified, it's really not true.

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The question will always be, is this what you want to do?

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And are you willing to pay the price to do it?

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That's the question.

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And if the answer to both is yes, then you absolutely should do it.

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And I'm going to talk about seven ways that you can think about doing it.

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So number one is you've got to commit.

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A research leadership pathway is a commitment.

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It's not a let's just do it and see how it works out.

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It's a commitment you make because it's going to be hard.

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You're going to fail.

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I like to say fail forward.

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There's going to be challenges.

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There are times where you're going to be like, is this even worth it?

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It really is a commitment.

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It's a commitment.

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You say, I'm going to do this.

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I'm going to make it work.

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And if you're going to make this kind of commitment, it's like don't commit to someone in marriage

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unless you love them, right?

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Do not commit to research unless there's something about research that you really love, right?

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Unless there's a project you want to move forward, unless it's a patient population

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that really resonates with you.

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Don't commit unless there is love.

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I really do mean that.

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And I know sometimes people are like, well, you know, everybody says you should do research,

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so I just want to do it.

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And I have to tell you that that doesn't sustain this long-term relationship.

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It is a long-term relationship.

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And there are people who quit along the way.

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And it's not to say that you can't quit.

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I'm just saying that I'm not talking to people who are not committed.

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Because there's a different way you move forward when you are kind of like non-committal.

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You can like try it and see if it works out.

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But you know, if you are trying it and you're not sure this is what you want to do, then

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I want to say that it's going to be hard.

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And whenever the hard knocks come, it's going to knock you out.

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Because research is not for the faint of heart.

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Leading a research program is not for anybody who's wishy-washy about it.

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Like, it literally is a commitment.

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It's a commitment to persistence.

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It's a commitment to going after funding after you've been rejected time after time after

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time after time.

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I mean, who wants to do that?

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And so you only do it if you commit.

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And so that's the first thing you got to do is commit to building a research program.

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Say to yourself, this is going to be hard.

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I'm going to be rejected.

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There are times it's going to suck and I'm committing to this process.

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And that's really the first step.

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I would say that if you cannot commit, if you are not committed to the process, if you're

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not committed to the journey, then I'm not really sure that you should move forward.

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And I know everybody's not here to lead a research program.

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You can participate in research without leading research.

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You can contribute without leading research.

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But that's not what I'm talking about.

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I'm really talking about leading a research program.

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That's the commitment.

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Participating in research doesn't require commitment.

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You do a little bit here, you do a little bit there.

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If it works out, great.

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If it doesn't work out, great.

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But if you're going to build a program in which other people come and build their careers

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out of your program, you got to commit.

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So step number one is commitment.

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You make a commitment.

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Okay.

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Step number two is get clear about what is needed to succeed.

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And one of the things that clinicians especially need to get clear about is the fact that clinical

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training is not research training.

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I'm going to say that again.

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Clinical training is not research training.

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Yes, you did some research methods.

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Yes, you had a chance to do a little bit of scholarly activities throughout your clinical

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training, but it is not research training.

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If you want to see what research training looks like, you go to a PhD program where

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people are actually trained in research methods.

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That is research training.

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Okay.

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So you got to get clear about what is the gap between where you are right now, oh, excellently

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trained clinician, and where you're going to be someone who is able to understand research,

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what methodology is needed, what is required to make a program succeed.

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And if you don't know, it's time to phone up a friend, usually a PhD scientist or maybe

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an MD scientist or an MD physician or an MD PhD who is succeeding in research, right?

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Because everybody who's MD who's doing research is not necessarily leading a program.

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And everybody who's MD PhD is not necessarily leading a research program either.

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So don't go by title, go by what people are doing and spend some time with people.

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Ask questions.

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Hey, how is this working out?

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What do you need to succeed?

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What does it take?

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And you really need to do this because people will get real with you.

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And the reason it's important is because people will tell you, you cannot succeed in building

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a research program being 100% clinical.

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It doesn't happen.

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The reason it doesn't happen is because clinical care is not research.

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This is very hard for many clinicians to imagine that leading a research program means not

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being fully clinical.

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Because for many of us clinicians, we didn't go into medical school to lead research programs.

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I mean, we didn't go into medical school to not do clinical care.

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We did the whole thing.

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We went through residency and fellowships so we could take care of patients.

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And so when you finally figure out that research and to really build and lead a research program

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means taking time away from clinical care, for many clinicians, it's like a shock.

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It's like, no, I love my patients.

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And it's good.

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And the reason you need to get clear is so that you decide, is this what you want to

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do?

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If leading a research program means that you're not going to be seeing patients five days

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a week, is that for you?

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Is it what you want?

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Is it the life you want to build?

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And if the answer is no, it's okay.

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It is absolutely okay.

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But you want to know and you want to choose and you want to make an informed decision.

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So go get clear about what you need.

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Call your friends, not your friends.

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Usually they're ahead of you because if you're in this place, you're not.

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Your friends might not be leading research programs.

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They're ahead of you probably.

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But anyway, get clear about what is needed to succeed in research.

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Okay.

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Now you've figured out, okay, you've made the commitment.

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You're clear about what is needed to succeed.

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Your next step is to create structure.

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And what do I mean by creating structure?

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It's creating structure by which research succeeds.

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What do I mean by that?

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Okay.

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If you are a research scientist, you are also a writer.

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You are a science communicator.

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That means you take time to communicate your science, number one, to funders.

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You got to say, hey, funders, this is my idea.

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This is why you've got to give me money.

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That's one form of communication.

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Your second form of communication is to the research community, the scientific community,

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saying, hey, I've already done some stuff.

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This is what we found.

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Here it is, right?

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You got to get through the peer review process to be able to communicate your research through

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journals.

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Okay.

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So you're a science communicator communicating your research through publication.

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But then you're also a communicator as you're communicating to your peers.

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You're saying, hey, I'm going to come to your conference and talk about my research.

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So you are a science communicator.

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And you've got to create structure to be an effective science communicator.

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And that means creating structure for your daily writing.

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I did say daily, not binge writing.

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Like every once, once every three months, you have eight hours and then you can go churn

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out a manuscript or churn out three manuscripts or maybe even four.

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Not that, but daily consistent writing, daily consistent thinking about your research, daily

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consistent moving your research forward.

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It doesn't happen by accident.

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Doesn't happen seridebitiously.

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If you're a clinician, your patients will always take you away.

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Your patient care activities, I shouldn't say patients, your patient care activities

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will always try to take you away from leading your research program.

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Creating structure allows you to say, hey, patient care related activities, this is where

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you fit.

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And hey, research related activities, this is where you fit.

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And structure allows you to do that.

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Okay.

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So create structure.

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The next thing you've got to do is own your clinical expertise.

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You have got to own your clinical expertise.

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If you are a clinician trying to break into research, you cannot be a clinician in one

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field and a researcher in a different field.

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It doesn't work well.

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The reason it doesn't work well is because there's no overlap between what you're interested

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in clinically and what you're doing for research.

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You have to go every time you're having to take time away from your usual life to go

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figure out whatever is needed in your research.

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And that's why it makes sense and it works best if what you're researching is in your

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clinical area.

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So you're a hematologist, you're doing hematology research.

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You are very interested in thrombosis.

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You're seeing patients who have thrombosis.

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You're doing research in thrombosis.

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So your clinical area and your research area do need to overlap.

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I have to tell you that it's very difficult.

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I can't tell you whether it's impossible or not, but it is very difficult to do research

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in an area that's disparate from your area of focus.

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Now your area of clinical focus.

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Now that's not to say you can't have a mentor outside of your field because what you get

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from mentors is not necessarily the clinical expertise.

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You already have that, but you've got to really make sure that your focus, your research area,

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your disease focus really overlaps with what you see clinically.

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And that allows you to own your clinical expertise.

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It allows you not to go looking for the clinician who can help you move forward.

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And that's one thing that I see that I think can be a challenge.

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When we as clinicians already expert clinically in one area, we don't actually need another

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clinician to partner with in research in the sense that, yes, we can partner with researchers

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who are with clinicians who can provide patients for our studies, sure.

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But when it comes to partnership that brings synergy, usually what I've seen work is the

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partnership of a clinician with a methodologist.

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But owning your expertise allows you to come to the table as a contributor.

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Someone saying, hey, I'm not here just for you to feed me.

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I'm bringing something solid to the table and I want you to be a partner because it

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is so important that you do that.

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One of the things I see is this deficit mindset from many junior faculty where it's like,

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well, I don't know, I don't know, I don't have, I need a mentor, there's nobody to help

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me.

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And yes, you do need a mentor.

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You need many things, but first own what you have, own what you got, own your expertise.

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That's the first step.

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It's the first step to confidence.

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It is difficult to lead a research program if you are not confident.

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If you have this mindset of deficit where it's like, I don't have enough, I don't have

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enough, and you come across to people as needy.

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I have to tell you that many people do not like to connect with needy people.

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People like to connect with people who are bringing something to the table.

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When you own your clinical expertise, you are clearly an expert who's bringing something

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to the table.

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And so I want you to own your clinical expertise.

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The next thing you're going to do is you're going to collaborate with research methodologists.

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Look, the reality is clinical training is not research training.

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And I am excited for you if you were able to get two full years of research out of your

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fellowship.

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Many of us were not, but even then, that's not really a full breadth of research training

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as say our colleagues, the PhD scientists get.

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And so you can go and start from scratch.

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You can go get a PhD.

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Absolutely you could.

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Or you could just connect with a PhD researcher who already has a methodology that you are

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trying to learn.

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And you bring your clinical expertise to them and you're helping them learn and grow.

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Because if you're going to be a successful researcher, you actually do need some clinical

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knowledge as well as research knowledge.

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You need both.

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If you're going to do research, it's going to be beneficial to patients.

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You need both.

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And so when you come to the research methodologist, you're like, hey, I'm a clinical expert here.

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I don't know as much methodology.

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How can I learn from you?

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And they're like, well, I'm the research methodologist.

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I'm an expert here.

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But I don't have the clinical expertise.

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Then, oh my goodness, what synergy exists between you and the research methodologist?

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Because then you can both simultaneously mutually benefit each other.

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It is such an amazing experience.

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And you don't have to do their work for them.

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They don't have to do your work for you.

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But in providing a clinical expertise and learning from their research expertise, you

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grow in your research expertise.

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I will tell you that I had a conversation with one of my collaborators recently.

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And she said, I was speaking like a methodologist.

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It was so exciting.

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I was like, oh my gosh, I'm learning.

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I'm learning.

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And that's what happens when you collaborate with someone whose expertise is in an area

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that's different from your own expertise.

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You grow and you learn.

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It's a beautiful thing.

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And it helps you accelerate your research.

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OK.

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Then the next thing you've got to do is connect to resources.

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OK.

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Research doesn't happen unless it's funded.

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And it may be that you've been funding it by working without pay on nights and weekends.

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Please do not let that be your life.

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Or you find a funder who helps you fund the work so that you can do it during the daytime

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as part of your daytime work.

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Absolutely recommended.

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You need funding.

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Connecting to resources is about finding funding.

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But here's the thing.

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Everybody wants to start with NIH funding.

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And NIH funding is awesome.

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Thank you, government NIH, for giving us federal financial assistance through the form of NIH

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grants.

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Yes, NIH grants are awesome.

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And you know what?

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The competition for those is kind of stiff.

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And if you're just starting out, you're not likely to be competitive for an NIH grant

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by yourself.

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Maybe collaborating with a PhD scientist, you might be able to be.

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But starting out, especially if you're applying as the leader of your research program, as

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like the PI, you might not be so successful.

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But you might be more successful looking at foundation grants.

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You may be more successful looking at seed grants within your institution.

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You may be more successful looking at seed grants from corporations or industry.

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There is an opportunity for you.

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OK.

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If you are someone who's not been funded yet, I just want you to say after me, there is

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an opportunity for me.

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Oh, you know what?

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Even if you have been funded, you're probably looking for more funding.

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Say after me.

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There is an opportunity for me.

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Great.

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Great.

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It's important for you to recognize that there are people waiting to fund you.

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It may not be NIH just yet, but there are people waiting to fund you.

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Don't look at the people who are not letting you in.

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Look around for the people who are letting you in.

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Connect to resources.

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And resources are not just funders.

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Resources are medical students looking for a project.

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Resources are residents who want to publish.

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Resources are fellows who are looking for opportunities.

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Look around and see what you already have.

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Do not close your eyes saying, I have nothing.

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And then literally people around you waiting for opportunity.

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Connect to resources.

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They are all around you.

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The final thing I want to share with you is the need to connect with community.

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If you're a clinician looking to transition to become a research scientist, you are a

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minority of folk.

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Right?

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You're in the minority.

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And there are not many people around you that want to do the same unless you are intentional

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about finding that community.

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I want to invite you to find community, to reach out to people who are thinking like

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you, trying to do what you're doing.

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Find community.

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When I am talking about community, I'm not just talking about mentors.

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Oh, yes.

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Mentors are everywhere and they're so hard to talk to.

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They're so busy.

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And I thank God for all my mentors.

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Mentors, I appreciate you very much.

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I'm a mentor.

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You know, there's just a lot going on.

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And the mentors don't think like you do anymore because they're past a lot of things.

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They don't even remember the things they used to not know.

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Right?

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It's the way it is.

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But there's a group of peers who's trying to do what you're doing.

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There's a group of people across the country, across the world even, who are trying to move

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in the same direction that you're moving in.

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You got to get in community with them because there will be some people in that community

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who are a little bit ahead of you and will inspire you to more.

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There'll be people who are not as far as you and you'll be able to inspire them to more.

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There'll be people who are right about where you are and you'll be able to encourage each

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other.

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It'll be so awesome.

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But you do have to find community.

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And most of the time, if you're going to find a community of clinicians trying to make the

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transition to lead research programs, you got to leave your regular environment, your

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regular habitat and go find them.

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They're there.

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We are here.

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And we exist.

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And we're in hiding because you got to move away from people who are not doing what you're

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doing so you can get the encouragement you need to succeed in the way you want to succeed.

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And I invite you to join community.

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I invite you to join my community even as I am launching the next coaching series.

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And so we're starting our next coaching session with our first webinar.

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So we have a webinar coming up.

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It's happening on November 20th at 6 p.m. Eastern time.

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I want you to check out our research podcast, our podcast website.

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That's ClinicianResearcherPodcast.com.

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You can also check out our website, Coedcoach.com, for more information about the upcoming webinar.

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But I do want you to come and find out.

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I'm going to talk about five ways to make the transition from clinician to researcher.

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I'll be talking a lot about what I've talked about today, but in a lot more detail and

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giving you insight about how you too, if you are looking to make the same transition, can

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transition.

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All right.

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So I want you to please share this episode.

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00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:45,580
Somebody else needs to hear that they can.

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00:23:45,580 --> 00:23:48,060
Somebody else needs to hear that it's possible.

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00:23:48,060 --> 00:23:51,120
Somebody else needs to hear that it's not crazy.

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You absolutely can do this.

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And I just want to encourage you to make the transition and to find the community that

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helps you do that.

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All right.

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It has been an absolute pleasure talking with you today.

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Thank you for taking the time to listen.

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00:24:04,340 --> 00:24:15,940
I look forward to talking with you again the next time.

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00:24:15,940 --> 00:24:21,300
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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00:24:21,300 --> 00:24:26,780
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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have a mentor.

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00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:34,220
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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00:24:34,220 --> 00:24:35,980
Someone else needs to hear it.

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00:24:35,980 --> 00:24:40,020
So take a minute right now and share it.

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00:24:40,020 --> 00:24:45,480
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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00:24:45,480 --> 00:25:05,260
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.