1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,180 program. 7 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,060 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:02,060 Hello everyone. 13 00:01:02,060 --> 00:01:04,500 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 14 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:08,660 I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to be here. 15 00:01:08,660 --> 00:01:14,940 I am super excited about today's episode because we have a very, very, very special guest who's 16 00:01:14,940 --> 00:01:21,180 going to talk to us about how to create writing structures to help you succeed as a clinician 17 00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:22,180 researcher. 18 00:01:22,180 --> 00:01:24,780 And so without further ado, I'm going to have her introduce herself. 19 00:01:24,780 --> 00:01:27,420 Gia, please introduce yourself to the audience. 20 00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:31,540 Hi, thank you so much for having me today. 21 00:01:31,540 --> 00:01:33,420 And yes, I am Jia. 22 00:01:33,420 --> 00:01:38,140 I am a physician researcher and a nephrologist in New York. 23 00:01:38,140 --> 00:01:44,260 And I also started a company called PublishMD where I help clinicians publish research papers 24 00:01:44,260 --> 00:01:47,840 and try to build their authority and also achieve the academic goals. 25 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,340 So I'm here to help you achieve that. 26 00:01:51,340 --> 00:01:52,340 I love it, Gia. 27 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:57,280 So you're a nephrologist, you're a clinician researcher, and you help other people in getting 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,300 their research, moving their research forward as well. 29 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:01,460 So awesome. 30 00:02:01,460 --> 00:02:05,660 I want to start from your journey because the clinician part of you and the part of 31 00:02:05,660 --> 00:02:08,640 you that's the nephrologist makes sense, right? 32 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:12,540 It's the trip we all did to get to the specialty that we got to. 33 00:02:12,540 --> 00:02:17,820 But at what point did you make that transition from clinician as a nephrologist into a research 34 00:02:17,820 --> 00:02:18,820 researcher? 35 00:02:18,820 --> 00:02:21,180 How did that happen for you? 36 00:02:21,180 --> 00:02:27,260 So yeah, I was trained in Malaysia and in Ireland and where a lot of emphasis was on 37 00:02:27,260 --> 00:02:28,260 clinical work. 38 00:02:28,260 --> 00:02:34,300 And when I joined residency, then in the program, we had a lot of quality improvement projects 39 00:02:34,300 --> 00:02:41,220 assigned to us where each year, the second year will meet the first and third year, we'll 40 00:02:41,220 --> 00:02:42,860 do a group project. 41 00:02:42,860 --> 00:02:50,780 And because of that, that exposure, it made me feel interested about asking questions, 42 00:02:50,780 --> 00:02:55,380 asking questions to solve clinical problems, not just one-on-one basis, but for a bigger 43 00:02:55,380 --> 00:02:56,380 impact. 44 00:02:56,380 --> 00:03:01,180 But these projects, even though they were meaningful, they were never published because 45 00:03:01,180 --> 00:03:03,420 it was usually not good enough. 46 00:03:03,420 --> 00:03:06,260 And I decided that I needed more training. 47 00:03:06,260 --> 00:03:10,940 And when I did my fellowship, I took a research fellowship and did my master's in clinical 48 00:03:10,940 --> 00:03:12,700 epidemiology. 49 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:16,140 And then I thought that was enough. 50 00:03:16,140 --> 00:03:21,900 Throughout the three years I did my master's, my fellowship, when I graduated with my master's, 51 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:25,180 all the research done, I had zero publication. 52 00:03:25,180 --> 00:03:31,540 And when you look up trying to do a research position, they don't hire a researcher who 53 00:03:31,540 --> 00:03:33,340 can't publish their science. 54 00:03:33,340 --> 00:03:40,260 And so it was a lot of clinical job offer, but I got lucky actually that somebody, my 55 00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:45,020 current institution invested in me and they said, you know what, I'm going to give you 56 00:03:45,020 --> 00:03:51,700 three years, 50% protected time just to jumpstart, improve yourself. 57 00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:56,340 And because there was my second chance, I told myself, I'm not going to do the same 58 00:03:56,340 --> 00:03:57,340 thing as before. 59 00:03:57,340 --> 00:04:01,980 I'm going to do everything different to make sure I can prove myself that they invested 60 00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:03,020 the right person. 61 00:04:03,020 --> 00:04:07,700 And so within two years, that was a time where there was a mindset shift, that was a major 62 00:04:07,700 --> 00:04:12,300 change in myself, where a lot of things happened. 63 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:16,280 Writing was actually the moment I could not finish a project, I can't publish a paper. 64 00:04:16,280 --> 00:04:18,700 So that was the first investment. 65 00:04:18,700 --> 00:04:25,680 Once I did that, then it snowballed and then I started writing grants and got NIH funding. 66 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:31,060 So that's where the snowball happened and now I'm really into research. 67 00:04:31,060 --> 00:04:32,060 That's super awesome. 68 00:04:32,060 --> 00:04:34,360 I hear so many things in the things you're saying. 69 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,180 So number one, you weren't satisfied with your role as a clinician. 70 00:04:38,180 --> 00:04:42,540 You saw that there were gaps that needed to be filled and you decided that you wanted 71 00:04:42,540 --> 00:04:44,860 to be one of those people to fill those gaps. 72 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:48,940 And I think that you echo the sentiments of many clinicians who are like, this is not 73 00:04:48,940 --> 00:04:49,940 enough. 74 00:04:49,940 --> 00:04:50,940 We're not helping patients. 75 00:04:50,940 --> 00:04:52,740 There's more opportunity here. 76 00:04:52,740 --> 00:04:57,420 And so you took a step further and you did the training, but you didn't have enough training. 77 00:04:57,420 --> 00:05:01,540 And then when you got to the place where you're looking for jobs, you were finding out that 78 00:05:01,540 --> 00:05:05,540 you're not having published actually was working against you. 79 00:05:05,540 --> 00:05:11,420 And what's interesting is that you did have this opportunity to do a 50% protected time 80 00:05:11,420 --> 00:05:18,340 position, but you really took the initiative and you made a substantial investment in yourself 81 00:05:18,340 --> 00:05:22,820 to make this research and the research writing piece work out. 82 00:05:22,820 --> 00:05:26,940 And I want to ask, what did that investment look like if you don't mind sharing? 83 00:05:26,940 --> 00:05:28,020 Yeah. 84 00:05:28,020 --> 00:05:34,820 So investment, sometimes we only think about money, but it was time, money, energy, all 85 00:05:34,820 --> 00:05:36,780 three things together. 86 00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:41,300 And it means that I am not working 40 hours, 40 hour weeks. 87 00:05:41,300 --> 00:05:43,700 I'm working 80 hour weeks. 88 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:48,260 The extra 40 outside of my clinical work is about improving my writing. 89 00:05:48,260 --> 00:05:55,500 So I took courses, any courses I could land my hand off, let my get access to, I will 90 00:05:55,500 --> 00:05:58,580 always join coaching calls. 91 00:05:58,580 --> 00:06:00,780 Every time they ask for, Oh, bring feedback. 92 00:06:00,780 --> 00:06:01,780 I will always bring. 93 00:06:01,780 --> 00:06:04,420 Additionally, I will also do practice. 94 00:06:04,420 --> 00:06:06,540 I will do deliberate practice on my own writing. 95 00:06:06,540 --> 00:06:08,260 People will say, Oh, how do you practice writing? 96 00:06:08,260 --> 00:06:10,020 I actually have like techniques. 97 00:06:10,020 --> 00:06:16,080 I found a book and I was practicing, I'm doing copywork just to download the style of writing. 98 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:21,020 And these additional things I was doing at the site, because I felt that writing was 99 00:06:21,020 --> 00:06:25,280 a core research skill because you can have the data. 100 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:30,580 But if you can't transform the data into a compelling story, all your research, three 101 00:06:30,580 --> 00:06:32,840 years worth of work is useless. 102 00:06:32,840 --> 00:06:38,500 So I felt that if I just need to put the energy into this piece, this big piece, you know, 103 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:40,260 that was the first thing I could think of. 104 00:06:40,260 --> 00:06:43,860 There were other pieces, but I didn't want to be distracted. 105 00:06:43,860 --> 00:06:44,920 Let me get paper out. 106 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,820 So that was what I started with. 107 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:47,820 Absolutely. 108 00:06:47,820 --> 00:06:49,780 Thank you for sharing that. 109 00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:52,900 This idea of time, money, and energy. 110 00:06:52,900 --> 00:06:53,900 It's not just money. 111 00:06:53,900 --> 00:06:55,620 You always think, Oh, it's money. 112 00:06:55,620 --> 00:06:59,220 And sometimes we shy away from that, but it is the time, it is the energy. 113 00:06:59,220 --> 00:07:01,980 And what you're seeing is you work extra hard. 114 00:07:01,980 --> 00:07:05,380 You didn't say, well, my work week is a 40 hour work week. 115 00:07:05,380 --> 00:07:06,380 I'm done. 116 00:07:06,380 --> 00:07:08,460 But you said, this is the extra training that I need. 117 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:11,100 And you made an investment to do it. 118 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:15,500 And it sounds like your hard work paid off and you have all these publications now behind 119 00:07:15,500 --> 00:07:19,140 you and you're actually even teaching people how to publish. 120 00:07:19,140 --> 00:07:21,300 And so I want to just talk about that. 121 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:26,700 How is it that you went from finishing these programs where you hadn't published anything 122 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:30,700 to now where you are actually showing people how to succeed in publishing? 123 00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:33,340 How did that happen? 124 00:07:33,340 --> 00:07:39,060 So it is through these programs, I realized that technique is one thing. 125 00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:40,980 It's like how to write it. 126 00:07:40,980 --> 00:07:46,580 I realized the biggest problem is the mindset in how you structure the time. 127 00:07:46,580 --> 00:07:48,780 So that was actually the biggest piece. 128 00:07:48,780 --> 00:07:53,820 Coming from a clinician black background, it meant that you have a lot of free time. 129 00:07:53,820 --> 00:07:59,740 When you have free time, if you don't structure the time, you are going to end up checking 130 00:07:59,740 --> 00:08:00,740 epic inbox. 131 00:08:00,740 --> 00:08:01,740 You can check email. 132 00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:06,300 You spend too much time speaking on a phone with a patient for an hour, but with no real 133 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:07,500 progress. 134 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:12,580 And so there was a mindset shift, I would say, is embracing myself as a professional 135 00:08:12,580 --> 00:08:13,580 writer. 136 00:08:13,580 --> 00:08:16,460 A professional researcher is a professional writer. 137 00:08:16,460 --> 00:08:19,540 I'm being paid to publish my research work. 138 00:08:19,540 --> 00:08:21,500 So I need to take writing seriously. 139 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:23,900 So I start writing during work hours. 140 00:08:23,900 --> 00:08:25,500 It has to be daily. 141 00:08:25,500 --> 00:08:27,540 I treat that as a clinic. 142 00:08:27,540 --> 00:08:31,420 Like if it's a clinic, I will always show up for my patient. 143 00:08:31,420 --> 00:08:32,420 I'm never late. 144 00:08:32,420 --> 00:08:33,700 I never cancel on them. 145 00:08:33,700 --> 00:08:37,180 So I treat my writing sessions as clinic appointment. 146 00:08:37,180 --> 00:08:41,100 So once I did that, I realized, oh, it's actually not just the writing. 147 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:44,020 I need to move the needle every time. 148 00:08:44,020 --> 00:08:49,620 And as I talk to many people, as a coach people, that is actually the major thing. 149 00:08:49,620 --> 00:08:51,620 They always say they have no time. 150 00:08:51,620 --> 00:08:55,380 But when you break down what they do, oh, they haven't even put in the time to write. 151 00:08:55,380 --> 00:08:58,500 They're hoping to find a sliver of time. 152 00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:00,940 They hope to find inspiration. 153 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:03,820 But when you're a professional, you don't wait for inspiration. 154 00:09:03,820 --> 00:09:05,260 You do the work. 155 00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:10,380 So I think that big mindset shift was key in my success. 156 00:09:10,380 --> 00:09:14,940 And when I talk to people, I realize that's the biggest thing. 157 00:09:14,940 --> 00:09:15,940 That's really great. 158 00:09:15,940 --> 00:09:17,360 I love what you're talking about. 159 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:19,820 It's not just the writing because we're writers. 160 00:09:19,820 --> 00:09:20,820 We're all writing, right? 161 00:09:20,820 --> 00:09:22,220 We're at a writing clinic notes all the time. 162 00:09:22,220 --> 00:09:27,300 But it's the process of writing, the process of creating space for your writing and creating 163 00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:30,180 space to move your work forward. 164 00:09:30,180 --> 00:09:33,340 And without that space, the work doesn't move forward. 165 00:09:33,340 --> 00:09:38,140 And so I love the way you talk about creating structures around your writing and making 166 00:09:38,140 --> 00:09:42,660 sure that you're not waiting for inspiration, but you're actually creating space to be working 167 00:09:42,660 --> 00:09:45,340 so inspiration can hit you while you're in progress. 168 00:09:45,340 --> 00:09:49,640 I wonder if you can speak to what does that writing structure look like for you? 169 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:54,220 And how does someone who's never had a writing structure move from no writing structure into 170 00:09:54,220 --> 00:09:57,220 writing structure? 171 00:09:57,220 --> 00:10:02,020 The two things first is there must be a commitment. 172 00:10:02,020 --> 00:10:04,460 First mindset is always must be there. 173 00:10:04,460 --> 00:10:05,460 You must have a commitment. 174 00:10:05,460 --> 00:10:07,340 You must not give excuses. 175 00:10:07,340 --> 00:10:11,540 We you know, before I went into 50 percent, I was operating. 176 00:10:11,540 --> 00:10:12,620 I was still working. 177 00:10:12,620 --> 00:10:16,180 I tried to squeeze my clinical work 50 percent. 178 00:10:16,180 --> 00:10:18,020 I tried to squeeze it into 25. 179 00:10:18,020 --> 00:10:21,740 So I am pretending I'm working as a 75 percent research. 180 00:10:21,740 --> 00:10:25,900 I put so much research work in that same amount of time. 181 00:10:25,900 --> 00:10:33,220 And in the commitment to putting research as the first thing, that is important commitment. 182 00:10:33,220 --> 00:10:34,720 Second you need to show up. 183 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,940 Show up for the sessions that you have scheduled for. 184 00:10:37,940 --> 00:10:40,460 Number third thing is consistency. 185 00:10:40,460 --> 00:10:47,820 So I am I'm a believer in if you if it's something important enough, you should do it every day 186 00:10:47,820 --> 00:10:50,060 because it just builds the momentum. 187 00:10:50,060 --> 00:10:52,140 It just builds a habit. 188 00:10:52,140 --> 00:10:55,460 And when you do it every day, it just means you don't have to think you don't have to 189 00:10:55,460 --> 00:10:57,260 say, oh, should I write today? 190 00:10:57,260 --> 00:10:58,260 Should I not write today? 191 00:10:58,260 --> 00:10:59,860 He's like, OK, it's 10 a.m. 192 00:10:59,860 --> 00:11:00,860 It's my writing time. 193 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:01,860 I don't have to make a decision. 194 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:03,320 It's my time to do it. 195 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:10,260 So at the beginning, put artificial structures if you need get accountability buddies if 196 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:11,260 you need. 197 00:11:11,260 --> 00:11:14,140 But I would say commitment first, show up in consistency. 198 00:11:14,140 --> 00:11:18,300 These are the three things we need in place as a recipe. 199 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:21,020 Then you can start building a habit. 200 00:11:21,020 --> 00:11:22,020 Thank you, Jia. 201 00:11:22,020 --> 00:11:26,700 Now, one of the things I hear is really and you talked about this with the mindset shift 202 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:30,780 where clinicians at least primarily that was our is our training. 203 00:11:30,780 --> 00:11:33,460 And so the clinical things tend to pull us a lot. 204 00:11:33,460 --> 00:11:38,500 And so in order for us to move to the space of doing research fully, we have to take on 205 00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:42,520 a different identity as writers, as professional writers. 206 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,140 And it has to be part of our daytime job. 207 00:11:44,140 --> 00:11:48,100 It's not the kind of thing we're doing in the background where where there's nobody 208 00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:49,540 and nobody's looking. 209 00:11:49,540 --> 00:11:52,020 It's really part of what we do actively. 210 00:11:52,020 --> 00:11:57,140 And so I wonder what's the biggest resistance that you encounter in your clients when you're 211 00:11:57,140 --> 00:12:02,780 trying to get them to set these structures into place and also have this mindset shift? 212 00:12:02,780 --> 00:12:04,340 I'm so glad you asked this question. 213 00:12:04,340 --> 00:12:09,860 I given this advice so many times and the number one objection, they will always say, 214 00:12:09,860 --> 00:12:16,020 but my patients need I need to fit the patient in, you know, a few bad my patient. 215 00:12:16,020 --> 00:12:17,780 I came in to become a doctor. 216 00:12:17,780 --> 00:12:20,340 I can't say no to my patient. 217 00:12:20,340 --> 00:12:24,860 And in telling the then I was say this. 218 00:12:24,860 --> 00:12:25,860 Yeah, exactly. 219 00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:27,580 Your patients come first. 220 00:12:27,580 --> 00:12:32,660 When you sit down and write a paper and publish your science, you are helping not just one 221 00:12:32,660 --> 00:12:33,660 patient. 222 00:12:33,660 --> 00:12:37,620 You're helping a thousand patients, your future patients. 223 00:12:37,620 --> 00:12:38,820 That's the impact. 224 00:12:38,820 --> 00:12:41,060 So don't think that you are saying no to one patient. 225 00:12:41,060 --> 00:12:45,280 You're actually saying no to a thousand patients when you are saying no to your brain. 226 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,140 So I think not everybody buys that. 227 00:12:48,140 --> 00:12:50,140 But I think you need to buy that as a researcher. 228 00:12:50,140 --> 00:12:52,940 You go into research for impact, not just one. 229 00:12:52,940 --> 00:12:54,180 We do love the one on one. 230 00:12:54,180 --> 00:12:56,820 That's where we still keep on the clinical work. 231 00:12:56,820 --> 00:12:58,740 But we want to do more. 232 00:12:58,740 --> 00:13:04,180 Researchers want to do more impact and move science forward and having this mindset should 233 00:13:04,180 --> 00:13:05,180 sit down. 234 00:13:05,180 --> 00:13:08,980 I am helping my thousands of patients who are in the future. 235 00:13:08,980 --> 00:13:09,980 That is the biggest mindset. 236 00:13:09,980 --> 00:13:10,980 I love it. 237 00:13:10,980 --> 00:13:11,980 I love it. 238 00:13:11,980 --> 00:13:17,300 And also, I think one of the things you point to is that we're not here just to dabble a 239 00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:18,300 little bit in research. 240 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:19,300 Like, I'll just do a project. 241 00:13:19,300 --> 00:13:21,300 Let's do a project there. 242 00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:25,420 We're really leading change because the reason we've gone into research is because we see 243 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:27,580 gaps. 244 00:13:27,580 --> 00:13:31,140 If clinical care was perfect, then we wouldn't even need to be doing research. 245 00:13:31,140 --> 00:13:33,780 But we're doing research because we see gaps. 246 00:13:33,780 --> 00:13:38,580 And so in a sense, it's an obligation, having found answers to some of those gaps, to let 247 00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:41,940 other people know so that people can change clinical practice. 248 00:13:41,940 --> 00:13:47,180 So in a sense, it's an obligation not just to the patients before us, but really, yes, 249 00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:49,420 as you say, future patients. 250 00:13:49,420 --> 00:13:54,980 And it's a different way of thinking, but definitely an important mindset shift to have. 251 00:13:54,980 --> 00:14:02,820 I wonder for you, as you are now going from coaching clients and really helping people 252 00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:10,660 move their research forward, who are the clients who've had the biggest successes and why? 253 00:14:10,660 --> 00:14:13,860 So the biggest successes are those who show up. 254 00:14:13,860 --> 00:14:16,700 Those who show up are calls. 255 00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:23,100 Those who go through the program, like the digital course, some people will buy, but 256 00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:25,180 they never respond to emails anymore. 257 00:14:25,180 --> 00:14:28,860 And then you see them, they have never logged in. 258 00:14:28,860 --> 00:14:29,860 You buy it. 259 00:14:29,860 --> 00:14:33,580 But some people believe that just because they buy something, they get results. 260 00:14:33,580 --> 00:14:36,380 You actually need to go in and do the work. 261 00:14:36,380 --> 00:14:37,900 And research is not easy. 262 00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:40,360 And you actually need to put in the work. 263 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,400 Some reality check there. 264 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:49,260 People are hoping to join the program and get easily fixed, but the jump between a clinician 265 00:14:49,260 --> 00:14:55,460 to researcher, the skill set is so different that there are so many layers and so many 266 00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:57,640 pieces you need to build. 267 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,380 And it's not like you just need one piece. 268 00:14:59,380 --> 00:15:02,960 You need the threshold of, I need these six skills together. 269 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,820 Then I can publish a paper. 270 00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:10,380 And those who don't show up usually are because, oh, I only did one piece and I don't see a 271 00:15:10,380 --> 00:15:11,380 result. 272 00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:14,780 But the people who get success are, they fill in the writing piece. 273 00:15:14,780 --> 00:15:18,180 They also learn the research, they know how to ask the research question. 274 00:15:18,180 --> 00:15:20,700 They learn the process of doing everything. 275 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:22,100 They complete the project. 276 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:23,260 That's also important. 277 00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:27,660 So these are the few components that make somebody successful. 278 00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:28,660 Thank you for sharing that. 279 00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:33,260 One of the things that brings to mind is when you think about the people that we are competing 280 00:15:33,260 --> 00:15:38,340 against, so to speak, when we submit for funding, they're PhDs who've been doing research for 281 00:15:38,340 --> 00:15:40,060 years and years. 282 00:15:40,060 --> 00:15:43,220 And they've not just been doing research on the side, they've been fully doing research 283 00:15:43,220 --> 00:15:45,580 as part of their whole experience. 284 00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:48,860 And so as you talk about, it's a whole shift. 285 00:15:48,860 --> 00:15:51,620 There's a whole different skill set that's needed. 286 00:15:51,620 --> 00:15:53,700 And it really does take time and investment. 287 00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:58,480 And I wonder if the challenges people may experience has to do with, well, I haven't 288 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,580 created the time and the structures to move this forward. 289 00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:04,740 But if I just pay for a program, it's going to fix everything. 290 00:16:04,740 --> 00:16:10,140 And as you said, it's like making the investment is one thing, but that's just an investment 291 00:16:10,140 --> 00:16:11,620 of money. 292 00:16:11,620 --> 00:16:13,380 Time is necessary as well. 293 00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:15,380 And that's the theory as well. 294 00:16:15,380 --> 00:16:16,380 So it's a whole package. 295 00:16:16,380 --> 00:16:18,620 Yeah, it's a whole package. 296 00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:19,620 Yeah. 297 00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:21,860 What about people who say, well, I have a great mentor. 298 00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:22,860 I don't need this. 299 00:16:22,860 --> 00:16:25,980 What would you say to them? 300 00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:29,460 I love this question because let me share a quick story. 301 00:16:29,460 --> 00:16:34,180 So when I was writing my grant, my research grant, I have excellent mentors. 302 00:16:34,180 --> 00:16:37,660 I have one who is in the right space and a different institution. 303 00:16:37,660 --> 00:16:38,940 I have one who's so... 304 00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:43,820 I have like a whole team of amazing mentors to guide me. 305 00:16:43,820 --> 00:16:50,700 And yet I paid for a $5,000 bootcamp that lasted only for eight weeks to write my research 306 00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:51,700 grant. 307 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:57,100 And my reasoning, my reasoning was they are good, but I'm not good enough. 308 00:16:57,100 --> 00:17:02,940 So for them to help me, they need to tip... 309 00:17:02,940 --> 00:17:06,860 I want to go from good to great or great to extraordinary. 310 00:17:06,860 --> 00:17:11,680 I want my grant application to be excellent. 311 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:18,200 But if I'm only like okay average, my mentor can only pull me up to good and that's good. 312 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,600 So I felt that I needed to bring myself to great so that they can bring my application 313 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,660 from great to extraordinary because I don't want to waste time. 314 00:17:26,660 --> 00:17:32,780 I want to submit the best grant I have in the very first try so that I can get it. 315 00:17:32,780 --> 00:17:33,780 You know, that's my goal. 316 00:17:33,780 --> 00:17:39,220 I hear people say, oh, you know, key grants, you get it in the second or third try. 317 00:17:39,220 --> 00:17:41,460 I don't want to waste time. 318 00:17:41,460 --> 00:17:42,620 I want to go for the big kill. 319 00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:44,220 I want to get it first time. 320 00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:46,620 And because of that mindset, I do things differently. 321 00:17:46,620 --> 00:17:47,660 I need to push everything. 322 00:17:47,660 --> 00:17:50,900 I need to optimize every part as I could. 323 00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:51,940 Mentor is one of them. 324 00:17:51,940 --> 00:17:54,100 My own skill is another one of them. 325 00:17:54,100 --> 00:17:58,280 And so because of that two-parry, I did get my grant the first time around. 326 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:04,180 And so I felt that the $5,000 was worth the money because, you know, $5,000 to get a million 327 00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:07,900 dollars, that's a huge ROI if you think about it that way. 328 00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:09,900 No, that's super awesome, Jia. 329 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:11,500 And it's so funny. 330 00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:14,260 It's like, wait a minute, you paid $5,000? 331 00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:15,260 What? 332 00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:18,980 What about people who are like, well, if my institution is not going to pay it, why should 333 00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:19,980 I pay it? 334 00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:22,940 What do you have to say about that? 335 00:18:22,940 --> 00:18:23,940 Great question. 336 00:18:23,940 --> 00:18:32,940 So when you pay for programs yourself, you keep the skill. 337 00:18:32,940 --> 00:18:36,780 It doesn't matter who pays for it, but at the end, who comes up with the skill? 338 00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:38,000 I take it back. 339 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,260 When I pay for it myself, it means I believe in myself. 340 00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:48,260 When I believe in myself, the most important thing, we have to be sold on ourselves. 341 00:18:48,260 --> 00:18:52,740 If our programs are not sold on us and not willing to pay for us, we have to be sold 342 00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:58,020 on ourselves, on our goals, on our ambition that we are willing to pay for ourselves. 343 00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:02,380 If we can do it, then we can achieve it. 344 00:19:02,380 --> 00:19:05,780 But if we are not even sold, then if nobody's going to pay, that means you're not going 345 00:19:05,780 --> 00:19:06,780 to invest in yourself. 346 00:19:06,780 --> 00:19:10,140 No, I'm going to do whatever I need to get there. 347 00:19:10,140 --> 00:19:14,900 So yeah, so to me, and at the end, you hold the skill. 348 00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:16,700 It doesn't matter who paid for it. 349 00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:20,300 At the end, you learn through this and you keep the skill and you can bring your skill 350 00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:23,900 wherever at the institution, wherever you go. 351 00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:26,260 Thank you for speaking to that, Gia. 352 00:19:26,260 --> 00:19:31,140 I think one of the things that's so important and I think can be challenging for us because 353 00:19:31,140 --> 00:19:34,260 as clinicians, we've gone through this training where people tell us, this is what you're 354 00:19:34,260 --> 00:19:36,500 supposed to do and this is what you end up with. 355 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:37,540 This is what you're supposed to do. 356 00:19:37,540 --> 00:19:38,940 This is what you end up with. 357 00:19:38,940 --> 00:19:43,000 When we start our faculty careers, we are leading our own careers. 358 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,940 But sometimes that transition doesn't happen for people and they're still very much like, 359 00:19:46,940 --> 00:19:48,620 well, what do you want me to do? 360 00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:50,140 How do you want me to be? 361 00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:53,940 But really what happens when you decide, wait a minute, I'm doing this for me. 362 00:19:53,940 --> 00:19:56,300 This is what I want to succeed in for myself. 363 00:19:56,300 --> 00:20:00,780 Then you don't wait for someone to say, oh, I might be able to give you a couple of thousand 364 00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:04,420 dollars or I don't really think that program is for you. 365 00:20:04,420 --> 00:20:07,340 You're making decisions because you're the one who's going to benefit. 366 00:20:07,340 --> 00:20:08,940 I love the way you put that. 367 00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:10,460 It's like, this is for me. 368 00:20:10,460 --> 00:20:14,740 And at the end, I get to keep the skills and these skills matter to me because I'm going 369 00:20:14,740 --> 00:20:18,060 to do this again and again, and I'm going to coach other people to do it. 370 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:20,580 And so of course, make the investment. 371 00:20:20,580 --> 00:20:25,980 And so I really appreciate that you shared that because even for me, when I first started, 372 00:20:25,980 --> 00:20:29,380 there was this sense of like, well, okay, if they don't feel like I need it, maybe I 373 00:20:29,380 --> 00:20:32,140 don't need it, but it's not for them. 374 00:20:32,140 --> 00:20:33,140 It's for me. 375 00:20:33,140 --> 00:20:36,220 I wonder if there's anything else you want to add to that. 376 00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:38,220 No, no, absolutely. 377 00:20:38,220 --> 00:20:39,220 It's not for them. 378 00:20:39,220 --> 00:20:40,220 It's for me. 379 00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:45,020 They may want to invest in you, but you have to be the person who really needs to invest 380 00:20:45,020 --> 00:20:46,620 it is yourself. 381 00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:49,340 You need to be invested in yourself. 382 00:20:49,340 --> 00:20:50,340 Absolutely. 383 00:20:50,340 --> 00:20:51,340 Absolutely. 384 00:20:51,340 --> 00:20:53,940 So Gia, you know, it's funny. 385 00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:57,540 I feel like with all of your, all you've been saying, it's almost like, well, that's so 386 00:20:57,540 --> 00:20:59,060 easy for Gia. 387 00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:01,380 She's clearly sailed through life. 388 00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:06,900 I want you to speak to the challenges you've experienced along the way first for yourself 389 00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:11,620 in making that transition and also as someone who's now coaching other people and making 390 00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:13,620 that transition. 391 00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:20,740 Yeah, I think my biggest one, the biggest obstacle was when I finished my fellowship 392 00:21:20,740 --> 00:21:25,580 and couldn't find a proper job, a research job, right? 393 00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:31,700 I was hoping my institution would keep me as faculty, but I could sense that they were 394 00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:37,020 not willing to keep me because I don't have anything to show for. 395 00:21:37,020 --> 00:21:38,540 So that was one. 396 00:21:38,540 --> 00:21:45,060 Even with when I first joined the faculty, I was worried, what if I can't, you know, 397 00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:47,180 three years, what if I can't get any publication? 398 00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:49,140 What if I can't get grants? 399 00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:54,500 So these were also obstacles I had. 400 00:21:54,500 --> 00:22:02,540 I think finally for the coaching clients, the other obstacles I see are the misaligned 401 00:22:02,540 --> 00:22:09,500 incentives that we do see in the system, not just personal, where you were told that you 402 00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:19,380 need to help with papers, but you're not given the time or the space to do scholarly activity. 403 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:27,140 And then, you know, anything, they keep putting patients, more service time on the surface. 404 00:22:27,140 --> 00:22:32,460 They say, oh yeah, we promote people to become associate professor, but there's no time. 405 00:22:32,460 --> 00:22:37,300 Having said that, we have to accept what we have in that situation. 406 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:40,020 You either get out of it or you take charge. 407 00:22:40,020 --> 00:22:44,500 You know, if you can't change it, if you can't change your surrounding, you change yourself. 408 00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:48,260 So see what you can do to get out of the situation. 409 00:22:48,260 --> 00:22:52,900 And one final thing I would say as well is clinicians sometimes forget what the true 410 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:55,100 metric is to be a researcher. 411 00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:58,980 The real metric is publication in grant funding. 412 00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:03,460 If you don't get that, it doesn't matter how good your teaching is, it doesn't matter 413 00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:06,420 how good your evaluations are. 414 00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:13,020 If your institution's metric for academia or promotion is publication, you need to know 415 00:23:13,020 --> 00:23:14,260 the rules of the game. 416 00:23:14,260 --> 00:23:16,540 And sometimes people don't want to look at that. 417 00:23:16,540 --> 00:23:17,540 They ignore it. 418 00:23:17,540 --> 00:23:20,820 And then five years later, they realize that, oh, I did not reach my metric. 419 00:23:20,820 --> 00:23:22,900 And so what you have nothing to show for. 420 00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:27,820 So that is kind of also another barrier, not knowing the rules of the game. 421 00:23:27,820 --> 00:23:32,300 You know, when you're joining any game, you need to know how do you score, what the rules 422 00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:33,300 are. 423 00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:34,300 Yeah. 424 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:35,300 I love that. 425 00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:36,300 I love that. 426 00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:38,180 I have to, you know, it reminds me of something I hear often. 427 00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:40,660 People say, well, we want you to be a team player. 428 00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:44,820 And you know, usually I have to say, I feel like that's often said of women who are sometimes 429 00:23:44,820 --> 00:23:48,420 not given enough resources and they're like, just be a team player, just accept what you're 430 00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:49,420 given. 431 00:23:49,420 --> 00:23:53,160 And I love it because it's like, what is the game we're playing? 432 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,900 And how do we know when we win? 433 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:58,020 It's so important to ask that question, what is the game? 434 00:23:58,020 --> 00:24:02,500 Because sometimes being a team player means, well, you let the other people who we've selected 435 00:24:02,500 --> 00:24:06,240 out to be successful win, and then you support them. 436 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,580 And if it's fine, that's what you want to do. 437 00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:12,100 But if really what you're doing is leading your own research and leading your research 438 00:24:12,100 --> 00:24:16,900 program, then you want to make sure that you're playing a game that makes sense for you. 439 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:19,740 And then at the end you win and you know when you win. 440 00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:23,220 And so I love where you started, where you were like, when you were first looking for 441 00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:25,380 a job, it wasn't the job you wanted. 442 00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:30,500 At least you didn't find the job that really supported you as a clinician researcher. 443 00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:34,980 And you went looking for what that job would be. 444 00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:38,340 And I appreciate the advice you give where it's like, well, you have a choice. 445 00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:42,340 You may not, you can't control your institution and whether they choose to support you or 446 00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:45,140 not, but you can choose how you respond to it. 447 00:24:45,140 --> 00:24:49,420 Whether you're going to stay at the institution and find other ways to support yourself, or 448 00:24:49,420 --> 00:24:54,180 you're going to choose a different institution that actually provides you the support that 449 00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:55,220 you need. 450 00:24:55,220 --> 00:25:00,700 And so what I hear you saying is that we have agency, we are in charge of our careers, we 451 00:25:00,700 --> 00:25:02,340 are leading our careers. 452 00:25:02,340 --> 00:25:07,180 And just because other people say no to us doesn't mean we should say no to ourselves. 453 00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:08,180 Absolutely. 454 00:25:08,180 --> 00:25:14,360 I want to riff on your saying about team player too, because that's such a great point. 455 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:16,300 How our division works. 456 00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:24,340 When I do research, I'm being a team player, because how we view our division is one person 457 00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:30,820 does oncology, one person does stone, and we all have our own roles to bring the whole 458 00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:31,820 division up. 459 00:25:31,820 --> 00:25:36,420 So my role was actually to be a researcher so that we can bring up the prestige. 460 00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:37,420 We can bring up. 461 00:25:37,420 --> 00:25:41,200 So when I say no to clinic patients, when I say, I know I can't do so much service time 462 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,140 because I need to get grants. 463 00:25:43,140 --> 00:25:49,460 I need to get, it builds up the prestige and builds up the publication of the numbers of 464 00:25:49,460 --> 00:25:50,460 the division. 465 00:25:50,460 --> 00:25:52,340 I am being a team player. 466 00:25:52,340 --> 00:25:57,300 So we can't always think about team player being just do the things equally, but what 467 00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,700 are we doing as our role? 468 00:25:59,700 --> 00:26:03,580 What is our intended role as a true team player? 469 00:26:03,580 --> 00:26:04,580 I love it. 470 00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:05,580 I love it. 471 00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:08,700 I want to speak more to that because it's like, if we think about, let's say a game 472 00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:11,020 of basketball and I don't even really play basketball. 473 00:26:11,020 --> 00:26:16,100 So it's not me, but there are people whose job it is to defend and their job is a little 474 00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:19,540 bit different from those whose job it is to score. 475 00:26:19,540 --> 00:26:22,700 So that for the people who are defending to say, well, we're going to leave our defending 476 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:24,220 and go do this work. 477 00:26:24,220 --> 00:26:26,020 They're not going to do it as well. 478 00:26:26,020 --> 00:26:30,820 And so for us too, it's that, well, if this is the work we've been brought on to do, if 479 00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:34,260 this is the work we want to do, we've really got to succeed well. 480 00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:38,380 And so when somebody says, I didn't see as many patients as I did, you have to take a 481 00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:42,860 step back and say, what is it that I'm uniquely qualified to do? 482 00:26:42,860 --> 00:26:44,420 And am I doing that? 483 00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:47,660 Or am I doing something that somebody else actually could do for me? 484 00:26:47,660 --> 00:26:49,900 Somebody else could easily do and take my place. 485 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:54,340 And I think that's really important because in your field, there are not many researchers 486 00:26:54,340 --> 00:26:57,580 that are moving the work that you're moving forward. 487 00:26:57,580 --> 00:27:01,660 And I bet at your institution, if you stopped your program of research, there are not many 488 00:27:01,660 --> 00:27:04,220 people who could step in and just take over. 489 00:27:04,220 --> 00:27:10,900 And so it's important for us to recognize the value we bring and to protect that value. 490 00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:11,900 Yes. 491 00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:12,900 Yes. 492 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:13,900 Yes. 493 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:14,900 And I love the basketball analogy. 494 00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:15,900 I never even thought of it. 495 00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:22,700 Like, yeah, the person who shoots, the person who defends, they all have to feel the weight. 496 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:23,700 Absolutely. 497 00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:28,420 I feel like you've just shared so many wonderful nuggets of wisdom. 498 00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:32,500 And I wonder if there's a clinician right now who's sitting there saying, well, no one's 499 00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:35,260 supporting me, no one's providing resources for me. 500 00:27:35,260 --> 00:27:40,420 I really want to succeed as a clinician researcher or as a physician scientist. 501 00:27:40,420 --> 00:27:44,100 What advice would you have for them? 502 00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:49,100 My first advice would be think about the why. 503 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:52,100 Like why you want to go into research in the first place? 504 00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,940 Is it just you want a pre-publication here and there? 505 00:27:54,940 --> 00:27:59,380 Really, I think if you want to really do research, you have to think about impact. 506 00:27:59,380 --> 00:28:02,020 Who am I going to change? 507 00:28:02,020 --> 00:28:03,020 What is it? 508 00:28:03,020 --> 00:28:04,020 It doesn't matter how. 509 00:28:04,020 --> 00:28:06,540 In fact, you should be thinking big. 510 00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:12,660 The bigger you think, the easier it is for you to overcome the obstacles. 511 00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:17,740 Because if your goal is so small, every small obstacle will get in the way. 512 00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:22,340 But if your goal is so huge, it needs to be able to bulldoze the obstacles. 513 00:28:22,340 --> 00:28:23,340 Right? 514 00:28:23,340 --> 00:28:25,140 Oh, people got rejected. 515 00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:28,140 But my goal is so big, I can work through this. 516 00:28:28,140 --> 00:28:32,180 So your goal is just, I just want to maybe get one or two publications. 517 00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:33,180 All right. 518 00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:34,180 Oh, well. 519 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:35,180 So you need to have this huge goal. 520 00:28:35,180 --> 00:28:36,860 And it has to be so deep. 521 00:28:36,860 --> 00:28:38,900 You truly believe in yourself. 522 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:42,540 Once you do that, then you can work through all the obstacles. 523 00:28:42,540 --> 00:28:45,060 Because research is not to your career. 524 00:28:45,060 --> 00:28:46,540 We're talking about 30-year career. 525 00:28:46,540 --> 00:28:48,700 We are trying to move to science. 526 00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:53,340 You're trying to help patients in thousands. 527 00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:54,340 Thank you, Jia. 528 00:28:54,340 --> 00:28:55,380 I love the way you put it. 529 00:28:55,380 --> 00:28:57,700 It's about what impact do you want to have? 530 00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:03,380 I think as clinicians, we're very big on just helping patients be better, helping patients 531 00:29:03,380 --> 00:29:07,100 manage their disease, or if possible, get a cure from their disease. 532 00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:11,180 And so when we go into research, we have a big picture of the kind of change we want 533 00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:12,180 to move forward. 534 00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:15,380 And in a sense, there's an obligation to that future goal. 535 00:29:15,380 --> 00:29:19,820 If you can get there, think about how many patients, how many lives you'll transform 536 00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:22,660 when we're here and beyond the grave. 537 00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:25,540 Our impact continues whether we're here or not. 538 00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:30,780 And if it's so big, and it is big for so many of us, then that's the goal we keep in front 539 00:29:30,780 --> 00:29:31,780 of us. 540 00:29:31,780 --> 00:29:33,860 And we don't say, oh, there's a little bit of an obstacle here. 541 00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:38,900 We say, no, if I accomplish this thing that I want to do, it's going to be so impactful. 542 00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:40,900 It's going to be so awesome. 543 00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:44,940 I'm going to look back on my career, and I'm going to be so excited that I made the investment, 544 00:29:44,940 --> 00:29:46,700 that I made the sacrifice. 545 00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:49,100 And so absolutely, I love that you put it that way. 546 00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:51,340 It's like, think about your impact. 547 00:29:51,340 --> 00:29:52,340 And it does matter. 548 00:29:52,340 --> 00:29:59,180 It matters that we are aligned with maximizing our value in achieving the impact that we 549 00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:01,180 came to achieve. 550 00:30:01,180 --> 00:30:04,820 No, thank you. 551 00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:09,900 I really appreciate your coming on the show and talking to our audience. 552 00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,420 And I just feel like you just shared so many great insights. 553 00:30:12,420 --> 00:30:16,020 And I want to really thank you for being on the show. 554 00:30:16,020 --> 00:30:18,300 Oh, my pleasure. 555 00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:23,700 It is so good talking to you, because I feel like nobody's listening to me, nobody understands. 556 00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:29,500 And you get it, because you and I have transitioned from recognition to research site and have 557 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:33,420 seen the struggles and the obstacles. 558 00:30:33,420 --> 00:30:38,220 But we did not forget that the whole point of doing this is for impact. 559 00:30:38,220 --> 00:30:42,580 So I really feel like this is a message we all need to be talking about. 560 00:30:42,580 --> 00:30:43,580 Absolutely. 561 00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:44,580 Absolutely. 562 00:30:44,580 --> 00:30:45,580 Thank you, Jia. 563 00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:51,100 And hey, for those of you who are listening, if you've heard this podcast episode and you're 564 00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:55,460 like, somebody else needs to hear this, I want to ask you, I want to invite you to share 565 00:30:55,460 --> 00:31:00,460 this episode with as many people as possible who need this inspiration that comes from 566 00:31:00,460 --> 00:31:01,740 Jia today. 567 00:31:01,740 --> 00:31:06,460 And if you're a mentor and you're like, well, one mentee or two may benefit from hearing 568 00:31:06,460 --> 00:31:10,620 this, please definitely share with them, because there are so many clinicians who have a desire 569 00:31:10,620 --> 00:31:14,420 to make great impact, and they don't know the first place to start. 570 00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:18,780 Or they settled into a clinical career that's not really fulfilling them because they're 571 00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:20,580 not doing the research piece. 572 00:31:20,580 --> 00:31:24,760 So please share this podcast episode with someone else today so that their lives can 573 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,100 be transformed as well. 574 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:27,100 All right. 575 00:31:27,100 --> 00:31:29,260 It's been such a pleasure talking to you all today. 576 00:31:29,260 --> 00:31:34,220 I want to thank you for listening, and I look forward to talking with you again next time. 577 00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:43,620 Take care. 578 00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:48,940 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic 579 00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:54,420 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 580 00:31:54,420 --> 00:31:55,740 have a mentor. 581 00:31:55,740 --> 00:32:01,860 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 582 00:32:01,860 --> 00:32:03,580 Someone else needs to hear it. 583 00:32:03,580 --> 00:32:07,660 So take a minute right now and share it. 584 00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:13,100 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 585 00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:19,060 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.