Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
program.
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
Welcome to today's episode.
I'm your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
I'm excited to talk to you today about how to negotiate protected time.
We talked last week about actually why it was important to protect your time, and today
we're going to talk about how to negotiate that protected time.
And I can talk to you about it because I've negotiated protected time for myself.
I shared with you that when I started, I was a full-time clinician.
I was seeing patients five days a week, and I was working hard to make the transition
from clinician to clinician scientist, and it was very hard because I started off without
protected time.
And then I was able over time to negotiate more and more protected time until now I have
70% of my time protected for my research and scholarly activity.
And I'm on my way to getting more of that time protected.
And so what it takes is negotiation.
And that's why I want to invite you to sign up for our Negotiation Masterclass coming
up August 21st.
Yes, I'm going to be talking about how to negotiate your first, next, or current academic
job.
And it's really important because for academic positions, we do need to negotiate that big
first job, but we also need to negotiate in our current jobs.
We need to negotiate more time for the things that we want to do.
And if we don't have the skills to do it, guess what?
We can get the skills to do it.
So join us on August 21st at 6 p.m. so that you can learn to negotiate your first job.
And if you want more information on the Masterclass, it will be on our website, clinicianresearcherpodcast.com.
Okay.
Today, I'm going to be talking about why we negotiate our protected time and how to negotiate
our protected time.
Now remember that I shared with you the story of when I first was looking for academic jobs
and asking for protected time.
People asked me, well, how many manuscripts do you have?
And I was like, well, I don't have very many.
And they were like, well, what funding do you have?
And I didn't have any funding.
And they said, well, we can't make the case for you.
Right.
So sometimes it's the sense of like, well, they didn't believe in me.
But part of it, and actually probably the bigger picture from the perspective of the
institutional negotiators, is that when they went back to make the case for this faculty
member as a faculty member who's going the research route, who's going to be publishing
manuscripts and writing for funding or submitting proposals for funding, what they couldn't
do was make the case that I had already done it before and that they could guarantee that
I would do it again.
And so the challenge I had was that I had no proof.
And because of that, they couldn't go back and make a case for me.
And so what unfortunately happened or could happen to many people is that, well, setting
up yourself to not succeed in research happens when you don't have the time created to do
the research.
And so if you don't actually have protected time to do research, it is very difficult
to get protected time to do the research.
Because you go to apply for funding and people say, well, how much of your time is currently
protected for research?
You can't make a case because it's not true.
And so how do you negotiate that protected time?
So when you go to apply for the funding, you actually can confidently say, my time is protected
for the research.
I'm going to share with you some strategies for how to do that.
I will tell you first of all, that the only protected time you will have is a protected
time you negotiate for yourself.
Yeah, you can have mentors who negotiate for you.
And if you do, good for you.
Most faculty don't have that.
But at some point in time, or right now, if you don't have the one person who's negotiating
for you, you're going to need to negotiate for yourself.
And I would argue that no matter how great a negotiation team you have around you in
terms of the mentors that you have, you're going to want to know how to negotiate to
advance your own career.
And one of the best ways to do that is to start by negotiating your own protected time.
Remember, no one can negotiate your protected time like you can.
And the only protected time you have is the one you negotiate for yourself.
So what are seven things I can tell you about how to negotiate your protected time?
The very first thing is a thing I say a lot and will always be true.
Get clarity on what protected time will do for you.
What do you want this protected time for?
What will it get you?
And many times, that is the biggest hurdle for faculty.
They can't articulate what protected time will do for them, at least not with any specificity.
What I often get when I talk to people about what do you want from your protected time,
they say, well, I just want protected time to do research.
Yes, but what will it do for you?
What exactly will it specifically do for you?
Well, I'll just have time.
Time to do what?
What exactly does it entail?
Well, I'll be able to be in the lab more.
What will you be doing?
And so you want to be very clear about what protected time will do for you.
What does specificity look like?
I want to be an independently funded investigator.
To do that, I need the training to be able to do this research methodology.
I anticipate that I will need to be in a wet bench lab for at least three days a week doing
the experiments.
I'm also going to need time to write and submit research proposals.
And I need to increase my publication record.
For this reason, protected time will allow me to do the work that's needed in the lab
while also allowing me the time and the space to do the work to produce the manuscripts
and the proposals for submission for funding.
Do you see how specific that is?
How much more specificity there is to that rather than just like wanting to do research?
Because research is kind of a big thing.
There's a whole umbrella of things that fits under the definition of doing research.
And it's not just being in the lab doing some experiments or crunching through data.
It's also thinking about how do I communicate what I'm doing to funders so that they can
fund my program?
How do I communicate my results to the scientific community so that my work is known and so
that I have a body of work that speaks for me?
How do I communicate my writing through presentations?
How do I continue to advance the research program that I have?
You want to be very clear at the end of the day what you're going to get from your protected
time.
Because what clarity does is it helps you have a plan.
It helps you know exactly what you're getting out of it.
It helps you negotiate better.
Because when you know the value you are negotiating for, you negotiate harder than when the value
is not clear.
You're like, well, I'm not sure I'm going to get me, but let's just try anyway.
That doesn't get you very much.
But with specificity, you understand exactly what you need.
You can articulate what you need.
When people go to make the case for you, when your division chief goes to your department
chair, when your department chair goes to your dean, they can say, well, this is why
this faculty member wants protected time.
And boy, she has a clear, clear understanding of what this time will do for her.
And so you want to get clarity on what protected time will do for you.
And that is the basic starting point of any negotiation of protected time.
Okay.
That's number one.
So that is the starting point of any negotiation for protected time.
Okay, that's number one.
Number two, develop a strategic plan for your protected time.
Many times what I see, and this I see often with my fellows, and honestly too with junior
faculty, with early career faculty, and that is that you get all this protected time and
there's this sense of like, ah, I have all the time I need.
I'm going to relax and figure things out and it's going to be okay.
And I am not an advocate for being a crazy person.
I'm not an advocate for stress.
I'm not an advocate for anxiety, but I am an advocate for a clear plan for your productivity.
You got to have a plan because guess what happens when you don't have a plan while other
people have plans for you.
Dr. Lemmoner, oh, you probably free on Friday.
I have three patients who have no doctor to see them.
Could you please, please, please see them?
And you are such a lovely person, Dr. Lemmoner.
The moment they ask you, you're like, well, let me look and see what I'm doing on my schedule.
Oh, oh, I am free.
Sure.
I'll see the three patients.
Oh, I know it won't take me more than 30 minutes.
Seven hours later, you were still in the clinic.
And that day just went away.
And it happens more often than not, especially when you don't have a plan for your protected
time.
But what would it look like if somebody reached out to you and said, Dr. Lemmoner, you know,
on Friday, I noticed that you're not in the clinic, but we really, really, really, really,
really need help.
And you'll say, hmm, let me look at my schedule.
Let me look at my plan.
And you're like, oh, wow, that's the day I will be writing the introduction to the manuscript
that needs to go out in four weeks.
I'm not available.
Do you see what difference it makes to have a plan?
And so don't ever go to negotiate protected time.
You do not have a plan for what you're going to do with the protected time.
So how do you figure out your plan?
There are a number of options.
Number one, you could work with somebody who's already figured out a way to plan for their
protected time.
Maybe this person is a research mentor.
Perhaps this person is a peer or a near peer mentor.
Perhaps there is a research productivity program that you could get into.
Perhaps you come to one of our coaching programs and we show you how to have a plan for your
protected time.
But the information is out there.
Don't go into any negotiation about protected time.
You don't have a plan.
So this is what a conversation with your division chief or your chair could look like.
I'm requesting protected time for the next year because what I really need to do is increase
my publication productivity and submit two proposals for funding.
I will, over the next 12 months of this time that I get, I will produce two manuscripts
for submission and I will produce two grants that will be submitted.
The first grant will go to the National Foundation for Researchers Who Are Trying to Make It
and the second grant will go to the NIH and it will be an R21.
Okay, that's a plan.
And the reason you need to have a plan is because somebody needs confidence to be able
to vouch for you in the negotiation.
You need a plan so you have something to work towards and you're not at the end of this
one year trial period, whatever it is you negotiate, saying, oh, wow, that time went
by quickly.
What did I get out of it?
So develop a strategic plan for your protected time.
All right, step number three in negotiating your protected time, you got to create the
structure to guarantee your productivity.
Okay, so when you have all this seemingly free time at your disposal, it's hard to know
what to do with it.
And one place I see it the most is in my fellows who have just finished their first year of
clinical training and they transition into their second year and it's like, oh, all this
time I can catch up on my sleep.
I can visit my friends.
I can travel all over the country.
And it's great.
Please do that.
I mean, it's really important that you take care of yourself, care.
But what happens is that with all those wonderful things that you're doing, it's like, where's
the structure to have the productivity that you have planned for?
How do you guarantee that productivity?
What does your Monday look like?
What does Tuesday look like?
Oh yeah, you're going to go to the beach.
Great.
But you're going to go to the beach at two o'clock.
What are you doing between 10 a.m. and 2 p.m.?
What is the structure for your writing?
Not just, oh, I feel like writing today or I don't really feel like writing today.
What is the structure that guarantees that your research continues to move forward within
that protected time no matter what?
So when you are going to negotiate protected time, don't negotiate protected time without
a plan and do not negotiate protected time without a structure that allows you to execute
that plan because it's great that you have specificity.
It's great that you know what you want to do.
But how are you going to guarantee your outcome?
Now at the end of the day, there are no guarantees in life.
I'm not naive about that.
But what are you doing to create the structure that actually leads to the outcome you desire?
And I will tell you that it's not easy.
It's not straightforward.
This is why I'm a coach.
This is why I show people how to do it.
This is why we have coaching programs.
This is why we teach people about how to negotiate so that you can have the space and the structure
to lead your own research program.
This is not an easy thing, but you do need to do it because creating the structure allows
you to deliver on the promise that you are going to make your protected time count.
And by the time you're going in to negotiate, you haven't even negotiated this protected
time.
But being able to articulate what that structure looks like increases the confidence of the
person who will help you make the case that you can have this protected time and do well
with the protected time.
Okay.
Number four, investigate the options to shrink your clinical footprint.
And so sometimes I hear from people and they'll tell me, oh, I really love seeing patients.
I don't want to stop seeing patients.
I'm not asking you to stop seeing patients.
I'm asking you to make the investment that's necessary for your productivity as a clinician
scientist.
And for many of us, if you're in the clinic, you know that the half a day of clinic turns
into a three-quarter day if you're lucky.
And if you're not so lucky, it really literally could be the full day.
And if we're counting, you're wrapping up the notes and following up with the patients,
okay, the day is gone.
The day is gone.
So how do you take that half day of clinic and make it a true half day?
How do you do that?
So part of negotiating a protected time is maximizing the time you already have.
And if you take, if there was a half day of clinic and you are spending the whole day
in clinic, including wrapping up the notes and including talking with the patients and
to be honest, and if you're honest, sometimes these things are spilling into the following
day.
How do you take a half day clinic and make it as half a day as possible?
What are your options to optimize and maximize the help that you get in the clinic so that
your half day doesn't become a day and a half?
How do you do that?
And it takes strategic thinking.
What are some other equivalent clinical options that don't take as much time or have more
support than the support you currently have?
For example, perhaps you're in a solo clinic.
You have no MA.
You have no scheduler.
You are literally the doctor, the vitals taker, the MA, the nurse, the triage specialist,
and the person calling all the patients back.
Well guess what?
As you finish your half day of clinic as a physician, then you're going into your half
day of clinic as the administrative person.
And so if you don't have that support, how do you negotiate that support for yourself
so that you do your half day of work as a clinician and somebody else does the half
day of work of administrative tasks that need to support your clinical work?
Okay, if you can't negotiate that, how about the spaces that give you the same RVUs, clinical
RVUs, with less time invested?
What about the fellows clinic at the VA?
Can you be the preceptor for the fellows clinic?
Oh yeah, you're there for the half day.
But when the half day is done, you're not on the hook for any of the notes the fellows
are.
This is if you're a faculty member.
And if you're a fellow, it's like what could it look like getting the notes ready before
the clinic day so that at the end of the clinic day you literally are able to say my notes
are done, I am done.
What can you do to shrink the footprint so that your half a day of clinic is really a
half day of clinic and that gives you the rest of the half a day to actually be able
to have protected time to move your work forward?
And all you really need to start with is 30 minutes a day to advance your research.
But you do need it consistently.
You need a minimum of 30 minutes a day.
And I'll talk a little bit more about that in a future episode.
But what you want to do as you're negotiating protected time is to start to create it for
yourself.
Take your weekly schedule and say, where can I fight tooth and nail to protect my time?
If Friday is, say, your administrative day, how can you have a day where it's like nobody
gets to call me and interrupt my research time no matter what?
How do you make it a non-negotiable?
I know it looks like I'm free, but I'm not available to do an extra clinic on Friday
because I'm working on my research.
And they're like, well, but you're a clinical faculty member.
Whatever it is, you protect your own time because the protected time you have is a protected
time you create.
Nobody else will create it for you.
And in fact, if you really think about it, people are kind of fighting against you to
minimize your protected time.
They're not doing it intentionally.
It's just, you know, whenever we think there is a space, we try to fill it.
And even people who are well-intentioned will do it.
Your mentor will say, oh, my goodness, I'm going out of town.
I really need your coverage.
Please, please, please help me.
And unless you have a plan to protect the time you already have, it'll be taken from
you, not maliciously, but just because it's the way things go.
OK.
Investigate what options you have to shrink your clinical footprint.
OK.
Number five, write your wish list.
Don't go into the negotiation without a plan for how you will create this time.
So you go in, you have a list.
Hey, I'm here to talk about really expanding the protected time I have to do research.
What I really want is 75% protected time.
But I do want to start with increasing my protected time from the 20% I have right now to 50%.
Here's how I think it will work.
I'd like to be able to transition into the Fellows Clinic so that I can supervise the
Fellows and that buys me back the time that I usually take writing notes in the afternoon
or running around doing the patient follow up.
Now with this time, I will be able to do X, Y, Z. Right.
You go into that negotiation with a list of things that you want and how you see those
things playing out.
Don't ever go into negotiation without the wish list.
What does a wish list do for you?
There's option one.
This is what I want.
I want to do 75%.
And when they say, oh, oh, oh, they can't do 75%, you're like, okay, I'd like to go
from 25% to 40%.
Here is how I see that happening.
And then they're like, oh, I don't think we can do 40%.
I'm like, okay, let's do 30%.
And let's change this feature.
And let's give me a PA that allows me to maximize the time I already have.
Let's stop me from taking this call that's actually biting into the time that I would
otherwise have to be clear headed and able to do work in the morning.
Have a plan.
Have a wish list.
So number one, it's like a note.
Okay, number two.
Note number three.
What's number three?
What's number four?
Have a wish list.
Okay.
Now go in and negotiate with your administrator.
You're going to have a conversation.
Now, can I talk to you about negotiating with your administrator?
You're not in a fight.
You're not desperate.
What you have is what you already have.
You're not there to fight.
You're not there to argue.
You're just there to state your case.
And more importantly, you're there to listen.
They may start off and say, hey, Dr. Lumina, I know that you really want to move research
forward and I can see that.
Wow, you really come up with a plan, but we've just lost three faculty.
We are not able to honor your request right now.
Listen to that.
And then ask great questions.
So what would it take for us to be able to honor my request?
And they might tell you, well, you know, when we are able to hire three faculty, don't take
that because I don't know when those three faculty are coming.
You're not in control of those three faculty coming in.
But what you say is I see that this is a challenging thing and I can see why you may not want to
have a faculty member out of the clinic at a time when you are in a crunch.
But how can we still make this work even though we're three faculty members down?
Okay, start to ask the kinds of questions that lead you to come around the table, to
be on the same side of the administrator, to understand their concerns while also not
conceding what you want.
So what you're not doing is saying, I insist, it's my way or the highway.
But what you're continuing to ask is how?
How can we make this happen?
I have this plan, but you're saying it won't work.
How can we make it work?
Okay, you're saying the resources are not available.
What resources are available?
Okay, you're not able to give me extra time, but how can you help me make the time that
I have available?
Who is available for resource support?
Can we hire an MA?
Who is a scribe that might be available to help me?
And so many of the questions you want to ask are the open-ended questions so that they
are starting to do the work of thinking and expanding the pie.
The principle of negotiation that's always critical is you want to expand the pie because
the bigger the pie, the bigger your slice gets.
It may still only be 1%.
The 1% of a small pie is different from 1% of a huge pie.
So what you want to do is ask the kinds of open-ended questions that lead the administrative
person you're negotiating with to start to help you expand the pie so that at the end
of the day, your percentage is still the same.
But whoa, is it a big percentage?
Okay, so that's what you want to do.
You want to negotiate.
You want to negotiate well.
And then what's number seven?
You're going to do it again.
Oh, you're going to do it again.
So yeah, best case scenario.
You go into the negotiation one time and you come out with what you want.
Celebrate, celebrate, celebrate.
Good for you.
The worst case scenario is you get a no, but you've started the conversation.
And guess what?
You're coming back because you are not playing.
If you're going to negotiate protected time for yourself, you're here for the long game.
You're not here for the short game.
It may be no today, but we're going to do this conversation again.
Okay, middle of the road scenario.
You got some concessions.
There are some concessions you didn't get.
You're coming back again because you're not going to stop negotiating until your career
is the career you want.
Did you hear what I said?
You're never going to stop negotiating until your career is the career you want.
And guess what?
When you get the career you want, when you become the clinician scientist you want to
be, guess what?
You're going to negotiate again because as you continue to advance towards your goals,
they get bigger, they get bigger, they get bolder, they get more confident.
You have more that you're going to contribute, they get bigger.
And so you're always going to be negotiating for bigger and better because that's what
allows you to have the most impact.
So I'm going to challenge you this week to think about one negotiation that's going to
move your career forward in the area of protected time for your research.
It doesn't matter if you're 100% full-time clinician.
If research is what you want to do, you absolutely should go for it.
What is one thing that's going to make a difference for you?
I want you to make a plan and an appointment with your administrative leader to negotiate
for it this week.
And if I can help you, if you are able to do it successfully, send me a DM, go to our
website, clinicianresearcherpodcast.com, and leave me a voicemail.
Tell me how it went for you.
I want to hear about it.
Imagine what it would take.
Imagine the results that you could have if every year you negotiated something that moved
you closer to your goal.
What?
Don't even wait for the year.
If every three months you negotiated for something that moved you closer to be the clinician
scientist you want to be, what kind of career would you have after a year of negotiating?
The two years of negotiating would not be awesome.
Okay.
If you want to learn more about negotiation, you totally got to show up to our master class.
It's August 21st.
It's at 6 p.m.
Sign up on our website, clinicianresearcherpodcast.com.
Ask for more information.
We'll send you the information to sign up, and it's going to be great.
All right.
It's been a pleasure talking with you today.
You got to share this episode with somebody.
Somebody needs to negotiate for protected time.
You got to share this with them.
All right.
I'll talk to you next time.
Thanks for listening.
I hope you enjoyed this episode.
If you did, please like, share, and subscribe.
And if you have any questions, please leave a comment below.
I'll see you next time.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher Podcast, where academic
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