1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,180 program. 7 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,060 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:02,060 Hi everyone. 13 00:01:02,060 --> 00:01:04,660 This is Toyosi Onwuemene on the Clinician Researcher podcast. 14 00:01:04,660 --> 00:01:07,260 So happy to be here talking to you today. 15 00:01:07,260 --> 00:01:13,180 I'm super excited because we have an absolutely amazing guest with us today, Dr. David Sykes. 16 00:01:13,180 --> 00:01:16,720 He's going to introduce himself in a minute, but I'm super excited about what he's going 17 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,220 to share with you today. 18 00:01:18,220 --> 00:01:23,400 So without further ado, Dr. David Sykes, welcome to the show. 19 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,660 Thank you very much for inviting me. 20 00:01:24,660 --> 00:01:26,780 It's great to be here. 21 00:01:26,780 --> 00:01:31,840 So if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself briefly to our audience, tell us a little 22 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,460 bit in your introduction about your journey to become a clinician scientist. 23 00:01:36,460 --> 00:01:38,020 No, thank you. 24 00:01:38,020 --> 00:01:43,740 So I'm currently an assistant professor at the Massachusetts General Hospital, and I 25 00:01:43,740 --> 00:01:47,860 run a basic science lab, mostly about four days a week, and then I still see patients 26 00:01:47,860 --> 00:01:52,480 and clinics on Friday afternoons and attend on the hematology consult service for four 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:53,920 weeks a year. 28 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,580 The journey here, I think was in a sense pretty straightforward and then some hiccups along 29 00:01:58,580 --> 00:02:03,900 the way, but I did my undergraduate work up in the University of Alberta up in Canada. 30 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:09,500 So chilly, chilly, and then did a full 180 and did my MD, PhD down at University of California 31 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:12,920 in San Diego and came out to Boston for residency. 32 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:16,120 Was only going to stay here for three years and now I've been here for 19 years. 33 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:18,500 So got stuck on the East Coast. 34 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:19,500 Sure. 35 00:02:19,500 --> 00:02:23,100 Sounds like you've had fun along the way. 36 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:24,460 It's certainly an adventure. 37 00:02:24,460 --> 00:02:28,220 And I'm one of the people where now I wonder if I should be allowed to give advice because 38 00:02:28,220 --> 00:02:33,980 of course I'm self-selected for someone who's overtly optimistic even in the face of many 39 00:02:33,980 --> 00:02:34,980 failures. 40 00:02:34,980 --> 00:02:38,460 So any advice for me should be taken with a grain of salt for sure. 41 00:02:38,460 --> 00:02:42,980 No, I definitely appreciate your insights, which I think are going to be valuable to 42 00:02:42,980 --> 00:02:43,980 our audience. 43 00:02:43,980 --> 00:02:53,660 Now you and I were interviewers on a recent, we did at the, the Ash R. Taft applications. 44 00:02:53,660 --> 00:02:58,340 We had interview, we had interviewees who were interviewing with us and we had a chance 45 00:02:58,340 --> 00:03:03,460 to look at candidates and really evaluate them from the perspective of how they present 46 00:03:03,460 --> 00:03:06,220 their research, how they talk about it. 47 00:03:06,220 --> 00:03:11,340 And I wanted you to talk a little bit about what that process was like from the perspective 48 00:03:11,340 --> 00:03:14,260 of the interviewer. 49 00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:15,260 Yeah. 50 00:03:15,260 --> 00:03:18,940 And as you said, that's a bit of a unique opportunity. 51 00:03:18,940 --> 00:03:25,020 Not a lot of grants have a built in in-person interview and certainly it lends, I think 52 00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:28,940 a whole other level, which is very important, which is to get to meet the people and put 53 00:03:28,940 --> 00:03:32,760 a face and, and a name to their grant application. 54 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:36,660 So often you're reviewing grant applications only on paper. 55 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:40,920 And I think, and I think you would agree, you know, you learn a lot in that 25 minute 56 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:45,500 interview that you'd never learned from that six page or, you know, more application. 57 00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:46,500 So I think it is good. 58 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:51,060 And then I had the, you know, the strange, not the strange, but the, the added thing 59 00:03:51,060 --> 00:03:56,660 where I was actually an interviewee for the R. Tafts, you know, many years previously. 60 00:03:56,660 --> 00:04:00,180 So I'd sort of seen it come full circle and yeah, there's not too many grants where you 61 00:04:00,180 --> 00:04:03,340 actually get to go and kind of present yourself in person. 62 00:04:03,340 --> 00:04:04,340 Sure. 63 00:04:04,340 --> 00:04:06,420 And, and, and thank you for, for pointing that out. 64 00:04:06,420 --> 00:04:07,420 It's true. 65 00:04:07,420 --> 00:04:08,420 It is quite, quite rare. 66 00:04:08,420 --> 00:04:13,320 I would call you that in addition to the R. Taft, the ASHA and FTP award is another one 67 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,060 of those where you actually do interview in person. 68 00:04:16,060 --> 00:04:19,700 And there might be a grant from the borough's welcome fund as well, where you interview 69 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:20,700 in person. 70 00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:25,320 So even though they don't, they're not that common, there are enough of those opportunities 71 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,980 that I think it's definitely worth talking about how candidates should best prepare to 72 00:04:29,980 --> 00:04:32,160 answer questions about their research. 73 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,740 And so that's a question I'm going to ask you, but I'm also going to make the comment 74 00:04:34,740 --> 00:04:39,740 that we had an interesting experience where candidates looked great on paper. 75 00:04:39,740 --> 00:04:41,780 Their grants were so awesome. 76 00:04:41,780 --> 00:04:45,940 And then when we met them, there was a gap between what was on paper and what was, what 77 00:04:45,940 --> 00:04:47,600 was presented in person. 78 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,540 So I want you to answer that question for our listeners about how can candidates prepare 79 00:04:52,540 --> 00:04:54,500 to answer questions about their research? 80 00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:56,020 No, and thanks for that. 81 00:04:56,020 --> 00:04:58,860 I mean, obviously you're absolutely right. 82 00:04:58,860 --> 00:05:03,500 We did have that feeling where you wanted people to really shine based on what we read 83 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:05,260 about them maybe or based on. 84 00:05:05,260 --> 00:05:08,540 And then, yeah, maybe just something disconnects there. 85 00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:09,840 I did write down a couple of notes. 86 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:14,060 And so I'll sort of turn to those because I did want to be somewhat coherent. 87 00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:18,940 But one of the things I thought that was maybe the most important for someone is to have 88 00:05:18,940 --> 00:05:22,100 the ability to put their research into context. 89 00:05:22,100 --> 00:05:28,300 And by that, I mean, I think sometimes people assume that the interview, interviewers know 90 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:29,300 more than we do, right? 91 00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:34,620 I mean, I think we are trained and I'm trained in maybe neutro-viral disorders. 92 00:05:34,620 --> 00:05:39,140 And I like to think that I have a fairly broad hematologic base, but deep down, I don't know 93 00:05:39,140 --> 00:05:41,780 the nitty gritty of every CAR T cell trial. 94 00:05:41,780 --> 00:05:46,900 And I certainly don't know the nitty gritty of every follicular lymphoma diagnosis. 95 00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:51,760 So the ability, I think, to really put it into context and frame how the candidate's 96 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,140 project is maybe different than what's been done before, how it builds on what's been 97 00:05:56,140 --> 00:05:57,820 done before. 98 00:05:57,820 --> 00:06:01,620 And then really, how is it going to answer an important question? 99 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:04,900 Because sometimes if you don't know the field well enough, you don't know what the important 100 00:06:04,900 --> 00:06:06,180 questions are. 101 00:06:06,180 --> 00:06:10,540 And so not assuming that everybody knows the important question and really explicitly be 102 00:06:10,540 --> 00:06:13,000 able to say, this is why we're doing this. 103 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,340 This is why it's important. 104 00:06:14,340 --> 00:06:19,580 And one of my mentors had a good phrase where he would put at the end of every grant, he'd 105 00:06:19,580 --> 00:06:23,420 say, if this is successful, this is what we will have accomplished. 106 00:06:23,420 --> 00:06:25,820 And I think that's a nice way to look at it. 107 00:06:25,820 --> 00:06:29,660 Because if you are successful in your grant, great, and we want you to be successful, are 108 00:06:29,660 --> 00:06:33,660 you going to accomplish something that's just sort of an incremental advance? 109 00:06:33,660 --> 00:06:36,980 Are you really going to accomplish something that's a big advance? 110 00:06:36,980 --> 00:06:43,180 But being able to tell us in a succinct fashion, yeah, putting that into context and giving 111 00:06:43,180 --> 00:06:47,020 it, I think, is just such an important attribute. 112 00:06:47,020 --> 00:06:48,940 Thank you for pointing that out, David. 113 00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:50,580 It's what I'm hearing you say. 114 00:06:50,580 --> 00:06:55,980 It's really about making sure you understand that this is really a long term strategy. 115 00:06:55,980 --> 00:06:57,060 It's a long goal. 116 00:06:57,060 --> 00:07:00,740 So we're not just doing a project just to say we participated in a project, but we're 117 00:07:00,740 --> 00:07:05,380 doing a project that takes us somewhere that potentially leads to something, a really awesome 118 00:07:05,380 --> 00:07:07,060 outcome at the end of the road. 119 00:07:07,060 --> 00:07:12,220 And for candidates to be able to step away from the project and enter, in a sense, look 120 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:18,220 at the forest instead of just the trees to say, this is really why this project is important, 121 00:07:18,220 --> 00:07:21,460 or we can go next with it if we're successful. 122 00:07:21,460 --> 00:07:22,460 100%. 123 00:07:22,460 --> 00:07:23,460 Yeah. 124 00:07:23,460 --> 00:07:29,460 And having, I think sometimes there's a tendency to be maybe more general or say, oh, this 125 00:07:29,460 --> 00:07:34,620 is going to advance knowledge or advance our understanding of, I think you would probably 126 00:07:34,620 --> 00:07:40,020 agree, I love it when people are very specific and can really put a much more tangible maybe 127 00:07:40,020 --> 00:07:44,860 and a much more, yeah, just a very specific feel of what they're going to do. 128 00:07:44,860 --> 00:07:49,220 If they're going to develop an app that's going to help with the diagnosis, tell us 129 00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:50,220 that. 130 00:07:50,220 --> 00:07:55,300 If you're going to do a whole bunch of Western blots and try to figure out combination therapy 131 00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:56,300 or something, that's important. 132 00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:59,300 But being very specific, I think is helpful. 133 00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:05,180 It gives us a sense that one, you're invested, you know what you're talking about, you've 134 00:08:05,180 --> 00:08:10,460 got a sense of what are the steps that are required to advance to that goal. 135 00:08:10,460 --> 00:08:13,560 And then be able to say, look, yes, if all of these Western blots work, if all these 136 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,740 analog experiments work, if all these CAR T cells work, how are we, Ariane, in two years 137 00:08:18,740 --> 00:08:21,940 or five years, how will we have advanced the shield? 138 00:08:21,940 --> 00:08:22,940 That's awesome. 139 00:08:22,940 --> 00:08:23,940 Thank you, David. 140 00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:29,420 So my second question is, so when candidates describe their research, what is the most 141 00:08:29,420 --> 00:08:34,420 important thing or group of things that they should make sure that they communicate? 142 00:08:34,420 --> 00:08:36,780 Yeah, this is a hard one. 143 00:08:36,780 --> 00:08:42,100 And I think, you know, these days, I think we all understand you can't be expected to 144 00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:43,100 know everything. 145 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:48,980 You know, you can't be a perfect bioinformatician and a computer programmer and do all the cell 146 00:08:48,980 --> 00:08:51,180 culture and collect the samples. 147 00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:55,220 And so I think we all understand there's definitely some team science, which is a huge thing. 148 00:08:55,220 --> 00:08:59,660 And I certainly, we want to applaud and champion team science. 149 00:08:59,660 --> 00:09:03,180 But that being said, when you're presenting yourself in a brief interview, it's great 150 00:09:03,180 --> 00:09:05,260 to tell people, what is your role? 151 00:09:05,260 --> 00:09:06,260 Right? 152 00:09:06,260 --> 00:09:11,220 Are you someone who's going to collect the samples, put them on the flow cytometer, you 153 00:09:11,220 --> 00:09:15,900 know, compensate everything, and then give the sequencing data to somebody else? 154 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:16,900 That's great. 155 00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:19,580 You know, just like, I think, but it's very important, I think, to define that role. 156 00:09:19,580 --> 00:09:23,020 One because one, we don't believe you if you say you're going to do everything, because 157 00:09:23,020 --> 00:09:24,520 it's almost impossible. 158 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,700 But also two, it shows us, oh, how do you fit into this team? 159 00:09:28,700 --> 00:09:34,900 And not to say, you know, obviously it'd be great to do many things, but nobody expects 160 00:09:34,900 --> 00:09:36,380 you to do everything. 161 00:09:36,380 --> 00:09:39,740 And so having a sense of, oh, I've thought this through, I am going to need some help 162 00:09:39,740 --> 00:09:40,740 with the biostatistic. 163 00:09:40,740 --> 00:09:42,380 I am going to need some help. 164 00:09:42,380 --> 00:09:46,780 But what I'm going to take ownership of, what I'm going to do when I'm going to be in the 165 00:09:46,780 --> 00:09:48,820 lab later on, or I'm going to do these parts. 166 00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:51,860 And that's actually really helpful, those specificities. 167 00:09:51,860 --> 00:09:55,740 And then I was thinking, you know, two things that I think we've asked, and sometimes people 168 00:09:55,740 --> 00:10:01,140 are really good at is kind of that short-term perspective and the long-term perspective, 169 00:10:01,140 --> 00:10:05,060 which is really to say, you know, short-term, you know, the grant's only a year or two. 170 00:10:05,060 --> 00:10:07,040 So what are you going to accomplish? 171 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:13,260 But then if you are stuck, you know, opening your own lab and thinking about that long-term 172 00:10:13,260 --> 00:10:16,580 vision, can you put your project into that context as well? 173 00:10:16,580 --> 00:10:20,060 That's a little more of a hard one, but it does give you the sense that people have thought 174 00:10:20,060 --> 00:10:23,260 a little bit beyond their own experiments. 175 00:10:23,260 --> 00:10:24,260 I love that. 176 00:10:24,260 --> 00:10:28,660 And I also appreciate that for candidates, sometimes they're presenting a project that's 177 00:10:28,660 --> 00:10:30,140 not really theirs, right? 178 00:10:30,140 --> 00:10:32,820 They didn't develop the project. 179 00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:36,300 And sometimes we have the sense of like, well, so which piece of this is yours? 180 00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:37,780 And which piece is your mentors? 181 00:10:37,780 --> 00:10:43,140 Can you speak a little bit to how does a candidate present a project when really they're doing 182 00:10:43,140 --> 00:10:45,740 something that the mentor gave them to do? 183 00:10:45,740 --> 00:10:47,540 No, that's so true. 184 00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:51,780 You know, in a sense, you could never expect a candidate to step into a lab and invent 185 00:10:51,780 --> 00:10:52,780 a new project. 186 00:10:52,780 --> 00:10:53,780 That doesn't even really make sense. 187 00:10:53,780 --> 00:10:57,380 You know, they should build on what a lab's expertise is. 188 00:10:57,380 --> 00:10:58,380 And I think that's true. 189 00:10:58,380 --> 00:11:02,580 I think being able to say that, you know, I walked into a lab where their expertise was, 190 00:11:02,580 --> 00:11:07,860 you know, used to be on molecular biology, now it's maybe on CRISPR Cas9 engineering 191 00:11:07,860 --> 00:11:08,860 of things. 192 00:11:08,860 --> 00:11:13,580 But I saw this or I got excited by these results and I wanted to take it farther. 193 00:11:13,580 --> 00:11:14,580 And that's great. 194 00:11:14,580 --> 00:11:18,340 You know, I think have a sense that they, you know, went to some lab meetings, talked 195 00:11:18,340 --> 00:11:21,700 to the mentor and helped devise a project. 196 00:11:21,700 --> 00:11:23,860 Or on the flip side, you can be very honest. 197 00:11:23,860 --> 00:11:27,100 You know, some people walk in and there's a new molecule. 198 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:31,300 You know, a company has brought a new molecule to play or a new chimeric, you know, a new 199 00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:32,900 CAR-T that's in there. 200 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:38,060 They said, look, this is an opportunity, but I see this as a really powerful opportunity. 201 00:11:38,060 --> 00:11:41,300 But again, having that, you know, being able to tell people that, yeah, in an honest and 202 00:11:41,300 --> 00:11:45,500 specific fashion, you don't have to be apologetic if you're doing to invent your own project, 203 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:47,820 but you do have to have a sense of like, oh, this is a good opportunity. 204 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:52,020 I'm going to accomplish this with these tools is super helpful. 205 00:11:52,020 --> 00:11:53,020 Yeah. 206 00:11:53,020 --> 00:11:54,020 I love it. 207 00:11:54,020 --> 00:11:57,180 So what I'm hearing you say is in a sense, it may not be your project. 208 00:11:57,180 --> 00:12:03,020 You may not have birthed it, but take ownership of it because rarely in science are we ever 209 00:12:03,020 --> 00:12:04,380 creating something brand new. 210 00:12:04,380 --> 00:12:05,380 Rarely. 211 00:12:05,380 --> 00:12:08,380 We really are moving things forward that other people have moved forward. 212 00:12:08,380 --> 00:12:10,060 And I like the way you put it. 213 00:12:10,060 --> 00:12:11,060 We're building. 214 00:12:11,060 --> 00:12:12,060 We're always building. 215 00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:14,540 It doesn't make sense unless someone's built something beforehand. 216 00:12:14,540 --> 00:12:16,640 Otherwise, you wouldn't be doing the project. 217 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:21,780 But it's really about owning the project and speaking about it as if you're in charge, 218 00:12:21,780 --> 00:12:26,500 but also knowing which piece you're able to do versus the piece that you're going to need 219 00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:27,780 collaborators for. 220 00:12:27,780 --> 00:12:28,780 Yes. 221 00:12:28,780 --> 00:12:29,780 That's well said. 222 00:12:29,780 --> 00:12:30,780 Take ownership of it. 223 00:12:30,780 --> 00:12:31,780 Know it deeply. 224 00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:36,860 But yeah, don't expect yourself to made the genesis of the project. 225 00:12:36,860 --> 00:12:43,540 So moving away a little bit from the research is we asked this question to people about, 226 00:12:43,540 --> 00:12:46,940 we asked people, where do you see yourself by the years from now? 227 00:12:46,940 --> 00:12:48,500 And a couple of people struggled with that. 228 00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:52,780 Can you just talk a little bit about how does a candidate answer that question, especially 229 00:12:52,780 --> 00:12:53,780 when it's like, I'm in fellowship. 230 00:12:53,780 --> 00:12:56,340 I don't know what tomorrow it's going to bring. 231 00:12:56,340 --> 00:12:59,500 How can I answer that question about five years from now? 232 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:03,380 It's true, and especially when the interviewers, we can't even answer that question usually 233 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:04,380 ourselves. 234 00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:05,380 So that's a problem. 235 00:13:05,380 --> 00:13:08,460 Now, that was a good question. 236 00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:12,180 What I'd like is that someone has thought about it a little bit. 237 00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:13,660 And I guess I'll give two examples. 238 00:13:13,660 --> 00:13:20,860 So one example is, do you have a role model where you can look at, say, I want to be like 239 00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:21,860 this individual? 240 00:13:21,860 --> 00:13:25,700 And even if that individual isn't your best friend or on your mentorship committee, someone 241 00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:30,300 you've seen, somebody you could say, because I think sometimes people can't identify a 242 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:32,860 role model, and you wonder if they're being realistic. 243 00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:40,140 You can't say, oh, I want to work in a university, but then travel and collect samples at this 244 00:13:40,140 --> 00:13:43,420 one place, exotic place, and then come back and do sequencing somewhere else. 245 00:13:43,420 --> 00:13:47,300 Because if you don't even have a role model that's done that, maybe your interviewers 246 00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:50,380 aren't going to think you've thought about that very realistically. 247 00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:54,740 And then I think it's more just maybe coming back again to a little more practical, is 248 00:13:54,740 --> 00:13:57,820 have you given any thought just to the steps that are required? 249 00:13:57,820 --> 00:14:03,980 Which is, and usually the people we're seeing, it's going to be papers and grants, and it's 250 00:14:03,980 --> 00:14:08,900 going to be a little bit of that, how do I fit into an academic institution in terms 251 00:14:08,900 --> 00:14:11,380 of clinical and research balance? 252 00:14:11,380 --> 00:14:13,160 And all of which we understand. 253 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,500 But I like the idea that people have thought about it a little more than just, well, someone's 254 00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:18,580 going to give me a job, and I'm going to work really hard. 255 00:14:18,580 --> 00:14:22,300 Even though you know that's true, and their enthusiasm might be infectious. 256 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:26,780 If you can't identify somebody who you want to be, who's already got a job that you want, 257 00:14:26,780 --> 00:14:30,140 that's probably where I'd like to see people go with that question. 258 00:14:30,140 --> 00:14:33,340 Yeah, thank you for the things you pointed out. 259 00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:37,620 I think also just, I love what you talk about. 260 00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:39,940 At the end, we're not asking you to tell the future. 261 00:14:39,940 --> 00:14:40,940 Right? 262 00:14:40,940 --> 00:14:43,300 I mean, we don't know our futures, right? 263 00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:46,100 But what we're saying is, have you even thought about this? 264 00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:47,420 Have you given any thought? 265 00:14:47,420 --> 00:14:52,860 So doing things as simple as five years from now, I will have graduated fellowship, and 266 00:14:52,860 --> 00:14:55,420 I will be in my first faculty position. 267 00:14:55,420 --> 00:14:59,980 I mean, even just going through the motions of saying what is expected five years from 268 00:14:59,980 --> 00:15:05,180 now, I think allows a candidate really to speak in a way that's intelligent about it. 269 00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:09,660 Like, as a junior faculty, I will be applying for grant funding. 270 00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:13,500 I'll probably be applying for a career development award, those kinds of things. 271 00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:14,500 But you're right. 272 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:18,220 You're kind of, how much thought have you even given it? 273 00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:21,500 Because if you thought about it, then it shouldn't be difficult to talk about it. 274 00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:25,780 And so perhaps candidates in preparing need to at least have those conversations. 275 00:15:25,780 --> 00:15:27,460 I think it's good. 276 00:15:27,460 --> 00:15:33,420 I think it comes also just to realizing, so often we're mentored by people who are much 277 00:15:33,420 --> 00:15:39,100 senior than us, and oftentimes, in a sense, much more either experienced or successful. 278 00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:44,220 And sometimes you'll have projects where it's a 30-person lab with somebody with a ton of 279 00:15:44,220 --> 00:15:46,980 grant funding and 35 years of experience. 280 00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:51,260 And so you can't immediately expect to step into that. 281 00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:55,020 But understanding that, one, we want the best for you. 282 00:15:55,020 --> 00:15:56,500 We want people to be successful. 283 00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:58,540 We want people's projects to work. 284 00:15:58,540 --> 00:16:03,700 And so biting off a creative project, but something that's tangible is so good. 285 00:16:03,700 --> 00:16:07,180 I think that's really nice, because I think we definitely want to support people who are 286 00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:08,800 going to change the world. 287 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,700 But you've got to do it sort of one step at a time, for sure. 288 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:17,980 Now kind of as a corollary to that question is, when you know, so one thing we did see 289 00:16:17,980 --> 00:16:22,260 was one candidate who had been working on in a certain area for a long time, and then 290 00:16:22,260 --> 00:16:25,980 all of a sudden made a transition to a totally different area. 291 00:16:25,980 --> 00:16:29,700 And that can happen because candidates moved to a new institution. 292 00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:31,980 That project is no longer available. 293 00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:34,140 Maybe the funding ran out for that project. 294 00:16:34,140 --> 00:16:39,900 How can candidates talk about that and still talk about it in a way that makes sense? 295 00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:46,100 Yeah, and as you point out, we certainly see people where that's way out of their control, 296 00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:49,580 sometimes way out of their control and unexpected. 297 00:16:49,580 --> 00:16:54,580 And I guess on one hand, you could say, look, the ability to shift and be nimble is actually 298 00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:55,840 a huge trait, right? 299 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,300 That's a huge in the plus column. 300 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:02,920 And the timing of that is not always, as we said, in people's control. 301 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,720 That's the sort of thing where I do feel like acknowledging it and just kind of facing it 302 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,540 head on is so important. 303 00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:14,380 I think, as you kind of recall, we'd see people and then maybe would discuss as a group. 304 00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:18,420 You'd be like, oh, their CV has this big strange gap. 305 00:17:18,420 --> 00:17:21,280 But I think people could take 30 seconds and explain that. 306 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,220 And then the people that do the best are people that say, look, I was working on a project 307 00:17:25,220 --> 00:17:29,020 A, and the mentor had an unexpected departure. 308 00:17:29,020 --> 00:17:30,020 I found a new opportunity. 309 00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:32,460 I got very excited about it. 310 00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:34,380 And again, it was able to shift. 311 00:17:34,380 --> 00:17:39,460 I think trying to cast that in an optimistic, positive fashion is as good as anything. 312 00:17:39,460 --> 00:17:42,140 But facing it head on is probably the most important. 313 00:17:42,140 --> 00:17:45,900 There's no way that, so sure, then nor should you sweep that under the carpet. 314 00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:47,100 That's not a bad thing. 315 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:48,580 That's a mark on somebody's resume. 316 00:17:48,580 --> 00:17:51,940 It's just an unexpected piece of life, for sure. 317 00:17:51,940 --> 00:17:52,940 Absolutely. 318 00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:55,500 And David, we're going to talk about it as interviewers. 319 00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:56,980 We're like, what happened? 320 00:17:56,980 --> 00:17:59,580 And so you might as well just say something about it. 321 00:17:59,580 --> 00:18:02,340 And then we don't have to ask that question. 322 00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:08,460 Now, when we saw great candidates and we saw candidates that didn't present themselves 323 00:18:08,460 --> 00:18:14,580 as well, when you look at the extremes of who presented themselves well versus those 324 00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:20,380 who didn't, what was the secret ingredient of those who did really, really well? 325 00:18:20,380 --> 00:18:24,660 Yeah, I think people had excelled. 326 00:18:24,660 --> 00:18:30,740 I was trying to think about the top things that really framed them. 327 00:18:30,740 --> 00:18:32,780 One certainly is enthusiasm. 328 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:38,060 There's nothing that's more exciting after a short day or a long day than people that 329 00:18:38,060 --> 00:18:41,220 are excited to talk about their work, obviously passionate about it. 330 00:18:41,220 --> 00:18:45,420 So that enthusiasm and passion certainly goes a long ways. 331 00:18:45,420 --> 00:18:54,300 I think there was, again, that idea that not kind of respect and appreciate who your interviewers 332 00:18:54,300 --> 00:18:59,660 are, which means we're not experts, but we're not neophytes. 333 00:18:59,660 --> 00:19:02,700 And being able, again, to put things into context, because there's also nothing worse 334 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:06,060 than listening to somebody and realizing you don't get it. 335 00:19:06,060 --> 00:19:12,380 I think if someone is too technical or if we can't get it, then everybody feels bad, 336 00:19:12,380 --> 00:19:14,660 because then we feel that we're not appreciating it. 337 00:19:14,660 --> 00:19:17,580 And clearly, then that candidate did not get it. 338 00:19:17,580 --> 00:19:25,540 So that ability to frame things succinctly and to have that enthusiasm is super important. 339 00:19:25,540 --> 00:19:29,820 And mostly, I guess I frame this, you're kind of a teacher at that point. 340 00:19:29,820 --> 00:19:30,900 We want to learn. 341 00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:33,020 We're excited to learn about your project. 342 00:19:33,020 --> 00:19:34,020 We want to learn. 343 00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:39,300 So being able to teach that in a brief time, I think, is important. 344 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:44,420 And the one thing that I think is very subtle, but I'll say it anyways, which is sometimes 345 00:19:44,420 --> 00:19:46,060 we'll have a little bit of an idea. 346 00:19:46,060 --> 00:19:49,020 And I know you mentioned something, and I think I mentioned it in a couple of interviews 347 00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:51,420 where, like, oh, have you thought about this? 348 00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:57,740 And it's important to maybe we're totally off base, but also being able to incorporate 349 00:19:57,740 --> 00:20:00,260 sort of that idea on the fly is a really nice trait. 350 00:20:00,260 --> 00:20:03,300 And some people just have an ability to do that really nicely. 351 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:08,020 But I like that sort of enthusiasm, being able to frame things, and really being a teacher 352 00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:11,260 for that time is, I think, super important. 353 00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:13,940 I really appreciate what you said about being a teacher. 354 00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:16,980 In that moment, you are the expert on your project. 355 00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:19,900 And I can get why candidates will be a little bit intimidated. 356 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:22,460 It's like, oh, my gosh, these are the people evaluating me. 357 00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:23,820 But you are the expert. 358 00:20:23,820 --> 00:20:27,920 And so bring your expertise, shine, and teach us something. 359 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,420 And you may not necessarily be teaching us about pathophysiology. 360 00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:32,380 Please do not do that. 361 00:20:32,380 --> 00:20:36,820 But really teach us about why this project matters, why you care about it, where it's 362 00:20:36,820 --> 00:20:37,980 going to go. 363 00:20:37,980 --> 00:20:41,380 And no one can speak to that more strongly or more enthusiastically, really, than the 364 00:20:41,380 --> 00:20:42,380 candidate. 365 00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:43,380 100%. 366 00:20:43,380 --> 00:20:44,380 Yeah. 367 00:20:44,380 --> 00:20:48,180 How about on the flip side of that, those who didn't do as well? 368 00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:51,900 What were some of those things that stood out for you? 369 00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:52,900 Yeah. 370 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:56,300 And I think, honestly, well, I'll say it just because it should be said. 371 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:59,260 But lack of enthusiasm, obviously, is a huge red flag. 372 00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:03,340 If you're not excited about your project, then no one's going to be. 373 00:21:03,340 --> 00:21:04,340 We know that. 374 00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:05,820 And I don't think we had people like that. 375 00:21:05,820 --> 00:21:11,220 But I have had moments where people will come give a talk, and then they don't even seem 376 00:21:11,220 --> 00:21:13,380 like they care about their data. 377 00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:19,740 Or just obviously, people could be nervous, but please give us your most enthusiasm. 378 00:21:19,740 --> 00:21:24,460 And then two things, I think, that stand out, which is like everything in life, a bit of 379 00:21:24,460 --> 00:21:26,140 time managed. 380 00:21:26,140 --> 00:21:28,880 You might have 20 minutes or 30 minutes, you might have 30 minutes or 40 minutes. 381 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,700 But you also have to realize, interviewers want to ask more than one question. 382 00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:37,980 So I think if you spend 10 minutes answering the first question, that's too long. 383 00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:42,900 And that just demonstrates a little bit of a lack of how things are going to work. 384 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:48,780 And some of our best candidates would answer stuff with just enough detail, in 60 seconds 385 00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:50,580 or 90 seconds. 386 00:21:50,580 --> 00:21:54,500 But the moment people go on for three, four minutes and use up a quarter of their interview 387 00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:56,180 time, that's too long. 388 00:21:56,180 --> 00:22:00,780 So I think the poor ones, I think, was that time management. 389 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:10,100 And then there's just a little bit of disorganization, where unfortunately, you might ask a question 390 00:22:10,100 --> 00:22:14,580 and then it can derail things, because people go off into a tangent. 391 00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:18,260 And it's tough, because I think you do want to answer the question appropriately, but 392 00:22:18,260 --> 00:22:22,460 you also don't want to get too derailed in any nitty gritty. 393 00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:26,500 And I'm not having a good ability to give an example with that, other than to say, it 394 00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:32,380 is good to think about what parts of your project are accessible to the interviewers 395 00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:39,100 that are more broadly accessible, that have clinical applicability, and not get too bogged 396 00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:41,980 down in some of the details, which might be very important, and we want to hear about 397 00:22:41,980 --> 00:22:42,980 them. 398 00:22:42,980 --> 00:22:48,220 But I think it can also derail if people get too nitty gritty receptor signaling or about 399 00:22:48,220 --> 00:22:50,240 cloning of genes or stuff like that. 400 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,180 So that's a more subtle one. 401 00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:57,140 But time management, being enthusiastic are two big ones, for sure. 402 00:22:57,140 --> 00:22:58,140 Absolutely. 403 00:22:58,140 --> 00:22:59,140 Absolutely. 404 00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:05,140 David, at the end of each interview, we asked the candidates, what was missing? 405 00:23:05,140 --> 00:23:08,540 If there was a question that we hadn't asked, that they felt like there was something they 406 00:23:08,540 --> 00:23:09,540 needed to tell us about. 407 00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:13,900 I forget exactly how we framed the question, but it was really interesting as far as how 408 00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:15,700 the candidates responded. 409 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:21,060 Tell me about what was some of the best answers and what should candidates be thinking about 410 00:23:21,060 --> 00:23:22,980 when they have that kind of opportunity? 411 00:23:22,980 --> 00:23:25,620 Yeah, Noah, that's a full credit. 412 00:23:25,620 --> 00:23:26,620 That was your question. 413 00:23:26,620 --> 00:23:30,620 That really worked out well, which was to say it definitely opened a lot of things that 414 00:23:30,620 --> 00:23:34,820 we didn't expect to get, which was nice. 415 00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:42,620 I think there was an opportunity to talk about some of the non-scientific challenges that 416 00:23:42,620 --> 00:23:45,580 people might have faced, and that was super important. 417 00:23:45,580 --> 00:23:53,220 I think we had quite a few passionate people who were in the basic science lab, but also 418 00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:56,220 done a lot of clinical work that was very meaningful to them. 419 00:23:56,220 --> 00:23:59,420 I think that gave people an opportunity to talk about that. 420 00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:04,280 A couple of people talked about mentorship of their own, where they were able to be mentors 421 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,260 to either students or other residents. 422 00:24:08,260 --> 00:24:10,540 I think that was very meaningful. 423 00:24:10,540 --> 00:24:15,420 To your point, it's hard to prepare for that, but I think it's nice. 424 00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:20,260 Everyone has a life outside the lab, and everyone I think also is probably enthusiastic and 425 00:24:20,260 --> 00:24:21,260 passionate about that. 426 00:24:21,260 --> 00:24:28,940 So, maybe they'll just give us one piece of information, whether it's as fun as just vacation 427 00:24:28,940 --> 00:24:33,820 spots or cooking, or if it is really like I have a passion and even though I'm a do 428 00:24:33,820 --> 00:24:38,100 tissue culture here, I also love to mentor on the side. 429 00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:40,940 It was really nice to get a little insight into people. 430 00:24:40,940 --> 00:24:45,540 It also is just open-ended enough of a question. 431 00:24:45,540 --> 00:24:48,940 It's also open-ended enough of a question that it gives you the ability to be a little 432 00:24:48,940 --> 00:24:53,060 more creative and not just answer something point blank. 433 00:24:53,060 --> 00:24:54,060 That was a good question. 434 00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:55,060 I liked that. 435 00:24:55,060 --> 00:24:58,060 Well, thank you, David, for giving me credit for that question. 436 00:24:58,060 --> 00:25:01,660 All the other questions were yours. 437 00:25:01,660 --> 00:25:06,980 So I'm glad that I had one question of many. 438 00:25:06,980 --> 00:25:11,700 Just to go back to what you said, at the end of the day, the research project is the research 439 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:12,700 project. 440 00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:17,580 I think organizations like to fund people doing good science, but really it's about 441 00:25:17,580 --> 00:25:18,580 the people. 442 00:25:18,580 --> 00:25:23,660 And so, just thinking to that question, it is a hard question to answer, but it really 443 00:25:23,660 --> 00:25:29,220 is an opportunity to talk about yourself in a way that helps people just get excited about 444 00:25:29,220 --> 00:25:30,220 you. 445 00:25:30,220 --> 00:25:34,980 And really, I think all of our candidates are superstars. 446 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:40,540 We don't always know exactly what ways they're excelling outside of the lab. 447 00:25:40,540 --> 00:25:45,500 But yeah, definitely an opportunity to just talk about the things that make you shine 448 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,280 and not be... 449 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,060 Maybe the word is humble, but maybe not really humility as much as not feel like an impostor 450 00:25:53,060 --> 00:25:54,060 about it. 451 00:25:54,060 --> 00:25:58,780 Really be able to speak about yourself in a way that's in glowing terms. 452 00:25:58,780 --> 00:25:59,780 And that's difficult. 453 00:25:59,780 --> 00:26:00,780 It's difficult for us as MDs. 454 00:26:00,780 --> 00:26:01,780 Difficult, for sure. 455 00:26:01,780 --> 00:26:02,780 Absolutely. 456 00:26:02,780 --> 00:26:03,780 Yeah. 457 00:26:03,780 --> 00:26:04,780 Yeah. 458 00:26:04,780 --> 00:26:07,460 Well, David, it's been a great conversation. 459 00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:08,460 I feel like we... 460 00:26:08,460 --> 00:26:13,300 I've learned a lot, even though we were interviewers together. 461 00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:16,300 And I feel like our audiences definitely learned a lot. 462 00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:18,420 And I want to ask that question. 463 00:26:18,420 --> 00:26:24,960 What do you feel like somebody who's listening, who's maybe preparing for such an interview, 464 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,340 what is one thing perhaps we haven't talked about that you want them to know? 465 00:26:29,340 --> 00:26:30,340 Yeah. 466 00:26:30,340 --> 00:26:34,020 Again, just opened enough to be a very challenging question. 467 00:26:34,020 --> 00:26:35,020 That's right. 468 00:26:35,020 --> 00:26:36,020 Thanks. 469 00:26:36,020 --> 00:26:37,020 That's good. 470 00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:38,020 Yeah. 471 00:26:38,020 --> 00:26:42,340 I think you sort of nailed it, which is the project is important. 472 00:26:42,340 --> 00:26:47,380 And certainly the people who got to the stage of the interview, it was based on the project, 473 00:26:47,380 --> 00:26:48,380 right? 474 00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:49,380 Because we read. 475 00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:56,460 But when you're there, and I think when you're interviewing a person or giving a job talk, 476 00:26:56,460 --> 00:27:00,460 I think that would be a very similar experience, giving a job talk or even just giving an invited 477 00:27:00,460 --> 00:27:02,700 seminar. 478 00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:07,940 Sometimes your job is less to wow us in a bit with how much you know, which is important, 479 00:27:07,940 --> 00:27:11,740 but also just to give us a sense that you are the person that's going to tackle that 480 00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:16,540 problem, that you want to tackle that problem, that you tell us it's an important problem 481 00:27:16,540 --> 00:27:20,500 and you feel it's an important problem and you can tell us why it's an important problem. 482 00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:21,500 I love that. 483 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:28,020 Because as you point, you want to give resources, which is often money, but time and resources 484 00:27:28,020 --> 00:27:31,540 and money to people that just love their work. 485 00:27:31,540 --> 00:27:34,900 And so if you can communicate that and make us feel like you love your work, you've done 486 00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:37,900 your job, you know, and then the chips will fall, you know? 487 00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:41,620 So I think that's a good take home message. 488 00:27:41,620 --> 00:27:42,620 That's really awesome. 489 00:27:42,620 --> 00:27:44,600 What a great place to end. 490 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,340 That's just such, such great advice. 491 00:27:46,340 --> 00:27:47,340 Thank you, David. 492 00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:53,060 So to all of our listeners, you've heard David, he's, he really gave us some great, great, 493 00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:56,180 great pointers as to how to prepare for these kinds of interviews. 494 00:27:56,180 --> 00:28:01,100 If you know someone who is preparing for an interview and they would benefit from this 495 00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:03,540 episode, definitely forward it to them. 496 00:28:03,540 --> 00:28:08,060 Please share if you are a mentor and your mentees are getting ready for this type of 497 00:28:08,060 --> 00:28:14,020 brand application interview, definitely forward it to them so that they also can benefit from 498 00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:15,940 the insights that David shared. 499 00:28:15,940 --> 00:28:18,260 David, thank you for being on the show. 500 00:28:18,260 --> 00:28:19,860 Thank you very much. 501 00:28:19,860 --> 00:28:20,860 All right. 502 00:28:20,860 --> 00:28:35,340 Bye everyone. 503 00:28:35,340 --> 00:28:40,700 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic 504 00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:46,420 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 505 00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:47,500 have a mentor. 506 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:53,620 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 507 00:28:53,620 --> 00:28:55,340 Someone else needs to hear it. 508 00:28:55,340 --> 00:28:59,380 So take a minute right now and share it. 509 00:28:59,380 --> 00:29:04,860 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 510 00:29:04,860 --> 00:29:10,900 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.