Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
program.
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
Welcome to today's episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast.
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
It is such a pleasure to be here today talking with you, and thank you for listening.
I'm excited about today's episode.
I'm talking about what to do if you can't find funding.
What do you do?
I mean, if you can't find funding, it's like you're dead in the water.
What do you do if you can't find funding?
And before I get started, I want to put a plug in for academics negotiate.
We negotiate our academic careers so that we can build research programs that make maximum
impact and allow us to thrive in our careers.
And so I invite you to please check it out on clinicianresearcherpodcast.com slash negotiate
so that you can learn more and sign up for our next cohort of academics negotiate.
All right.
I'm talking about what if you can't find funding.
And I will tell you that this question comes to me from a recent talk that I gave at the
University of Chicago.
And somebody asked the question.
It was such a powerful question, too.
She talked about how she really wanted to do research in a certain area that's clearly
underrepresented in research, and they couldn't find funding.
And because they couldn't find funding, she abandoned that area, and now she does cancer
research or something like that.
Everybody does cancer research because that's funding cancer research.
If you're a cancer researcher, this is not against you.
This is just saying that there are places that are more funded than others.
So I have a similar experience of when I was applying for grants, my first set of kind
of early grant applications and those were workshopping grants.
And really, I was focused on a very specific area of cardiology.
And I am a hematologist.
And it's a long story as to how hematologists got involved in cardiology research.
But there I was.
And I kept submitting and resubmitting and resubmitting, and I literally got not one
funding opportunity come out of that.
And ultimately, I abandoned the space and I work on something else now, which has been
funded.
Interestingly, it's been funded.
But it is real.
When you can't find money to support your project, then it's like your project's not
going to move forward because you need to be funded.
And if you can't find the funding, then it's like, you know, what's the point, right?
What is the point?
And so I want to talk to you today about five things that you should ask when you can't
find funding, five questions to ask.
These are important questions and they reflect young questions.
So you really got to sit, sit with these questions and think about what the answers are.
You do need to answer them.
Okay.
Question number one, whose idea are you selling?
Let's ask that question again.
Whose idea are you selling?
Now this question is so important because let's, for example, say that you are interested
in sickle cell disease and that's the area in which you really want to make an impact.
And you found this amazing mentor who's supporting your work in sickle cell disease.
They're doing all this great work in sickle cell disease and they have all these wonderful
ideas and they have the preliminary data for this.
And so you've taken that preliminary data, you built it into a grant and you're submitting
it and you're not getting any hits.
And when you ask yourself, it may be in sickle cell and you're interested in sickle cell,
but the specific idea, whose idea is it?
Whose idea are you selling?
Is it somebody else's idea?
Very hard to sell somebody else's idea.
Or is it your idea?
Hmm, much, much easier to sell your own idea.
And I hear people telling me, that's ridiculous.
Of course I don't have my own idea to sell.
I don't have an idea yet.
But is it your idea?
And the reason it needs, absolutely needs to be your idea is because of how hard it
is to sell somebody else's dream.
It's so hard.
I mean, I know some people try and some people are especially gifted at selling somebody
else's dream.
Most of us have been doing that for much of our lives.
But it is very hard.
And selling your own dream is more important, is easier.
It just flows off the page.
And here's the thing, sometimes you can take somebody else's dream and make it yours.
And it's possible, you know, if you're interested in sickle cell disease research, they're interested
in sickle cell disease research, the topics align, you're like, well, I can find this
interesting.
You make it your own.
If you can make it your own and it becomes yours, okay, then you can sell it.
Because now you're not selling somebody else's idea.
It may have originated with somebody else.
But now you've made it your own.
And because you've made it your own, you can now sell it.
But if it's not yet yours, if you haven't made it yours, or you can't even find a way
to make it yours, or you care about it so little you can't make it yours, it's going
to be really, really hard to sell.
Really, really hard.
The best ideas, the best grant proposals are the ones in which you are so excited about
the topic.
They really are the best.
They kind of write themselves.
And I know that's not entirely true.
Nothing writes itself.
You write the grant.
But when you're excited about a topic, when you understand the why, the genesis, the importance
of a topic, the way you write about it is so different from when you have to check three
or four times with the originator of the idea of what they meant when they said do this.
It's so different.
When you have an idea that's just flowing and looking for the information that helps
you support the idea on paper is so fun and exciting, it changes the way you write.
And therefore, the first question you're going to ask if you're struggling to find funding
is whose idea are you selling?
Whose idea is it?
Is it yours?
Because if it's not your idea, if you've not taken it and owned it, you're going to have
a hard time selling it.
To be honest, and please don't take this personally, I hope you never can sell it well.
Because the only idea that you should be selling is your own idea.
Because your idea needs to see the light of day.
Somebody else's idea, you know, either they're going to do it or they'll find somebody else
to do it.
So your idea, if you don't sell your own ideas, who's going to sell them for you?
If you're not sold on your own idea, who's going to sell it for you?
And so I hope that you find your own idea, fall in love with an idea that you love so
that you can sell it.
Okay, that's number one.
Number two, ask yourself, if I was the funder, why would I fund this work?
Hmm, this is a really important question.
Why would I fund this work if I was the funder?
If I'm the funder, I have a hundred grants before me and all these grants are equally
good.
What is it about my grant that I would fund?
Would you fund your work?
Would you actually, if you had like three million dollars and you're like, I can give
three hundred thousand to this project, would you fund the work?
And if you wouldn't fund the work, why would you not fund the work?
And this question is important because it starts to show you what it is about your work
that's actually exciting to you.
Now I didn't say what it is about your work that's exciting.
Well, there's so much about work that can be exciting, but is it exciting to you?
If it's not exciting to you, it's hard to find the space in the work that somebody will
want to fund because you are not excited about it.
And it does kind of harken back to the first question of whose idea are you selling?
It really kind of number two is about why are you excited about your work?
How would you fund your own work?
Would you fund your own work?
And if you find yourself saying, honestly, I would not, then it's time to stop and rethink
why you're doing the work that you're doing.
You're like, well, my mentor, my mentor gave me this work.
And you know he's the best mentor in the world.
Oh, yes, he is.
But this idea doesn't ignite your fire.
And so you're going to struggle.
You're going to struggle to sell it.
You're going to struggle to find somebody else to agree with you that it's worth funding.
And so if you can't answer the question, if you were the funder, why would you fund the
work?
Then you should go back.
You should go back to the drawing board and figure out how do you create the kind of work
that you yourself would be willing to put money on the table to fund?
And this is really important because the reality is you are funding your own work until somebody
else ponies up money to fund it for you.
You are.
Who's paying for the time that you're spending in the lab or in your program to move your
research forward?
You're definitely doing a lot more than your salary would agree that you're doing, right?
You're doing so much more.
You're investing time.
You're there in the morning.
You're there in the evening.
On the weekends, you're distracted.
You're doing the work all the time.
You're funding yourself.
So if you now had to write a check to yourself, why would you do it?
And if you can't answer that question, it's time to go back and figure out how you can
get yourself doing work that you would actually personally want to fund.
Question number three.
If you were a news reporter who came across the findings of your research when it finally
reaches fruition, when it finally reaches maturity, why would they put your research
on the front page news?
What is newsworthy about the work that you're doing?
And I may hear you say right now, it doesn't have to be newsworthy.
Everything doesn't have to be exciting.
But where is it going?
It may not be exciting in the things you're mixing together in a pipette.
It may not be exciting in the cells that you're culturing in the cell culture room.
But why, ultimately, will it be front page news when everything comes together like it's
supposed to, maybe seven, 10, 8, 20 years from now?
What is it about your work that would make you say this deserves front page attention?
And if you can't figure that out, then think again.
Is this work you really want to be doing?
Because here's one of the challenges that I see, is that people are excited about research
because they want to make an impact.
And then all of a sudden, when they start working with mentors, they're working on projects
and they can't even see its future.
And it doesn't mean the project doesn't have a future.
It doesn't mean the project is not newsworthy.
It's that they've not received the communication of the newsworthiness of the project.
Any project that you're unexcited about, it's because you don't get it.
And you've got to get it.
And if you don't get it, work to get it.
And if after you work to get it, you still don't get it, abandon it.
Please do.
Because you came as a clinician researcher, you're different.
You want to make an impact in the lives of your patients.
You have taken care of patients.
You brought some back from the brink of death.
Some you have saved on their way to the brink of death.
You've made impact in the lives of your patients.
You've seen what clinical care can do.
That's why you're excited about research.
And you've also seen what clinical care fails to do.
That's why you're excited about research as a vehicle to help you solve problems.
You're excited.
And the excitement you have is worthy of the front page news because you know how powerful
it is, how many lives it will save, how much transformation it will bring.
So don't get into a situation where you're doing things that are mundane and you can't
connect them to your why because it is too hard.
It is too hard to build a career based on the recommendations of others and it doesn't
light your fire.
It's too hard.
Don't do it.
This research career is not an easy thing.
It's not a walk in the park.
It takes time.
It takes energy.
It takes investment.
And if you're not excited about the work you're doing, somebody else may be excited about
it, but if you're not, then reconsider if this is the work you want to do and ask how
do I get from where I am right now this thing that doesn't make me excited to the thing
that really lights my fire.
If you are a news reporter, why would you put your research on the front page news?
Question number four is who cares about what you do?
Now this is not the who cares so what question.
I'm sure that's important, but that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm like who cares?
Who wants you to move your work forward?
Who's the person who's looking for you?
Who is that person?
Who's the person who says we absolutely want to fund this research?
This is so important.
Maybe you're working in Alzheimer's disease.
Who cares about Alzheimer's research?
Who cares about it?
And that's important for you to answer because many times we are knocking at the door of
funders who don't care.
And yes, that funder may be NIH, but if you are knocking at the door of a funder who couldn't
care less about the work you're doing, stop knocking and start looking for the door of
the funder who wants to fund what you're doing.
In any research life, in any research career, there is a funder who cares about what you're
doing.
And I know it's true for you as a clinician because you are doing work you care about.
You're doing work that the patient cares about.
You are doing work where the outcomes are going to improve somebody's life.
You care, somebody else cares too.
Who is that person?
And it doesn't matter how many times people tell you, oh, you should apply here.
This funder has the most money.
It doesn't matter how much the funder has.
If they don't care about the work you do, they're not going to fund you.
And so many times we invest a lot of energy trying to tailor our work to the funder who
doesn't care about the work we're doing.
How do you know what work that they fund?
Go look, an NIH reporter if it's NIH, go look at their website and see what they funded
in the past.
And if there is no relationship between what they funded in the past and what you're doing,
reconsider your application.
Many times we're submitting and resubmitting and resubmitting applications and we should
do that because as researchers that's what we do.
Sometimes we're resubmitting and resubmitting to people who will never fund the work we
do.
And they're like, yeah, this was responsive.
However, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, new series of concerns.
And you put it down to, well, it was a different set of reviewers.
But what it is is just that they don't really care for your work.
They don't.
You're like, oh, I'm really focused on health disparities, but these people in this particular
funding agency actually don't care about health disparities.
But who does?
There is a funder who does.
Who are they?
So that's an important question to ask.
And when you ask also who cares about what you do, you've got to be open minded about
the answer.
It may not be a government funder.
Maybe it's an industry funder.
Ooh.
And you've been hearing all this bad rap about how industry is not to be, you're not supposed
to receive industry funding because then you have to declare this conflict.
Or you're like, well, you know, foundations, we don't really care about foundations because
they don't really have good overhead.
Your job as a clinician researcher is to fund your program.
Your institution's job is to figure out how to pay the bills.
OK.
Ideally, they both overlap.
You know, you get money from a funding agency that also helps the institution to pay your
bills, right?
Because it's about the bills you generate as a researcher.
It's great when you can do that and you should work towards that.
But don't avoid funding sources because they don't look lucrative from an institutional
standpoint.
Don't do that.
Your research project, your research program needs to move forward.
And you start where the resources and the opportunities are.
Don't blacklist any funders.
Don't say we don't get take money from those people.
Are they interested in the work you're doing?
Do they care?
OK.
How can you align your work with what they care about so that you can get money out of
them?
You move your research program forward.
And yes, to some extent, it's controversial.
I think they're in some institutions where it's like NIH funding or nothing.
But if the funder doesn't care about what you care about, then it means you have to
twist and turn to make the funder care.
And then you move away from what you actually care about.
Is that what you want?
Don't do what you don't want.
OK.
That was number four.
Who cares about what you do?
Number five is how can you figure out what part of your work they care the most about?
How can you figure out what part of your work they care the most about?
There's some funders who are very explicit.
They'll say we do not fund health services research.
There's some funders whose priority it is for just basic science research.
There are some funders whose priority it is just for translational.
So you may be working in the topic area, but if your work is not translational, they don't
want to fund you.
You need to know about that.
Because what you might do is say, oh, you want this work to be translational?
Oh, I have a translational collaborator.
Let's do the translational work with a collaborator and let's propose the grant.
Perfect.
Great for you.
There's always a way to address it, but is it the way in which you want to address it?
And so when you find the funder who cares about what you do, then you have the opportunity
to ask what part of your work do they actually care the most about and to be able to tailor
your work to that part of what they care the most about.
And you can do that.
You can do that when you know.
And that's why people talk about when it comes to, for example, the NIH reaching out to a
program officer, do they care?
You get to know by talking with them.
They're not going to tell you not to submit.
They're hardly going to tell you not to submit.
But as you're talking with them, you get a sense of what they prioritize, what they find
to be important.
And then it is important then it's left to you to go back and say, well, this is what
I'm working on.
And this is the aspect of the work that they're most impressed with.
Who can help me emphasize that part of the work so that the work moves forward?
And you can do that.
Or you can say, no.
I don't want to emphasize that part of the work.
I'm going to look for a different funder.
You could do that.
But when you get information, it helps you decide how to move forward.
Without information, very hard to decide how to move forward.
So number five is how can you figure out what part of your work they care the most about?
And then you can decide what you're going to do with that answer.
OK.
So the five questions you need to ask when you can't find funding is number one, whose
idea are you selling?
If it's not your idea, figure out a way to make it yours or throw it away and find your
own idea.
Number two, if you were the funder, would you fund your work?
And if you wouldn't fund your own work, please don't ask somebody else to.
Find work that you personally want to fund and then see if you can get somebody else
to fund it.
You figure out that you're going to fund it first and then see who else can help you.
Number three, if you are a news reporter, why would you put your research on the front
page news?
What is newsworthy about the work you do?
What is exciting about the work you do?
Number four, who cares about what you do?
Align yourself with the funders that actually care about the work you do and stop knocking
so hard at the door of funders who couldn't care less about the work you do.
And number five, how can you figure out what part of your work they care the most about?
And when you can figure out what part of your work they care the most about, you can decide
if you're going to emphasize that part, if you're going to go somewhere else, or if you're
going to find someone who's going to help you emphasize that part well.
All right.
So there are five things, five questions to ask when you can't find funding.
Somebody needs to hear this episode.
I'm going to ask you, please find just one clinician researcher or one clinician who's
contemplating research and share this with them because more of us need to find funding
and funding exists for us if we could just stop knocking at the doors of people who don't
want to fund us and find the people who actually do.
It's been a pleasure to talk with you today.
I look forward to talking with you again the next time.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
have a mentor.
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