1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,860 Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:11,260 to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 3 00:00:11,260 --> 00:00:17,340 As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients. 4 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:22,380 When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find 5 00:00:22,380 --> 00:00:27,780 that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research 6 00:00:27,780 --> 00:00:29,200 program. 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:40,580 However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs. 9 00:00:40,580 --> 00:00:46,200 For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians 10 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:51,800 the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor. 11 00:00:51,800 --> 00:01:01,480 Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene. 12 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,200 All right everyone, welcome to today's episode. 13 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,200 I'm your host Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a privilege to be here talking to you 14 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:09,200 today. 15 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,320 Thank you for tuning in. 16 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:18,480 I'm talking today about the problem you have with finding a mentor, how to find a mentor. 17 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:23,400 And I want to tell you that you can succeed with or without a mentor. 18 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:28,420 And when I say that, I also recognize that there is not one mentor for you. 19 00:01:28,420 --> 00:01:32,320 And if you've come this far in medicine, you have so many mentors. 20 00:01:32,320 --> 00:01:34,600 You did not come here by yourself. 21 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,080 And this whole sense that you don't have a mentor, I've talked about in an earlier episode, 22 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:40,080 is that you do have mentors. 23 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,720 And the question is, which one do you need? 24 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,920 For what specific reason? 25 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,560 And I want to encourage you that whether or not you have a mentor, I think it's helpful 26 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:55,160 to get coaching to help you kind of navigate your mentoring relationships and to help you 27 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,360 really negotiate your career. 28 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,000 Because ultimately, whether you have the greatest mentor in the world or you have no mentor in 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,120 the world, you still do need to navigate your career. 30 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:11,240 And so I am inviting you to our next master class, negotiate your first, next or current 31 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:17,400 academic job, and that's happening for us August 21st at 6pm. 32 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,720 Sign up on our website, clinicianresearcherpodcast.com. 33 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:25,680 And if for some reason you have missed it, then just look out for the next one. 34 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:31,040 But definitely come and see how we can help you think about negotiating your career and 35 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:36,040 creating wins for yourself, whether or not you have the person you identify as a mentor. 36 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:37,440 All right. 37 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:42,760 So today I am talking about the challenges that people have with finding a mentor. 38 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:49,240 And it's important because of an earlier statistic that I shared about a systematic review. 39 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:50,480 Actually, it wasn't even that recent. 40 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,400 It was probably 20 years ago. 41 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,720 But it looked at mentoring in academic medicine. 42 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:59,360 And it was a startling statistic to say that when they looked at medical students, there 43 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:04,960 were less than 50% of medical students who felt that they actually had mentoring. 44 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:09,880 And when they asked faculty members, in some fields less than 20% of faculty members felt 45 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,000 that they had a mentor. 46 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,840 And as I shared earlier, women perceived that they had more difficulty finding mentors than 47 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,840 their colleagues who were men. 48 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,440 And I totally resonate with this statistic because I've always felt like the person who 49 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,640 lacked a mentor. 50 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:26,640 And it's interesting. 51 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,480 I tell people now, I'm like, you have many mentors. 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:30,240 Which one do you need? 53 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,080 But I was that person who had the sense of like, I don't have a mentor. 54 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:34,080 I don't have a mentor. 55 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,800 And I think if I boil it down now, I would say I didn't have someone I felt was a research 56 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:39,800 mentor. 57 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:40,800 And what was I looking for? 58 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,600 I was looking for the person I wanted to become 20 years from now. 59 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,640 And for most of us, we don't have that. 60 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,480 I think we have the wrong picture about mentoring. 61 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,840 We're looking for someone who's going to take us and make us who they are. 62 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:53,160 Or maybe we have a different picture. 63 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,400 But at least for me, it was that sense of this is who I want to become. 64 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,520 Who's the person who's most like that? 65 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,640 And I think that's a difficult way to look for a mentor. 66 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,160 It's kind of like the perspective of I'm looking for the one. 67 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:05,720 And the question is, what does the one look like? 68 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,840 Like, what is their characteristic? 69 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,440 Are you OK with their height? 70 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:10,800 Are you OK with the way they look? 71 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:12,160 Are you OK with the way they dress? 72 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:13,160 Like, be specific. 73 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,160 Who is the one? 74 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,920 But when we come into mentoring with this sense of we're looking for the one, and it's 75 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,840 not very clear exactly what we're looking for or what we actually need, because we have 76 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:24,840 a lot of the ones in our lives. 77 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:25,840 But we're like, no, no, no. 78 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:27,480 This is the one I'm looking for. 79 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,720 Which the one are you looking for? 80 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,080 Anyway, so for many of us who are clinician researchers, I think when we are talking about 81 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:41,480 the one, we're really talking about a mentor who is going to help us in our research. 82 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:47,200 And that's important to know, but also to recognize that you need more than one research 83 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:48,200 mentor. 84 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,940 And yes, there may be one person who's really leading the charge in terms of your research. 85 00:04:52,940 --> 00:04:57,400 But in life and in research, you need more than one thing, because you actually have 86 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,460 many skills that you need to learn in the course of being mentored. 87 00:05:01,460 --> 00:05:05,920 And so in this episode, I'm talking about three reasons why you can't find a research 88 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:06,920 mentor. 89 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,040 And I will tell you that I actually have five things to help you find a mentor at the end 90 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,040 of it. 91 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,280 And if this episode doesn't get too long, I will get to all of it by the end. 92 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:20,600 But the first thing I want to talk about is just helping you understand how difficult it 93 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:27,320 is from the perspective of a mentor who's getting someone who's like, help me succeed. 94 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,600 And the mentor is like, in what way? 95 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,520 And you're not clear as the mentee who's coming. 96 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:33,840 You're just like, well, I need a mentor. 97 00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:34,840 Will you be my mentor? 98 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:36,800 I mean, it's just such a profound and deep question. 99 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,240 Like, will you be my mentor? 100 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,840 What does that mean? 101 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:42,840 It's very deep. 102 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:48,520 And part of the reason it's a deep question, deeper than maybe people recognize, is that 103 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:54,840 when you are a clinician who has spent all of your clinical career, right, your traineeship 104 00:05:54,840 --> 00:06:00,100 has been in clinical medicine, not in research training, and you've missed a lot of the skills 105 00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:03,360 associated with being a clinician researcher. 106 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,920 And I've talked about this in an earlier episode. 107 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,560 It's not just the research methodology you need mentoring in. 108 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,000 You need mentoring around scientific writing. 109 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,520 You need mentoring around actually having writing structure where you consistently produce 110 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,320 writing daily or regularly, consistently, routinely. 111 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:25,920 You need mentoring in writing manuscripts and shepherding them through the publication 112 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:26,920 process. 113 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:32,440 You need mentoring in writing research proposals and finding the right funding opportunities 114 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:37,640 and submitting these proposals and analyzing feedback and using that feedback to create 115 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,500 the next proposal. 116 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:45,160 You need mentoring in establishing a research team, leading a research team, taking people 117 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,560 off your research team, bringing people on your research team. 118 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,680 You need mentoring in recruiting people to the research team as well, paid staff, and 119 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:59,240 then unpaid people, and so trainees who could come into the program and help your research 120 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:00,240 program. 121 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,360 So you need mentoring on so many levels. 122 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:07,560 So in essence, you can look at it as a new clinician researcher is like a baby. 123 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:13,400 Okay, so babies are really cute until you're like the mother or the parent of one, where 124 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:19,080 it's like, wow, this baby totally depends on me for everything. 125 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:26,160 And when you're a new parent, at least I will say what was my experience, it is so overwhelming 126 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:31,080 because you are one person responsible for this one person who's totally helpless. 127 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,800 They can't do anything and then they poop often and they pee often and you're in charge 128 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,480 of handling all of that and you're exhausted and you've got your own life that you're 129 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,080 trying to lead or live at the same time. 130 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:47,460 Well that's what it is for a clinician who's come through maybe 10 years of clinical training 131 00:07:47,460 --> 00:07:49,480 and they have no research training. 132 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,240 And there's this laundry list of skills that come with building a research career that 133 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,760 they don't have, totally helpless, totally dependent. 134 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:04,480 And they show up and they're like, here, take me, be my mom, be my mentor. 135 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,560 And literally that's what you're saying when you show up with no skills. 136 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,120 You're like, be my mentor, teach me everything. 137 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,900 And I have to say that you can trick someone the first time. 138 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:18,800 You know, it's like, oh, I didn't know this is what it would be like to have a new baby. 139 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:21,960 You can only do it the first time. 140 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,960 The second time you're fully aware, you're like, I know, I know what it's like to take 141 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:26,960 care of a new baby. 142 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,000 And yes, people do it again. 143 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,420 Good for you everyone who's had a child and done it again a second time. 144 00:08:33,420 --> 00:08:37,160 But at least the second time you're aware, you know what's involved and you can prepare 145 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:38,160 better. 146 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:42,720 If you were not like me the first time, you would have prepared a lot and just known what 147 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:43,720 you were getting into. 148 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:47,480 But to be honest, it's very hard to prepare for this experience of being a first time 149 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:48,480 parent. 150 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:53,600 And I would say that's what the experience of mentoring can be like, because it's like, 151 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,440 okay, you need everything. 152 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:57,520 And I have a full life. 153 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,640 I'm still building my own career. 154 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:00,680 You need everything. 155 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:03,320 And so you're coming like a baby. 156 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,600 And the reason it's difficult to find a mentor is because it is like asking for someone to 157 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,480 care for a newborn baby. 158 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:15,200 It's like, please take this newborn baby and throw away your social life for the next six 159 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:21,880 to 12 months while just in totally being immersed in caring for this one baby. 160 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,360 And that's what a new mentee, a new clinician who's coming out of their clinical training 161 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:31,520 saying I want to lead a research program feels like, because it's like, wow, you need so 162 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:32,800 much. 163 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,760 And you're depending on me to do all of it. 164 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,680 Wow, that's a lot of pressure. 165 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:41,880 And many mentors don't want to do that. 166 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,720 You know what they want to do? 167 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,920 They want to take care of the older child. 168 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,160 Like, oh, if I'm going to adopt a clinician, researcher, or baby, how about I take one 169 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,400 who already is potty trained? 170 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:59,080 And that's why mentors who are very good, and all mentors really tend to be selective. 171 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,540 They're like, well, what skills are you bringing already? 172 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:03,680 What will I have to teach you? 173 00:10:03,680 --> 00:10:05,880 And then it depends on the stage of the mentor too. 174 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,760 Like to what extent do they have an ecosystem that can take a newborn baby and have multiple 175 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:11,920 siblings caring for them? 176 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:18,520 For example, if you're a parent of nine children, you at least have the oldest child is at least 177 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,160 12, 13 years old, if not older, depending on how you spaced your children apart. 178 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,560 And so yes, a newborn baby is a different kind of experience than, say, the parent of 179 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:31,560 two young children under three. 180 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:32,720 It's a different experience. 181 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,740 And so for some mentors, they have this whole ecosystem where it's like, oh, we can take 182 00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:41,160 on a newbie because there is the graduate student in the lab. 183 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,680 And then there's a senior graduate student in the lab. 184 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,620 There's a postdoc in the lab. 185 00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:49,480 And so there's a whole ecosystem that can take you on. 186 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:50,480 And so it kind of depends. 187 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,560 The mentors have different resources. 188 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:56,040 But number one reason you can't find a research mentor is because it is like asking for someone 189 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,240 to care for a newborn baby. 190 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:04,380 Number two reason is that newbie mentors who are like, well, sure, I'll take you on, they 191 00:11:04,380 --> 00:11:10,040 may not understand how much is involved in caring for a newborn clinician or researcher. 192 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,280 It's like, wow, you really have no skills. 193 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,160 Huh, can I handle this? 194 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:21,760 And so sometimes people get abandoned on the journey because a mentor enters into a mentoring 195 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:26,000 relationship with you and they're like, whoa, this is how much I need to teach you? 196 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:32,400 And there are a lot of abandoned clinician researcher babies across the landscape of 197 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:39,400 academic medicine where people have just not stepped up to pour in all the training that's 198 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:40,820 needed. 199 00:11:40,820 --> 00:11:45,520 And you have to ask, it's like, well, is it our jobs as clinician, researcher, mentors 200 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:49,040 to pour everything into our trainees? 201 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,920 And sometimes if you're the parent of a child, they don't even appreciate the kind of effort 202 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:55,360 that you're inputting into them. 203 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:00,080 They have no idea how much it costs you to be a mentor. 204 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,600 And the reality is that it does take a lot. 205 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:08,240 And sometimes mentors start the relationship with mentees and they're like, whoa, whoa, 206 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,880 whoa, whoa, this is too much. 207 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,760 Let's dial this down. 208 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,120 And people feel abandoned, mentees feel abandoned. 209 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,840 And so it's a very intensive process. 210 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,560 And that's why it can be hard to find a mentor. 211 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:28,600 The number three thing also is I alluded to this earlier is that experienced mentors are 212 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:31,500 looking for people who are a little bit further along the way. 213 00:12:31,500 --> 00:12:37,280 And so when you approach a seasoned mentor, one of the things you'll appreciate is that 214 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:38,280 they're asking you questions. 215 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,460 So tell me about your writing skills. 216 00:12:40,460 --> 00:12:43,040 How many manuscripts have you been involved in? 217 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:44,680 What is your research experience? 218 00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:48,660 Because they want to know what skills are you coming to the table with? 219 00:12:48,660 --> 00:12:51,240 What am I going to be able to resource you to do? 220 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,600 What are you already coming with already resourced? 221 00:12:54,600 --> 00:13:01,400 And that is why the more experienced and more senior mentors get all these amazing more 222 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:07,500 experienced more senior mentees because they're due diligence in terms of who they're taking 223 00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:10,400 on versus who they're not taking on. 224 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,760 Because mentoring can be very intensive, especially when it comes to clinicians who barely have 225 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,280 any research training. 226 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,480 And when they take you on, they're putting you in their research program and the goal 227 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:26,080 is you're going to work on their projects to move their projects forward because it's 228 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,720 a give and take in this relationship. 229 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,040 And so it's important that the person who's coming into the ecosystem can actually support 230 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,120 the ecosystem because at the end of the day, this is a research program that needs to stay 231 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,640 funded so that it can continue to produce. 232 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,840 And so people coming into the ecosystem need to contribute to that production capability 233 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,920 of the ecosystem so that it continues. 234 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,720 It's like a business that needs to be profitable. 235 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,960 Otherwise the business shuts down and nobody has a job. 236 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,440 Okay, so those are the three reasons why it can be very difficult. 237 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,640 Number one, it is like asking someone to care for a newborn baby. 238 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,360 Number two, newbie mentors who may not know what they're getting into can abandon people 239 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,400 and to be honest seasoned mentors can abandon people too. 240 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:12,120 Mentees are feeling abandoned, seasoned mentors are feeling like, oh no, I cannot do this 241 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:13,120 person. 242 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,760 So there's a lot of abandonment going on because sometimes it becomes clear just how much work 243 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,360 is needed and it feels overwhelming to mentors. 244 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,320 Number three, experienced mentors are really looking for people who are kind of full grown. 245 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,320 They're like, well, you're experienced already. 246 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:31,480 And that does kind of drive the landscape of sometimes who's accepted into mentoring 247 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:32,760 experiences. 248 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,400 And so it can be difficult to find a mentor. 249 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,600 Okay, I'm now going to tell you five things to help you find a research mentor. 250 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,040 Again, I want to remind you that you are not looking for the one. 251 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:44,040 There is no such mentor. 252 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,200 Actually, maybe there are. 253 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,000 They're very rare and if you are looking for them, if they exist, someone's already taken 254 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,000 them. 255 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,160 And this is why most people can't find them. 256 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,560 What I'm encouraging you to do is to consider that you need multiple mentors and I'm going 257 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,220 to give you five things to help you find a research mentor. 258 00:15:03,220 --> 00:15:09,640 Number one is to recognize that you're a newbie, like you're a little baby, you're a research 259 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:10,640 baby. 260 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,800 You're a newbie in the mission and most of your training has been just clinical training, 261 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,680 no research training. 262 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:22,160 You're really like a newbie and you have a lot of needs. 263 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:26,160 And many mentors would be overwhelmed to try to meet all your needs within their research 264 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,760 program and many mentors actually don't have the resources or the time actually because 265 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,400 mentoring activities are not supported or they're not funded. 266 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,760 And this is an ongoing conversation in academic medicine. 267 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:45,960 But if you are a newbie in the research world and it's important for you to recognize that 268 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:53,200 you are and figure out how can you get nutrition that doesn't come all from one space. 269 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:59,160 Okay, we've listed a long list of skills you need and I won't go through them again, but 270 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,960 there's a long list, a laundry list. 271 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,620 Which ones of those skills can you get that's not from one source? 272 00:16:06,620 --> 00:16:10,200 Who can teach you proposal writing 101? 273 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,700 Who can teach you manuscript writing 101? 274 00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:19,040 Who can teach you shepherding manuscripts through the publication process 101? 275 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:23,560 Where can you get resources so that you can offload whoever it is who's going to be a 276 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:28,080 research mentor so they don't have to give you absolutely everything? 277 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,780 And I would say that the number one thing you do to do that is to go to trusted sources 278 00:16:31,780 --> 00:16:33,800 to get your basic nutrition. 279 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:39,060 Now if you're a faculty member at an academic institution, usually there are all these career 280 00:16:39,060 --> 00:16:42,680 development programs to help you succeed as a research leader. 281 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:48,080 And these programs are so awesome because they help you get basic skills so you don't 282 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,040 have to depend on one person to give it all to you. 283 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:55,000 And if it's not at your institution, it's at another institution. 284 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,720 And so where are the programs available that you can go to and get the skills that you 285 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,520 need so you're not depending on just one person to help you make it through? 286 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:04,800 Okay, that's number one. 287 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:11,120 Go to trusted sources to get your basic nutrition so that you can be a full grown baby, toddler 288 00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:15,520 baby by the time you're looking for a mentor who's going to help you grow in your research 289 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:16,520 capabilities. 290 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:21,820 Okay, number two is to find safe spaces to make mistakes. 291 00:17:21,820 --> 00:17:27,240 So if you're a baby, a clinician baby, you're going to make a lot of mistakes because babies 292 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:28,640 they poop and they pee a lot. 293 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,120 That's just what they do. 294 00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:31,560 And actually all people do. 295 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:33,080 Just FYI. 296 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,120 And babies are not good at cleaning up after themselves. 297 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:36,880 They just don't know how to do that just yet. 298 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,480 And so as a clinician researcher, you're going to make a lot of boo-boos. 299 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:42,480 I said it. 300 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,400 You're going to make a lot of boo-boos. 301 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,280 And some mentors can be like, sure, I'll clean that up. 302 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,480 Another time mentors are like, I will never clean up another boo-boo like that again. 303 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,600 But what you've got to do is make sure you have a safe space where you can make mistakes 304 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,200 and it's okay. 305 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,480 What are the communities that you go to as a clinician researcher and you're safe? 306 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:06,520 And I want to say that in the academy, people have different experiences and the experience 307 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,840 of people who are underrepresented in the academy is different from the experience of 308 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,960 people who are not underrepresented in the academy. 309 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,880 And I would argue that there may be more safe spaces for people who are represented well 310 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,240 in the academy versus safe spaces for those who are not. 311 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,880 And I would say wherever your perspective is, whatever angle you come from, make sure 312 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,320 you have safe spaces where you can make mistakes and you're not vilified for your mistakes. 313 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,600 Many mentors are great, great at showing you research methodology, but they're not very 314 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,960 patient and it's okay. 315 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:44,000 That mentor doesn't have to both show you the research methodology and clean up your 316 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,240 boo-boos. 317 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,640 Find safe spaces where you can make mistakes so that you don't have to rely on one mentor 318 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,880 to both be the person showing you the ropes and also cleaning up after you. 319 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:56,880 Okay. 320 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,440 Number three is to acquire the basic habits of a clinician researcher. 321 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:03,560 Acquire the basic habits of a clinician researcher. 322 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:08,480 So I have a future episode talking about the seven highly effective habits of a clinician 323 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:13,400 researcher and some of the habits are being someone who's consistently productive. 324 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,120 So you have a writing structure, you show up consistently, you have a sense of your 325 00:19:18,120 --> 00:19:21,880 research direction, and because of that, you choose your projects wisely. 326 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:27,500 So there's some habits that you need to have as clinician researcher and to be honest, 327 00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:29,720 you don't have to depend on a mentor to show you. 328 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:35,720 It is so awesome when our mentors can show us good habits to establish as clinician researchers. 329 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:41,320 There are some effective strategies that are empirically tested, they're not new. 330 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,260 Where can you go to find these resources? 331 00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:47,540 One resource I'm going to just shout out right now is the National Center for Faculty Development 332 00:19:47,540 --> 00:19:48,540 and Diversity. 333 00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:55,120 They've got a great number of resources for just good habits to sustain as an academic 334 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:56,120 faculty member. 335 00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:01,000 So you can go and acquire the basic habits of a clinician researcher without even yet 336 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,840 having to depend on your mentor to do that. 337 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:04,840 Okay. 338 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,520 So acquire basic habits and don't necessarily depend on a mentor to give that to you. 339 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,000 Okay, that's number three. 340 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,200 Number four is have a plan for where you want to go. 341 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:18,720 Okay, it is very difficult when you show up in front of your mentor and you're like, be 342 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,840 my mentor and they're like, great, what do you want to do? 343 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,000 I don't know. 344 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,720 I'm interested in many things. 345 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,400 And they're like, well, what things are you interested in? 346 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:33,420 Well, breast cancer, colon cancer, hematology, oncology, and GI. 347 00:20:33,420 --> 00:20:34,420 And that's great. 348 00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:36,920 I mean, you've kind of narrowed it down because medicine is much broader than that, but it's 349 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,120 not very specific and it's not clear. 350 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,600 And it's very hard for mentors to do anything with that because it's like, where can I fit 351 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,840 you within a research program that doesn't have anything to do with breast cancer or 352 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,200 colon cancer or GI? 353 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,500 Like, where can I fit you? 354 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:53,000 And so it is important for you to know where you're going. 355 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,120 The reason it's important for you to know where you're going is because if you don't 356 00:20:56,120 --> 00:21:01,200 know where you're going, then you can't ask for directions to get there. 357 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,920 You're going and you're really asking people for a destination. 358 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,640 But here's the thing about clinicians. 359 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,040 They actually have a sense of where they want to go. 360 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:14,000 And many times when mentees come and they say, I don't know where I want to go, what 361 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:19,440 they're actually communicating to me is that I haven't done the work of figuring it out. 362 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,720 Help me figure it out. 363 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:27,040 And I have to pause and just say that is a lot to put on a mentor to give you your sense 364 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:28,320 of direction in life. 365 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,560 It's just not a mentor's job. 366 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,820 Some mentors are able to do that. 367 00:21:32,820 --> 00:21:33,820 Many are not. 368 00:21:33,820 --> 00:21:38,120 Many don't have the bandwidth to sit down with you and help you process your life and 369 00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,840 think about the experiences you had and which ones have been most meaningful and where you 370 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,760 want to contribute. 371 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,280 That's really work that you need to do on your own. 372 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:51,360 And this is why I advocate for coaching because it is important work that needs to be done. 373 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,880 But until you figure out where you're going with your life, what you really want to do, 374 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,000 the academic and scholarly contribution you want to make, the area in which you really 375 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,960 want to contribute as a clinician researcher, people can't help you get there. 376 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,560 They can help you move forward because any mentor will be able to pull out things for 377 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,240 you to work on, any mentor can do that. 378 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,480 But is it what you want to work on? 379 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,620 And as mentors get savvier, they resist more people who don't know where they're going 380 00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:18,680 because it's too costly. 381 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:24,040 You end up putting in all-nighters and putting in all the stuff to help people succeed and 382 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,000 then they show up and say, oh, no, that's not what I want to do. 383 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:32,760 And it's a lot of investment to potentially not get anything out of it as a mentor. 384 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:38,220 And you could argue that mentoring should just be selfless and everybody should sacrifice 385 00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:40,000 and you may be correct. 386 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:44,940 But at the end of the day, every research enterprise is like a profitable business. 387 00:22:44,940 --> 00:22:51,000 If the business doesn't make profits, then the business shuts down and it benefits nobody. 388 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,060 So any research enterprise that does not produce consistently and cannot be funded is a research 389 00:22:56,060 --> 00:22:59,160 program that's not going to last very long. 390 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,840 And that's why it's important for you to have a plan for where you want to go. 391 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,280 Don't ask a mentor to give you that plan. 392 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,280 Sit down and think about your life and develop that plan. 393 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,040 And if necessary, do it with a coach. 394 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,200 Let's talk about it. 395 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,200 Send me a DM. 396 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,480 OK. 397 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,600 Number five is to tell the mentor how they can help you get there. 398 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:21,480 So you've done a lot of work already. 399 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:22,640 Now you're ready. 400 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,080 Now you're ready to talk to a mentor and you're not going into your conversation and you're 401 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,200 like, please mentor me or please be my mentor. 402 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:35,240 You're going into the conversation with a very clear sense of direction. 403 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:44,520 I believe that I want to do GI and I'm specifically interested in patients who have hepatitis C 404 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:51,160 and understanding their response to antivirals for hepatitis C. OK, not in GI. 405 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:52,880 I just made that up. 406 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:54,500 But you're very specific. 407 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:58,600 And it helps the mentor because the mentor can say, oh, the greatest and most important 408 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,560 tools are XYZ. 409 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,180 I don't have that in my lab. 410 00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:05,900 You should talk to this other mentor who has all these latest and greatest tools to help 411 00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:07,760 you move forward in that way. 412 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,120 It helps mentors see where they can step in and help you. 413 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:12,320 And then they can direct you. 414 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,360 They could be like, oh, I might not be the right person for you, but this other person 415 00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:18,960 would be so awesome because look at all the tools they have that could help you really 416 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:19,960 shape that. 417 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,320 Or it could be that you're like, no, that other person doesn't exist. 418 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,200 It is just you. 419 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,000 And what then you can help the mentor to see is what do they have within their program 420 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,920 that supports the work you want to do. 421 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,780 And that is so helpful. 422 00:24:34,780 --> 00:24:40,520 So that if you boil down all my recommendations into one, it's really get specific about where 423 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:41,520 you're going. 424 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,520 You have the tools as much as you can on your own. 425 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,920 And then be very clear about how the mentor can help you get where you're going. 426 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,760 OK, let me summarize the five things to do to help you find a research mentor. 427 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,280 Number one, go to trusted sources for your basic nutrition. 428 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,240 Go to trusted sources, get basic nutrition. 429 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,800 Number two, find safe spaces to make mistakes. 430 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,920 Number three, acquire the basic habits of a clinician researcher. 431 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,560 Number four, have a plan for where you want to go. 432 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,120 And then number five, tell the mentor how they can help you get there. 433 00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,520 And remember I said, you don't need just the one mentor. 434 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,300 Stop looking for the one. 435 00:25:13,300 --> 00:25:17,920 But you want to be very specific about how the particular person before you can help 436 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:18,920 you. 437 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:27,120 OK, so this week I want you to find an area in which you need skill building and find 438 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:33,560 a mentor who can help you bridge that gap and go talk to them about where you're going, 439 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:38,520 how they have a skill that's so admirable to you and tell them how they can help you 440 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:39,520 bridge that gap. 441 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,000 And if you do that, come tell me about the conversation you had. 442 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,080 All right. 443 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,120 Share this episode with someone who needs to hear about how to find a mentor and I'll 444 00:25:48,120 --> 00:26:00,200 see you on the next episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast. 445 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:05,560 Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic 446 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:10,840 clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they 447 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,340 have a mentor. 448 00:26:12,340 --> 00:26:17,840 If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself. 449 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,200 Someone else needs to hear it. 450 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,240 So take a minute right now and share it. 451 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,720 As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation 452 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:35,360 of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do health 453 00:26:35,360 --> 00:27:01,680 care.