1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,180 program. 7 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,020 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:03,660 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast. 13 00:01:03,660 --> 00:01:08,380 I am your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and I'm excited to be here with you today. 14 00:01:08,380 --> 00:01:13,900 I am even more excited to have a very, very, very special guest on the show today, Dr. 15 00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:20,020 Rashida Hull, whom I have known for a few years, and I want her to introduce herself. 16 00:01:20,020 --> 00:01:24,180 And so I'm going to just first of all say, Rashida, welcome to the show. 17 00:01:24,180 --> 00:01:27,340 Thank you for being here. 18 00:01:27,340 --> 00:01:29,940 Thank you, Teosi, for inviting me. 19 00:01:29,940 --> 00:01:34,940 I'm really excited that you have started this podcast because I think it's going to be really 20 00:01:34,940 --> 00:01:41,660 helpful for people out there who actually are even just considering research in their 21 00:01:41,660 --> 00:01:47,540 careers and there's a real need for something like this. 22 00:01:47,540 --> 00:01:48,540 Thank you, Rashida. 23 00:01:48,540 --> 00:01:50,660 You're so kind. 24 00:01:50,660 --> 00:01:52,700 Well I want the audience to get to know you. 25 00:01:52,700 --> 00:01:54,900 So if you would please introduce yourself. 26 00:01:54,900 --> 00:01:59,740 You are many things, but really from the perspective of you as a clinician researcher. 27 00:01:59,740 --> 00:02:01,420 All right, fantastic. 28 00:02:01,420 --> 00:02:02,420 Yes. 29 00:02:02,420 --> 00:02:07,820 So as the clinician researcher, or as we might have to put in our bio sketches, I consider 30 00:02:07,820 --> 00:02:10,100 myself a physician scientist. 31 00:02:10,100 --> 00:02:17,340 I do health services research with a particular focus in geriatric nephrology. 32 00:02:17,340 --> 00:02:22,740 And if I were to say that in more specific terms, or layman terms, I would say, you know, 33 00:02:22,740 --> 00:02:29,420 I'm working to develop new ways that we can deliver geriatric care to patients who have 34 00:02:29,420 --> 00:02:35,100 kidney disease, particularly older adults who don't have the opportunity to get access 35 00:02:35,100 --> 00:02:36,720 to that care. 36 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:42,420 And so the research activities are all around what is the information we need to develop 37 00:02:42,420 --> 00:02:48,140 interventions and then let pilot them and test the interventions and see how they could 38 00:02:48,140 --> 00:02:54,540 actually be further implemented in clinical practice and hopefully change policy. 39 00:02:54,540 --> 00:02:55,540 Wow. 40 00:02:55,540 --> 00:03:01,580 You know, Rashida, I've heard about your research over the years, the way you put it like that. 41 00:03:01,580 --> 00:03:03,620 I mean, it just seems so powerful. 42 00:03:03,620 --> 00:03:07,260 And the first question I have in my mind, which is not the question that I said I would 43 00:03:07,260 --> 00:03:09,620 ask you, is just how did you get here? 44 00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:15,140 How did you get to this place where you're doing research that really honestly is like 45 00:03:15,140 --> 00:03:16,140 paradigm shifting? 46 00:03:16,140 --> 00:03:18,660 Like you're changing people's lives through your research. 47 00:03:18,660 --> 00:03:21,740 How'd you get here? 48 00:03:21,740 --> 00:03:32,300 You know, it's interesting because I do think that our clinical experiences really can uncover 49 00:03:32,300 --> 00:03:35,980 to things that are great research questions. 50 00:03:35,980 --> 00:03:43,500 And I think personally, it's easier to see now than back then when you're in it. 51 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:49,560 But I do recognize that this day, a lot of the things that seem to make me worry about 52 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,860 patients wonder why they keep coming back into the hospital. 53 00:03:53,860 --> 00:03:58,180 What happens when they leave kind of fell in this category. 54 00:03:58,180 --> 00:04:03,420 There are certain patients who lived in nursing homes and receiving dialysis and we tended 55 00:04:03,420 --> 00:04:08,340 to see come in and out of hospital. 56 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:15,300 And I also, I think more broadly, when I learned about chronic kidney disease as a resident, 57 00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:19,340 it still wasn't clear who was taken care of, who was the main doctor, what's the nephrologist, 58 00:04:19,340 --> 00:04:20,980 what's the internal medicine. 59 00:04:20,980 --> 00:04:25,960 And so putting those two together really seemed to me that there's something about this group 60 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:31,780 of patients who need a lot of care and they're overlooked in a lot of ways. 61 00:04:31,780 --> 00:04:32,780 They need access to care. 62 00:04:32,780 --> 00:04:35,460 They may not even realize it. 63 00:04:35,460 --> 00:04:41,500 And so I think that tying together was like the perfect population for me to really try 64 00:04:41,500 --> 00:04:47,460 to make a difference in because it also intersects with not just health equity and despairing 65 00:04:47,460 --> 00:04:48,740 from care and literacy. 66 00:04:48,740 --> 00:04:54,940 It's all these things that I think in general, the culture points towards having patients 67 00:04:54,940 --> 00:04:56,260 make their own decisions. 68 00:04:56,260 --> 00:05:01,780 But many of our patients, especially older adults receiving dialysis, aren't equipped 69 00:05:01,780 --> 00:05:02,780 to do that. 70 00:05:02,780 --> 00:05:07,180 And so trying to kind of put things in place to provide the care they need, they may actually 71 00:05:07,180 --> 00:05:08,180 don't even know they need. 72 00:05:08,180 --> 00:05:11,100 But so yeah, I think that's the picture I think. 73 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:14,780 And I'll start a residency and fellowship. 74 00:05:14,780 --> 00:05:16,820 Wow. 75 00:05:16,820 --> 00:05:20,900 And it sounds like it's been quite a journey to get to where you are right now. 76 00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:26,540 And I just wonder at what point in your journey did you say, you know what, I'm a physician 77 00:05:26,540 --> 00:05:27,540 scientist. 78 00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:31,860 Where was that defining moment for you? 79 00:05:31,860 --> 00:05:38,660 That is an interesting question because we, it's like there's something you're aiming 80 00:05:38,660 --> 00:05:40,340 for, right? 81 00:05:40,340 --> 00:05:44,820 And so yeah, when do you start to feel like you're owning it? 82 00:05:44,820 --> 00:05:52,300 And I would say like the very first research project as a medical student, absolutely not. 83 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:57,580 Neither was the first project I did in residency or when I first got my K award. 84 00:05:57,580 --> 00:06:02,100 I feel like I was still in the sort of like, I'm trying to do research. 85 00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:10,100 I'm trying and so I do think that probably the most defining moment for me probably was 86 00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:20,700 when I submitted an R01 for the first time, when I can see that it was a lot of my own 87 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:26,740 thought processes and efforts and my own decision making that got it through the finish line, 88 00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:28,140 not even knowing the outcome of it. 89 00:06:28,140 --> 00:06:33,140 But I think that truly was one of the most defining moments. 90 00:06:33,140 --> 00:06:34,500 Thank you for sharing that, Rasheeda. 91 00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:38,060 So it sounds like, you know, all along you've been a physician scientist. 92 00:06:38,060 --> 00:06:39,740 You've been growing into the role. 93 00:06:39,740 --> 00:06:45,140 It is really putting together this big grant where you were able to pull together so many 94 00:06:45,140 --> 00:06:49,140 things in this, the many decisions that made up this big grant. 95 00:06:49,140 --> 00:06:58,420 And you looked at your finished work and you're like, I'm a physician scientist. 96 00:06:58,420 --> 00:07:02,180 And that's interesting because it's not the first grant you submitted, clearly. 97 00:07:02,180 --> 00:07:05,140 It's not the first grant you were awarded, clearly. 98 00:07:05,140 --> 00:07:07,780 So I wonder what was it about this grant? 99 00:07:07,780 --> 00:07:12,300 Why did this grant really, really, why was this grant specific and particularly meaningful 100 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:15,580 to you? 101 00:07:15,580 --> 00:07:21,940 I think it goes to the decision making, right? 102 00:07:21,940 --> 00:07:26,220 So even just from the beginning when you're like, okay, I want to do this. 103 00:07:26,220 --> 00:07:32,260 So you're choosing, I'm choosing to submit a grant, not someone else telling me I have 104 00:07:32,260 --> 00:07:36,500 to or I'm being forced to run out of time. 105 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:38,900 It definitely was the choice. 106 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:40,820 I think that that leads with it, right? 107 00:07:40,820 --> 00:07:43,400 And then what is the topic going to be about? 108 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,940 And I feel like I really own both of those decisions. 109 00:07:46,940 --> 00:07:49,980 No one was making me submit the grant when I did. 110 00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:56,000 And also the focus of the grant and what I say is the end goal. 111 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:02,860 I think those are the two driving points because I think with prior grants, while I definitely 112 00:08:02,860 --> 00:08:11,580 like what I was proposing, it still felt like it was a lot of guidance from mentors and 113 00:08:11,580 --> 00:08:13,700 the goal was just the grant. 114 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:16,900 It felt like you didn't even get a grant. 115 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:23,580 So I definitely think this was a shift to where I can see what I was creating and the 116 00:08:23,580 --> 00:08:27,340 reason why I wanted to do it. 117 00:08:27,340 --> 00:08:28,340 That's so beautiful. 118 00:08:28,340 --> 00:08:30,260 And Rashid, I've known you for a long time. 119 00:08:30,260 --> 00:08:32,340 You've been creating amazing things for a long time. 120 00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:33,340 Thank you. 121 00:08:33,340 --> 00:08:35,140 But I love what you're talking about. 122 00:08:35,140 --> 00:08:38,940 I think what I see you saying is that this is really, you owned it from the beginning, 123 00:08:38,940 --> 00:08:44,180 from creation, from like the inception all the way to the finish line and just having 124 00:08:44,180 --> 00:08:47,740 completed that project where you could look back and say, you know what, this is my work, 125 00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:52,540 my idea, my creation and really taking ownership of it. 126 00:08:52,540 --> 00:08:55,460 It sounds like this was the first grant in which you felt like you just brought all of 127 00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:58,220 yourself to just lead all the way to the end. 128 00:08:58,220 --> 00:08:59,220 Yeah. 129 00:08:59,220 --> 00:09:06,820 And not that I didn't ask for help or get feedback, but I definitely, I feel like it 130 00:09:06,820 --> 00:09:11,500 was more clear that I was the one making the final decision on everything. 131 00:09:11,500 --> 00:09:18,460 In fact, I think that's what made it actually some way fun and kind of freeing because, 132 00:09:18,460 --> 00:09:20,860 you know, like, all right, let's go. 133 00:09:20,860 --> 00:09:23,740 Got to get done. 134 00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:24,740 I love it. 135 00:09:24,740 --> 00:09:25,740 I love it. 136 00:09:25,740 --> 00:09:29,180 Now tell me what has been your greatest advantage on this journey? 137 00:09:29,180 --> 00:09:34,060 Because you've come so far in, I think, a short period of time. 138 00:09:34,060 --> 00:09:38,460 What has kept you, what has allowed you to be so successful? 139 00:09:38,460 --> 00:09:47,260 Oh, so when I thought about this, on one hand, I paused about the word advantage. 140 00:09:47,260 --> 00:09:51,540 So I think I'll answer success first. 141 00:09:51,540 --> 00:10:01,940 And that, I think externally, it would be mentors who actually cared and thought I had 142 00:10:01,940 --> 00:10:12,060 potential, but maybe it's also the early success with grants when I came onto faculty. 143 00:10:12,060 --> 00:10:17,980 And I don't know if that's like, oh, I applied to so many, I finally got them, or just that 144 00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:19,900 these committees were willing to bet on me. 145 00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:27,940 Because I think one of the biggest challenges for us, especially those who are underrepresented 146 00:10:27,940 --> 00:10:35,780 in medicine, is that sometimes you just need someone to bet on to do both emotional support 147 00:10:35,780 --> 00:10:38,100 and the financial support of the grant. 148 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:45,980 And so I definitely think just having the opportunity was enough to give me the advantage, 149 00:10:45,980 --> 00:10:46,980 right? 150 00:10:46,980 --> 00:10:52,260 So I took it and I tried to make the most out of the early funding I received. 151 00:10:52,260 --> 00:10:59,500 And then I think, personally, like what I do is, I think a lot of them think that we 152 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:03,500 are particularly organized. 153 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:08,900 And I think one of the things that works for me is just trying to create a strategy for 154 00:11:08,900 --> 00:11:16,260 how everything gets done, and kind of starting to make use of the calendar and time management 155 00:11:16,260 --> 00:11:22,180 and those types of things, I think have always been something innate for me, even in college, 156 00:11:22,180 --> 00:11:27,620 my nickname was Agenda, because I would sit down, write a schedule on a napkin and decide 157 00:11:27,620 --> 00:11:29,500 what I was studying every hour. 158 00:11:29,500 --> 00:11:37,420 So that type of, I guess, attention to time and using it, I think, has been very useful 159 00:11:37,420 --> 00:11:43,140 for me, considering how much work does go into writing grants and papers and so on. 160 00:11:43,140 --> 00:11:44,140 All right. 161 00:11:44,140 --> 00:11:46,100 So I hear you saying two things. 162 00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:50,420 So the first thing you talked about, at least that resonated with me, was you were putting 163 00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:54,500 in all this work, you're making all these efforts, applying for all these grants. 164 00:11:54,500 --> 00:11:59,020 And finally, when you got one of these awards, it was a validation of all the work you've 165 00:11:59,020 --> 00:12:00,020 been doing so far. 166 00:12:00,020 --> 00:12:02,700 And it really kind of gave you a boost to keep going. 167 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:05,700 Because I think otherwise, it would have just kind of felt futile. 168 00:12:05,700 --> 00:12:10,180 But it's funny, you talk about people giving you an opportunity. 169 00:12:10,180 --> 00:12:11,380 And I think of it as both. 170 00:12:11,380 --> 00:12:15,580 They're giving you an opportunity, but you're taking it too. 171 00:12:15,580 --> 00:12:17,500 And a lot of that too is your preparedness. 172 00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:21,540 So and the second thing I heard you say, you are very organized. 173 00:12:21,540 --> 00:12:27,220 And being able to have structure to put these big applications where there's so many moving 174 00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:32,780 pieces or so many parts, you are the kind of person who essentially are practicing the 175 00:12:32,780 --> 00:12:34,900 preparation meets opportunity. 176 00:12:34,900 --> 00:12:35,900 Yes. 177 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:36,900 Yes. 178 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:37,900 I love that. 179 00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:38,900 Oh, it's good. 180 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:39,900 It's good. 181 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:40,900 And these are learnable skills. 182 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:46,260 And I think I want to highlight them for our audience, because sometimes there's a sense 183 00:12:46,260 --> 00:12:47,820 like, wow, she's so amazing. 184 00:12:47,820 --> 00:12:48,820 She's so wonderful. 185 00:12:48,820 --> 00:12:49,820 And she is. 186 00:12:49,820 --> 00:12:53,460 The thing is that people can learn to be organized. 187 00:12:53,460 --> 00:12:58,060 People can learn to put structures in place that help them to move a lot of things forward. 188 00:12:58,060 --> 00:13:00,820 And I think, Rashida, you're a great example of that. 189 00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:05,460 Just you are very organized and that allows you to take big things and make them small 190 00:13:05,460 --> 00:13:06,460 and move them forward. 191 00:13:06,460 --> 00:13:07,460 Yeah. 192 00:13:07,460 --> 00:13:11,940 And I think that to your point, and things that I've learned skills and people have different 193 00:13:11,940 --> 00:13:12,940 gifts. 194 00:13:12,940 --> 00:13:17,140 And I think for myself, sometimes I may not be... 195 00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:21,180 I would say one of the things I still need to work on as far as like a quote unquote 196 00:13:21,180 --> 00:13:26,140 weakness, might be just really be willing to think outside of box and be extremely creative 197 00:13:26,140 --> 00:13:28,900 in what is possible in science. 198 00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:35,980 And so a listener might feel like they have that down, but they may be a little less organized. 199 00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:41,980 And so those things all can come together and you can build on your weaknesses in a 200 00:13:41,980 --> 00:13:46,820 variety of ways to get where you want to go. 201 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:48,820 Thank you for pointing that out, Rashida. 202 00:13:48,820 --> 00:13:52,660 You talk about weaknesses, which I think in science we're always thinking about how are 203 00:13:52,660 --> 00:13:53,660 we unique? 204 00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:56,020 We're always going back to the place where we're not as strong. 205 00:13:56,020 --> 00:14:00,180 But I do think it just highlights the fact that there are so many opportunities for collaboration. 206 00:14:00,180 --> 00:14:01,780 I am really great in structure. 207 00:14:01,780 --> 00:14:04,500 I bring the structure to this project. 208 00:14:04,500 --> 00:14:08,340 And then there's someone who's like, I think outside the box, I don't care about structure. 209 00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:12,380 And so both people are able to complement each other. 210 00:14:12,380 --> 00:14:16,620 And that can be the power of collaboration. 211 00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:19,380 Now talk to me about your greatest disadvantage. 212 00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:24,500 You know, you've done all these great things, but what have been challenges along the way? 213 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:27,020 What's been the greatest challenge? 214 00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:31,900 So, yeah, this is an interesting one. 215 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:40,340 I think it's almost the reverse of what I mentioned before as far as support, mentor, 216 00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:51,380 excuse me, who is willing to bet on me and says, you know, I believe you can do this. 217 00:14:51,380 --> 00:14:54,020 You got potential, willing to help me. 218 00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:57,820 That has been a great advantage to me. 219 00:14:57,820 --> 00:15:05,700 But prior to that experience was mentoring, that was almost the opposite of that. 220 00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:12,620 And so in that very early period when I was trying to find my way, trying to understand 221 00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:17,540 like the fundamentals of research and possibly also when you're in it, you're learning the 222 00:15:17,540 --> 00:15:18,540 culture. 223 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:23,900 It's like I was getting commentary that my ideas weren't good enough, that I wasn't moving 224 00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:27,740 fast enough, that I would never make it in research. 225 00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:29,220 So that effect. 226 00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:36,180 And I think that when you're receiving information like that, then it's almost there's so much 227 00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:39,820 of an internal fight to not believe that too. 228 00:15:39,820 --> 00:15:45,660 And so there's still probably a little element that still lingers there despite achieving 229 00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:47,420 grants to this point. 230 00:15:47,420 --> 00:15:53,300 But yeah, these are formative years even as a grown up, but you're trying to achieve something 231 00:15:53,300 --> 00:15:54,700 new. 232 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:58,340 And so that has been the biggest hurdle. 233 00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:01,460 Yeah, definitely. 234 00:16:01,460 --> 00:16:03,500 Thank you for highlighting that hurdle, Rashida. 235 00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,900 I think it is the hurdle of many of our listeners. 236 00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:09,060 So I mean, we're great people, right? 237 00:16:09,060 --> 00:16:13,340 We've done so many things and every step of the way people, there's always the, you haven't 238 00:16:13,340 --> 00:16:14,340 done more. 239 00:16:14,340 --> 00:16:15,340 Here's the next thing. 240 00:16:15,340 --> 00:16:16,340 Here's the next thing. 241 00:16:16,340 --> 00:16:19,420 And one of the things I love that you talked about is that you were learning the fundamentals 242 00:16:19,420 --> 00:16:24,140 of research or learning the basics, the culture of research, which is really different from 243 00:16:24,140 --> 00:16:29,620 the culture of clinical care, which is our training or maybe a 10 year period. 244 00:16:29,620 --> 00:16:34,980 And when we think about PhDs who are professional researchers, they're steeped in the culture 245 00:16:34,980 --> 00:16:37,700 and the fundamentals of research from the very beginning. 246 00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:40,800 They're literally all of their training is about the research. 247 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,720 But for us, we finish our training, we graduate, we're clinicians, and then know we're starting 248 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,420 with the research piece. 249 00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:48,420 And that is hard. 250 00:16:48,420 --> 00:16:53,580 It's a very formative part of our experience as researchers. 251 00:16:53,580 --> 00:16:57,720 And so then we're vulnerable to people who come and tell us that we're not good enough. 252 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,900 And it's not that we're not good enough. 253 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:00,020 It's just that we're just starting. 254 00:17:00,020 --> 00:17:01,020 We're babies. 255 00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:04,540 Babies are not expected to be masters. 256 00:17:04,540 --> 00:17:08,540 We look like masters because we finished these great things, but we're just starting. 257 00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:14,500 And so we are vulnerable at the very beginning to people who don't believe in us, don't give 258 00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:19,060 us opportunities, who disparage our ideas. 259 00:17:19,060 --> 00:17:23,240 And I have to say that that's really hard. 260 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,300 And I think that it's a challenge for many, many people, which now then brings me to the 261 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:34,020 last question, which I think it feels like it's a natural outflow of the place in the 262 00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:35,020 conversation that we're at. 263 00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:37,380 What do you say to someone who's there? 264 00:17:37,380 --> 00:17:40,620 Who's like, well, I'm trying to make this work, but all around me, I see people who 265 00:17:40,620 --> 00:17:41,900 say I can't make it. 266 00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:43,700 What do you tell them? 267 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:48,820 How do they come through that phase like you've been able to overcome that? 268 00:17:48,820 --> 00:17:56,700 Yeah, so I could talk to my former self, which is interesting because it would have been 269 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,580 nice to have someone like myself to come along back then. 270 00:18:00,580 --> 00:18:09,380 You know, I think it's like, so what is it about what this person's saying is actually 271 00:18:09,380 --> 00:18:15,420 true? 272 00:18:15,420 --> 00:18:22,820 Because what we run into is internalizing a statement, which surely can often just be 273 00:18:22,820 --> 00:18:23,820 an opinion. 274 00:18:23,820 --> 00:18:31,100 So what is true about that and how we can kind of disentangle fact from fiction and 275 00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:37,780 hold on to facts and decide what we can kind of move forward with respect to that. 276 00:18:37,780 --> 00:18:43,100 So I think that's one of the first things I would say to former self. 277 00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:51,180 And I think the other thing is that sometimes learning new things is hard, right? 278 00:18:51,180 --> 00:19:00,860 And so it is often the natural instinct to kind of delay doing something hard, something 279 00:19:00,860 --> 00:19:01,860 that's difficult. 280 00:19:01,860 --> 00:19:07,820 I remember like the very first manuscript I wrote as a fellow that took forever to get 281 00:19:07,820 --> 00:19:11,540 to a first draft. 282 00:19:11,540 --> 00:19:17,620 And I bet a huge part of that was because I had never done it before and it just seemed 283 00:19:17,620 --> 00:19:23,420 insurmountable, so hard to wrap my head around what I was doing. 284 00:19:23,420 --> 00:19:27,740 And so I think, you know, hard doesn't mean impossible. 285 00:19:27,740 --> 00:19:34,540 And that will be the second piece of advice that we don't have to be afraid to try something 286 00:19:34,540 --> 00:19:35,540 that's hard. 287 00:19:35,540 --> 00:19:39,620 And also just to remind yourself of what we've already done. 288 00:19:39,620 --> 00:19:47,500 If you already have completed medical school and residency, this is a different kind of 289 00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:53,540 hard, but it definitely is a reflection of what you can still accomplish at this stage 290 00:19:53,540 --> 00:19:54,540 too. 291 00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:59,900 Thank you for those words of encouragement, Rachida, which are so awesome. 292 00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:03,980 I mean, it's funny, as you're talking about your first manuscript, I'm remembering my 293 00:20:03,980 --> 00:20:04,980 height. 294 00:20:04,980 --> 00:20:05,980 I struggled. 295 00:20:05,980 --> 00:20:07,740 I think I had to bring someone in to help me finish. 296 00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:08,740 It was so hard. 297 00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:09,740 I had to practice and pray. 298 00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:10,740 It wasn't because I was a loser. 299 00:20:10,740 --> 00:20:18,940 It was just that, you know, I had never really done something like that before. 300 00:20:18,940 --> 00:20:21,820 And it's helpful to know that. 301 00:20:21,820 --> 00:20:22,820 And it's interesting. 302 00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:27,900 So your older self can now say that to your younger self, but at that time you couldn't 303 00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:28,900 do that. 304 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:29,900 You didn't know. 305 00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:36,620 So I just wonder, where did you find the community or the voices that told you that you could? 306 00:20:36,620 --> 00:20:41,300 Where did those messages come from to help you keep going? 307 00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:46,060 Yeah, that's a good one. 308 00:20:46,060 --> 00:20:47,060 What helped me keep going? 309 00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:52,900 I mean, I think back then it really was kind of a church community and Bible study, things 310 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:57,540 to that effect that really were helpful and definitely still are. 311 00:20:57,540 --> 00:21:04,460 I think though in recent years, especially after transitioning to faculty, having children 312 00:21:04,460 --> 00:21:09,700 and now there's so much more to juggle in life. 313 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:14,860 When I first, and that was when I first encountered having an executive coach. 314 00:21:14,860 --> 00:21:22,100 And I think it was that initial exposure really has been extremely helpful for me to recognize 315 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:26,940 something we can reflect back to me, essentially what I'm thinking and kind of see, oh, you 316 00:21:26,940 --> 00:21:27,940 know what? 317 00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:28,940 That doesn't make sense. 318 00:21:28,940 --> 00:21:30,780 Yeah, of course I could still do that. 319 00:21:30,780 --> 00:21:38,340 And so I think that in addition to the faith community and friends has been extremely helpful. 320 00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:39,340 Thank you for saying that, Rashida. 321 00:21:39,340 --> 00:21:41,900 So you bring up two things that are so important. 322 00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:43,060 Number one is community. 323 00:21:43,060 --> 00:21:45,140 We can't do this alone. 324 00:21:45,140 --> 00:21:48,980 And we didn't come through medical school residency fellowship by ourselves. 325 00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:52,280 We really didn't have communities that helped us come through. 326 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:57,420 And as we're starting a new venture in research or research training, we need community to 327 00:21:57,420 --> 00:21:59,100 help us get through too. 328 00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:02,860 And sometimes when we look around and maybe we have mentors who don't necessarily believe 329 00:22:02,860 --> 00:22:07,240 that we can make it, or we have communities at work or in our research spaces that may 330 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,700 not think we can make it, there are communities elsewhere. 331 00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:15,440 And so we can tap into all communities that we are already part of that encourage and 332 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,780 support us to help lead us through. 333 00:22:17,780 --> 00:22:20,600 And then the second piece is coaching. 334 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,460 And I totally, totally subscribe to coaching. 335 00:22:23,460 --> 00:22:28,800 And that those are some of the experiences, my work with my executive coach that really 336 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,500 helps me make those mind shifts and mind transfer and maintenance. 337 00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:38,300 And so I really, really appreciate the perspective of somebody else who's totally outside of 338 00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:43,220 the picture helping me think through comments that I may have received that bother me that 339 00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:44,700 don't let me move forward. 340 00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:46,740 And it's like, yes, is that true? 341 00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:48,600 What about it is true? 342 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,060 What about it triggers you? 343 00:22:50,060 --> 00:22:54,260 And so those are great things to have someone help you think through. 344 00:22:54,260 --> 00:22:57,100 And when something's hard, well, why is it hard? 345 00:22:57,100 --> 00:23:00,780 Is it truly that you don't know how to do it? 346 00:23:00,780 --> 00:23:03,420 Or is there something else going on internally? 347 00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:09,100 And now those types of questions that you can, that anyone can ask themselves, right? 348 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:14,940 But definitely really highlights the value of coaching and how that can really kind of 349 00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:17,780 help someone accelerate their careers. 350 00:23:17,780 --> 00:23:18,780 Absolutely. 351 00:23:18,780 --> 00:23:23,420 And now Rosita, you are a coach. 352 00:23:23,420 --> 00:23:26,060 Not only were you coached, you're also coaching. 353 00:23:26,060 --> 00:23:29,020 Could you speak a little bit about that? 354 00:23:29,020 --> 00:23:34,340 How do you help people as they're coming along this journey as a coach who's also a successful 355 00:23:34,340 --> 00:23:35,340 researcher? 356 00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:37,420 Yeah, thank you for asking. 357 00:23:37,420 --> 00:23:45,020 I think this is really interesting because I think that coaching is such an opportunity 358 00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:51,020 to help other people, to serve other people in a different way than the way we do research. 359 00:23:51,020 --> 00:23:57,340 And the way that I'm choosing to pursue it, as you described, really trying to help people 360 00:23:57,340 --> 00:24:04,020 with mindset shifts, especially when it comes to helping women academics who are trying 361 00:24:04,020 --> 00:24:11,180 to submit grants, to write papers, and in particular doing it without losing themselves, 362 00:24:11,180 --> 00:24:15,460 without having an experience of burnout. 363 00:24:15,460 --> 00:24:22,300 And I think part of why this is so interesting to me is because I've had the experience of 364 00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:27,860 being coached and I see the benefits of it. 365 00:24:27,860 --> 00:24:35,100 It's not limited to getting the work done for your research, but it definitely is something 366 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:43,220 that informs how you live your life outside of work, including family, life, children, 367 00:24:43,220 --> 00:24:44,220 marriage. 368 00:24:44,220 --> 00:24:47,860 It can sprinkle over into other things. 369 00:24:47,860 --> 00:24:53,580 And so I think any thing that can serve you and serve others can be so valuable. 370 00:24:53,580 --> 00:24:59,220 And that's really why I want to be a coach, more of a coaching. 371 00:24:59,220 --> 00:25:00,220 That's awesome. 372 00:25:00,220 --> 00:25:01,340 Thank you for sharing that, Rashida. 373 00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:04,940 I hear you talking about you're really taking care of the whole person. 374 00:25:04,940 --> 00:25:07,340 It's like you're a researcher, but you're a whole person. 375 00:25:07,340 --> 00:25:09,140 You've got all these facets to your life. 376 00:25:09,140 --> 00:25:12,660 How do you bring them all together so that you're whole and you're actually enjoying 377 00:25:12,660 --> 00:25:17,340 the journey rather than just slugging through? 378 00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:26,380 Yes, because it is that word journey that I've really been thinking about a lot lately. 379 00:25:26,380 --> 00:25:28,620 That life's a journey. 380 00:25:28,620 --> 00:25:33,020 Everything that we're aiming for, it's all about that process of getting there and trying 381 00:25:33,020 --> 00:25:39,220 to live in the moment, living in the journey and not waiting to live once you've achieved 382 00:25:39,220 --> 00:25:41,020 some outcome. 383 00:25:41,020 --> 00:25:47,900 And I think that's another one of the main things I like to emphasize with clients because 384 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:55,780 that really helps get someone in place to do the work that they're interested in now 385 00:25:55,780 --> 00:26:01,100 without a lot of concern about what could happen in the future. 386 00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:02,540 That's awesome. 387 00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:06,140 And I'm glad that you are helping others in this journey. 388 00:26:06,140 --> 00:26:10,940 You have been my peer coach for several years now, and I know how much I've benefited from 389 00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:11,940 that. 390 00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:15,700 And I'm so excited for your clients and the benefit that they'll get from coaching with 391 00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:16,700 you. 392 00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:22,540 So if we have someone in our audience who's like, I want to work with Dr. Rashida. 393 00:26:22,540 --> 00:26:24,100 Where can they find you? 394 00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:30,980 So you can find me on Twitter at Rashida underscore hall MD or if you even weren't interested 395 00:26:30,980 --> 00:26:34,660 in emailing me directly, it's Rashida at makeinternalshifts.com. 396 00:26:34,660 --> 00:26:35,660 Awesome. 397 00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:36,660 All right. 398 00:26:36,660 --> 00:26:38,620 You all heard it. 399 00:26:38,620 --> 00:26:45,220 I will also post that in the show notes, everybody, so that if you want to connect with Dr. Hall 400 00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:50,340 really in your experience as a clinician researcher, the physician scientist, and also the coach, 401 00:26:50,340 --> 00:26:53,100 I will give you the information and you can reach out to her. 402 00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:57,300 She's definitely I know she's accepting clients, so please make use of that. 403 00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:00,260 Rashida, it has been such a pleasure talking with you. 404 00:27:00,260 --> 00:27:01,860 Thank you for being on the show. 405 00:27:01,860 --> 00:27:06,060 I know that our audience has learned so much from your story. 406 00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:10,340 And there's so much I know that you haven't shared that so much to you. 407 00:27:10,340 --> 00:27:13,380 I do appreciate the pieces that you shared. 408 00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:15,420 Thank you, Rashida. 409 00:27:15,420 --> 00:27:20,420 Everyone, thank you so much for listening today. 410 00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:25,340 It has been such a pleasure listening to Dr. Rashida Hall, and she's just shared some amazing 411 00:27:25,340 --> 00:27:26,420 insights. 412 00:27:26,420 --> 00:27:32,180 I want to ask you if you have been blessed, if you have loved what she's shared, if you 413 00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:35,940 gotten insights from it, think about someone else who needs to hear this. 414 00:27:35,940 --> 00:27:40,700 Think about someone who is younger at the beginning stages of their process, and they're 415 00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:42,860 like, I don't think I can do this. 416 00:27:42,860 --> 00:27:46,900 Think about someone who needs to hear her words of wisdom and share this episode with 417 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:47,900 them. 418 00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:50,180 Also, sign up for our weekly newsletter. 419 00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:55,140 We'll continue to share insights to help encourage you and support you along the journey. 420 00:27:55,140 --> 00:27:56,860 Thank you all for listening today. 421 00:27:56,860 --> 00:28:00,380 Thank you again to Dr. Rashida Hall for being a guest with us today. 422 00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:10,140 And I look forward to talking with you again next time. 423 00:28:10,140 --> 00:28:15,460 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic 424 00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:21,140 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 425 00:28:21,140 --> 00:28:22,260 have a mentor. 426 00:28:22,260 --> 00:28:28,380 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 427 00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:30,140 Someone else needs to hear it. 428 00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:34,180 So take a minute right now and share it. 429 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:39,660 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 430 00:28:39,660 --> 00:29:00,700 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.