1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,180 program. 7 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,060 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:03,340 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:08,420 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and I'm super excited to have an amazing guest on the show 14 00:01:08,420 --> 00:01:11,020 today, Dr. Vikram Paralkar. 15 00:01:11,020 --> 00:01:12,540 And Vikram, I just want to thank you. 16 00:01:12,540 --> 00:01:13,540 Welcome to the show. 17 00:01:13,540 --> 00:01:15,540 Thank you for having me. 18 00:01:15,540 --> 00:01:18,700 Okay, Vikram, let's get right down to it. 19 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:21,380 How did you start on this journey? 20 00:01:21,380 --> 00:01:25,940 What led you from being a clinician to becoming a clinician scientist? 21 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:28,140 How did that happen? 22 00:01:28,140 --> 00:01:30,860 My journey, I guess my journey begins with my childhood. 23 00:01:30,860 --> 00:01:34,900 So I grew up in Mumbai, and both of my late parents were doctors. 24 00:01:34,900 --> 00:01:40,260 And my dad was a surgeon, my mom was an OB-dyne, and so I grew up very familiar with medical 25 00:01:40,260 --> 00:01:42,380 lingo around the dining table. 26 00:01:42,380 --> 00:01:47,700 And at the same time, I was also very, very interested in science and scientific experiments. 27 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:52,460 So I was always the kid who had a chemistry set or was looking at things under a blood 28 00:01:52,460 --> 00:01:56,700 cell under a microscope or dissecting algae or things like that. 29 00:01:56,700 --> 00:01:59,020 And I just loved science. 30 00:01:59,020 --> 00:02:03,540 And I also really enjoyed listening to my parents talk about medicine. 31 00:02:03,540 --> 00:02:08,700 And I grew up with the assumption that, so both of my parents were in private practice, 32 00:02:08,700 --> 00:02:12,400 they were not doing research, but I grew up with the assumption that, oh, well, every 33 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,140 academic doctor must have a little lab on the side where they just do the clinical work 34 00:02:17,140 --> 00:02:20,900 and then after the day is done, they go and do some pipetting. 35 00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:27,020 And so with this idea, naive idea in mind, that I went to medical school in Mumbai, and 36 00:02:27,020 --> 00:02:33,340 I really loved learning about medicine, anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, especially in 37 00:02:33,340 --> 00:02:34,820 molecular biology. 38 00:02:34,820 --> 00:02:41,380 But I also began to realize about midway through med school that most doctors simply don't 39 00:02:41,380 --> 00:02:43,420 do research or have the bandwidth to do research. 40 00:02:43,420 --> 00:02:47,980 I think clinical medicine itself is so all consuming that most of your day goes in taking 41 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:49,660 care of patients. 42 00:02:49,660 --> 00:02:55,900 And it was maybe about the end of my second year that I realized that I wanted to also 43 00:02:55,900 --> 00:03:00,260 have a basic science lab in addition to becoming, being a clinical scientist, in addition to 44 00:03:00,260 --> 00:03:02,540 being a clinician. 45 00:03:02,540 --> 00:03:06,940 And that's when I also realized that that kind of career track would not be possible 46 00:03:06,940 --> 00:03:11,060 in India simply because the infrastructure and funding doesn't exist over there. 47 00:03:11,060 --> 00:03:16,420 And so I began to think of coming to the United States or to the UK to pursue my studies. 48 00:03:16,420 --> 00:03:22,620 And during my medical school, I did one research rotation in the laboratory in India. 49 00:03:22,620 --> 00:03:26,180 But beyond that, I really did not have any concrete research training. 50 00:03:26,180 --> 00:03:30,300 And so when I came to the United States, I really wasn't eligible for any of the PSP 51 00:03:30,300 --> 00:03:32,880 track, the position scientist pathway tracks. 52 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,340 And so I began a categorical residency. 53 00:03:35,340 --> 00:03:39,860 I also decided specifically not to do a PhD because I felt it would just stay five to 54 00:03:39,860 --> 00:03:41,260 six years out of the schedule. 55 00:03:41,260 --> 00:03:43,820 And then I had to go back and do my clinical year. 56 00:03:43,820 --> 00:03:45,300 So I came to Temple University. 57 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:46,300 I did my residency. 58 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:48,380 Then I was a chief resident. 59 00:03:48,380 --> 00:03:50,940 And then I came to Penn for my fellowship. 60 00:03:50,940 --> 00:03:55,740 And I pleaded with all of the people I was interviewing with that I'm absolutely sure 61 00:03:55,740 --> 00:03:57,940 I want to be a physician scientist and have a lab. 62 00:03:57,940 --> 00:04:02,020 And somehow you have to believe me despite the fact that I don't have a PhD or have spent 63 00:04:02,020 --> 00:04:05,040 no more than a few months doing electives in the lab. 64 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,640 So thankfully they did believe me and I began my fellowship at Penn. 65 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,500 And in my, and so my big, now in the oncology department, hematology oncology department 66 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:14,540 here at Penn. 67 00:04:14,540 --> 00:04:18,780 And I was very drawn to leukemia and leukemia management right since the beginning. 68 00:04:18,780 --> 00:04:24,900 And in the second year of my fellowship, I joined the laboratory of Mitch Weiss, who 69 00:04:24,900 --> 00:04:26,180 was at that point at CHOP. 70 00:04:26,180 --> 00:04:28,460 He's now the head of hematology at St. Jude. 71 00:04:28,460 --> 00:04:32,140 And his lab works on transcriptional regulation and erythropoiesis. 72 00:04:32,140 --> 00:04:37,020 So I joined his lab, did my postdoctoral fellowship in his lab at the same time as developing 73 00:04:37,020 --> 00:04:41,660 my clinical skills at the acute and chronic myeloid leukemia specialist. 74 00:04:41,660 --> 00:04:47,340 And now I have my own lab and I'm a physician scientist at the University of Pennsylvania. 75 00:04:47,340 --> 00:04:48,900 Oh my goodness. 76 00:04:48,900 --> 00:04:51,020 What a phenomenal story. 77 00:04:51,020 --> 00:04:52,060 Phenomenal. 78 00:04:52,060 --> 00:04:56,900 And the part that really intrigues me and really resonates with me is just your focus 79 00:04:56,900 --> 00:04:58,580 from the very beginning. 80 00:04:58,580 --> 00:05:00,440 You knew where you wanted to go. 81 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,820 So it's like, you knew exactly what your destination was going to be. 82 00:05:04,820 --> 00:05:08,220 Perhaps you didn't have the directions or you needed to kind of like take a detour or 83 00:05:08,220 --> 00:05:10,980 two to get there, but you were so focused. 84 00:05:10,980 --> 00:05:14,340 I wonder, you know, what was that? 85 00:05:14,340 --> 00:05:15,700 What helped you have that focus? 86 00:05:15,700 --> 00:05:18,060 I know your parents were physicians, but they weren't scientists. 87 00:05:18,060 --> 00:05:20,500 Like where did that come from? 88 00:05:20,500 --> 00:05:25,300 My dad was, even though my dad wasn't a scientist, he was very interested in science. 89 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:29,100 And so we had a lot of books about science at home. 90 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:33,940 You know, and I used to read everything from Breacher's Trip Time by Stephen Hawking to 91 00:05:33,940 --> 00:05:37,980 books by Stephen Jay Gould to other things about evolutionary biology, Richard Dawkins, 92 00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:40,340 Blind Watchmaker, Selfish Gene, et cetera. 93 00:05:40,340 --> 00:05:43,100 So I was reading all of these books as a kid. 94 00:05:43,100 --> 00:05:49,820 And I think there's just something about the unknown aspects of reality that fascinates 95 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:50,820 me. 96 00:05:50,820 --> 00:05:53,580 There's just so much of the universe that we do not understand, so much of our own bodies 97 00:05:53,580 --> 00:05:57,900 and our own cells and their fundamental functioning that we simply do not understand. 98 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:03,660 And I was just drawn towards those questions and I just wanted to explore them. 99 00:06:03,660 --> 00:06:07,660 It is so awesome to hear the excitement with which you speak. 100 00:06:07,660 --> 00:06:13,980 It's like you're on this amazing adventure and you're not at your destination yet. 101 00:06:13,980 --> 00:06:16,020 You're still in progress and you're having a great time. 102 00:06:16,020 --> 00:06:17,900 Is that fair to say? 103 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:24,420 Well as I mentioned, as a kid during my summer vacation, I was doing experiments in my bedroom. 104 00:06:24,420 --> 00:06:27,660 And so no one was paying me to do that work then. 105 00:06:27,660 --> 00:06:29,940 Now I'm being paid to do the exact same work. 106 00:06:29,940 --> 00:06:31,420 So of course I'm excited. 107 00:06:31,420 --> 00:06:33,340 I love it. 108 00:06:33,340 --> 00:06:34,340 That's so awesome. 109 00:06:34,340 --> 00:06:35,340 Okay. 110 00:06:35,340 --> 00:06:39,540 So all along you were gunning for this destination, becoming a clinician scientist. 111 00:06:39,540 --> 00:06:43,340 At what point did you finally realize that you had transitioned? 112 00:06:43,340 --> 00:06:48,860 When was it that you finally said, wow, I'm a clinician scientist? 113 00:06:48,860 --> 00:06:54,180 I think it probably happened maybe about the second year of my postdoc or so. 114 00:06:54,180 --> 00:07:00,660 I felt that my PI Mitch during my postdoc was very, very willing to give me independence 115 00:07:00,660 --> 00:07:02,060 to pursue my own ideas. 116 00:07:02,060 --> 00:07:04,660 And so there was no fixed agenda in the lab. 117 00:07:04,660 --> 00:07:09,220 I wasn't running projects, experimental projects that he wanted me to pursue. 118 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:12,460 His philosophy is to pretty much give everyone in the lab their own freedom and let them 119 00:07:12,460 --> 00:07:14,020 come up with their own ideas. 120 00:07:14,020 --> 00:07:18,180 And so I think very early in my postdoc, about maybe after the first six months or so I'd 121 00:07:18,180 --> 00:07:22,260 gone by, I realized that really I was just pursuing my own ideas. 122 00:07:22,260 --> 00:07:23,420 I was reading the literature. 123 00:07:23,420 --> 00:07:25,980 I was coming up with the questions I wanted to ask. 124 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:29,700 And that's when I think I really felt like a scientist. 125 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:34,420 And I think the part of being a clinician scientist, I think, comes from the fact that 126 00:07:34,420 --> 00:07:38,360 if you're seeing patients with the same kinds of disorders, then there's a certain kind 127 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:45,340 of intangible understanding of what aspects of biology are actively relevant in the clinical 128 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:52,820 sphere, how medications or drugs or stresses in the clinical arena produce certain phenotypes 129 00:07:52,820 --> 00:07:57,820 that you can potentially try to recapitulate in the lab or that your lab experiments touch 130 00:07:57,820 --> 00:07:58,820 onto. 131 00:07:58,820 --> 00:08:02,780 So I think it really was during my fellowship and postdoctoral period that it all crystallized 132 00:08:02,780 --> 00:08:05,780 together and I felt like a physician scientist. 133 00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:06,780 Wow. 134 00:08:06,780 --> 00:08:09,220 What an amazing experience you had. 135 00:08:09,220 --> 00:08:11,220 And it's not common, Vikram. 136 00:08:11,220 --> 00:08:15,940 Many fellows, especially postdoctoral fellows, are doing projects that their mentors have 137 00:08:15,940 --> 00:08:17,660 gifted them. 138 00:08:17,660 --> 00:08:21,460 And that's not a bad thing, but they don't have the opportunity to start leadership from 139 00:08:21,460 --> 00:08:22,460 the beginning. 140 00:08:22,460 --> 00:08:26,460 So you actually, while also doing your own experiments, were actually leading your research 141 00:08:26,460 --> 00:08:27,460 direction. 142 00:08:27,460 --> 00:08:28,940 And I think that's so unique. 143 00:08:28,940 --> 00:08:35,580 I wonder, what do you say to someone who is not in that same situation as you, where they 144 00:08:35,580 --> 00:08:37,740 just have whatever is available in the lab? 145 00:08:37,740 --> 00:08:42,580 How can they also kind of grow their independence to be able to start leading early? 146 00:08:42,580 --> 00:08:45,320 What would you advise them? 147 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:50,020 I think from a very practical point of view, I think every clinical fellow who wants to 148 00:08:50,020 --> 00:08:55,780 join the lab has to immediately cultivate a network of mentors that are outside of their 149 00:08:55,780 --> 00:08:56,980 lab mentor. 150 00:08:56,980 --> 00:09:00,540 And I think that to me is the single most important thing that you should do in order 151 00:09:00,540 --> 00:09:05,300 to get a variety of different sources of input and feedback on your ideas. 152 00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:09,700 Because once you enter a lab, it's quite possible that your initial ideas may not be very productive 153 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:11,740 and they may not be the right ideas. 154 00:09:11,740 --> 00:09:14,980 On the other hand, it may be that you have a fantastic idea, but your mentor simply is 155 00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:20,000 unable to see it or they feel like those ideas are a little too far outside in the focus 156 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,180 of where they want the lab to be. 157 00:09:23,180 --> 00:09:27,500 It was really useful for me to have a mentorship committee and all of the fellows who enter 158 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:30,420 labs are expected to have mentorship committees here at Penn. 159 00:09:30,420 --> 00:09:36,060 And the expectation is that you would present at the mentorship committee your ideas. 160 00:09:36,060 --> 00:09:39,820 You're not necessarily presenting what your PI has coached you to present, of course. 161 00:09:39,820 --> 00:09:42,660 You are a postdoc, you have to come up with your own independent ideas and you have to 162 00:09:42,660 --> 00:09:47,460 talk about your vision and how this fits into the clinical work you're doing. 163 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:51,540 And eventually, as time goes on, what will your faculty talk look like? 164 00:09:51,540 --> 00:09:56,380 Can you say, this is what I'm bringing to your institution as a clinician and as a scientist? 165 00:09:56,380 --> 00:10:00,660 How can you harmonize those two aspects of your work together and present a vision of 166 00:10:00,660 --> 00:10:04,060 what you're going to work on in the next five to 10-year period? 167 00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:08,360 And so I think from a very practical point of view, I would say having a wide variety 168 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:09,700 of mentors. 169 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:15,500 And also, I think, at some level, being honest with yourself as well, whether the physician-scientist 170 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:17,220 pathway is right for you. 171 00:10:17,220 --> 00:10:22,760 It's not right for, I should say, based on my experience, it's not right for everyone. 172 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,940 One of the reasons being that basic science research has an element of chance involved 173 00:10:27,940 --> 00:10:28,940 with it. 174 00:10:28,940 --> 00:10:33,980 I think as clinicians, as long as we are aware of the literature and we are applying the 175 00:10:33,980 --> 00:10:40,100 standard of care and we are following particular clinical guidelines, beyond a certain point, 176 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:43,540 the outcomes that individual patients will have are beyond our control. 177 00:10:43,540 --> 00:10:45,500 There are some patients we'll be able to cure. 178 00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:50,580 There are some patients, unfortunately, who we cannot cure and some patients who will 179 00:10:50,580 --> 00:10:53,620 have very difficult outcomes under our care. 180 00:10:53,620 --> 00:10:59,500 But as long as you are doing the right thing, your career and its progress as a clinician 181 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:02,900 does not depend on the individual outcomes of patients. 182 00:11:02,900 --> 00:11:07,380 Whereas, on the research side, there is a lot of luck involved. 183 00:11:07,380 --> 00:11:11,620 There may be two post-docs who get two different paralogs of the same gene family and one of 184 00:11:11,620 --> 00:11:15,180 them gets a profound mouse phenotype and gets a very high-impact taper and the other one 185 00:11:15,180 --> 00:11:19,460 gets an extremely subtle genotype and they spend years trying to get it published and 186 00:11:19,460 --> 00:11:23,580 it leads to a low-impact taper and then they are not as well positioned. 187 00:11:23,580 --> 00:11:28,540 I think unless you're willing to put up with that kind of aspect of luck, unless you're 188 00:11:28,540 --> 00:11:32,620 willing to pivot and unless you're willing to, as they say, know when to hold it, know 189 00:11:32,620 --> 00:11:38,900 when to fold it on the basic science side, it's going to be very difficult to be a scientist 190 00:11:38,900 --> 00:11:44,140 because I think experiments not working out or negative results are just an intrinsic 191 00:11:44,140 --> 00:11:46,700 part of how science is done. 192 00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:53,500 So I do think that that has to be an important reckoning that every potential scientist has 193 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:55,340 to do for themselves. 194 00:11:55,340 --> 00:11:59,700 They have to, first of all, be really interested and excited by a scientific question, but 195 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:05,040 they have to be willing to deal with lots of failed experiments and lots of investigational 196 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:06,860 directions that don't go anywhere. 197 00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:12,580 And if, despite that, you are still enthusiastic about the questions that you're asking, then 198 00:12:12,580 --> 00:12:15,820 that's when you are a scientist. 199 00:12:15,820 --> 00:12:16,820 I love it. 200 00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:17,820 I love it. 201 00:12:17,820 --> 00:12:18,820 You said many things. 202 00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:23,700 So one thing you said that I want to highlight is the importance of having a network of mentors. 203 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:27,540 I think many times, and I'm not sure where this comes from in medicine, where it's like 204 00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:30,560 there's just one mentor for me, but there's one mentor. 205 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:33,840 And if things don't work, it may not be the mentor's fault, it may not be you, it just 206 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,340 doesn't work. 207 00:12:35,340 --> 00:12:39,420 And I love what you're talking about, this need to have a mentoring network so that you 208 00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:41,300 know what, you have options. 209 00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:44,900 And in saying that, you're also talking about the importance of leading your own career. 210 00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:47,780 Like nobody's in charge of your career, you are. 211 00:12:47,780 --> 00:12:52,060 And if an experiment fails terribly, like you don't get to blame your mentor. 212 00:12:52,060 --> 00:12:55,440 You don't, I mean, nobody knows that it was going to happen that way. 213 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:00,340 And so, but your ability to say, I'm in charge allows you to pick yourself up and say, where's 214 00:13:00,340 --> 00:13:01,780 the next opportunity? 215 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:06,260 So it's interesting, you talk about luck and I agree that there's an element of luck. 216 00:13:06,260 --> 00:13:11,660 There's also an element of flexibility, also an element of recognizing when it's time to, 217 00:13:11,660 --> 00:13:14,340 as you said, fold the cards and move on. 218 00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:18,140 And an element of accepting the successes when they come. 219 00:13:18,140 --> 00:13:22,820 As like, you know, I, preparation meant opportunity, right? 220 00:13:22,820 --> 00:13:28,100 It's not all luck, but it's like working hard and then seizing opportunities when they come, 221 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:32,380 but also when the opportunities don't work out, finding a different direction as well. 222 00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:33,380 Absolutely. 223 00:13:33,380 --> 00:13:35,620 No, I completely agree with this. 224 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:41,140 And I think one of the wrong impressions about science that students and postdocs sometimes 225 00:13:41,140 --> 00:13:46,420 get from reading papers is when you read a paper, the findings in the paper are presented 226 00:13:46,420 --> 00:13:49,800 in this extremely logical progression, as if they did the first experiment, they got 227 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:50,800 an amazing result. 228 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,140 Then they did the second experiment, got an amazing result. 229 00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:56,660 Right, section number one, almost onto the next section. 230 00:13:56,660 --> 00:13:59,860 Then they did an RNA-seq and they picked one of those genes and they manipulated it and 231 00:13:59,860 --> 00:14:02,100 lo and behold, it rescued the phenotype. 232 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:08,820 So what you don't see in any of these papers is how many different avenues that came perceived 233 00:14:08,820 --> 00:14:11,820 that did not go anywhere and how many negative results they had. 234 00:14:11,820 --> 00:14:16,700 And I think that is something you really actually don't understand until you have done it yourself 235 00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:19,620 and your results have given you negative results. 236 00:14:19,620 --> 00:14:23,980 And so I absolutely agree, the willingness to be flexible, the willingness to, again, 237 00:14:23,980 --> 00:14:28,460 at some point, take a step back and say, is this project working? 238 00:14:28,460 --> 00:14:31,740 Is this project within the big picture plans of what I want to do? 239 00:14:31,740 --> 00:14:33,620 Is this a time to pivot? 240 00:14:33,620 --> 00:14:38,460 Can I take this to my mentors and get guidance from them on what they would do if they were 241 00:14:38,460 --> 00:14:39,780 in this situation? 242 00:14:39,780 --> 00:14:43,580 And also, why did I choose to be a scientist in the first place? 243 00:14:43,580 --> 00:14:45,920 What are the big picture questions that I'm interested in? 244 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,980 And how can I move forward keeping those questions in mind? 245 00:14:49,980 --> 00:14:51,900 I really, really, really appreciate that. 246 00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:53,780 And I feel like it can't be said enough. 247 00:14:53,780 --> 00:14:58,300 I think sometimes, and this is part of our training, where our training is not very flexible 248 00:14:58,300 --> 00:14:59,620 as clinicians, right? 249 00:14:59,620 --> 00:15:01,100 You do med school, you end med school. 250 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:03,220 You go to residency, you end residency, you do fellowship. 251 00:15:03,220 --> 00:15:05,540 I mean, it's very prescribed. 252 00:15:05,540 --> 00:15:11,220 And so when you start doing a research project and things are not quite working out, there 253 00:15:11,220 --> 00:15:14,820 is that sense of like, no, I'm committed to this. 254 00:15:14,820 --> 00:15:16,420 Let's see it through to the end. 255 00:15:16,420 --> 00:15:20,020 And as you say, there are times where you stop and say, is it worth continuing this 256 00:15:20,020 --> 00:15:21,460 project? 257 00:15:21,460 --> 00:15:26,520 And you alluded to not just making the decision on your own, but bringing in a team of mentors 258 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,780 or a team of advisors to help you make that decision. 259 00:15:29,780 --> 00:15:33,740 I wonder if you want to speak to where do you get that flexibility from? 260 00:15:33,740 --> 00:15:35,740 Because we don't all have it. 261 00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:40,820 Oh, well, and are you asking me as a person or in general, how does one get flexibility? 262 00:15:40,820 --> 00:15:45,900 Well, I think I'm asking to be honest, I feel like you, you've had to be flexible in your 263 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,420 journey as you've pivoted so much. 264 00:15:48,420 --> 00:15:52,660 So in a sense, you've been practicing flexibility for a while, but I'm assuming that. 265 00:15:52,660 --> 00:15:56,540 So if you want to speak to how you got your flexibility, that would be great. 266 00:15:56,540 --> 00:16:00,260 And if, you know, I don't have the flexibility, what do I do? 267 00:16:00,260 --> 00:16:01,820 Where do I go to get it? 268 00:16:01,820 --> 00:16:08,060 Well, I suppose the one thing for myself that I could say is that there's one interesting 269 00:16:08,060 --> 00:16:15,940 feature sometimes we see in Tremies where if their experiment is critiqued, they take 270 00:16:15,940 --> 00:16:18,420 that as critique of themselves. 271 00:16:18,420 --> 00:16:23,740 And I think one of the things that you have to realize as a scientist is the biggest skeptic 272 00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:25,780 for your data has to be you yourself. 273 00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:26,780 Right? 274 00:16:26,780 --> 00:16:31,340 If you're getting an interesting result, you have to ask yourself, how could I be fooling 275 00:16:31,340 --> 00:16:32,940 myself? 276 00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:34,500 Do I have all of the right controls? 277 00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:37,220 Is it possible I'm leading myself down the garden path? 278 00:16:37,220 --> 00:16:43,220 And I think for me, I just think I'm intrinsically, if I get an interesting result, I am the one 279 00:16:43,220 --> 00:16:45,620 who constantly thinks about the ways in which it could be wrong. 280 00:16:45,620 --> 00:16:48,960 And I find myself asking, how can I push this in a different way? 281 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:50,620 How can I approach it in a different way? 282 00:16:50,620 --> 00:16:55,900 What else can I do to ensure that what I'm getting is truly a real result as opposed 283 00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:58,180 to some kind of spurious artifact? 284 00:16:58,180 --> 00:17:03,060 And as a result, I think if an experiment doesn't work out, if a result doesn't hold 285 00:17:03,060 --> 00:17:05,300 up, well, the process worked. 286 00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:10,260 As in I investigated it and I got a high confidence negative result. 287 00:17:10,260 --> 00:17:15,380 And so I think for me, the success of an experiment is really not about whether you get what you 288 00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:16,540 want to see. 289 00:17:16,540 --> 00:17:18,660 It's about whether you can get a clear result. 290 00:17:18,660 --> 00:17:24,180 So given that, I think if that is your approach, then in general, it will probably help you 291 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:25,700 in science long-term. 292 00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:31,300 Because the question isn't if the experiment going to validate the result conclusions you 293 00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:33,840 already had in mind from the very beginning. 294 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,620 But can you find the truth of the system? 295 00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:37,980 And the truth may be a negative result. 296 00:17:37,980 --> 00:17:41,100 And you have to be prepared for that. 297 00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:42,100 Those are really good points. 298 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:46,460 I think that clinical training is not the same as research training. 299 00:17:46,460 --> 00:17:50,860 And many times I think a lot of clinically trained people come at it with that. 300 00:17:50,860 --> 00:17:56,100 It's like, well, I mean, there's a lot of subjective judgment in the clinical arena. 301 00:17:56,100 --> 00:18:00,900 And so there's sometimes the sense of this judgment on my experiment is a judgment on 302 00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:01,900 me. 303 00:18:01,900 --> 00:18:05,860 But what you talk about, the need for skepticism is so important because you know what, if 304 00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:07,800 you're not skeptical, other people will be. 305 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,440 And as soon as your paper leads your lab and goes out to the reviewers, then you find out 306 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,740 just how strong the skepticism is. 307 00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:19,480 So you're talking about the opportunity for people to question your work so you can question 308 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:25,300 your work and do what is needed to really make it rigorous. 309 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:29,700 Because it's an opportunity to see what else are you missing. 310 00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:30,700 Absolutely. 311 00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:31,700 Absolutely. 312 00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:36,940 And I think in some ways, sometimes there's an aspect of this that also bleeds over to 313 00:18:36,940 --> 00:18:43,220 the clinical side in the sense of when our patients have unfortunate outcomes, we do 314 00:18:43,220 --> 00:18:45,580 as doctors sometimes blame ourselves. 315 00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:51,040 Why did I not act on that one particular slightly high calcium a day earlier that I could have? 316 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,340 Why did I not give a higher rate of fluids on the surgeon as compared to others? 317 00:18:54,340 --> 00:18:56,420 And these are things that we always think about. 318 00:18:56,420 --> 00:19:00,660 And I think one of the things in clinical medicine that we learn about is you can, at 319 00:19:00,660 --> 00:19:03,360 the end of the day, you can only do your best, right? 320 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:08,020 And you can only try to apply the standard of care and you can only try to be diligent 321 00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:12,500 and a conscientious doctor, but you cannot control the outcomes that you get. 322 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:16,380 You have to accept the outcomes that arise from any disease. 323 00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:18,820 And I think at some level, that's what science is like. 324 00:19:18,820 --> 00:19:23,100 You can try to do your best and you have to be willing to accept the outcomes. 325 00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:26,740 It's always good to have multiple different projects going so that if one particular one 326 00:19:26,740 --> 00:19:30,460 doesn't work, how does it always be others that you can carry forward? 327 00:19:30,460 --> 00:19:34,500 But that may be one way in which there are some similarities, but clearly there are many 328 00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:37,460 differences as well. 329 00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:38,460 Thank you for those points. 330 00:19:38,460 --> 00:19:43,460 I also see this, you know, there's a love for what you do, but there's a healthy, my 331 00:19:43,460 --> 00:19:44,460 eyes are open. 332 00:19:44,460 --> 00:19:46,100 I'm not walking in the clouds. 333 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:49,940 I'm like doing this wonderful experiment and I have these other three potentially if this 334 00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:51,080 one doesn't work. 335 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,080 So that's really good. 336 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,480 And I do think that more people need to understand that, you know what, you just don't know what's 337 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:57,480 going to succeed. 338 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,180 And so don't focus on just one area. 339 00:20:00,180 --> 00:20:01,980 So that's really awesome. 340 00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:07,820 You know, it leads me to my other question, and this is around the fact that, goodness, 341 00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:09,700 you're so optimistic. 342 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:15,580 You like pursued things and you succeeded and you're just having a great adventure. 343 00:20:15,580 --> 00:20:18,700 Has this been like just a walk in the park for you? 344 00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:22,660 If there have been any challenges, what have they been? 345 00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:25,180 Well, it hasn't been a walk in the park. 346 00:20:25,180 --> 00:20:28,500 So there have certainly been places where I have had to, so like actually let me walk 347 00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:31,560 you through my process of coming to the United States. 348 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:41,220 So I applied for a residency from India and I applied to 120 residency programs and I 349 00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:45,860 got interviews at eight of which only one was a university program and that was Temple 350 00:20:45,860 --> 00:20:47,660 University Hospital. 351 00:20:47,660 --> 00:20:52,460 And it's my good fortune that I got into that program because as you know, if you are in 352 00:20:52,460 --> 00:20:56,220 the community program, for instance, it is really difficult to transition from that into 353 00:20:56,220 --> 00:21:00,220 an academic environment and end up with a research career. 354 00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:06,540 So that was definitely not an easy transition, but things ended up working out there. 355 00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:11,300 And then during my postdoc, actually the first project that I was working on ended up not 356 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:13,740 going in the direction that I wanted. 357 00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:20,780 And I ended up getting actually a high impact negative publications because it went against 358 00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:24,580 something that was considered to be more of a accepted dogma in the field. 359 00:21:24,580 --> 00:21:28,520 But it did lead me to a point where I had to pivot my scientific direction. 360 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:34,140 And so midway through my postdoc, I had to find a different project and I had to develop 361 00:21:34,140 --> 00:21:38,940 the resources to be able to get it to a point where I could get other people out if I could 362 00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:44,580 and have the applying for faculty positions come up with sort of a vision of how this 363 00:21:44,580 --> 00:21:46,660 project would help me set up my lab. 364 00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:50,940 And as a result, my postdoc was perhaps a little longer than some of my colleagues, 365 00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:56,500 but that was fine because at the end of the day, it helped me get what I wanted to get. 366 00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:57,500 I love it. 367 00:21:57,500 --> 00:21:59,140 I'm a master of the pivot. 368 00:21:59,140 --> 00:22:04,180 And so what I'm hearing you say is that, yes, you have challenges and for every challenge, 369 00:22:04,180 --> 00:22:07,580 you kind of got up and found a different way. 370 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:12,100 You've kind of been the person who's always getting up again and saying, what other direction 371 00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:13,100 can I go in? 372 00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:14,100 Is that fair to say? 373 00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:15,100 Right. 374 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:19,980 I mean, I guess another way to think about it would be I am extremely privileged that 375 00:22:19,980 --> 00:22:23,380 I am genuinely doing the work that I love doing. 376 00:22:23,380 --> 00:22:24,380 Right? 377 00:22:24,380 --> 00:22:28,660 And I think that making changes, changing a scientific direction, changing a project, 378 00:22:28,660 --> 00:22:32,900 accepting that, oh, this project didn't work out or perhaps I need to spend another year 379 00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:38,180 doing X, Y, and Z, those are small prices to pay if at the end of the day, I get to 380 00:22:38,180 --> 00:22:40,780 do what I love doing. 381 00:22:40,780 --> 00:22:46,100 I appreciate you saying that because I think that's so important for really all clinicians 382 00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:48,460 and really all clinician researchers. 383 00:22:48,460 --> 00:22:55,340 And I wonder how did we get to be able to tolerate misery, not doing the things we actually 384 00:22:55,340 --> 00:22:56,340 enjoy doing. 385 00:22:56,340 --> 00:22:58,380 And I really do think that's important. 386 00:22:58,380 --> 00:22:59,900 And I wonder if you want to speak to it. 387 00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:04,980 So as young people are coming in, people are trying to get publications because it helps 388 00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:07,580 them get into residency or fellowship. 389 00:23:07,580 --> 00:23:12,140 And they want to say they had a lab experience. 390 00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:17,220 How do you advise people who are coming through now as trainees who are trying to do all 391 00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:22,380 the things, get all the checkboxes, but also hopefully eventually end up where they love? 392 00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:26,900 What do they do? 393 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:32,580 That's a difficult question because I don't think there's a single right answer to it. 394 00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:41,380 I do find that often when I'm talking to fellows or residents, I ask them if, and let's say 395 00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:44,780 they approach me or someone else for a rotation project or they want my guidance on which 396 00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:46,420 kind of lab we should pick. 397 00:23:46,420 --> 00:23:52,340 I ask them, do you genuinely want to do the lab because you enjoy answering questions 398 00:23:52,340 --> 00:23:55,980 or is it just because you want to have that as a line on your CV so it can help you in 399 00:23:55,980 --> 00:23:57,820 the next phase of your career? 400 00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:03,580 And it's really important, I think, for trainees to be honest about this because sometimes 401 00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:09,180 an example in oncology is, in general, you can think of two big career paths if you're 402 00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:10,460 doing research in oncology. 403 00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:14,140 It's the basic science lab based or you can think of clinical trials. 404 00:24:14,140 --> 00:24:19,660 And there are trainees sometimes enter a lab, but in their heart of hearts, they are not 405 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:21,660 absolutely sure that that's what they want to do. 406 00:24:21,660 --> 00:24:25,900 And so they spend the two years of fellowship, two years of research time of fellowship, 407 00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:27,880 pursuing a project somewhat half-heartedly. 408 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,340 It doesn't work out. 409 00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:33,900 But then at the same time, they might have spent the time better in getting a clinical 410 00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:35,260 trial up and running. 411 00:24:35,260 --> 00:24:38,500 And so what happens is they reach the end of the fellowship and they don't have a basic 412 00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:42,780 science project that's really working out and they don't have a clinical trial that's 413 00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:43,980 well established. 414 00:24:43,980 --> 00:24:47,420 And so now they're in a real fix in terms of when they apply for an academic position, 415 00:24:47,420 --> 00:24:50,340 exactly what are they going to sell their career as? 416 00:24:50,340 --> 00:24:54,860 And so sometimes it happens that they will then purely do a clinical research career. 417 00:24:54,860 --> 00:24:55,860 And that's fine. 418 00:24:55,860 --> 00:24:59,520 There's absolutely nothing wrong in being 100% or 80% clinical. 419 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,340 But if that wasn't your original goal, then in some ways you have to reflect on whether 420 00:25:04,340 --> 00:25:10,460 you have used this trainee time optimally to advance your career. 421 00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:15,260 And so I would say the first goal is to identify this is really, really, really what you want 422 00:25:15,260 --> 00:25:16,260 to do. 423 00:25:16,260 --> 00:25:20,540 One way to do this is to talk to others who have pursued this track before you and learn 424 00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:24,320 the positives as well as the pitfalls of this career track. 425 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:30,180 And then, yes, if you're sure, then dive into it and give you everything to that track. 426 00:25:30,180 --> 00:25:32,980 Yeah, that's really, really, really great advice. 427 00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:34,860 And I do wish that more people heard that. 428 00:25:34,860 --> 00:25:39,420 I think sometimes, and perhaps again, it goes back to the training of medical school that 429 00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:40,420 is just the path. 430 00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:43,460 And after four years or five or six, you're done. 431 00:25:43,460 --> 00:25:45,500 And then residency, it's like, this is the track. 432 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,060 And then people feel like fellowship, it's the same thing. 433 00:25:48,060 --> 00:25:51,700 The fellowship is unique because it's a transition point. 434 00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:56,040 And so if ever you are not doing anything you didn't care about, fellowship is not the 435 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,900 time to just dabble in things you're not interested in. 436 00:25:58,900 --> 00:26:02,980 Because at the end, as you mentioned, you can lose both ways. 437 00:26:02,980 --> 00:26:04,940 Absolutely, absolutely. 438 00:26:04,940 --> 00:26:07,620 I really think fellowship is not a dabbling time. 439 00:26:07,620 --> 00:26:12,180 I think by fellowship, you really have to have a pretty clear idea. 440 00:26:12,180 --> 00:26:16,180 For instance, in oncology, when you're coming in for fellowship, you don't need to know 441 00:26:16,180 --> 00:26:20,380 if you want to become a breast cancer or a lung cancer or GI cancer specialist. 442 00:26:20,380 --> 00:26:21,880 That you can figure out. 443 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:25,200 What is important to know is, do you see yourself long term as someone who's going to run their 444 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:26,200 own lab? 445 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,340 Do you see yourself as someone who's doing mostly clinical work but is connected with 446 00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:30,340 the lab person? 447 00:26:30,340 --> 00:26:33,180 Do you see yourself interested in epidemiology, you know, and statistics? 448 00:26:33,180 --> 00:26:35,140 That's like another direction you can go in. 449 00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:37,820 Or do you see yourself as someone running clinical trials? 450 00:26:37,820 --> 00:26:42,460 I do think it's important either by the beginning of fellowship or at least six months within 451 00:26:42,460 --> 00:26:45,220 the first start of your fellowship to figure this out. 452 00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:50,380 So you can position yourself well for the remaining two to three precious years of your 453 00:26:50,380 --> 00:26:51,380 fellowship. 454 00:26:51,380 --> 00:26:52,380 Absolutely. 455 00:26:52,380 --> 00:26:55,840 I wonder though, Vikram, how do people get that certainty? 456 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,820 Because I feel like there's so much, in a sense, chameleoning and shape shifting throughout 457 00:27:00,820 --> 00:27:01,860 training. 458 00:27:01,860 --> 00:27:06,380 And so how do you now suddenly get to fellowship and be clear on your direction? 459 00:27:06,380 --> 00:27:08,980 How do people get that? 460 00:27:08,980 --> 00:27:14,700 I think one of the ways in which this is changing is I think we have a decent amount of contact 461 00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:19,060 with residents these days talking about our career pathways and the career tracks. 462 00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:22,940 And so I sometimes am invited to talk to the internal medicine residency program about 463 00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:25,580 a physician scientist track and what it's like. 464 00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:31,840 And I'm constantly urging residents that residency is really busy and most of the time is spent 465 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,220 in catching up with the sleep that you've lost after being on overnight call. 466 00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:39,700 But please keep thinking from your intern year itself about what the shape of your career 467 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:41,060 is going to look like. 468 00:27:41,060 --> 00:27:44,720 Don't fixate on specialties and subspecialties. 469 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:50,860 That is less important than the contours of your career and exactly what kind of work 470 00:27:50,860 --> 00:27:54,860 you want to be, what kind of doctor you want to be, what kind of clinician or clinician 471 00:27:54,860 --> 00:27:59,720 researcher or clinician epidemiologist or basic scientist you want to be. 472 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:05,900 And I think perhaps more emphasis in residency to figuring that out, perhaps in some kind 473 00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:06,900 of formalized way. 474 00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:10,900 I don't know, perhaps residency programs could implement questionnaires or something like 475 00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:15,400 that to help people score what are the different things they want to get out of the career 476 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,980 and then trying to come up with some kind of career counseling. 477 00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:22,460 I'm thinking off the top of my head that I can imagine one way in which residents could 478 00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:29,460 be formally exposed to and trained early to pick between one of these different approaches 479 00:28:29,460 --> 00:28:33,540 so that they can then get everything lined up for when they begin fellowship. 480 00:28:33,540 --> 00:28:34,540 I love it. 481 00:28:34,540 --> 00:28:37,020 I love how you talk about the shape of your career. 482 00:28:37,020 --> 00:28:40,260 It's not, you're not, you're not, you're not like locking yourself in. 483 00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:42,940 You're just figuring out what are the contours. 484 00:28:42,940 --> 00:28:44,220 I really love that term. 485 00:28:44,220 --> 00:28:45,860 It's just, it's just, what does it look like? 486 00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:48,700 It's a big blob or it's like a big piece of stone. 487 00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:51,620 You're chiseling out the statue, but what, what does it look like? 488 00:28:51,620 --> 00:28:52,620 What's the shape? 489 00:28:52,620 --> 00:28:53,700 I really appreciate you saying that. 490 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:54,860 Thank you. 491 00:28:54,860 --> 00:28:58,980 So we are coming towards the end of the show and I will say that, gosh, we've, we've learned 492 00:28:58,980 --> 00:28:59,980 so much from you. 493 00:28:59,980 --> 00:29:05,220 I feel like it's just been just, there's been so much packed in and there's still so much, 494 00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:07,540 I think, that we could yet talk about. 495 00:29:07,540 --> 00:29:11,980 But I want to ask you, when you think about this whole pathway, this whole journey as 496 00:29:11,980 --> 00:29:16,900 a clinician scientist, what haven't we talked about that's important for younger people 497 00:29:16,900 --> 00:29:19,660 to know? 498 00:29:19,660 --> 00:29:20,660 That's a good question. 499 00:29:20,660 --> 00:29:25,100 Actually, I think we talked about so much that I wondered if anything specific I have 500 00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:26,100 left to say. 501 00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:31,460 But I guess the one thing I would say in response to this question is, and it doesn't apply 502 00:29:31,460 --> 00:29:37,060 to me, but I think in the past, especially for women in science, having children and 503 00:29:37,060 --> 00:29:41,780 taking maternity leave was considered to be a real detriment to your scientific career. 504 00:29:41,780 --> 00:29:43,680 And that is definitely changing. 505 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,580 And so I think there's a lot of recognition that, you know, maternity time, paternity 506 00:29:48,580 --> 00:29:54,760 time is going to be part of your scientific career and definitely allows you to add extra 507 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,500 years to your tenure clock, for example, as a faculty member if you have kids. 508 00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:06,700 And so I think that is something that I hope that women in science don't shy away from 509 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:11,420 the position scientists track, thinking that maternity leave or maternity is anyway going 510 00:30:11,420 --> 00:30:12,820 to compromise their success. 511 00:30:12,820 --> 00:30:14,900 Because I think there's a lot more recognition of this. 512 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:17,140 There are lots of resources for this. 513 00:30:17,140 --> 00:30:21,820 And I think as we are increasingly seeing more women in leadership positions as chairs 514 00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:25,620 of divisions, including basic science divisions, which necessarily might not have been the 515 00:30:25,620 --> 00:30:31,780 case maybe like 10, 15 years ago, I do think that this is an important aspect of science 516 00:30:31,780 --> 00:30:33,060 that is shifting. 517 00:30:33,060 --> 00:30:38,400 And so I suppose that's the one thing I would say, that I hope scientists don't choose 518 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:45,140 or not choose position scientists tracks for reasons about the logistics, about family 519 00:30:45,140 --> 00:30:50,340 life and concerns that that may not allow them to achieve what they really should be 520 00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:52,020 able to achieve. 521 00:30:52,020 --> 00:30:53,500 I really appreciate you saying that. 522 00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:58,640 I think really even speaking more broadly, it's like don't think that there are barriers 523 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,760 that are insurmountable. 524 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:07,520 Don't make the choice based on those barriers because you see the obstacles and for whatever 525 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,420 case you have ideas about what those obstacles are. 526 00:31:10,420 --> 00:31:13,780 So don't make the decision based on obstacles you perceive. 527 00:31:13,780 --> 00:31:16,940 There is opportunity to push past those obstacles. 528 00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:20,320 I think all of science is about pushing past obstacles. 529 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:25,380 So that's really, really important that you raise that and thank you for doing that. 530 00:31:25,380 --> 00:31:26,380 All right. 531 00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:29,820 Well, I want to say thank you for being on the show. 532 00:31:29,820 --> 00:31:32,200 I really do appreciate your insights. 533 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,280 I will tell you that I appreciate and enjoy your enthusiasm for your work. 534 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,060 You clearly are on a great adventure. 535 00:31:40,060 --> 00:31:41,640 That's not without its challenges. 536 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,280 You just choose to see them as opportunities to move in different directions. 537 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:53,060 I think that optimism, that enthusiasm, and that just flexibility and practicality is 538 00:31:53,060 --> 00:31:59,040 key and that people really should be looking to engage those skills to be able to really 539 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,640 succeed in this career. 540 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:02,640 Thank you so much. 541 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,020 It's been such a pleasure to talk to you. 542 00:32:05,020 --> 00:32:09,060 I appreciate your insight and everything you bring to this conversation as well. 543 00:32:09,060 --> 00:32:10,060 Thank you. 544 00:32:10,060 --> 00:32:11,060 Thank you. 545 00:32:11,060 --> 00:32:12,060 It's been fun. 546 00:32:12,060 --> 00:32:13,060 All right, everybody. 547 00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:14,680 That was an amazing conversation. 548 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,960 I think so many people need to hear it. 549 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,420 This path can be challenging, but really, how do we choose to see it? 550 00:32:21,420 --> 00:32:22,420 How do we choose to move forward? 551 00:32:22,420 --> 00:32:24,860 How do we choose to address pitfalls? 552 00:32:24,860 --> 00:32:29,500 These are things that Dr. Parulkar really elaborated on for us. 553 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:33,660 So please, if there's someone you know who would benefit from hearing this podcast episode, 554 00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:34,940 please share it with them. 555 00:32:34,940 --> 00:32:37,900 If you're a mentor, your mentees probably need to hear it. 556 00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:40,620 If you're a mentee, your network needs to hear this. 557 00:32:40,620 --> 00:32:42,260 So definitely share this episode. 558 00:32:42,260 --> 00:32:43,260 All right. 559 00:32:43,260 --> 00:32:53,860 Thank you so much, and we'll see you next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast. 560 00:32:53,860 --> 00:32:59,220 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic 561 00:32:59,220 --> 00:33:04,500 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 562 00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:06,020 have a mentor. 563 00:33:06,020 --> 00:33:12,120 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 564 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:13,860 Someone else needs to hear it. 565 00:33:13,860 --> 00:33:17,900 So take a minute right now and share it. 566 00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:23,380 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 567 00:33:23,380 --> 00:33:43,420 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.