1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,520 In this episode of the Zoologist's Campfire, I have the opportunity to speak with Dr. 2 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:16,920 Anthony Herrell. 3 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:22,920 Anthony is a permanent researcher at the French CNRS and he works at the Muséum Nationale 4 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:28,200 de Histoire Naturelle in Paris, where he heads the FunEvol group. 5 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,920 The FUN in FunEvol stands for functional. 6 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:37,480 He is also associated with the universities of Ghent and Antwerp in Belgium and Bern in 7 00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:39,200 Switzerland. 8 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,480 And whenever I try to email him, I always get a reply from some exotic corner of the 9 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:45,640 world. 10 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,060 So suffice it to say that Anthony moves around a lot. 11 00:00:50,060 --> 00:00:54,600 In all these places, he studies the evolution of complex and integrated musculoskeletal 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:55,600 systems. 13 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:01,800 He has published more than 500 scientific articles in many books on a range of organisms 14 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:08,720 from fruit flies, fish, snakes, turtles, birds, cuttlefish, to various mammals like primates, 15 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,800 rodents, bats. 16 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,240 But his favorite subjects are lizards. 17 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,280 Anthony, welcome to the podcast. 18 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,000 Thank you very much. 19 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:24,200 Good to have you finally in front of the camera, just trying to get a hold of you. 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,880 You were in the US, you were in Fringe Guiana, and you're always moving around. 21 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:29,880 Absolutely. 22 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,400 And chasing lizards again, I imagine. 23 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:37,560 Chasing lizards, working on mammals, doing dissections. 24 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:41,560 So yeah, many different reasons to go different places. 25 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,520 Filming salamanders recently as well. 26 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:44,880 Oh, salamanders. 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:45,880 Where were you? 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:51,320 We were in the United States with a colleague of mine, Ron Bonnet, to film cave salamanders 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,000 from the Ozarks, and so really cool. 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,000 Yes. 31 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:57,000 Awesome. 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,680 You also have hellbenders there, right, in the Ozarks? 33 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,160 Yeah, absolutely. 34 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:02,640 Yeah, awesome. 35 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,920 So plenty to choose from, I imagine, with adventures. 36 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,880 Where will you take us first? 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,680 Which stories did you have in mind? 38 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:18,000 So for my first story, which I think is still one of my, probably one of my favorite stories 39 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:24,080 about kind of the fields and kind of adventures in the field, took place in Gabon. 40 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,760 Oh, oh, nice place to go. 41 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:35,640 So I was looking up a long time ago, I think we went in 2000, so 24 years ago, with a colleague 42 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:39,440 of mine, Dominique Adriaens, from the University of Ghent. 43 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,920 We had organized an expedition to Gabon. 44 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:45,720 He had some contacts there to find fish, catfish. 45 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:46,880 Okay. 46 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,720 And he was very interested in the evolution of these really elongated catfish that are 47 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:53,400 different from your typical catfish. 48 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,160 And so these things actually go on land. 49 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,360 We had some interesting results off of the studies where we see these animals actually 50 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:01,760 capturing prey on land. 51 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,760 And so this became a little highlight of that study. 52 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:12,200 However, to get the fish, which were not available in any aquarium trade, go to the field and 53 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:13,200 actually find them. 54 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:14,200 Yeah. 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,120 So you have them in an aquarium and they can go on land. 56 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,120 That's a bad combination. 57 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:19,120 Yes. 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:23,840 But it was a really cool kind of discovery that way. 59 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:24,840 Yes. 60 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:31,520 So we finally make it out to Gabon, direct flight from through Paris to Gabon. 61 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:32,720 So we get there. 62 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,920 First thing we have to do is get a vehicle. 63 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:41,280 We were lucky enough that our American colleagues were friendly enough to allow us to use their 64 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,720 vehicle for which we had to get insurance and everything. 65 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:51,240 So we spent a day or two getting everything organized before heading all the way north 66 00:03:51,240 --> 00:04:00,200 in Gabon, close to the Cameroonian border in a village called Makoku. 67 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,760 This is seriously middle of Africa as tropical as it gets. 68 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,840 Middle of Africa, tropical rainforests. 69 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:15,560 I mean, it is one of the most remote places I think I've been. 70 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:17,640 Really far from everything. 71 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:21,440 And people there are incredibly friendly. 72 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:27,600 But most of the villages we were had rarely or ever seen a white person like me. 73 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,520 So this was kind of a very unusual kind of scenario. 74 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,440 So before we were able to get out into the field, we're driving around town, pick up 75 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,520 the vehicle, get the insurance, everything ready. 76 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,200 And of course we get stopped by the local cops. 77 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,640 We just followed everybody else doing a left turn at an intersection. 78 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,720 But of course we were not allowed to do this kind of left turn to the intersection. 79 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:58,080 And after a lot of hassling, Dominique talks to the cop and he says like, the cop had said 80 00:04:58,080 --> 00:04:59,960 like, okay, we're going to confiscate your vehicle. 81 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:01,680 You can't leave to the field and everything. 82 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,080 So Dominique says like, oh, okay. 83 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:05,280 So do we have to pay a fine? 84 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:07,600 And the guy was like, yes, you have to pay fine. 85 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,040 And Dominique says, can we pay the fine right now? 86 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,040 And he said, sure, 300 CFA. 87 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:14,880 And so that was done with over with. 88 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:24,040 We were relieved that we could actually just pay a little bribe and head off the next morning. 89 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:29,440 And so this is also part of doing fieldwork in different areas where you get confronted 90 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:33,640 with different types of the way administration works. 91 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:39,680 So we make it out to the field and we were very lucky. 92 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,520 We actually get our catfish. 93 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,280 So we go all the way to North to Makoko. 94 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:50,360 Then we got all the way East to go on to O'Yam to find different species of these kinds of 95 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:51,360 cats. 96 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,560 And you do this, you bring nets and you just walk into river. 97 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,440 We try to catch more cells. 98 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,040 Obviously we have no luck whatsoever. 99 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:04,560 So we go to villages, we ask local people to help us. 100 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,280 And the fishermen, local fishermen are very good. 101 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:07,760 They know these animals. 102 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:13,000 But of course, because these villages are extremely isolated, so we learned the local 103 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,040 word for these fish. 104 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:17,880 Like in Makoko, it was in Ndaga. 105 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:23,560 We moved like 20 kilometers further and then the name changed and nobody knew what we're 106 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:24,560 talking about. 107 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,920 So we had pictures of the fish and then we showed them and they obviously recognized 108 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:28,920 them. 109 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,200 They're very good at showing us and helping us capture these fish. 110 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,560 We also captured a whole suite of other fish, a bunch of more married fish, which are really 111 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,280 interesting that live there. 112 00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:40,920 With the long nose and the electric organs. 113 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:45,400 So it was a very interesting trip. 114 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,160 We got to see a lot of the local wildlife as well. 115 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,240 We ate a lot of bush meat. 116 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:58,200 Some of which I prefer not to eat, but you have no choice. 117 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,880 One of the villages, one of the local guys came up to us with a bucket full of caterpillars, 118 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:05,760 which was considered a local snack. 119 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:06,760 Lovely. 120 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:08,560 Which of course we had to try. 121 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,040 And so that was also part of the experience. 122 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,720 Is that the weirdest thing you've eaten? 123 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,640 I've eaten a lot of weird things. 124 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,680 I'm always happy to try things once. 125 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,240 The problem with these caterpillars was that they were urticating. 126 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,240 So it's not pleasant. 127 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,040 After one, no thank you. 128 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,520 I will leave the delicious caterpillars. 129 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:33,520 Yeah. 130 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,080 But yeah, so a lot of interesting things. 131 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:38,080 We got to catch fish. 132 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,200 We have live animals with us that we're going to go and take back to Belgium. 133 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:46,600 And on our way back, we go to redrive from France Ville, which is in the Savannah area 134 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,400 in the Southeast of Gabon. 135 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,800 And of course there's no hard roads. 136 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,440 It's all like dirt roads. 137 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,040 It's all hard getting through. 138 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,040 We have our fish. 139 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,040 We're really happy. 140 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,800 And so we drive to the Lope Reserve. 141 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:07,400 And the Lope is one of the biggest national parks in Gabon, which is an amazing diversity. 142 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,120 It's a really great place to see gorillas, chimpanzees, forest elephants, and all kinds 143 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,120 of other things. 144 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:14,120 Wow. 145 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,120 And so we're like happy. 146 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:19,080 We take a break and we're like, we're going to go with a guide into the forest and see 147 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,120 some of this diversity. 148 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:27,160 And so we're in the forest and we're looking for animals. 149 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:32,000 And all of a sudden our guide is like, oh, look, elephants. 150 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,720 And so there's a forest elephant. 151 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,960 Like maybe, I'm getting old. 152 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:39,880 My memory is not good anymore. 153 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,680 But I would say the elephant was maybe five to 10 meters away from us, pretty close in 154 00:08:44,680 --> 00:08:45,680 the forest. 155 00:08:45,680 --> 00:08:46,680 That's very close. 156 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:47,680 Yeah. 157 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:48,680 And we could see it really well. 158 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:54,160 And so we're taking pictures and we're taking some film and video camera. 159 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,640 And so we're really excited about this. 160 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,440 And all of a sudden our guides, he used to be a hunter actually. 161 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:07,200 And so a lot of the hunters converted to guides to become ecotourism and get a small income. 162 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,680 And so he's like, oh, there's a little elephant. 163 00:09:11,680 --> 00:09:16,080 So we see the baby next to the mother. 164 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:23,520 And so we could see that the guide was starting to get a little anxious and nervous. 165 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:28,560 And so he kind of looks at us and he's like looking at the elephant, he looks at us and 166 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:32,080 the elephant all of a sudden starts to bring the ears forward. 167 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:33,880 Oh, right. 168 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,640 She starts to trumpet, which is an amazing sound. 169 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:42,680 If you've never experienced it close up, it's pretty impressive. 170 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:43,680 I can imagine. 171 00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:48,520 So our guide looks at us and so there's me, Dominique, one of Dominique's former PhD 172 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:54,600 students and a guy from the capital, from the office of fisheries, who had never been 173 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:55,600 in the forest before. 174 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:03,520 There's four of us there and the guide and the guide said, when I say run, and he starts 175 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:04,520 running. 176 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:09,520 The moment he starts running, the elephant is charging us. 177 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:16,600 And so we're on foot in the middle of the rainforest with a guide running away as fast 178 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,520 as he can. 179 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:23,160 And so we're just basically running after the guide as fast as we can. 180 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,640 And so, I mean, people that haven't been in like tropical central African rainforest, 181 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,640 it's probably the densest rainforest with the most undergrowth. 182 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,500 So you can run really. 183 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:39,680 So the only thing you can do is follow an elephant trail. 184 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:42,640 And so the guide is on an elephant trail and he follows the elephant trail and we just 185 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,640 kind of follow the guide. 186 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,080 And it feels like forever. 187 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,640 And all of a sudden our guide stops. 188 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:54,520 And so we all stop and we look around and somebody's missing. 189 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,400 Oh, Dominique is no longer there. 190 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:58,400 Oh, God. 191 00:10:58,400 --> 00:10:59,400 Yeah. 192 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,800 And so the guide is like, oh, man, where is your friend Dominique and everything. 193 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:04,960 And so we're like, yeah, we don't know. 194 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,720 We thought we were all here. 195 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,360 And he's like, yeah, I mean, it's going to be complicated because it's very dangerous. 196 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,680 If he starts walking into the forest, the guide is like, I may never find it again. 197 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:19,960 Like this is like serious. 198 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,960 And so we're debating for a little bit and maybe five minutes. 199 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:30,080 And then all of a sudden we hear a tiny sound and the elephant is like two meters away from 200 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,200 us and charges again. 201 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,200 Oh, God. 202 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,360 We run literally for our lives. 203 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,360 Yeah, obviously. 204 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:43,600 And it's probably the only time that I thought, okay, I'm going to die. 205 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:44,600 It's okay. 206 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:45,600 It's fine. 207 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,800 An amazing way to die anyway. 208 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:50,800 It is. 209 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:51,800 Yeah. 210 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,000 So and again, like this is a non-nagligible. 211 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,560 There are a lot of accidents with elephants in Africa. 212 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:03,040 And unfortunately, quite a few herpetologists have been killed by elephants in the past 213 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:04,040 10 years. 214 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:05,680 So it does happen. 215 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:06,880 So we run as fast as we can. 216 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:07,880 We follow our guide. 217 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,240 And so we run, run, run, run, run until we get to river. 218 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,600 We jump in the river, cross the river. 219 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:14,960 We swim across the other side. 220 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:20,280 And then the guide is like, okay, so the elephant is not going to follow us because if she crosses 221 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,560 the river, she's too far away from me. 222 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:24,720 I see. 223 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,280 And so we're safe here. 224 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,360 And so we're still having the problem that Dominique is gone. 225 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:31,360 Yes. 226 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:36,680 And so the guide is like, I have to go back as soon as possible, find Dominique. 227 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:40,360 Again, if he moves, I'm never going to find him again. 228 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:46,040 Like we're, I mean, we're a significant distance away from where we initially saw the elephants. 229 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,040 And so the guide is like, okay, guys, you just stay here. 230 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:55,840 And he's like, if there's another elephant coming, and we're all like, he's like, he's 231 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,280 going to these big trees with these big root systems. 232 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,080 He's like, crawl in between the roots. 233 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,800 The elephants are going to get to you. 234 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:09,480 They will stay around for 24, 48 hours, but just wait, they will go away. 235 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:14,320 As he walks away back across the river, he's like, just be careful with the poisonous snakes. 236 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:15,880 Yeah, of course. 237 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,200 I won't talk for that. 238 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,960 And so we were really, I mean, we never experienced anything like this, even though I had never 239 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,380 experienced anything like this before. 240 00:13:24,380 --> 00:13:26,040 So we're like on edge. 241 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,040 Yeah. 242 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,920 And you could have lost your friend back there. 243 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,680 And so the guide is going back, finding Dominique. 244 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:37,240 And so we're waiting there, waiting there, waiting there, like the PhD students, Stan, 245 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:42,120 who was with us, like he was not happy. 246 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:47,680 That was the last time he ever did fieldwork in Gabon. 247 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:51,800 Our guide from the capital, he was also not happy because this is not what he signed up 248 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:52,800 for. 249 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,220 But we have to wait. 250 00:13:54,220 --> 00:13:55,600 We have no way to get out of the forest. 251 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:56,600 So we just wait. 252 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,840 And so it's funny because I'm just, you see me filming, I'm filming some frogs. 253 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:01,840 Okay. 254 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,560 A big fruit falling, which makes noise. 255 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:06,560 And you can see my camera jump up. 256 00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:09,160 I'm also not relaxed. 257 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,640 I'm not at ease. 258 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:17,600 And so like 25, 30, maybe 40 minutes later, the guide comes back and he had found Dominique. 259 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:18,600 Okay. 260 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:19,600 Thank you. 261 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:20,600 Well, yes. 262 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,140 Fortunately, he had the instinct. 263 00:14:23,140 --> 00:14:27,360 So he thought that he saw the guide say like, make a movement, like go to the right. 264 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,000 And he followed a little trail. 265 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,320 Good thing is the elephant actually followed us, the three of us and not Dominique. 266 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:34,320 Dominique. 267 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:35,320 He didn't see us anymore. 268 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:36,920 Didn't hear the elephant. 269 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,400 He stopped and he climbed a small tree. 270 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,100 Good idea. 271 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:50,520 And he waited in the tree and started singing Arnaud songs, which was the song we hadn't 272 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,480 been playing on the radio for a long time. 273 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:58,480 And actually the guide heard him and so found him and actually was able to retrieve them. 274 00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:59,480 Yes. 275 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:05,080 Because people underestimate how easy you can get lost in a forest with a thick undergrowth. 276 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:06,080 Absolutely. 277 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,340 And no GPS at the time. 278 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:09,340 So there is no way. 279 00:15:09,340 --> 00:15:12,840 And even with GPS, I mean, I have another story from Kenya where we got lost in the 280 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:19,000 mountain because we couldn't get GPS reception because the canopy was so thick. 281 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,920 Even on top of the mountain we had zero GPS reception. 282 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:23,920 Very frustrating. 283 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:24,920 Yeah. 284 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:25,920 Frustrating. 285 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:26,920 And then we almost fell off a cliff. 286 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,040 But it's another story. 287 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:36,080 You know, I know Dominique, so I knew he survived, but oh my God. 288 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:37,680 And so then we had to get out of the forest. 289 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,120 And so the guide is like, okay, there's two options or we can take the long way around 290 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,680 or we can take the shortcut and just get out of the forest. 291 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:49,240 So I think all of us, we had enough of our little forest experience. 292 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,000 And we said, okay, let's take the shortcut. 293 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:56,400 And so we walk into the forest and all of a sudden we come across some gorilla nests, 294 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,400 fresh. 295 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,200 And so the guide is like, oh, gorilla nests. 296 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,840 You guys want to go find the gorillas? 297 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:07,480 And we're all like, no. 298 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Too much emotion for one day. 299 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,520 And the guide is like, oh, but the gorillas won't kill you. 300 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,120 They will just stop right in front of you. 301 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:19,520 And so we're just like, no, let's just go back. 302 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,760 Can we first change our underwear, please? 303 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,920 Yeah, pretty much. 304 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:29,080 So it was a very kind of, it was super cool to see these gorilla nests and everything. 305 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:30,080 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 306 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,280 But you didn't see any gorillas. 307 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:33,520 We didn't see the gorillas. 308 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:38,720 And then like a couple, like an hour later, we had to cross an assault lake where there's 309 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,360 a lot of elephants. 310 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:43,520 There's actually like a BBC documentary where they're filming elephants in Gabon. 311 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,680 And it's exactly at this salt lake. 312 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,920 And if you look at the making of that documentary, you'll see one of the cameraman up in a tree 313 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:59,760 with the elephants like staying around him for like, oh, they are deadly. 314 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,120 I mean, they look cute, but yeah. 315 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,560 So fortunately for us, no elephants at the salt lake. 316 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,560 And so we're actually be able to get out of the forest and back to camp. 317 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,840 And it's ultimately the guide also said like, okay, Dominique, really smart move to stay 318 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,680 put and climb a tree with the elephant. 319 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,640 And so this is something that the guy told us, I don't know, I've never verified this 320 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:21,640 information. 321 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,080 He said like, if the elephant would have found you, he would have either pushed over the 322 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:26,720 tree and killed you. 323 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,840 And this is his experience as an ex hunter. 324 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,760 For him, he said the most dangerous animal in the forest was actually the elephant. 325 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:38,400 Because as a hunter, if you don't kill the elephants, the elephant will kill you. 326 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:39,400 Yes, I understand that. 327 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,720 Yeah, it was kind of his kind of take on like how dangerous these elephants can be. 328 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,080 And he said if the elephant can't push over the tree, it will actually gurgitate stomach 329 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:50,880 acid and spray that you. 330 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:51,880 Really? 331 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,680 I've never heard that one. 332 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,280 I've never heard that before. 333 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,880 So is it an urban legend or a forest legend? 334 00:17:58,880 --> 00:17:59,880 Or is it true? 335 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:00,880 I have no idea. 336 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,840 But again, this is something that would be awesome to find out. 337 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:04,840 I told this. 338 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,040 Yeah, we're not to find out really physically. 339 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,760 But I mean, yeah, no, thank you. 340 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,360 But his what he said is like, yeah, they will spray acid at you, you will fall out of the 341 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,360 tree and they will kill you anyways. 342 00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:18,360 Wow. 343 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:22,800 That was basically his take on elephants in the forest. 344 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,960 Well, okay, that's that's a hair raising story right off the bat. 345 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:34,000 So again, like and so it made me realize one thing is that if you do feel work in these 346 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:39,160 kind of places, you don't want to take people to the field that are not fit and capable 347 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:45,960 to run because at some point, there can be situations where it actually like I literally 348 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,520 thought I was running for my life. 349 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:53,480 You were and it was a dangerous situation, you know. 350 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:58,120 Especially if you tripped somewhere in the undergrowth, yeah, that would have been the 351 00:18:58,120 --> 00:18:59,120 end. 352 00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:00,120 Wow. 353 00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:01,120 Yeah. 354 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,160 So this is part of doing fieldwork in remote places. 355 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:09,320 Yeah, but it's it's an amazing story. 356 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:15,040 And I've never been to Cameroon or Gabon, but it must be a treat for you as a biologist, 357 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,040 right? 358 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:17,040 They're amazing places. 359 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,200 I mean, the people are wonderful. 360 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:24,080 But again, like in some cases, and this maybe leads me to another story. 361 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,080 Go ahead. 362 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,080 Go right. 363 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:27,680 The most dangerous thing is the people. 364 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:28,680 Really? 365 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,240 On another trip, we're actually in Cameroon. 366 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:39,480 And okay, in Cameroon, more the west side of Cameroon, close to the border with Nigeria, 367 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,280 we're there to look for a small itty bitty frog, Xenopus. 368 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:51,200 And so our goal was to find Xenopus tropicalis, which is a model system used in biology. 369 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,560 The problem is that all the lab Xenopus have zero genetic diversity because they're all 370 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:01,620 derived from a single stock which had been bred and inbred for 40, 50 years. 371 00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:07,040 And so we wanted to do this project with a colleague of mine, Camille, to look at selection 372 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,800 on traits and see how this takes place. 373 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,040 So we needed genetic diversity. 374 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,240 Sure. 375 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:19,280 We had colleagues in Cameroon that were nice enough to take us to the field. 376 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,200 Really good collaboration, colleague from Buea, colleague from Yaounde. 377 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,040 Today, we have a car with a driver. 378 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,920 And so we take us to the field. 379 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,880 First we go to a site close to the border with Gabon in southeast of Cameroon. 380 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:38,040 We catch some frogs and clearly they're not the right species, tropicalis. 381 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,320 So we go the other direction, more towards the border with Nigeria. 382 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:43,320 Okay. 383 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,200 That's really the edge of the country. 384 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:46,200 Yeah. 385 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,560 And it's a dangerous, it's a non-dangerous area because there's lots of pirates going 386 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,640 across the border. 387 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,520 It's also one of the areas where you can find Goliath frogs. 388 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,520 Oh. 389 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,860 Frogs, the biggest frogs in the world. 390 00:21:01,860 --> 00:21:03,320 So I was excited about this. 391 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,640 I was excited to be able to maybe potentially also see these frogs. 392 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:07,640 Yeah. 393 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,840 And we also have the hairy frogs, Trichobotrychus. 394 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:10,840 Beautiful, beautiful. 395 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,400 In that same area. 396 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:17,440 So really interesting biodiversity, amazing colleagues. 397 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,920 And so we head out to the field to find these animals. 398 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,840 And so we're looking, we're looking. 399 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,200 And so in every kind of forest pond that we come, we look for frogs. 400 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,200 I clear out a bunch of ponds, trying to find frogs. 401 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,880 We find tadpoles, not the right species. 402 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:41,920 And we continue looking and we go to a bunch of villages and asking them about frogs. 403 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,320 And of course, the first thing they always talk about is Trichobotrychus, the hair frog 404 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:52,080 or Goliath frogs, because most scientists up until that time had been looking for these 405 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,280 big frogs. 406 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,480 And of course, in these villages, just like we did in Gabon, like if people bring us stuff, 407 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,680 we pay them for their efforts. 408 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:01,680 Sure. 409 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,560 We set up a little like a village market more or less. 410 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,200 And so typically what you do is like in these villages, together with our colleagues from 411 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:14,880 Cameroon, we'd go and find the village chief, offer the village chief a bottle of whiskey 412 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,840 or whatever. 413 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,640 And then he assigns a couple of people that go with you to the field and try to find the 414 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,040 species you're looking for. 415 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,320 Fish, frogs, lizards, whatever. 416 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,040 And usually it's a system that works really well. 417 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,560 And so we've been successful in doing this. 418 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:37,520 And this is also what our Cameroonian colleagues suggested to do as we get to the villages. 419 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:42,680 And so at some point we get to a village and the chief is not there. 420 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:43,680 Okay. 421 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,240 I don't know, big deal. 422 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:46,240 It's a small village. 423 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,240 We talked to some people. 424 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,960 They hear that we're looking for frogs and our colleagues say like, yeah, if we can find 425 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,280 these frogs, we're willing to pay you guys some money. 426 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,280 Very normal thing that we do all the time. 427 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:01,280 Sure. 428 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:06,040 And so we start explaining, we're looking for frogs and they're immediately like, oh, 429 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:07,040 yeah, the big frogs. 430 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,720 And they take us to a big river and they show us and actually was able to see one of these 431 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:12,720 glide frogs. 432 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:13,720 Oh, yeah. 433 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,720 Awesome. 434 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,720 Amazing. 435 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,840 So there was like this big river with some cascades, like some waterfalls. 436 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,480 And then there was like, well, these big frogs. 437 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,320 But as soon as you get 20 meters from it, because people eat them locally, very afraid 438 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,840 of people and they jumped into the water. 439 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,520 But we still got to see it, so which was quite amazing. 440 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,520 And we talked to the people, we're like, no, no, no, that's not what we want. 441 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,040 We want these little itty bitty frogs. 442 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,800 And so we had a picture also, we showed them pictures. 443 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,600 And then all of a sudden this really old dude from the village, he's like, oh, I know what 444 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:47,600 you're looking for. 445 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:52,720 And he's like, did they make this sound like, look, look, look, look, look, it's really 446 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,200 like ticking sounds. 447 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,120 And like, yeah, that's it. 448 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:59,240 He actually knows what we're looking for, because these are as they call them water. 449 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,600 And so they have this kind of bizarre kind of call different from any other frog. 450 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,000 And so clearly we had somebody that knew what we were looking for. 451 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,000 And so we get excited. 452 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,480 We're like, yeah, this is what we want. 453 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,800 Where can we find them? 454 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:16,640 And he takes us to a pond in the middle of the village. 455 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:17,640 We take a basket. 456 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,280 So they make these wicker baskets. 457 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,280 We take one scoop and there's the frogs that we want. 458 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,240 We're like, yeah, frogs. 459 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,400 And all of a sudden, like a whole bunch of people started crowding us. 460 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,600 Oh, a bunch of people start crowding us. 461 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,080 The village chief was not there. 462 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,440 And most of the people in the village were completely drunk. 463 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:47,640 And so they start arguing amongst themselves who's going to catch the frogs for us and 464 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:49,680 who's going to get ultimately the money. 465 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:50,680 Yeah. 466 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:51,680 Yeah. 467 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:52,680 I see. 468 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:53,680 Oh, dear. 469 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:57,520 And then the village chief, so nobody to basically assign people to different tasks, which usually 470 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:58,520 works really well. 471 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,520 And so we're waiting a little bit. 472 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,360 We're like, yeah, I know this older man who knew where their frogs were. 473 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,400 I mean, he's clearly the one that knows. 474 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,080 And so he's the one that and then some younger guys got excited. 475 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,360 And then people started talking. 476 00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:17,360 People start shouting. 477 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:22,040 And somebody pulls out a machete. 478 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,360 Our Cameroonian colleagues are like whispering in my ear. 479 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:32,280 So me and my colleague Camille, he's like, Anthony, go to the car very quietly. 480 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,680 And so we go to the car. 481 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,400 The driver starts the car. 482 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,640 And all of a sudden, we see our two Cameroonian colleagues running to the car with a bunch 483 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,480 of people with machetes running behind them. 484 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,600 And so they get into the car and take off as fast as they could. 485 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:49,900 Yeah, obviously. 486 00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:54,040 And so this is an instance of doing field work where the danger is not the animals in 487 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,040 the forest. 488 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:03,040 But again, 99% of the time, things go really well and people are super friendly. 489 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,720 But yeah, but sometimes, yeah, sometimes it could be a little iffy. 490 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,880 And again, like, yeah, people with machetes are not. 491 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,800 Oh, no, that's not what you want to see. 492 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,320 Drunk people with machetes running after you in a place in Africa where they will never 493 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,320 find you again. 494 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:21,320 Exactly. 495 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,120 If they succeed in catching you. 496 00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:24,120 Yeah. 497 00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:25,120 So yeah. 498 00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:26,600 So we left without our phones. 499 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:27,600 Yeah. 500 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,000 Did you find them in the end or? 501 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:35,600 So what we did is we went back to the larger town close by. 502 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:36,600 We discussed a little bit. 503 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:41,120 And then my colleagues are like, okay, we're going to go back tomorrow or two days later 504 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,520 in the hope that the village chief was there. 505 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,520 Yeah. 506 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:51,320 And then the wild guys stay because clearly you're associated with the money. 507 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,160 And so they went back and talked to the village chief. 508 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,760 The village chief appointed some people and everything went smoothly. 509 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,520 And so our colleagues brought us back over 100 frogs, actually. 510 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:02,520 Wow. 511 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,520 Okay. 512 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:09,320 We then took back to the lab and I still have some of these frogs here in the lab right now. 513 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,320 How old are they? 514 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:11,320 How long ago was that? 515 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:12,400 That was 2009. 516 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:19,200 So they are 15 years old and they're still doing fine. 517 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,480 So we ultimately got our frogs. 518 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,200 Turns out like once we sequenced the frogs, again, it was not the species we were looking 519 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:26,640 for for a long time. 520 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,720 Morphologically we thought it was tropicalis. 521 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:29,720 Turns out it's alophrasery. 522 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,480 It's a very morphologically similar species. 523 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:33,480 Very interesting. 524 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,680 But look at the frog we originally thought we had. 525 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,520 You almost lost some limbs over that one. 526 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:41,520 Yeah. 527 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,280 No, I mean, yeah. 528 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:51,240 Fortunately, nobody's been after me with machetes, but I have had rocks thrown at my head several 529 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:52,240 times. 530 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,240 Yeah. 531 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:59,200 If you go around at night and you surprise people, they respond however they respond. 532 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:00,200 Right? 533 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,200 Yeah. 534 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,200 Rocks, guns. 535 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,400 I mean, that's a pretty common occurrence in most places, especially in Texas. 536 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,960 I mean, like one time we were catching lizards and we had fish and wildlife, had border patrol. 537 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,600 We had the local cops. 538 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:19,200 We had one other agency for agencies because we were on a dry riverbed, which we thought 539 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:25,200 was public land, but they told us 99% of Texas is private, boy. 540 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:26,200 Oh. 541 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,200 Yeah. 542 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:33,560 So they didn't request charges, but still it was quite the experience also. 543 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:34,560 Yeah. 544 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:35,560 Yeah. 545 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:36,560 Yeah. 546 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:37,680 And in the US there's always immediately guns. 547 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,600 I mean, give me a rock anytime. 548 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:41,600 Yes. 549 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:42,600 I agree. 550 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:43,600 But not a machete. 551 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:44,600 Yeah, no. 552 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:45,600 So again, like sometimes... 553 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:51,080 Yeah, but most of the time, as you say, the experience is very nice. 554 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,400 You get invited, the people tell you stories. 555 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:54,400 Absolutely. 556 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:55,400 Absolutely. 557 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,760 99% of the time people are super nice. 558 00:28:58,760 --> 00:28:59,760 Yeah. 559 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,000 But those are not the big stories where you run for your life again. 560 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:05,000 Yeah. 561 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,000 Awesome. 562 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,760 If you want, I can tell a final story. 563 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:11,760 Please. 564 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:12,760 Yes. 565 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:13,760 Yes. 566 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,640 Again, like it's just kind of a funny story also where we're in South Africa. 567 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,640 South Africa at this time. 568 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,640 This time is South Africa. 569 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:29,600 We're not too far from Kruger working in one of these private game reserves. 570 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:30,600 Yeah. 571 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,160 This one, I think if I remember correctly, was owned by the De Beers, the mining company. 572 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,400 They were very friendly. 573 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,200 They let us use the reserve to do our research. 574 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:41,200 Very accommodating. 575 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:48,640 So we can use the accommodation there, which typically people pay lots of money for. 576 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,920 So we're in this reserve and it's a beautiful place. 577 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,160 We're looking for lizards on this project. 578 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,040 Mostly the surdid lizards that we're looking for. 579 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,040 Oh, yeah. 580 00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,040 African lizard. 581 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:00,040 It's very exciting. 582 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,040 Yeah. 583 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,040 Interesting animals. 584 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,040 So again, most of the time we're noses on the ground, like another trip like noses on 585 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,040 the ground. 586 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:12,960 One of the guys is like, hey guys, look up and there's like four rhinos in front of us. 587 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,080 We're downwind so all is fine. 588 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,080 No big deal. 589 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,560 But we kind of have to kind of pay attention. 590 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:20,560 Yeah. 591 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:21,560 Yeah. 592 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,920 That's the thing about catching small things. 593 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,480 There could be big things watching you at the same time. 594 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,640 It's a one time in Kruger also. 595 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,640 It's not the story we're going to tell, but it's like we have a guide with us with a rifle 596 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:37,360 because we're in a reserve close to Kruger and where they put all the problem elephants. 597 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,360 Oh. 598 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,440 So the single males that are a bit like annoying. 599 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,600 And so the guys with us in the jeep and we drive to this place, the type locality for 600 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,960 one of the new species that we're looking for. 601 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:49,960 Yeah. 602 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:50,960 Lizards. 603 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:51,960 Yeah. 604 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:52,960 Yeah. 605 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:53,960 Lizards. 606 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,440 But it hadn't been seen for a long time and we're like, oh, let's go to the type locality 607 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:57,880 see if we can find it. 608 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,280 And so we get to the type locality and asked the guy with the guns like, oh, is it okay 609 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,280 if we keep out? 610 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:05,280 He's like, yeah, yeah. 611 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:10,040 And I opened the back door of the four by four and it's like a rhino in three lines 612 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,600 sitting right in front of me. 613 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,080 How can he say it's all right? 614 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:15,080 He didn't look. 615 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,120 He looked in front, not in the back. 616 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,720 So they've been following your car? 617 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,640 No, they're just back by happenstance. 618 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,240 They were just there. 619 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,160 So I looked at the guy and I'm like, are you sure he looks back? 620 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,160 He's like, no, no, no, no, no. 621 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:37,520 So yeah, well, I mean, this is part of like, so even if you have somebody with a rifle 622 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,320 with you, it's good to pay attention. 623 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:42,320 It is. 624 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:49,120 And it's not a trip like we're at the end of the day, we've been looking for lizards 625 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,840 and there's this kind of watering hole where there's hippos and of course we pay particular 626 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:53,840 attention to hippos. 627 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,840 Hippos can be quite dangerous. 628 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,440 And especially between them and the water, they will actually nothing will stop them 629 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:01,920 when they go back to the water. 630 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:03,480 So we're pretty careful. 631 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,240 We walk around, pay attention. 632 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:09,920 Don't see any hippos for now, but there's a little hill right next to the water. 633 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,400 And so we're like, oh, let's go to the top of the hill and just watch the sunset. 634 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,240 I mean, this is also part of the field work. 635 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,720 You enjoy doing scenery. 636 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:18,720 Sure. 637 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,720 A long day of work. 638 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,300 Like, okay, let's go do that. 639 00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:26,280 And so we start to, there's about five of us, I think, and so we start climbing the 640 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,120 hill and in front. 641 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,560 And all of a sudden we hear this lion roar. 642 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,680 But my body is reverberating. 643 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,680 I know what you mean. 644 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,680 Yeah. 645 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,400 It's an amazing sound. 646 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,760 It's like amazing. 647 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,800 And one of the students who's with us, she looks down in the valley, like down low, and 648 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:49,800 there's a lion there. 649 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,920 And so everybody's looking at the lion, it's like, oh, the lion just roared. 650 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,320 It's amazing, the sound. 651 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:02,120 But little did people know that I was in front and the lion that roared was actually maybe 652 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,400 five meters away from me. 653 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:07,400 Just up the hill. 654 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:15,280 And so whether he roared at the lion down, it's a male, or we were getting too close 655 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,680 to him and he was just kind of safe. 656 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,280 And so nobody had seen the lion just in front of us. 657 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,640 And so I told everybody, let's go back to the car. 658 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,120 So the car was like in between the two lions. 659 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:29,920 And I was like, let's go back to the car. 660 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:30,920 Let's stay together. 661 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:31,920 You never know. 662 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:32,920 Yeah, exactly. 663 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:33,920 We're not trying to like scare people. 664 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:34,920 No panic, no running. 665 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:35,920 Like, yeah, but it's good to stay together. 666 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:36,920 You never know. 667 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:37,920 And so we walk down to the car. 668 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:38,920 As we get into the car, I'm like, hey, look out, everybody. 669 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:39,920 Yeah. 670 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:50,080 So this is kind of like this. 671 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,520 And again, the lion didn't do anything. 672 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,520 The males are super lazy, just lie there. 673 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:02,160 And so again, like we don't know if he just roared because we were getting too close. 674 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,840 He's just kind of saying like, hey, guys, get out of here. 675 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:09,320 Or when he actually saw the other lion, which is lower down and just roared to the other 676 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:10,320 lion, we have no idea. 677 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,920 What's the experience of feeling that sound from? 678 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,360 Oh, I know. 679 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,880 I mean, I measured the bite force of lions and to be in the cage when they roar. 680 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,800 Oh my God. 681 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,440 Everything vibrates, as you say. 682 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,360 It's a special experience. 683 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:28,360 Very powerful. 684 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:29,360 Yeah. 685 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,120 It just makes your hair stand on end. 686 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,040 I had the same thing in Malaysia once with a tiger. 687 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:41,080 Now walking around and there were some bushes moving and there was a huge flock of birds 688 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,800 following but whatever was moving in the bushes overhead. 689 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,280 And then it was very, very close to us. 690 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,440 And then we heard his roar and yeah, it goes right through. 691 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,480 It was like the ground is vibrating even. 692 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,000 And then fortunately it ran away. 693 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,360 But that is a very primal fear. 694 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:58,360 Exactly. 695 00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,360 It happens to another. 696 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:05,640 And so it's a thing about Africa that I like, you feel like you're part of the prey. 697 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:06,640 I see. 698 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:07,640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 699 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,600 In most other continents, like if you go to Asia, you go to South America, it's pretty 700 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:13,600 friendly. 701 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,040 There's not too many things out there that really can do you harm or eat you. 702 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:19,960 But you're in Africa. 703 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,840 It's a different world. 704 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,840 That's where we're from. 705 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,040 Yep. 706 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,160 They evolved to eat us pretty much. 707 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,160 Yeah. 708 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,160 Exactly. 709 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,160 Amazing. 710 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,760 Oh my God, Anthony, I think you have some more stories there. 711 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,600 We've just touched Africa today. 712 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,320 So I'm going to have to get you back on sometime in the future. 713 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,120 There's some funny South America stories as well if you at some point want to hear them. 714 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,120 We totally do. 715 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:48,120 We totally do. 716 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:49,120 Amazing. 717 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,120 Yeah. 718 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,600 But Africa, maybe I'll have to tag along at some point with you. 719 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:56,600 It's a special place. 720 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,720 And so it's really near and dear to my heart. 721 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:02,880 It's amazing people, amazing biodiversity. 722 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:03,880 Is it your favorite place? 723 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,640 Because you spend a lot of time in South America as well. 724 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,960 Every place is different and I love going. 725 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:16,600 But the most interesting thing for me was to be able to see tropical rainforests both 726 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,600 in South America and Central Africa and in Southeast Asia. 727 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,600 And to appreciate the differences in these forest types that have driven a lot of the 728 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,240 diversity that you see actually in these different biomes. 729 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:34,320 And it's more tropical rainforests, but they're so different in the end. 730 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,920 So being lucky enough to be able to go there and see these different forest types is just 731 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,040 one of the things involved. 732 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:48,400 And surviving and being able to tell you the stories about it afterwards is a bit of a 733 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,400 bonus on top then. 734 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:51,400 Absolutely. 735 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,360 Anthony, thank you very much. 736 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,840 If people want to follow you, find out what you're doing, read your papers, where should 737 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,120 they go online or social media? 738 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:05,320 My website, I have a website where I keep all my papers up to date. 739 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,000 And then I have a Twitter account if people are interested. 740 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:13,720 I'm not the most active Twitter, but I do like to retweet papers of my students mostly 741 00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,000 and people doing interesting things. 742 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,000 So yeah. 743 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,000 Awesome. 744 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,740 I'll put those on with the description of this podcast. 745 00:37:21,740 --> 00:37:25,920 And for now, thanks a lot and I really hope we get you back for South America one day. 746 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:26,920 All right. 747 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:27,920 Sounds good. 748 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:28,920 Thank you. 749 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:29,920 Bye bye. 750 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:52,260 Awesome.