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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is a pleasure to be speaking with you today.

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Today I'm going to be talking about how many grants to submit.

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I was at a conference just a few months ago, and I was leading a discussion about tips

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for successful rewriting, and one of the questions that was posed to me was, how do you know

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when it's time to stop submitting grants?

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And I thought that was a really great question, because sometimes it can feel as if there's

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no end to submitting grants.

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It feels like you're always submitting.

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And so then the question is, how do you handle that?

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How do you know when enough is enough?

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Is there ever a limit?

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And so I want to talk a little bit about that.

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And I think it's important to recognize that we're not really counting numbers.

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We're not saying, oh, yes, one is too little and seven is too many.

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I mean, the question is really about your goals and also being strategic about your

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submission as well.

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Now I will tell you that I've had the opportunity to submit many grants that have gone unfunded,

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and there is so much benefit to submitting a grant that really goes beyond just getting

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the money.

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Don't get me wrong, getting the money at the end of the grant is so nice.

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It's kind of the major goal, but it's not the only goal.

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I want to speak to that a little bit before I talk to you about five ways to know that

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it's time to submit a grant.

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So when you are pulling together a grant, what you're doing is taking an idea that's

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kind of somewhere in your head and you're creating and building it out.

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You are taking something out of nothing.

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You're taking something literally out of thin air.

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You're giving it body, you're giving it life.

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You're calling collaborators who will help you do this work.

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And the more you're making it real by writing it out, by thinking about all the components,

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what is needed to bring this to life, the more you're bringing something out of the

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invisible to become visible.

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It is magic.

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Or at least it feels like magic, and it's not really.

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If you think about it, you look around you right now, everything you see used to not

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exist.

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And it exists only because it first existed in somebody's imagination.

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And it was in somebody's imagination until they made blueprints, put structure around

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it, and then somebody knew what to build based on their blueprints.

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When you write grants, you're doing the same thing.

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You are taking an idea in your mind.

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You're putting it on paper.

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You're creating a blueprint that somebody else, preferably your team, is going to be

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able to use to build the actual building.

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And so many of the things, many of the discoveries that are waiting to happen will happen because

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you're bringing the idea out of your head onto the paper.

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And that sounds all well and good.

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It's like, well, what's the point if nobody gives me money?

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Somebody's going to give you money.

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What happens when you bring out the idea from your head for the first time, it's pretty

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raw and all the pieces don't quite come together.

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You are able to bring it together for the grant submission, but it could be more refined.

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And so when you get the feedback from that grant and then you rework it and you repurpose

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it for the next grant, you're using all the same building blocks that you've used before,

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but now you've had space between the project.

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And so you're able to think about it more deeply.

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You're able to refine it.

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You're able to say, well, how does it fit this funder a little bit better?

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Every time you take your project and work on it again and rewrite the grant, it's becoming

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sharper, it's becoming more focused, it's actually answering all the questions that

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are raised.

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And that's why it's important that you enjoy the work you're doing, that you have a sense

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of purpose about the work, because it really does take commitment to take something from

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kind of like the raw version of like uncut stone to chisel out a masterpiece.

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That's what you're doing when you're writing grants.

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So I want you to think about it like that.

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And then I want you to now think about five ways to think about when it's time to submit

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a grant.

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I only started in this way, but I want you to know that it is important.

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The first thing you want to do is define the impact you want to make.

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You're not here to play.

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Writing grants takes time, energy, and effort.

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So it better be something you want to do.

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And yeah, nobody gets up and says, I would like to spend the rest of my life writing

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grants because it's not really about writing grants.

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You could be writing other things.

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You could be writing a mystery thriller, the next New York Times bestseller.

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Nobody writes just to write.

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You write because there's a reason behind your writing.

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You write because your writing gives you something that you don't have already.

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Yes, ideally, that's money, but it's more than that.

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Before out to make an impact in a specific area of study, or at least I hope you are,

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some people are not.

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Some people are just there to say, hey, I did this thing and now I'm done.

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Or some people might be there to say, well, you know, I did the project that my mentor

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wanted me to do and now I'm done.

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And I hope that's not you.

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And if that's you, that's okay.

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I was there too.

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It's an opportunity to stop and reassess and say, hey, I may have been just doing this

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thing and now I want to stop and actually take ownership.

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And what is the place in which I want to contribute?

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One of the things that could be helpful, and I always will share this, is that working

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with a coach is helpful to help you really think through your why.

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It can be hard to do on your own.

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And sometimes there isn't the space.

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You don't always have the peer mentoring or even the mentoring to be able to do that.

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Because sometimes you're saying, I'm going to do something different from what my mentor

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has laid out for me.

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Or you're saying, I'm going to do something that, you know, I'm going to do something

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different from what I've been successful in for years.

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That's a hard place to be.

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And to some extent, your mind rejects that.

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It's like, well, I know it's what I really want to do, but they're going to be so mad

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at you.

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Are you sure that's what you want to do?

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And what you need is for someone to create space for you so that you can really objectively

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and logically weigh all the pros and cons and make a decision that is in your long term

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best interest.

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And so if you're a woman in hematology, you don't have a coach, let's talk and let's see

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if we can establish a relationship that helps you win in this way, that helps you clearly

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define the impact you want to make so that you can be intentional about building that

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impact.

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But what you want to do is define the impact that you want to make.

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So important.

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Because it guides everything you do.

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And even when you get rejections, it helps you remember that, okay, this is the impact

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I want to make.

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It is absolutely worth this impact.

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This rejection is just temporary.

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I can move this forward.

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And it really does help you reframe.

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And to be honest, it energizes you while you're writing because you're like, wow, if this

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project actually took off, if we were able to succeed, oh my goodness, it's so energizing.

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So to have a strong sense of the impact that your work can make is so important in moving

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forward.

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I want to ask you, don't settle.

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Don't settle for a project that's just so-so.

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Or maybe it is a nature worthy manuscript that you're working on.

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Great.

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But does it drive you?

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Like, does it energize you to work on it?

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Don't settle for work that doesn't move you.

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That's my encouragement.

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You don't have to, so don't do it.

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And if you're like, huh, really?

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I can live like that?

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I can actually let go of work that doesn't energize me?

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The answer is yes, you can.

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And I'm not saying it'd be an easy switch, but it's an important switch because the work

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that really helps you feel like you're making an impact is work that you keep doing no matter

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what.

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So you can pick yourself up from the ground of rejection and move forward again.

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Okay.

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The second thing that you want to think about is find out what it will take for you to make

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the kind of impact you want.

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When we start out in our careers, many times we're very focused on protecting our own time,

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and that's important.

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Protecting our own time is important.

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But the real impact we make is when we have money to fund other people to do the work,

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right?

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In order to be able to fund other people to do the work, you have to know what work needs

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to be done.

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Like, what does it take to bring my project to life?

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What does it take for execution?

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And when you are very clear about that, then you know what resources you need.

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And so what you're really doing and finding out what it will take to make the kind of

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impact you want is you're defining the resources that you want, not just people resources,

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but also things, not just things, but also people.

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So clarifying what it will take, what resources are needed helps you to do number three.

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Number three is decide who are the people that can help you make this impact.

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I read a really awesome book recently, co-written by Dr. Benjamin Hardy and the author, strategic

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coach whose name I do not remember right now.

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But it is a great book.

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It's who, not how.

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You're at a place in your career where you don't need to go back to the very beginning

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and learn all the skills again and then try to compete with people who've been doing

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the same thing for years.

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What you want to do is find a collaborator, a collaborator who already has those skills

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and then join up with them and allow the synergy to carry the work forward.

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But you know what?

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These collaborators, especially any that are worth their salt, are already busy doing

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other things.

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So if you want to distract them from the work they're doing, you should be able to compensate

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them for their time so that the work that they do for you is actually paid for and then

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they're able to really, really help you.

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So you want to know who these people are so that you can figure out how to fund them,

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right?

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You want to decide who are the people who will come alongside you on this project, who

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are the people who have the expertise that you need, who will carry the work forward

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because then you know what you need to fund them.

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And that's number four.

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Number four is find out what it will cost to fund them.

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And so it's very interesting.

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One of the ways we think and research as physicians is that everything should be done for free.

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And so there's so many networks of people where it's like, well, do it with sweat equity.

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And the truth is, apart from in the physician world, not much gets done with sweat equity

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anywhere.

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Everything costs something.

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You know, if you're doing work with sweat equity, then you're taking from your family

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time, you're taking from your rest and rejuvenating time to do the work.

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The reality is, as a physician leader, as a clinician leader, as a scientist leader,

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you need people to help you carry out your vision.

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So figure out what it takes to fund them.

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And that is what helps you really define how much is needed, how much is needed.

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And then you now decide what grant opportunities help me fund the people that I found that

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helped me make the kind of impact I want to make.

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Now you have the answer to what you need.

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You have a clear understanding of the infrastructure you need to make the kind of impact you want.

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So now it's time to take that to the opportunities that are available.

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Now if you're doing work that's really meaningful, it's going to be a large sum of money that

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helps you move forward because you're going to want great expertise.

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You're going to want the right people at the table.

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You're going to want the right expertise at the table.

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And so you're going to have some serious need for funds.

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And you want to find the opportunities that match those needs.

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And it may be sometimes you have to go for smaller pots of money because that's what's

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available.

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But I do want you to think big.

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What you need is what you need.

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And yes, many of these competitions are really competitive.

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Oh my goodness, they're stiff.

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But what you need is what you need.

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And to be honest, the kind of investment it takes to submit a grant, a big grant, is only

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marginally larger or marginally bigger than the investment to submit a smaller grant.

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The payoff is much more significant.

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So you want to assess your needs, figure out what it takes to fund that, and then go after

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funding opportunities that align with your needs.

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That's number five.

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Find the right opportunities that align with your needs.

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Number six is to keep submitting until you have the money to fund your vision.

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So here's the thing.

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Yes, I'm saying what you guessed at the very beginning, you're going to submit a lot of

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grants.

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You're going to submit a lot of proposals.

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You are.

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But here's the thing.

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The first proposal may be the hardest proposal you submit.

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This is assuming that you're staying within one focus and you're not in like three or

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four or five different places where every time you write a grant, you're doing something

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brand new.

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You're staying in one area of focus.

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You write one grant.

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When you go to write it again, there's a lot of material that you've accumulated in the

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writing of that grant that you can take and apply to the next grant.

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Now, is it so simple where you just kind of move the puzzle pieces together and you can

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succeed in this grant?

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No, it's harder than that.

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But what you find is over time, it gets easier.

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Over time, you know the language.

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Over time, you know how to say things a certain way.

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Your work gets better over time.

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It refers to the compound interest I spoke about in a previous episode is that the more

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you're investing, the more return you get on your investment.

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And staying in an area of focus, submitting grants in that same area over and over again

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really gives you an advantage.

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Yes, by the time you get to the seventh submission, your work is so polished.

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You're like, of course I got the grant.

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Oh my gosh, it couldn't have gotten more perfect than that.

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It gets better over time.

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What also happens over time is you become more strategic about where you are applying

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to because different funders have different priorities.

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You become very strategic about how to pursue the right funder to get your projects funded

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so that the impact can be made.

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So to answer the question as to how many grants do you need to submit, you've guessed it.

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The answer is you keep submitting until your vision is complete.

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For some people, it'll be after 20 years of research and writing and being a scientist.

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For some people, it'd be 30, 40 years.

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For some people, it's like after 10 years, I'm done.

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That's different for everyone.

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But it is important to recognize that you've come to make a specific contribution.

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And even if you never make it, right, we have a big, hairy, audacious goal.

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And we may not necessarily be the one to solve that huge problem, but we're chipping away

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at it.

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We're working towards it.

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We're getting closer to its solution, the solution of the problem, and it's energizing.

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And even if somebody else comes and finally makes that discovery, it's energizing that

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you've been able to work on it as long as you have.

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And so you keep submitting until the day is won, until the impact is made, or until you

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pass the baton off to somebody else to keep doing the work.

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So because the work doesn't stop, because your impact is not yet made, because there's

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still outstanding people who are coming along for the ride of a lifetime on this mission

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with you, you keep submitting so that you can fund them, so that you can fund yourself.

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So this idea that is so precious has life and can go and do something great.

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It's been a privilege to talk with you today, if this episode has been helpful to you.

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I want to invite you to share it with someone else.

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Somebody else needs to hear this, needs to be encouraged that their rejections are not

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final, they're part of the journey, and that over time, their rejections become less severe

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because you're able to use them strategically to your advantage.

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If you're a mentor and a mentee needs to hear this, please forward it to them.

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Please also leave us a review because that's how other people can find us.

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It's been a pleasure to talk with you today.

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I look forward to the next time.

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Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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have a mentor.

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If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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Someone else needs to hear it.

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So take a minute right now and share it.

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As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.

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Thank you.