1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

2
00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

3
00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

4
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

5
00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

6
00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200
program.

7
00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

9
00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

10
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

11
00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,040
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

12
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:05,040
Welcome to today's episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast.

13
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:06,400
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

14
00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:12,520
It is such a pleasure to be here today talking with you, and thank you for listening.

15
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,720
I'm excited about today's episode.

16
00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,040
I'm talking about what to do if you can't find funding.

17
00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,040
What do you do?

18
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:24,400
I mean, if you can't find funding, it's like you're dead in the water.

19
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,520
What do you do if you can't find funding?

20
00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,000
And before I get started, I want to put a plug in for academics negotiate.

21
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,920
We negotiate our academic careers so that we can build research programs that make maximum

22
00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,640
impact and allow us to thrive in our careers.

23
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:49,320
And so I invite you to please check it out on clinicianresearcherpodcast.com slash negotiate

24
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:56,400
so that you can learn more and sign up for our next cohort of academics negotiate.

25
00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:57,400
All right.

26
00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,520
I'm talking about what if you can't find funding.

27
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:06,440
And I will tell you that this question comes to me from a recent talk that I gave at the

28
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:07,600
University of Chicago.

29
00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,280
And somebody asked the question.

30
00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,960
It was such a powerful question, too.

31
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:17,040
She talked about how she really wanted to do research in a certain area that's clearly

32
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,040
underrepresented in research, and they couldn't find funding.

33
00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,520
And because they couldn't find funding, she abandoned that area, and now she does cancer

34
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,600
research or something like that.

35
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,440
Everybody does cancer research because that's funding cancer research.

36
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:34,500
If you're a cancer researcher, this is not against you.

37
00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:39,040
This is just saying that there are places that are more funded than others.

38
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:46,520
So I have a similar experience of when I was applying for grants, my first set of kind

39
00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,560
of early grant applications and those were workshopping grants.

40
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,760
And really, I was focused on a very specific area of cardiology.

41
00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:55,760
And I am a hematologist.

42
00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:01,280
And it's a long story as to how hematologists got involved in cardiology research.

43
00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,880
But there I was.

44
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:10,600
And I kept submitting and resubmitting and resubmitting, and I literally got not one

45
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,400
funding opportunity come out of that.

46
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:19,800
And ultimately, I abandoned the space and I work on something else now, which has been

47
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:20,800
funded.

48
00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,760
Interestingly, it's been funded.

49
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,760
But it is real.

50
00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,880
When you can't find money to support your project, then it's like your project's not

51
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,440
going to move forward because you need to be funded.

52
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,680
And if you can't find the funding, then it's like, you know, what's the point, right?

53
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:37,680
What is the point?

54
00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:44,200
And so I want to talk to you today about five things that you should ask when you can't

55
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,840
find funding, five questions to ask.

56
00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,600
These are important questions and they reflect young questions.

57
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:55,120
So you really got to sit, sit with these questions and think about what the answers are.

58
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,200
You do need to answer them.

59
00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:00,600
You do need to answer them.

60
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:01,600
Okay.

61
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:07,000
Question number one, whose idea are you selling?

62
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,000
Let's ask that question again.

63
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,880
Whose idea are you selling?

64
00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:20,000
Now this question is so important because let's, for example, say that you are interested

65
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,520
in sickle cell disease and that's the area in which you really want to make an impact.

66
00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:29,000
And you found this amazing mentor who's supporting your work in sickle cell disease.

67
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,000
They're doing all this great work in sickle cell disease and they have all these wonderful

68
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,400
ideas and they have the preliminary data for this.

69
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,120
And so you've taken that preliminary data, you built it into a grant and you're submitting

70
00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,400
it and you're not getting any hits.

71
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:48,160
And when you ask yourself, it may be in sickle cell and you're interested in sickle cell,

72
00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,840
but the specific idea, whose idea is it?

73
00:04:51,840 --> 00:04:53,740
Whose idea are you selling?

74
00:04:53,740 --> 00:04:56,640
Is it somebody else's idea?

75
00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,600
Very hard to sell somebody else's idea.

76
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,200
Or is it your idea?

77
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,920
Hmm, much, much easier to sell your own idea.

78
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,960
And I hear people telling me, that's ridiculous.

79
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,680
Of course I don't have my own idea to sell.

80
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,160
I don't have an idea yet.

81
00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,720
But is it your idea?

82
00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:19,380
And the reason it needs, absolutely needs to be your idea is because of how hard it

83
00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:21,640
is to sell somebody else's dream.

84
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:22,640
It's so hard.

85
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:27,080
I mean, I know some people try and some people are especially gifted at selling somebody

86
00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:28,600
else's dream.

87
00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,160
Most of us have been doing that for much of our lives.

88
00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,800
But it is very hard.

89
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,240
And selling your own dream is more important, is easier.

90
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,440
It just flows off the page.

91
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,240
And here's the thing, sometimes you can take somebody else's dream and make it yours.

92
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:50,160
And it's possible, you know, if you're interested in sickle cell disease research, they're interested

93
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,600
in sickle cell disease research, the topics align, you're like, well, I can find this

94
00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:55,880
interesting.

95
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,400
You make it your own.

96
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,980
If you can make it your own and it becomes yours, okay, then you can sell it.

97
00:06:02,980 --> 00:06:05,160
Because now you're not selling somebody else's idea.

98
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,560
It may have originated with somebody else.

99
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:08,680
But now you've made it your own.

100
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,320
And because you've made it your own, you can now sell it.

101
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,880
But if it's not yet yours, if you haven't made it yours, or you can't even find a way

102
00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,000
to make it yours, or you care about it so little you can't make it yours, it's going

103
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,880
to be really, really hard to sell.

104
00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,160
Really, really hard.

105
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:31,760
The best ideas, the best grant proposals are the ones in which you are so excited about

106
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:32,760
the topic.

107
00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:33,760
They really are the best.

108
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,120
They kind of write themselves.

109
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,120
And I know that's not entirely true.

110
00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:39,340
Nothing writes itself.

111
00:06:39,340 --> 00:06:41,000
You write the grant.

112
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,960
But when you're excited about a topic, when you understand the why, the genesis, the importance

113
00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:51,000
of a topic, the way you write about it is so different from when you have to check three

114
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,800
or four times with the originator of the idea of what they meant when they said do this.

115
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:57,600
It's so different.

116
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,320
When you have an idea that's just flowing and looking for the information that helps

117
00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:10,360
you support the idea on paper is so fun and exciting, it changes the way you write.

118
00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,160
And therefore, the first question you're going to ask if you're struggling to find funding

119
00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,040
is whose idea are you selling?

120
00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:18,480
Whose idea is it?

121
00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:19,980
Is it yours?

122
00:07:19,980 --> 00:07:24,320
Because if it's not your idea, if you've not taken it and owned it, you're going to have

123
00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:25,560
a hard time selling it.

124
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,720
To be honest, and please don't take this personally, I hope you never can sell it well.

125
00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,840
Because the only idea that you should be selling is your own idea.

126
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,600
Because your idea needs to see the light of day.

127
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,000
Somebody else's idea, you know, either they're going to do it or they'll find somebody else

128
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:42,000
to do it.

129
00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,960
So your idea, if you don't sell your own ideas, who's going to sell them for you?

130
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:53,560
If you're not sold on your own idea, who's going to sell it for you?

131
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,920
And so I hope that you find your own idea, fall in love with an idea that you love so

132
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,400
that you can sell it.

133
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,960
Okay, that's number one.

134
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,920
Number two, ask yourself, if I was the funder, why would I fund this work?

135
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,760
Hmm, this is a really important question.

136
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,120
Why would I fund this work if I was the funder?

137
00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:21,520
If I'm the funder, I have a hundred grants before me and all these grants are equally

138
00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:22,520
good.

139
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,500
What is it about my grant that I would fund?

140
00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:28,060
Would you fund your work?

141
00:08:28,060 --> 00:08:32,160
Would you actually, if you had like three million dollars and you're like, I can give

142
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:37,480
three hundred thousand to this project, would you fund the work?

143
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,960
And if you wouldn't fund the work, why would you not fund the work?

144
00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:46,480
And this question is important because it starts to show you what it is about your work

145
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,840
that's actually exciting to you.

146
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,520
Now I didn't say what it is about your work that's exciting.

147
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:57,440
Well, there's so much about work that can be exciting, but is it exciting to you?

148
00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:04,080
If it's not exciting to you, it's hard to find the space in the work that somebody will

149
00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,440
want to fund because you are not excited about it.

150
00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:13,000
And it does kind of harken back to the first question of whose idea are you selling?

151
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,400
It really kind of number two is about why are you excited about your work?

152
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,040
How would you fund your own work?

153
00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:20,560
Would you fund your own work?

154
00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:29,080
And if you find yourself saying, honestly, I would not, then it's time to stop and rethink

155
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:30,800
why you're doing the work that you're doing.

156
00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,720
You're like, well, my mentor, my mentor gave me this work.

157
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:35,320
And you know he's the best mentor in the world.

158
00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:36,320
Oh, yes, he is.

159
00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,400
But this idea doesn't ignite your fire.

160
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:40,400
And so you're going to struggle.

161
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,000
You're going to struggle to sell it.

162
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:47,680
You're going to struggle to find somebody else to agree with you that it's worth funding.

163
00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:51,880
And so if you can't answer the question, if you were the funder, why would you fund the

164
00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,540
work?

165
00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:55,220
Then you should go back.

166
00:09:55,220 --> 00:09:59,800
You should go back to the drawing board and figure out how do you create the kind of work

167
00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,200
that you yourself would be willing to put money on the table to fund?

168
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:08,760
And this is really important because the reality is you are funding your own work until somebody

169
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,920
else ponies up money to fund it for you.

170
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:11,920
You are.

171
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,760
Who's paying for the time that you're spending in the lab or in your program to move your

172
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,800
research forward?

173
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:23,760
You're definitely doing a lot more than your salary would agree that you're doing, right?

174
00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,800
You're doing so much more.

175
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:27,360
You're investing time.

176
00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:28,360
You're there in the morning.

177
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,040
You're there in the evening.

178
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:31,800
On the weekends, you're distracted.

179
00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,640
You're doing the work all the time.

180
00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:37,080
You're funding yourself.

181
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:42,640
So if you now had to write a check to yourself, why would you do it?

182
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:47,720
And if you can't answer that question, it's time to go back and figure out how you can

183
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:53,560
get yourself doing work that you would actually personally want to fund.

184
00:10:53,560 --> 00:10:55,160
Question number three.

185
00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:00,640
If you were a news reporter who came across the findings of your research when it finally

186
00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:05,920
reaches fruition, when it finally reaches maturity, why would they put your research

187
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,760
on the front page news?

188
00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,520
What is newsworthy about the work that you're doing?

189
00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,500
And I may hear you say right now, it doesn't have to be newsworthy.

190
00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:18,840
Everything doesn't have to be exciting.

191
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,260
But where is it going?

192
00:11:20,260 --> 00:11:25,280
It may not be exciting in the things you're mixing together in a pipette.

193
00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:31,920
It may not be exciting in the cells that you're culturing in the cell culture room.

194
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:37,680
But why, ultimately, will it be front page news when everything comes together like it's

195
00:11:37,680 --> 00:11:42,840
supposed to, maybe seven, 10, 8, 20 years from now?

196
00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,560
What is it about your work that would make you say this deserves front page attention?

197
00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:51,560
And if you can't figure that out, then think again.

198
00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:54,080
Is this work you really want to be doing?

199
00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:59,800
Because here's one of the challenges that I see, is that people are excited about research

200
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,440
because they want to make an impact.

201
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,320
And then all of a sudden, when they start working with mentors, they're working on projects

202
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,640
and they can't even see its future.

203
00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,840
And it doesn't mean the project doesn't have a future.

204
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,600
It doesn't mean the project is not newsworthy.

205
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,720
It's that they've not received the communication of the newsworthiness of the project.

206
00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,960
Any project that you're unexcited about, it's because you don't get it.

207
00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:25,720
And you've got to get it.

208
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,800
And if you don't get it, work to get it.

209
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,120
And if after you work to get it, you still don't get it, abandon it.

210
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:33,880
Please do.

211
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,160
Because you came as a clinician researcher, you're different.

212
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,120
You want to make an impact in the lives of your patients.

213
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,860
You have taken care of patients.

214
00:12:43,860 --> 00:12:46,560
You brought some back from the brink of death.

215
00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:49,760
Some you have saved on their way to the brink of death.

216
00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,920
You've made impact in the lives of your patients.

217
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:54,880
You've seen what clinical care can do.

218
00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,840
That's why you're excited about research.

219
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:02,040
And you've also seen what clinical care fails to do.

220
00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:08,200
That's why you're excited about research as a vehicle to help you solve problems.

221
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:09,200
You're excited.

222
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:13,740
And the excitement you have is worthy of the front page news because you know how powerful

223
00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:18,000
it is, how many lives it will save, how much transformation it will bring.

224
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:23,040
So don't get into a situation where you're doing things that are mundane and you can't

225
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,360
connect them to your why because it is too hard.

226
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,520
It is too hard to build a career based on the recommendations of others and it doesn't

227
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:32,520
light your fire.

228
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,520
It's too hard.

229
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:34,520
Don't do it.

230
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,240
This research career is not an easy thing.

231
00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:37,800
It's not a walk in the park.

232
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:38,800
It takes time.

233
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:39,800
It takes energy.

234
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:40,800
It takes investment.

235
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,800
And if you're not excited about the work you're doing, somebody else may be excited about

236
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:52,320
it, but if you're not, then reconsider if this is the work you want to do and ask how

237
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:57,000
do I get from where I am right now this thing that doesn't make me excited to the thing

238
00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,240
that really lights my fire.

239
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:05,900
If you are a news reporter, why would you put your research on the front page news?

240
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:09,600
Question number four is who cares about what you do?

241
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,520
Now this is not the who cares so what question.

242
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,040
I'm sure that's important, but that's not what I'm talking about.

243
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:16,040
I'm like who cares?

244
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,760
Who wants you to move your work forward?

245
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,000
Who's the person who's looking for you?

246
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,880
Who is that person?

247
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,840
Who's the person who says we absolutely want to fund this research?

248
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,600
This is so important.

249
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,620
Maybe you're working in Alzheimer's disease.

250
00:14:30,620 --> 00:14:32,640
Who cares about Alzheimer's research?

251
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,320
Who cares about it?

252
00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:40,480
And that's important for you to answer because many times we are knocking at the door of

253
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:42,800
funders who don't care.

254
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,520
And yes, that funder may be NIH, but if you are knocking at the door of a funder who couldn't

255
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:53,360
care less about the work you're doing, stop knocking and start looking for the door of

256
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,540
the funder who wants to fund what you're doing.

257
00:14:56,540 --> 00:15:02,040
In any research life, in any research career, there is a funder who cares about what you're

258
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,300
doing.

259
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:08,400
And I know it's true for you as a clinician because you are doing work you care about.

260
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,200
You're doing work that the patient cares about.

261
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:18,000
You are doing work where the outcomes are going to improve somebody's life.

262
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,720
You care, somebody else cares too.

263
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,160
Who is that person?

264
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,280
And it doesn't matter how many times people tell you, oh, you should apply here.

265
00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:27,560
This funder has the most money.

266
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,480
It doesn't matter how much the funder has.

267
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,560
If they don't care about the work you do, they're not going to fund you.

268
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:39,840
And so many times we invest a lot of energy trying to tailor our work to the funder who

269
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,000
doesn't care about the work we're doing.

270
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,920
How do you know what work that they fund?

271
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:50,360
Go look, an NIH reporter if it's NIH, go look at their website and see what they funded

272
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:51,360
in the past.

273
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:57,440
And if there is no relationship between what they funded in the past and what you're doing,

274
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,200
reconsider your application.

275
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:05,520
Many times we're submitting and resubmitting and resubmitting applications and we should

276
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,000
do that because as researchers that's what we do.

277
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:12,560
Sometimes we're resubmitting and resubmitting to people who will never fund the work we

278
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:13,560
do.

279
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,560
And they're like, yeah, this was responsive.

280
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,760
However, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, new series of concerns.

281
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,480
And you put it down to, well, it was a different set of reviewers.

282
00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,920
But what it is is just that they don't really care for your work.

283
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:27,920
They don't.

284
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,960
You're like, oh, I'm really focused on health disparities, but these people in this particular

285
00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,640
funding agency actually don't care about health disparities.

286
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:37,640
But who does?

287
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,720
There is a funder who does.

288
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:41,540
Who are they?

289
00:16:41,540 --> 00:16:42,880
So that's an important question to ask.

290
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:46,760
And when you ask also who cares about what you do, you've got to be open minded about

291
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,280
the answer.

292
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,040
It may not be a government funder.

293
00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,200
Maybe it's an industry funder.

294
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:53,200
Ooh.

295
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:58,440
And you've been hearing all this bad rap about how industry is not to be, you're not supposed

296
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,080
to receive industry funding because then you have to declare this conflict.

297
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,960
Or you're like, well, you know, foundations, we don't really care about foundations because

298
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,760
they don't really have good overhead.

299
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:13,840
Your job as a clinician researcher is to fund your program.

300
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,120
Your institution's job is to figure out how to pay the bills.

301
00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:19,120
OK.

302
00:17:19,120 --> 00:17:20,800
Ideally, they both overlap.

303
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,400
You know, you get money from a funding agency that also helps the institution to pay your

304
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:26,400
bills, right?

305
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,600
Because it's about the bills you generate as a researcher.

306
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,920
It's great when you can do that and you should work towards that.

307
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,400
But don't avoid funding sources because they don't look lucrative from an institutional

308
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:39,400
standpoint.

309
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:40,400
Don't do that.

310
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,280
Your research project, your research program needs to move forward.

311
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,960
And you start where the resources and the opportunities are.

312
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,880
Don't blacklist any funders.

313
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,720
Don't say we don't get take money from those people.

314
00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,160
Are they interested in the work you're doing?

315
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:54,160
Do they care?

316
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:55,160
OK.

317
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,960
How can you align your work with what they care about so that you can get money out of

318
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:00,960
them?

319
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,600
You move your research program forward.

320
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,680
And yes, to some extent, it's controversial.

321
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,560
I think they're in some institutions where it's like NIH funding or nothing.

322
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,320
But if the funder doesn't care about what you care about, then it means you have to

323
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:15,480
twist and turn to make the funder care.

324
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,360
And then you move away from what you actually care about.

325
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,120
Is that what you want?

326
00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,960
Don't do what you don't want.

327
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,480
Don't do what you don't want.

328
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,040
OK.

329
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:28,040
That was number four.

330
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,520
Who cares about what you do?

331
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:37,240
Number five is how can you figure out what part of your work they care the most about?

332
00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,880
How can you figure out what part of your work they care the most about?

333
00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:43,400
There's some funders who are very explicit.

334
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,640
They'll say we do not fund health services research.

335
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:51,240
There's some funders whose priority it is for just basic science research.

336
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,600
There are some funders whose priority it is just for translational.

337
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,000
So you may be working in the topic area, but if your work is not translational, they don't

338
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:00,960
want to fund you.

339
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,180
You need to know about that.

340
00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:07,480
Because what you might do is say, oh, you want this work to be translational?

341
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,600
Oh, I have a translational collaborator.

342
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,880
Let's do the translational work with a collaborator and let's propose the grant.

343
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:14,880
Perfect.

344
00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:15,880
Great for you.

345
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,680
There's always a way to address it, but is it the way in which you want to address it?

346
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:25,380
And so when you find the funder who cares about what you do, then you have the opportunity

347
00:19:25,380 --> 00:19:30,280
to ask what part of your work do they actually care the most about and to be able to tailor

348
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:34,360
your work to that part of what they care the most about.

349
00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:35,520
And you can do that.

350
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,360
You can do that when you know.

351
00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:41,560
And that's why people talk about when it comes to, for example, the NIH reaching out to a

352
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,040
program officer, do they care?

353
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,240
You get to know by talking with them.

354
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:47,960
They're not going to tell you not to submit.

355
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,480
They're hardly going to tell you not to submit.

356
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,160
But as you're talking with them, you get a sense of what they prioritize, what they find

357
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:56,820
to be important.

358
00:19:56,820 --> 00:20:01,760
And then it is important then it's left to you to go back and say, well, this is what

359
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,600
I'm working on.

360
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,020
And this is the aspect of the work that they're most impressed with.

361
00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:11,680
Who can help me emphasize that part of the work so that the work moves forward?

362
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:12,680
And you can do that.

363
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:13,680
Or you can say, no.

364
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,200
I don't want to emphasize that part of the work.

365
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,600
I'm going to look for a different funder.

366
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:18,600
You could do that.

367
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:23,960
But when you get information, it helps you decide how to move forward.

368
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,680
Without information, very hard to decide how to move forward.

369
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,760
So number five is how can you figure out what part of your work they care the most about?

370
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,080
And then you can decide what you're going to do with that answer.

371
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,080
OK.

372
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,760
So the five questions you need to ask when you can't find funding is number one, whose

373
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,400
idea are you selling?

374
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,320
If it's not your idea, figure out a way to make it yours or throw it away and find your

375
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:44,800
own idea.

376
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,800
Number two, if you were the funder, would you fund your work?

377
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,840
And if you wouldn't fund your own work, please don't ask somebody else to.

378
00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:56,520
Find work that you personally want to fund and then see if you can get somebody else

379
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:57,760
to fund it.

380
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,960
You figure out that you're going to fund it first and then see who else can help you.

381
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,320
Number three, if you are a news reporter, why would you put your research on the front

382
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:06,800
page news?

383
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:08,840
What is newsworthy about the work you do?

384
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,480
What is exciting about the work you do?

385
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,040
Number four, who cares about what you do?

386
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,640
Align yourself with the funders that actually care about the work you do and stop knocking

387
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:23,360
so hard at the door of funders who couldn't care less about the work you do.

388
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:27,400
And number five, how can you figure out what part of your work they care the most about?

389
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,000
And when you can figure out what part of your work they care the most about, you can decide

390
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,040
if you're going to emphasize that part, if you're going to go somewhere else, or if you're

391
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,840
going to find someone who's going to help you emphasize that part well.

392
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:37,840
All right.

393
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:42,320
So there are five things, five questions to ask when you can't find funding.

394
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:43,320
Somebody needs to hear this episode.

395
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,320
I'm going to ask you, please find just one clinician researcher or one clinician who's

396
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:53,800
contemplating research and share this with them because more of us need to find funding

397
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,600
and funding exists for us if we could just stop knocking at the doors of people who don't

398
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,640
want to fund us and find the people who actually do.

399
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,560
It's been a pleasure to talk with you today.

400
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:14,360
I look forward to talking with you again the next time.

401
00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:19,680
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic

402
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,960
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

403
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,480
have a mentor.

404
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:32,600
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

405
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,360
Someone else needs to hear it.

406
00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:38,400
So take a minute right now and share it.

407
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,860
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

408
00:22:43,860 --> 00:23:04,200
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.