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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to today's episode.

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I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to be in your ears.

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Thank you for taking the time to listen.

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Today's podcast episode is titled, Don't Do That Research Project.

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And it's really important because sometimes when we are starting out, there's this feeling

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that every project is a great project.

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Of course it's a great project.

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The mentor is a Nobel Laureate.

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Of course it's going to launch my career.

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I'm going to be super awesome.

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And that's how I was thinking when I first started.

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So no, my first mentor was not a Nobel Laureate, but might as well have been.

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It was the one mentor who was like, sure, come work on a project with me.

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And I was like, oh my gosh, I have a mentor who wants me to work on a project.

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And I just thought I was the luckiest person in the world.

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Never mind that I didn't want to do this project.

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And then it wasn't something I was interested in and not something I saw myself doing long

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term.

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It was a project and I needed to do a project, right?

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Every project is a great project, right?

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And here's what happened to me.

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You know, I didn't have enthusiasm for the project and I started doing it with enthusiasm

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for just the idea of me having a project to work on or a mentor who cared enough about

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me to even offer me a project.

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So I started out with gusto, but then over time I kind of got tired.

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It got hard.

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The going got tough and it became clear that I really, really wasn't invested in the project.

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And guess what?

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I started to drag my feet and I started to turn things in a little bit late.

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And I mean, it kind of felt like a passive aggressive stance.

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I mean, I just couldn't bring myself to be excited about a project that I was never excited

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about from the beginning.

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And you know what?

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The mentor just didn't think much of my inaction as well.

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And so there I was not enjoying what I was doing.

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There was the mentor not happy that I was dragging my feet on a project that they considered

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really important and at the end they were happy to say goodbye to me and I was not sad

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to go.

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It was a lose lose situation.

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And why did it happen?

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It happened because I felt like it was a project that I had to take because I wasn't sure there

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was any other project that was going to come my way.

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And so I subscribed to the lie of scarcity.

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I'm here to talk to you about why you should not just jump out every research project that

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comes your way.

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I want you to think about actually being very, very selective about what research projects

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you do.

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And now people will tell me that I, what do you mean be selective?

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There's no project.

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But it is really important to consider that sometimes it's better not to do any research

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project than to do the one that you hate, that you're not doing well at and you're actually

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taking up space that somebody else could be, could be taking up in that moment and actually

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enjoying the project.

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And these are things that I want us to consider.

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Okay.

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So I'm going to talk about three don'ts and I'm going to talk about three dos.

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The first thing, the first don't to consider in choosing a research project is don't choose

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the mentor first and then the project later.

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And sometimes people will say, hey, the mentor can make you.

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It doesn't matter what the project is.

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Just take it and run with it.

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The mentor will make you.

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And that is exactly the problem.

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The problem is that the mentor will make you into a person you don't want to be.

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If you do not want to be the number one person for receptor signaling in cancer, if you know

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that that's not the path for you, it doesn't matter how awesome and amazing the mentor is.

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It's not a project that's for you.

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Yes, you will be successful.

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Yes, you will get an amazing abstract out of it.

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It'll be an oral presentation.

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Everybody will hail you as the next best thing since sliced bread.

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You'll get this amazing manuscript that'll be published in Nature and published in Science

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and everybody will sing your praises, but it's not what you want to do.

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And so it's really important to first of all, take a step back and recognize that, hey,

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there is abundance here.

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There is abundance here.

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You have the opportunity, the opportunity to really negotiate your path forward.

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I negotiate, I'm the negotiation coach for women in academic hematology.

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And if you're looking for a coach, you're going to work with me.

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But there is opportunity for you to negotiate your way forward.

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And that doesn't have to look like doing something that you don't want to do just because the

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mentor is great.

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Yes, the mentor is great, but you are not them.

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If you're not excited about receptor signaling, don't jump on the boat and start rowing because

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you'll find yourself in a destination that you don't want to be at.

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And you get there and you're successful and people expect you to keep being successful.

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And that's why you see many people in academia who have what I call miserable success.

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They're doing great.

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They have all the funding.

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They have all the manuscripts and they hate their job.

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They hate what they do because they kind of are successful in the field that they didn't

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even really care about.

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And I mean, they can force themselves to like it over the long term.

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And to be honest, doing work in receptor signaling is good, right?

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You're making a contribution.

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So it's not that you're not making a contribution, but if it's not heart and soul what you really

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want to do, then it doesn't matter how awesome the mentor is.

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It does matter that you find a space that resonates with you.

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You find a work that is meaningful to you, that energizes you.

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Otherwise it gets really, really hard to keep coming to work in the morning to do a project

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that may be awesome to other people, but is not super awesome to you.

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And then part of that is you take this because there's a feeling of scarcity, right?

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How many Nobel laureates are there at your institution?

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This one chose you.

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You feel like the one.

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And if you don't take this opportunity, maybe no opportunity will ever come to you.

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People will hear of you as the person who refused the Nobel laureate and they will never

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be your mentor.

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And is it true?

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It is not true.

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That's believing the lie of scarcity.

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The truth of abundance is that there is more than enough for everyone.

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There is enough projects to go around.

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There are enough mentors to go around.

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There is enough for you.

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And when you take up space in a place that you don't even care for, just because you're

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afraid that you won't get another opportunity, you're taking up space that actually belongs

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to someone else.

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You're taking up an opportunity that somebody else is super excited about and is going to

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just excel in and thrive in while you're just kind of marking time, fulfilling all righteousness

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just so that you'll say you get it and you have a super mentor who carried you along.

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So don't choose the mentor first and then the project leader.

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Make sure that the projects that this mentor does are projects that resonate with you.

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And if the mentor is super and there isn't a project that resonates with you, how about

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you co-create a project that's along the lines of what you're interested in?

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Now this does require the buy-in of the mentor and maybe they won't buy-in.

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Maybe they'll say no.

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If you don't work in where I work, if you don't do the work I'm working in, I'm not

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supporting you.

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And that does happen.

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You want to know that upfront because eventually you're going to want to pivot to your own

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work, transition to work that nourishes and energizes you.

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And if they're not going to support you from the beginning, you really do want to know

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that.

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So think about the project and make sure it aligns with your interests.

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Don't let the razzle dazzle or the bling bling of the mentor distract you from making the

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right decision.

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Okay.

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So that's don't number one.

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Don't number two is don't do the project because it's guaranteed to succeed.

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There are so many things in academia that are guaranteed success.

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Sometimes it's, you know, you're in the lab of a mentor who's so successful, everything

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this mentor touches turns to gold.

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So we hear.

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And so you go, you do the project because it's guaranteed to succeed.

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You're like, I don't even care about it, but it's going to work.

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And you know, I hope it doesn't work.

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I hope it doesn't succeed because that's actually a better outcome for you doing work.

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You don't care about.

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Yeah.

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If it doesn't succeed, at least it gives you the opportunity to leave soon enough and go

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find the work you do care about.

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The problem when it succeeds is that you become stuck.

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You become stuck in your own success.

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Sometimes excited that, wow, you did such amazing work and then they use the work you're

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successful in to define you.

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And then when you're like, well, what I really want to do is over there.

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They say, no, you have no track record over there, but you have track record here.

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And therefore this is the work we believe you should be doing.

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And then you get pigeonholed into the place of your success where it's not the place you

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want it to be from the beginning, but you took the project because someone told you

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it was guaranteed to succeed.

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And the project you really wanted to work on, you weren't sure about its success.

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Here's the thing about the project that you wanted to work on that you were not initially

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sure of its success.

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Nothing succeeds without investment.

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Nothing.

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Nothing succeeds by chance.

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And the work that's guaranteed to succeed is work somebody else has been doing over

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a long period of time.

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Of course it's guaranteed to succeed.

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It's, you know, eventually it's had its chance to go through all its ups and downs.

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It's been workshopped.

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It's been refined.

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It's gotten better over time.

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And the more time that's been invested in it, clearly the more return on that investment.

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And so your work, the one that's not guaranteed to succeed, the one that you actually want

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to do, will take that same amount of love and care and investment.

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And the time that you are not working on it because you're going for the thing that's

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sure is a time that's not spent developing it and making it into something that eventually

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becomes sure.

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And so if it's the work that you really want to do, it is absolutely worth making the investment

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to bring that work to where it needs to be.

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And I know that it seems silly to say, leave the thing that's certain to succeed and go

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after the, you know, leave the work that's not going to succeed and go after the thing

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that's definitely going to succeed.

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It seems silly to say that you should leave the work that's not going to succeed.

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Like, what?

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Do you not want me to succeed?

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I do want you to succeed.

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I want you to succeed well.

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I want you to succeed in a way that you're whole.

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I want you to succeed in a way that you're proud of the work you do.

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And sometimes success is not everything.

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If everyone thinks you're successful and you're miserable inside because you hate the work

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you do, then guess what?

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There's only the illusion of success.

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There is not the reality.

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So don't do work that you think is guaranteed to succeed.

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And in doing that, you leave behind the work that you actually care about and are passionate

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about because it's not guaranteed to succeed.

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The only person that can guarantee the success of any work is you, the one who loves it.

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You are the one who makes an investment that allows work to move forward.

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And if you don't allow yourself to make that investment in work that matters to you, then

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you may end up being miserable for a long time.

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That's don't number two.

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Tip number three is don't do the project because you're desperate.

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Okay.

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So in academic medicine, there's a lot of scarcity mindset.

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There's a lot of information flying around, most of it untrue, that there's a limited

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pot of money.

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There are limited opportunities.

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Everything is limited.

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And so the first time that somebody shows up and says, I'll take you on as a mentee.

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I'll give you a project to do, you're so desperate.

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You just say yes.

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And you haven't really evaluated whether it's a good fit for you or not.

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You haven't evaluated whether this is a project you really want to do.

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You're so desperate, you take it.

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And that is how many people end up in abusive mentoring relationships where they are yelled

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at by mentors or taken off papers at the end of having made a lot of investment.

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And none of that should be happening.

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Don't get me wrong.

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None of that should be happening.

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But when you're desperate, you tend to allow abuses unchecked.

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You say, oh, my mentor yelled at me because they were a little bit stressed.

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If I wasn't so slow, they wouldn't be yelling.

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And if you had a great sense of self, you would have the opportunity potentially to

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say, hey, when you yell at me, it causes me stress.

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Or maybe you don't have the courage or the confidence to do that.

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If you're not desperate, you can go look for someone who can maybe stand up for you.

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Or you can start to work towards looking for another partnership for your research.

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When you're desperate, though, sometimes you roll over and play dead because you're like,

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don't fire me.

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Don't fire me.

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I don't know if I'll find any other work.

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Don't fire me.

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And you accept poor treatment.

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You accept mistreatment because you're so desperate to hold on to work.

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I want to say this applies to life in general.

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Don't do work because you're desperate.

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So don't take the project because you think that there'll be no other project.

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Because if you don't create the space or the project you really want to do, you're spending

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all this time doing work you don't want to do.

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When the work you want to do becomes available, how will you recognize it?

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You're so busy doing stuff you hate.

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How will you recognize the thing you love?

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And so in general, it really makes sense to create space for what you love, create space

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for the work you want to do, and allow the vacuum to sit for a little bit until that

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work comes along.

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Don't get desperate doing work that you don't care about just because you're afraid that

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the other project that you like is eventually not going to come your way.

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Now, the project will come your way.

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You know why I know that?

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When you create space to work on the project, you create the project yourself, you make

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room for the project yourself, of course it's going to come your way.

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Because that's what you desire.

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It's what you're working towards.

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You are the one making the magic happen.

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So don't be desperate.

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Don't be desperate.

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Wait for the good that you're looking for to come your way, because you're going to

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make the good happen for yourself.

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Okay, we've talked about the three dos.

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Now I'm going to offer you three dos as far as thinking about choosing a research project.

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The first do is to take a step back and think first about what impact you want.

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Now I'm talking to people who are establishing their careers, right?

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You are maybe a fellow transitioning to faculty, or maybe you're a junior faculty, or maybe

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you're even mid or senior career.

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And you're like, well, all my life I've been doing this work that other people have recommended

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for me, and I never got to do the thing I wanted to do.

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It's okay.

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It's never too late to start to make your own way.

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And so what I'm inviting you to do is to think about the impact you want to make.

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20, 30, 40 years from now, you're going to look back on your career.

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And if research is the path you've chosen, who is going to be the beneficiary of your

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research?

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What population will have really benefited from your research?

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What population can you say, I really have made a change in the way this population is

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treated or what their outcomes are because of my work?

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And so once you identify that, then you can start to think about, well, who's doing work

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in this area?

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Well, who has techniques and research that I can apply to this area?

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Because you know, in research, it's not that we're not doing anything new.

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Many times we're looking and seeing what has been done in another field, and we're bringing

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it and translating it into our own fields.

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And so there is opportunity.

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There is opportunity in our fields because there's opportunity in other fields.

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And so once you determine what your impact will be, who's the population you want to

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affect?

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What's the work you want to be remembered for?

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Start from there.

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There's a book by Simon Sinek.

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Start with why.

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And it is important.

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It's important to start with why because it allows you to stay sustained for the long

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haul.

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Many people are trying to make careers out of projects they hate.

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It is so hard to succeed in research because the work we do requires years and years of

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investment.

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It is hard to succeed in something you really don't want to do.

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When you love the work, it's still hard work, but at least it's work you want to do.

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So do first think about the impact you want to make before you move forward in choosing

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this research project.

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Make sure there's a relationship.

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So sometimes it's not exactly the patient population you want.

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It's not exactly the project you want to do, but you've got to clearly see how it links

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to your vision for your career, to your vision for your research.

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And so maybe it's not diabetes that you want to work in, but this technique and this RNA

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sequencing technique is relevant to the project that you want to do and say hypertension,

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great.

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Then you clearly see the connection.

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You're not going to get stuck in diabetes research when you really want to do hypertension.

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You're going to be really, really focused on taking what you learn from diabetes and

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transitioning it to hypertension.

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If you can't do it now, you do it later.

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But having a clear focus of what you want your legacy and your impact to be allows you

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to do that, allows you to be very clear and very focused.

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What you can do is to choose a mentor, do choose a mentor based on who is most equipped

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to get you to your desired goal.

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Now sometimes the person you have around you are the persons you have around you.

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No, there isn't a mentor who's going to help you do that big project in hypertensive urgency

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or TMA due to hypertensive urgency.

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No, there isn't that mentor, right?

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But there's a mentor who's doing something adjacent and they have the tools that will

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equip you to go do the work that you really want to do.

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This mentor has tools that are going to help you move forward.

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Then okay, choose that mentor.

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Choose the mentor because they make sense as the mentor who helps you move forward in

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the work you really want to do.

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Choose the mentor, not because they're the biggest name in town, but because they have

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the tools that you need to move forward.

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Choose the mentor who's going to give you the guidance necessary to come into your own

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as a researcher.

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Choose the mentor who's going to support you, not pull you down in the process of your journey.

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Choose the mentor because they're going to be able to help you get to your desired end.

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Now that requires that you know your desired end and for many of us in medicine, we actually

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practice not knowing what we want, right?

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We practice suppressing emotions, emotion, we practice suppressing feelings.

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So we disconnect from when we're feeling sleepy.

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We disconnect from when we're hungry.

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We disconnect from when we want to go to the bathroom because hey, the work's got to be

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done.

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So when it comes to knowing what you really want to do, it becomes really hard.

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That's where a coach can be helpful.

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If you don't have a coach or looking for a coach, definitely reach out to me.

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Let's talk about whether we could be a good fit for each other.

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But really, coaching can help you think through what you really, really want.

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What you really, really want helps focus you as you're choosing projects and also as you're

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choosing mentors to recognize that although the mentor is far ahead of you, they're really

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there to serve your future.

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They're there to help you advance.

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They're there to help you move forward.

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And so knowing where you want to go allows you to know how to best use the mentor to

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your advantage.

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And if you have trouble doing that, coaching can help you get there.

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And let's talk about how I may be able to help you.

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The third do is that you should recognize, do recognize that everything you need to succeed

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already exists.

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It already exists.

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And if it's not in the room with you, somebody in the room knows somebody with access to

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it.

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You are not in a world of scarcity.

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You're in a world of abundance.

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The person who's going to make the biggest difference in your future advancement is,

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drum roll, you.

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You're the one who's going to make it work.

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And you are going to make it work because you know what?

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You've been making it work all your career.

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You started out in med school against all odds you got into med school.

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And then you got into the residency program of your choice.

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And then you finished residency and maybe you're in fellowship, maybe you're a faculty

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member.

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You made it work.

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And no, it wasn't because of the great institution you went to.

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It's because of you.

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You made it work because other people came through that institution and they didn't pass

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through.

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You made it work.

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And so you are the one who is really shepherding your career and leading your career.

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Yes, there are other people who are advising you, who are encouraging you and egging you

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on or encouraging you.

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But ultimately, you are the one who's making it work.

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And so you can bet on yourself.

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You can count on yourself to help you make it through.

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You can count on yourself to help you recognize what you need and to help you find it, to

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help you go after the person who might have it or who might have access to the person

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who has it.

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Ultimately, you're going to succeed in your career because you have everything it takes

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to succeed in your career.

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All right.

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Are you someone who's looking for more insights to succeeding in your role as a clinician

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researcher?

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Well, if you are, definitely reach out and sign up for our weekly newsletter.

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Send me a DM.

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00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:22,260
Let me know how we can continue to serve you on this podcast.

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It's been a pleasure to talk to you.

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I look forward to talking with you again next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.

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See you next time.

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Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

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clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

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have a mentor.

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If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

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Someone else needs to hear it.

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So take a minute right now and share it.

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As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

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of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.