Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic clinicians learn the skills
to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
As clinicians, we spend a decade or more as trainees learning to take care of patients.
When we finally start our careers, we want to build research programs, but then we find
that our years of clinical training did not adequately prepare us to lead our research
program.
Through no fault of our own, we struggle to find mentors, and when we can't, we quit.
However, clinicians hold the keys to the greatest research breakthroughs.
For this reason, the Clinician Researcher podcast exists to give academic clinicians
the tools to build their own research program, whether or not they have a mentor.
Now introducing your host, Toyosi Onwemene.
Hello everybody.
Welcome to the Clinician Researcher podcast.
This is your host, Toyosi Onwuemene.
I am excited to be talking with you today because I have a special guest with me, Dr.
Shakira Grant.
And in just a moment, I'm going to get Dr. Grant to introduce herself.
And I just want you to know it's going to be a great interview.
And so if you can think of a mentee or somebody else who's a colleague who needs to hear her
words of wisdom, please definitely share this episode with them.
Now to Dr. Grant.
Welcome Shakira.
How are you?
Hi, I'm doing well.
Thank you so much for having me today.
Thank you for being with us on the show.
It's such a pleasure to have you.
Our audience wants to get to know you a little bit better.
So please introduce yourself to them, especially with regards to your role as a clinician researcher.
Sure.
So I am currently an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill.
I'm currently in my third year as faculty there.
And my background training is as a geriatric hematologist and oncologist.
And as a researcher, I spend the majority of my time engaged in patient-centered research
that focuses on older Black adults with multiple myeloma and trying to address some of the
healthcare and health disparities that affect this population.
Wow.
Dr. Grant, you're doing a lot.
I want to ask you, Dr. Grant, because when we think about our training, we spend all
of our training doing clinical work, really.
So at what point did you make the transition where you saw yourself not just as a clinician,
but as a clinician researcher?
Yeah.
So I think for me, the journey was a little bit different because I was trained in Barbados,
which is my home country.
And my training in Barbados was always clinically focused.
Coming through medical school, we always heard that the whole point of going through the
training was really to make us these exceptional clinicians.
So I really didn't have early experiences with research or having a research focus.
And what I ended up doing, my first entry into research was actually while I was a senior
house officer, which is the equivalent of a resident at the time, believe it or not,
in orthopedics in Barbados.
And I actually carved out a research project where I would be looking at assessing the
prevalence of bone tumors or bone cancers in this population within Barbados.
And that led to my first post-presentation at something known as the Caribbean Conference
of Orthopedic Surgeons in St. Lucia.
And it was really from there that I said, you know, this research thing, you know, maybe
I want to try it on a little bit more.
But after that early experience, I still was clinically immersed working in Barbados as
a physician and then ultimately in Bermuda as a clinician.
And it wasn't until I actually immigrated to the US and did my residency training that
I really started to see the connection between needing to do research in order to be able
to be well positioned to really provide excellent clinical care.
And I started to see that, especially when it came to the older adult population, I realized
that was a community where a population where we don't have a lot of data to support a lot
of the interventions or the approaches that we use, especially in oncology.
And I began to get really interested, especially in older adult oncology.
So I would say it really started in my residency training.
And this is after a background where I was really clinically focused for several years
after graduation from medical school.
Wow.
Thank you for sharing that.
I have to say that there are a couple of things that really stand out to me in your story.
Number one, you carved out a research project.
Never having done research, you carved out a project.
Can you tell me what that was like?
What led you to believe that you could do that?
I know, right?
It's always interesting looking back in hindsight.
But I think for me, that came out of actually an area of disappointment, I would say.
And what that disappointment had looked like at the time was that I was actually finishing
my medical school training.
And in Barbados, our system is structured like the UK model, where we do five years
of medical school, and then there is a mandatory internship period for one year after.
So after I was completing my internship, I was always interested in oncology as a specialty.
And unfortunately, we didn't have a specialty where I could specialize in oncology at my
hospital in Barbados.
And I actually applied to try to get into internal medicine residency in Barbados, and
I didn't get accepted.
There were just too few slots and too many people.
So I was left in this quandary of trying to figure out what am I going to do after my
year of internship had ended.
And luckily, I came upon a mentor who was an orthopedic surgeon.
He knew of my love for oncology.
And he felt like having that year as a resident or a senior house officer in orthopedics would
allow me to kind of take a different approach, which is thinking about bone cancers.
So a way of looking at musculoskeletal oncology, essentially, during that time.
And it really was something that they didn't have established, where they already knew
like how many bone tumors they were seeing.
So it was like a win-win for us both.
So he was providing this opportunity, full internship for me.
And then by the way, I was able to carve out this kind of project by going through this
retrospective chart review to basically evaluate the epidemiology of bone tumors within our
particular hospital system.
Wow.
Okay, so what I hear is you being ready and taking the opportunity, but also you got fortunate
in meeting somebody who helped you move further.
So you were ready.
And when the opportunity came, you took it.
Yes.
Wow.
I agree.
Yeah.
I think, just if I could expand on that, one of the things as I look back on that really
early experience, it really helped me to understand the importance of mentorship.
And not only just mentorship, as you think about just having somebody there who's senior
or someone who's junior, but also sponsorship.
So somebody who is looking out for you and who can just open that door when sometimes
it feels like you don't have a lot of options for you, which is what essentially happens
to me after my internship.
Like I thought I didn't have a lot of options.
But here we were able to create this creative position that allowed me to do research, allowed
me to engage in the oncology space, but really coming at it from a different angle.
I love it.
I love the word you use, create.
You're creating.
And when you were talking about even the research you're doing right now, it sounds like you're
still creating.
So tell me about how that experience shapes how you move forward in your research right
now.
Yeah.
I think for me, one thing that I've come to realize is that I am never going to be one
who's going to go with the status quo.
I recognized that very early on that if there is a path that is well-trodden, you could
be assured that I am probably going to take the alternative path that will require building
new connections, new bridges, and new, kind of like all these ideas around programmatic
growth and development.
And so knowing that about myself, it seems like I really like to rise to these types
of challenges.
And this is really exemplified in my research currently where this is truly a transdisciplinary
approach to doing research.
It not only draws on geriatrics, oncology, hematology, but also involves public health
because what we're doing is trying to reach people in their communities where they're
at.
And so that really relies on that community engagement piece, which is not necessarily
what you get when you do mainstream geriatrics or mainstream hematology research.
And so it's allowed me to really be nimble in all of these different spaces to really
engage in this research and to try to bring the research to the Black community, especially
that is affected by multiple myeloma.
Wow.
This is really awesome.
And one of the things that highlights for me is that clinicians, even though we haven't
had research training in our background, we're leaders and we're embedded in the space where
we see the patient challenges.
We can go where research should go, even though we don't have the training.
And so what an opportunity to create something that is needed, but for you to actually be
leading your program, you're not like, oh, I don't know what I'm doing.
You're actually leading it, which is incredible.
And it makes me wonder though that it can be easy, right?
It can't be easy.
So what's been the hardest piece of building this research program that you're running?
Yeah.
So I think the hardest piece is really to know that you are building something that
there is not a well-throttened path.
And whenever you try to go down the path of the most resistance, you can definitely expect
that you will encounter a lot more hurdles and barriers because you are more apt to hear
responses as we've never done that before.
We don't know how to do this.
I'm not sure this is going to work.
And so what it really takes is just this drive and this dedication to really help others
see that even though we have not done this previously in this way, that we are going
to be open to new ideas, new collaborations, and potentially trying things a different
way.
And I think one of the things that really comes out from walking down this path where
you're essentially building and navigating the road at the same time is that you have
to be not afraid to fail.
So you have to realize that there are going to be challenges that are going to come up.
You're going to fail, but you have to keep driving forward and thinking about creative
ways in which you can help to overcome the barriers and the obstacles because it is very
easy to turn back and to say, you know what, I'm not going to pursue this line of research.
It's just too hard.
I'm just going to do something that is more commonplace or more expected.
But then at the end of the day, I feel like that is not living true to me.
And what are my internal motivators for really engaging in this type of research?
Thank you for sharing that.
I hear two things.
One is that you are having an adventure, creating something amazing, and it's challenging.
But in pushing forward, pushing past the barriers, you get more fulfillment because when you
see forward motion, it helps you recognize that your work is worth doing.
Exactly.
Yeah, I definitely would second that as a really wonderful summary because it gives
you this, I don't know, but for me, it gives me this additional feeling of accomplishment.
It makes me realize that I am not only now building this road and walking on it at the
same time, but I'm also now potentially creating a path for others who may have looked ahead
at the obstacles that lay before them and felt as if this is not possible, this is not
doable, it's too difficult.
But by moving forward with each step, I think it encourages others who may be coming behind
me to also not be afraid to step outside of the box and create your own avenues if there
are no avenues that exist for you to essentially walk alone.
Wow, I love that.
So what I see you doing is you're blazing the trail and then you're lighting fires
and all of a sudden you're like, hey, everyone, you can do this, follow me.
Yeah, yeah.
I love it.
Now what has kept you from giving up?
Because you've had some challenging times.
So what's helped you stay on track?
So I would say for me, staying on track comes down to really two things.
One, I will speak openly about my faith as a Christian.
That is something that has really kept me grounded and kept me going forward even in
the most challenging times.
The other is that I carry this weight of if I fail, if I turn back now, I'm essentially
saying to the other people who are coming behind, who may look like me, who may not
have opportunities, that this road is so hard that all we can do is try, but at the
end the result is the same.
We fail, we turn back and we go down the path that others expect.
So those are my two main motivators and what has kept me grounded is knowing that this
is not just for me about reaching a goal post and reaching some level of fulfillment.
This is also about leaving a legacy behind so that those who are coming after me can
have something that they can work towards and they can build towards.
I see that there's a great sense of purpose, the sense that what you're doing is bigger
than you and also the sense that you have an obligation to work hard, to move the path
forward and not to give up at this opportunity.
And so that keeps you going because you feel like you have fidelity to the purpose.
Yes, that is correct.
I love it.
I love it because one of the things that I share with people who are thinking about this
path and like, if you're going to do this, this is hard, don't just do what somebody
else gives you.
Don't just go the easy way because it is easy.
You will succeed, but it doesn't fulfill you.
And when the rejections come, you can't be sustained because it's not even what you want
to do.
And so what I'm hearing you say is that it's hard.
Even when you choose the path where it's like, this is what I really want to do.
It's still hard, but it's easier because it allows you to keep going because you have
a sense of purpose about what you're doing.
Yeah, yeah, that's for sure.
I think having that internal, and again, I think it goes back to knowing what are your
internal motivators, you know?
And many of us, as I've been reflecting on this lately, a lot of the times when we are
forging these types of careers where there is not a path that is well trodden and we're
trying to create it, it is because of the stories that we carry.
It's because of our lived experiences that has shaped our passion and our commitment
to doing this.
So then it moves beyond just, you know, who may be coming in the future, but it's kind
of looking back at that past, looking back at your past self and saying, you know, I
don't want to disappoint my past self.
I want to take all of the experiences, all the struggle, all the challenges, and I want
to use that to be able to create something that then leaves a legacy, not more disappointment
and more, you know, a hurt and challenge, but something that can be used and turned
into something positive.
Wow, I love that.
It's like every challenge you've ever been through, everywhere you've been broken, everywhere
you've been hurt, to package it and make it count for someone else.
So it's like not to waste the pain, but to use it to create good in the world.
Yes.
Oh, I love it.
I love it.
Okay, we're nearing the end of our time.
I just want to ask you to think about the person who's listening to you right now.
He's like, I'm a clinician.
I've only ever done a clinician, clinical stuff all my life.
I've never done research and Dr. Shakira is so awesome.
She's doing all these things, but I'm not like her.
What do you want to tell?
How would you tell this person about pursuing a path to achieving their dream as a clinician
researcher?
Yeah, I think the first is not being afraid to step out and try something new because
you came from a primarily a clinician background, just like myself.
I mean, if you asked me 10 years ago, if I would have been a clinician scientist or
a clinician researcher, I would have said no, because all I knew at that time was that
we were MDs or in this case we're MBBS, but medical doctors and medical doctors see patients
and that was kind of it, right?
But if you are not afraid to try something new and you're really passionate about discovery
and continuing to advance science in a way that then comes back and could be beneficial
to the patients that you see, I would say go for it.
There is nothing wrong with immersing yourself in research.
I don't believe that there is any timeline to this.
I don't believe that you're too late or you've been in practice for too long.
I think there are always ways in which we could contribute to advancing science no matter
where we may be in our medical careers or our overall journey.
Thank you.
That is inspiring.
And I would say that if I was not a clinician researcher right now, I would say sign me
up.
I'm going to do this.
I just want to thank you Shakira for coming on the show today and talking to our audience.
Your story is inspiring and you're clearly doing great things in the world.
And I feel very happy for your mentees because they've got a great mentor in you.
And I just want to thank you for the work you're doing and thank you for sharing with
our audience today.
Thank you so much for having me.
It was such a pleasure.
Thank you.
All right.
Thank you everyone.
So you've heard Dr. Grant's.
This is doable.
You can do it too.
And I just want to encourage you that if for whatever reason you're like, I'm not sure.
I still don't know.
I want to ask you to go ahead and talk to someone today like Dr. Grant who's around
you who's doing this and just go ahead and say, how did you do this?
And as you talk to more people, you're going to find out that this is a path that many
clinicians are treading.
We're not experts, but we're becoming experts.
We're forging the way forward.
And if we can do it, you can do it too.
If you want to sign up for our newsletter, get more tips about how to grow in your path
as a clinician researcher, please head to our website, docseedresearch.com, sign up
for our weekly newsletter.
And most importantly, this has been such an awesome message from Dr. Grant.
I want you to share it with someone who needs to hear it.
All right.
Thank you for listening and we'll see you again next time.
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Clinician Researcher podcast, where academic
clinicians learn the skills to build their own research program, whether or not they
have a mentor.
If you found the information in this episode to be helpful, don't keep it all to yourself.
Someone else needs to hear it.
So take a minute right now and share it.
As you share this episode, you become part of our mission to help launch a new generation
of clinician researchers make transformative discoveries that change the way we do healthcare.