Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
program.
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it's such a pleasure to be here with you today.
I'm extremely excited about today's episode because we have a really thoughtful guest,
Julia Xu, who is going to introduce herself shortly, but she's an outstanding clinician
researcher who's really making waves in the field, and I want you to meet her.
So without further ado, I'm going to say, Julia, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really happy to be on the show.
And just by way of introduction, I guess I'll just briefly say that I am currently an assistant
professor at University of Pittsburgh in the Department of Medicine, Division of Hematology
Oncology and Section of Benign Hematology, I see patients with benign hematological conditions,
but mostly focusing on sickle cell disease and other hemoglobin disorders, and I'm adult
internal medicine and global health trained as well.
And then I also do clinical research, have a couple of clinical trials ongoing, and also
have a small lab.
So I think that's why I'm here to talk about both the clinical and the research portion
of careers.
Thank you, Julia.
That's an awesome introduction.
I chuckled when you said you have a small lab, because I feel like it, you know, I think
it's important.
I'm going to ask you to tell us how many years out you are from your fellowship, so how many
years you are into this junior faculty career, and then ask you about, like, at what point
did you decide, hey, I'm a clinician scientist, I'm a clinician researcher.
At what point did you feel like you owned the position?
Because you're a little early in your career, I feel, and have accomplished so much that
I wonder if you can speak to that.
Of course, and thank you, very kind words.
So I am about a year and a half out from fellowship.
So I did my hematology only fellowship at the National Institutes of Health at the NIH.
I did a one year hematology fellowship followed by a couple of years of research, and then
during my transition period stayed on a little bit longer to finish some research transition
to University of Pittsburgh in October of 2021.
And so I'm kind of in my second year of the faculty position and getting settled in, you
know, getting studies off the ground, getting the lab finally set up.
And so you're right, I am pretty early in my research career still.
I would say I, gosh, owning is a hard concept, because sometimes I feel like I still don't
own that identity.
You know, there's always a lot of imposter syndrome and second guessing yourself in this
career track.
But I think I felt like a physician researcher when I was in residency at first, because
I did a global health fellowship where I had a year to conduct independent research internationally
in Thailand.
And I think that that was kind of the first time that I was the PI of a project and I
was, you know, managing an international grant and collaboration and, you know, could really
say like, okay, I have taken charge of this research project and it is on me whether it
was or dies.
And then during my fellowship training, had the opportunity to lead a couple of early
phase clinical trials and that really cemented my, I guess, confidence that I was able to
assume more of a leadership position rather than someone who was carrying out research
on behalf of a mentor.
And so I think those experiences were probably the most formative, even though all of the
research experiences I had up to that point had really built upon each other and kind
of gave me a little bit more confidence step by step.
Thank you for sharing that piece of your story.
You know, it's funny, every time I hear your story, I think, wow, what an accomplished
person.
You've been doing so much for so long.
It's interesting, you know, you talk about you leading a research program as a resident.
Okay.
So I'm going to pause and just say that most of the time that doesn't happen, right?
Many clinicians going through training are participating in programs.
They're not leading and you are not just leading in programs, you're leading a research program
internationally and managing collaborations, which is such a great experience for you to
have.
I think many, many times there isn't really in our training and our clinical training,
especially we have a little bit of research here and there, but opportunities to actually
be in leadership of research don't necessarily happen commonly.
So I do want to pause there and ask, what was the set of circumstances in your life
that allowed you as a resident to lead this research program?
How did that come to be?
Yeah, I know that's a really good point.
And I feel lucky in so many ways to have been put on this trajectory early.
I think at the end of the day, you know, if you want to do research, I think getting into
it early really lets you reap the rewards afterwards.
And every little success begins further success in the academic career track.
So I started off doing lab-based research in college, got a master's degree with a program.
I was at University of Pennsylvania and there's a program called Vagilist Scholars Program,
which allows you to sub-matriculate.
And so it paid for two summers of full-time summer research and time during the year to
work on your research and master's project.
And so that gave me lab experience, you know, got me on my first co-author publication,
but also made me realize that I didn't want to be just a basic scientist.
I think I really missed the clinical side of things.
I really liked translating discoveries.
And even though I was fascinated by the lab work, I just didn't see myself as the PI of
a large lab.
And so I actually kind of used that experience to decide to go into medical school.
And then during medical school, you know, I had some research experiences here and there.
Like after my first year of med school, I went to Peru where I did some HIV research,
but it didn't really pan out.
You know, nothing came of the project and I ended up spending most of the time shadowing
and exploring Peru, of course.
And then, you know, I was really fascinated by the idea of global health and I love Spanish.
It was kind of my, it was one of my majors in college and just a real passion.
And so I sought to do more work in Latin America and I stumbled upon this wonderful opportunity
to work with an amazing team of mentors.
So I was in Steve's Vitality Lab.
He's a transfusion medicine professor and he, you know, was a phenomenal mentor, got
me interested in G6PD deficiency.
I was kind of leaning towards hematology at the time, but, you know, hadn't decided on
benign hematology, malignant hematology, you know, oncology.
But, you know, got me really interested in hemoglobin disorders.
I think it started my interest in sickle cell there as well.
And then I had an opportunity to design this project as a, it was supposed to be a three
month scholarly project, but the more we talked about it, the more we realized if I'm going
to go, and this was in collaboration with a HIV clinic in the Dominican Republic.
So it's like, if I'm going to go to the Dominican Republic and I only have three months to get
a project off the ground, you know, best case scenario, I start it and then it never gets
finished.
And so after thinking about it a little more, I decided to apply for a Doris Duke Charitable
Foundation Award for medical students to have a year of protected time doing research.
So I used the scholarly project period to write my IRB, and then I spent that next year
between third and fourth year of medical school going back and forth between the DR and New
York implementing this project of G6PD deficiency screening and trying to identify risk factors
that you can use in a low cost algorithm and resource poor settings to screen patients
with G6PD deficiency.
And it was a tremendous experience.
You know, I loved, even though it was a mentored project, but I was the one on the ground kind
of implementing the study, right?
So in a way I got my first taste of leadership and, you know, the trials and tribulations
of trying to see a project through identifying and overcoming barriers, getting people excited
and engaged in the science.
I had to figure out how to do all of that in Spanish, which was such a cool experience.
And so that gave me my first taste of like, kind of leading a research project on the
ground.
And then when I came to Duke, you know, one of the reasons that I chose Duke was that
there's this internal medicine global health residency program that's combined basically
four years where you do your residency, but then you also do a master's in global health.
And then you have a year on the ground where you're implementing your own projects and
usually apply for some sort of grant.
Like I applied for a Fogarty International Center fellowship.
And so that gave me the opportunity not only to do research locally, you know, Marilyn
Tellen, I love her.
She's an incredible mentor.
So she was my main mentor at Duke in sickle cell.
And I kind of sought out working with her specifically in sickle cell.
We did a really great database project together that, you know, she gave me a lot of independence
to kind of help lead and direct as well.
And then she supported me when I went abroad to do a project on balacemia.
And I think in this situation, I was looking for something in sickle cell and global health,
and there was just not the right project that fit.
And so I ended up deciding to make the pivot to study something related, you know, hemoglobin
disorders, but in kind of a different area of expertise in order to get the knowledge
and training and experience of leading an independent study.
And so I think that was one of my better decisions in life to, you know, not just stick with
exactly my topic area, but to pursue something that gave me the skills I needed to then move
on to the next step.
And I think that was really helpful.
When I then transitioned to fellowship, it could say, hey, I've led a couple of studies
already.
I know how to assemble a research team, how to oversee coordinators and interpreters,
et cetera, and further extended my skill set by helping to run this clinical trial at the
NIH.
So a lot of baby steps along the way and a lot of lessons learned, I think.
And I think at every step, I look for the opportunity that most gave me independence
and the skill sets that I thought were useful for the future.
That's super awesome.
Thank you for sharing your story.
And I see there, you know, you talk about, actually, you use the word luck at some point
and you also talk about opportunity.
But I do see you as someone who was always prepared to take on opportunities when they
came.
And I think you also talk about luck meets preparation.
I feel like that's just such a great piece of your story where you've always had a great
sense of what you want and you've always gone after it.
And yes, you've had opportunities where you've had mentors who have allowed you to lead projects,
but you really have seen yourself as a leader from the beginning and you've taken, you've
pursued opportunities and you've also been prepared to take them and lead them as they
come up, which I think is so incredible.
I think so many people want to be there, you know, five years into faculty or 10 years
into faculty, but you really started doing that super early.
And I just want to say kudos to you for doing that.
You know, I want to ask, is there, is there, because one of the things that I think you
mentioned earlier is that if you are interested in the teachers start early and you have the
opportunity to do that, I just wonder what was the earliest experience that made you
decide I want to try this thing as a researcher, right?
It just, I wonder what was the earliest experience that led you down this pathway?
Yeah, I think the earliest experience was probably the project on G6PD inefficiency
during medical school, you know, having the chance to really troubleshoot your own study.
Like it's, it is frustrating to no end and also the biggest sense of accomplishment you
can feel, you know, at the end of the year, realizing like, wow, I just overcome, you
know, overcame so many hurdles and enrolled like 250 patients in this, you know, survey
and genotype study.
And I got all this data and a publication out of it.
It's really exciting to be able to do that.
I agree, I do think you have to be in the mindset of taking opportunities as they come
along, being flexible, you know, things in research never go the way you imagine.
So you just adapt and roll with the punches and you just have to persevere because I think
if you, if you're waiting for someone to map out exactly how to do a research project and
you know, help you along every time you face a hurdle, you'll just never get anywhere because
everyone's busy with their own stuff.
And so if you want to lead you, you really have to kind of take the ownership of, you
know, whatever issues come up and just be tenacious and, you know, keep pushing regardless
of how desperate the situation seems.
And it's definitely seemed very desperate at times for me, but you know, in the end,
it always seems to work out.
So I think that was probably, you know, my first lesson in like what it truly means to
engage in research and especially global health research, which comes with its own set of
challenges.
And then I think what convinced me to be like, to truly pursue the academic path and be a
physician researcher or, you know, a physician scientist was my experience leading clinical
trials at the NIH because I think that's when you get a real feel for like, okay, this is
not a fellowship project.
I'm not ticking off a box like this is real research that's going to impact patient care.
And I can see how to, you know, move this forward into additional lines of research.
And I think that's really exciting and starting to generate your own ideas about what you
want to accomplish in the field.
I love it.
And you know, for those of you who are listening, Julia is smiling as she's talking about all
these challenges that she's going through.
And Julia, it makes me think, you know, sometimes it's not even about the end result.
Oh, you accrued to an inoculation, so the study and you were able to get a publication.
I mean, it's great that you have that.
And that's the tangible piece that lets people know that she did something.
But you know, as you're smiling, it makes me think that it's who you have to become
to pull that off.
That is so rewarding because the Julia that started the, you know, that started the project
and the Julia that ended the project were two different Julias.
It was a Julia who had pushed through obstacles, who had stayed tenacious and requested what
she wanted and firmly pushed things forward.
I mean, you were just, it was just the transformation that happened inside you that allowed you to
that is your reward, your personal reward.
Like the paper is great, but there's a personal reward and the reward in the transformation
that happens that allows you at the end of that to say, well, what's next?
What else can I do?
And I see that in your story, there's almost like a sense of a graduated responsibility,
so to speak, like a graduated, okay, I've done this project.
Now I'm moving to the next project.
And now I'm moving into this dynamic of it.
Now I'm leading a clinical trial as a fellow.
Many fellows don't do that, but you've had all these building blocks along the way that
have allowed you to move forward into the next challenge and the next challenge and
the next challenge after that.
And I'm wondering how that lands for you.
No, I completely agree with you.
I mean, I think to jump, I think, you know, for instance, it's really intimidating to
become junior faculty all of a sudden and not have been, you know, led your own studies
previously and now suddenly all of the onus is on you, right?
Like it's, it's one of those challenges and I still face it today, but I think I'm much
more prepared because I had had those previous building blocks before.
And I think I can say that for each step of my training, like I would not have been comfortable
leading an international, you know, collaboration as a resident if I had not already gone through
the many challenges of running an international study as a medical student.
And you know, maybe I wouldn't have been as prepared for working in a different culture
and you know, a different environment that I had to adapt to if I hadn't had the experience
of trying to navigate and negotiate the culture in Peru, even, you know, when I didn't have
a successful research project, but I still had to learn how to conduct myself in a new
culture with new colleagues.
And so I think every experience definitely helps you grow as a person.
And it also just gives you confidence, you know, for yourself, but also when you're talking
to other people, because for instance, I think, you know, mentors are also looking for individuals
who are competent and inspired and, you know, really dedicated.
And if you can show that through your previous work, you get more people interested in you
and they're more willing to invest, they're more willing to trust and give you independence
to kind of let you go on to the next step.
Because if you've never shown initiative, they might not feel comfortable saying like,
okay, why don't you take the initiative on this next project?
So I think it really helps, you know, both ways kind of internally and then also in your
interactions to be able to say like, yeah, I am ready for the next thing now.
I love it.
I love how you kind of highlight the fact that all along you were building a portfolio
and you're like, this is, I can do this because I have done it.
I've done it in this phase, I've done it in this place.
And now I'm ready for the next step.
I'm ready to be a leader of my own research program.
And that leads me to think about how you really did as you were transitioning from fellows
to faculty, you did need to negotiate resources to allow you to succeed in your career.
And I wonder if you don't mind just sharing with us some of the thoughts that went into
negotiating or getting ready to negotiate what was your first faculty job.
Sure.
And I have to say that was definitely one of the most stressful periods of my life today.
I'm sure there will be more stressful ones down the road, but it's no one teaches you
how to negotiate, right?
And it's such a black box depending on, you know, what you're looking for and which institutions
are hiring at which time, you know, what they're looking for.
It's really hard to know what you're even allowed to ask for.
So I relied on a lot of resources.
I actually, you know, didn't, I didn't anticipate starting my job search as early as I did.
I was going to stay on for a little bit longer, but you know, there were institutions that
were interested in positions that were open and I ended up kind of just kickstarting the
job search by talking to different people about my career interests.
You know, not phrasing it as do you have a job for me, but more as I would love to get
your advice as a leader in the sickle cell field to understand, you know, what my career
trajectory might look like and what you think is important for me in the next stages, you
know, my career.
What's an IV looking for?
And I got so much good advice that way and also a few job offers along the way.
And so I think reaching out to different people, you know, experts in the field, people you
admire is really important.
As I talked to people, I got more, I began to shape the image of who I wanted to become
as junior faculty.
And I think that was really helpful in negotiations, being able to present a concrete image of,
you know, this is what I intend to do as junior faculty.
This is the space that I can occupy.
This is what I can bring to the institution.
I think plays really strongly when you're negotiating.
And then all of the other pieces of negotiation, like, you know, it's important to negotiate
salary.
Everyone knows that, but more importantly, if you're trying to, you know, shoot for an
academic career, the two things I think about are protected time and a startup package.
Because if you don't have time and you don't have money to do the research, you're just
never going to get the research off the ground.
And you know, you're going to drown in clinical responsibilities.
And it's happened to so many people.
And so I kind of had to first decide what my one and, you know, number one and number
two priorities were.
And they were number one, protected time, and then the number two, you know, the resources
that I got starting out.
And so, you know, protected time, I think was pretty clear.
Everyone I talked to said, you need at least 75% protected time to really be a strong physician
scientist.
That's the best place to start.
Probably less than, you know, 20% clinical and you would lose your clinical footing.
Like, you still need to see patients.
But, you know, 75 to 80% is perfectly reasonable for a physician scientist with or without
a lab.
And then for startup and resources, I ended up just asking people who are going through
the job process, maybe a year ahead of me, or even in my same year to, and it was very
uncomfortable, but I would literally ask them if they would feel comfortable, you know,
sharing their numbers with me.
Like how much did you negotiate for?
And from a basic science standpoint, like what's reasonable to negotiate for a lab?
The number was way higher than I had ever expected.
And then, you know, what do you negotiate when it comes to running a clinical trial
for starting global studies?
You know, what types of resources do you need?
And with that, started putting together a budget of, you know, everything that I might
potentially need to get my research program off the ground.
And then, you know, ask different people.
I asked you, I asked other people about, you know, what were kind of the key pieces of,
for instance, personnel and support that you need and factor that into the budget as well,
since, you know, salaries are usually the biggest money suck when you're talking about
financing your own research.
And so with all of that came, you know, came to a pretty comprehensive but impressive budget.
And that is what I shared with the institutions that, you know, I negotiated with.
And I think it was helpful for them to have a number to work with.
And then also, it gave them a more concrete idea of, you know, what it was I was actually
trying to accomplish in my first three years.
And so I think that is, that's probably how I went about kind of getting ideas and kind
of researching the process.
And then I also took advantage of our, like, Office of Intramural Affairs.
There was someone who you could actually talk to, to get advice on negotiation.
So anytime I had an offer, or even just a phone conversation, I would, you know, run
it by her and just get a sense like, did this go well?
You know, what should I say here?
Is this asking too much?
Is this asking too little?
It usually, the answer is you're asking too little.
And she really helped me, you know, be bolder, because I think, especially as women in science,
we don't tend to, we tend to ask for what we think is fair, not realizing that part
of the negotiation is you need to ask for, you know, the maximum of what you need, and
maybe a little more because you're never going to get that full ask.
And so part of negotiation is being bold with your asks and knowing kind of the different
components to ask for.
So you know, just using all of these different resources, reading a couple of books about
negotiation helped me expand the idea of like, what are the actual negotiables in these jobs?
I love it.
I see so much in that.
So number one, you came prepared.
You went and accessed resources, people, expertise, negotiation resources.
You actually were so prepared.
But see that as one preparation, which I think is so important to have any kind of successful
negotiation.
And then number two, I also see that you were looking when you didn't need to look.
In a sense, you started early and you weren't desperate.
You weren't like, I'm about to run out of money.
I need a job, which really allows you to kind of take your time to think through the process
and keep going back and forth in all the going back and forth that you needed.
I also love that you made a budget and then you ask people what makes sense.
Is this reasonable?
And it's too little, it's too much.
You didn't rely on yourself to be the source of all knowledge for moving forward.
You really engaged all the resources that you had at your disposal.
And then it sounds like you did it.
You took bold steps and you up for things that I think made you feel uncomfortable.
You said, this is what I need.
And I think it's so powerful because you stand out to me as someone who's done things differently
from many people who've come through clinical medicine where we're used to just getting
what we get and we're used to just, you know, whatever you give me, thank you so much.
But you really did something different.
And you said, no, I want, I want to clarify what's needed.
You asked, what do I need to be successful?
You clarified that.
And then you put together your own, this is what it looks, this is what I would need to
be successful.
And then you shared that with people.
You knew from the beginning that you need the protected time.
You knew you needed resources as far as setting up your own program.
And you knew that because you went looking for information.
And so I just want to pause and say to our listeners, if you are listening, I mean, Juliet's
story is so awesome, but just it's so important to gather the information you need so that
you can succeed in your negotiation so that you can set yourself up for success.
You got to succeed in negotiation because it sets you up to succeed as a faculty person.
And I think that's something that you really, really have done well, Juliet.
And thank you for sharing that.
Of course.
Thank you.
It's been a really great journey and definitely I've had a lot of moments along the way where
I thought, can I really do this?
Am I cut out for this?
And am I really doing this in the right way?
But I think, especially having peer mentors and mentors at different stages of their career
to talk about these things with and get a sense of what are the tricks that I can use
for getting to this next stage of my career has been really helpful.
So I definitely encourage talking to as many people at any level of training as you can
to kind of help you prepare for the academic journey.
Absolutely.
And you've really done that well.
One of the things I want to point out that you did well is it's asking people at different
institutions as well.
And that's just so great to have such a rich perspective that's not just centered on one
institution.
This is the way we do things here.
It's like, no, this is what makes sense across several institutions, which is really awesome.
And that I think is a great segue into the next question, which is like, well, you know,
you make this look so easy, Julia.
It's like, wow, look at how much you've accomplished in such a little time.
You as a resident were leading research projects.
So was there any, I mean, what were the challenges, if any, that you faced along the way?
Yeah.
I know I definitely faced quite a few challenges.
It was everything from not being able to get studies through the local IRBs, like the international
IRBs, having things sit around for months, not knowing the right people or the right,
I guess, phone calls to make to make things happen.
Not having local buy-in and having to really generate that.
And the Dominican Republic, I had to give talks and have frequent meetings with both
the lab and the clinical team to explain why I thought this was an important clinical problem.
And eventually after months, they got interested in the project and things went along swimmingly.
But it was a lot of work trying to get local buy-in.
And then there are all sorts of logistical, administrative barriers that you face.
But I think one of the biggest things that I am still working on, and I think you probably
work on for the rest of your life, is I guess the term is work-life integration.
And along with that, I think integration of your clinical and your research role as well,
I think is just very challenging.
And I think it's an ever-moving target.
And you probably never get it quite right, but you always move towards something that
is tolerable and enjoyable, hopefully.
But it's definitely something that's gotten more and more acute and important as I moved
on to different phases of the academic career.
As junior faculty now, really trying to make sure that I don't burn out because everyone
keeps telling me, this is a marathon.
Training might have felt like a sprint because you're always sprinting from one program to
the next.
I got to get this in so that I get accepted, so that I have a good match, et cetera.
But once you get to being actual faculty, you don't have these little benchmarks to
keep you going.
You don't have something, a side post that tells you, oh, you've succeeded at this step.
You can, here's the next step for you to move on to.
It really is just this slow marathon that you have to keep up with, and you have to
maintain your stamina and your interests, your passions, and your sanity.
And so in order to do that, I think work-life integration is one of the most important things
that I'm working on right now.
And then wearing different hats as a clinician and a researcher, I'm constantly trying to
decide should I work on my clinical inbox, answering patient calls, or should I be answering
emails of my research study team, and I'm constantly flipping back and forth.
And so that's something I haven't found a solution to, and it might just be a little
bit of a flipping back and forth for the rest of your career.
But I think it also keeps things interesting.
I learned early on in my clinical training that when I was doing 100% research or 100%
clinical, I just was not happy.
I didn't feel fully fulfilled.
And it's having the mix of both that really one inspires the other, and it really gives
me that satisfaction of being a great provider, but also having a creative outlet and a way
to make an impact that goes beyond just the patient sitting in front of me today.
Wow.
I love that.
I think that you highlight something that's so important, is that the biggest obstacle
or the biggest challenge is us, our capacity to integrate the things that are important.
All of it is important.
Your research is important.
Your patients are important.
The rest of your life is important.
And how challenging it is to say, well, what is the priority in this moment?
And what do I make sure I'm not neglecting in the moment as well?
And so I think for our listeners, it's that as you get better, as you are able to clarify
for yourself what is most important, it allows you to kind of recreate your environment or
recreate your life, your experience to match those priorities.
So that really, ultimately, along this journey, now that you stopped sprinting, and now that
as a faculty member, you're now kind of looking at the long game.
And to be honest, you've been doing that from the beginning, but now it's really a question
of what do I want?
How do I want to live?
How do I want to lead this experience?
And how do I make it all work?
And it's so challenging because in a sense, it's about self mastery.
And it's about other people.
No longer are other people telling you what your goals should be.
To some extent, they still do that.
But really, you recognizing that they are not the ones with a yardstick of what success
looks like.
It's really you.
Your measurement of success comes from your internal fulfillment and really feeling like
you have things exactly where they need to be.
And so I think it's a really important point in just how we're always kind of working on
growing ourselves to become the kind of person who can lead the kind of careers that we want
in that and the kind of fulfilling lives that we have in the process as well.
Absolutely.
You know, I completely agree.
And I think one of the pitfalls of medical training is that we're kind of conditioned
to externalize our self validation and our self worth.
And it makes it really hard to listen to that inner voice say like, this is what I'm about.
And this is why it's important to me.
These are my values.
We don't spend a lot of time thinking about it because we're just, you know, we were constantly
being told this is what you need to do and this is who you need to be.
And we're not really trained to think about, you know, those things for ourselves.
And then it's a huge shock once you have that freedom to shape your own life and career.
Absolutely.
And it really, really is.
It takes time and you've been practicing and continue to practice.
It just, it's a lifelong.
It's a lifelong journey.
Absolutely.
You know, Julia, it's been such a pleasure talking with you today.
I mean, this conversation was so awesome.
I want to say that I feel like our listeners are so fortunate to have this opportunity
to listen to you, having you share your story.
But I do feel like if there's one person out there saying, wow, Julia, can I do this?
I've been in clinical training for 10 years.
I haven't done what you've done.
I didn't need a program as a medical student or as a resident.
Is this for me?
Can I be a clinician scientist?
Can I also become a clinician researcher?
What would you have to tell them?
Well, I mean, I think probably the most important thing is to just get the experience and, you
know, get out there and pursue some sort of research if you're thinking about it, you
know, whether it's joining a lab or joining a clinical research project.
I think until you start doing it, it's really hard to know, number one, is this something
that you're interested in and passionate about?
And number two, is it something that you, you know, have the patience and the, you know,
perseverance to do?
Because research is frustrating most of the time, right?
Like it is not about big wins all the time.
It's about taking advantage of or appreciating the little wins that you get along the way
on a pretty challenging journey, but, you know, hopefully it's well worth it in the
end.
And so I think getting that experience and, you know, really deciding for yourself, is
this something that I want to pursue would be the first step.
And then after that, then you can ask yourself, you know, do I have the right setup, the right
skills, the right training to do this?
That might come in the form of talking to mentors or, you know, colleagues who are kind
of doing research around your level, seeing what's actually needed to be successful at
the next stages of your career.
And realizing that with research, it's a long road where you're constantly acquiring
new skills, and that's one of the big draws of research for me is that, you know, you're
constantly learning and, you know, kind of evolving as a researcher.
And so, you know, I don't think you should look at it and say like, oh, I'm never going
to get there because I don't have X, Y, and Z skills.
You look for the opportunity to pick up those skills.
And maybe it takes a little bit longer, or maybe you happen to get all the skills in
one project, but you just have to take it one step at a time and, you know, just keep
building and knowing that it's kind of an incremental process to get to where you need
to be.
But I think really the first step is, you know, engaging and asking yourself, like,
is this a path that I really want to pursue?
And if so, go for it.
I love it.
I hear two things from what you said.
Number one is stop waiting for someone to tell you, you can or can't.
This is what you want to do.
Go for it.
Absolutely go for it.
You've got to go for it as soon as you want, as soon as possible, because you want to know
this is what you want to do.
It's not glamorous.
It's not, it's not like, you know, it's not the amazing thing that's always talked up
to be.
It's a lot of little battle every day.
It's a lot of moving things forward incrementally, having conversations around whether it's
work that needs to be done or not.
So you want to know, is this the life you want?
Is this something you're willing to fight for?
Because it's a challenging journey, as you shared.
It's not easy.
And so if people are going to take this journey, they want to know that what they're doing
is worth fighting for and that they're going to have the perseverance and the staying power
to stay in the game because it's hard, it's challenging and there are other things to
do.
And so why stay and do something that you don't like and it's hard?
So I really appreciate you sharing that perspective.
And I just want to say thank you, Julia.
It's just been such a great conversation.
I learned a lot just listening to you and I know our listeners definitely have.
So I just want to want to say thank you for coming on the show and thank you for just
sharing your sage wisdom.
Absolutely.
This was such a pleasure.
It was a great conversation.
I really do hope that some of this advice and information can help your listeners.
I think research is really rewarding.
And if it's something like you said, if it's something that anyone has an inkling of an
interest in, just go for it.
It's waiting around for you to pick up and to run with it.
Thank you, Julia.
So everyone you heard, Julia, if you want to do it, you got to go for it.
Don't wait for anyone to give you permission.
You go figure out if this is what you want to do.
So I want to say that Julia has shared with us so many awesome nuggets.
If there is someone you know who needs to hear this, maybe a colleague or maybe even
a mentee, if you're kind of a little further along, please share this episode with them
and definitely make sure that Julia's wisdom gets shared with beyond more than just your
immediate environment because this is so important for clinicians who are so capable, who are
so able really to do whatever they want to do, whatever they set their hearts to do,
to really figure out, hey, is this how I want to contribute in the world?
And then to go for it and not to let anything stop them.
And so I hope that you will definitely share this episode as widely as possible.
And yeah, thank you for listening.
We look forward again to the next time on the Clinician Researcher Podcast.
Bye bye.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
have a mentor.
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.
Someone else needs to hear it.
So take a minute right now and share it.
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health
care in the most important person in history.