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Today we have at the zoologists' campfire a masters of science in evolution ecology and

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biodiversity if I say so correctly and who is about to start his PhD it is Rool Wouters

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a fellow Dutchman but will be speaking English today and he despite being very early in his

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career he has already traveled the world visited five continents doing fieldwork everywhere

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chasing venomous animals from snakes down to mosquitoes and has just racked up an incredibly

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impressive first part of his career and we're very much looking forward to how that continues

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in your PhD in Prague is that right Rool?

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That's definitely right although today we will not talk about mosquitoes they are exciting

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but they're not that exciting compared to all the snake work I did and you get in way

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more weird situations when you do snake stuff than when you work on mosquitoes so yeah.

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Good.

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Yeah I've been incredibly grateful during my studies and also beyond the scope of my

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studies but part of my academic life in the sense I have been lucky to travel indeed to

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a lot of different places from tropical systems to desert systems also to beautiful European

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systems.

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Yeah is that something you really go for fieldwork that what drives you?

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Well I always liked it definitely I never could have been budgeted looking back at the

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past eight years of studying here in the Netherlands I would be so well traveled but yeah from

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one thing comes the other and it's how it goes and when people know that you are a hardworking

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tropical field biologist and people tend to ask you for a second or third time so that's

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how I ended up in all these fun projects and fun places and definitely will continue that

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during my PhD over the next four or five years.

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Awesome so what was one of your favorite places to visit?

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Well definitely one of the nice places I visited was actually last April in 2023 when I was

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traveling in Borneo I was an instructor of the Natura Alis by the British Centre field

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course and we went I actually after the course ended I traveled alone for another week and

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then I went to Tawa Hills National Park which is in the south Sabah which is the Malaysian

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part of Borneo this border in Kalimantan the Indonesian part of Borneo and it's a very

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non-touristic area and they have a national park there which hardly anybody visits and

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it's super special to be all on your own literally all on your own in the middle of a forest

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and it's such a beautiful forest it's quite a high altitude forest very wet, lot of rain

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a bit haily, bit mountainous and the things you see is just incredible especially when

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you're alone when you're quiet early in the morning I remember bathing in the river and

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some gibbons were checking me out in the trees and they were just as curious in what I was

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doing there then I was curious in what they were doing there so that's definitely one

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of the nice places I visited and recently I came back from a trip in Montenegro here

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in Europe and that also really and I was also really impressed by Montenegro the amount

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of remote and pristine forest they still have I never imagined that we still in Europe have

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this beautiful beautiful regions of nature that are also very undiscovered where hardly

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any people went and we did a biodiversity inventory of a specific area that's under

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threat of development but it's a very difficult to enter a canyon and hardly ever there's

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no tourism at all there's just some locals that go fishing there but and also the it

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always feels tropical actually it's not tropical but like it has the same challenges as you

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experience in tropical systems that we still have that in Europe yeah I was really amazed

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by it and I and I also felt a little bit guilty or in a sense from like I should have I should

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have traveled more in Europe instead of going to all these exotic places because they have

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beautiful places in Europe of course and so with that also where you had and some adventures

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in the field or what was that yeah definitely but I wanted to I wanted to start with another

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adventure which is actually an adventure very close to home which is actually in Netherlands

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so together with with my buddy Jorrit van Tiel we have a project on on the variation

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of venom in European adders and and and as a case study we take we take the the Dutch

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the Dutch populations of European adders because they are extremely isolated and we are interested

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in the ecology of the venom so how does the venom vary between these populations in the

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Netherlands between these isolated populations and and are there ecological factors that

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we can link to them so that's a bit the scope of the project right that's that we've been

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started in 2019 with a little grant for that and and we've been doing a lot of field work

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in the Netherlands which is super interesting because you you get to visit these very special

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highly protected areas where people can walk through on the on the on the on the main paths

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obviously but you hardly ever have the chance to to really go off-roads and going more deep

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into these areas and they are some of the very vulnerable heathland systems that we

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have that are very much under threat by by nitrogen depositioning that we have now in

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the Netherlands but it's also home of the European adder yeah yeah and and that brings

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me to to the first so the Netherlands you have to imagine is a very well organized country

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which means you also need like a package of permits when I go in the field so I'm right

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my backpack always has such a a thick pile of permits and obviously we always go with

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permits otherwise we don't do it and I speak to some fellow colleagues who work on other

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species and and they and they never ever ever ever ever have been checked by authorities

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but I have been checked already in multiple times when I'm in the really yes yes so I'm

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I'm always the the unlucky or lucky guy why I permit so it's not a problem but we have

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one very very funny situation which was last year in 2022 and you go in the summer I imagine

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right you go when when it's yeah we go in in in because they hibernate in in in in in

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in winter so the season mostly starts end of February beginning of March and then all

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the way till end of September beginning of October and it's a kind of a free a free time

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voluntary project so I go whenever I have time and I try to schedule once a month a

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field trip and then I mostly join local volunteers who are monitoring the situation for for the

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for the working group at a research in Netherlands so I'm I'm mostly I hardly ever go alone

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in the fields I mostly join a lot of local volunteers who know the area or know the adders

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in the area some some of these people have been working there for over 30 to 35 years

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so they have extensive knowledge and they also know the the forest managers so we can

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always let us let them know that we're in the fields and they don't have to be very

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disturbed by us however we were last year in 2022 we were in a system in in in the area

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of stop or switch is a very small and notorious place very religious place in the Bible belt

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it's the art of the Bible belt yes yeah but they also have a beautiful system with a lot

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of unique wildlife including many rare bird species last time I was there which was a

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few weeks ago I saw fresh traces of wolves so it's a it's a very very nice wild area

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and it's also home to a very nice population of others and so we were I was in that area

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with the Renee who which is a volunteer and we always carry this this liquid nitrogen

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tank with us it looks a bit like a mushroom shaped tank and that's restored of venom so

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so we can remain remain remain the venom intact so it can be used for functional tests and

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whatnot so mostly we just dump the nitrogen tank at the at the main path because it's

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too well heavy and and and doesn't make sense to carry it through the heat and and then

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we look for others we take the venom and I bring the venom to the tank right we were

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there on a I think it was a Friday or a Saturday and it was very busy in the area a lot of

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people hiking and and hiking their dogs and just a very busy area and then all of a sudden

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we were a few hundred meters from the main path in the field and then all of a sudden

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we we are a motorcycle crossing through the area and then it's not that you're not allowed

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to drive to drive a motorcycle in that area it's really strictly prohibited but it was

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but it was the police okay yes and he whistled and well we got the cue so we we walked to

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the main path and we went to him and it was a very northeastern person very strict very

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strict not not a smile not a joke okay and he he got yeah he got a report from people

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in the area that there was drugs waste in dumped in the forest okay yeah but the moment

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he saw us and he saw our our shirts with volunteers and he immediately realized that we were not

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there were not dumped waste and we explained situation what we were doing there he did

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not even ask he did not even ask asked for for for our permits I don't think he realized

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that we needed them because it's not his jurisdiction but he he he kept being very strict and he

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was also a bit emotional because it just came from a a death the crash so he was really

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fed fed up that he had to come all the way into the forest with his motorcycle for this

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this rubbish so they thought the people walked by thought your your liquid nitrogen tank

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was something like something like or something yes yes yes yes yes it was drug waste which

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is very normal in netherlands especially in these rural areas yeah it's a problem we are

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we are ecstasy producers number one so there is a little drug waste illegally dumped so

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i am i understand the the confusion and but but it was uh yeah and and and ripney who

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really knows the local uh scientists quite well oh sorry local forest managers quite

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well he was not very happy uh that uh that they that he didn't call the forest manager

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in the first place before we're entering the forest to ask like uh we got we got a report

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from this and that and and then and then also the speed the speed which with which he drove

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through through the through through the forest was just absolutely uh anyways but he left

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after after a quick talk uh he wasn't very interested he just uh he was just happy there

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wasn't a lot of work he he left again yeah but that's uh i mean what can you do with

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a motorcycle if there's drugs waste you cannot take it with you i mean that's that's a bit

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silly right no i think he was just going to check out the situation but it was a bit of

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a weird uh weird situation um and yeah in a way it was also kind of a funny experience

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uh with the authorities here in netherlands yeah uh but since then i have uh i have put

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on a label on the liquid nitrogen tank with the scientific research for any questions

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uh my phone number so uh yeah so that yes that kind of solved the problem immediately

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yes yeah yeah right you shouldn't leave stuff yeah uh wow i don't know i i i think i know

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the bottle you you're talking about it looks it's a weird really big mushroom shaped weird

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thing i could imagine people think this is an alien ship or uh something from a chemical

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lab which it is yeah i mean it's yeah yeah it is it is yeah it looks very very out of

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place in the forest i understand yeah cool yeah that was uh that was the police on the

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motorcycle yeah and then uh in 2019 just very quickly to add my experience with authorities

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in 2019 i was traveling with yori in arizona we were doing field work from that goods lab

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uh in uh in chirugawa desert and we were catching rail snakes um and oh and then we were where

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is that desert sorry sorry where where it's a chirugawa desert is the south of arizona

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it's close to the mexican border so now uh and it's a very beautiful area also a lot

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of reptile diversity a lot of bird diversity it's just a very interesting area and this

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desert with the big cacti or is it more yuccas or no it's uh it's actually a quite a mountainous

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area so you have um you have desert at the bottom but then you have a lot of you have

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a mountain range and you get the city's forest up the top a pile yeah mixed forest also finds

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but so it's like a nice gradient and that's also why you have these rock specialists on

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the top uh like rock rail snakes and tiger rail snakes where you're going more south

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you get your diamondback rail snakes whatnot so you have a lot of the different species

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of rail snakes there and we were we had to collect a few rail snakes for uh for an ongoing

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study and uh that's it and we were with students and students of the of matt goods lab in the

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field but matt wasn't there and uh we didn't have a permit on paper we had a permit with

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matt's group and matt said just mention my name they know they know who i am and then

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you will be fine and of course we were stopped again uh and uh and that's the that's even

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that's a different joke than uh than the netherlands in netherlands you can you can explain and

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you can laugh a bit you can make a joke but in the states i felt really uh impressed by

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uh by this intimidating isn't it yes yes yes it was all it was dark and we weren't expecting

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it we're in the middle of nowhere and then all of a sudden you have a car behind your

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back who uh who starts uh starts flashing his alarm anyways yeah so but he made a big

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problem of us not having the uh permits on paper and and in the end uh i will not mention

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any names but in the end uh we found out matt told us that it was a formerly rejected pc

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student who became an uh officer so he had a bit of personal beef with matt and uh yes

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yes so it was so he made us he made us have he gave us a very hard time uh but he did it

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probably on purpose because after he did his official thing and he gave us an official

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warning no no no uh no actual money was involved but just an official warning uh then we had

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a lovely chat about reptile conservation in the area yeah and uh we spoke we spoke to

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him about certain species so in the end it was all fine but he gave us a really hard

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time and we were really impressed and then later uh and later when we told matt when

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we came back uh he said oh yeah i know this guy so that was my um my experience with authority

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which also kind of shifts me to my next story i wanted to tell maybe we can go there no

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carry on carry on what part of the world are we going to now as yeah we're going to bolivia

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now which is uh maybe the most impressive trip i've made and i went there in 2016 i

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was 19 years old at that time so it was really uh for me was the first time out of europe

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and immediately to a very challenging country as bolivia but our main our main goal was

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to uh to uh go and look for um for anacondas which uh which were very well studied in that

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specific area so we wanted to join uh with a group to uh to find them and and the people

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in the area they are studying them and um yeah they have you have all three species

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or at least three species there in that region you have uh the yellow anaconda you have the

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green anaconda you also have the bolivian or beanie anaconda in that area oh i didn't

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know that third species that's very interesting yeah it's it's it's been described by that

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by that group actually it's uh unectus beanieensis which is uh quite an it looks like a green

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anaconda or it looks actually a bit like an ivory between green and yellow anaconda and

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there is also some suggestions that it might have been a a speciation event for hybridization

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um but it's very uh located to the areas around the beanie river which is where we were um

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and we found it also it's it's a bit different it's a has some lighter parts uh compared

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to green anaconda you know but even if i look at the even if i look at the photos to myself

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after all these years i find it hard to distinguish but the people the the experts in the area

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told us it was a beanie anaconda so i believe them all right um but to get there it was

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quite challenging so we we arrived i was with my my my my friends uh of flake and yip who

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are both well were both biology students now both biologists and uh we we we arrived in

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la past which is the capital city of uh of bolivia but it's uh that's andy's that's

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four and a half kilometers height altitude and we had to go to the lowland forests um

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near the peruvian border uh and uh well you could take a plane when we thought that was

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boring and now you can't take a plane anymore because in covid the little plane company

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that flew that went bankrupt so now there's no uh no plane travel anymore okay um um but

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but we you can take a bus but we also thought that was boring you could also take a boat

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and almost no one does that because it takes three days uh through through the heart of

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marina national park which is uh um um yeah a very nice beautiful and huge um lowland

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amazon rainforest but we did that and we went with the guide uh who uh who bring us in three

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days to uh to the destination we had to be and um um for us to enter marina national

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park you have to normally pay a fee um to the navy so that's interesting about bolivia

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they don't have a sea but they have a very active navy because they still have the hope

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that once they conquer back or get back to sea that at least they have a very good navy

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so they have one of the best navy for naval forces in south america actually and every

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little village in bolivia every little even jungle village have a very active marine base

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and a lot of young people join in the navy um so we we had a we had to pay a fee to the

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navy for entering the national park yeah and and that was in a way very funny because um

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since we were not we were not really tourists because we were there with purpose so our

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our guide was like no i'm going to put you in the books as volunteers then you don't

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have to pay a fee uh because you're you're doing important work here and uh and then

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we can uh then we can go on but the navy the navy uh they they didn't uh they didn't believe

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the story they thought we were tourists and we were just going to have fun in the area

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and i i don't blame them because we in a sense in a sense we were we were westerners that

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were visiting an area so of course i mean it's it's a couple of bucks we wouldn't have

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mind but then uh he came up with a solution we had we could pay one third of the price

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and he would put us in the books as volunteer

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yes so we bribed we bribed the bolivian navy okay

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don't let them hear you say that yeah yeah yeah well well and yeah it's what it is just

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it's what happens in these kind of in these kind of situations especially so remote but

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we we did not expect and that's actually where i'm going it's uh might be the most impressive

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and sad story that i have encountered during field work is that we would we would actually

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need the navy just two days later we were um we were going um upstream the river and

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no down downstream the river downstream river and um after a day or two we saw a lot of

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black had been soldiers uh in the middle of the river and an incredibly uh uh awful smell

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and uh our boat our boat driver said um could be an animal that's deceased and and floating

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on the river but be prepared it could also be it wouldn't be the first time if we find

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if you found a human uh a human body in the river and upon arrival yeah we saw uh indeed

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it was a it was a girl that that uh that drowned and drowned from the village yeah drowned from

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the village a day a day ahead of us and uh they knew because they they had seen the signs

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that she was missing um right but she uh yeah and and yeah she was at least like five or

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six days uh uh uh deceased because she was already floating and that was a really awful

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look um yes and yeah that's something you don't expect when you're in such a romantic

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place looking for wildlife seeing parrots fly over and then all of a sudden you find

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a a dead girl very young still um but it's and but also makes you realize that you're

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a part of a very very tough system and um yeah in in that in those regions especially

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Bolivia is a very poor country and a lot of these people are dependent on the river for

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fishing for washing the children washing the river they play in the river but they can't

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swim because they never learned to swim so the current the current takes them and sometimes

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yeah they drown and uh wow yeah that's where he says in this case it happened the call

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the navy at that point to uh to warn them yeah so so uh so there was a satellite phone

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on board and they uh they they called the navy and uh to collect to collect her body

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so uh because yeah we we we couldn't take her it was just uh we had we had another night

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and they'd go and it was uh it was so extremely smelly uh and we were with a very small boat

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and uh a very slow boat like a canoe with a motor and and uh um so we uh we called the

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navy and the navy went to uh collect her with a motorboat and they brought her back to the

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village she came from oh wow yeah that's that's that's another side of the it's not a fun

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story but it's a very story that made a lot of impression yeah i can imagine and and did

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you eventually also go to the village where she came from yes we went to the village yes

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yes uh we we we obviously we didn't have any contact with uh with her family whatnot because

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yeah it's not that we saw we saw indeed the the especially the the poorest part of the

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the village that lived on the river so we yeah you could imagine how the situation happened and

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uh yeah that was quite sad so wow for your first trip to to outside yes that is quite

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impressive yes but oh yeah it also and that's also kind of beauty of it makes you realize that you

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are we we often think as as people that we are uh we own the nature we own the world but then in

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these when you are in these systems uh you realize it no it's not true you uh you you are just part

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of a system and yeah yeah you can be taken by it in a minute without without you realizing so

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yeah i think it's also that's also the beauty in a way like it's we still have these remote parts

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in the world and it's incredibly important i think and um but yeah that was uh that was a

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tough one to swallow and i yeah so uh that made a lot it stick with me for a few days and then

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yeah obviously we found we found the anacondas and we found a lot of all the wildlife so it kind of

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tweaks your attention a bit but yeah i've been looking looking back and thinking back about it

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for for yeah for many years even even now again i thought this we're preparing this podcast i

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thought yeah this is a it is a story that actually i should i should tell um because yeah such an

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impression and it's something you don't expect but something that can happen and and it's weird

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that in that system i don't know if i would react if i would find somebody deceased in the streets

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of of my of my town here that would maybe make a very different impression on me than when you

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find somebody in a in a system where where life and death are are such a normal part of uh of the

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natural dynamics and and it's also yeah makes you kind of feel exposed to to the dangers of nature

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right i mean to see yeah exactly it can actually take a life like that yeah and you're you're

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enjoying it and and you're almost a tourist uh wow yeah i can see and especially if you were 19 at

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the time yes that's yeah yeah yeah we were very very inexperienced also it was uh that was the

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word i was the worst prepared for for a trip effort and that that's with broken boots and

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whatnot and well anyways but we learned we learned from that and it was you found the anacondas

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in the end yeah yeah we found how was that how was that was that at least a high to balance the

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low yeah definitely yeah yeah we were also looking off to see uh a jagarundi and an

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ocelot so two felines which is quite rare to see yeah uh and a giant giant ant eater and a lot of

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other wildlife so kind of definitely wait wait out but um now the anacondas was was very very cool it

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was in a wetland area very um wet literally very wet area it's kind of a um an area that's linking

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to the pantanal region in brazil so it borders that that corner with peru brazil and it's also

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an area that's in in the rainy season is completely wet and now it was in the dry season so it was

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more like a swampy walk through it but you were some at some points you were still here in the

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water so it sounds very convenient wow quite quite difficult also spotting them because they are uh

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you only see a face on the surface uh-huh um but yeah you're never worried i mean i i imagine

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people listening to this who are think okay you're 19 your first time i said if you're up you're up

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to your neck in the water when you know they're anacondas i mean i can imagine some people

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freaking out just at the idea of that right so is that it didn't worry you at all no no no that was

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uh that's that's the part of who i uh i was who i wanted to be and who i became i guess so

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no i was and especially because you're surrounded by people who have done this a million times

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and so it's not uh right there i'm not there on my own and we were there with uh with a decent

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group of people who have who had a lot of experience so i felt very comfortable with their

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expertise and that's actually how it always goes still now when you go to areas you always work

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together with local scientists local experts yeah because then that makes sense they know the area

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they know the dangers so and then yeah being reminded of uh you know the fragility of life

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you were not not worried about your own i'm just just curious um you go everywhere and and i'm sure

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for your phd you will go chasing geckos all around the world again um is there a particular animal

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or particular place you still want to see that's really high on your list what's the top of your

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of your list of things to see um yeah everywhere i guess but no that's but uh i know um i i have

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been uh i haven't been to central africa and i really uh um so for me one special so i was

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in borneo last year and also a few years ago and and i saw wild orangutans and uh for me that's

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actually and i had to cry when i saw them so for me that was a really special moment because

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we share 96 of our dna with these primates um we uh we we we've cut down 40 percent

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borneo for palm oil plantations yeah and horrible and i've been there too it's

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staggering to see what it turned into yeah and uh and and we were actually on a field center with

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with the students from line university here um which which particularly studied the impact of

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palm oil plantations on on wildlife so we were very close to monoculture kilometers of monoculture of

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of palm oil and we were in one of the last pieces of secondary forest so it's highly disturbed

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forest all the big dipter carb trees had been cut out and it was really surrounded all all

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around by palm oil plantation so we were in a last resort uh for um for wildlife so very high density

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of big mammals a lot of birds reptiles um a lot of everything actually but also a lot of orangutans

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uh higher density than actually is natural so you get all these weird behaviors and a lot of uh

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fights between orangutans which normally you know cure yeah um but

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but yeah we were lucky enough to see them and um and for me it's a very special moment when you

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look into the eyes of an animal that's that you share 90 of your dna with and realizing that

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you're also causing the end of the world for them and for them a lot sooner than for us i guess

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and i'm yeah i'm i would be really uh it would be really special to uh to once encounter uh the

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other apes the african apes that are even closer to us the gorilla the chimpanzees the bonobos

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and i don't know why i have this i have decided not to travel anymore without a purpose so if if

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i can do field work in the area and we encounter them so be it uh i'm i'm not planning on visiting

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them as a tourist because i think yeah i travel enough and it's not worth it to uh to make useless

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trips but that would be very special if i if i could have a chance before they perish to see the

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great apes yeah that that would be yeah i think people don't understand how small these

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remnants of forests are if you if you go i also went through to borneo here five hours on the boat

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just passing industry and pond plantations after pond plantation and then you come to this tiny

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you know five by five kilometer bit of forest that's it that's what you you know that that's all

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there is and it's just shocking really you think of borneo as as the island jungle field island but

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oh oh it's not anymore and no nice yeah now i actually see a lot of similarities between uh

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our dutch agriculture agriculture and the bornean system is it just monocultured with ditches

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and yeah it looks it looks tropical because palm oil trees are four five six meters high and they

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look they feel tropical they are tropical but it's not that different from a grass meadow in the

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netherlands uh yeah that that separates nature and makes it makes it creates isolated patches of

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nature with isolated populations and and all the problems that come with it so yeah for me it was

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quite quite shocking also realizing that actually most of that palm oil produced in borneo is coming

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to the rotterdam harbor for processing so we have we are also in that way related to borneo

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yeah in the deforestation i guess as dutch people yeah but it's it's a it's a very difficult

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situation of course you know because uh we also need to feed a lot of people palm oil is highly

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efficient so it's yeah well i hope as as we are looking in the netherlands to buy biodiversity

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inclusive farming i hope that's something uh that that would be be the future for borneo as well to

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create bio biodiverse biodiversity ecological friendly farming to see if we can at least

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maintain and manage what we have in a way but yeah that's uh that's it's not always uh it's

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it's mostly romantic being in the field you you visit these beautiful and amazing places

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but in some cases uh you also work also with the mosquitoes you work in very dirty areas

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it on trash trash bins uh in rural areas in urban areas uh so it's it's it is romantic but very

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often it's uh it's also very um confronting in a way what a mess are we making on the world

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well and that's why we want to hear from uh people from the field like you to uh to hear what it's

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like to actually be a biologist and go to all these places and have some adventures and have some

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um yeah ups and downs thanks a lot to rule for for coming and uh telling your stories and i think

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we'll have more stories from you in the future by the sound of it well that's i'm looking forward

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to the next time my my next trip will be panama for my phd uh field work yeah we're chasing lizards

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in very remote areas so uh next stories are already uh on the blast yeah fantastic well thank you very

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much for coming on and good luck with the phd thanks for your invitation bye bye