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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is a pleasure to be here today.

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I have an outstanding clinician scientist to introduce to you today.

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Her name is Dr. Stella Chou.

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Stella, welcome to the show.

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Thank you.

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So, Stella, for our audience, would you please introduce yourself, especially in the context

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of how you came to be doing this thing, where you're a clinician and a scientist at the

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same time?

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Sure.

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So, I'm a pediatric hematologist by training, who then got a fellowship training in transfusion

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medicine.

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So, I practice both non-malignant hematology and transfusion medicine, primarily in pediatrics,

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but I do care for young adults as well.

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And I think really how I got here was pretty circuitous.

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I went to med school because I wanted to be a pediatrician, and during med school, I became

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interested actually in pediatric oncology.

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But when I came to CHUMP, I was exposed to all aspects of pediatric hematology that actually

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piqued my interests in a different way.

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And probably the reason why I ended up in hematology versus oncology, honestly, is because

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for my second year during fellowship, I chose to join the lab of Dr. Mitchell Weiss, who's

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now at St. Jude's.

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And I joined his lab to study a disease that affects children with Down syndrome.

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So, patients with trisomy 21 who get either transient abnormal myelopoiesis or myeloid

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leukemia.

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And at first, it really combined my interest in hematopoiesis as well as oncology.

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But I think in working with Mitch, I just leaned more and more towards hematology.

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And after I completed my fellowship, I ended up doing a transfusion medicine fellowship

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a few years later.

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And again, that was something that just was an opportunity that came my way, and I decided

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to take it and met a number of people in the transfusion medicine community who sort of

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helped me make that decision.

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And since then, I have primarily worked more in the hematology, transfusion, medicine space,

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but the project I came to do as a second year fellow, I guess now it's almost 20 years ago

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when I joined Mitch's lab.

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We still work on that problem in my own lab, but we have much better tools two decades

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later, I think.

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But it's interesting to look back and say, for instance, grants that I wrote as a fellow,

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what were the questions we were asking and trying to answer?

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And some of those questions are still unanswered and we're still trying to answer, which is

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part of science.

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But I guess my point is that I think I ended up here because of just different people in

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my career and then the different opportunities that came my way being at Chopin and Penn.

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Awesome.

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Thank you for sharing.

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Now, I see in your story, someone who was open to opportunities and someone who recognized

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and took opportunities.

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Can you tell me about what it was in your makeup, either your prior history or family

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history, your experiences that allowed you to be that kind of person who just kind of

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took opportunities as they came?

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I think probably it's how I was raised.

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My parents were both immigrants to the US.

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I think people oftentimes look at me now and just expect that I had every opportunity in

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my lifetime, but my grandfather actually immigrated here and was a magician and then ended up having

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his own laundry mat business, which provided him with the means to then end up buying real

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estate and doing very well for himself.

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But both my parents do not hold college degrees and still I'm actually the first generation

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of my family to have a college degree, which you can imagine is very different, especially

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now as my own daughter is applying for college for this next fall.

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It's the types of applications and the types of opportunities she has compared to what

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I have.

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But I think what my parents always instilled in me was that opportunities are in front

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of you.

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You just have to recognize when something's an opportunity and take it.

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And I think their opportunities were very different than the opportunities that I had

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to take.

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But I think nonetheless, it sort of was a lesson in life that I think my parents imparted

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on myself and my four siblings just by their actions.

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They never really said those words to us.

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I think it was really by their actions and how they just supported us.

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And they always tried to do everything for us that would allow us to have every opportunity,

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even though we didn't always have all the means that other people in my school had.

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So I think that's probably where it's most grounded from.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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I mean, I see just it sounds like a family culture of looking for opportunity, recognizing

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it and seizing it when it comes, but also being prepared for the opportunity when it

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arises.

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And I think I've been really fortunate to be a place where people are very supportive.

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And I think that helps because you can try something and if you fail, they're fine with

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that and you can try to do something else.

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And so I think always knowing that you can try things and if you're willing to take a

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little bit of failure or you're willing to not have the expectation always that you will

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succeed in the way you think you're going to succeed, because I think that's something

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else that I learned along the way, is what do we consider a success and what you might

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think of as success might be different from who you report to per se.

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But in the end, I think that it really matters what you think is success and what you think

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brings meaning to what you do when you come to work every day.

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Wow.

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You said two things that are really amazing and I just want to come back to.

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So first you talk about failure and not being afraid to fail and the importance of having

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environments that allow you to do that so that you don't feel as if you're taking a

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risk it's an unalterable risk or you can't change direction.

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I want you to speak a little bit more about what that looks like, do you think, in today's

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environments for clinicians who are trying to make this transition to research, do we

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have the same kinds of supportive environments today?

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I think so.

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I think actually over the years there's been more and more support to take an idea, make

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it a question, write it in a grant, hopefully get funded, and then bring it to realization.

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I think there's many routes that you might take and some of them are certainly baby steps

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whereas other things might seem like they are riskier.

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I'm really going to try this.

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But I think if you have the attitude that you can make it happen by garnering the right

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people to help you do it.

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So I think we never do anything by ourselves.

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We get the help from the trainees who are in our lab or the research assistants or the

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research coordinators who we work with to all the people who help get things done.

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The core labs, our admins, our sponsored projects office, there's so many people who are involved.

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And then also the people that you look to as mentors and sponsors.

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I think you know that you have so many different places where you might be able to get help.

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But I do think people is a major facet.

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I feel like if I find that there's a challenging problem, I think I have the mindset of, well,

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let me find someone who probably can solve this problem and see if I can work with them.

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And I think sometimes you have to choose wisely, right?

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So sometimes you don't go to like be the expert.

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You go to someone who, you know, knows the field well, but will also have the time and

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the space to work with you.

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And I think most things that we do end up really being a team effort.

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So I think nowadays, more than even when I started out, collaboration is really something

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that everybody supports and that institutions have found ways to allow for collaboration.

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So either they have small pilot grants for that or they have seminar series that try

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to bring different groups together.

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So then you meet people on a regular basis that you might not have had that interest

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group not have come together.

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And then certainly it seems like most funding agencies do support collaborative efforts.

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So I think that's a big piece of it.

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And I also think there is the element of being realistic.

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So for instance, when I started doing the work that has been done really in collaboration

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with New York Blood Center, with Connie Westoff and Sydney DeVege, looking at using molecular

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typing and doing high resolution typing at the RH locus to see how we could better match

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patients with sickle cell disease to their donors.

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I think we took baby steps, like first we showed that it was important.

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And now currently we have pilot clinical trials in a small subset of patients who were actually

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providing genotype matched blood.

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And we knew that logistically we had to get blood from the New York Blood Center, which

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is at a depot in Long Island City to Philadelphia.

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We know that patients reschedule or patients have other reasons why they might not come

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that particular day, or if we have something that shows up in their antibody screen that

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day and we might have to change course a little bit.

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So really we started out as a pilot study.

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And I think the next step will be to extend that study still as a single institution study

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before we can take it on to the next step, which is a multi-institutional study.

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But to do that will require even more collaboration.

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So we're going to need other blood centers aside from New York Blood Center being involved.

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We'll need multiple institutions who would be able and willing to participate.

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And there's probably a lot of other facets that we would have to figure out in terms

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of information technology, how we're going to transfer all that data between different

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blood centers, different hospital sites, and then having patient data on one side, donor

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data on the other side.

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It's pretty complex.

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So we've taken in baby steps to be realistic.

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We didn't go from, oh, this is important to let's try to get this directly in the clinic.

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But I think in the end, I hope that within my career that this is going to be something

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that's going to be available for patients because I think there's advances that are

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being made outside of the work that we're doing, which will allow methods that will

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allow us to sequence at a much more cost effective way.

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There's probably going to be other work that's done.

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For instance, there's a national group through the DHHS who's looking at an antibody registry

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for hospitals to report their antibodies.

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So in that sense, it's like trying to find a way where there's going to be a method to

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communicate information from different hospital sites about transfusion data, and that potentially

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would help be a platform for anything we would want to do in the future.

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So I think melding things that are things that you work on, but knowing what everybody

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else is working on and seeing how that might help.

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I feel like I've gotten way far off.

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You can try to bring it back.

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No, actually, I feel like you did a great job of just kind of...

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First of all, I think one of the things you did was go to a 30,000 foot view and talk

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to us about how this is big picture.

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There's so much going on.

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It's very complicated.

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And what you succeeded in doing is taking something that's a small piece of it and then

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just advancing it just a little step at a time.

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And even now, you are doing kind of collaborative projects even between centers and talking

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about how that gets bigger.

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Multiple centers will need to be involved, multiple blood centers.

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And I think what you're talking about is just the cascading effect of the work that we do

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when we start small and not expecting...

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Because many times, and Stella, you're senior enough that people look to you and they're

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like, oh my gosh, she's so successful.

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Look at all the awesome stuff she's doing.

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And what people miss is the baby steps that you took when you first started and the fact

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that you still are taking baby steps and that's what's moving you forward.

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And I think it's important that people recognize that.

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I think the other thing I love that you said at the very beginning is you talked about

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collaboration, but you didn't start with mentors.

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You started with those around you immediately.

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And I feel like you talked about your trainees in the lab.

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You talked about the research assistants.

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You talked about choosing specialized mentors carefully.

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And I really love that because sometimes I think there's a sense from, I think especially

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people who are just starting out, that there is one mentor, one senior person who's going

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to open the door and all things are going to fall in place.

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And I think many people are disappointed when they find that that doesn't happen.

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And I love that you started really with the reality of starting with who's around you,

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who's immediately available to help you.

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And when you look ahead to those who've gone far ahead, it's like who is specifically suited

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to help you, not just because of their expertise, but actually having the time and the interest

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to help you.

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So I love that you put so many things together.

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And I wonder if you want to speak to the whole piece of mentorship and how that plays a role

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in your advancement.

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I mean, certainly, I think I was also really fortunate because I had multiple mentors in

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my early career.

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So I chose to work at Mitch Weiss's lab and he was my primary mentor and he was a phenomenal

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mentor.

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He was a great manager in the lab.

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He thought it was fun to come into the lab and show me how to do things like literally

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hands on.

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But at the same time, he was more than just an academic mentor.

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I think he is one of the few men who I have seen in science who really partnered with

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his wife, who is also a physician scientist.

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And I always found it refreshing to see his contributions to their family.

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So he would sometimes just have a hard stop at five o'clock because he was the one who

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was responsible to pick up his children from daycare.

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So I think his way of just balancing work and life as well was important to me.

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But he was also a sponsor.

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So I think one of the things that I always tell trainees that I interact with now is

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that you really have to find something that you love doing.

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And like you said, looking back now, I went through a period in his lab where I said,

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I'm going to finish my project and then I'm going to move on.

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So I came to his lab without any basic lab research experience.

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I picked up a pipette the first time coming to his lab.

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And I didn't think that that was where my career was going.

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I wanted it for the experience, but not necessarily to run my own lab.

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And I would say that finishing fellowship, I thought that I was going to finish my project

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and move on.

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And he said, you have to do what makes you happy.

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If this is not what makes you happy, then you should choose to move on.

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And I thought that at the time I would get a master's in clinical epidemiology next and

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move on to really more clinical research.

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But as it happened, just other forces that were happening in my life and being married

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also to a physician and having two people that would need the right choice of an institution

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in their next career steps, we stayed here.

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And that was one of the reasons why I ended up doing the transfusion medicine fellowship

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a few years later.

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But I think just finding what makes you happy is what's really important.

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And sometimes it's a little transition period.

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So I will admit, I wrote my KOE.

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And I thought, in my mind, I'm not exactly sure why I'm writing my KOE because I'm not

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really going to be doing this anymore.

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But I wrote it and then I got it.

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So then I stayed in the lab for a few more years.

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And I think really what happened was it took time to gain more skills and gain more confidence

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in the lab, which I did not have initially because I did not have a PhD prior to my lab

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experience.

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And then I think what really catches you is you actually discover something and just the

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satisfaction and the joy you get of discovering something, having a body of work that you

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publish is quite satisfying.

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And I think that's probably what hooked me was the high you get off of that.

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So I still do think of Mitch as a mentor, a sponsor, a friend, a colleague.

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She's been a wonderful person in my life.

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I also was really lucky that through him, actually, I met Connie Westhoff, who is a

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giant in the field of transfusion medicine and R.H. genetics, and she too was also a

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mentor and a sponsor.

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And obviously we still collaborate.

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And even as she is moving on, probably in the next few years, she's slowly trying to

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take on retirement.

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I still go to her all the time because she has this wealth of knowledge, which I'm convinced

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nobody else on the planet Earth has besides her, but she was also a wonderful mentor and

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career advocate for me.

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And then I also had to mention Katie Mano, who was my clinical mentor in hematology.

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And she's the one who actually provided the opportunity of considering a transfusion medicine

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fellowship.

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And I think at the time, looking from her point of view, she saw it as a place where

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Chopp could probably use another person who was well versed in both hematology and transfusion

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medicine.

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And she probably just saw certain things in me that seemed like that would be a good fit

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for me.

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And she was super duper right.

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So I think just having, I've just been really lucky to have people in my career who have

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helped me find that opportunity.

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And partly, I think because they've taken the time to get to know me and really know

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me to help me choose the right pathway.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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One of the things that really resonates with me as you're sharing is that you really had

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multiple relationships that were instrumental in your forward motion.

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And it was mentoring relationships, but it was also the intersection between what's going

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on in your career, what was going on in your personal life and making things work.

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And so ultimately, I think what I'm hearing you also say is just how you have to look

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at everything in the context of your life, also in the context of what you enjoy doing,

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and then see what opportunities make the most sense for you.

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So then I'm almost hearing you say there's no cookie cutter way forward, and there is

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no one person or one thing that is in charge of moving everything forward.

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It's just really integrating all the experiences that you're having to pick the thing that

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makes the most sense to move forward in.

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Is that fair to say?

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Exactly.

300
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Yep.

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That's what I tried to convey to you.

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Yeah.

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Now I like it.

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I love it because I think it's that we are, we're hard workers as clinicians.

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I don't think that's anything that has to be said, but just even as we work hard, seeing

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what opportunities arise and not feeling like there has to be just one way, because then

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I think we could be disappointed.

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Which brings me to what you talked about, success.

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Let's talk about success.

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So what were you referring to when you talked about the different definitions of success?

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Well, I think how you define success, even just in the realm of say a clinician researcher,

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some might define success because they get promoted or they publish in a really high

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impact journal.

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For me, success is, I think success is doing every day what I truly love.

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I wake up in the morning and I think about what I'm going to try to tackle in a day and

316
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you never get it all done, but you just have that motivation every day to go to work and

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get something accomplished.

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I think for me, the thing that's been the most meaningful is seeing, again, we're taking

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baby steps, but seeing how some of the work that we do actually impacts patient care and

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seeing that we're moving the needle slowly, but we're moving the needle.

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I think for me, knowing that what we do every day in the lab or in our clinical research

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studies, there's going to be an outcome that actually matters is how I define success.

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Whereas on the other side, we do some pretty basic stuff in the lab and sometimes we're

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successful too.

325
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We figure out what are proteins doing or we have a certain hypothesis and we're right

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in our hypothesis.

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That's satisfying also, but to me, that's less satisfying than knowing that the work

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we do can impact patient care or patient outcomes.

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I think that's the part that drives me the most and probably because I think I'm a clinician

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at heart and the questions I ask and the questions I tried to answer for myself are really clinical

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questions at the heart, but just using different tools.

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Absolutely.

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I feel like you speak to a lot of perspectives of clinicians because ultimately for many

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of us, we started out as clinicians first and then we made this transition to research.

335
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Really at the heart of our clinical heart is making things better for patients.

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I hear you speak about the opportunities you have to make an impact in the lives of patients

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and seeing your research turn into that is very satisfying for you.

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I also hear you talking about success as success and enjoying every day, success and enjoying

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your journey.

340
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Not looking for the end goal, though you have a lot of wonderful things that you've accomplished

341
00:24:58,180 --> 00:24:59,620
over the course of your career.

342
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You've gotten those things too, but not looking at those items as the things that define you

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as successful, but the fact that you're making an impact.

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You're doing work that you find meaningful.

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You're doing it every day.

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You're making discoveries that are interesting and important to you.

347
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I'm just hearing the threat of personal daily satisfaction.

348
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Yeah.

349
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I think that's what's really important because otherwise it'd be really hard to do our jobs

350
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where we're pulled in so many different directions and we have so many different responsibilities

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and we're just trying to always do our best in each of the different arenas, but we know

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that that's always challenging.

353
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It is.

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It is.

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And something that you didn't say that I feel like is part of the theme of what you're saying

356
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is you can't live somebody else's dream because that's very hard to do.

357
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And the fact that you're living your own dream allows you to manage all the challenges that

358
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are surrounding it and still move things forward.

359
00:25:59,980 --> 00:26:03,020
I don't know if you want to speak a little bit about that.

360
00:26:03,020 --> 00:26:06,780
I think the way I see it is I prioritize things.

361
00:26:06,780 --> 00:26:16,980
So I see sometimes I prioritize based on what I feel like I need to do versus what other

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people can do.

363
00:26:18,180 --> 00:26:27,460
So I could volunteer to say cover another clinic or something, but would that really

364
00:26:27,460 --> 00:26:32,780
be the best use of my time or would I contribute the most to us as a group?

365
00:26:32,780 --> 00:26:34,440
And that's probably no.

366
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:39,360
But there are other things that I know I can do.

367
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So for instance, somebody asked me to look at their specific aims page for their K award

368
00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:49,060
and I know that's particularly important that I could potentially give them feedback at

369
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this stage where they still have a month to do it and I prioritize that much higher.

370
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So I think you really have to prioritize what's really important.

371
00:27:00,740 --> 00:27:05,420
I think one of the challenges we all have these days is that there seems to be a lot

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of tasks that we all have to do.

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00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:16,540
There's endless emails about things that you need to fill out or do and it can be onerous

374
00:27:16,540 --> 00:27:17,900
to get all those things done.

375
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:24,380
But I think prioritizing them and then seeing where you can delegate things or seeing where

376
00:27:24,380 --> 00:27:31,380
you can do something quickly rather than spend too much time on it helps me at least manage

377
00:27:31,380 --> 00:27:36,380
the day to day so that I get to spend time on things that I think are what's really important

378
00:27:36,380 --> 00:27:41,900
and what I really want to do so that you don't get overwhelmed by all that other task-oriented

379
00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:44,460
work that we oftentimes have.

380
00:27:44,460 --> 00:27:46,460
I love it.

381
00:27:46,460 --> 00:27:52,220
I found that I think you gave us some kind of organization of type gems in all of that.

382
00:27:52,220 --> 00:27:54,340
One you talk about working in your zone of genius.

383
00:27:54,340 --> 00:27:58,380
So there are many things you can do but what are the things that you are uniquely qualified

384
00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:00,860
to do that you actually like to do?

385
00:28:00,860 --> 00:28:04,380
Another thing is recognizing that while everything needs to get done, everything doesn't need

386
00:28:04,380 --> 00:28:05,980
to get done equally well.

387
00:28:05,980 --> 00:28:11,100
And what are the things that you can drop your standards on but still get done?

388
00:28:11,100 --> 00:28:14,260
And what are the things that you absolutely need to focus on?

389
00:28:14,260 --> 00:28:18,580
And then one thing you said also that I really, really, really, I don't know, it gets me excited

390
00:28:18,580 --> 00:28:21,700
to think about is moving your work forward.

391
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:26,660
And that's so important because if you don't move your work forward, nobody else will.

392
00:28:26,660 --> 00:28:30,660
And other work needs to be moved forward and you surely do need to be part of that as a

393
00:28:30,660 --> 00:28:32,260
collaborative person.

394
00:28:32,260 --> 00:28:38,260
But prioritizing the work that really means a lot to you, really moves your career forward

395
00:28:38,260 --> 00:28:39,260
is important.

396
00:28:39,260 --> 00:28:45,520
And I do think that many of us early on always think about, well, how do we satisfy the needs

397
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:46,520
of everybody else?

398
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,100
And then at the end of the day, we hope there's time to move our work forward.

399
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:52,500
It's really our work comes first.

400
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:56,900
And then we find time later to move other people's work forward as well.

401
00:28:56,900 --> 00:28:57,900
Right.

402
00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:03,860
And I think it's particularly true because there aren't too many of us that practice

403
00:29:03,860 --> 00:29:10,140
hematology, transfusion medicine, and then have a particular skill set.

404
00:29:10,140 --> 00:29:17,580
So for instance, we had a project where we were making in-vitro derived red cells from

405
00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:24,380
induced cloripotent stem cells that we genetically engineered to have specific Rh variants or

406
00:29:24,380 --> 00:29:26,580
Rh null.

407
00:29:26,580 --> 00:29:33,900
And I think what was special about that project was that I was sort of like a matchmaker in

408
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:38,540
the sense that we had Connie Westhoff from the New York Blood Center who's like an Rh

409
00:29:38,540 --> 00:29:44,820
expert and we had Gordon Keller from Canada who's an expert in developmental hematopoiesis

410
00:29:44,820 --> 00:29:54,100
and cloripotent stem cells and Jim Pallas at Rochester who also really understands developmental

411
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:55,760
red cell development.

412
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,300
And then we had people from CHOP.

413
00:29:57,300 --> 00:30:03,420
So Paul Gaudu and Dina French who are long time collaborators at CHOP who work mostly

414
00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:05,260
on iPS cells.

415
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:11,740
But bringing all of that different expertise to put together in this project was very unique

416
00:30:11,740 --> 00:30:17,980
because it was like little pieces of the puzzle and getting it all together.

417
00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:23,700
And we're so far from, you know, that's another goal of mine is by the end of my career, I'd

418
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:29,540
like to know that that work went somewhere where, you know, it's actually in the blood

419
00:30:29,540 --> 00:30:30,540
bank.

420
00:30:30,540 --> 00:30:34,180
We actually have reagents that we developed in the blood bank helping us to facilitate

421
00:30:34,180 --> 00:30:36,500
antibody identification.

422
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:42,300
Or maybe, you know, and this is probably a much higher goal, is that we see the Rh null

423
00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:48,460
cells that we created actually get to a place where we can make an ass that they can be

424
00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:49,460
used.

425
00:30:49,460 --> 00:30:53,180
I don't know for transfusion unless we're going to transfuse neonates with them, but

426
00:30:53,180 --> 00:30:58,780
as like a drug carrier or something where you use it for immune modulation, but something

427
00:30:58,780 --> 00:30:59,980
in the clinic.

428
00:30:59,980 --> 00:31:01,900
And I think it has like a certain utility.

429
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:07,600
I think, again, it's there's so many aspects of it, which we're good at some of those aspects.

430
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,660
And I'm still looking for, you know, collaborators to help with some of the other aspects of

431
00:31:12,660 --> 00:31:14,580
making it a reality.

432
00:31:14,580 --> 00:31:20,820
But it's, again, bringing together all these different people that have different expertise

433
00:31:20,820 --> 00:31:25,540
is one of the most enjoyable parts, I think, of the work that we do.

434
00:31:25,540 --> 00:31:27,260
I love it.

435
00:31:27,260 --> 00:31:30,260
It's I love how you use the term matchmaker.

436
00:31:30,260 --> 00:31:34,660
It's recognizing where you're strong and where you're not strong, and then looking around

437
00:31:34,660 --> 00:31:39,340
to see who are the people in your network that can fill the gaps.

438
00:31:39,340 --> 00:31:43,100
And even if they're not in your network, you know, how do you expand your networks to fill

439
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:47,540
gaps that allow your work to move forward because you can't do it by yourself.

440
00:31:47,540 --> 00:31:50,100
So really speaking to the power of collaboration.

441
00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:51,820
Yeah, that's that's really awesome.

442
00:31:51,820 --> 00:31:55,600
Well, Stella, we're coming to the end of this time.

443
00:31:55,600 --> 00:32:00,580
And I really want you, if you could just, you know, speaking to someone who let's say

444
00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:05,180
we have a clinician who's in their early fellowship years, they're like, well, I've never picked

445
00:32:05,180 --> 00:32:06,180
up a pipette.

446
00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:08,780
I have no idea how I would contribute.

447
00:32:08,780 --> 00:32:12,260
I don't even know that I could be successful as a scientist.

448
00:32:12,260 --> 00:32:13,260
What would you say to them?

449
00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:16,980
I would say they 100% could do it.

450
00:32:16,980 --> 00:32:23,220
I think if you've gotten to this part of your career, you are motivated and intelligent

451
00:32:23,220 --> 00:32:29,900
enough to pick up a pipette in your early 30s and you have many, many more decades to

452
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:30,900
come.

453
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:32,460
So I think they can definitely do it.

454
00:32:32,460 --> 00:32:39,580
I think, again, probably choosing the right project and the right mentor is, of course,

455
00:32:39,580 --> 00:32:40,580
critical.

456
00:32:40,580 --> 00:32:46,460
So choose a project that, you know, sparks a real interest to you and choose a mentor

457
00:32:46,460 --> 00:32:48,820
who you really think you're going to connect with.

458
00:32:48,820 --> 00:32:54,660
So I think, you know, you have to find a mentor who will have the time to mentor you, who

459
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has experience mentoring.

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But ultimately, I think just knowing if the two of you connect on a personal level, I

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think really matters because that person should be someone you spent a lot of time with and

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who you're going to spend time with for probably the duration of your career, I think, if they're

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a good mentor.

464
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So that's a really important aspect.

465
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Absolutely.

466
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:21,100
Absolutely.

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And Stella, if you don't mind, what about someone who says, holy cow, I owe so much

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money.

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Like, is this a viable career?

470
00:33:30,420 --> 00:33:31,420
I think so.

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00:33:31,420 --> 00:33:37,460
And I think that recently there has actually been more programs that will pay for your

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educational expenses, at least for medical school in that sense.

473
00:33:41,540 --> 00:33:47,940
I was lucky because I had all of my med school loans essentially paid for by the NIH because

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I stayed in research.

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And that wasn't the reason why I stayed in research, but there are those opportunities.

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00:33:55,060 --> 00:34:01,060
And I think in the end, we do come out with a fair amount of debt when you go to medical

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school.

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But I think that over time, you pay that down.

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And I think in general, we make a significant enough salary that you should choose to do

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something you really want to do and not worry about the debt because it will over time seem

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like a smaller and smaller issue.

482
00:34:22,580 --> 00:34:24,020
Thank you, Stella.

483
00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:26,620
I really appreciate you speaking to that.

484
00:34:26,620 --> 00:34:29,700
So everyone, you heard Dr. Chow.

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00:34:29,700 --> 00:34:33,120
Don't let debt be the driving factor for your career decision.

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00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,200
You want to do something you love and then you figure out how to make everything else

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00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:38,940
work and it will work.

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00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:39,940
You can make it happen.

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You're an innovative person.

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00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:43,260
You've come this far in your career.

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00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:44,880
You can make hard things happen.

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00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,980
So definitely if you want to consider this career or you're in the process and think

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you have quitting, don't quit.

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You have the capacity to succeed.

495
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:56,540
So Stella, I want to thank you for being on the show.

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Thank you for your words of wisdom.

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And it just was a fantastic, fantastic time.

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And I want to thank you for your time.

499
00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:04,100
Thanks for the invitation.

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All right, everyone.

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We'll see you next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.

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00:35:16,620 --> 00:35:21,980
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast where academic

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00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:27,300
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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have a mentor.

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00:35:28,780 --> 00:35:34,740
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:36,620
Someone else needs to hear it.

507
00:35:36,620 --> 00:35:40,680
So take a minute right now and share it.

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00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:46,140
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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00:35:46,140 --> 00:35:59,660
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health