1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:16,840 Today on the Zoologist's Campfire we have Sergej Bogaert. 2 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:22,240 Sergej is a senior advisor for environment and ecology at the Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure 3 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:24,220 and the Environment. 4 00:00:24,220 --> 00:00:29,920 In that capacity he helps to make the Netherlands more livable for many plants and animals, 5 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,440 for instance by defragmenting natural areas to give nature more space. 6 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:41,160 But he is also a proficient herpetologist with about 50 publications and contributing 7 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:49,200 to several books, mostly on European and North African amphibians and reptiles. 8 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,880 Sergej got a masters from Radboud University and has since travelled around Europe and 9 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,320 the Mediterranean, chasing mostly salamanders and newts. 10 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,320 Welcome Sergej. 11 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,320 Welcome, good morning. 12 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:03,320 Good morning. 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:10,040 So, before we get into your fantastic stories, it seems that herpetology is really a lifelong 14 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,160 passion for you. 15 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,920 What is it that you love about herpetology? 16 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:16,800 Yeah, that's funny. 17 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:24,720 I was actually walking in the field last week with somebody, a young guy who asked me the 18 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:26,320 same question. 19 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:27,320 What started it? 20 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:37,640 I was thinking, the first thing I remember is that I found a dead lizard when I was walking 21 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,880 the dog, when I was a kid. 22 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:47,680 It was a Tocavipipara, I know now of course, but it had an orange coloured belly, you know, 23 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:53,200 and all these small scales and I could really look at it and watch it. 24 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,840 I was like, oh, this is nice. 25 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,240 This is like a tiny dragon, you know, that's what it was. 26 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:04,440 Many people have the affection with or like dinosaurs. 27 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:11,440 I was still too young to go into, you know, like the real adult books in the library store. 28 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:16,800 So I had to ask my mother if I could walk with her and she could pick out some books 29 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,920 so she could borrow them and I could look at books on reptiles and amphibians. 30 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:26,640 And that started when I was five or six or something like that. 31 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:35,600 It must have been at that period and it never went away. 32 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,360 What is it that never went away? 33 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,340 I mean, I know Zootocat has these beautiful tiny granular scales. 34 00:02:41,340 --> 00:02:42,780 It looks very refined. 35 00:02:42,780 --> 00:02:46,560 What is it that when you see an animal still today that does it? 36 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,880 I think it's a combination of two things. 37 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:58,400 It's of course the colorful and beautiful structures that most of them have, you know. 38 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:05,760 It's also a bit the secretive way of living that you have to work to see them. 39 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:11,320 You can just walk around and like a bird, you can hear a bird and think, oh, that's 40 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:12,320 the one. 41 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,680 But most of these animals, you have to look and find them at the right time or the right 42 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:23,960 spot or that makes them more mysterious for me. 43 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:30,840 But another factor that's very important I learned is that you can really catch them. 44 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:40,080 You can get close to them or you can watch them from all sides and that makes it more 45 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:45,580 closer than mammals or birds, which you always have to watch from a distance or have difficult 46 00:03:45,580 --> 00:03:47,120 techniques to catch them. 47 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,200 But this you can do yourself. 48 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,600 You can go with a dip net and try to catch a newt. 49 00:03:53,600 --> 00:04:01,240 And as a kid, I've made many, many hours trying to catch a newt before I learned that the 50 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:08,320 trick is to go at night or with a flashlight or the stuff you don't learn when you are 51 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,640 young. 52 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:15,320 What you learn by doing or by meeting other people who tell you that, oh, this is something 53 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,960 you have to do different because this is much easier. 54 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,880 And that's still like, you know, like, vipers. 55 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:27,760 That's a group of animals that, well, I'm 55 years old now. 56 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:33,540 I still have a lot of problems finding vipers, but I'm learning, you know, that's just. 57 00:04:33,540 --> 00:04:36,920 And it's amazing to go with the people who can find them immediately, right? 58 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:37,920 Exactly. 59 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:43,760 It's fascinating to go with a specialist who can tell you, oh, but now you are already 60 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:44,760 too late. 61 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:45,760 Why? 62 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:46,760 Yeah, well, it's too warm. 63 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:47,760 Yeah. 64 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,320 But the sun has just started. 65 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,040 Yeah, but it's too warm already. 66 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:53,400 Okay. 67 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:57,000 So that's really that's what you have to learn. 68 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:02,000 And that's of course with reptiles and it's very interesting that every species has its 69 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:07,760 own niche and time and place. 70 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:14,080 And the overlap is rarely, you know, it's rarely combined. 71 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,840 And well, that's of course what you learn also when you want to go into the field. 72 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:24,920 And what I did last, last decades searching for animals, it's while you try to book, let's 73 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,440 see, April, that should be a right month. 74 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:28,440 Yeah. 75 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:29,440 That week. 76 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,680 And you have to book because you cannot say we go tomorrow. 77 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:33,680 That's a problem. 78 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:34,680 Yeah. 79 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,000 And you go there and that, oh, okay. 80 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:39,000 It's still too cold probably. 81 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,000 What are we going to do now? 82 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:47,280 So yeah, that's, that's, and that's what happens a lot. 83 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:50,480 Of course that you, well, you just have to plan in the head. 84 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,240 Yeah, you have to be lucky. 85 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:54,240 Yeah. 86 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:55,240 Yeah. 87 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,240 Yeah. 88 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,640 I once planned a very poorly for one of the first times I went to Morocco, I poorly planned 89 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:00,640 the trip. 90 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,280 It was too hot, but for some reason the first rain came. 91 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:07,800 We saw more reptiles and amphibians there than any herpetologist had ever seen in that 92 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:08,800 area. 93 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:09,800 Exactly. 94 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:10,800 Yeah. 95 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,320 And that's what's, what's, what's, what makes it nice as well that you can get surprised 96 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:21,640 by having good luck, you know, that somebody else didn't have the right time or whatever. 97 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:26,520 You, you are at the same place where many people have been and everybody says, no, that's 98 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:27,520 horrible spot. 99 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:28,520 It's horrible spot. 100 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,640 But then you go there at the right time and then you find many animals. 101 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,480 Now you feel really lucky. 102 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,560 That's, that's, yeah, yeah, that's. 103 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:37,560 Awesome. 104 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:38,560 Yeah. 105 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:39,560 Yeah. 106 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:40,560 So you've been everywhere. 107 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:46,920 You've been all over Europe and Turkey and around the Mediterranean and yeah, and many 108 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:47,920 adventures. 109 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:48,920 So let's get into one of them. 110 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,400 Where are you taking us first? 111 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,800 Well, I was, I was thinking, well, Turkey was my first love more or less because I did 112 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:03,160 my, my major, my major course for when I was on university, I did in Turkey. 113 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,800 There were no salamanders involved by the way, because they were not, they were not 114 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:08,800 there. 115 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:17,600 I did my PhD study on the apophona of the Gucu Delta near the Tosuju that's west of 116 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,360 Arana about two or a kilometer. 117 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,200 So it's along the coast. 118 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:29,040 There are sea turtles and a lot of birds and, and of course many reptiles and amphibians. 119 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:34,000 And because you spend there five months, you, you, you, you learn a little bit about culture, 120 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:39,520 very little bit about the language, complicated language, at least for me. 121 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:47,280 And that was, that's a country that got fascinated, that I find fascinating because there were 122 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,800 so little loan, you know, it's like, there wasn't in the beginning of the nineties. 123 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:59,160 So there were a lot of species were virtually unknown or just few distribution records. 124 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,120 And then you can think, okay, well, we can go there and try to find new spots or we can 125 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:08,840 try to, so that's what we did in the beginning of the zeros more or less a few times. 126 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:14,520 At the end of the nineties we started with the Decasal Alondra. 127 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,520 And there was a group working on that already. 128 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:21,160 So we could just say, okay, well, we go there as well and we collect new distribution data 129 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:26,480 and you can do, you know, do the publications or whatever, or we can measure animals and 130 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:27,480 stuff like that. 131 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:35,200 So it was at least in those days, but that still is the, a lot of these very simple basic 132 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:36,960 data, like how big are they? 133 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:38,840 How much do they weigh? 134 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:40,200 When is the age of the period? 135 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,080 How much young do they get? 136 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,080 Stuff like that. 137 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:49,840 Basically, collectible data is virtually unknown besides distribution or besides population 138 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,880 dynamics or whatever, because it's even much more complicated. 139 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:59,480 So you guys backed up and decided to go up and say, okay, well, this is nice area and 140 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:00,840 nice period. 141 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:06,320 Just rent a car, go there and well, and then of course you get into all kinds of adventures 142 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:14,160 and troubles and stuff because especially in Turkey, those days, the East of Turkey 143 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:20,120 was very complicated and still is complicated because of the Kurdish conflict with the Turkish 144 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:21,760 government. 145 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,000 So every year it was like, okay, let's see how far we can get East until the military 146 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,000 send us back. 147 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,000 Oh, right. 148 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,000 And sometimes you were lucky and then you got past the post and then in the next post 149 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,920 it was like, but how did you get here? 150 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,000 Yeah, well, we just drove this road and they said we could go there. 151 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,480 Yeah, but it's impossible to go here and you have to have a permission and then you spend 152 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:51,600 a half day on the military discern and then the general tried to explain you that it really, 153 00:09:51,600 --> 00:10:00,120 really dangerous to go there and that they sent you back and all kinds of stuff. 154 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,200 So you had to wait for the general to show up to tell you this. 155 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,760 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 156 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,520 We had it a few times, especially in the beginning of the zeros. 157 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,760 You have to get out of your car and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 158 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:14,800 They stopped me and of course they stopped with that. 159 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:22,680 They give me a passport and give me your driver license and the papers and car and so that's 160 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:23,680 how it started. 161 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:26,120 And of course these military are, you know, they are young guys. 162 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:27,120 They don't know anything. 163 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,600 They just know, okay, this is something weird. 164 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:30,600 Yeah. 165 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:36,320 Foreign guys and oh, they all have cameras, you know, they have all this gear with them. 166 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:37,440 What are they going to do here? 167 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:43,520 So it looks, of course it looks very suspicious and that's what you don't realize when you're 168 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,560 young, you're like, we go there. 169 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:47,560 What can happen? 170 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:48,560 You know, it's Turkey. 171 00:10:48,560 --> 00:10:50,880 It's not a, it's not a, it's not a conflict. 172 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,960 It's not in war or whatever. 173 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:59,400 But it was of course a difficult situation and we even, we even had problems that we 174 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:09,760 were like guarded and they said, okay, well, you can go there, but we will call this hotel 175 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:14,040 and you have to go to that hotel and then we arrived at the hotel. 176 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:20,480 It was people waiting for us and we could not leave the hotel that night. 177 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,920 So we should, we should stay there. 178 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:28,640 And in the morning we were accompanied again by the militaries to drive out of the village. 179 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:29,640 Oh wow. 180 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:35,480 Apparently this village was a difficult situation and yeah, of course you cannot see that and 181 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,720 you don't, you don't know that you cannot collect these data here. 182 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,360 When you go there, you're just like, okay, we drive that route. 183 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:47,480 That seems nice, you know, through the mountains so we can catch all these streams. 184 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:52,120 And then you end up like that, but it's not, it was always friendly, you know, it was not 185 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,680 like they were harassing you or whatever. 186 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:55,680 It's just like, okay. 187 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:57,920 But I imagine it can be a bit impressive. 188 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:02,360 I mean, soldiers with guns and they have to tell you to do stuff. 189 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:03,360 Yeah. 190 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,720 Especially when you come from Europe, it's like, okay, so it is not, not that different 191 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:08,720 from Europe. 192 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,480 I mean, of course it's a different culture, but you know, in general, many people go to 193 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,040 Turkey, but of course we go to Istanbul or go to Antalya. 194 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,520 They don't go to the East. 195 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,280 And most of the times also we flew to Ankara or whatever, because there was a cheap flight 196 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,360 and then you read the car there and they were already asking you where you go. 197 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:30,360 Yeah, we go to the East. 198 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,400 To the East? 199 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,400 Nobody goes to the East. 200 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:34,400 You are a tourist. 201 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:35,400 You have to go to the coast. 202 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:36,400 No, we want to go to the East. 203 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,400 Yeah, but there's nothing in the East. 204 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,640 Yeah, there are nice animals there in the East. 205 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:43,640 Okay. 206 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:44,640 Have you been to the East? 207 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,320 No, no, no, no, no, we don't have. 208 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,000 We never go to the East. 209 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,000 Wow. 210 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Okay. 211 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,000 Yeah. 212 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:55,800 That must have, you know, harmed your confidence already a little bit. 213 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:56,800 Yeah. 214 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:03,440 Well, it's, of course, but you know, like you're young and you think like, wow, we're 215 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:04,440 in this country. 216 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:05,440 It's the same country. 217 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:10,080 We can travel and you can travel a lot. 218 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,320 But well, then the comes a point and they say, well, from this point on, you have to 219 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,360 go back. 220 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:21,160 Because the situation changes every year and that was complicated stuff with it. 221 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:22,160 I see. 222 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,560 And in the beginning, we did it just by ourselves. 223 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:29,640 And then after two, three years, we thought, you know, we should have a Turkish guy with 224 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:35,560 us because it's too complicated to do it like this. 225 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:39,280 But most herpetologists were in the West. 226 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:46,400 So we tried to search for at least a biologist to accompany us in the field work. 227 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,040 And then we ended up with a guy from the Abaker University. 228 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:51,040 Yeah. 229 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,720 He was an ornithologist, but he was like, oh, okay. 230 00:13:54,720 --> 00:14:01,280 I don't know anything about reptiles and amphibious, but I'm really, really, really enjoying field 231 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:02,600 work and I want to learn. 232 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,160 So let's go together. 233 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:06,640 And that helped a lot. 234 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:08,280 That helped a lot. 235 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:16,520 But even he for him, it was for some areas, it was impossible to come because, you know, 236 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:21,160 then the military decides, of course, if an area is safe or not. 237 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:27,360 So then you can be a professor at the university, but I didn't care. 238 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,320 And were you ever able to convince a general to let you to let you through or? 239 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:44,640 Yeah, well, there was one general that was near Bitlis, which is far east, Lake Van. 240 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,380 He was very into football. 241 00:14:48,380 --> 00:14:52,680 We are not, but still, you know, and you know a few names and then he's really happy. 242 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:58,440 And he was doing a course in France and he was just learning a bit of French. 243 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,040 So he wants to, he wants to practice with us. 244 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:04,600 And Frank Bosmans was with us. 245 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,400 That's the guy who I do most of these travel with. 246 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,440 And he's Belgian, so he could speak a little bit better French than I do. 247 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,700 So they were practicing French in one way or another that helped a lot. 248 00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:25,200 And he was like, okay, these guys are not so dangerous. 249 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,000 And that helps, of course. 250 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:28,880 And like, yeah, what are you looking for? 251 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,480 And then we showed the pictures of the animals and he was like, oh, yeah, but we've seen 252 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:33,880 them here on the terrain. 253 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,440 And we were like, of course, like, oh, can we search here? 254 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:41,240 No, no, no, you can't. 255 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,760 Yeah. 256 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,560 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 257 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:53,960 It's always, if you, you know, if you behave friendly and if you don't feel offended, most 258 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,280 of the times you get through. 259 00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:01,880 Yeah, of course, you don't have to be the arrogant Western guy who thinks he has all 260 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:07,120 the wisdom in his pocket because you don't, you know, you're a guest in the country. 261 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:12,220 So that's the only thing you can do is be friendly and try to explain. 262 00:16:12,220 --> 00:16:17,880 And then they are like, okay, yeah, we find it suspicious, but still, okay, you can get 263 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,760 through or you can get cannot get through. 264 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:21,760 Yeah. 265 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,120 And then you were just, you know, scratching that part of the trip, I guess. 266 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:27,240 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 267 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,120 We always, that's also a part of it. 268 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,320 You plan. 269 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:40,320 We didn't plan a lot most of the time, we just thought, okay, at home, we tried to decide 270 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:47,040 a route more or less that you can do within one, two weeks, depending on the time we had. 271 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:52,360 And depending on the installation we had, of course, we tried to combine some stuff. 272 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:53,360 Sorry. 273 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,820 No worries. 274 00:16:55,820 --> 00:17:02,080 And then, yeah, you have to adjust your plans and feel. 275 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:08,360 We really wanted to, in that case, we, we were busy with the regular Strauchy. 276 00:17:08,360 --> 00:17:10,360 Beautiful little sound. 277 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:12,360 Yeah, yeah, it was beautiful. 278 00:17:12,360 --> 00:17:16,080 And it was very little loan or just a few distribution records. 279 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,800 So we were like, okay, but here's one, there's one. 280 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,920 Okay, there should be in between as well, you know, and around the other ones, you can 281 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:30,440 try to make circles and look for other suitable streams. 282 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,880 So we have to be in the breeding season because that's the easiest part and they're in the 283 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:35,880 streams. 284 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,560 And you can, that's a good part, thing as well, of them, you can search them by day 285 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,320 because they are active at day as well. 286 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,320 Not as much at night, but still you can do that. 287 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,280 So I've never seen this, I've seen them alive, but I've never seen them in the wild. 288 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,920 Obviously, I've never been to Turkey. 289 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,240 So they just swim in the stream. 290 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:55,240 So how do you find them? 291 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:56,240 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 292 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,200 Just walk around in the slow moving part. 293 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:04,320 So it's, yeah, it's really incredible because at daytime you don't expect a colorful newt 294 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:13,040 walking around in the stream, acting like, okay, I'm just, but apparently their warning 295 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:19,280 colors are good enough to protect them from predators during the day. 296 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:24,480 So it's, but at night, of course, like with fire salamanders or other amphibious at night, 297 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:25,480 they're much more active. 298 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:31,440 But you can easily find them during the day and that makes searching, of course, a lot 299 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:38,640 easier as well, because then during the day we could just check all these new, these streams 300 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,640 and walk along the streets. 301 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:47,720 And because they are so colorful, you can also ask people, you know, you show the picture 302 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,720 and they cannot mistake it for something else. 303 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,040 They can mistake it for perhaps a fire salamander for that, but that was also okay because we 304 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,320 just know that these two species were very interesting. 305 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:04,920 So it doesn't really depend on if they, if it was to be a fire salamander or it wasn't 306 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:05,920 an oragus. 307 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:06,920 And it was like that. 308 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,760 It was like, ah, they knew the animals and we were like, it's a bit strange. 309 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,000 It doesn't seem exactly a spot for an oragus. 310 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,000 Okay. 311 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,520 And of course it turned out to be a fire salamander spot. 312 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:19,520 Oh, okay. 313 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:20,880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 314 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,800 So people do, yeah, very recognizable species that one. 315 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,800 Yeah, exactly. 316 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,240 And is that your favorite species now or? 317 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,760 Yeah, that's fire salamanders have always been my favorite group of animals through 318 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,480 the years and it has not changed. 319 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:44,920 That's I've done, of course, studies in Morocco with David Dornier on salamander, algae and 320 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:45,920 water Pokemon also. 321 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:52,200 We did a lot of things together there, tried to collect more data on ecology, but also 322 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:58,120 on, of course, on the taxonomy because it's a weird situation there. 323 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:03,560 But yeah, it stays the most interesting group. 324 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:09,640 And what I liked as well, because that's how, of course, as a child, I also kept animals 325 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:10,640 in captivity. 326 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:17,280 The good thing about these animals, you can easily study them in captivity as well. 327 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:24,560 I mean, they don't, you don't have to have very complicated systems to keep them at the 328 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:31,680 right temperature and clean them once a week and then you can easily keep them more or 329 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:32,680 less. 330 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:39,080 They don't breathe like rats, you know, that's not the easy part. 331 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,800 But that's still an interesting thing. 332 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:41,800 You can do that at home. 333 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,120 You know, you can keep them. 334 00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:47,560 You can see how many larvae they get per female. 335 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:53,740 That's data which is very difficult to collect in the wild, but very easy to collect in captivity. 336 00:20:53,740 --> 00:21:00,960 So that combination of studying animals in captivity with the field data, seeing them 337 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:05,760 in the field and collecting data there, that's very interesting for me. 338 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:09,720 So you get a really complete picture if you live with the animals at home as well. 339 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:10,720 Yeah. 340 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:11,720 Yeah. 341 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,120 And of course, many new questions as well, like in any science research that you do. 342 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,840 And then you have to plan your next trip to answer that question. 343 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:19,840 Yeah, exactly. 344 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:20,840 Exactly. 345 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,360 So it keeps you busy and that's good. 346 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:28,760 For me, that's very good because, you know, as you told me, I work for the Ministry of 347 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,320 Infrastructure. 348 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,320 So my normal day job is a lot of paperwork. 349 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:40,800 You know, we do environmental impact assessment and stuff like that, especially on nature 350 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:49,640 and protection laws, like impact on a 2 or 2,000 areas or species. 351 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:55,200 But I don't go into the field, you know, that's what the bureaus, they do the work for that. 352 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,200 Yeah. 353 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,800 Most of the stuff that I do is just paperwork. 354 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:05,840 So for me, going out into the field is, of course, a nice change of work. 355 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,760 And you do a lot of that. 356 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:13,720 Have you ever found yourself in like a dangerous situation or no risk? 357 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,880 I must say not really dangerous. 358 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:24,080 We had, I must say that we went to Syria in 2009. 359 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:30,080 That was also, that was just before the war, we of course, nobody expected to be to get 360 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,080 this country into war. 361 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:41,080 But we planned it with together with Max Parabom and I was part of the postman again. 362 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:43,680 And it was not easy to get into that country. 363 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:52,000 You know, you had to have permission on forehand, you had to have an invitation from the government. 364 00:22:52,000 --> 00:23:00,000 And because of Max's work for the Ruslim society in the Netherlands, he had some connections 365 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,040 with the Dutch embassy representative there. 366 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:09,880 And that started more or less like, okay, can we try to get an invitation to Syria to 367 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:14,280 do some field work there? 368 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,940 And that worked. 369 00:23:16,940 --> 00:23:20,360 And of course, then you also have to have somebody to help you there. 370 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:21,360 Yeah. 371 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:24,000 With you in the field. 372 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:31,680 And through some Jordanese herpetologist, we got into contact with a Syrian herpetologist. 373 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:37,520 But more or less a week before, yeah, I'll go with you, no problem, etc. 374 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,480 But about a week before that we departed, so everything was arranged. 375 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,840 He said, well, I cannot go with you. 376 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,080 And we were like, oh, that's a big problem. 377 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:56,520 Yeah, but I got a replacement and she's very nice and she knows a lot. 378 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:04,200 We were like, a woman going away a week with three Western guys? 379 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,200 Yes. 380 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,560 That could be a problem. 381 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:12,720 I don't think she will, you know, in that culture and in our culture would be, you know, 382 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:18,080 it would be a little bit strange to do that. 383 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:23,600 But it all worked out perfectly. 384 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:28,120 We had to give presentations on the University of Damascus. 385 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:32,120 So we were presenting our research and we were presenting what we wanted to do and why 386 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:39,240 Syria was so interesting and that there was so little known and etc. 387 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,320 She helped us with translating the PowerPoint, etc. 388 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:50,160 And she went with us into the field and it was really, really nice. 389 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,520 She was working on a gamete, but it wasn't, I don't think it was really her topic more 390 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:02,800 or less like, yeah, big lizards, yeah, pathologist, but she found it very interesting and it was 391 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:03,800 a great trip. 392 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,120 We discovered a lot of new localities, of course, because nothing was known. 393 00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:12,040 Yeah, not many people have gone there. 394 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,320 So I was really looking forward to, you know, it was our first trip. 395 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:24,400 Hopefully we can get back very soon and we can get now and then the war started. 396 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,880 So it was very difficult to get in and a lot of problems. 397 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:28,200 You had to do a lot of things. 398 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,800 Once you were there, did you feel like it was a dangerous place? 399 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,200 No, not at all. 400 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,200 Not at all. 401 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,880 No, it was really, people were very friendly. 402 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,880 The only thing that you noticed is that there was like, you know, a secret police everywhere 403 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,080 checking what you were doing. 404 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:52,800 But that's why this woman, our group on Rasti was very important because she could say, 405 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:59,520 okay, but they are under my guidance and, you know, we have the paperwork, etc. 406 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:07,480 So it was, no, it was really, really, it was the first and still with me, the first Islamic 407 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,920 country where I saw that they were building a church. 408 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:16,160 Oh, you know, in many countries you can see that there are churches, still Christian churches 409 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:23,320 or whatever, you know, stuck back somewhere in the corner or there's some, but they were 410 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:28,980 building a new church for Christians alongside the mosque, I must say. 411 00:26:28,980 --> 00:26:35,140 But it was like, okay, this is a complete, of course, you know, it's a dictatorship, 412 00:26:35,140 --> 00:26:39,880 but still that it happens that there is, that they are building something new for Christians 413 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,960 was really surprising to me. 414 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,180 I'm not religious at all. 415 00:26:43,180 --> 00:26:50,160 So I ignore most of these things when I'm in a field or, you know, I don't know, but 416 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,880 it was like, okay, that's interesting. 417 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:53,880 That's yeah. 418 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,880 Yeah. 419 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:55,880 Yeah. 420 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,120 At least they have the freedom to do that. 421 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:00,520 And yeah, that was the point. 422 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:07,440 And yeah, well, I never expected that, well, of course, I never expected that it would 423 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,880 become a country that was so destroyed as it is by now. 424 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:13,880 Yeah. 425 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:14,880 Yeah. 426 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,600 It's still a good contact, by the way, with Rao Roop. 427 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,960 So I still hope one day, you know, when there is more peace, we can go back again. 428 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:28,440 I'm really, I don't think it will be easier, getting easier in that corner. 429 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,160 And was there something particular that you wanted to see there? 430 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,960 Like this animal I have to see? 431 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:33,960 Yeah. 432 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:42,240 Well, it was mainly focused on the old fire sediment or on one hand and on the other hand, 433 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:47,000 because those pieces were, yeah, we knew of course, they are in the south of Turkey and 434 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,040 they are in Lebanon. 435 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,020 So they should be in Turkey. 436 00:27:51,020 --> 00:27:52,520 But where are they? 437 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:58,600 And what populations are they? 438 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,040 What kind of evidence do they use? 439 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:08,720 And it's interesting also from a pre-evolution point of view, because somewhere there is 440 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,880 a splitting going on. 441 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:17,480 We know that in southern Turkey, some animals are genetically more related to animals from 442 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,320 Syria, or at least we thought that should be. 443 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,600 But of course, you have to have DNA to prove it. 444 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:25,600 Yeah. 445 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,600 It's also one of the reasons to go there to try and collect DNA all over the area. 446 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,080 It's still used. 447 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:37,880 I mean, for the almost three thousand years it's used by Ben Wielstein and friends. 448 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:43,800 And the DNA is used in papers by Miguel Ventures and students of it. 449 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,920 So yeah, because of course, that's what I cannot do. 450 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:52,960 I mean, I don't have a lab with me at all, I don't have anything, but when you do this 451 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,720 kind of field work, you can collect easily data for others. 452 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,560 And of course, that's also what we try to do. 453 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,520 And that's the fun part as well for me. 454 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:04,520 I mean, I like it. 455 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:05,520 It totally is. 456 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,520 I spend a lot of time in the lab processing samples from people like you. 457 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:11,520 Exactly. 458 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,040 It's perfectly fine with me. 459 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:14,720 I will collect the DNA. 460 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,920 You can do that part of the... 461 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,280 I was terribly jealous of all the people who got to collect these exotic things. 462 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,280 I just be in the lab analyzing away. 463 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:26,280 Yeah, yeah. 464 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:27,280 Yeah. 465 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,280 No, I agree. 466 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,760 I mean, the fun part is really to be in the field for me at least. 467 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:41,560 Of course, you have to write papers as well, but that's not the fun part for me. 468 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,000 That looks too much like my real work. 469 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,280 Paperwork, yeah. 470 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,120 Awesome. 471 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:56,600 That's also when I finished my university degree, it was like, okay, do I want to become 472 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:01,440 a professional biologist or not? 473 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:12,880 And I remember I was speaking to Josef Schmidle from Munich on a meeting somewhere and he 474 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:19,960 was like, wow, the best thing to do is just to get a good job that pays well and then 475 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,760 you can afford yourself to do all these nice trips. 476 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,440 And then you can do whatever you want. 477 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,960 At least that's what I did. 478 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:37,080 I was like, yeah, that's perhaps not really a bad idea. 479 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,560 On the other hand, I was also not good enough. 480 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,880 I'm not a real hardcore scientist. 481 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,680 I mean, I don't have the brains for it or the attention. 482 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:47,680 I don't know. 483 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,440 I can do a lot of things, but I'm not a real hardcore scientist. 484 00:30:53,440 --> 00:31:00,080 So this way, working together with people who are much more intelligent than I am or 485 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,040 know much more about genetics or much more about other techniques or statistics or whatever, 486 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:11,160 like you talked in the master class with, that helps a lot. 487 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,680 And that's what makes it more interesting because I learn a lot from other people. 488 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,000 They benefit from that I do field work. 489 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,680 So collaborations are all over the place. 490 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:24,680 Yeah. 491 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:25,680 Yeah. 492 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,120 It's the specialist for everything. 493 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,960 And I mean, I'm specialized in biomechanics. 494 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,160 I know nothing about statistics, honestly. 495 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,640 Only what I need to know. 496 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,320 So what would be on your bucket list to see around the world? 497 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:43,320 Yeah. 498 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,800 I started, you know, like, okay, the fire cells, I want to see all the fire cells, all 499 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:53,760 the old salamanders of all the subspecies I want to see at least in the field. 500 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,960 That was more or less like, okay, that's more or less like Horizon. 501 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,520 That is more or less... 502 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,320 Because just to give the background, there's the fire salamander as well. 503 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,200 One species, but there's a lot of forms and colors. 504 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:09,200 Yeah. 505 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,200 Oh, yeah. 506 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,920 Of course, I forget about the public that listens. 507 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:14,920 Not everybody knows this. 508 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,160 Not everybody knows what fire salamander is. 509 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:20,160 There's a few species, of course. 510 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:25,920 We have one species in North Africa, one in Korsakar, one in Europe, then two Alpine species 511 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,420 in Europe, and there is a Middle East species. 512 00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:36,640 So that's distributed in Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iraq and Iran. 513 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,220 And Iraq and Iran, we don't know much about. 514 00:32:39,220 --> 00:32:44,960 So that would be interesting as well to do more field work. 515 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:50,400 But especially on the Iberian Peninsula, variety is huge. 516 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,880 It's still a question why that is, of course, but it's huge. 517 00:32:53,880 --> 00:33:01,120 So you have many subspecies, I think about seven or eight on the Iberian Peninsula. 518 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,120 And what's interesting as well is that all these subspecies mix as well. 519 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:11,520 So you have all these different coloration forms, which also mix and then form another 520 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,320 coloration form, which looks more possibly completely different. 521 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:21,140 But most of the times it's just like a hybrid population. 522 00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:29,240 But when you love colorful black and yellow, orange, reddish kind of animals, then that's 523 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:30,240 the place to be. 524 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,440 So that makes it very interesting. 525 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:38,520 And what I find very interesting as well is that you have these Mediterranean populations, 526 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:44,360 which behave different than, of course, the Middle Europe population, which behave more 527 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:45,360 or less like general animals. 528 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:50,820 They have hibernation period and in spring they produce the larvae. 529 00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:54,840 In this case, they don't use eggs, they produce larvae or young. 530 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:55,840 And then they have summer rest. 531 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,920 And then, you know, but in the Mediterranean, they are more dependent on these sprains because 532 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,400 they are active when it rains. 533 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,200 And then the streams and the ponds develop. 534 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,840 So that's the period when they produce their larvae. 535 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:17,840 Of course, in Morocco, you should expect that it's more or less the same way as in the Middle 536 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,360 East, but it's not. 537 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,400 They behave the same way, but the species look completely different. 538 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:32,320 So in Morocco, the fire salamanders have become very slender, not so huge animals. 539 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:38,960 They produce very few larvae, 30 or something. 540 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:44,280 Whereas in the Middle East, the animals have become very big, most of the times. 541 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,860 They produce large clutches, about 200 larvae. 542 00:34:49,860 --> 00:34:52,200 So it's a complete different system. 543 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:58,440 And that's one thing that really fascinates me, why on those similar circumstances, you 544 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:04,200 have completely different ecological forms, which also look very different because these 545 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,160 Middle East ones, they are very plump and big and, you know, they're huge animals. 546 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,560 They are up to 30 centimeters, which is huge for fire salamanders. 547 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:13,560 Yeah, wow. 548 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,560 I didn't know that. 549 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:15,560 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 550 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:16,560 Cool. 551 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,560 That's really addicting. 552 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,800 Well, that puts them on my bucket list now, I think. 553 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:29,240 Yeah, it's really, well, we were in Israel a few years ago and we were completely wrong 554 00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:30,240 period. 555 00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:34,360 But of course, we just had to book and we're like, okay, well, let's go to this area. 556 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,760 We just try to find one because it's not raining, but perhaps one is so crazy enough to walk 557 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:40,760 around. 558 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,480 And yes, of course, in one. 559 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,280 I mean, you see an animal, you know, like 20 centimeters. 560 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:50,280 That's really crazy. 561 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:51,280 Yeah, yeah. 562 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,120 So, so that was the one that was on the top of your bucket list. 563 00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:00,600 That was one on top of the bucket list because it's so enigmatic, you know, and on the Israeli 564 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:06,160 populations, so many publications have been done, so many studies have been done by the 565 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,160 Ghanian Mendelssohn. 566 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,400 And that's also inspiring because when you read these publications, you're like, that's 567 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:20,680 that looks interesting, that's look like an interesting ecological synonym. 568 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:21,680 How does it work? 569 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:22,680 I want to see. 570 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,680 Yeah. 571 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:24,680 Yeah. 572 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,240 Well, when it comes to different forms in the same, I mean, there's more than one way 573 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:31,880 to skin a cat evolutionarily speaking, right? 574 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,800 So if strategies work. 575 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:35,800 Exactly. 576 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,480 Apparently, that's strikingly works better there because it's million years old. 577 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,480 So it's evolved and it has worked out perfectly in that way. 578 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:46,880 They have tried different things. 579 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,880 And that's also interesting about Morocco, that in the northern part of Morocco, you 580 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:57,360 have salamanders that keep their larvae just long enough into the body that they are already 581 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:58,360 metamorphosed. 582 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:04,040 So they produce like almost tiny salamanders, you know, that sometimes you could see a little 583 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,700 bit of gills, but most of the time these gills are gone already. 584 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:15,960 And apparently, and that's what your Portuguese colleagues have found out, that this evolution 585 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:23,960 from producing larvae to producing completely metamorphosed young can happen very quickly 586 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:29,280 because it happened also on Portuguese coastal islands, which they know were connected to 587 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,760 the mainland just 10,000 years ago. 588 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:40,320 So in 10,000 years, you know, on the human scale, it's a lot, but on the salamander scale, 589 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,480 it's probably not. 590 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,480 A lot of things can happen. 591 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:52,320 And of course, I really find that fascinating that species can adapt so quickly to new circumstances 592 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,800 because there was no water, no fresh water anymore on the islands, so they're completely 593 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:57,800 dry. 594 00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,480 That's the same thing in north of Morocco. 595 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,580 There are no streams. 596 00:38:01,580 --> 00:38:05,400 So these animals have evolved and okay, then we don't have streams anymore. 597 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,920 Well, we will keep our larvae a little bit longer in the body and we'll wait until they 598 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:11,920 go. 599 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:12,920 That's fascinating. 600 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:13,920 Yeah. 601 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:14,920 So there must be some variety in that. 602 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:15,920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 603 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,040 And there must be variety. 604 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:24,280 And probably there are still, you know, there's still animals who are probably earlier or 605 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:25,640 later. 606 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:35,360 And that's also what these Israeli biologists have studied, that there is two kinds of strategy. 607 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,840 You have females that produce the larvae very early in the season. 608 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:46,080 So the first rains, then they produce the larvae and if they're lucky enough, these 609 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:47,920 larvae will survive. 610 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:56,200 If these first rains are not good enough and the ponds dry out again, well, bad luck, you 611 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,200 know? 612 00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,200 But what happens... 613 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:08,440 Sorry, I'm still suffering from a cold. 614 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:09,440 It's winter. 615 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,240 It's the end of the winter. 616 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:17,920 But what happens in Israel is so that if you are an early producer, your larvae are the 617 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:19,240 first ones. 618 00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:26,200 You can live from the smaller larvae that's produced a little few weeks later. 619 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,640 And what happens there is that you get catapalistic larvae. 620 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,160 So larvae that more or less live, they're siblings, you know? 621 00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:40,520 And that also happens in other parts, you know, fire salamander larvae do eat each other 622 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,600 and there's too little food in their habitat. 623 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:50,680 I think also tiger salamanders do something similar. 624 00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,880 It's a phenomenon. 625 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:59,040 This catapalistic predation on siblings that happens all over the world. 626 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:03,360 So yeah, it's fascinating to see. 627 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,120 Apparently it's good food to eat your... 628 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,160 Yeah, it's the perfect food. 629 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:12,200 You know, there are many snakes that eat other snakes because of course, the snake is the 630 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,920 same products that you have to have to food on your body than in another snake. 631 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,000 But the problem is always that you get the same parasites as well. 632 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,200 So that's the disadvantage. 633 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:31,080 But to get back to your specific adventures, do you want to take us to another place or... 634 00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:39,480 Well, we've also, well, as you said, I try to go to all places where there is salamanders 635 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:40,480 in the nude. 636 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,760 So we've also been to Tunisia a few times. 637 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:49,480 And at that time there was also, well, it's beginning of the zeros. 638 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:50,960 It was still very easy to go to Tunisia. 639 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:56,320 Tunisia was like a touristic country and still is, I think, but it's getting more complicated 640 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:01,760 because of all the governmental changes. 641 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,960 But you could easily go there and there is this nude, this script nude, which was also 642 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,720 it was hardly anything known about it. 643 00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:13,080 So we were like, okay, let's try to go there. 644 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:18,440 And for us also still a question mark about if there would be fire salamanders in Tunisia, 645 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:19,440 yes or not. 646 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,560 Oh, that's a big question. 647 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,080 I mean, that's a big question, of course. 648 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:31,400 You know, as well, it's very difficult to prove that a species is not there. 649 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:39,120 So you can only try to combine, you know, specific data and information and to say more 650 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:46,840 or less like, okay, we have a theory that it's not there and we have these reasons. 651 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:51,400 And we visited the area a few times, especially in the wintertime, of course, because that's 652 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,800 the active period. 653 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,400 And with the news, it was like they should be everywhere. 654 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,300 But we couldn't we and Rainer started. 655 00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:00,300 So they were. 656 00:42:00,300 --> 00:42:01,840 Before you go. 657 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:02,920 So how does it go? 658 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,920 So again, you just booked your flight for when you think it's good. 659 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:06,920 Yeah. 660 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:07,920 Yeah. 661 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:08,920 Do you camp in the fields? 662 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,080 Do you so you rent a car and you camp in the field or? 663 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:16,640 No, most of it depended on the period we went. 664 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,280 When we were young, we camped in the field. 665 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,960 When we got a little bit more money, we were really like, OK, hotel. 666 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:29,320 Yeah, I mean, that camp too, I have to say. 667 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:34,640 And now it's more or less, of course, you can just look on the Internet and see if there 668 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,120 are hotel or not. 669 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:37,920 OK, what does it cost? 670 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:38,920 Let's see. 671 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,960 But most of the times, especially now, we we must have a hotel. 672 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:43,960 Right. 673 00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,800 Because it has a disadvantage that if you want to go out into the field, you have to 674 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,280 travel in the evening and you have to travel back. 675 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,920 And that sometimes that's complicated. 676 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,960 But most of the times it works. 677 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:03,840 And there are always in the most dodgy places, there are places you sleep. 678 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:08,560 So if you ask around, and that's the advantage for Tunisia or Morocco, you know, you can 679 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,120 use your French. 680 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,400 So you can you can always find out something. 681 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,920 In Turkey, it was much more complicated. 682 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:24,840 In Turkey, there is a system and that's interesting for teachers to sleep in villages and stuff 683 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,920 like that, because teachers get sent out throughout the country. 684 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,280 OK, that's what this professor from university knew. 685 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,480 He knew that these places were there and he could just pass there and to have a place 686 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:37,480 to sleep. 687 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,400 OK, but still go back to Tunisia. 688 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:48,640 So we went to Tunisia to try A, to see if there was fire salamanders and B, to do something 689 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,640 on these rip newts. 690 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,880 Well, these rip newts were not so complicated in the end. 691 00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,440 It's just like Spanish rip newts, you know, they use more or less every space that you 692 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,440 can imagine. 693 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,120 You just have to find them. 694 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,560 And because we are in the beginning of the breeding season, there are no larvae, there 695 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,920 are no eggs, you have to find the adults. 696 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,800 And if they are not in the water, where can they be? 697 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,720 Probably on the land, probably somewhere here. 698 00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:19,720 But where then? 699 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:21,920 So then you have to turn all kinds of stuff. 700 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,520 And in the end, it turned out there was a ditch. 701 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,200 And in one of these ditches, we found one. 702 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:29,200 Only one. 703 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:36,360 The ditch in an agricultural area was looking horrible, like, you know, not really interesting 704 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:43,440 for amphibians, but they cleaned out the ditch and there were these leaps of clay lying on 705 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:44,440 the edge of the ditch. 706 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,920 So we were like, okay, we can try to turn out these leaps of clay and see if there are 707 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,560 newts in there. 708 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:52,960 And that was the case. 709 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:58,800 So we were turning over and we collected about 20 and we're like, okay, a group of 20 animals, 710 00:44:58,800 --> 00:44:59,800 we can measure them. 711 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,360 Well, we, you know, yeah, yeah. 712 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:08,680 Once you really get surprised by an animal and well, you invent something that you can 713 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,220 try to find it. 714 00:45:10,220 --> 00:45:17,080 So with your, you know, and with your fellow travelers, lots of experience with rib newts, 715 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,000 you didn't expect them to be there at all? 716 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,040 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. 717 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:28,920 It was, it was not, you know, you expect, but for amphibians, you have to have a good 718 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:34,840 breeding habitat and you have to have good land habitat, especially for, for rib newts, 719 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:40,560 you expect at least to be, you know, a little bit of variety or woodland or whatever, you 720 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:41,560 know, that thing. 721 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:42,560 Yeah. 722 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:43,560 Yeah. 723 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:44,560 Yeah. 724 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:45,560 I mean, some nature around, right? 725 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,000 Some nature around, but it was completely barren. 726 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:53,840 Every built your area was for us, for me at least was like, okay, there was also nothing 727 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,880 to hide beside these heaps of clay. 728 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:02,000 So it was logical that if they were there, then, then they should be there, but still, 729 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,640 you know, you wouldn't expect them at all. 730 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,600 So you would have gone completely on your experience. 731 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,120 You would not have even looked, maybe. 732 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,120 Well, exactly. 733 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,760 If we haven't, if we hadn't found the first one in the water, we would have said, okay, 734 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,760 this is completely useless habitat. 735 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:18,760 Yeah. 736 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:19,760 Yeah. 737 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,240 So that, that's where you can go wrong as well. 738 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:26,960 You know, if you, you have to be lucky sometimes to find one individual and that gives you 739 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,440 a hint about, okay, we're right now. 740 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,160 We are on the right spot. 741 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,160 And now. 742 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,040 And, and, and, and the other goal of the, of the trip. 743 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:37,040 Yeah. 744 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,520 The other goal was, and we did two things with that. 745 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,440 We, uh, uh, we knew that they are in Algeria. 746 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:48,560 So you go closest to the border with Algeria and there's a nice oak forest there. 747 00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:49,560 Yeah. 748 00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,960 It was like, why could we, could be possible? 749 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,160 Um, so we, we, we, we searched for the streams. 750 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:57,480 We found buffo there. 751 00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:58,480 So we, okay. 752 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,520 That could be suitable for us. 753 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,520 Well, it must be water. 754 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:05,600 Um, and we went there a few times, never found anything. 755 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:11,440 So no dead animals on the road, no activity at night, no larvae. 756 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:16,800 And then we thought, okay, we can try another thing and just to ask some shepherds. 757 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,420 Because again, you know, it's a black and yellow animal. 758 00:47:19,420 --> 00:47:21,160 You cannot mistake it. 759 00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:22,160 Yeah. 760 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:28,120 So we showed a few shepherds, uh, pictures of animals like, you know, we showed a turtle. 761 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:30,120 We showed a chameleon. 762 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:35,320 We showed, uh, a timon, which is already dodgy because they can mistake it for something 763 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,200 else perhaps, you know, a big lizard, but still it's a big green lizard. 764 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:45,120 So, um, with snakes, we don't do that kind of stuff because they mistake snakes all of, 765 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:46,120 all the time. 766 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,600 But you know, for me, helium for instance, also a species you have seen at once, you 767 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,720 cannot mistake it much with something else. 768 00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:54,600 Um, and he really pointed out, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. 769 00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:55,600 Yeah. 770 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:56,600 Turtles were there. 771 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:57,600 Oh yeah. 772 00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,720 Can we use the new black and yellow salamander? 773 00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:00,720 No. 774 00:48:00,720 --> 00:48:03,880 Ah, it was like, no, no, never seen it. 775 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:09,200 Um, and that's already, of course you don't, um, if they say yes, then it becomes more 776 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:15,160 complicated because sometimes they just want to say yes, please you, you know, resolutely 777 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:23,680 know, um, that is very valuable to me because they feel all the time and, uh, they know, 778 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,360 they know if they are there or not. 779 00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:29,800 And, um, and that was, that was a funny story. 780 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:35,960 Um, when we went to Turkey, uh, we thought, okay, we can use a little bit of Turkish words 781 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,960 and Turkish word for salamander is Samander. 782 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,840 Oh, so we also know Samander, Samander. 783 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:47,800 And they looked like, you're like, what on earth are they talking about? 784 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:53,480 Um, and especially my friend Tony was like, ah, Samander and what and why is, are there 785 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:54,480 here? 786 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:55,480 Are there salamanders? 787 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,360 They were always like, okay. 788 00:48:58,360 --> 00:48:59,880 It's a weird question in any language. 789 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:00,880 Yeah, it's a good question. 790 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:05,000 Of course, because you already, you know, it's cultural. 791 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,800 You already expect them to, to distinguish the salamander for something else. 792 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:15,840 Um, which of course, uh, you know, many Europeans cannot even distinguish salamander from a lizard. 793 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,800 So it's a stupid question. 794 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:24,480 Um, and that's when we find out, of course, that, um, uh, Turkish people, they call a 795 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,000 salamander a rain lizard. 796 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,880 Oh, that's what they say. 797 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:36,760 So if you ask them for a rain lizard, um, then they know what you're talking about. 798 00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,400 Ah, yeah. 799 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:39,880 Yeah. 800 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:40,880 Yeah. 801 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,040 That's, and that's of course, if you, if you know that then you, well, then you have a 802 00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:46,040 conversation. 803 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:51,480 So that's, um, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's, yeah, you have to experience that. 804 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,040 You cannot, you cannot know that. 805 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,400 And that's why it's also important. 806 00:49:56,400 --> 00:50:00,520 And that's what we learned, of course, two years as well to have some, somebody local 807 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:08,480 with you or at least at them, um, I have some local experience and know some words, um, 808 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,680 because that, that, that helps you a lot. 809 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:11,680 So, yeah. 810 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:12,680 Yeah. 811 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:13,680 Yeah. 812 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,240 But I found that there's also some regional variation in the words used. 813 00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:17,240 Yeah. 814 00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:18,240 Also. 815 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:19,240 Yeah. 816 00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:20,240 Yeah. 817 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:22,840 And especially, you know, in, in Turkey, with, with the Kurdish area, it's, of course, it's 818 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,760 different and you talk to real Kurdish people, they, they sometimes don't even speak Turkish. 819 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:33,760 So, um, and also in Morocco, you have the Amazigh, which have a different language. 820 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:38,840 And if you talk to a shepherd, which is not, it's an old, most of the time, he talks his 821 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:45,160 local language and that pictures help, of course, but if you know a word that they use, 822 00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:46,920 that helps a lot. 823 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:47,920 That's yeah. 824 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:48,920 Yeah. 825 00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:49,920 Yeah. 826 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:50,920 Yeah. 827 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:51,920 Awesome. 828 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:53,520 What's the next trip planned? 829 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:57,840 Um, well, uh, the world Congress, okay. 830 00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:58,840 Yeah. 831 00:50:58,840 --> 00:50:59,840 Oh, that's a nice one. 832 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:00,840 Not too bad. 833 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:01,840 Yeah. 834 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:03,840 I've never been to a world Congress, though. 835 00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:08,160 I always go to the European help to watch Congresses because, well, that's where you 836 00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:12,400 meet the people, which way you have people come back with for years, you know, and, and 837 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:17,600 to hear about the new stories and the latest discoveries, um, uh, in real life, which is 838 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:18,600 really, really nice. 839 00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,640 Uh, but I've never been to a world Congress. 840 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,800 Most of the time I thought, wow, it's too much, you know, it's too big. 841 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:31,560 Um, but I thought, well, I should, I should, uh, go, uh, and then this, of course, Borneo 842 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:32,560 is a good idea. 843 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:33,560 It's not too shabby. 844 00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:34,560 Yeah. 845 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:35,560 It's not too shabby. 846 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:38,920 It's, uh, of course it's expensive, but still, you know, yeah. 847 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,640 But sadly, you know, Salomon doesn't use there. 848 00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:44,280 So I just have to look at something else. 849 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:45,280 Yes. 850 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,240 Oh, I'm sure you can entertain yourself there. 851 00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:50,560 Yeah, that was a lot, you know, and that's the, but. 852 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,840 Just going to, and then it's also, of course, it's just holiday. 853 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:55,640 Uh, everything is nice. 854 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:56,640 Everything is new. 855 00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,280 Um, you know, that's, that makes it a lot easier. 856 00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,440 Also there's no scientific goal for us. 857 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,080 It's just enjoying, uh, some of the wildlife there. 858 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:07,080 Yeah. 859 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:08,400 Talking to other, uh, Herp freaks. 860 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:09,400 Yeah. 861 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:10,400 Yeah. 862 00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:14,480 Um, if people want to find out more about you or want to follow you online or something, 863 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:18,480 do you have a, a online presence that we should advertise here? 864 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,480 Oh, that's a good idea. 865 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:21,480 Yeah. 866 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,320 Well, you can find me on Facebook. 867 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:29,720 That's the, that's the easiest part because, uh, I only use my Facebook account more or 868 00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:32,920 less only for her logical stuff. 869 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:40,240 I don't post my cats or dogs or anything else, family business or, um, I don't have much 870 00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:41,960 family business either. 871 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,440 So it's not, it's a very complicated life that I have. 872 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,840 But on Facebook, it's the easiest part. 873 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:53,080 Um, and you can always email me, of course, if you want any publication, I'm on research 874 00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:54,880 gates and research gates. 875 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:55,880 Okay. 876 00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:00,360 Well, yeah, to open an orchid, uh, lead as well. 877 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,160 So probably I will publish their Mike, my lists of stuff. 878 00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:06,160 Yeah. 879 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,600 Well, we'll, we'll put those links in with, uh, with this, uh, podcasts. 880 00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,520 So people find you. 881 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:12,520 That's good. 882 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:13,520 That's good. 883 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:14,520 Yeah. 884 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:15,520 Yeah. 885 00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,000 And of course there, well, there are still you asking me still. 886 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,000 Yeah. 887 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,960 Of course there's still a lot of goals and we'd love to go to Iran or to Iraq or still 888 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,200 there are still countries that I've never visited. 889 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,200 I want to go back to Syria. 890 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,560 Um, Lebanon, Lebanon is also very interesting. 891 00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:35,200 There's a nice guy working there now, you know, hobbyist doing a lot of nice stuff. 892 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,640 Would be interesting to go there with him, do some, some among us. 893 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:40,920 There's still a lot to do. 894 00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:41,920 Good. 895 00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:42,920 That's a good thing. 896 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:43,920 Yeah. 897 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:44,920 That's a good thing. 898 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,040 You, you never get bored like this. 899 00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:53,620 Of course, because it's not my daily job, you know, um, I spread it out and sometimes 900 00:53:53,620 --> 00:53:55,320 projects can take years. 901 00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,120 Um, but that's no problem either. 902 00:53:58,120 --> 00:53:59,120 Yeah. 903 00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:00,120 Good. 904 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,440 Well, we'll be looking forward to those next publications then. 905 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:05,440 You're welcome. 906 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:06,440 Yeah. 907 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:07,440 Thanks. 908 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:08,440 So, okay. 909 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:12,280 Thanks a lot for being on the podcast and, uh, hopefully talk to you again soon. 910 00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:13,280 Yeah, hopefully soon. 911 00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:18,520 Um, you got to the Epitological Congress in Borneo or? 912 00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:19,520 Not this time. 913 00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:20,520 Not this time. 914 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:21,520 I'm afraid not. 915 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:22,520 Yeah. 916 00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,520 Well, it's just, yeah. 917 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,080 Well, we'll see you. 918 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,680 I'll see you for sure somewhere else. 919 00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:30,680 All right. 920 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:31,680 Thank you. 921 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:32,680 Bye bye. 922 00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:33,680 Thank you very much. 923 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:44,700 Good seeing you again and God bless you all.