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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills

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to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.

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When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find

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that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research

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program.

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Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.

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However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.

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For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians

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the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.

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Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.

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Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.

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I am your host, Toyosi Onwuemene, and it is such a pleasure to be talking with you today.

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Today I am going to be talking to you about practical advice for getting your first career

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development award.

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And I'm actually going to give you five steps, five things you need to do to get your career

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development award.

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And I need to go back to when I started thinking about research.

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So prior to undergraduate, I really didn't think about research, but in undergrad, I

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did think about research.

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And one of the reasons I thought about research was because they told me that if I did research,

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it would increase my chances of getting into medical school.

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And so I said, well, if doing research is going to increase my chances of getting into

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medical school, then that's exactly what I should do.

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I should do research.

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And so I took time to do research, not because I loved research or not because I had any

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particular research question I wanted to answer, but because research was a means to an end.

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It was a transaction for me.

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If I could exchange research for admission to medical school, well, it perfectly made

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sense.

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Before that reason, it was a transaction.

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So it perfectly made sense before that reason, it didn't matter what research project I did.

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All that mattered was that it was mildly interesting and that I could finish the work.

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Well, I made it.

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I went into medical school and then in medical school, I was told that doing research helps

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you get into residency.

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And I was fortunate enough to go to a medical school that actually had research baked into

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its curriculum.

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So at my institution, we took a third year to do a research project and you didn't actually

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have to do research.

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You could get a degree, but it just needed to be a scholarly project.

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But for the most part, most of us did research.

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And you know, it really, again, it was a means to an end.

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You had to do the research project to graduate and it also got you into fellowship.

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So again, I was very, very much thinking about research as a transaction, as a means to an

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end.

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Okay.

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So again, I succeeded in research as a medical student, moved on to residency, the same themes.

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Hey, if you do research, you get into a good fellowship.

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And so I did a little bit of research here and there and wow, I got into a great fellowship

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program.

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Wonderful.

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And so it wasn't until I got to fellowship where it was like, wait a minute, I actually

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really do like this research thing and this is what I want to do.

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And so I did do a project here or there.

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I was able to get published during my fellowship and I also did apply for one or two grants.

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I didn't get them.

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And I also did get a master's in clinical investigation.

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But when it came to applying for faculty jobs, all of a sudden people were asking, well,

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so you want protected time for research, but you have no funding.

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You want protected time for research.

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You don't have much by way of publications.

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And so all of a sudden I got to my first faculty job interviewing for jobs and people were

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telling me I was disqualified from research.

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They're like, you don't have the minimum requirements.

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And in fact, many of the places I interviewed at were like, you know what, research happens,

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but it happens at night and on weekends.

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And if that's what you want to do, that's great.

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But take the clinical job and do the research on your own time.

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And you know, it just didn't sound right to me.

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And I finally got to a program where they were like, you know what, we really support

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research here.

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Many of our clinicians are funded investigators and you can succeed here, but guess what,

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you're not qualified.

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So how about you take this clinical job and we give you 20% protected research time.

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And you know what, whenever you can make it, whenever you can get the funding, you can

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become a researcher.

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And at the time I was naive enough to believe that story and I took the job.

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And I said, I'm so glad to be in an environment where people support research and I'm so glad

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that I'm going to be supported to expand my 20% research time into a funded research program.

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I am super excited about this.

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But what I didn't understand was that you don't do 10 years of clinical training and

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become prepared to lead a research program without major transformation.

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And one of the biggest and most important containers for that transformation is the

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Career Development Award.

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And so the Career Development Award is one of the most important containers that allows

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a clinician to transform from the clinician who's had no research training to a researcher

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who leads a meaningful research program.

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That's why a Career Development Award is really important.

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And if you are going to get a Career Development Award, there are five steps that you need

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and they're really important steps.

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You don't want to skip any of them.

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And the very first step that I want to invite you to take is to clarify your destination.

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Yeah, you got to know where you're going.

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Why do you need to know where you're going?

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Because if you don't know what your final destination is, then the reality is that you

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don't know how to get there.

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It's really important.

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And here's the challenge for us as clinicians who are trying to become researchers, who

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are becoming clinician investigators or clinician researchers.

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We have spent our entire career in becoming a physician on autopilot.

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We have spent our lives on autopilot.

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And it doesn't feel that way because you've been very active and engaged in your career.

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But think about it, medical school for most of us, for some maybe a little bit longer

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than four years, but for most of us was four years.

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But there was a defined endpoint.

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These are the classes you take to get you past the basic science phase, basic pathophysiology,

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normal body, disease body, all the learnings you do to be able to move on to the wards.

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Great.

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When you get to the wards, these are the milestones that you need to achieve to be able to pass

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and become and get your certificate as an MD.

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Right?

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There's a very, very defined set of steps.

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You can kind of paint the picture a little bit differently, maybe take a few elective

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courses.

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But at the end of the day, it kind of is an assembly line and you're passing through.

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And then you get to your residency program and your residency program is kind of the

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same.

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There is an assembly line.

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It's like, hey, these are the competencies you need between now and the third year of

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your residency graduation.

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Go for it.

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You're going through rotations that are pre-assigned for you.

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So to be honest, you're not making very many decisions.

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And then for those of you who do go on to fellowship, you're in the same boat.

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It's like, here's 12 months of your clinical rotations and then the six months left if

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you're doing a three year program, which is split 18-18 as far as your research and

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your clinical.

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But there is a very prescribed set of things that need to happen for you to graduate.

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There is not much you can really do around that.

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Yeah, you can extend it.

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You can do a little bit more, but it's very, very defined.

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But the challenge in growing to lead your research program is that there is not a defined

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endpoint.

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And you look around, there are so many different people doing so many different things.

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And so there's not necessarily a defined endpoint.

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So you have to choose what is your destination?

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What kind of research program are you going to lead?

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What is the problem that matters to you that you want to solve?

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But you don't have the training.

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Your experience has been a cookie cutter experience, so to speak.

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And so for many of us, we look around and we're like, well, there is my mentor, the

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only one in the program who has three R1s.

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Well, he's doing prostate cancer research.

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That's my destination.

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And then you ask your mentor, and he's doing prostate cancer research.

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So of course, he's like, well, the destination, the most sensible destination is prostate

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cancer research.

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You should totally come here.

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And everybody's funding prostate cancer research.

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And so you're like, sure, that's my destination.

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But because you haven't done the work of peeling off the layers and layers and layers of your

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abusive clinical training, you don't really know that that's not the destination you want.

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Let me take a step back and talk about this clinical training that you've had.

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That is an abusive training.

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And it's just the way it is.

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It's just the way it is.

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I'm not saying anything bad about our clinical training, but think about it.

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You go through your clinical training and you suppress the urge to sleep when you're

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on call.

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Many of you suppress the urge to go to the bathroom.

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You're like, I'm doing this case.

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I'm not going to the bathroom until this case is done.

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For many of us, we suppress the urge to eat.

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You're like, I just don't have time right now to go get a meal.

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I've got to finish this work.

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And so we spend our entire careers learning to suppress our feelings, our emotions, our

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urges because it's part of our training.

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And so by the time you get to the place where you're like, I now want to lead a research

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program.

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What is that research program's destination?

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You have not been trained to think for yourself or to be in touch with your feelings and your

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emotions.

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You don't know where you want to go because you have not practiced figuring out where

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you want to go.

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What you have practiced is taking whatever senior person is telling you and going with

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it.

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And you've done really well.

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Congratulations.

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The better your program was, the better you are at being out of touch with your own feelings

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and where you want to go.

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And the reason you really, really, really, really need to clarify your destination is

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because if you are on autopilot pursuing a destination of the most important, most prestigious

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Nobel laureate at your institution, you will get there because you guys are good at getting

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to places.

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But you're going to get there and 10, 15 years from now, the layers of your abusive experience

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in medicine start to peel off.

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And then you start to discover that, wow, this is not where I wanted to go.

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Why am I here?

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And that's why you find people who are highly decorated.

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They've got three R01s, three U54s.

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You know, whatever the project is, name it.

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They've had it.

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They're on the short list at NIH.

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They are so successful, but they are so miserable because that's not where they wanted to be

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all along.

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And I hear people saying things like, well, you know, I did that and I'm done because

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they were pursuing a destination that was not theirs.

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So if you're going to be clear about what you're doing and getting your career development

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award, you really want to know your destination.

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You want to clarify it.

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You got to do the work to clarify it.

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And no, it's not just talking to the mentor who only has one destination, the one that

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he or she is at right now.

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But it's really going around and talking to other people, but also most importantly, doing

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the work of getting back in touch with why you're here, what patient experiences have

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meant the most to you, what problems you really want to solve.

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Because if you're going to write a successful career development award, you're going to

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ask yourself, what is the problem I want to solve over the course of my career?

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And no, you're not going to get to that answer in the first year.

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It'll take you time to get there, but you got to set the destination.

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And for many of you, they're like, I could do prostate cancer.

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I could do breast.

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I could do immunotherapy.

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There are so many options, but you got to set one destination and start pursuing that

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one first.

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But it's got to be a destination you care about.

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The reason it needs to be a destination you care about is because there was so much rejection

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in this space.

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It is very hard.

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And you cannot sustain rejection.

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You cannot do hard work if it is not something you really care about.

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And so maybe another way to put this, clarify your destination piece is to clarify your

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why.

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Find your why.

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Why are you here in the space?

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Why do you want to lead a research program?

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What does that get you?

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You got to clarify your destination.

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And that really is your first step.

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The second step is to study the gap.

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There is a gap between where you are right now at the end of your clinical training and

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where you're going as a leader of a prominent and important research program.

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There is a gap.

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And you got to study that gap.

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The reason you want to study that gap is that the goal of a career development award is

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to close the gap between where you are right now and where you're going.

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But if you don't understand the gap, you cannot explain to anybody how the gap can be closed.

239
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You cannot even figure it out for yourself.

240
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That's why you got to study the gap.

241
00:14:08,980 --> 00:14:11,780
And what do you mean study the gap?

242
00:14:11,780 --> 00:14:14,980
Well let's think about it.

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If you're a clinician and you've come through and you've done maybe similar to what I did,

244
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,740
you did a little bit of research here, a little bit of research there, maybe you were fortunate

245
00:14:23,740 --> 00:14:28,020
to have two full years of your fellowship to do research.

246
00:14:28,020 --> 00:14:29,860
You had two years uninterrupted.

247
00:14:29,860 --> 00:14:31,180
Good for you.

248
00:14:31,180 --> 00:14:37,020
When you tally up all the time that you have had to do research, goodness, you'd be doing

249
00:14:37,020 --> 00:14:39,820
really well if you have four years in there.

250
00:14:39,820 --> 00:14:41,080
You'd be doing really well.

251
00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,300
Most of us can say, okay, maybe it's three.

252
00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:46,060
For many of us, it's really one or two.

253
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One or two years of actually doing the research.

254
00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:53,820
When you really drill down on the kind of research you're doing, you really, really,

255
00:14:53,820 --> 00:14:54,820
really pay attention.

256
00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:56,380
You're like, what kind of research are you doing?

257
00:14:56,380 --> 00:15:00,700
Were you leading research or were you just participating in research?

258
00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:06,140
If we think about people who are lab technicians or research assistants, oh, they're participating

259
00:15:06,140 --> 00:15:09,340
in research, okay, but are they leading research?

260
00:15:09,340 --> 00:15:11,940
Because where you're going is to become a research leader.

261
00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:16,340
So you've been participating for maybe three or four years, but you've not been leading

262
00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:18,460
for three or four years.

263
00:15:18,460 --> 00:15:21,860
Now let's go to our research colleagues, the PhDs.

264
00:15:21,860 --> 00:15:24,580
Okay, you think about a PhD program.

265
00:15:24,580 --> 00:15:30,460
And a PhD program, first of all, starts with a basic program of study in a specific area

266
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of expertise.

267
00:15:31,460 --> 00:15:34,620
So maybe it's cellular biology or maybe it's microbiology.

268
00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:40,140
Maybe it's genetics, but there's a very, very defined period of we're taking classes,

269
00:15:40,140 --> 00:15:43,660
we're taking exams, and you end that period with qualifiers.

270
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Like, are you sufficiently an expert in this field?

271
00:15:46,940 --> 00:15:51,620
And then once you take your qualifiers, you start going around to look at different labs.

272
00:15:51,620 --> 00:15:55,780
And so you're kind of like rotating through different mentors to see, is this the lab

273
00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:56,780
I want to be in?

274
00:15:56,780 --> 00:16:02,700
Or is this the research program I want as the vehicle for my PhD?

275
00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:06,700
And then you finally choose a lab, you choose a research program, and that's the research

276
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:11,060
program as a PhD that you're in for three to four years of the remaining part of your

277
00:16:11,060 --> 00:16:12,060
career.

278
00:16:12,060 --> 00:16:17,260
And so by the time you are at the point where you are getting your PhD, where you're like,

279
00:16:17,260 --> 00:16:23,700
congratulations, doctor, you are a PhD, you've done at least five to six years of research

280
00:16:23,700 --> 00:16:26,180
focused training.

281
00:16:26,180 --> 00:16:29,620
And then when you had summers, you didn't even take those summers off.

282
00:16:29,620 --> 00:16:35,140
You did graduate assistantships so that you were really focused on research for a solid

283
00:16:35,140 --> 00:16:38,140
five to six years of your career.

284
00:16:38,140 --> 00:16:42,380
And then at the end of your PhD, you don't just go get a faculty position, you go do

285
00:16:42,380 --> 00:16:47,020
a postdoc and you're like, well, now I'm going to go focus on this very, very, very, very

286
00:16:47,020 --> 00:16:49,700
narrow area and get these methodologies.

287
00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:53,300
And you do a postdoc for about maybe two, three years.

288
00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:57,620
And some people go and get a second postdoc and then they do the postdoc for about another

289
00:16:57,620 --> 00:16:59,620
two to three years.

290
00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:03,860
And so you do all your postdocs, at least one, but maybe two or three.

291
00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:08,420
And now you're like, I am now ready to apply for a career development award.

292
00:17:08,420 --> 00:17:09,420
Wow.

293
00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:11,140
Do you see the mismatch?

294
00:17:11,140 --> 00:17:14,900
So as an MD, you've done 10 years of clinical training, barely any research and certainly

295
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:16,620
not as a research leader.

296
00:17:16,620 --> 00:17:22,380
What I mean about the research leadership training, okay, let's go back to the PhD example.

297
00:17:22,380 --> 00:17:25,860
So when you start off in somebody's lab, you're like the junior graduate student.

298
00:17:25,860 --> 00:17:27,700
You're just like at the very beginning.

299
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:32,900
The most that your PhD mentor will let you do is just help other people on their project.

300
00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:36,100
You are not leading a project when you first start in the lab.

301
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:40,740
But over the course of your time in the lab, you become the more senior PhD person.

302
00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:45,580
You start to lead your own projects and other graduate students come and they help you.

303
00:17:45,580 --> 00:17:50,020
You are already learning to lead research because leading research is not about doing

304
00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:52,060
a project all by yourself.

305
00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:55,720
Leading research is about leading others to help you do the research while you are directing

306
00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:01,920
what experiments, what questions need to be answered to answer a research question.

307
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,980
And so these PhDs do six years of their PhD degree and then they do the postdocs, the

308
00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:11,380
graduate assistantships before their graduation, all the things that they do.

309
00:18:11,380 --> 00:18:14,180
And then they're still like, I need a career development award.

310
00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:18,460
And you as an MD have barely done any research leadership and you're like, I also need a

311
00:18:18,460 --> 00:18:20,100
career development award.

312
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:24,700
So I need to tell you that you are already 10 to 13 years behind your PhD colleagues

313
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:27,060
in terms of research training.

314
00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:30,580
And so when someone tells you this career development award is going to be for five

315
00:18:30,580 --> 00:18:32,540
years and you're like, what to do?

316
00:18:32,540 --> 00:18:33,540
Five years are projected time.

317
00:18:33,540 --> 00:18:35,260
It's like, no, no, no, no, no.

318
00:18:35,260 --> 00:18:39,940
Five years in which you need to fit in 13 years of experience.

319
00:18:39,940 --> 00:18:43,460
And then you kind of calm down and you're like, whoa, that's not enough.

320
00:18:43,460 --> 00:18:44,820
Exactly.

321
00:18:44,820 --> 00:18:47,860
You need to study the gap and understand the gap.

322
00:18:47,860 --> 00:18:52,100
The reason you study the gap and understand it is because you need to understand the five

323
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:54,120
years is not a big enough container.

324
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,160
Five years at 75%.

325
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,980
So when we break it down, you're barely getting three years of research training out of this

326
00:18:59,980 --> 00:19:01,820
career development award.

327
00:19:01,820 --> 00:19:08,000
You need to have crystal clarity on how little time you actually have to come out on the

328
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,780
other side of that as a leader of a research program.

329
00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:15,020
Because the moment you understand that you don't have much time, you can get very serious

330
00:19:15,020 --> 00:19:19,940
about what that three years, five years at 75% protected time can do for you.

331
00:19:19,940 --> 00:19:24,060
You got to study the gap and understand the gap.

332
00:19:24,060 --> 00:19:28,460
So that when you get to a place where people are like, hey, come take this job and you

333
00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:32,540
have 20% protected time, you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

334
00:19:32,540 --> 00:19:36,300
no, no, no, no, 20% protected time is not going to be enough because here's what they

335
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:37,300
do.

336
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:38,300
They give you this package.

337
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,660
They say you have three years to get yourself funded.

338
00:19:40,660 --> 00:19:46,380
Go three years and you have three clinics and no nursing support.

339
00:19:46,380 --> 00:19:49,920
How are you going to do that?

340
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,860
That's why you got to study the gap because you need to understand exactly what resources

341
00:19:54,860 --> 00:19:55,860
you need.

342
00:19:55,860 --> 00:19:59,820
And at this point, number three, you got to determine your needed resources.

343
00:19:59,820 --> 00:20:05,260
You need resources because if you are going to take 13 years of research study, squish

344
00:20:05,260 --> 00:20:11,780
it into five years at 75% protected time, wow, what are you going to need to get there?

345
00:20:11,780 --> 00:20:13,420
Let's think about the resources you need.

346
00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:15,220
Number one, you need mentoring.

347
00:20:15,220 --> 00:20:16,940
But what does that mean?

348
00:20:16,940 --> 00:20:21,420
Many of us are looking for the guru, Nobel laureate mentor, who's like going to save

349
00:20:21,420 --> 00:20:26,540
us, going to take us from neophyte in research to research leader.

350
00:20:26,540 --> 00:20:31,820
And I want to say yay and thank you for all our mentors who are so awesome, have seven

351
00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:32,820
R01s.

352
00:20:32,820 --> 00:20:36,060
We're going to take us to Nirvana.

353
00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:38,980
But what do you exactly need from this mentor?

354
00:20:38,980 --> 00:20:41,940
And do you have all the mentoring you need in this one person?

355
00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:44,500
Well, what areas do you need mentoring in?

356
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:47,700
Well, I told you, you are a research neophyte.

357
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:50,100
You don't have experience even in leading the research.

358
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:53,260
Okay, so you need experience in the research leadership.

359
00:20:53,260 --> 00:20:55,100
But here's the other piece you don't have.

360
00:20:55,100 --> 00:21:01,040
You don't have training in actually writing about the research, promoting your research.

361
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,760
You don't have training in writing grant proposals.

362
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,940
You don't have training in the process of writing.

363
00:21:06,940 --> 00:21:08,740
But what about the process of writing?

364
00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:10,120
When do you do the writing?

365
00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:11,860
What time of the day do you do the writing?

366
00:21:11,860 --> 00:21:15,000
How do you set up structures to protect your writing time?

367
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,180
You need mentoring in doing that.

368
00:21:17,180 --> 00:21:21,220
And then you need mentoring to actually go through the process of writing something and

369
00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:22,220
then publishing it.

370
00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:25,540
Or you need mentoring around the whole process of publication, which is crazy.

371
00:21:25,540 --> 00:21:29,660
It takes you five months to submit a great paper.

372
00:21:29,660 --> 00:21:32,140
You need mentoring around that.

373
00:21:32,140 --> 00:21:36,060
So here we are, we're choosing one mentor and we feel like we're done and you're like,

374
00:21:36,060 --> 00:21:38,420
well, does this mentor meet all your needs?

375
00:21:38,420 --> 00:21:41,980
And studying the gap helps you understand all the resources you need.

376
00:21:41,980 --> 00:21:43,340
So that's mentoring.

377
00:21:43,340 --> 00:21:44,340
What about the other resources?

378
00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:46,620
Well, you need financial resources.

379
00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:48,300
Because here you are big time ND.

380
00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:52,600
One of the things that I think people struggle with is like, you mean I have to pay for myself?

381
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,500
Whatever you choose as an MD, you will always be paying for yourself.

382
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:58,020
Nobody tells you exactly how much you bring in.

383
00:21:58,020 --> 00:22:03,420
If you have a week of clinic and you have three full days of clinic, whoa, you're bringing

384
00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:06,580
in revenue that more than pays for your salary.

385
00:22:06,580 --> 00:22:10,300
And the moment you say, well, I want to do this research thing where I'm not going to

386
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:14,340
be bringing in the kind of revenue that three days of clinic brings in, they're like, whoa,

387
00:22:14,340 --> 00:22:15,940
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, who's paying for that?

388
00:22:15,940 --> 00:22:19,660
And all of a sudden, who's paying for your salary becomes more front and center.

389
00:22:19,660 --> 00:22:22,000
But you're always paying your salary.

390
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,880
As long as you're a clinician seeing patients, you are always paying your salary, always.

391
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,900
Because if you didn't, you would be out of a job.

392
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:32,860
And so the moment we say we want to do research, people are like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait,

393
00:22:32,860 --> 00:22:34,500
wait, who's going to fund that?

394
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,420
Because all of a sudden it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, the clinical revenue is not coming in.

395
00:22:37,420 --> 00:22:39,100
Where's the money coming from?

396
00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:43,780
You need to know how much is needed to support your salary for you to do this thing that's

397
00:22:43,780 --> 00:22:47,820
called a career development award that doesn't bring in clinical revenue.

398
00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:50,740
And that's why hospital systems are always telling you how they're losing money over

399
00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:51,740
research.

400
00:22:51,740 --> 00:22:52,740
That's one of the reasons.

401
00:22:52,740 --> 00:22:56,140
Because MDs who should be bringing in money in the clinical space are now going to do

402
00:22:56,140 --> 00:22:57,140
research.

403
00:22:57,140 --> 00:23:01,980
And so you need to know what resources you need financially.

404
00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:05,220
And then on the financial piece, the side that's really easy is salary.

405
00:23:05,220 --> 00:23:08,060
You know, someone's like, well, you want to do research, we can no longer pay you the

406
00:23:08,060 --> 00:23:09,720
doctor salary you want.

407
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,260
You need to know what your financial needs are.

408
00:23:13,260 --> 00:23:15,860
And then you also need to know who your people needs are.

409
00:23:15,860 --> 00:23:20,900
So we've talked about the mentoring, but what kind of support do you need to be successful

410
00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:24,680
in this container called a career development award that you're only going to be able to

411
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,660
squeeze five years, less than five years worth into?

412
00:23:28,660 --> 00:23:31,780
You got to understand that.

413
00:23:31,780 --> 00:23:38,180
The reason you determine the resources you need is because you're going to need to negotiate.

414
00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:41,900
Oh my goodness.

415
00:23:41,900 --> 00:23:45,980
When you think about negotiation, many people are like, yeah, I negotiate my salary.

416
00:23:45,980 --> 00:23:46,980
Good for you.

417
00:23:46,980 --> 00:23:50,660
But I have to tell you that if all you're negotiating is your salary, you're not negotiating

418
00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:51,660
very well.

419
00:23:51,660 --> 00:23:57,620
Because I just told you that you need a cadre, not one, not two, you need a cadre of mentors

420
00:23:57,620 --> 00:23:59,700
to help you in this process.

421
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:02,020
I've told you that you need people resources.

422
00:24:02,020 --> 00:24:04,940
So I didn't mention, do you need to buy a statistician?

423
00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:10,600
Do you need a graduate research assistant to help you as a new faculty member?

424
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:11,740
What are the things you need?

425
00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:13,820
You got to negotiate that.

426
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:17,660
And I told you about how much little time you have in these five years to do your research.

427
00:24:17,660 --> 00:24:22,060
And if someone says, yes, I'm giving you 75% protected time and you'll be in clinic for

428
00:24:22,060 --> 00:24:25,380
three half days a week on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

429
00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:28,740
When you understand, you're not going to accept that.

430
00:24:28,740 --> 00:24:30,180
Like, yeah, I have protected time.

431
00:24:30,180 --> 00:24:32,020
I only have clinic three half days a week.

432
00:24:32,020 --> 00:24:36,020
And it's like, wait a minute, it's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

433
00:24:36,020 --> 00:24:40,340
And everybody knows that a half day of clinic is never really a half day of clinic.

434
00:24:40,340 --> 00:24:43,900
And so when you understand that and someone gives you three half days of clinic, you'll

435
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:48,600
say, wait, wait, wait, how about I take a full day and a half?

436
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,060
Because a full day of clinic is not the same as two half days of clinic on different days

437
00:24:52,060 --> 00:24:53,060
of the week.

438
00:24:53,060 --> 00:24:54,060
It is not the same.

439
00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:57,300
There is more time investment in two half days of clinic than there is in one full day

440
00:24:57,300 --> 00:24:58,300
of clinic.

441
00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:02,060
But if you don't understand the gap, you can't negotiate it.

442
00:25:02,060 --> 00:25:04,140
You got to negotiate.

443
00:25:04,140 --> 00:25:06,040
And here's the reason you need to negotiate.

444
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,900
Because when you go to write this career development award, if you don't already have the protected

445
00:25:09,900 --> 00:25:12,900
time, you can't get the grant.

446
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:16,980
Your institution needs to demonstrate that they are sufficiently invested in you as a

447
00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:21,780
researcher before you can convince anybody else to give you money to do a career development

448
00:25:21,780 --> 00:25:22,780
award.

449
00:25:22,780 --> 00:25:25,220
And so you better have that.

450
00:25:25,220 --> 00:25:28,740
You better be thinking about negotiating it when you go to your faculty job.

451
00:25:28,740 --> 00:25:29,740
So don't be excited.

452
00:25:29,740 --> 00:25:32,340
You're like, oh my gosh, they give me $400,000.

453
00:25:32,340 --> 00:25:35,500
I'm going to be so, so rich.

454
00:25:35,500 --> 00:25:36,660
It's like, really?

455
00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:38,820
And there's no MA in your clinic?

456
00:25:38,820 --> 00:25:41,820
And there's no scheduler to help you schedule patients?

457
00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:43,340
How are you going to do that?

458
00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:46,800
Can't succeed in research at the same time.

459
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,500
Understand the resources and then you got to negotiate for them.

460
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:52,500
You got to negotiate.

461
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:58,220
When you finally negotiate the resources you need, you are now ready to write the grant.

462
00:25:58,220 --> 00:26:00,360
You are.

463
00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,180
Because here's why you need to understand your destination.

464
00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:07,100
When you're writing the grant, you're telling people here, this is where I'm going.

465
00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:10,020
And then you're going to tell people, hey, this is the gap.

466
00:26:10,020 --> 00:26:12,720
This is the gap that these five years are going to fill.

467
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,660
These are the people.

468
00:26:14,660 --> 00:26:15,660
The next step is the resources.

469
00:26:15,660 --> 00:26:17,420
These are the people who are going to help me get there.

470
00:26:17,420 --> 00:26:18,420
They are five mentors.

471
00:26:18,420 --> 00:26:20,980
This is exactly what they do for me.

472
00:26:20,980 --> 00:26:26,380
And you know, I want to pause and just talk about this mentoring piece.

473
00:26:26,380 --> 00:26:30,860
You know, sometimes you look around and you're like, well, of course I chose prostate cancer,

474
00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:36,060
even though I was on my way to breast cancer, because the mentor who's available has funding.

475
00:26:36,060 --> 00:26:38,340
The prostate cancer mentor is funded.

476
00:26:38,340 --> 00:26:39,900
The breast cancer mentor is not.

477
00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:40,900
That's okay.

478
00:26:40,900 --> 00:26:45,140
Defining your destination allows you to say, what is it this person is giving me that I

479
00:26:45,140 --> 00:26:46,940
can take for myself?

480
00:26:46,940 --> 00:26:51,900
So you're not just going with the flow, doing all the projects that the mentor throws at

481
00:26:51,900 --> 00:26:52,900
you.

482
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:53,900
Like do this one, do this.

483
00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:54,900
You're like, no, no, no, no, no.

484
00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:57,460
These are the tools I need to lead my research program.

485
00:26:57,460 --> 00:27:01,780
So this is the mentoring I need to lead my research program, taking these tools from

486
00:27:01,780 --> 00:27:03,540
you.

487
00:27:03,540 --> 00:27:07,500
Defining your destination and understanding what you need allows you to do that.

488
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:10,860
Allows you not to get stuck and labeled as a prostate cancer person when you really want

489
00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:12,180
to be a breast cancer person.

490
00:27:12,180 --> 00:27:14,900
It's really important.

491
00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:16,500
And now you're able to write the grant.

492
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:20,060
Now you're able to explain the story of how you ended up in a prostate cancer lab when

493
00:27:20,060 --> 00:27:22,220
you were really wanting to do breast cancer research.

494
00:27:22,220 --> 00:27:26,540
You're able to, you're like, this is the mentor who had XYZ resources.

495
00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:30,400
And I went after that and look at how I'm going to now take these resources and build

496
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,500
my breast cancer research program.

497
00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:39,340
You get to do that because you've already done the earlier work.

498
00:27:39,340 --> 00:27:42,500
So now you can write the grant because you know your destination.

499
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:45,560
You understand the gap.

500
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,540
You know the resources you need and you can negotiate.

501
00:27:48,540 --> 00:27:53,060
You've negotiated the resources you need and now you're negotiating how this career

502
00:27:53,060 --> 00:27:59,020
development grant further protects your time to do that.

503
00:27:59,020 --> 00:28:03,940
Those are the five things that are really, really, really, really important in getting

504
00:28:03,940 --> 00:28:05,780
your first career development award.

505
00:28:05,780 --> 00:28:09,380
Because if you cannot be convincing, you don't get the award.

506
00:28:09,380 --> 00:28:11,620
But you're not just selling a story.

507
00:28:11,620 --> 00:28:13,300
You're not just trying to get money.

508
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:16,860
You have a plan for yourself.

509
00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:21,540
And so really writing a career development award is about a mindset shift.

510
00:28:21,540 --> 00:28:27,060
It's about stopping this autopilot life you've been on, which has been great to get you to

511
00:28:27,060 --> 00:28:33,020
the end of your training program, but doesn't lead you to succeed as a faculty member.

512
00:28:33,020 --> 00:28:38,420
And I have to tell you that this is the kind of mindset work that you need to do alongside

513
00:28:38,420 --> 00:28:39,820
a coach.

514
00:28:39,820 --> 00:28:44,300
I favor coaching.

515
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:48,980
Coaching is really important because what you really need is to peel off all the layers

516
00:28:48,980 --> 00:28:51,340
of abusive training.

517
00:28:51,340 --> 00:28:56,380
You literally need to sit down and do that work of peeling back all the layers of the

518
00:28:56,380 --> 00:29:01,580
autopilot, the things you had to do just to get by so that you could figure out what you

519
00:29:01,580 --> 00:29:06,540
really want to do, so you can figure out what the resources are that you really need.

520
00:29:06,540 --> 00:29:10,620
Because if you follow the crowd, if you just do what everybody else is doing, you negotiated

521
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:15,980
a great salary, but oh my gosh, are you even able to do any research with the way you've

522
00:29:15,980 --> 00:29:16,980
negotiated everything?

523
00:29:16,980 --> 00:29:23,660
Do you even have any resources to allow you to lead research, not just to do it in a corner?

524
00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:30,220
And so writing and getting your first grade award is really about shifting your mindset

525
00:29:30,220 --> 00:29:35,260
from how you started in your clinical training to really thinking about what do I need to

526
00:29:35,260 --> 00:29:38,380
become the leader of a research program?

527
00:29:38,380 --> 00:29:41,260
One of the ways you do this is by coaching.

528
00:29:41,260 --> 00:29:49,060
And I just want to stop and say, I really recommend you get a coach to help you in this

529
00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:50,060
transition.

530
00:29:50,060 --> 00:29:51,980
It's a really important transition.

531
00:29:51,980 --> 00:30:00,220
And if you don't know somebody who can help you, we should talk and we should work together.

532
00:30:00,220 --> 00:30:04,300
You should sign up at our website so that we can have a consulting call and we can figure

533
00:30:04,300 --> 00:30:09,100
out what kind of resources you need to support you on this journey and whether I can help

534
00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:11,580
you get there.

535
00:30:11,580 --> 00:30:15,020
Maybe you don't need a coach, but you know somebody else who does.

536
00:30:15,020 --> 00:30:18,420
Maybe you're a mentor and you're like, oh my gosh, yes, I can't mentor this person in

537
00:30:18,420 --> 00:30:20,780
all of these areas.

538
00:30:20,780 --> 00:30:26,940
It's important because your mentee needs to be able to know what they need so they can

539
00:30:26,940 --> 00:30:27,940
go get it.

540
00:30:27,940 --> 00:30:29,940
They're really good at going and getting stuff.

541
00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:33,460
And so if you don't need the coaching, maybe a mentee does, maybe a friend does, maybe

542
00:30:33,460 --> 00:30:41,220
a colleague does, let's connect so that people can get the help they need in becoming the

543
00:30:41,220 --> 00:30:46,540
clinician researchers or the physician scientists that they really want to be.

544
00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:49,180
Because you know how awesome it would be?

545
00:30:49,180 --> 00:30:55,020
You know how awesome it would be to look back on your career and feel fulfilled, feeling

546
00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:59,420
like you actually enjoyed the journey because you weren't living somebody else's life.

547
00:30:59,420 --> 00:31:01,740
You weren't living somebody else's dream.

548
00:31:01,740 --> 00:31:05,600
And that even though you got so many rejections along the path, you could see the progress

549
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,340
you were making because you understood your why and you could see that you were always

550
00:31:10,340 --> 00:31:16,900
failing forward, always prototyping towards your success as a clinician researcher.

551
00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:18,580
How awesome would it be?

552
00:31:18,580 --> 00:31:22,140
To look back on a career and say, I really enjoyed this.

553
00:31:22,140 --> 00:31:24,940
This was so awesome.

554
00:31:24,940 --> 00:31:30,580
And that career is really within reach as long as you have the right mindset about what

555
00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:34,700
a career development award can do for you and you are actually prepared to make the

556
00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:37,540
case so that you can get the award.

557
00:31:37,540 --> 00:31:43,700
And you're actually prepared to make the case so that you can get the award.

558
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:46,220
I look forward to that.

559
00:31:46,220 --> 00:31:51,340
Now if you are looking for more resources, definitely sign up for our weekly newsletter

560
00:31:51,340 --> 00:31:55,500
at our website, docsleadresearch.com.

561
00:31:55,500 --> 00:32:00,580
It's packed with so many important tips to help you make the mindset shift to become

562
00:32:00,580 --> 00:32:05,140
the researcher that you really want to be, that you are destined to be, that you really,

563
00:32:05,140 --> 00:32:06,140
really want to be.

564
00:32:06,140 --> 00:32:11,180
But you only get there if you make it happen.

565
00:32:11,180 --> 00:32:16,700
And you get the right resources that you need to make it happen.

566
00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:18,620
So thank you for listening to me today.

567
00:32:18,620 --> 00:32:21,180
It's been such a pleasure to talk with you.

568
00:32:21,180 --> 00:32:22,420
Reach out to me.

569
00:32:22,420 --> 00:32:30,580
Have a great day.

570
00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:35,940
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic

571
00:32:35,940 --> 00:32:41,540
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they

572
00:32:41,540 --> 00:32:42,700
have a mentor.

573
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:48,820
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.

574
00:32:48,820 --> 00:32:50,580
Someone else needs to hear it.

575
00:32:50,580 --> 00:32:54,620
So take a minute right now and share it.

576
00:32:54,620 --> 00:33:00,080
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation

577
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:06,060
of clinician researchers who make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.