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Today we get to hear the adventures of Antigoni Kaliontzopoulou.

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She is a highly cited biologist currently at the University of Barcelona who develops

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the tools called phylogenetic comparative methods to map and understand evolution of

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traits across the tree of life.

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And she uses these tools extensively to understand the function and ecological significance of

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the shapes of different types of animals.

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Lizards, lizards, more lizards, but also amphibians, birds, primates, and even scorpions.

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As she is native to and focuses on the Mediterranean area, I imagine that's where most of the stories

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we will hear today play out.

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So welcome Antigone.

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Hi, nice to be here.

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So you develop these state of the art methods which are really computational and way over

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my head.

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But of course you also spend a lot of time in the field.

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So which of those things do you prefer?

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Well, I don't know how to answer that because I really like both.

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So one is more, I guess I take it like as it comes.

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So one is for the winter when you can't really chase lizards in the Mediterranean because

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they are sleeping and they are inactive.

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So I make the best of that to be on my computer and program and do the analytical part.

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And then you really like in the spring and in the beginning of summer when lizards are

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running around, I really like being out there chasing them.

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So yeah, so the spring is already coming.

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So are you going somewhere this year?

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Thursday, after tomorrow.

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So I'm starting in a little while.

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I'll start exploring.

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So I moved to Barcelona relatively recently.

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So I'll start exploring the area around.

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And we have a project here with a colleague.

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So on Thursday, we're going to inspect the populations and set up sampling points and

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see what we're going to do.

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Okay, awesome.

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So that's the first time around Barcelona that you go chasing lizards there?

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Now, since I'm here now because I did my PhD here, so I did some sampling back in the day.

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But since I've been here working in the university, it's one of my first activities nearby.

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So I had been in Girona up the Catalan coast and I'm trying to develop a project there.

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But here very close to the city, it's the first time and it's very interesting because

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it's more humanized places so we can study how lizards interact with humans.

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Yeah, that's very necessary.

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Interesting things and figure out some interesting stuff.

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Humans are everywhere.

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So, but are you going to take these lizards then into the lab or what's going to happen?

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Eventually we are.

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So this is a project where we're going to study the effect that cat populations have

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on them because people feed them a lot and I like cats as well, but they become a problem

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for reptiles and for other animals.

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Absolutely.

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When they're in huge populations, so we're going to study that and we'll take the lizards

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to the lab to try to measure their morphology and see if they have what kind of responses

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they have to the cats and compare the ones that live with cats versus the other ones

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that live without cats and see if we can find differences in their physical condition and

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on how they respond to cats, et cetera.

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Oh, very cool.

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It's been an interesting project.

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So more lizards in the lab.

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Yeah.

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You said you sometimes have a few mishaps in the lab with lizards.

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Yeah, that happens sometimes.

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I mean, it's not supposed to happen.

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That's not what you want to happen, but it does happen sometimes because I mean, these

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are small lizards and luckily because exactly because I like this combination of fieldwork

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and of analysis of statistical analysis, you're very happy when you have lots of lizards in

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your lab, so you want high numbers of lizards so that you can robust inferences and make

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conclusions.

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But then that means that you have to house and take care of lots of animals in the lab.

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And well, I mean, lizards are very good at escaping from us.

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That's how they survive.

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Fast, yeah.

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Very fast and they're very active and they're sneaky sometimes.

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So be careful, right?

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Because otherwise you'll break off their tail.

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Yeah, you have to be careful handling them because they have this mechanism of tail anatomy

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that they release the tail when trying to run from you.

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But they also, they're very good at escaping from little boxes.

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So if you're not careful, especially early on when you plan things and you are handling

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lots of lizards at the same time, if you're not careful, I've had more than one occasion

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where lizards may escape and then you start chasing them around the room and there are

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people trying to find them.

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And then depending on the complexity of the room, they can hide, can go out or they can

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start climbing in weird places.

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You might not find them.

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And normally, so what you would do is that you keep them in the place where they're from

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so you don't take populations from one place to the other.

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Of course.

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Not to mix up populations, but still when they escape, you start looking for them.

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And we've had funny moments with lizards climbing in curtains or finding them up there suddenly,

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like looking to find them and where they are.

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And after you catch them, can you still use them or are they too tired then and you have

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to give them a rest?

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Well, you have to consider, you have to consider, but normally they have some rest period anyway.

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And in the lab, they're like in a five-star hotel normally, so we make sure that the conditions

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are very well and they have plenty of water and normally we don't feed them.

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So it's not to influence the experiments, but they have good heating conditions.

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So hopefully you put them in a box and you leave them there and then you can evaluate

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because you can see if the animal is behaving as normal or not.

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So normally we evaluate depending on the situation and also how many lizards we have.

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If we already have another 50, it's fine to not use one.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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So that many lizards, wow, that would escape 50.

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Yeah, there are many.

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Sometimes there are many lizards in the lab and there might be one species or more.

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So weird things start happening, especially when you're working with students that they're

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not sure this is their handling.

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It can become quite interesting.

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Yeah, that's the trouble.

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Everybody has to make their own mistakes, right?

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So every student has to have a lizard escape at least once.

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That's how you learn.

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And it's also very funny to see them when you're in a lab and it has like those plastic

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floors that have this kind of sticky, well, not sticky, slippery texture.

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The lizards can't really run on them.

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So sometimes you have a little bit escape and it will jump and it starts doing like

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that because it thinks that it will escape and it just moves in the same place because

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they don't have grip to really run.

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Yeah.

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You have to jump and catch them without breaking the tail, et cetera.

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So what's the trick to that?

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How do you catch them without breaking the tail?

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Being very careful.

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I mean, it's a matter of experience.

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It's a matter of trying.

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In many cases, if you catch them by hand, when you start, you tend to break some tails.

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Yeah, it's sad when that happens because...

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Well, they grow back, right?

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Yeah, they grow back and then you try to take care of the animals such that they're in a

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good condition before you release them back to the field because we always take the animals

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back to the field.

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So we do the experiments and then we take them back home so they can tell their experiences

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in the crazy scientist's lab.

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But yeah, I mean, normally in the field we catch them with fishing rods.

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So that's less invasive.

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You can't break a tail with that.

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So it's a very efficient method also because it's easier to handle.

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So we make a loop on a fishing rod and then we kind of fish them.

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Yeah, I had the pleasure of helping you with that.

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When you catch them by hand, you just have to go for the body of the animal and be soft

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enough but firm enough.

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And you have to know.

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Dangerous.

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For the lizards.

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You have plenty of lizard experience.

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So yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, now it's easy.

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Now it has been ages since I last broke a tail.

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But at the beginning when you start learning it happens.

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As you said, you have to make your mistakes in order to learn.

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I mean, it's like you try to do it with the less influence on the lizard with the least

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impact but yeah.

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And so now you have much less lizards running around your lab, I imagine.

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Right now, yes.

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But let's see.

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Hopefully in the near future I can get some funding, which I've asked for and start having

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many lizards again.

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Cool, cool, cool.

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Like that.

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I want to see that.

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I'll drop by at some point and see the lizard lab again.

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I'm very invited to do that.

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And well, I've helped you out with catching lizards at some points in some projects in

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the past.

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Yeah, you remember we had lots of lizards when we were doing these biting experiments.

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Big ones, big ones, but also there I think the cats have had some impact because that

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population now is...

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Yeah, probably.

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I think the lizards are suffering all over the place.

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I mean, there are some cases like the ones of the giant lizards in the Canary Islands,

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which were very...

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I mean, there were entire species extinct because of the cats.

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And again, I like cats.

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I just think that it's nice to have them in a house, sterilized and under control for

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me with them, but not out in the wild.

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And murdering lizards.

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Lizards, birds, bats.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Many different things.

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And in the field, you also have some escapes or...

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Well, in the field you have lots of escapes, but you learn how to get along with that.

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Usually we have, very frequently in my team, we have competitions of who will catch the

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highest number of lizards.

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So when you go to the field, of course it's normal that lizards escape.

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That's what they do.

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So you have to learn also how to move in the field.

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And then it's like, oh, I caught 15 and you only got 12.

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But at the same time, it's nice because people work together.

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So at least when you don't catch lizards, you're not so depressed because other people

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did.

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So it's always good to have a team and go with them.

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Yeah.

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You always have a nice group of people with you.

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Yeah.

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And it's a good challenge.

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It's funny to challenge each other and say, hey, who will catch the most lizards today?

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And it's also nice work because, well, you always have to go in a sunny morning.

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So not so bad.

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Lizard field work for me is the best.

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And especially lizard field work.

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I mean, yeah, I do feel envy sometimes for people that work in the tropics or in tropical

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islands, but I really like the Mediterranean.

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I've had some very nice field experience in the Mediterranean, visiting islands.

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So I've worked a lot with these genus of lizards that is distributed, the wall lizards that

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are distributed around all the Mediterranean.

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And in a big project, we were visiting every single country.

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And then you have, well, every single country in the Mediterranean.

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And then you have species that are endemic to islands.

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In Greece, you have some that are like in one tiny little rock.

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Well, actually, I had a colleague who thought, so this is a very tiny island in halfway between

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the continent and the island of Crete.

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And there is one species that is endemic to that island and it's only there.

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It's a really tiny island.

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It's about, I think, two kilometers across.

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So we could like, we're six people sampling there and we could cross several times around

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the island.

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And when we were visiting, we were planning.

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So that was a big campaign.

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In three weeks, we did like the whole country, we sampled about eight species, I think.

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So it was very, we were jumping from one place to the other.

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And I had everything in my head, of course, because I had planned the campaign and I know

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the species, et cetera.

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And there were colleagues with us that didn't know all the details and they were accompanying

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us and helping out and doing their own thing, but they didn't follow the lizard scheme exactly.

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So one day this colleague of mine was saying, so now we have to drive to the south of the

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Peloponnese and we'll take the boat and we go to this big island and then we go to that

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small island that we have this unique species of lizard that only exists there.

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And it's amazing.

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It was super enthusiastic.

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Yeah.

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It was like, but wait, this, he was looking at the map and he was like, this, this island

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looks really small.

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How are we going to take the car there?

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And I was like, no, we're not taking the car there.

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We're going by boat because it's a tiny rock.

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So like every kind of misunderstanding with these small places, but you get to visit those

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places that they're super unique.

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And that must be amazing.

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I mean, did they're even, is there even a regular boat service?

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No, no, no.

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We went with a colleague from the natural history museum of Crete.

242
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,140
They have a boat.

243
00:13:30,140 --> 00:13:33,920
So they have their own boat because they do field work in islands and they work them in

244
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,640
my undergraduate studies because I did my undergrad there.

245
00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:43,880
So I asked him for help and he went up to the big Island and we met there with the car.

246
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:50,560
We took the car to the big Island and then we went with this private jet boat to the

247
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:54,040
small island because it's not, there is no, no one goes there.

248
00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,640
There are no, no one lives there.

249
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,200
It's only biologists go there.

250
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:58,200
So it's.

251
00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,200
Yeah.

252
00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:00,200
And no cats.

253
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:01,200
So they're, no cats.

254
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,200
No.

255
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,200
There are seagulls though.

256
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,200
There are seagulls.

257
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,200
Seagulls are a pain also when you're sampling small islands.

258
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:07,200
Seagulls are terrible.

259
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:08,200
They attack you.

260
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,200
Why?

261
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,920
Because in those small islands, if they have, especially if you, they have nests and if you

262
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:19,480
tell, like if you coincide with their reproductive period and they have eggs, they're insane.

263
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:20,480
They attack like crazy.

264
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,480
They're like, they're really scary.

265
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:23,480
They're yeah.

266
00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:24,480
They're big.

267
00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:25,480
Yeah.

268
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:26,480
Yeah.

269
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:27,480
They're big and they're a challenge.

270
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:28,480
I mean, I was really scared of them.

271
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,680
It was a bit like, I don't know, Hitchcock movie.

272
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:33,480
I mean, I don't like seagulls.

273
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,760
I mean, I can see them far away, but.

274
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:43,360
You're on a tiny, well, tiny, uninhabited islands being attacked by seagulls, trying

275
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,920
to catch tiny lizards that are super fast.

276
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:46,920
Okay.

277
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:47,920
And it's super fun.

278
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:48,920
It's amazing.

279
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,000
I mean, it's, it's the best.

280
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,000
It's like fieldwork.

281
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,000
Yeah.

282
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,120
I mean, I like programming and method development, but yeah.

283
00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,920
Fieldwork is amazing.

284
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:00,920
It's so much fun.

285
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:01,920
I mean, yeah.

286
00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,160
And, and as I said, with the lizards, you certainly are doing better fieldwork than

287
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,760
the amphibian people have to wait for rain and nights and.

288
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:15,040
Yeah, I think I chose well actually, because at the beginning, like back when I started

289
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,360
working with animals, I really wanted to do something like natural history related and

290
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:20,840
ecology related.

291
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,600
And I went to the natural history museum in Crete, that I heard this colleague came from

292
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,160
that I told you about with the boat.

293
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,560
And I asked them what projects they had.

294
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:33,640
I was an undergrad and they said, oh, we are doing something with bats and then you could

295
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,240
do something with lizards and I was like, bats are super interesting.

296
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:38,920
I mean, they're amazing.

297
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,800
But then again, in the middle of the night, going out, putting nets, try to catch them,

298
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:43,800
et cetera.

299
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:44,800
I was like, yeah, no, I'll take the lizards.

300
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:49,040
I'll take the funny side of life.

301
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,800
So you stuck with them.

302
00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:51,800
Yeah.

303
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:52,800
Yeah.

304
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,040
I'm stuck with, I have no problem being stuck with them.

305
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:55,640
I mean, I really like it.

306
00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:56,960
I think they're really fun.

307
00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:57,960
Yeah.

308
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,840
And ask some very nice questions, lots of diversity.

309
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,680
They do lots of different things and they are in very nice places normally.

310
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:06,680
I mean, yeah.

311
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,240
And you've been all around the Mediterranean.

312
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,560
So you've been to Portugal because that's where you previously worked.

313
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:16,640
And then I imagine Spain now, Greece, obviously.

314
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,640
Where else have you been chasing lizards?

315
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,000
I mean, I've been to many places.

316
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,000
I mean, Italy and the islands of Italy also.

317
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,000
Oh, nice.

318
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,000
Yeah.

319
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,000
Everywhere.

320
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,360
So Sardinia and Corsica are also very interesting.

321
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,240
They have in the Arctic species as well and they have some really funky geckos.

322
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:36,880
We have very funny toe pads and really very funny things.

323
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,400
Morocco, Morocco was very interesting.

324
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,960
Like Morocco, we started going there when I moved to Portugal during my PhD.

325
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:50,080
So like, I'm not sure I want to count, but it was something like 20 years ago, more or

326
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:51,080
less.

327
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:58,000
Yeah, that was super interesting because it was like I landed to the research center where

328
00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,000
we met.

329
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:05,440
And it was really young and super enthusiastic and I finally had the PhD grant to do my own

330
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:11,280
thing and I was super happy about it and super like enthusiastic with the whole experience.

331
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,600
And then there was these three researchers that I really knew about them because they

332
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,320
were very, well, they were quite well known in the field of European and North African

333
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,480
Herpetology and they were doing really nice work together.

334
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,280
At least James, who's already been on the podcast, of course.

335
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,600
One is James, there's Miguel and Ze Carlos.

336
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:32,360
Ze Carlos has also been on the podcast.

337
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:33,920
I still need to ask Miguel.

338
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:34,920
But yeah.

339
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:35,920
Yeah.

340
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,600
So yeah, and these are like the, like a bit, I mean, they're not that old, but they are

341
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,720
scientifically speaking the generation before me.

342
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,560
So Miguel was my supervisor and they were all doing different things and they were collaborating

343
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,280
and doing these trips to Morocco, which were super famous in the institution back then,

344
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,560
because back then the groups were not that big.

345
00:17:55,560 --> 00:18:00,200
So it was like everyone was going together and it was like a dream for me.

346
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,040
I was 21 and they said, oh, do you want to come to Morocco and you can do some something

347
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:05,040
for your thesis.

348
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:09,320
And for me, it was like, whoa, I wouldn't sleep for days before going there.

349
00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,280
And it was incredible to be included in that.

350
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,680
And I was planning what we were going to do.

351
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:19,080
And then of course your enthusiasm goes through the roof and they did, I spent half of their

352
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,200
trip not sleeping because I like, we would go to a place and catch lizards and everyone

353
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,240
would have fun catching lizards for me.

354
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,400
I would go like, okay, here you go.

355
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:33,280
And they would land 50 lizards on my lap and they would have to measure them and take photographs

356
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,880
and take samples and do everything with them or the processing, which takes some hours.

357
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,400
I mean, now I'm more fluent with it, but back then I took longer to do everything, handling

358
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,040
the lizards, not cutting the tails.

359
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,040
Yeah.

360
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,640
And it's a live lizard, right?

361
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,440
You're trying to measure the toe length.

362
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,560
It doesn't like what you're doing with it.

363
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,120
So it's moving and it's resisting.

364
00:18:56,120 --> 00:19:00,640
And yeah, I mean, we were with, in some of those trips, there was another colleague that

365
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:06,840
is more or less my age and he was doing his PhD back then and he was measuring color reflectance.

366
00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,760
So he had this really fancy machine and he would measure the reflectance of UV and different

367
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:17,680
kinds of different wavelengths of light to quantify what the lizards would see.

368
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:18,680
Yeah.

369
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:24,520
We had to take the data for our projects and it would take forever.

370
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:28,160
So we would be up until five o'clock in the morning maybe.

371
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,040
And then the guys were sleeping, everyone else was sleeping and they would wake up at

372
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,040
six o'clock and say, okay, let's go now.

373
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,960
Let's go to the field to catch more lizards and we're completely destroyed.

374
00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,040
I mean, we're like four or five days in a row.

375
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,720
So once I just slept, I was with James in the field measuring animals.

376
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,160
He was taking notes and they literally slept with a lizard.

377
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:56,320
I was sitting there measuring the lizards and then James is like, Antigoni, I think you

378
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,320
should stop that.

379
00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:58,320
I think you need a break.

380
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:04,840
We'll keep the lizards and continue tomorrow because there's like...

381
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,840
That's amazing.

382
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:06,840
21, falling asleep.

383
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,280
Yeah, it was so much fun though.

384
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,960
I mean, I wouldn't for the life of me do that now, keep staying up until five o'clock measuring

385
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:13,960
lizards.

386
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,520
Probably I would if it were necessary.

387
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,720
You can make your students stay up for you now.

388
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,880
Well, no, yeah, but you stay with them and I don't know.

389
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:25,880
Yeah.

390
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,480
No, normally if it is me planning, I just try to plan with more time so that you can

391
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,840
get some sleep and then you continue measuring the lizards.

392
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,400
Yeah.

393
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:40,660
So that was also partly your own enthusiasm and maybe you underestimated how much work

394
00:20:40,660 --> 00:20:42,360
it was that when you were planning this.

395
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:47,080
Yeah, I think I underestimated the work and then those were campaigns that because the

396
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:53,600
funding was not exactly plenty, we would condense and that was super efficient.

397
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,360
So that team was amazing.

398
00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,960
You would consider how much data would get out of those trips.

399
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:03,400
In three weeks, there were three big teams with several students.

400
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:09,160
So it was me and several other students getting data and it was super efficient, but it was

401
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,840
very intensive.

402
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,480
And we do that a lot just to optimize the resources we have because biodiversity unfortunately

403
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,480
does not have lots of money put on it.

404
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:27,720
In many cases, we try to optimize and we make these campaigns super dense and we run on

405
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,760
a very tight schedule or we run on a schedule that is just day and night.

406
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,960
So once with Daniele in Sardinia, we were working with my lizards in the day and with

407
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,600
those geckos I was mentioning before, by night.

408
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,000
So we were sampling 20 hours per day basically.

409
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,360
So we were doing things around the clock.

410
00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:55,960
And I mean, yeah, you can do that for some days, but at some point you are destroyed.

411
00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:00,440
But very effective, as you say, and you can go a long way on a little money.

412
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,120
Yeah, and when you do it for a short time and with a good team, it's fun.

413
00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,520
I mean, it's intensive, but it's fun.

414
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:13,440
You don't do that for months in a row, but you can take it for some time and then it's

415
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:14,440
very productive.

416
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,240
You feel very good.

417
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,440
And the good thing about the Mediterranean is that sometimes over the year in the middle

418
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:25,920
of the day, you cannot work with lizards because they are super active or they just get inactive

419
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,280
because it's so warm.

420
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:33,000
So you can take a break and you're going to find a nice shadow and just relax a bit.

421
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,040
Yeah, thank God.

422
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,040
The lizards take breaks too.

423
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:39,040
Yeah.

424
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:45,320
So you know pretty much all the lizards of the Mediterranean basin around.

425
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,520
You have a favorite?

426
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,520
Wow, look at that one.

427
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,720
The one you saw on the field that you were like, wow, this is amazing to see that one.

428
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,600
Well, I can go for two maybe if you allow me.

429
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,040
Yeah, go for it.

430
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:07,600
One is Algerid, which is super tiny and that was super fun to sample because they're not

431
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:08,800
impressive or anything.

432
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,600
They're just black tiny things, but they're, I mean, they're this big.

433
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:13,600
They're very pretty.

434
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:14,600
I've seen them in Sardinia.

435
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:15,600
They're wonderful.

436
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,760
Yeah, they're wonderful.

437
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:22,400
But then like I was mentioning before that we use those fishing rods to catch lizards.

438
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,480
So that is based on the weight of the lizard and you need the lizard to have some weight

439
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:28,480
at least.

440
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:34,160
Those guys are so weightless and they die.

441
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:39,560
So we developed a new system where you would throw like with the fishing rod, we would

442
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:45,000
throw the animal on the other people's chest and they would work on a team and I would

443
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,480
throw it on the name and they would do like this and catch the lizard without cutting

444
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:50,480
the tail.

445
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,680
I think for most people that sounds like a nightmare getting lizards thrown on you.

446
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:54,680
It was fun.

447
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:55,680
It was so much fun.

448
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,520
And they were, those guys were, I don't know, they were very interesting to sample.

449
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,560
And then the other one from my group, my mind, they are mine.

450
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,240
So we always talk like that biologists, my animals as if we...

451
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:10,940
Yeah, it's your group.

452
00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:16,040
But like from the group that I've studied most that are the world lizards, the Podarsis

453
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,480
genus, Podarsis taurica.

454
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,120
They are green and fluorescent and completely not world lizards.

455
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:30,680
So they are, I think the only exception from the genus that they, I mean, they run in the

456
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,200
grass in the middle of the grass.

457
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,000
They look like skinks or something.

458
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:35,000
I don't know.

459
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,000
Really?

460
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000
They are pretty pretty.

461
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,880
They are super green, intense green, but they are Podarsis.

462
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,000
They are like, so they are a funny combination.

463
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:46,000
I don't know.

464
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,000
Huh.

465
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,000
I've never seen those.

466
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,080
I mean, I've seen the Fitzsingeri, but I know.

467
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,160
But then again, I mean, lizards, lizards are amazing.

468
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,640
You could talk about so many different lizards.

469
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:57,640
I don't know.

470
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:58,640
Oh yeah.

471
00:24:58,640 --> 00:24:59,640
No, no, no.

472
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:00,640
You can talk to me about lizards.

473
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,640
And the ones we have there around the corner in Sibiu in Portugal.

474
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,880
I mean, yeah.

475
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,760
And the biggest lizard of Europe, the Oscillated Lizard.

476
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:11,760
Yes.

477
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:12,760
Very nice one too.

478
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:13,760
Yeah.

479
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,240
It was fun catching those with you.

480
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:16,240
That was fun.

481
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,240
They are challenging.

482
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:24,120
They are like they have big nails.

483
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:25,120
And a strong bite.

484
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:30,400
And because they are so big, their flight distance is also very, very long.

485
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,720
So if you approach even at sometimes 10 meters, they already run away.

486
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:35,720
Yeah.

487
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,840
You have to be very, you have to learn how to move in the field when you're catching

488
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:39,840
lizards.

489
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:40,840
It's challenging.

490
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:41,840
It's interesting.

491
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:42,840
It's a nice sport.

492
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:48,600
And the other strange animals that you've seen while out and about that you didn't expect.

493
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,640
I mean, sometimes there are some animals that you're not looking for, but they are there.

494
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:53,640
Wow.

495
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,440
I don't know.

496
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,720
Because normally I've thought about this the other way around.

497
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:03,080
Like when you have a search image for lizards, for example, you don't see, I don't know,

498
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,080
vipers.

499
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,920
Like one of my colleagues that I've worked quite a bit with lately, Fernando, he works

500
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:10,960
with vipers and they are in the same places.

501
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,360
We sample them in the same places, but you go to the field for vipers, you don't see

502
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:15,360
lizards.

503
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:16,360
You go for lizards, you don't see vipers.

504
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:17,360
This is insane.

505
00:26:17,360 --> 00:26:25,640
So I had to get like, I only was already quite experienced in herpetology and in field studies

506
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,000
with reptiles, but I had to get trained again to see the vipers.

507
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,000
Oh, wow.

508
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:32,000
Yeah, that's funny.

509
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,000
There are two words that you use.

510
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,000
Yeah.

511
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,000
And then I don't know the geckos.

512
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:38,000
I mean, the geckos are amazing.

513
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,520
They are really like them because we get in the Mediterranean, we're used to seeing the

514
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:47,760
ones that are in tolan geckos that go to the houses a lot, actilous geckos that go in other

515
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:48,760
places.

516
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,040
But then you have species, those that were left as I was talking about that are endemic

517
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,440
to Porsichan sardinia and the leaf finger geckos.

518
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:57,440
Yeah.

519
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:58,440
Yeah.

520
00:26:58,440 --> 00:26:59,440
Yeah.

521
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:00,440
Amazing.

522
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,720
They're really, really interesting and they have this very thick tail and they're chubby

523
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,560
and they do completely different.

524
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,240
They have a completely different way of behaving and you have to figure it out when you go

525
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,440
to the field for the first time and you haven't, for the first time, I mean, to sample a specific

526
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:17,440
animal.

527
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,360
In some cases you have to learn all over again and follow them until you figure out how they

528
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:23,680
behave and what type.

529
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:28,560
So these ones, for example, we thought they're geckos that will be out at night, but then

530
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,320
until it wasn't completely dark.

531
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,040
So we normally go to the field in April, May, beginning of June because of the weather

532
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,160
conditions are optimal, but in May you already have quite a big duration of the day.

533
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:46,880
So it had to be completely dark before they started getting active and we had to figure

534
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:47,880
that out.

535
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,760
So we had to wait and then when they are, they aren't.

536
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:51,760
Why aren't they?

537
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:53,600
What is happening?

538
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,000
And then we figured out that, okay, have a break, go have a nice pizza.

539
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,880
You are in Sardinia, have a nice dinner.

540
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,680
You will be up until five o'clock in the morning, so eat something.

541
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,160
And then you start sampling.

542
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,600
That's more like sampling scorpions.

543
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,280
They don't come out until several hours after sundown.

544
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,760
Everything has to be black.

545
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,320
That's interesting because the Tarantola geckos that you mentioned, they can be active during

546
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:19,320
the day in the winter.

547
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,320
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

548
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:21,320
And the Mivactilus as well.

549
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:22,320
I mean, they can, yeah.

550
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,360
You cannot task those two at dusk.

551
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:28,600
They're active already.

552
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,000
Well for me seeing the elliptus when I was in Sardinia was also because I've only seen

553
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,760
them in books, you know, drawings and maybe one or two photographs.

554
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,120
And then to see them in real life is always a thrill, right?

555
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,000
Yeah, they're so much fun.

556
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,400
And in Morocco you have the very nice day geckos, the equidinthulcias.

557
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:48,840
Equidinthulcias, yeah.

558
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,240
Yeah, and the tiny little ones, the Trachyblepharus.

559
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,200
Really small species in, no.

560
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,200
Tarachyblepharus?

561
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,200
No, that's...

562
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:00,200
Saurodactylus.

563
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,200
Saurodactylus, thank you.

564
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,200
Yes.

565
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,720
I was mixing it up with the species of the Quedenfeldtia

566
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,200
So yeah, yeah, those are really fun.

567
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,400
I mean, they're super colored, super...

568
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:12,400
Yeah, they...

569
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:18,040
Those ones are super tricky for not breaking the tail when you catch them.

570
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,600
That was super drama.

571
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:25,480
Yeah, that was like for me, it was super difficult because it feels like they're so small and

572
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:26,480
they're like fluffy.

573
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,480
I don't know, they're like, they have a different texture.

574
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,480
They have a different texture, yeah.

575
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,880
And their tails break off very easily.

576
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,800
I mean, that was a bit, yeah.

577
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,880
I mean, I felt very invasive sampling those.

578
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,880
I mean, at the end we take a very small piece of tail for genetic studies, but that's different

579
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,700
because you cut the really...

580
00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:50,600
You minimize as much as possible and you just cut the tip of the tail.

581
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,880
When it breaks off, because they break it, they break quite a big piece and it's...

582
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:55,880
Yeah.

583
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,600
I mean, it grows back, but it's still a drain on the animal kind of.

584
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,800
Yeah, you don't want to do that.

585
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,000
And then you bring everything to the lab and you do genetics and then you build your trees

586
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,800
and see how they evolve, right?

587
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:09,800
I don't.

588
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:10,800
People do.

589
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:11,800
Yeah, people do.

590
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:12,800
Your students do.

591
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:13,800
I use the phylogenies.

592
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:14,800
I mean, phylogenies are fun to have.

593
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,160
I don't like the lab work that much.

594
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,560
I mean, I like the analytical part and the field work are my favorites.

595
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,600
The lab, I mean, I like the lab experience I do, which are normally about quantifying

596
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,920
behavior or functional performance, seeing how the animals run, what kind of pictures

597
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,240
they like, this kind of thing.

598
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,560
But these are short experiments that are with the animals.

599
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,600
The genetics lab, I don't like that.

600
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:41,600
Yeah.

601
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:47,160
I'd like if there are other people that do so we can work together and it's on its own.

602
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,160
So we...

603
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:49,160
Yeah.

604
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,640
I mean, I think everybody likes complicated statistics, me included.

605
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:59,520
So we have to be strong in something and then we work together and make good teams.

606
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,160
So that's exactly what it's all about.

607
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:08,800
So if you got to pick a lizard to see still, what would be on the top of the list?

608
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:09,800
Oh, there are so many.

609
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:10,800
Come on.

610
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:11,800
There are so many.

611
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:12,800
I have to go on.

612
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:13,800
I really like to see Takydromus.

613
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,800
So I'm a Lacertid freak.

614
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:15,800
Takydromus.

615
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:16,800
Okay.

616
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:22,880
I'm a lacertid freak and I like this family a lot and they're like, well, in all of the

617
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,440
Palearctic and Africa, et cetera.

618
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:29,400
So the takydromus, I would really like to see those ones because they must be really

619
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,400
funky lacertids.

620
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:36,560
They're very different from the rest and they have those really long tails and they live

621
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,880
in those grassy environments.

622
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,040
Well, some of them do.

623
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,000
I mean, they're very diverse genus, but those ones I would like to see.

624
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,000
Yeah.

625
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:45,000
Yeah.

626
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,000
Oh, I'm afraid to say I've seen them.

627
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:47,000
Yeah.

628
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,000
I don't want to know that.

629
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,000
You are far more than me.

630
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:50,000
I mean, I don't want to get into that conversation.

631
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,000
No, no, no, no.

632
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,000
They're lovely.

633
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:53,000
Yeah.

634
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,000
So of course, laserdeds.

635
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,000
You want to stick to the laserdeds.

636
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,000
I understand.

637
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,000
I like geckos a lot.

638
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,000
Geckos.

639
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:07,000
If I had to choose another family or if I had any time to work with, I really like geckos.

640
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,200
Geckos, I think, but also they are so emblematic and they are in the whole planet.

641
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,840
So there are many, many people working with them.

642
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,560
With laserdeds, there are less.

643
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,520
So you get to do things.

644
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,360
It's mostly Europe and a bit of North Africa.

645
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:22,360
Yeah.

646
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,120
A few exceptions here and there.

647
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:26,560
Awesome.

648
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:33,440
So if people want to know more about your research and what you're doing, where should we send

649
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:34,440
them?

650
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:42,480
Well, so, well, I mean, there is the Phenotypic Evolution Group webpage that you're on and

651
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,600
that would be a good place to start.

652
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:51,240
But they search my very complicated name if you want to write it down, my share name.

653
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,080
I'll make a link to all these things.

654
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,080
Yes.

655
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,080
Okay.

656
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,880
So yeah, in the University of Barcelona, I have a personal webpage where you can see

657
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,520
pictures of those very isolated Greek islands I was talking about.

658
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:03,520
Oh, great.

659
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:04,520
Yeah.

660
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:05,520
Yeah.

661
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:06,520
Yeah.

662
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:07,520
Always good to see.

663
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:08,520
Oh, yeah.

664
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,520
Awesome.

665
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:16,880
And people can look you up and see all the funky stuff you do because it is really fascinating.

666
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,080
And Antigone is at the top of her game and doing awesome stuff.

667
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:27,160
So I recommend following her anywhere you can.

668
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:28,160
Thanks a lot.

669
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,160
Thank you for the invitation.

670
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,160
This was so much fun to talk to you.

671
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:33,160
Yeah, likewise.

672
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,840
It's inspiring to people.

673
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,400
People can see this and get inspired to go out and study lizards or any other animal

674
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,400
for that respect.

675
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,200
I think it could be.

676
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,200
And they should call you.

677
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,680
Have more of us around.

678
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:46,680
Yes, indeed.

679
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,080
Well, I'll try to find more of us to interview.

680
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:56,600
In the meantime, Antigone, thank you very much and talk to you soon.

681
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:57,600
Yeah.

682
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:58,600
Thank you.

683
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:07,800
Okay.