1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:18,080 Welcome to the Zoologist's Campfire, the podcast where animal professionals share their best, 2 00:00:18,080 --> 00:00:22,000 funniest and most epic stories. 3 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,760 And so far, we've had a variety of animal professionals on the podcast, but today we 4 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:34,960 add a new animal profession to that lineup, an Animal Transport Pro in the person of Raymond 5 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:41,760 Tilburg. Raymond has a Masters in Animal Science from Wageningen University, also my university, 6 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:48,160 and after working in the meat industry, among others for the Dutch Ministry of Agriculture, 7 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:55,440 he started working at the Royal Dutch Airlines in animal cargo. He is now responsible for the 8 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:02,480 handling of all animals in the KLM network. He is also a board member of the Animal Transport 9 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:09,040 Association and the International Air Transport Association Board that deals with live animals. 10 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,600 So in these capacities, he's involved in setting standards for animal transport worldwide. 11 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:21,840 Raymond, welcome. Thank you, Arie. Good to see you. 12 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:29,200 Yeah, yeah, good to see you too. Hey, live animal air transport manager is, 13 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:34,720 I think, a pretty rare job description, right? How many jobs like that are in the world? Does 14 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,200 every airport have one? How does that work? I used to be the only one within KLM. 15 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:46,800 And to be honest, five years ago, I changed position. And I'm no longer responsible for the 16 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:54,080 handling of all live animals, but for the handling of all freight at Schiphol. But I'm still involved 17 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,600 with the Animal Transportation Association and the IATA Live Animal Parishable Board. 18 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:06,880 Right. So I'm still, I think, till my neck into the transporting of live animals. 19 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:16,400 Yeah, I know that. Awesome. And you transported a lot of weird animals. And I don't think people 20 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,440 realize how much transport there is of animals around the world, right? 21 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:27,520 That's a, I think on every airplane, every wide body airplane, there are animals loaded. 22 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:35,680 Really? Yes. And not only in the cabin, but mainly in the cargo holds. Right. And let's say when you 23 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:45,920 travel and you collect your suitcase, it feels a little bit cold. Right. That's because the air, 24 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:54,240 the most aircraft have four holds under the seats. Two holds are ventilated and temperature 25 00:02:54,240 --> 00:03:00,160 controlled. Right. And two or three holds are not temperature controlled and not ventilated. 26 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:08,960 The non-ventilated holds are used for your luggage. Yeah. And mail. And the ventilated holds 27 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:17,280 are used for all products and all kinds of animals. Products that need ventilation and temperature 28 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:24,320 control. Right. Can be pharmaceuticals, ventilation, temperature control, animals, 29 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:33,440 and all other kinds of cargo that need some kind of temperature control or ventilation. 30 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:39,440 So you say pretty much every plane has some animals on it. Is that all cats and dogs or? 31 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:45,040 No. Well, a lot of people think it's cats and dogs. Most of the time, 32 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:53,200 what is being transported are, can be live, let's say for example, live lobsters, live food. 33 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:59,920 Oh, yeah, sure. But a lot of times it's, especially when you fly into Africa and Asia, 34 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:08,480 it's day old chicks and insects, beneficial insects. Right. So day old chicks. So little 35 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:16,640 chickens, why don't they have them in Asia and Africa or? They have some in Asia and Africa, but 36 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:24,800 they're all offspring of animals that are produced in, let's say the modern world, in 37 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:34,880 Europe or the United States and some in Brazil. Okay. And also nowadays in New Zealand. And what 38 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:43,520 the airlines mostly transports are the grandparents and parents stock. Okay. Yeah, I'll have to 39 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,400 explain that one. The grandparents of the animals that you eat or the parents of the animals that 40 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:52,960 you eat. Right. So these are not for consumption. They're actually for consumption. 41 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,520 These are not for consumption. They're actually for breeding. 42 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:03,200 Most of the breeding, what is being transported into Africa is mainly for production 43 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,960 and into Asia and all the other countries, it's mainly for reproduction. 44 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:16,160 Okay. Okay. So you always ship two or four lines, male lines and female lines. 45 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,040 And those are shipped separately? 46 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:26,720 They are shipped separately in cardboard boxes or in plastic containers. We have males and females 47 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:34,960 separate, but they are on the same pellet or in the same shipment. Sure. Sure. And we always make 48 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:42,080 sure that it's most times 10% males and 90% females. And by coincidence, the males are a 49 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:49,680 little bit weaker than females. So the males are always put on top of the females. Right. 50 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:58,080 We have to have better temperature and better ventilation. Right. And so these cargo holds 51 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,720 are at the same temperature and ventilation as say the cabin that we're used to sitting in when 52 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:08,880 we're flying. Sometimes a little bit less when we ship they're all chicks. It's most of the time 53 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:15,200 the inlet temperature is 18 degrees Celsius. Okay. So we know inside the boxes is 27. 54 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,040 Ooh, that's pretty warm. Yeah. Yeah. But that's a good temperature for the old chicks. 55 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,600 No, no, they have to sit under their mom usually, right? So they have to be a little bit warm, 56 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:30,560 I imagine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And 27 is a good temperature. And a Dale chick is a Dale chick 57 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,520 for three days. So we have, let's say three days to... 58 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:40,800 Flexible definition. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 59 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:49,520 They live on the Yolk for 72 hours. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. In good conditions. But the humidity 60 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:57,440 in the cargo holds is about 12 to 15%. Oh, that's quite dry. Yeah. But it's the same as in 61 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:04,640 the cabin. If you ever take a newspaper, bring it with you, you start reading it, you put it away 62 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:11,040 and five hours later you take it again, it's crispy. Right. Everything dries up. That's also 63 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:17,600 the reason why you have to drink a lot when you're flying. And that doesn't bother these chicks or? 64 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,480 It bothers the chicks a little bit. That's why most of the chicks are also given some kinds of, 65 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:31,600 we call it solidified water, what they can pick on during flight. Okay. So they have water on their 66 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,480 flight and they have still a belly full of Yolk. So they are in the perfect condition for flying. 67 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:42,720 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Better than us, probably. I think it's through a sparse. 68 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:51,840 You can pick your neighbor. Awesome. And so, you said it's mostly 69 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:57,760 Dale chicks that fly across the world all the time? It's a lot of Dale chicks and a lot of 70 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:06,720 dogs and cats and lots of insects. Yeah. Insects. Yeah. Can you tell me more about that? 71 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:13,200 What kind of insects are we thinking here? Bumblebees and beneficial insects. 72 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:20,320 Bumblebees and those beneficial insects are used in greenhouses or in open fields. Right. 73 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:27,680 Against plagues. Yeah. So sort of biological control and biological pollination. 74 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,560 Biological pollination is done by bumblebees. Yeah. 75 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,240 And there's a big reason why they use bumblebees. Why is that? 76 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:47,760 Ah, when you use, let's say the bees in a greenhouse and the greenhouse is open 77 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,800 for ventilation, they will all leave. Oh. Look for a better product to 78 00:08:54,000 --> 00:09:00,000 breed. Bumblebees are not straying animals. They just stay in their own small environment. 79 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,920 Right. Okay. So they will not stray. So when you use, let's say, 80 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:11,120 say 100,000 bumblebees after three weeks, you still have 100,000 or even more reproduce 81 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:17,680 and bees, you will lose them. Okay. That's why I use bumblebees. 82 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:23,120 And the people don't use the local bumblebees, but they have to ship them around the world? 83 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:31,280 It's mostly the European bumblebees, bumblestresses, I think it's called. And 84 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:39,200 they told me that when they ship bumblebees to the United States, it's one that originated from 85 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,120 the United States. Oh, okay. It was reproduced in Europe. 86 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,400 So in Europe, they're really good at growing bumblebees apparently. 87 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,080 Especially hungry. Oh. 88 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,440 And there's a big company named Coppert. Yeah, I know it. 89 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:01,520 And I think Coppert and Beopest, they are the world leaders of beneficial insects. 90 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:07,200 Wow. So Hungary and the Netherlands are leading the world in biological pollination. 91 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,840 And Belgium is number two or three. Okay. 92 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:18,080 Oh, that's cool. So all the bumblebees fly through your hands pretty much because you're in Amsterdam? 93 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:21,200 A lot of them do, yes. 94 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:27,760 Yeah. So if people see a bumblebee somewhere in the greenhouse, they may have gone through your hands 95 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:34,000 at some point. Might be. Or I've seen them, or at least maybe I've arranged a flight, that's it. 96 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,320 But right. You book their tickets. Yeah. 97 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:42,640 And what we also transport a lot comes to mind are meal words. 98 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:45,920 Oh, right. Yeah. 99 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:49,920 For food? For food, yes. 100 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:55,600 Yes. Now for food, for animal food. And as bait. 101 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,240 Right. We also transfer a lot of earthworms. 102 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,440 Earthworms? Also for bait. 103 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,920 For bait. Oh, you think people have earthworms everywhere, but apparently... 104 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,200 They breed some good earthworms in Canada. Oh. 105 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,840 And in the Netherlands. And there's huge demand of them. 106 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:25,840 Yeah. Yeah. Who knew? So if you hook your line in some country... 107 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,000 Alabama? Yeah. You may be hooking a Canadian or a Dutch worm. 108 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,720 Yep. Dutch nightcrawler. 109 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,680 Yeah. That's amazing. To think about how many animals are flying across the world every day. 110 00:11:39,680 --> 00:11:41,360 Yeah. Cool. But... 111 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,520 Now we also use... Yeah. Sorry, go on. 112 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:49,840 We also ship a lot of horses. Horses? 12,000 a year. We still had the combi aircraft. 113 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:58,000 Meaning that we had a bowing serum for servants. Half of the bowing was for passengers and the 114 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:04,720 other half, we had seven parallel positions. So seven positions for a horse stall. 115 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:11,680 Oh. So we could ship 20 horses on the same flight as 286 people. 116 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:16,960 Wow. So the horse tickets are a lot more expensive than the human tickets I imagine. 117 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,600 Yes. Yeah. They take a lot more space. 118 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,080 They take a lot more space. Yeah. 119 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,000 So these are very special horses. Race horses or production? 120 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,520 Everything but slaughter horses. Okay. Okay. 121 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:42,880 It can be race horses, it can be horses for trade. A lot of horses go... In spring they go to the 122 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:48,000 United States to be sold. If they're not sold, they come back in autumn. 123 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,240 To be sold here? Or to be trained. Or to be sold here. 124 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,200 Yeah. Yeah. Huh. That's interesting. 125 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,120 So they also move seasonally across the world. Yeah. And what we... 126 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,560 Yeah. There's a lot around the world, the other 127 00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:09,600 racing horses. Mm-hmm. From the UK and from Europe into Hong Kong. 128 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,560 Just to do two or three rounds and then they fly back. 129 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:18,000 Really? Yeah. 130 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:26,000 Huh. Very expensive hobby, I guess. I hope it's your hobby because at the end 131 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,600 you will lose money, I guess. Wow. So they're flown to each race and 132 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,480 then they have to run a circle and then they're flown back. 133 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:41,360 Yeah. And when you fly them in and you get them back within 12 days, they told me they don't have 134 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,760 any jet lag. Oh. Okay. 135 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,520 Because jet lag for horse kicks in later. Right. 136 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,880 Well, you have to show in time bracket that they don't have a jet lag and they just can 137 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,280 perform whatever they do and then you fly them back. 138 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,280 Oh, that's ideal. You don't want a jet lagged horse at the start of a race. 139 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,800 That's why you have to be there two weeks in advance or just in a time frame. 140 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,800 Right. So that's all planned very carefully. Yeah. 141 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,840 And then they come to you. When I think about animal transport, 142 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:19,520 you think mostly dogs and cats, of course. That's also pretty much on every flight, 143 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,520 I imagine, right? And shipping dogs and cats is not 144 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:28,640 difficult. You have to handle the people behind the dogs and cats, the owners. 145 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:34,720 They are more difficult. Dogs are easy travelers. 146 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,840 Okay. When a dog is used to its kennel, 147 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,560 it just lays down and just let it happen. Right. 148 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:50,080 Cats are crazy. We all know that. 149 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:59,040 Yes. All the handling stations that handle cats and dogs, when they have a biting incident, 150 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:01,520 it's always a cat and never a dog. Okay. 151 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:09,120 Because cats don't like to travel. And then it happens that a handler 152 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,720 accidentally puts their finger inside the cage and gets bitten. 153 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:19,360 Yes. That can be. Or what we always did in the animal hotel and lots of other animal 154 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:26,720 tales worldwide from other airlines, other origin destination, when at transit time, 155 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,160 it's more than six hours, they take the cats and the dogs out of the crate. 156 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,360 Oh, good. The cats get their own litter box. 157 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,560 Dogs are walked outside or inside. At least they get some exercise. 158 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,840 Right. And then two hours before departure, 159 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:47,200 they are back in their own crate and for the next stretch. And at that time, 160 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,120 it happens that a cat doesn't want to leave its kennel or whatever. 161 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,880 And dogs, they just follow you. Yeah. 162 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:04,000 They are fine with it. But then you always have the owner who thinks that a dog needs this, 163 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:10,480 a dog needs that. No. What a dog needs is just a proper place to lay down, some food and some water. 164 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,760 And when it's in transit, some attention from the keepers and that's it. 165 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,760 Right. Right. Right. And you give them that. Yeah. 166 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:26,800 Yeah. And lots of owners think that they need some kind of sedation for a bed of plights. 167 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,400 Never sedate your animals. Okay. 168 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,520 Your dogs and cats, never sedate them. 169 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,160 Because otherwise you can't walk them, I imagine. 170 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:44,560 Yeah. That's one. But the other one is the second reason not to sedate your dog or cat 171 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:56,640 is that there's less oxygen at 30,000 feet. And all the medication gives them some kinds of 172 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:02,160 depression. They start breathing less. Ah, right. Yeah. 173 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:10,880 So there also is less oxygen in their system. And that can also cause a lot of trouble in flight. 174 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,560 Right. And especially recusophallic dogs and cats, 175 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,400 you have the problem that they might suffocate and die. 176 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,000 Really? And that's the reason why lots of airlines 177 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,760 have an embargo on shipping those kinds of dogs and cats. 178 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,360 Really? Just because they have a short face? Yeah. 179 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:32,640 So when you're in, let's say the United States and you have a French bully, 180 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:39,600 and you have to fly to, let's say South Korea, it's almost impossible to get there. 181 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:47,440 Because all the airlines that fly between the US and South Korea via Europe or whatever, 182 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,240 have an embargo on recusophallic dogs and cats. Really? And that's the reason why, 183 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,960 because they cannot get air when they're high in the sky. 184 00:17:54,960 --> 00:18:00,640 Yeah. And it's always bad publicity when a dog or cat dies. 185 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:07,040 Obviously. And airlines, they are allergic to bad publicity. 186 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:17,760 And for them, it's just a dog. And also, not just a dog, the money they make with a dog 187 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,280 compared to the bad publicity they get when a dog dies. 188 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:27,840 And it's easier for them to say, we stop. Nevermind. Yeah. No more dogs. 189 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:30,400 Yeah. No more dogs. No more recusophallic dogs. 190 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,960 And did you do a lot of that, like walking dogs or taking cats out of there? 191 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:41,360 Yeah. All the cats were taken out of the kennel. All the dogs were walked outside. 192 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,600 It was a product. It's still a product. Okay. 193 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,200 So we still take care of all the dogs and cats in transit. 194 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:55,680 Oh. And do people put weird things in with their dog sometimes in the kennel? 195 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:03,120 No. It's good to put something from yourself in the kennel. What you have to do, 196 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,160 you have to wear a shirt, t-shirt for let's say two days, 197 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,440 and put that in the kennel with your dog or cat. 198 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,680 Right. So it smells of you. 199 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:16,880 It smells of you. Yeah. And those are the good things. 200 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:24,000 Yeah. We also had people trying to transport cocaine in the kennel. 201 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:30,640 Oh, really? But they always get caught. 202 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,960 Yeah. You inspect the kennels or they are scanned? 203 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,040 When you take your dog out, when you take your dog out for a walk and you pick up the kennel 204 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:46,720 and the kennel is heavier than it should be, then there's something wrong. 205 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,440 Wow. And that happens. 206 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,480 Cocaine dog. But all the same happened with 207 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:02,720 ornamental fish. That's also not being shipped worldwide. 208 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:11,120 And you just said that dogs are easy travelers. In the animal world are difficult travelers. 209 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:19,440 What are the hardest things to get in the air? I think ornamental fish is hard to transport. 210 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:27,200 Really? Okay. Ornamental fish is packed in plastic containers or plastic bags. 211 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:36,960 And ample supply of oxygen for 48 hours after acceptance. So let's say you have a shipment 212 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:46,880 from Sri Lanka via Frankfurt into Dallas, for example, and it misses the connection in Frankfurt. 213 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,840 Uh-oh. Yeah. You're stuck with the shipment of ornamental fish. 214 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,440 Yeah. You can't just walk those. I mean, they have to go. 215 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:02,320 You can't walk those. And they have the supply of oxygen they have. The moment you open the bags, 216 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:10,480 the oxygen disappears. When you put new oxygen inside the plastic bags, then also the bacteria 217 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:16,080 that like oxygen start growing again. Right. Okay. Yeah. 218 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:24,000 So the acidity of the water goes up. And your fish might die. 219 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:30,480 And also the fish are, you know, there's probably a lot of fish per liter of water, right? I mean, 220 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:31,280 Indeed. Yeah. 221 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,200 Quite crowded. Especially when you have goldfish. 222 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,640 It's like a goldfish soup because they're also a little bit sedated. 223 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:47,360 Okay. So what most of the, let's say the big stations have like Frankfurt in Europe, 224 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:54,480 Frankfurt, Charles de Gaulle, Schiphol, we have certain importers that take over the fish. 225 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,680 Right. They collect the fish, 226 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:05,120 put in their own tanks for four to six days, reprepare them, and then they are sent to a 227 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:08,960 final destination. Wow. Just for missing one connection. 228 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:15,200 Yeah. Yeah. And that's also the reason why we say that all the animals arriving at Schiphol 229 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:22,320 must meet the EU entry conditions. They must also be allowed into the European Union so they can 230 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:30,000 be taken care of in case of any problems. Right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's why. 231 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:34,800 Yeah. That's probably a good idea. Now, if I think about animal transport, 232 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:41,280 I mean, you talked about the day old chicks, which apparently is most of the animals flying 233 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:51,040 and the beneficial insects, but I imagine zoo transports, right? Weird things on a plane. 234 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,520 What's some of the weirder things you've seen crossing your desk? 235 00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:02,560 Weird or nice? Weird, nice. What made an impression on you? 236 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:07,360 A lot. Especially the first shipments always make an impression on you. 237 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:18,160 The first shipment of giraffes from South Africa. But giraffes are, you know, five, 238 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:24,960 six meters tall. How do you put them in a plane? And that's the reason why I went to South Africa 239 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:32,880 for the first shipment. We had a dealer over there who wanted to use KLM for his shipments into Asia. 240 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:40,240 I said, OK, we can do it. We first want to see your facility and prepare the animals. And 241 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:52,240 what you already did there, they make enclosures that can hold three giraffes, three young giraffes, 242 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:58,080 so they get used to each other. OK. The graded traveling is also fit for three giraffes, 243 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:03,280 so they travel as a group, used to each other. That's a pretty good idea. 244 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:14,720 Yes. And he also collected the same heights. And that's the other point. The door of the 747 245 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:23,520 is three meters and eight centimeters high. OK. We always told them the crate can have a maximum 246 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:30,800 height of three meters, including pallet base. Yeah. Means that inside measurements are about 247 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:40,400 two meters 95, 96. Right. Half a giraffe, pretty much. Yeah, half a full-grown giraffe. And that's 248 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:47,040 the reason why we only accept young giraffes until three meters 20. That's the trick. Yeah. 249 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:52,720 Yeah. And of course, the natural position of a giraffe is not with the neck up, 250 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:59,920 but always a little bit banded. Yeah. Of course. So when it's three 20, it fits in a 295 crate 251 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,840 with the three of them. Oh, OK. And they support each other. 252 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:12,000 Yeah, that makes complete sense now, I understand. Because I always wonder, 253 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:17,040 I mean, a giraffe, how ever are you going to get them on a plane? Lie them horizontally or? 254 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:26,880 No, no, no. Only the younger ones. Yeah. So that's the bad part. When they, let's say, 255 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:32,480 they miss, they are posted for one kind of disease in quarantine, they might have to wait for another 256 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:38,080 eight weeks and then they become too big to travel by air. Ah, right. Yeah. And then they have to 257 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,480 everything again with a new flock. Oh, yeah. Because they have to get used to each other again 258 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:52,080 and get used to the enclosure. Yeah. Lie them at auctions, et cetera, et cetera. Oh, oh God. 259 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:59,440 Yeah. Does that happen? Yes. Oh. In South Africa, most of the wildlife that's being 260 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:05,920 exported is coming from auctions. OK. And they go to big transporters with their own quarantine 261 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:12,720 facilities that is approved by, let's say, the Chinese government or somebody or even in the 262 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:20,880 European Union. And then they can travel. Right. OK. Yeah. And so most of the zoo animals, they 263 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:27,920 come from, let's say, confined area, go to other confined area. Yeah. And that makes it easier for 264 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:35,680 zoo animals to travel. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty much a quarantine area, a zoo, right? 265 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,960 Yeah. I mean, there's no other animals of that species in a very large radius. So. Indeed. Yeah. 266 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,520 Should be. Yeah. Should be OK. Unless it's some disease that can jump to other species, of course. 267 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:53,520 Yeah. That's always a big risk. A couple of years ago, we had some tapirs from Brazil. 268 00:26:53,520 --> 00:27:00,960 Hmm. Cool. Arrived in South Africa and one of them died. Oh, dear. They did testing. It was 269 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:07,760 tuberculosis. Oh, whoops. How did that get past the test? They were not tested for tuberculosis 270 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:13,680 because it was not in the health certificate. Oh, oh, yeah. So we had to test our staff. 271 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:26,800 You don't want that. No. Yeah. But that's the risk of the job, I guess. Indeed. Yeah. And that's why 272 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:31,920 you always must be careful with transporting all kinds of animals. Uh huh. And that's also the 273 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:39,760 reason why, um, IATA, you have the IATA, life animal regulations. One of the most important thing 274 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:47,280 is that all the containers are nose and paw proof. Right. That also means lots of times that you 275 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:57,440 cannot get your fingers inside. That's also good. Yeah. Most of the time. And still, I almost lost 276 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:04,960 my eye. Oh. Because there was a crane bird and I was looking through a hole and the hole was not 277 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:11,920 covered inside with a fire and wire mesh. As it should be. Yes. But it saw my eyes glistening 278 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:21,040 and all my glasses luckily. Oh. Otherwise I was now one-eyed when I bend it. Would have been a 279 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:28,880 cool look for you, I'm sure. Yeah. A crane taking your eye out. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. 280 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:38,480 Yeah. And they say that animals have stress during transport, but. Yeah. 281 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:47,200 I don't see it happen that much. And stress is not that big of a problem. Chronic stress 282 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,240 is something else. A little bit stress. Everybody has stress. Sure. I'm also a little bit stressed 283 00:28:52,240 --> 00:29:06,960 now because I have to tell my story. But I had one large turtle from the Seychelles. Big one. 284 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,160 Oh yeah. Those are the giant Seychelles, giant tortoises or? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those are 285 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:18,240 the biggest ones in the world pretty much. It was a big crate. One meter by one meter by 140. 286 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:25,040 And I opened the crate and I had half an apple and I showed the apple and it started eating an apple. 287 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:36,240 Oh. Nice. He was pretty relaxed. Yeah. And I had the same, I had to fly a giant panda. 288 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:43,680 That's very cool. It's really cool. Yeah. First time so close to a giant panda. 289 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:51,360 Yeah. But the only thing it did on a nine hour flight was laying on his back and eating carrots. 290 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:59,200 And that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And for sure I know the zookeeper was more stressed than the 291 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:08,080 animal ever was. So the zookeeper flew with the panda as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We were with three 292 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:15,760 of us, two zookeepers and myself. And is that to have the animals have a familiar face or in case 293 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:25,760 of emergency, why are they? In case of emergency. But laying on your back. Eating carrots. Eating 294 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,320 carrots. Yeah. What's the emergency? It's more important that you are there when you have, 295 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:42,320 when you're transporting horses or even rhinos. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. Rhinos, they sometimes just 296 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:49,120 lay down and it looks like they give up. Okay. And that's when you have to be there and just 297 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:57,920 make sure that they start moving a little bit up and down, back and forth. Just to stay a little 298 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:05,200 bit in condition. So what happens? They just give up and they lie down and that's obviously- 299 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:11,840 Same with the horse. When the horse are really stressed, you see the gum on the teeth gets black 300 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:20,960 and then yeah, then you lose them. Really? Wow. That's severe stress. Yeah. But it happens once 301 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:32,880 every 10,000 horses. You have a horse that just gives up, loses. That is a hardly significant 302 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:40,080 number. Yeah. And so is there always somebody with the horse when they're flying horses as well? 303 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:45,600 When the horses fly, there's always at least one attendant with them on every airline. 304 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:53,120 That's also written in the IATLR and that's the law in most of the countries. So you have to stick 305 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:58,800 to it. So if you fly several horses, there's one attendant in the middle that they scare of all those 306 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:04,320 horses. At least one. All right. Making sure they drink at a certain time, make sure they eat, 307 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:11,120 they don't have colic, et cetera, et cetera. Right. And things like, I mean, I remember when 308 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:18,960 the Dolphinarium in the Netherlands was shipping a killer whale to the US. Things like that must 309 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,880 be very difficult, right? I mean, yes, they are so difficult that KLM says we don't transport them. 310 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:32,240 Oh, okay. That had to do with the publicity around it. But I know the airline that transported 311 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:40,560 it, one to the Canary Islands. And that went really well. But nobody knew where it flew. 312 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:48,080 No, okay. So they keep that a secret. Yeah. Yeah. They just give you some airframe, 313 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,560 they say it will fly on let's say March 15th and then it flies on February 2nd. 314 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:59,280 Okay. So nobody's aware of it because of all the bad publicity. 315 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:04,880 So people are protesting this kind of transport? Oh, yes. Oh. 316 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,080 That's also the reason why lots of airlines stopped with transporting laboratory animals. 317 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:19,360 Oh yeah. Yeah. We already stopped in 1996, I guess. And I think Air France recently stopped 318 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:25,520 with monkeys. Monkeys. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And there are still a lot of airlines that say they 319 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:32,000 don't transport them, but they transport them. Oh. There's no issue. Let's not name any names here. 320 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:39,200 No, no. I don't know. But they say we stopped with laboratory animals, but they still ship lab rats 321 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:47,120 and lab mice. Okay. Those should be okay to fly, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine the monkeys, 322 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,880 but... The monkeys, it's a little bit emotional, but they're still, 323 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:57,120 I think they are still needed for some kind of research. Sure. And not for your makeup. 324 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:04,320 No. Let's say for life saving research, they have some value. Yeah. Yeah. Same with beagles. 325 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:10,640 They also have some value. Yeah. Yeah. Well, beagles are used because they are genetically 326 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,800 equivalent to like two and a half dogs, I think the whole race. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. They're 327 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:20,480 genetically so similar. Yeah. It's remarkable. That's why they always pick beagles. Yeah. 328 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,720 The bad thing with laboratory animals is that there's so much bad publicity around it that 329 00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:34,000 everybody believes it. I also speak with people within the industry and they say all the monkeys 330 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:43,200 that we have are kept in family groups. Yeah. They have televisions. Their favorite programs 331 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:52,000 are on the scurvy channel. And the moment there is a snake visible, which spits them off because 332 00:34:52,000 --> 00:35:01,360 you know the whole colony will go berserk. The beagles have playtime. So it's not all that bad. 333 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:08,400 And maybe you might want to look for somebody who can talk to you about this in your podcast. 334 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,400 That would be nice if we're looking for any animal professionals. So yeah. 335 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:18,640 Just the way they treat laboratory animals. Yeah. That's a very good suggestion. Thanks. Yeah. 336 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:25,280 I will try to find somebody. Yeah. I mean, I know. I mean, I've done a little bit of work in 337 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:31,680 laboratories myself, of course. Yeah. You know, the people who take care of them get quite attached 338 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:37,760 and try to do their best to make their life as good as they can. It's a live animal and 339 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:43,200 then you need to respect live animals. And that's also the reason why I think it's important that 340 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,080 you, when you ship animals, that you always have to look at the ayatollah on how to ship them. 341 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,120 Because we have a lot of professionals in the LAPB and surrounding the LAPB 342 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,080 that really know a lot about animal welfare and how to ship animals. 343 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,400 Like, yeah. And if you cannot ship them, don't do it. 344 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:10,160 What is an animal you cannot ship? Bats. 345 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,560 Bats. Really? Okay. Because of disease risk or? 346 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,800 No. How do you feed them? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, insectivorous. 347 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,080 Yeah. They need to fly to get something. So how do you... 348 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:27,680 Yeah. So insectivorous bats, at least, right? I mean, the fruitiferous ones. 349 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:35,280 Fruit bats are easy. Okay. Okay. And what also are difficult to transport, 350 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,560 to my opinion, are hummingbirds. Hummingbirds? 351 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:44,480 Yeah. Why is that? Why are they difficult? They have a higher metabolism. They have to 352 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,960 keep on eating and drinking the whole journey. Yeah. 353 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:58,720 So you have to make enclosures with lighting. Temperature needs to be okay. And you need a lot 354 00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:06,800 of food during the flight. And we have a 12-hour flight, cutoff time, and except for the six hour 355 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:12,800 before flight. So you need at least 20 hours of food with them. And you have to make sure... 356 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:13,360 That's a lot of money. Yeah. 357 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,800 ...you have to make sure the food does not go bad in the meantime. And they keep on flying, 358 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,800 et cetera, et cetera. So for me, it's difficult and I'm not a fly. 359 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,160 Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've done it in the past. 360 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:34,160 And I was always happy that they all survived. Yeah. No, I can imagine. That's a very difficult 361 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:39,440 one. There's this group in California that does studies on hummingbirds at low pressure, 362 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,560 at low air pressures. But then they make them fly at low air pressure. And then at a certain air 363 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,400 pressure, you just see them fall out of the sky because they cannot maintain the metabolism. 364 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,000 And it might also happen in flight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 365 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,080 Stressing them out quite a bit. That might be a reason why they 366 00:37:54,080 --> 00:38:01,600 have a low survival rate when you don't pay attention to all the things needed for transport. 367 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:07,280 Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Animal transport is a very specialized business because you need to know 368 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:14,400 about so many different animals needs. And I know you love animals because you can hear the parrot 369 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,880 in the back sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Parrots, my turtles, my dogs. 370 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:30,480 You live animals pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. You had one more. You mentioned to me koalas and lions. 371 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:36,720 Yeah. What happened there? Lions are always nice. 372 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,480 Lions are also easy travelers. Lots of mistakes you make is that the crate is too big so they 373 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:51,280 can turn around. Best for a lion and for all big felines is they just can lay down and stand up 374 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,360 and not turn around. So you always know where the head is. Okay. That's what- 375 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:03,600 My nicest shipment of lions were white lion cubs. 376 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:15,760 Arriving from Johannesburg on the freighter of Martinair. And I already saw pictures of them 377 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,560 out of the crate in the cockpit. Oh. 378 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:27,120 And then I had to bring it to Tokyo. And the nice part was that indeed they were still depending 379 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:38,080 on milk. So at 30,000 feet I had to give them milk and cuddles. And not only me but the whole 380 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,720 flight crew was involved in feeding those animals. I can imagine. Yeah. 381 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:49,200 I could just lay back and just sit there and watch them feeding the animals. 382 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,640 That must be fantastic. I mean- Yeah. Those were really nice to do. Yeah. 383 00:39:53,600 --> 00:40:04,240 Those are the perks of the job. Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was also nice to do with the spray toads. 384 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:13,680 Spray toads? Yeah. I forgot the name. It was Kenasha spray toads. And they had to go to Tanzania. 385 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:26,640 They were bred in New York at the Bronx Zoo. Right. And they breed 500 every six months. 386 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:35,680 Okay. And they bring the whole population back to the waterfall they originated from. 387 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:42,640 Oh right. Those spray toads. Yeah. They sit under the waterfall and they communicate by movement. 388 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:50,000 Right. Yeah. And the waterfall was completely dried up. But there was still some, they had some 389 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,040 animals left in the Bronx Zoo and another zoo in the United States. I started breeding them, 390 00:40:55,040 --> 00:41:04,480 installed big pumps on the feet of the original waterfall. Yeah. Remade the waterfall. Wow. And 391 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:10,960 then the environment was good enough to reintroduce them. That is- I know the first ones, 392 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:18,560 we only have a transit time of one hour at Schiphol. So I arranged them just not as cargo, 393 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:28,320 but as extra luggage. Oh. And even Dutch customs agreed to do it like that. So I think it could 394 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:34,960 get them on board faster, right? That way. Yeah. They sent people to the aircraft, checked them, 395 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:43,120 and then it went on. Yeah. Those are amazing little toads. Yeah. Yeah. Kenasha spray toads. 396 00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:49,120 That's the ones. Yeah. Yeah. Their environment is so loud that they wave at each other, right? 397 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:56,160 Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Oh, that's nice. So we saved the species. Yeah. Well, 398 00:41:56,160 --> 00:42:01,040 animal transport is important. I mean- Oh yeah. Yeah. Not only for your food production, 399 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:08,560 but also for your biodiversity and education. Yeah. Fantastic. I mean, I know you have so many 400 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:16,400 more adventures with the animals, but this was already fantastic. And thanks for giving us a 401 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,840 little bit of a view behind the scenes because we only know about dogs and cats as normal mortals, 402 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,160 but yeah, to know that there's so much flying through the air at any one time. 403 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:32,160 Thanks for inviting me. Yeah. And if people want to know more about you and what you do, 404 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:38,000 where do they go? The best thing they can do is go to the website of the ATA, 405 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:46,160 Animal Transportation Association. Lots of people I used to work with are a member of the ATA. 406 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:53,040 And if you have questions about shipping animals or any questions, go to the website and there's a 407 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:59,360 special form you can fill in for your questions. Oh, perfect. Perfect. Or find me at LinkedIn 408 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:06,640 and maybe I can answer your question. Awesome. And AYATA as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. And there's 409 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:14,240 another one where you want to ship your dog or cats, go to the website from IPATA, IPATA.org. 410 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:24,800 Pet Association Transportation Association. Okay. And they can give you advice on how to 411 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:30,480 transport your dog. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Raymond, thank you very much. 412 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,560 You're welcome. Thanks for all the stories and I'll see you soon. 413 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,640 I hope so. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.